Shooting at a Texas elementary school

[Farrar]

I'm also curious... It's now been reported widely that it's considered best practice for LEO's to go into schools immediately. In WaPo, it quoted something that said just 2-5 officers who don't even necessarily have special training. It's just considered to be the best way to end the situation faster and the faster you end it, the more lives you save.

Is it also actually best practice for kids to hide in locked down rooms? Like, seriously. Way back thread somewhere, people were talking about how the safest thing you can do is get OUT of the building. Is that true? Are there links for that? And if that's true, why don't we run shooter drills that way? Like a fire drill that involves getting out the building and literally leave the campus? (I mean, if we're going to run shooter drills at all, which I don't know that we even should.)

And because I'm just musing... I can't help but think about the deep disconnect... that in a state where teachers are allowed to carry in schools and where guns are widely lauded as a way to stop other guns... that when there was a literal bad guy shooting actual small children, everyone just stood around for well over and hour doing nothing and waiting for the experts. 

[TechWife]

This is an excellent opinion piece. 
“All around us things that ought to matter shrink in proportion to things that ought not to”

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2022/05/uvalde-texas-robb-elementary-school-culture-death/638435/

[kokotg]

It's possible that it's just unrealistic to expect LEO to sacrifice more to protect our kids than we as a society are willing to do. Like the model of individuals not being willing to give up anything to protect others while expecting some altruistic class of do gooders to give up everything is flawed somehow (I could make a lot of pandemic analogies here, and a lot of analogies in general, but I think they're fairly obvious). This is not to excuse what appears to have gone down, but the LEO are part of the society that we all collectively built. 

[Farrar]

15 minutes ago, TechWife said:

This is an excellent opinion piece. 
“All around us things that ought to matter shrink in proportion to things that ought not to”

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2022/05/uvalde-texas-robb-elementary-school-culture-death/638435/

Yes. This.

And we wring our hands and wonder... Why does no one want to have children? Why are young people committing suicide? Why are people dropping out of society and productivity? Why are we not innovating like we used to? A society that kills its children has no right to a future.

[WildflowerMom]

Last night, CNN had an article that said the SRO wasn't even there.  Has anyone also heard that? 

[Farrar]

2 minutes ago, WildflowerMom said:

Last night, CNN had an article that said the SRO wasn't even there.  Has anyone also heard that? 

In the CNN article, they quote the TX Dept of Public Safety spokesperson who gave the briefing. So I would assume that's true because CNN is a pretty reliable source and they say where the information came from and it's the most recent version. The SRO wasn't there. 

[WildflowerMom]

1 minute ago, Farrar said:

In the CNN article, they quote the TX Dept of Public Safety spokesperson who gave the briefing. So I would assume that's true because CNN is a pretty reliable source and they say where the information came from and it's the most recent version. The SRO wasn't there. 

Thanks Farrar, I was looking for that article and couldn't find it.   
 

[Rosie_0801]

On 5/26/2022 at 10:32 PM, Faith-manor said:

My nephew is one of these nuts. I told him he is crazy. If the big bad gubmint comes for him, they will drone strike his house, lob a shoulder launch bazooka into his house, or mow him down with a tank. He still doesn't get it.

More likely they'll just cut your food stamps.

[Faith-manor]

1 hour ago, hshibley said:

Yes here’s a link https://www.washingtonpost.com/education/2018/12/21/us-judge-says-law-enforcement-officers-had-no-legal-duty-protect-parkland-students-during-mass-shooting/

This is all so overwhelming. Police have no obligation to do anything. It makes you wonder what’s the point in having them involved. Parkland was one resource officer running for his car. This case police formed a perimeter blocking help while doing nothing. 

I am not sure at this point having a police force is doing us any good. Maybe a sheriff's department with detectives/investigators for after crimes are committed, serve warrants make arrests. No police department/patrol because if protect and serve is not an obligation, why bother? Why pay for it? We will get much further making our communities safer by diverting these resources to community mental health, community involvement, more social workers, more therapists, more counselors, more community sports and fine arts for our youth to occupy their time, more parental support, food, universal healthcare, more drug and alcohol rehab, more EMS, more Fire Department/Search and Rescue, smaller student to teacher ratio. If guns a blazing is required, call the national guard. I just don't see the value anymore. Really. It has reached that tipping point.

[Faith-manor]

LOL, Rosie despite his drinking, he maintains a good, well paid job. No food stamps or other public assistance to cut. I get where you are coming from though.

[prairiewindmomma]

The most common factor of mass shooters is that they hate women. In fact, many will shoot/kill a woman before going on to commit a mass killing spree.

Toxic patriarchal culture—another problem not cured by more guns. 

[hshibley]

Has anyone else read that there were 150 officers surrounding the school? Good guy with a gun myth must end. 

[denarii]

I hate to say it, because I hate to think about it, but if the majority of shots were fired when the shooter first entered the school and he was in there for an hour...

It's likely some of the children could have survived if the response had been faster. One hour is a very long time in a medical emergency.

😢

[ktgrok]

1 hour ago, Farrar said:

Yes. This.

And we wring our hands and wonder... Why does no one want to have children? Why are young people committing suicide? Why are people dropping out of society and productivity? Why are we not innovating like we used to? A society that kills its children has no right to a future.

I woke up and started sobbing the day after this happened, because I realized I'd woken up in a world where shooting children is an acceptable sacrifice. 

1 minute ago, denarii said:

I hate to say it, because I hate to think about it, but if the majority of shots were fired when the shooter first entered the school and he was in there for an hour...

It's likely some of the children could have survived if the response had been faster. One hour is a very long time in a medical emergency.

😢

This. At first, I thought, "oh, maybe he wasn't shooting anymore, and that's why they were comfortable waiting." then I realized that even if he wasn't shooting, kids were bleeding out inside. Kids they maybe could have saved. And again, was back to "wtf". 

[ktgrok]

My husband said he was surprised that in Texas, where so many have guns, that a parent didn't end up firing on the officers holding them back. 

[Drama Llama]

1 hour ago, kokotg said:

It's possible that it's just unrealistic to expect LEO to sacrifice more to protect our kids than we as a society are willing to do.

It's just teachers we expect that of.  And teachers have shown, over and over, that we are willing to do so.  

I would also be very surprised if there weren't teachers in that building, whose own children were in other rooms, and who made the choice to stay with their students to try their hardest to protect them.  

 

[Idalou]

3 hours ago, Ting Tang said:

Has anyone read an article that discusses an interview with this teenager’s father? If you can even try to fathom what kind of evil it takes to murder children in the way he did, the article was pretty revealing.  If there was a recipe to create a human who would commit such a horrific act, this “family” certainly followed it.  I’ll use that term loosely based on what I read. We can reinstate bans and pass laws that would address the means by which many of these school shootings are carried out, if enforced. There is definitely blame to go around. This teen was barely an adult. 

You can put the word family in quotation, but guess what- that was his family. There is plenty of blame from all of us, but your opinion, to me, is also lacking in empathy. Their family makeup is one that resembles many, many thousands of Americans. Some were given the really short stick in life, some were born into families struggling and failing, many have sub-par education,  and yes, some chose their path. Nothing takes away from his act, but we as a country have failed these families for generations. But I do understand your frustration.

Edited May 27, 2022 by Idalou

[mommyoffive]

1 hour ago, WildflowerMom said:

Last night, CNN had an article that said the SRO wasn't even there.  Has anyone also heard that? 

Questions arise over police delays with gunman inside school (msn.com)

As for the armed school officer, he was driving nearby but was not on campus when Ramos crashed his truck, according to a law enforcement official who was not authorized to discuss the case and spoke of condition of anonymity.

Investigators have concluded that school officer was not positioned between the school and Ramos, leaving him unable to confront the shooter before he entered the building, the law enforcement official said.

[ktgrok]

The 11 yr old who survived says the shooter shot out the window of the door to the classroom. if so, that puts the "couldn't get in' narrative of cops to bed. Not that I thought they couldn't get in anyway. 

[KSera]

2 hours ago, Farrar said:

 

Is it also actually best practice for kids to hide in locked down rooms? Like, seriously. Way back thread somewhere, people were talking about how the safest thing you can do is get OUT of the building. Is that true? Are there links for that?

Hiding has been shown to NOT be best practice, yet it’s still the standard in many (most?) schools. BaseballHockey detailed on the previous page some reasons why it’s hard/impossible to practice the run part of that, but I think the students should still be taught that that would be the first plan. If you search “Run, Hide, Fight” you will turn up a lot of resources. Here’s one from FEMA: https://community.fema.gov/ProtectiveActions/s/article/Active-Shooter-Run-Hide-Fight

https://community.fema.gov/ProtectiveActions/s/article/Active-Shooter

My dh has had to do trainings as a safety officer at work, and they are taught this as well—run, get out of the building if at all possible. Only hide if you can’t get out. As a last resort, fight 
 

https://safetyskills.com/active-shooter-run-hide-fight/

[WildflowerMom]

1 minute ago, mommyoffive said:

Questions arise over police delays with gunman inside school (msn.com)

As for the armed school officer, he was driving nearby but was not on campus when Ramos crashed his truck, according to a law enforcement official who was not authorized to discuss the case and spoke of condition of anonymity.

Investigators have concluded that school officer was not positioned between the school and Ramos, leaving him unable to confront the shooter before he entered the building, the law enforcement official said.

Thank you, mo5.  That's very helpful!  

no SRO    
no locked doors
18yo can't drink alcohol but buys 2 weapons of mass destruction within minutes 
Buys 375 rounds and no one bats an eye   
police wait for 40+ minutes for... what?  
There's multiple issues here.    

[Drama Llama]

1 hour ago, Farrar said:

 

Is it also actually best practice for kids to hide in locked down rooms? Like, seriously. Way back thread somewhere, people were talking about how the safest thing you can do is get OUT of the building. Is that true? Are there links for that? And if that's true, why don't we run shooter drills that way? Like a fire drill that involves getting out the building and literally leave the campus? (I mean, if we're going to run shooter drills at all, which I don't know that we even should.)

What I've been told, as a teacher, is that every situation is different.  Students at Stoneman Douglas were mowed down while evacuating through hallways, after smoke from the shooters gun triggered an alarm.  Evacuating wasn't the safer choice there.  I think the only way is for the adults to evaluate a situation and make the plan.   And while, I do think there are times when running makes sense, I think telling small children to ignore the adults and run every time is a terrible idea. 

As a teacher, I tell my students that in a lockdown we lock the door, together away from the windows, and then I'll tell them what we'll do next.  Maybe we'll run.  Maybe we'll stay hidden.  We practice the staying hidden part, and the eating the candy that I have to keep mouths quiet, in part because practicing those parts is safe, and because candy makes things better.  We learn a signal that means "copy me silently" and practice that. We don't practice climbing out windows or running away from the building, although at separate times we have evacuation drills where we travel to the location where we'd shelter if need be.   But we don't practice running.  We walk, we stay together, we look both ways when we cross the street.  We just show the kids the route and talk about how this is where we would go if we ever needed to, and it gives me (the special educator) the opportunity to review with teachers who will need to hold someone's hand, and check who has my phone number in their phone so they can text me "I have Johnny".  

I'll say that I have heard lots of stories about schools doing a terrible job of running drills, and doing them in super scary ways, and traumatizing kids.  But there are definitely ways to mitigate.  My students came to school having heard the stories.  They were traumatized by what they heard and saw on the media.  They want to know what I would do to keep them safe.  I tell them I have lots of ideas for keeping them safe, and that we'll practice a few.  That's not the traumatizing part.  I also tell them that while far too many kids died at Stoneman Douglas, or whatever shooting we're discussing (I mention Stoneman Douglas because it was a major event when I was teaching in person so it was the one we talked about the most), that more than 3,000 kids survived, and that I'll do everything in my power to make sure they are in that group.  

When I taught very little kids, we didn't talk about guns at all.  We talked about hide and seek.  We sat on the floor and I handed out marshmallows and told them to pretend they were camping, and we were all squeezed together in a tent.  I told them to be very quiet so they could listen for the owls and the birds on our pretend camping trip, or hear the story I was whispering, or play the "follow me" game I was playing.  And when we had real lockdowns (I have only experienced lockdowns due to gun violence in the community, not inside my school), we did the exact same things and played the exact same games. 

Is it OK that we need to do these things?  No, of course not.  Do we desperately need gun control?  Yes, of course we do.  

 

[Hilltopmom]

adding too-

my classroom is on the second floor- we have an escape window but it drops down to the parking lot. It’s for the fire dept to get us out with a ladder.

So we practice hiding in the corner for a lockdown.

Sending my kids down the staircase down the hall doesn’t seem safe either- if someone wanted to they could just shoot them all as we come down.

My own kids are in classrooms downstairs from me, but of course I would stay with my students even as I wondered about my own kids.

A school near us did an active shooter drill for the staff only on a development day. It was a disaster- they had to end it early when a teacher had a heart attack. Even though they knew it was a drill it was very realistic and scary with shots ringing out and “bad guys” holding teachers hostage. Not something to practice with kids for sure.

But again, let’s not blame the schools for this. It’s not the school’s fault.

[Happy2BaMom]

12 hours ago, Ausmumof3 said:

Maybe if military skills are required to be a teacher the military need to run the schools 😞 I’m sorry things are the way they are. 

 

The ironic thing is that the nobody more tightly regulates firearms than the US military. Dh is retired military. Every. Single. Gun. is carefully accounted for on a base, gets signed in, gets signed out. Extremely stringent restrictions on who can carry on base.

And these are trained soldiers.

It's all so effing ridiculous.

[Heartstrings]

From NY Times

When specially equipped federal immigration agents arrived at the elementary school in Uvalde, Texas on Tuesday, the local police at the scene would not allow them to go after the gunman who had opened fire on students inside the school, according to two officials briefed on the situation.

The agents from Border Patrol and Immigration and Customs Enforcement, arrived at some point between 12 p.m. and 12:10 p.m., according to the officials — far earlier than previously known. But they did not breach the adjoining classrooms of the school where the gunman had locked himself in until a little before 1 p.m. Members of the federal tactical team killed the gunman.

The Border Patrol and ICE agents did not understand why they were left to wait, according to the official. Eventually, the specialized Border Patrol team went into the building.

 

The federal officers had driven up from the Mexican border, one official said. The official said it was not clear to the federal agents why their team was needed, and why the local SWAT team did not respond.

 

https://www.nytimes.com/live/2022/05/27/us/texas-school-shooting/a-border-patrol-tactical-team-was-ordered-to-hold-back-before-confronting-the-gunman?smid=url-share

Edited May 27, 2022 by Heartstrings

[Grace Hopper]

1 hour ago, denarii said:

I hate to say it, because I hate to think about it, but if the majority of shots were fired when the shooter first entered the school and he was in there for an hour...

It's likely some of the children could have survived if the response had been faster. One hour is a very long time in a medical emergency.

😢

 

41 minutes ago, mommyoffive said:

Questions arise over police delays with gunman inside school (msn.com)

As for the armed school officer, he was driving nearby but was not on campus when Ramos crashed his truck, according to a law enforcement official who was not authorized to discuss the case and spoke of condition of anonymity.

Investigators have concluded that school officer was not positioned between the school and Ramos, leaving him unable to confront the shooter before he entered the building, the law enforcement official said.

News is changing so fast, but last I understood Ramos was outside the building for 12 minutes. That’s where he should have been stopped. Twelve minutes is plenty of time for the SRO to get in a position to intervene. Unless he was off premises, which I think should get him fired if that turns out to be the case. 

[Heartstrings]

Just now, Grace Hopper said:

 

News is changing so fast, but last I understood Ramos was outside the building for 12 minutes. That’s where he should have been stopped. Twelve minutes is plenty of time for the SRO to get in a position to intervene. Unless he was off premises, which I think should get him fired if that turns out to be the case. 

Sometimes are also showing that the school didn’t go into lockdown during those 12 minutes.    I’m just blown away by that.  What if all the classrooms had been locked?  Why?  

[Hilltopmom]

1 minute ago, Grace Hopper said:

 

News is changing so fast, but last I understood Ramos was outside the building for 12 minutes. That’s where he should have been stopped. Twelve minutes is plenty of time for the SRO to get in a position to intervene. Unless he was off premises, which I think should get him fired if that turns out to be the case. 

Many SROs are responsible for multiple different buildings across a district or spread out campus. Our district only had one SRO and they aren’t on campus full time. Buildings are 20 minutes apart on different ends of a rural area. 

[Pam in CT]

re the things that matter shrink, in proportion to things that ought not to

2 hours ago, TechWife said:

This is an excellent opinion piece...

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2022/05/uvalde-texas-robb-elementary-school-culture-death/638435/

 

2 hours ago, Farrar said:

Yes. This.

And we wring our hands and wonder... Why does no one want to have children? Why are young people committing suicide? Why are people dropping out of society and productivity? Why are we not innovating like we used to? A society that kills its children has no right to a future.

A society that kills its children, and also...

...maligns teachers as entitled unionizers who can't be trusted to choose developmentally appropriate picture books; and also

...maligns nurses as entitled unionizers determined to implant Soros microchips through injection..

...maligns women as too selfish to be trusted to make their own reproductive choices

 

but

which VALORIZES law enforcement, even as we 

2 hours ago, kokotg said:

It's possible that it's just unrealistic to expect LEO to sacrifice more to protect our kids than we as a society are willing to do. Like the model of individuals not being willing to give up anything to protect others while expecting some altruistic class of do gooders to give up everything is flawed somehow (I could make a lot of pandemic analogies here, and a lot of analogies in general, but I think they're fairly obvious). This is not to excuse what appears to have gone down, but the LEO are part of the society that we all collectively built. 

simultanteously cede any cultural expectation that LE serve and protect communities. Even the children.

 

It is overwhelming.

We cannot allow ourselves the luxury of retreating into overwhelmed paralysis.

The kids in our society DO deserve a future. They do. THEY DO.

THEY DO.

The lives of the kids in our society matter.

The futures of the kids in our society matter.

The education of the kids in our society matter.

The physical and mental health of the kids in our society matter.

The ability of the kids in our society to resolve conflict without violence, to navigate difference, to delay gratification, to sometimes put the interests of others above their individual wishes, matters.

 

Law enforcement is not obligated, as a matter of law or culture, to serve and protect the kids in our society.

BUT

WE

ARE.

 

 

[Hilltopmom]

My classroom door locks, in some schools  I’ve worked classroom doors always locked and shut per the rules . But, they have all been glass on the top half- you could just shoot your way in.

 

Edited May 27, 2022 by Hilltopmom

[KSera]

16 minutes ago, Pam in CT said:

The kids in our society DO deserve a future. They do. THEY DO.

THEY DO.

The lives of the kids in our society matter.

The futures of the kids in our society matter.

The education of the kids in our society matter.

The physical and mental health of the kids in our society matter.

Thank you for saying this. Most of us may have just a few decades left on Earth, but our kids are young and still have whole lives to live and I get frustrated to hear so many willing to give up and tell our already depressed and anxious kids that they are right to have no hope for the future and to decide not to have kids of their own. But they still have fifty plus years to live No wonder they’re depressed!

I have found my own young adults respond really positively to conversations about how optimistic I am that their generation is going to turn things around and change things. I really believe these kids have it in them to do that, and these kids believe it too. I think we really need to be projecting that optimism and trust to them. Right now sucks, but I really believe they are going to make it better. 

[Lillyfee]

41 minutes ago, Happy2BaMom said:

The ironic thing is that the nobody more tightly regulates firearms than the US military. Dh is retired military. Every. Single. Gun. is carefully accounted for on a base, gets signed in, gets signed out. Extremely stringent restrictions on who can carry on base.

And these are trained soldiers.

It's all so effing ridiculous.

I wanted to say that, too. 

A friends husband is a good guy but very emotional and yelled one time at his boss and went in his face. Within 30 minutes 4 guys were at his house taking every single gun (on base). When he got out of the military (he was in the process) they gave the guns back to him.

[Heartstrings]

1 minute ago, Lillyfee said:

I wanted to say that, too. 

A friends husband is a good guy but very emotional and yelled one time at his boss and went in his face. Within 30 minutes 4 guys were at his house taking every single gun (on base). When he got out of the military (he was in the process) they gave the guns back to him.

The issue is when these guys want to play at being a soldier. They can get the clothes, the patches, the gear and the GUNS without any of the accompanying discipline and structure.  Maybe we need to require 2 years of military service like other countries.    

[Farrar]

35 minutes ago, Grace Hopper said:

 

News is changing so fast, but last I understood Ramos was outside the building for 12 minutes. That’s where he should have been stopped. Twelve minutes is plenty of time for the SRO to get in a position to intervene. Unless he was off premises, which I think should get him fired if that turns out to be the case. 

Some schools don't have SRO's, some schools only have one and that person has to have some days off even if just for emergencies, and some SRO's cover multiple buildings or are only scheduled to be present during certain times. So I don't see this as shocking if they weren't there for a ton of reasons. Nor do I think having SRO's at all schools all the time necessarily prevents shootings. If they'd just gone in after him the minute they arrived, it might have been the best scenario even if there had been an SRO who was able to engage him on site. It was way more shocking that they called the guy a hero, said he'd gotten shot AND HE WASN'T THERE.

33 minutes ago, Heartstrings said:

Sometimes are also showing that the school didn’t go into lockdown during those 12 minutes.    I’m just blown away by that.  What if all the classrooms had been locked?  Why?  

Right?!? Like, by some timelines, it seems like they went into lockdown while he was outside (and that would make sense) and THEN he got into the building (and that doesn't make sense! because what kind of lockdown doesn't bother to lock any doors?!?).

And in others it seems like he went in and THEN they went into lockdown. If he was outside shooting people for 12 minutes, why the heck didn't they go into lockdown!? And then... does that imply that while he was barricading himself in the classroom, the office staff were tweeting that the school was on lockdown and students were safe? Like, WHAT? 

Either version of the timeline is disturbing to me.

[Elona]

I think they assumed that back door was locked, because they said it was always locked except when kids were leaving to get the bus. You'd think they would have checked it, but in a panic people miss things.

[WildflowerMom]

17 minutes ago, Heartstrings said:

The issue is when these guys want to play at being a soldier. They can get the clothes, the patches, the gear and the GUNS without any of the accompanying discipline and structure.  Maybe we need to require 2 years of military service like other countries.    

I’m not a military fan, in fact, I think a lot of our glorification of the military leads to this glorification of guns and that macho culture, frankly.  But I liked your post because I think most of these mass shooters would sh*t their pants in a basic training atmosphere and I’m here for it.  

[KSera]

1 minute ago, Elona said:

I think they assumed that back door was locked, because they said it was always locked except when kids were leaving to get the bus. You'd think they would have checked it, but in a panic people miss things.

This is how it sounds to me as well. It says a teacher had propped it open (I can't even go there to think what that teacher feels) and I'm thinking maybe they locked the front door but didn't know the back one was open. There are so many heartbreaking "what if" points along the way in this, but the bottom line being that this kind of outcome shouldn't hinge on all those "what ifs" going just right. It should be that unstable bad guys can't get guns in the first place, and then we don't have to worry about having multiple layers of protection being carried out exactly right in order for kids to go to school safely.

[KSera]

2 minutes ago, WildflowerMom said:

I think most of these mass shooters would sh*t their pants in a basic training atmosphere and I’m here for it.

That's the thing. All the gun nuts like to say "they just would have done it with a knife" but that's just not the case. These are not typically tough, strong, brave guys. These are guys who only need to be able to stand at a distance and pull a trigger. They were never going to engage in hand to hand combat.

[Ting Tang]

1 hour ago, Idalou said:

You can put the word family in quotation, but guess what- that was his family. There is plenty of blame from all of us, but your opinion, to me, is also lacking in empathy. Their family makeup is one that resembles many, many thousands of Americans. Some were given the really short stick in life, some were born into families struggling and failing, many have sub-par education,  and yes, some chose their path. Nothing takes away from his act, but we as a country have failed these families for generations. But I do understand your frustration.

I think many are to blame.  I think on an individual level, we have an obligation to ensure our children are brought up in loving environments.  Before he turned to this evil, it appears he was a victim of his circumstances.  Unfortunately, our systems for intervention don't function very well. Sometimes people want to help, but it seems impossible.  Of course, many despite their circumstances will never, ever carry out such an act. Yes, I am speaking from a point of frustration.  We are posting on an educational forum where people are already invested in the well-being of their children. 

Somehow solving that problem seems so hard.

I don't want to distract from things that can easily help and alleviate the numbers we've seen recently and make it just hard enough that some people will change their minds about what they are about to do.  The lifted bans can be reinstated.  Age limits can be increased (you can't rent a car until you're 25). I'm not well enough versed on everything, but I have read good ideas.  Maybe certain information shouldn't be so easily accessible on the Internet, either.  

 

 

 

 

[DawnM]

3 hours ago, Farrar said:

I'm just now coming back to this thread, but... the more that comes out about the misinformation from the spokespeople for the police and how long the shooter was in the building... I just... the mind boggles. I genuinely do not understand. WaPo has a list of all the things that have changed in the official account of what happened. They preface it by saying you expect in an event like this for the official account and the media to get some things wrong at first, but it seems especially striking. The list includes:

* No one tried to stop him from going inside like they said initially
* No school based police officer was shot or shot at, which is especially striking to me as they initially called that person a hero - that person who didn't even exist, I guess!?
* He was outside for at least 12 minutes so he didn't go right in as they initially said
* They said law enforcement pinned him down in the classroom, but then they changed it to say he barricaded himself in the classroom
* He wasn't wearing body armor
* They said the LEO's went right in, but then they said they didn't because of the gunfire

I just... do not get this at all. They didn't follow best practices. And they clearly knew people were upset and felt they needed to act because they were literally restraining people from going inside. Whether or not actual LEO's went in to rescue individual kids, it's definitely true that they handcuffed a parent who was trying to get past them to rescue a kid.

The more I hear the angrier I become.   No SRO on duty at the school, stupid police saving their own children and not allowing any of the other parents to save theirs, the fact that this guy went to FOUR DIFFERENT CLASSROOMS over the course of the LONG time he was in there, and all the things you mentioned.

This was a colossal screw up all the way around.

And let me tell you, I should not have to fear for my life making peanuts while parents complain constantly.    

[Elona]

9 minutes ago, KSera said:

This is how it sounds to me as well. It says a teacher had propped it open (I can't even go there to think what that teacher feels) and I'm thinking maybe they locked the front door but didn't know the back one was open.

There had been a school awards assembly in the morning, which some parents attended. I thought maybe that was why it would have been open or unlocked, but I am just guessing.

[Drama Llama]

1 hour ago, Grace Hopper said:

 

News is changing so fast, but last I understood Ramos was outside the building for 12 minutes. That’s where he should have been stopped. Twelve minutes is plenty of time for the SRO to get in a position to intervene. Unless he was off premises, which I think should get him fired if that turns out to be the case. 

I obviously don't know anything about Uvalde Texas policies, but elementary school SRO's in my area are shared between schools, and also need to attend meetings etc . . . at the police stations.  They also take leave for things like dentist appointments and their own children's field trips etc. . . .  I don't know anything about this officer, and maybe he is to blame, but I don't think we can automatically assume that being "off premises" means he did something wrong.

[Terabith]

2 minutes ago, Baseballandhockey said:

I obviously don't know anything about Uvalde Texas policies, but elementary school SRO's in my area are shared between schools, and also need to attend meetings etc . . . at the police stations.  They also take leave for things like dentist appointments and their own children's field trips etc. . . .  I don't know anything about this officer, and maybe he is to blame, but I don't think we can automatically assume that being "off premises" means he did something wrong.

I have no anger about him being off premises.  I'm concerned that they initially LIED and said that he engaged the shooter and called him a hero.  That's not just confusion about what went on in a chaotic situation, which would be completely understandable.  That is MAKING UP A STORY.  

[chiguirre]

19 minutes ago, KSera said:

That's the thing. All the gun nuts like to say "they just would have done it with a knife" but that's just not the case. These are not typically tough, strong, brave guys. These are guys who only need to be able to stand at a distance and pull a trigger. They were never going to engage in hand to hand combat.

Actually, that's happened (at my old high school). A kid couldn't get a gun so he brought 2 butcher knives to school and stabbed 20 people. Everyone survived.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franklin_Regional_High_School_stabbing

[Drama Llama]

2 minutes ago, Terabith said:

I have no anger about him being off premises.  I'm concerned that they initially LIED and said that he engaged the shooter and called him a hero.  That's not just confusion about what went on in a chaotic situation, which would be completely understandable.  That is MAKING UP A STORY.  

Well yeah, it's just not clear that the SRO is to blame in the lying.  Someone is though. 

[KSera]

1 minute ago, chiguirre said:

Actually, that's happened (at my old high school). A kid couldn't get a gun so he brought 2 butcher knives to school and stabbed 20 people. Everyone survived.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franklin_Regional_High_School_stabbing

Yeah, I had started to add something at the end about the fact that even in the rare cases when the perpetrator is someone who would choose an alternate weapon if guns weren't available, the damage they are able to do is so, so much less and it is easier for someone to take them down. I don't expect the swat team would have been scared to run in there with guns blazing if the shooter had a knife rather than a gun (and one with high capacity at that).

[bolt.]

4 minutes ago, Terabith said:

I have no anger about him being off premises.  I'm concerned that they initially LIED and said that he engaged the shooter and called him a hero.  That's not just confusion about what went on in a chaotic situation, which would be completely understandable.  That is MAKING UP A STORY.  

In the time-honoured ways of gossip everywhere, things 'become' believable even when they start as simple speculation. It's like the game "telephone"

All one person has to say would be something like, "I wonder if the SRO was at the door. Did anyone see them? I'll bet they probably did something heroic." And the next person would say, "I bet the SRO tried to stop the shooter. Too bad they got past them." And the next person would say, "I heard the shooter got past the SRO, but they tried to stop him, were they armed? I bet that means they used their gun." And the next person would say...

Nobody needs to actively 'make up a story' for these things to shift in the telling. It's super common for rumors to transition from "I wonder if..." to "I heard somebody did..."

[Lillyfee]

34 minutes ago, WildflowerMom said:

I’m not a military fan, in fact, I think a lot of our glorification of the military leads to this glorification of guns and that macho culture, frankly.  But I liked your post because I think most of these mass shooters would sh*t their pants in a basic training atmosphere and I’m here for it.  

I am not a military fan neither but there is one thing I need to say about the US military: If my country would ever be occupied by any military ever again I want it to be the US military because even though it is not perfect they have their morals straight and they do a really good job training their people. Better than any other military I know...

Edited May 27, 2022 by Lillyfee

[Terabith]

Just now, bolt. said:

In the time-honoured ways of gossip everywhere, things 'become' believable even when they start as simple speculation. It's like the game "telephone"

All one person has to say would be something like, "I wonder if the SRO was at the door. Did anyone see them? I'll bet they probably did something heroic." And the next person would say, "I bet the SRO tried to stop the shooter. Too bad they got past them." And the next person would say, "I heard the shooter got past the SRO, but they tried to stop him, were they armed? I bet that means they used their gun." And the next person would say...

Nobody needs to actively 'make up a story' for these things to shift in the telling. It's super common for rumors to transition from "I wonder if..." to "I heard somebody did..."

True

[Heartstrings]

The chief of police of the school district, who was the incident commander, told Border Patrol agents along with other law enforcement that arrived to hold back from engaging the gunman, Mr. McCraw said, apparently believing the suspect had barricaded himself in the classroom and “there were no kids at risk.” One 911 caller said at 12:16 p.m. that eight or nine students were still alive in the classroom; it was unclear how many of these were killed before police finally breached the door at 12:50 p.m., after having gotten a key from a janitor.

 

https://www.nytimes.com/live/2022/05/27/us/texas-school-shooting/gunman-fired-more-than-100-rounds-police-said?smid=url-share

 

 

Through malice or ignorance the local police acted as security FOR the shooter.  The didn’t act themselves then willfully stopped both parents and Feds who were willing to go in.  
 

The whole department should be disband and every officer black listed.  
 

Delayed medical care by an hour!!! 

Edited May 27, 2022 by Heartstrings