13 year old admitted to medical school

[vonfirmath]

5 hours ago, Catwoman said:

Personally, I feel sorry for the kid. 

Maybe that’s not a popular opinion, but that kid hasn’t had a normal childhood, and I am not convinced that her parents haven’t pushed her into all of this. Of course she seems happy — for now. She doesn’t know any better. 

I say this as the mom of a kid who could have easily done what this girl is doing, but my dh and I decided that a normal life was far more important than having multiple degrees by the time he was 18. And my opinion is also colored by my own personal childhood experience with my school accelerating me into a 6th grade classroom when I should have been in the first grade. My parents saw that I was miserable (I still remember that I was the only kid whose feet didn’t touch the floor under my desk,) and insisted that I be placed back in the first grade with my same-aged peers, and it was the best decision they could have made. Sure, I was bored with the schoolwork, but I had friends instead of feeling like I was the class pet. 

That 13yo kid isn’t going to have a normal social life, because she will be far too young to attend college parties until years after she has already graduated. And med school? At her age? Were her parents big Doogie Howser fans or something?

I’m sorry if I have offended anyone, but the girl sounds like she’s a bright kid who doesn’t really know what she wants to do with her life yet — and she shouldn’t have to make decisions like that at her age. Why is there such a rush for this child to become a doctor? Why not let her be a regular kid, and let her do things on a less ridiculously accelerated timeline? She only gets to be a child once.

This sounds a little similar to my husband

He left public school in 7th grade to enter university. (Robinson program at the University of Washington) -- his fellow students didn't even seem to realize he was so much younger than him (He tells me about the girl flirting with him until he had to tell her his age and that he couldn't go to bars, etc. -- he was tall for his age and evidently mature enough to fool other college students, at least) But due to same immaturity lost his way and didn't ACTUALLY graduate until shortly after I met him (when he was 23 or so)

 

He was adamantly against our son doing anything of the sort. He missed his same age peers.  Me -- who DID not go to college early even though I had an invitation from Duke to at least attend some classes (my parents could not afford even for me to attend classes at the local college when many of my classmates were) Also did not feel I had same age peers. So I know that "taking the other road" and staying in school does not lead to fixing the problem either. My peers (what peers I had) were through church, not school. And had nothing to do with academics.

 

And we even denied a single grade skip from K to 2nd when requested (which I do not regret. Though I do sometimes wonder if we would have different challenges or the same if we'd done that)  

 

ETA again: And being the "Right age" and having done things "Traditionally" did not prevent ME from making some of the same mistakes in college. My husband managed to finish his bachelor's and go back for a Masters. All I have is an associates degree (also completed "out of time order")

Edited July 25, 2022 by vonfirmath

[Laura Corin]

6 hours ago, Frances said:

 It does seem like the program is taking a pretty big risk admitting someone so young and with so little life experience. Given the extreme lack of adequate medical school slots in the US, I agree that there is no need to give one to someone who is so young. 

In the UK, in addition to stellar grades, successful applicants have to have undertaken extensive medical/hospital/hospice/social care volunteering or shadowing, to show their seriousness and make sure they understand what they are getting into. That would typically start from about age 16.

[Corraleno]

1 hour ago, Catwoman said:

 

Something seemed very wrong as soon as I opened this thread and read the original article, but the story keep getting worse. 

Yeah, something about it just seemed off, especially the part where she instantly flipped a switch from "it's been my lifelong dream to be an engineer at NASA" to "As soon as I took my first bio class I knew I was meant to be a doctor."  Then I found another interview where she tells a totally different story, claiming she changed her plans as soon as she took her first engineering class at ASU, hated it, and immediately dropped the class. So after all that hype and publicity about how she'd been admitted to the engineering program at ASU at 12 and her whole life up to that point was focused on building rovers for NASA, she literally took ONE intro engineering class and immediately went "no no no, this is not for me." So then she switched to bio and immediately applied to med school without really knowing anything about it, except that it's a prestigious career her mother would approve of and "accepted to med school at 13" would garner just as much publicity as "accepted to engineering school at 12."

Another thing that jumped out at me was that in one interview they asked her what she would change about the educational system and she said she would eliminate testing, because although she does well in classes, she does really badly on tests. And it's kind of noticeable that in all the bragging about what a genius and prodigy she is, there's never any mention of SAT scores, which may explain why she's taking online classes through ASU and Oakwood instead of at a school where a profoundly gifted "child prodigy" would be better challenged. And after deciding on the basis of one bad engineering class that she really wanted to be a doctor, she applied to the one program that would give her "accepted to med school" bragging rights without having to take the MCAT first, and which provides intensive MCAT prep AND only requires a very low score that would not be remotely competitive if she had to go through the regular application process.

I realize that there are truly gifted kids who just don't test well, but it's not like she has all these other accomplishments that indicate how gifted she is, like actual science awards or other awards that are earned rather than orchestrated by a professional PR person. She's a STEM genius who's internationally recognized as a "Global Child Prodigy" in science, but never did any original research or STEM competitions, not even local ones? The only evidence of her "genius" is a homeschool diploma from mom plus some online classes from a program that my very-much-not-a-genius DD got easy As in, plus a charity that was set up for her by a "Personal Branding Expert" hired by her mom.

I wonder what her actual interests would be if she hadn't been groomed since toddlerhood to be a STEM genius? Maybe she would've really preferred to be a chef or an interior designer or a soccer coach or something. It must be so weird to be told all your life that you're a genius who's going to be a NASA engineer, only to discover that you don't actually like engineering (or maybe couldn't handle the classes). What will it do to her sense of identity if she can't handle the upper level premed classes, or gets to med school and discovers she hates it as much as engineering? How do you figure out who you really are and what you really want if your whole life has been scripted for you since you were 3?

 

Edited July 25, 2022 by Corraleno

[Catwoman]

39 minutes ago, chocolate-chip chooky said:

While this is all probably true for 99.95% of 13 year olds, there are outliers that actually exist. 

And these children can connect socially with much older people. In fact, that can be the only people they can connect with. And when these connections are genuine, those older people either don't notice or don't care about the age difference.

Whether this particular girl is one of these people, I wouldn't have a clue.

I'm just trying to help you think beyond your very strong statements.

Well, as it turns out, this particular girl is probably a complete fraud. 

If her mother hired a personal branding expert for her when she was only 3 years old, I would strongly suspect that much of the hype surrounding her is more smoke and mirrors than actual brilliance and maturity.

The more I find out about this girl, the sorrier I feel for her — and the more disgusted I am with her mother, who is clearly exploiting this child in order to achieve her own dreams and goals. 

In a more general sense, I know that many very bright kids get along better with adults than they do with kids their own age, but I also know that most college kids aren’t going to hang out with a 13yo outside of class. And really, if this particular girl believes that she is essentially an adult in a younger body, that can be dangerous, because adults who don’t have her best interests in mind could take advantage of her naïveté, and she could end up very hurt and confused (or worse.) 

A 13yo just doesn’t have the life experience to be hanging out with college kids, and there are many aspects of the college experience that are entirely inappropriate for a 13yo, particularly one who seems to believe that, “age doesn’t matter.” Those problems will be compounded if she actually ends up in medical school when she’s 15. I don’t care how intelligent she is; her emotional intelligence isn’t going to be at that level, and that’s what I’m most concerned about. 

[Frances]

4 minutes ago, Laura Corin said:

In the UK, in addition to stellar grades, successful applicants have to have undertaken extensive medical/hospital/hospice/social care volunteering or shadowing, to show their seriousness and make sure they understand what they are getting into. That would typically start from about age 16.

It’s the same in the US. And most places here aren’t going to let a 13 year old do any kind of serious healthcare related volunteering on their own. Many places that offer the type of volunteering US medical schools want to see require students to be 18. Some might have opportunities for high school students. But volunteer opportunities in healthcare settings for middle school students? Not very common in my experience, unless you count things like visiting nursing homes.

For example, my son is a certified long term care volunteer ombudsman, specializing in memory care facilities. They will not train or certify anyone under 18 and even then, very few young adults go through the process. And for good reason, it’s a huge responsibility and not one to be undertaken by someone who just entered the teen years. Besides the residents, my son regularly deals with administration, staff, family members, lawyers, and healthcare providers, as he advocates for his clients.

 

[Catwoman]

1 minute ago, Corraleno said:

Yeah, something about it just seemed off, especially the part where she instantly flipped a switch from "it's been my lifelong dream to be an engineer at NASA" to "As soon as I took my first bio class I knew I was meant to be a doctor."  Then I found another interview where she tells a totally different story, claiming she changed her plans as soon as she took her first engineering class at ASU, hated it, and immediately dropped the class. So after all that hype and publicity about how she'd been admitted to the engineering program at ASU at 12 and her whole life up to that point was focused on building rovers for NASA, she literally took ONE intro engineering class and immediately went "no no no, this is not for me." So then she switched to bio and immediately applied to med school without really knowing anything about it, except that it's a prestigious career her mother would approve of and "accepted to med school at 13" would garner just as much publicity as "accepted to engineering school at 12."

Another thing that jumped out at me was that in one interview they asked her what she would change about the educational system and she said she would eliminate testing, because although she does well in classes, she does really badly on tests. And it's kind of noticeable that in all the bragging about what a genius and prodigy she is, there's never any mention of SAT scores, which may explain why she's taking online classes through ASU and Oakwood instead of at a school where a profoundly gifted "child prodigy" would be better challenged. And after deciding on the basis of one bad engineering class that she really wanted to be a doctor, she applied to the one program that would give her "accepted to med school" bragging rights without having to take the MCAT first, and which provides intensive MCAT prep AND only requires a very low score that would not be remotely competitive if she had to go through the regular application process.

I realize that there are truly gifted kids who just don't test well, but it's not like she has all these other accomplishments that indicate how gifted she is, like actual science awards or other awards that are earned rather than orchestrated by a professional PR person. She's a STEM genius who's internationally recognized as a "Global Child Prodigy" in science, but never did any original research or STEM competitions, not even local ones? The only evidence of her "genius" is a homeschool diploma from mom plus some online classes from a program that my very-much-not-a-genius DD got easy As in, plus a charity that was set up for her by a "Personal Branding Expert" hired by her mom.

I wonder what her actual interests would be if she hadn't been groomed since toddlerhood to be a STEM genius? Maybe she would've really preferred to be a chef or an interior designer or a soccer coach or something. It must be so weird to be told all your life that you're a genius whose going to be a NASA engineer, only to discover that you don't actually like engineering (or maybe couldn't handle the classes). What will it do to her sense of identity if she cant handle the upper level premed classes, or gets to med school and discovers she hates it as much as engineering? How to you figure out who your really are and what you really love if your life has been scripted for you since you were 3?

 

Yeah, the whole thing sounds like a big scam. 

The unfortunate thing is that this girl probably believes she’s some kind of prodigy, when the evidence suggests that she’s probably bright enough, but not exceptional in any way.

And I hate to say it, but if she’s only taking remote courses, we don’t even know if she’s the one doing the coursework. Her mom seems willing to do whatever it takes to make this child famous as the smartest girl in the world, so I wouldn’t put anything past her. 

The saddest thing is that this kid would have probably done just fine on her own, on a normal or slightly accelerated timeline, but her mom is basically the ultimate stereotypical stage mother, and the kid probably has almost no say in the decisions that are being made for her, so she may not even have a choice as to what she studies or what career she pursues. It’s all about building her personal, well-crafted, highly rehearsed personal brand, not about the kid being allowed to be a kid.

She’s so young, and her mom and her “personal branding expert” have made her decisions for so long, and it’s all part of a plan that may have existed since before the girl was even born. It’s sickening.

[Frances]

11 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

I wonder what her actual interests would be if she hadn't been groomed since toddlerhood to be a STEM genius? Maybe she would've really preferred to be a chef or an interior designer or a soccer coach or something. It must be so weird to be told all your life that you're a genius who's going to be a NASA engineer, only to discover that you don't actually like engineering (or maybe couldn't handle the classes). What will it do to her sense of identity if she can't handle the upper level premed classes, or gets to med school and discovers she hates it as much as engineering? How to you figure out who you really are and what you really love if your whole life has been scripted for you since you were 3?

 

It’s so sad what parents will do to young children. I mean seriously, who hires a branding expert for a three year old? That’s the real story the Washington Post should be telling.

It will be interesting to see what happens when she moves on to the more challenging upper level pre-med classes such as biochemistry and organic chemistry.

And not testing well certainly won’t help her medical career. The MCAT is just the first in a long line of standardized tests taken by medical students.

I just feel really sorry for her. 

.

[Catwoman]

2 minutes ago, Frances said:

It’s so sad what parents will do to young children. I mean seriously, who hires a branding expert for a three year old? That’s the real story the Washington Post should be telling.

It will be interesting to see what happens when she moves on to the more challenging upper level pre-med classes such as biochemistry and organic chemistry.

And not testing well certainly won’t help her medical career. The MCAT is just the first in a long line of standardized tests taken by medical students.

I just feel really sorry for her. 

.

I do, too.

I suspect she will become a “prodigy” in something else as soon as she needs to take difficult classes. And I agree with you that she’s going to need to improve her test taking skills if she’s going to be successful. 

I’m concerned because it seems like she has been groomed for so many years that she believes the hype, and I think she is in for a very rude awakening— and so is her mother. But I don’t care about her mother; I care about the kid because she doesn’t know any better. 

I wonder if the mom’s ultimate goal is for the kid to become famous for being famous, and that she hopes the kid will be like the Kardashians or something. She certainly has some kind of long game in mind, and all of this seems like way too much work if your only goal is for your child to become a doctor (or an engineer, which seems to have been the first plan.) It’s just not exciting enough.

You don’t hire a personal branding expert for a 3yo toddler unless you have something really big in mind for the future. 

[Jean in Newcastle]

Time will tell, right?  If her mother is doing all the pushing, I wouldn't be surprised if the daughter stops going along with it once she gets a bit older as a teenager.  If the daughter is doing the pulling (my highly gifted child pulled me along at breakneck speed - I wasn't doing any pushing at all) then it might be a different outcome.  No matter what, she will soon be too old to make the "youngest at" records for anything.  And we'll see what she ends up doing in life. 

[Corraleno]

Oh man... I just noticed the conversation below the post where the mom thanked the branding expert:
Branding Expert: "You already know! A decade! She has always understood the assignment! Always!"
Mom: "And followed the road map. Thank you sister!"

Jeez, could it be any clearer that this kid is just a character in someone else's movie??? She always "understood the assignment" and "followed the road map" that these two people chose for her a decade ago when she was THREE.

I hope the poor kid survives all this and is eventually allowed to figure out what she really wants for herself, instead of what her mother wanted to mold her into. 

[Catwoman]

Just now, Corraleno said:

Oh man... I just noticed the conversation below the post where the mom thanked the branding expert:
Branding Expert: "You already know! A decade! She has always understood the assignment! Always!"
Mom: "And followed the road map. Thank you sister!"

Jeez, could it be any clearer that this kid is just a character in someone else's movie??? She always "understood the assignment" and "followed the road map" that these two people chose for her a decade ago when she was THREE.

I hope the poor kid survives all this and is eventually allowed to figure out what she really wants for herself, instead of what her mother wanted to mold her into. 

Oh wow! 😮 

That’s even worse than I suspected!

You’re right — the kid is a character in her mom’s sick movie! And she and the branding expert are proud of themselves!!!

The mom must be one incredible narcissist — heaven help that poor kid when she wants to start making some decisions for herself! 😞 

[TechWife]

6 hours ago, chocolate-chip chooky said:

While this is all probably true for 99.95% of 13 year olds, there are outliers that actually exist. 

And these children can connect socially with much older people. In fact, that can be the only people they can connect with. And when these connections are genuine, those older people either don't notice or don't care about the age difference.

Whether this particular girl is one of these people, I wouldn't have a clue.

I'm just trying to help you think beyond your very strong statements.

As I stated before, it isn’t a matter of whether or not she is socially precocious and is so able to connect with much older people. It’s a matter of biology. It’s her brain that needs time to develop. A 15 year old brain has limitations and vulnerabilities. Then there is the fact that her social development is not only asynchronous with her intellect, but no one close to her (her mother or this “branding expert”) seems to be aware of that, so of course she isn’t aware either. Age does matter because it takes time for brains to develop.

“The high plasticity of the adolescent brain permits environmental influences to exert particularly strong effects on cortical circuitry. While this makes intellectual and emotional development possible, it also opens the door to potentially harmful influences.” Adolescence is the phase of life between late childhood and adulthood. It is a time not only of physical maturation, but also of mental and emotional development into an independent, responsible adult. The major developmental tasks of adolescence include the establishment and nurturing of intimate relationships and the development of identity, future perspectives, independence, self-confidence, self-control, and social skills.

…

Large-scale longitudinal studies have shown that a basic reorganization of the brain occurs during adolescence (7). Many synapses are eliminated (8) while, at the same time, there is an increase in white matter (9, 10), and there are changes in neurotransmitter systems as well (11, e1, e2). Thus, the anatomical and physiological maturation processes that take place in adolescence are much more dynamic than originally thought. It can be concluded that a reorganization of cortical circuits takes place in adolescence and is reflected in the changes in cognitive functioning and affect regulation that are typical of this period of life (12).“

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3705203/

Edited July 25, 2022 by TechWife

[TechWife]

6 hours ago, vonfirmath said:

Maybe the problem is more that we delay so many kids entering the adult world so they don't grow up? Throughout at least some parts of history, kids were treated as adults and expected to take on adult responsibilities at younger ages than we now expect.

 

Kids who took on adult responsibilities at earlier ages were also injured or died while doing so - farming accidents and industrial accidents are no joke.  People who bear children at younger ages have higher infant and maternal death rates. Children who are neglected or abused by parents to the extent that they are responsible for their own welfare and/or that of their siblings are stressed beyond what the rest of us can imagine are not emotionally healthy, and often not physically healthy, either. We owe a lot to various labor & womens movements and the protections that resulted from them - including not just safety laws, but child labor laws, minimum age marriage requirements and clear expectations that parents provide basic care for their children. 

We need to look at the past with lenses as clear as possible. It isn’t enough to say things were different at some point in the past. We must gather enough information to determine if that difference is good or bad. 

[TechWife]

6 hours ago, Laura Corin said:

In the UK, in addition to stellar grades, successful applicants have to have undertaken extensive medical/hospital/hospice/social care volunteering or shadowing, to show their seriousness and make sure they understand what they are getting into. That would typically start from about age 16.

This is also true in the US. I work with  a lot of young volunteers who are considering medical careers. I like watching them grow as people - including those who figure out along the way that they don’t like the atmosphere or responsibility as much as they thought they would and change trajectories. The number of hours spent in various medical settings plays into admissions for various medical careers and the ability to land needed internships during their undergrad and grad years. 

[gstharr]

Well, my initial reaction was that it was some tyoe of automatic admission program where the student gets accepted into medical school freshman year.  Brown University has such a program.  On our tour of Brown, we were told that it so admitted students would not have to follow the lockstep path to medical school.  Students would have greater freedom in class selection, no volunteering and mcats to worry about. 

But, the program that she was admitted follows the lockstep path to medical school. https://www.uab.edu/medicine/home/admissions/burroughs-wellcome-scholars-early-assurance-program. I would assume that she completed the requirements since she was actually admitted by the medical school.  

I do think something is not right here, but her academics must be legit.

[EKS]

7 hours ago, Corraleno said:

Another thing that jumped out at me was that in one interview they asked her what she would change about the educational system and she said she would eliminate testing, because although she does well in classes, she does really badly on tests.

Executive function strikes again.  It can compensate for a whole lot.  As an aside, this is why I think that using GPA without test scores for college admissions is ridiculous.

I feel so sorry for this poor girl.  

[gstharr]

46 minutes ago, gstharr said:

Well, my initial reaction was that it was some tyoe of automatic admission program where the student gets accepted into medical school freshman year.  Brown University has such a program.  On our tour of Brown, we were told that it so admitted students would not have to follow the lockstep path to medical school.  Students would have greater freedom in class selection, no volunteering and mcats to worry about. 

But, the program that she was admitted follows the lockstep path to medical school. https://www.uab.edu/medicine/home/admissions/burroughs-wellcome-scholars-early-assurance-program. I would assume that she completed the requirements since she was actually admitted by the medical school.  

I do think something is not right here, but her academics must be legit.

 Now that I re-read the newspaper article, and the requirement of Alabama's Early Assurance Program, I now believe that she was only accepted to  EAP program, and not yet the medical school.   EAP provides mentoring, volunteer and clinical opoprtunities, and mcat prep.   mcat scores are not required for admission into EAP, but must be submitted by graduation.  Also, she must complete all requirements for admission to the medical school by gradusation. This probably explains why there was no reporting of her mcat scores and relevant community service.   

btw Alabama's medical school has some of the lowest minimum admission requirements that I've seen. it accepts some AP classes, and 465 mcat (35th percentile).

[Catwoman]

1 hour ago, EKS said:

Executive function strikes again.  It can compensate for a whole lot.  As an aside, this is why I think that using GPA without test scores for college admissions is ridiculous.

I feel so sorry for this poor girl.  

Another explanation for why she does well in class but “does really badly on tests,” may be that she is getting a lot of outside help with her coursework (from her mom or possibly tutors,) but has to take some of the tests on her own. 

My mind wouldn’t normally jump to a conclusion like that, because some people genuinely don’t test well, but if her mom hired a personal branding consultant for this child at 3 years old, I can’t help but wonder if she wouldn’t let some silly little thing like academic integrity interfere with her plans to make sure her dd is considered the smartest girl in the world who is the “youngest” to achieve great things. 

[Dmmetler]

I will also say-I know multiple kids and parents on the early college path, primarily in math and Science. There are two big issues for early college. The first is location. You are kind of stuck with whatever programs are local to you, or you can reach online. And ultimately, you've got to tick those lower level course boxes SOMEWHERE so you can take more interesting coursework. 

The second is funding-usually your kid isn't eligible for much except for automatic scholarships, although some states make it easier than others. In some states there is simply no route to graduate high school before the legal drop out age, so you have to juggle the dual enrorllment route, but, since you haven't graduated high school, don't get financial aid-or those automatic state scholarships based on high school GPA and test scores. And, if your state has both age and grade level caps, might not get DE funding either. Credit caps also apply. Funded research is considered employment, so your child won't be eligible if they cannot legally work yet. College work study, tutoring...all those ways of normally helping to fund college simply aren't there. 

 

Together, the two explain why a kid ends up at a non-competitive school, community college, or something like the ASU earned admission program. Because even if Harvard is in your backyard, and your kid has the profile and test scores to get in, self-funding Harvard is beyond what most parents can do. (And Harvard, in particular, no longer allows underage students to earn degrees through their extension school because they didn't much like headlines about a 15 yr old who did so...).  

 

 

 

 

Edited July 25, 2022 by Dmmetler

[gstharr]

28 minutes ago, Catwoman said:

Another explanation for why she does well in class but “does really badly on tests,” may be that she is getting a lot of outside help with her coursework (from her mom or possibly tutors,) but has to take some of the tests on her own. 

My mind wouldn’t normally jump to a conclusion like that, because some people genuinely don’t test well, but if her mom hired a personal branding consultant for this child at 3 years old, I can’t help but wonder if she wouldn’t let some silly little thing like academic integrity interfere with her plans to make sure her dd is considered the smartest girl in the world who is the “youngest” to achieve great things. 

I suspect this is the case to some degree.  it is curious that a lot of  her sciences are taken on line when she she is enrolled-not DE-- at a college.  When the kids returned to campus at my kid's high school, after a year of online classes, there was a big drop in academics for math and science.  Like students getting As in pre-calc, but having to drop calc AB.  The sudents freely talked (among themselves) about cheating for the As.

My 12th grader  has racked up awards, financiial assistance, and free summer programs ever since taking the SAT at 12 y.o.  Every single program required SAT, ACT, or at least PSAT scores.  Alomst all used high scores for selection. I don't see how she be so advanced with poor testing.  How is the giftedness otherwise identified at such early age..

[PaxEtLux]

20 minutes ago, gstharr said:

it is curious that a lot of  her sciences are taken on line when she she is enrolled-not DE-- at a college. 

It sounds like all of her classes, except for labs, are taken on-line, as she lives at home in Texas, and claims to be full-time enrolled (?) in two colleges, one in Arizona, one in Alabama.

[crazyforlatin]

21 hours ago, Corraleno said:

Both of my kids have taken ASU online classes, and none of them have been remotely challenging,

Are the ASU online classes same as the in-person classes? I’m curious because my friend’s Dd is struggling to maintain a GPA to continue her scholarship. She was not homeschooled and I do not know her educational background. College prep classes in high school make a difference, and they are from a small town in Minnesota. You compared it to Lukeion which is why it stood out to me. I briefly considered ASU as a safety school but the weather wouldn’t work for Dd.

[Katy]

21 minutes ago, gstharr said:

I suspect this is the case to some degree.  it is curious that a lot of  her sciences are taken on line when she she is enrolled-not DE-- at a college.  When the kids returned to campus at my kid's high school, after a year of online classes, there was a big drop in academics for math and science.  Like students getting As in pre-calc, but having to drop calc AB.  The sudents freely talked (among themselves) about cheating for the As.

My 12th grader  has racked up awards, financiial assistance, and free summer programs ever since taking the SAT at 12 y.o.  Every single program required SAT, ACT, or at least PSAT scores.  Alomst all used high scores for selection. I don't see how she be so advanced with poor testing.  How is the giftedness otherwise identified at such early age..

I do too. My DH is a bad tester but very intelligent; testing is the only way giftedness is evaluated in children. This has got to be a simple case of acceleration. That makes me sad. I was so happy for her when I first read about her. 

[Dmmetler]

11 minutes ago, gstharr said:

I suspect this is the case to some degree.  it is curious that a lot of  her sciences are taken on line when she she is enrolled-not DE-- at a college.  When the kids returned to campus at my kid's high school, after a year of online classes, there was a big drop in academics for math and science.  Like students getting As in pre-calc, but having to drop calc AB.  The sudents freely talked (among themselves) about cheating for the As.

My 12th grader  has racked up awards, financiial assistance, and free summer programs ever since taking the SAT at 12 y.o.  Every single program required SAT, ACT, or at least PSAT scores.  Alomst all used high scores for selection. I don't see how she be so advanced with poor testing.  How is the giftedness otherwise identified at such early age..

Uh, IQ and individualized achievement testing by a psychologist? Talent search uses out of level testing as a cheap proxy for the full thing that is easily accessible, but the gold standard is still individualized testing. 

 ASU does earned admissions, where you take classes and are admitted to the program if you get at least a 2.75, and Oakwood does not require ACT/SAT if you have college math and English credits (according to their admissions page). According to prepscholar, their 75% ACT is 21 and their 50% is 18, so I could see a student being able to get in with scores that they consider "not all that good", especially if they have friends who do talent search programs, where scores in the 30's are quite common. 

 

 

[catz]

Oh I think there can be plenty of reasons why a kid might not test to ability especially on a timed standardized bubble test.  Our state requires testing annually from age 7 to 18 using a normed standardized test for homeschooling.  I saw my kids that I was working with day to day do all sorts of crazy things on this once a year testing.  My oldest did the WJ one on one with a tester in a very relaxed setting and did great.  The following year, he was anxious when he first took the ACT and it showed.   He did very well for his age which he started at like 11/12.  But not to the WJ we might have expected.  My 12th grader had 2 full years of no timed standardized testing due to covid (we took easy routes to fufill the required testing) and that has absolutely hurt her.  She worked with a tutor for a few weeks and he told her she should be ceiling this test but the timing and her brain gets to her and it starts to fall apart.  Luckily she's graduating with lots of college credits and A's to her name.  There is data that indicate that standardized tests are not a magic bullet in succes in college and looking at academic portfolio is a good choice. 

I mean there are testers that get $$$$ because they are trained specificially to work with quirky GT kids and they get better data and scores out of them.  

I actually am a first gen college student.  I took the ACT test once and did fine.  Good enough for the school options I could afford (I did attend a state flagship engineering school).  When I tested for grad school, I ceilinged the test.  Do I think I gained IQ points in a few years?  No not really.  I just got better at jumping that hoop.  

Now all that said, for a kid that isn't good at testing at this age, this defintiely doesn't seem like the appropriate path.  She is highly likely to improve with that over time.  I was just musing when I first posted on this, but the more I hear this story the more I think there were some unusual choices here.  I just hate when stories like this are covered in a sensationalized way which they always seem to be.  

[EKS]

1 hour ago, Katy said:

testing is the only way giftedness is evaluated in children.

That is not true.  It is certainly the most common way, and it is the only way that is officially recognized in most situations, but there are other ways to figure out if a kid is gifted.

[Corraleno]

1 hour ago, crazyforlatin said:

Are the ASU online classes same as the in-person classes? I’m curious because my friend’s Dd is struggling to maintain a GPA to continue her scholarship. She was not homeschooled and I do not know her educational background. College prep classes in high school make a difference, and they are from a small town in Minnesota. You compared it to Lukeion which is why it stood out to me. I briefly considered ASU as a safety school but the weather wouldn’t work for Dd.

No, I doubt the in person classes are similar to the online ones. The format for the online classes is specifically designed to accommodate thousands of students at once, so grading is automated, mostly unproctored, and there is little to no interaction with the instructors, although there are TA's that will answer questions posted on the discussion board. 

The standard format in these classes, most of which are 7-8 weeks long, is that there are recorded videos posted each week, along with reading assignments, a "Content Mastery" assignment, a short, unproctored 20-item multiple choice quiz, and you are required to post a brief response to the weekly prompt on the discussion board and then reply to two other students' posts. You get full points for the discussion if you post anything at all, and most of the time the instructor doesn't even seem to read them. (In only one of the classes my kids took did the instructor ever comment on discussion posts, and it was like "good point!" once or twice during the course.)

The "Content Mastery" assignment is basically just a set of digital flashcards that includes all, or nearly all, of the questions that will be on the quiz, and you get an A on the Content Mastery assignment (which counts towards your final grade) just for flipping through them at least once. And you can go through them as often as you want right before you take the quiz.

Most of the classes only allow one shot at the quiz, but one of DD's classes allowed 3 attempts — and these are easy, multiple choice quizzes where you can often eliminate at least 2 of the 4 choices because they make no sense. Some courses also have a midterm and final, although these are only proctored in the math, engineering, and economics courses; in all other courses they are unproctored and allow up to 3 hours to take them (so plenty of time to look up all the answers if you're so inclined).

The English Comp classes are slightly different. Like the other classes they have recorded lectures, reading assignments, Content Mastery assignments, and quizzes, but they also have writing assignments — which are totally self-graded, with zero feedback from instructors or TAs. So if you give yourself an A on all your writing assignments, and you do the Content Mastery and get As on the quizzes, you are guaranteed an A in the class even if you can barely write an English sentence. I think there were two assignments that involved peer review, but getting a bad review of your work had no impact on your grade. The writing assignments were not based on literature or other standard academic topics, they were like analyzing a TV commercial or describing how you feel about writing. The English Comp 2 class requires designing, carrying out, and writing up a community based research project. It is also self-graded and you can give yourself an A even if you write nonsense, but DD didn't want to bother with it after she completed the first Comp class.

The actual content of the classes (lectures and reading assignments) is decent and they do actually cover the material you would expect in a basic introductory course in psychology, sociology, astronomy, history, etc. But the level of output required is very very low and it's super easy to get an A with very little work.

Also, the way the Universal Learner online program works is that you just pay $25 upfront to verify your identity when you enroll in the class, and then you only pay for the college credits at the end if you like your grade. So it's a totally risk-free way to try out college classes, because if you get a bad grade, you just don't pay the $400 fee to put it on your transcript and there's no record of ever having taken it. So a student can ensure that they have whatever GPA they want on their ASU transcript by only including the grades that add up to the number they want (3.0. 3.5. 4,0, etc).

Edited July 25, 2022 by Corraleno

[ChickaDeeDeeDee]

@CorralenoThank you for taking the time to give all those details about the ASU UL classes.  Your post satisfied a lot of curiosity I had about them.  

[Corraleno]

I'm positive that Alena at least started with the Universal Learner courses, because her mother said in an interview that Alena had "applied" to ASU totally on her own and had already been "accepted" and had started taking classes before she (mom) even knew about it. Any homeschool parent who's gone through the application process knows that no admissions department is going to accept a 12 yr old homeschooler with no transcript, no grades, no test scores, no recommendations, no school profile, no counselor letter, etc!

But there's no "application" or "acceptance" required to take the UL courses — anyone anywhere of any age can take them. And they do offer a few totally online engineering courses (Intro to Engineering, Chem for Engineers, and Calc for Engineers).  So when you read all these news stories about how she was "accepted into the engineering program at ASU at the age of 12" what really happened was that she started taking openly available courses that require no application and if you drop or flunk them there's no record of it.

Alena's frequent references to the fact that she "has a 4.0 at ASU" means about as much as the fact that my kid, who at one point had a 2.7 at the local CC, also has a "4.0 at ASU."

Edited July 25, 2022 by Corraleno

[EKS]

6 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

Alena's frequent references to the fact that she "has a 4.0 at ASU" means about as much as the fact that my kid, who at one point had a 2.7 at the local CC, also has a "4.0 at ASU."

I have a 4.0 at ASU as well!

(Graduate school, and I earned it and then some, but that's where I learned about their ridiculously low standards.)

[Catwoman]

1 hour ago, Corraleno said:

I'm positive that Alena at least started with the Universal Learner courses, because her mother said in an interview that Alena had "applied" to ASU totally on her own and had already been "accepted" and had started taking classes before she (mom) even knew about it. Any homeschool parent who's gone through the application process knows that no admissions department is going to accept a 12 yr old homeschooler with no transcript, no grades, no test scores, no recommendations, no school profile, no counselor letter, etc!

But there's no "application" or "acceptance" required to take the UL courses — anyone anywhere of any age can take them. And they do offer a few totally online engineering courses (Intro to Engineering, Chem for Engineers, and Calc for Engineers).  So when you read all these news stories about how she was "accepted into the engineering program at ASU at the age of 12" what really happened was that she started taking openly available courses that require no application and if you drop or flunk them there's no record of it.

Alena's frequent references to the fact that she "has a 4.0 at ASU" means about as much as the fact that my kid, who at one point had a 2.7 at the local CC, also has a "4.0 at ASU."

 

I feel like the more we learn about this girl and her mom, the more the whole thing feels like a whole lot of smoke and mirrors, and not a lot of actual truth.

It's like everything they say is carefully constructed and rehearsed (and run past that handy personal branding consultant to see if it sounds impressive enough.) I don't know if you noticed this, too, but the kid uses almost identical phrasing in nearly every interview. She has clearly been coached to within an inch of her life so she can stay on brand.

 

Edited July 25, 2022 by Catwoman
typo!

[Corraleno]

A few more notes, just because I have some free time and I've fallen far down the rabbit hole on this story:

Alena did not get her "NASA internship" by competing against thousands of other top STEM kids for the limited internships that are advertised every year. Someone who works at NASA saw one of the news articles about her that portrayed her as a genius and child prodigy who has been saying since she was 4 years old that it was a her life's dream to work at NASA, and he created a special one-off "internship" just for her. So she got an internship based on hyped up media reports created by her "personal brand expert," and then used that information (Youngest intern ever in the history of NASA! Her mentor is a top NASA scientist!) in more media and PR as proof that she's a genius and child prodigy.

There are two pretty clear patterns here: (1) Using hype and misleading media reports to get opportunities that are then used to create more hype and misleading media reports that further her "brand.," and (2) presenting information in a way that suggests she "won" awards and acceptances while competing against other very highly qualified students when she is actually getting into these things through "side doors" where there is little to no competition (a specially created "internship," taking online courses available to anyone anywhere while claiming to have been "admitted to ASU engineering at 12," claiming to have been "accepted to med school" at 13, when she was actually accepted into a not-very-compeittive premed "mentoring program" without any test scores, etc.)

The "charity" that she claims to have founded does not appear on Charity Navigator or Charity Watch and I can't find any info that would confirm it's actually a registered nonprofit. The website asks for donations and has a donate button, but does not say that donations are tax deductible.

In interviews Alena claims that her "foundation" offers one of the most "competitive and prestigious" scholarship programs for STEM girls in the country, partnering with various universities to offer four year scholarships to WOC. But the requirements for the highly selective and prestigious Brown STEM Girl scholarship are... a 3.2 GPA and Pell eligibility. And there is actually only one partner: Oakwood.

The "charity" solicits donations to provide support, mentoring, and STEM experiences to girls of color, but the main thing they are fundraising for right now is to send a small, select group of girls on an all expenses paid trip to Singapore and Malaysia — a trip with no connection at all to STEM activities. It's organized by a commercial travel group called Diva Tours and offers 8 days in luxury hotels, nice restaurants, a theme park day, and various guided tours. For a (not tax deductible) donation of only $5,500 you can send Alena or one of her friends on an all expense paid vacation!

There's an "interview" with Alena in a small obscure magazine that seems to be a private PR thing, with the headline "The Black Bill Gates." That was followed with many other media stories saying "She's been called 'The Black Bill Gates,'..." as if this is something she's widely known as, when the phrase seems to have been purposely "planted" in this PR piece just so other PR pieces could refer to her that way.

The reason I put "interview" in quotes is because her answers to questions in that piece sound like they were written by an adult on her behalf, e.g. "I am an example of servant leadership that creates wealth and opportunities for other girls of color. I am called to create Generational Wealth and teach other kids to do the same. I became a kidpreneur because I wanted to create a legacy in the world." Uh, sure... that totally sounds like a spontaneous answer from a 12 year old.

In one interview she was asked what her favorite book was and she said it was her own book, Brainiac Girls, which was available for preorder, lol. That was over a year ago and there is still no sign of any such book, and in the WaPo article there was a correction at the bottom saying that the original article referred to Alena as "a published author," but that line was removed "at her mother's request." I guess that was one lie that would be too easy to fact check.

Edited July 25, 2022 by Corraleno

[TexasProud]

nm

Edited July 26, 2022 by TexasProud

[EKS]

20 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

A few more notes, just because I have some free time and I've fallen far down the rabbit hole on this story...

Yikes!  Based on everything you've found here, it's way worse that I ever imagined.  How sad.

[Tree Frog]

I'm curious how her being an adopted foster child fits into this and how it might affect her as she moves into her teens.

6 minutes ago, TexasProud said:

She was a keynote speaker at this event. Interesting.

https://events.linuxfoundation.org/open-source-summit-north-america/program/featured-speakers/

She attended school in Amman, Jordan, according to the blurb written about her. I would be interested to find the Good Morning America piece she did. Hearing her speak would be interesting.

[TexasProud]

nm

Edited July 26, 2022 by TexasProud

[EKS]

12 minutes ago, Tree Frog said:

I would be interested to find the Good Morning America piece she did. Hearing her speak would be interesting.

9 minutes ago, TexasProud said:

Yeah, I have no idea. Would like to hear her actual words. Not jumping to conclusions either way, but just thought I would add what I found.

Not Good Morning America, but something.  There are others as well.  

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nvEOpmeLMyI

In contrast, here is a 12yo who was recruited by Georgia Tech.  The difference is astounding.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tQaMVwPUUfg

 

Edited July 25, 2022 by EKS

[Tree Frog]

Here's another interview. She says she flies in to complete her labs. 

https://youtu.be/EBjfqmLkDtA

 

Edited July 25, 2022 by Tree Frog

[Tree Frog]

4 minutes ago, EKS said:

In contrast, here is a 12yo who was accepted to Georgia Tech.  The difference is astounding.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tQaMVwPUUfg

I enjoyed seeing the family and how they were supporting him. It was also interesting to see how he was readinga at 1 yo and attending first grade at 2 (? I think that's what they said).

I don't think it should be necessary to showcase a child prodigy's abilities, but it was interesting to see how it all fit together for him.

[Tree Frog]

27 minutes ago, Tree Frog said:

I'm curious how her being an adopted foster child fits into this and how it might affect her as she moves into her teens.

I quoted myself because she wasn't apparently a foster child. In op's link, she said "Statistics would have said I never would have made it. A little black girl adopted from Fontana California."

 

In this link, she was born to her parents. Alena Wicker was born to her beloved parents in the United States in 2009. Since Alena was a little child, her mother, Daphne McQuarter, has encouraged her interest in science. Wicker’s father’s identity is unknown, and a lot of people online are intrigued about his name. Her mother is thought to be her only caregiver.

I don't know how reliable the second article is. 

 

Edited July 25, 2022 by Tree Frog

[EKS]

49 minutes ago, Tree Frog said:

I enjoyed seeing the family and how they were supporting him.

Exactly, but the thing that most struck me was the way he expressed himself, which is much more in line with what I would expect from an HG+, NT kid that age.

Edited July 25, 2022 by EKS

[Corraleno]

5 minutes ago, TexasProud said:

She was a keynote speaker at this event. Interesting.

https://events.linuxfoundation.org/open-source-summit-north-america/program/featured-speakers/

It's interesting that her bio never lists any substantive accomplishments, just that she "founded a charity" (with lofty goals but nothing to show for it) and she's the "youngest ever" to do XYZ (which in every case turns out to be a purposely and rather artificially created "accomplishment").

This blurb from her bio for that event pretty much sums it up: "Alena has received international acclaim through her features in Good Morning American, The Kelly and Ryan Show, Black Entertainment Television, and a host of news outlets throughout the world."

So her main accomplishment is  basically just garnering a lot of publicity, thanks to the professional "brand expert" her mother hired when she was a toddler.

[Frances]

1 hour ago, Corraleno said:

A few more notes, just because I have some free time and I've fallen far down the rabbit hole on this story:

Alena did not get her "NASA internship" by competing against thousands of other top STEM kids for the limited internships that are advertised every year. Someone who works at NASA saw one of the news articles about her that portrayed her as a genius and child prodigy who has been saying since she was 4 years old that it was a her life's dream to work at NASA, and he created a special one-off "internship" just for her. So she got an internship based on hyped up media reports created by her "personal brand expert," and then used that information (Youngest intern ever in the history of NASA! Her mentor is a top NASA scientist!) in more media and PR as proof that she's a genius and child prodigy.

There are two pretty clear patterns here: (1) Using hype and misleading media reports to get opportunities that are then used to create more hype and misleading media reports that further her "brand.," and (2) presenting information in a way that suggests she "won" awards and acceptances while competing against other very highly qualified students when she is actually getting into these things through "side doors" where there is little to no competition (a specially created "internship," taking online courses available to anyone anywhere while claiming to have been "admitted to ASU engineering at 12," claiming to have been "accepted to med school" at 13, when she was actually accepted into a not-very-compeittive premed "mentoring program" without any test scores, etc.)

The "charity" that she claims to have founded does not appear on Charity Navigator or Charity Watch and I can't find any info that would confirm it's actually a registered nonprofit. The website asks for donations and has a donate button, but does not say that donations are tax deductible.

In interviews Alena claims that her "foundation" offers one of the most "competitive and prestigious" scholarship programs for STEM girls in the country, partnering with various universities to offer four year scholarships to WOC. But the requirements for the highly selective and prestigious Brown STEM Girl scholarship are... a 3.2 GPA and Pell eligibility. And there is actually only one partner: Oakwood.

The "charity" solicits donations to provide support, mentoring, and STEM experiences to girls of color, but the main thing they are fundraising for right now is to send a small, select group of girls on an all expenses paid trip to Singapore and Malaysia — a trip with no connection at all to STEM activities. It's organized by a commercial travel group called Diva Tours and offers 8 days in luxury hotels, nice restaurants, a theme park day, and various guided tours. For a (not tax deductible) donation of only $5,500 you can send Alena or one of her friends on an all expense paid vacation!

There's an "interview" with Alena in a small obscure magazine that seems to be a private PR thing, with the headline "The Black Bill Gates." That was followed with many other media stories saying "She's been called 'The Black Bill Gates,'..." as if this is something she's widely known as, when the phrase seems to have been purposely "planted" in this PR piece just so other PR pieces could refer to her that way.

The reason I put "interview" in quotes is because her answers to questions in that piece sound like they were written by an adult on her behalf, e.g. "I am an example of servant leadership that creates wealth and opportunities for other girls of color. I am called to create Generational Wealth and teach other kids to do the same. I became a kidpreneur because I wanted to create a legacy in the world." Uh, sure... that totally sounds like a spontaneous answer from a 12 year old.

In one interview she was asked what her favorite book was and she said it was her own book, Brainiac Girls, which was available for preorder, lol. That was over a year ago and there is still no sign of any such book, and in the WaPo article there was a correction at the bottom saying that the original article referred to Alena as "a published author," but that line was removed "at her mother's request." I guess that was one lie that would be too easy to fact check.

I wish the Washington Post had done the kind of thorough research you have and exposed the mom and her PR publicist for their behind the scenes manipulation. Even if they chose not to pursue a critical article, they shouldn’t have published the fluff piece they did if they did any digging at all.

And what’s with her being referred to as an entrepreneur in some articles? The only thing it seems to relate to when mentioned is her charity to promote STEM among minority girls. How is that starting and running a business, unless she is doing it to make a profit for herself and it’s not really a non-profit?

Edited July 25, 2022 by Frances

[Corraleno]

17 minutes ago, Frances said:

I wish the Washington Post had done the kind of thorough research you have and exposed the mom and her PR publicist for their behind the scenes manipulation. Even if they chose not to pursue a critical article, they shouldn’t have published the fluff piece they did if they did any digging at all.

And what’s with her being referred to as an entrepreneur in some articles? The only thing it seems to relate to when mentioned is her charity to promote STEM among minority girls. How is that starting and running a business, unless she is doing it to make a profit for herself and it’s not really a non-profit?

Well her "charity" does sell tee shirts ($40) and hoodies ($65) with her trademarked logo...

[Corraleno]

51 minutes ago, EKS said:

Not Good Morning America, but something.  There are others as well.  

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nvEOpmeLMyI

In contrast, here is a 12yo who was recruited by Georgia Tech.  The difference is astounding.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tQaMVwPUUfg

 

Yeah, the contrast — both between her and Caleb, and between her "live" voice and her "written" voice — are pretty stark. In person she sounds like a totally ordinary 12 yr old girl ("uh, yeah, I like legos... I think I'll get a job at NASA when I'm, uh, maybe 16") versus news articles where's she's quoted as saying "I am an example of servant leadership that creates wealth and opportunities for other girls of color. I am called to create Generational Wealth and teach other kids to do the same."

[EKS]

Here's another interview, where something she says makes it obvious that she needed to do remedial math (using ALEKS) at ASU.  She talks more in it than in the last interview link I posted.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DGRnF9Uz-cY

Edited July 25, 2022 by EKS

[Katy]

44 minutes ago, Frances said:

I wish the Washington Post had done the kind of thorough research you have and exposed the mom and her PR publicist for their behind the scenes manipulation. Even if they chose not to pursue a critical article, they shouldn’t have published the fluff piece they did if they did any digging at all.

And what’s with her being referred to as an entrepreneur in some articles? The only thing it seems to relate to when mentioned is her charity to promote STEM among minority girls. How is that starting and running a business, unless she is doing it to make a profit for herself and it’s not really a non-profit?

According to a YouTube interview from last year a local station in Arizona said what we thought was a foundation is a business and the business has a foundation to give scholarships at the one college. I’m guessing she’s giving herself a scholarship too. 

[Frances]

59 minutes ago, EKS said:

Not Good Morning America, but something.  There are others as well.  

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nvEOpmeLMyI

In contrast, here is a 12yo who was recruited by Georgia Tech.  The difference is astounding.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tQaMVwPUUfg

 

I honestly found her interview sad. She seemed uncomfortable and even with lots of leading questions, didn’t have much at all to say. She said she would study astronomical and planetary science and her major would be chemistry? So not engineering, even though she says in the interview she wants to be an engineer at NASA when she finished college at 16. She didn’t make clear she would be attending classes online, although she did say she chose ASU due to it’s curriculum. And as for her Lego project, I’m perplexed about what’s amazing about building something from a kit? It’s not like she designed and built the Millennium Falcon with Legos from scratch.

[Katy]

She simultaneously unschooled middle school and high school? Oh my. 

[Catwoman]

5 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

Yeah, the contrast — both between her and Caleb, and between her "live" voice and her "written" voice — are pretty stark. In person she sounds like a totally ordinary 12 yr old girl ("uh, yeah, I like legos... I think I'll get a job at NASA when I'm, uh, maybe 16") versus news articles where's she's quoted as saying "I am an example of servant leadership that creates wealth and opportunities for other girls of color. I am called to create Generational Wealth and teach other kids to do the same."

I agree! Also, doesn't the YouTube video contradict the mom's assertion that the girl applied to ASU on her own and started taking classes? In this video, she seems to say that she and her mom went to see a lot of schools and they picked ASU.

I hate to say this about a 13yo, but she doesn't sound particularly bright to me. Her vocabulary, her hesitation, her delivery... average at best, from what I saw in that video. She is certainly not the same person who wrote the responses I saw in written articles. I feel mean saying that about a child, but when she and her mom are trying to position her as the black, female Einstein... well... let's just say I'm skeptical.