Parenting advice appreciated

[JustEm]

Some of my kids but one in particular has the habit of doing something to someone impulsively, today it was flick their nose, and then when confronted about why they did it response, 'I thought it would be funny.'  Then shows zero remorse for hurting the other person because they 'didn't mean to hurt them.'  

This has been an ongoing issue but certainly not daily.  My children rarely purposely inflict pain on one another.  So, the only real time they hurt someone else is when they impulsively do something like this. Or when they retaliate after someone has impulsively hurt them. And I just don't know how to handle it anymore.

We don't really do punishments in this house.  We try to solve conflict by discussing them but no amount of talking has solved this issue.  I am out of ideas so any help would be appreciated.

As of right now the child in question has to stay in my sight since he doesn't seem to think he did anything wrong since he didn't mean to hurt his sister by flicking her nose and I can't trust that he won't hurt someone again.  

[Harriet Vane]

Someone dear to me has this issue. There is an assumption that if there was no intent, there was no harm. Attempts to educate this person have never gone well, but I do try to show this person that one has a responsibility for harm that is caused even with no intent. 

[Brittany1116]

Does this child have adequate time and space daily for physical exertion?

[prairiewindmomma]

1. Is this person of a developmental age to be able to predict consequences like the other person feeling hurt by a flicked nose (ie--older than kindergarten or so?)?

2. Does ADHD run in the family at all, or do you see signs of it in this particular kid? Deliberately annoying someone & impulsive behavior are both on the Vanderbilt screening test, IIRC.

 

ETA: These two things matter a lot as to how I would respond because a neurotypical 14 yo doing this is going to be handled differently than an energetic and possibly 6 year old, iykwim.  In the latter scenario I would be coaching around perspective taking and impulse control.  The impulse control is harder to manage, fwiw.

Iwould be saying something like, "Wow, Person A really didn't like having their nose flicked.  When you wanted to flick their nose, what were you thinking? You thought it would be fun, right? What do you think the other person would feel? (coach through possible responses)  Sometimes we aren't very good at predicting how another person might respond. When we guess wrong, we can change our behavior.  Has anyone ever done something to you that you didn't like? How did you feel? One of the things we can do is say we are sorry even when we made a mistake in predicting how someone would respond because it doesn't feel good when someone accidentally hurts our nose.  When we're done talking, I would like you to apologize to person A.  What else might we do in the future? We might be better at predicting how someone is going to respond and if we don't know that they are going to think if that is fun, we might not do that thing. What else could you have done instead when you REALLY wanted to flick their nose?

Edited March 2, 2022 by prairiewindmomma

[JustEm]

5 minutes ago, Brittany1116 said:

Does this child have adequate time and space daily for physical exertion?

yes 

[JustEm]

5 minutes ago, prairiewindmomma said:

1. Is this person of a developmental age to be able to predict consequences like the other person feeling hurt by a flicked nose (ie--older than kindergarten or so?)?

2. Does ADHD run in the family at all, or do you see signs of it in this particular kid? Deliberately annoying someone & impulsive behavior are both on the Vanderbilt screening test, IIRC.

1. yes, 9 years old.

2. No, adhd doesn't run in the family and I have never suspected it with this child. while he does deliberately annoy people and is impulsive it isn't to an excessive amount or anything that I'm overly concerned about.  It is more the reaction and behavior once he realizes his actions weren't appreciated by the other person.  He really double downs and gets upset that they feel wronged.

[JustEm]

13 minutes ago, Harriet Vane said:

Someone dear to me has this issue. There is an assumption that if there was no intent, there was no harm. Attempts to educate this person have never gone well, but I do try to show this person that one has a responsibility for harm that is caused even with no intent. 

sorry you have to deal with this as well. It is not easy.

[prairiewindmomma]

FWIW, because I have to dash and do some other stuff, if there was any indication of adhd I would seriously consider doing a screening with a ped now.  Oftentimes people won't screen their kids ages 6-9, chalking it up to an active little kid, but these kinds of impulsive actions really have social consequences.  Oftentimes people will wait until kid is age 10-12, finally get them onto meds, and kid can finally control their brain....but by the time that has happened, they have internalized a lot of messaging about themselves---negative messaging---because they've had years of adults scolding them, and other kids rejecting them because those behaviors can come across as that kid just kind of being a jerk/being badly behaved/being too wild & crazy, etc.

Not every kid has adhd, and the impact of impulsive behavior isn't huge for everyone, but this is apparently a big enough deal that you're dealing with it regularly and it is something you're asking for help/support on. If it's at that level, then it is significant.

[prairiewindmomma]

I just saw you posted a response---I will try to loop back and read it later. Sorry!

[kbutton]

Deleting. Too personal.

Every family I know that deals with this has some degree of ADHD in the house. The ones who don't medicate seem to have issues far longer. 

We had the I don't have to apologize because it was an accident thing, but not in this context. It was for things like truly accidentally bumping into someone, etc. We simply explained that it was the nice thing to do, and it is not equivalent to confessing a misdeed. It's just a polite ritual, and it acknowledges that something happened. That was an easy solution, though I know some people have issues with this. 

Edited March 2, 2022 by kbutton

[kbutton]

14 minutes ago, hjffkj said:

It is more the reaction and behavior once he realizes his actions weren't appreciated by the other person.  He really double downs and gets upset that they feel wronged.

It's hard when kids are embarrassed at their own impulsivity. Sometimes providing a way to back down is helpful (my creative juices aren't coming up with anything right now, though I have had to do this in the past for lots of behaviors). If that doesn't work, I think it's worth talking to a counselor. That might seem like overkill, but hopefully a counselor would help them see that their behavior is anti-social and perhaps be able to discern why the child is doing it in the first place (which then goes toward ADHD if it's present or other issues that might be present). 

I will also mention that if there is a negative dynamic (purposeful or not) with the other child (even if it doesn't seem negative to you), this could be a passive-aggressive way of dealing with it. Even jealousy could be behind it (they seem to be able to keep their hands to themselves, and I cannot). It could be that the other child is doing things that this child finds annoying but isn't able to verbalize--the "annoying" thing is totally in the eye of the beholder and doesn't have to be "valid" to create a conundrum for the child who is doing the impulsive stuff.

If it's something like this, then the child might need better communication skills. Some kids literally don't realize the why of something for weeks or even months if they can't articulate it. And it's truly down to a language processing issue. They just know that they are upset, they can't communicate why (or communicate it effectively in a way that makes the parent teach a skill or intervene in some way that WORKS), so they do something to make themselves feel better. Then they sometimes regret it.

**ETA: I thought of a "for instance" about this child being possibly annoyed by the other(s)...one of them could be doing something that the impulsive kid perceives as erratic, so responding with other erratic behavior seems reasonably to them. The adults aren't seeing the other behavior or not perceiving it the same way (it's not physical, it happens out of view, it's considered harmless, it wouldn't annoy the adult and is just fooling around, etc.). It doesn't even have to be "bad" behavior--it just has to be something that creates an imbalance or annoyance in the impulsive kid. Anyway, it could be that the impulsive kid is missing a social cue or has attributed this behavior to something not logical to others, but if you ask just right, it could give the impulsive kids words to express something like this. It can also be nothing, but when my expressive language disorder kiddo was little, this was a major issue. His language issues were super narrow but deep. If someone gave the opening, he could often grasp at his few straws until we could figure something out. 

Edited March 2, 2022 by kbutton

[HS Mom in NC]

I appreciate avoiding punishment as a policy, but I have to say it out loud: there are some people who only respond to consequences.  So if you've tried talk and reason consistently for this issue, I think you need implement some immediate consequences quite rigidly. It's a, "Can you hear me now?" approach. Will it transform their souls and make them empathetic?  No, but you've already tried that.  Also, this is a demonstration of reality.  As my mother would say, "If you choose not to control yourself, someone else will control you." That's how law enforcement works.  We can't continue to allow harm to the innocent because we're still trying to convince the guilty to change their ways.  If the guilty simply won't think of others for motivation, then appealing to self-interest for motivation may be your only option left.

[catz]

Maybe this won't be helpful for you at all.  But my oldest attended school for 2 years.  And the only behavoiral thing we ever had with him was him hugging his friends during recess.  jWhich is not a big deal, but it was a good reminder to get him thinking about boundaries and personal space.  At that time, we talked about everyone having a bubble and you may not enter anyone else's bubble without asking.  So if you haven't talked about personal space this way, that may be something to try and really serves all kids to know that it is just basically unacceptable to touch a sibling or a peer without their explicit permission.  

Impulse control comes earlier to some kids than others, sometimes time is needed to make these kind of connections.  We weren't huge on punishments at our house either, but sometimes a quick round of take your favorite currency worked well (like X behavoir means no technology for the day was one of my kid's currency).  

[wendyroo]

The first thing I do is remove ambiguity from expectations.

While most kids probably can manage to touch and physically interact with their siblings without too much injury or strife, mine simply can't. "Not too hard", "not that close to her eyes", "not in a way he won't like" are just far too ambiguous and confusing. So for my kids the rule is simple and clear cut - you may not touch your siblings at all without asking for and receiving explicit consent from them.

This entirely removes "excuses" like 'I thought it would be funny' or 'I didn't mean to hurt them.'  Those don't matter; you are simply not allowed to touch them unless they say you can.

And then I lay out, and follow through on, consistent consequences every time they break that clear-cut rule. As you mentioned, one of our consequences has always been restricted movement. If you cannot follow the rule near your siblings then you will have to stay near me and separated from them. The second part of the consequence is writing an apology if they hurt/startled/upset a sibling (assuming the perpetrator is old enough for writing). The apology must 1) show perspective taking and 2) lay out an action plan that will hopefully avoid a repeat occurrence. Sometimes I need to help them think through those issues. Other time, I help them ask the sibling what exactly they didn't like about the action. In the nose tweaking incident, I would expect them to write that they understand now that what they did hurt the sibling's nose, and that next time they want to be funny they will choose a different action like tickling and ask the other person first if it is okay.

[Clarita]

34 minutes ago, hjffkj said:

It is more the reaction and behavior once he realizes his actions weren't appreciated by the other person.  He really double downs and gets upset that they feel wronged.

I agree with what @wendyroo said. I just wanted to add I would rephrase that he was wrong into a person got hurt and that's not OK. Especially since he's doubling down on that he wasn't "wrong". 

Also I don't know when developmentally kids feel remorse (I mean my 3.5 year old isn't there yet and I think my 5 year old only feels remorse about getting caught). I have just given up on remorse being something to keep a person away from doing something. I just set if someone isn't happy about something that is "fun" or "all in jest" we reevaluate what we are doing. I tell them they can remove themselves from the situation or attack an inanimate object if they feel questionable urges. 

I also started implementing new consequence/punishment for my kids when they are too rambunctious called running 5 laps outside or batting/throwing/kicking a ball 10 times or 3 big screams outside/into a pillow. Depending on their infraction. 

 

[Katy]

I have one child that doesn't respond to positive parenting, but he does respond well to natural consequences. "When you thump someone who asked you to stop, you go to your room for 9 minutes," (their age). It's not really a punishment, the stuff in his room is better than the stuff in the family room.  But separating them does end the behavior for the day most of the time.  When not, I would suspect they either need some energy ran off or they need to go to bed or they are hangry or something like that.

I have yet to see a "positive parenting expert" that has more than one very quiet, sensitive, and agreeable boy.  I can consider that the idea that punishment doesn't work (there are plenty of studies that suggest that) and still give natural consequences in a cheerful way.  IE: "You want to thump someone?  Thump me!  I'm going to thump you!  (playful, soft thump). You didn't listen when your sister said to stop so you need to go to your room for a nine minutes but I'm going to tickle you when you get there! Or before!"

Also with my two that fall into this pattern I've noted that sometimes the "victim" is being really dramatic. Which is a different thing to reign in.  I am not so good at playfully redirecting high pitched whiny screeches though, so I don't have advice.

Edited March 2, 2022 by Katy

[barnwife]

OMG, I sympathize with you. I have one who especially likes to double down when corrected (in our case, it's usually saying mean things that the child struggles with). I fully admit that I don't always handle it well.

Lately I've been going with saying something along the lines of "wow...that doesn't sound like kind words (or like you being your best, which we talk about a lot). You can choose to stop talking, or leave the room."

But, I wouldn't say it's made it happen less often.

 

[wendyroo]

3 minutes ago, Katy said:

Also with my two that fall into this pattern I've noted that sometimes the "victim" is being really dramatic. Which is a different thing to reign in.  I am not so good at playfully redirecting high pitched whiny screeches though, so I don't have advice.

I see this as well, and find that separating the kids often acts as a deterrent to playing the victim as well.

If Elliot (my biggest impulsive culprit by a 1000), grabs Audrey's ankles "so she can pull him", and Audrey (my biggest dramatic "victim") screams bloody murder about it, she will be bumming just as much as he will when I separate them. As much as she proclaims that she hated him grabbing her ankles, and he hurt her, and she doesn't want to play with him, it is all a load of BS and what she really doesn't want is to be on her own with no one to react dramatically to.

But Elliot broke the rule by touching her without permission, so he has to hang out with me, and Audrey is doomed to boredom. I spend considerable amounts of time coaching both of them on how much fun they could have if Elliot asked Audrey if she wanted to play before touching her, and Audrey agreed instead of shrieking about pretend injuries and injustices. It is a work in progress...slow, slow, slow progress.

[Lisa]

Many times when my boys did something they shouldn't have, I had them do physical exercise, jumping jacks, push-ups, sit-ups, run up and down the stairs or even run around the house outside. It wasn't a punishment, although some of them may have seen as such, but a way to redirect their attention, get the ants out of their pants and perhaps make them think about their actions and how they should respond differently next time. I'm not talking about extreme exercise, but maybe 10 jumping jacks, sit-ups or push-ups.

All kids make poor decisions at times. Flicking someone's nose can really hurt. The offending kid should apologize to the offended and not just with a quick "I'm sorry", but a more genuine, "I'm sorry. Will you forgive me?"  Apologizing is easy, asking for forgiveness is not. When one asks for forgiveness, that person has to have a degree of humility to admit one did something wrong.

Hugs! Parenting is so hard!!! Only by the grace of God can we get through!!

Edited March 2, 2022 by Lisa

[thewellerman]

I separate behavior from character in incidents like these.  If had the necessary empathetic skills, he wouldn't have done it, or he would have apologized already.  I would just roll my eyes and tell him to stop, empathize a little with the victim, separate them if I had to, and make a mental note to incorporate more social awareness discussion.  

If think sometimes boys react so strongly to this type of correction because they feel deeper than they want to let on.  Other times, I've noticed boys interact differently with each other, and, in my experience, tend to be a little more like puppies.  One goes too far, the other gives a little bite, and that's the end, no morality or character discussion involved.  So, when I want to move to thoughts and feelings, my boys just don't see the point.  

[prairiewindmomma]

Looping back in--- ITA with those who are pointing out the benefits of a "no touching without consent" rule and physical separation.

[fairfarmhand]

2 hours ago, wendyroo said:

The first thing I do is remove ambiguity from expectations.

While most kids probably can manage to touch and physically interact with their siblings without too much injury or strife, mine simply can't. "Not too hard", "not that close to her eyes", "not in a way he won't like" are just far too ambiguous and confusing. So for my kids the rule is simple and clear cut - you may not touch your siblings at all without asking for and receiving explicit consent from them.

This entirely removes "excuses" like 'I thought it would be funny' or 'I didn't mean to hurt them.'  Those don't matter; you are simply not allowed to touch them unless they say you can.

And then I lay out, and follow through on, consistent consequences every time they break that clear-cut rule. As you mentioned, one of our consequences has always been restricted movement. If you cannot follow the rule near your siblings then you will have to stay near me and separated from them. The second part of the consequence is writing an apology if they hurt/startled/upset a sibling (assuming the perpetrator is old enough for writing). The apology must 1) show perspective taking and 2) lay out an action plan that will hopefully avoid a repeat occurrence. Sometimes I need to help them think through those issues. Other time, I help them ask the sibling what exactly they didn't like about the action. In the nose tweaking incident, I would expect them to write that they understand now that what they did hurt the sibling's nose, and that next time they want to be funny they will choose a different action like tickling and ask the other person first if it is okay.

This.

My policy is do not touch anyone else without permission. Because it can go south SOOOOO quickly. 

And honestly, I do want my son to get in the habit of asking before he touches anyone. 

3 hours ago, hjffkj said:

.  It is more the reaction and behavior once he realizes his actions weren't appreciated by the other person.  He really double downs and gets upset that they feel wronged.

Some of this may be developmental. 

My kids did better with this kind of thing when they were a bit older.

And sadly, it was after they were the recipient of someone else who was the exact same way. A kid who would make jokes at their expense ("can't you take a joke? I was just kidding.") Or someone else who would get overly rambunctious at an activity and throw a ball or something entirely too hard. 

[Tanaqui]

I appreciate wanting to avoid punishments as much as possible, but in this case, given that it's an ongoing issue and other methods haven't worked, I think an unambiguous rule with a clear consequence is called for: no touching other people without asking and getting permission first, if you violate that rule then you get a short time-out at the kitchen table (or somewhere else non-stimulating) and have to apologize.

But... nine really ought to be old enough to understand to keep your hands to yourself, and to have some basic impulse control, and to understand "I didn't mean to hurt her, I thought it was funny" is a terrible defense.

If a clear-cut rule and consequence doesn't work, then please revisit the idea that there's something else going on. ADHD seems possible  with the lack of impulse control.

[Clarita]

4 hours ago, hjffkj said:

We try to solve conflict by discussing them but no amount of talking has solved this issue.

This worked wonders for me and it works fairly well with my little girl. She doesn't tend to get stuck trying to be right. My son responds much better to natural consequences. Even in our discussions, telling him the consequences of his actions to him are much more effective than telling him how he is causing consequence to someone else. (Not saying this is a boy/girl issue that just happened that way with my kids.)

If you are more into the "positive parenting" thing and not random punishments, you can try to Amy McCready. For me she has done a good job balancing "positive parenting" with kids who are less compliant. 

[BusyMom5]

I'm the only one thinking this was done completely on purpose and the explanation was clearly made up in an effort to not get in trouble????  My kid would be in trouble.  9 is too big to be putting your hands on others to hurt them- and flicking the nose hurts!  The only exception I would make is a child who previously dealt with impulse control (have one of those) and even then, they would still be in trouble bc its not okay to hurt others, even if its an impulse.  I'd probably have them do some extra nice things for the person they hurt, apologize- completely- meaning "I am sorry I flicked your nose.  It hurt you and I was wrong to hurt you."  I'd also implement some you must be in my eyesight bc I cannot trust you to behave time.  In extreme cases, I've had them do research on how their actions can hurt.

Signed

A mom of twin boys who know how to annoy younger and older sisters- and me!

[JustEm]

2 minutes ago, BusyMom5 said:

I'm the only one thinking this was done completely on purpose and the explanation was clearly made up in an effort to not get in trouble????  My kid would be in trouble.  9 is too big to be putting your hands on others to hurt them- and flicking the nose hurts!  The only exception I would make is a child who previously dealt with impulse control (have one of those) and even then, they would still be in trouble bc its not okay to hurt others, even if its an impulse.  I'd probably have them do some extra nice things for the person they hurt, apologize- completely- meaning "I am sorry I flicked your nose.  It hurt you and I was wrong to hurt you."  I'd also implement some you must be in my eyesight bc I cannot trust you to behave time.  In extreme cases, I've had them do research on how their actions can hurt.

Signed

A mom of twin boys who know how to annoy younger and older sisters- and me!

 

Well yeah the flicking of the nose was done completely on purpose, he never denied that.  But he really didn't intent to hurt her, he simply didn't think ahead of time.  That is not his MO when he is trying to hide the truth.  If that were the case he would have started the conversation by angrily telling me that she kicked him, which she did after the flicking.  If he wants to hide the truth he blame shifts and tries to give just enough info to make the other person seem to be at fault.  But he didn't do that. He simply didn't think what the reaction to him flicking her would be and then when he got a negative response from her he went in his defensive mode.

[JustEm]

Thank you all.  To address the no touching without consent.  The hard thing about that is that we really are a loving and affectionate family.  So, a random loving arm around a sibling's shoulder while walking or using their shoulder as a pillow while watching tv isn't uncommon in this house.  Those are never met with anger or annoyance because they don't do those things in a pestering way and are good at reading when they'd be appreciated.  I value that they have that type of comfortable relationship with each other.  So, the idea of implementing no touching at all instead of directly addressing the issue of impulsively touching in a harmful way is hard to grasp. I will certainly think about it as nothing else seems to be working well.

I mean they see their dad and I show affection without verbal consent daily: hugging from behind while one of us does dishes, just walking up and kissing the other, grabbing the other person's hand while walking, etc.  All positive interactions never any negative touching (that sounds silly to me.)

[wendyroo]

Just now, hjffkj said:

Thank you all.  To address the no touching without consent.  The hard thing about that is that we really are a loving and affectionate family.  So, a random loving arm around a sibling's shoulder while walking or using their shoulder as a pillow while watching tv isn't uncommon in this house.  Those are never met with anger or annoyance because they don't do those things in a pestering way and are good at reading when they'd be appreciated.  I value that they have that type of comfortable relationship with each other.  So, the idea of implementing no touching at all instead of directly addressing the issue of impulsively touching in a harmful way is hard to grasp. I will certainly think about it as nothing else seems to be working well.

I mean they see their dad and I show affection without verbal consent daily: hugging from behind while one of us does dishes, just walking up and kissing the other, grabbing the other person's hand while walking, etc.  All positive interactions never any negative touching (that sounds silly to me.)

Obviously, no touching without consent is only required in certain situations and between certain people. I hug my mom without asking, but I would not reach over and fix my daughter's friend's ponytail without asking if she wanted my help.

I would not approach it as "this is the new law of the land and shall be forevermore". But right now, one child is having a hard time with perspective taking, social cues, and impulse control. Implementing a no touching without consent rule for him could reduce stress for him and his siblings until his brain has matured a bit more. And it would not mean he couldn't throw an arm around their shoulder, just force his brain to pause long enough to ask if that is okay with them. Yes, that pause will be an inconvenience during some amiable interactions, but it is training him to pause for that instant that will allow him to evaluate and regulate his unwanted behaviors. And then 3 or 6 or 12 months down the road, if he has curbed some of his impulsive touching, then you can try relaxing the rule and seeing how he does managing it without as much structure.

[catz]

With regards to having personal boundaries, we were also a very hands on huggy family when my kids were young.  Asking permission does not mean no touching by any stretch.  It means saying things like "can I sit next to you?", "Do you want to wrestle?", "Do you want a hug?".  I don't know how old your kids are but this skill set really does serve kids as you move into the teen years and as they have broader peer groups.  Like my very huggy kids became a little prickly about hands on affection or younger kids in their space during puberty and I started to ask too unless they sidled up to me.  We'd talk about personal space in a way to encourage empathy.  Kids that didn't develop these boundaries became not super fun to hang around with.  I used to be on leadership at co-op for older kids and some of the biggest problems we had was with kids who didn't respect other's kid's personal space.  And it wasn't ever a malicious thing.  Kids thought they were being funny and didn't have good impulse control.

That doesn't mean I'm constantly asking my spouse permissions, etc.  It does mean we respect each other's boundaries.  

Edited March 3, 2022 by catz

[Harriet Vane]

I'll add a little more perspective.

The person that I know who struggles with this oversteps boundaries out of a fateful combination of enthusiasm and insensitivity. This person is a bull in a china shop. This person takes things just a step too far and has no idea why anyone would be upset. 

This person grew up with parents who avoid confrontation and displays of unhappy or negative emotions. So while this person grew up with affection, this person also has a deeply ingrained feeling that displays of unhappy or negative emotions are inappropriate or just plain wrong. 

So when someone's feelings are hurt due to insensitivity or when games are just a little too crazy and someone gets hurt, this person perceives the victim as wrong for expressing so much negativity. After all, this person never meant any harm. 

This person also feels deeply that an accusation from a victim is not simply, "You did this and it hurt." Rather, this person perceives an accusation as, "You are not a good person." So this person digs down and denies, because admitting to being wrong = admitting to being evil inside.

The person that I know who struggles with this absolutely does not have ADHD, though I do not discount what the others have said about those possibilities. Just trying to give another perspective on the thinking that may fuel this type of behavior.

[HS Mom in NC]

I need to advocate for the victims here.  Sometimes when parents haven't implemented an effective strategy to reign in the behavior, the victims aren't being dramatic about the flick or ankle grabbing or whatever, they're accurately voicing their level of justified frustration that this hasn't been dealt with effectively enough and they're tired of being the one who has to deal with it.  They don't usually have the words for it, but I think it's clear. I know that's hard to hear, especially for people who really really really want to be gentle parents or no punishment parents, but the fact is, not every parenting strategy works for every kid.

We're talking about the keep your hands/body to yourself rule for kids in mid to late elementary.  As stated upthread, that's late. That should've been mastered by now. Something needed to change a while ago.  I'm not qualified to say if it's the parenting approach or if something neurologically atypical is going on and needs treatment, but whatever has to happen, make it happen. So many adult sibling relationships are non-existent or low quality  because parents didn't deal with things that needed dealing with, and the sibling dynamic wasn't able to grow and develop into a close bond.

There was a kid in my older daughters' church youth group whose parents (pastor and his wife) couldn't seem to manage teaching him to keep his hands to himself.  His two older brothers (2 and 4 years older) finally had to step in and do the parenting their parents couldn't seem to manage.  When little brother plopped himself in some girl's personal space and put his arm around her and she recoiled and looked uncomfortable, one of the older brothers would walk over, grab little brother's  arm, pull it off, move him away,  and say in a firm voice, "She doesn't want you to do that. Keep your hands to yourself." Little brother would play the "I was just kidding" card. He was the class clown type-his parents thought it was amusing because they bought into that dumb "birth order" nonsense about the baby being the family mascot.   Class clowns are anything but. Little brother would punch girls in the shoulder "slug bug style" when that kind of car went by even though none were playing slug bug. He'd walk up behind them and cover their eyes with his hands, always to be funny or as a joke.  His brothers would call him out on it loudly in front of everyone. It was nuts they had to do it, but the older boys understood how awful the behavior was. Other parents in the group, including a wife of the elders, would talk among themselves about how long it would be until little brother sexually assaulted some poor girl and his parents would be surprised it happened, but no one else would be.

[Katy]

17 minutes ago, HS Mom in NC said:

I need to advocate for the victims here.  Sometimes when parents haven't implemented an effective strategy to reign in the behavior, the victims aren't being dramatic about the flick or ankle grabbing or whatever, they're accurately voicing their level of justified frustration that this hasn't been dealt with effectively enough and they're tired of being the one who has to deal with it.  They don't usually have the words for it, but I think it's clear. I know that's hard to hear, especially for people who really really really want to be gentle parents or no punishment parents, but the fact is, not every parenting strategy works for every kid.

We're talking about the keep your hands/body to yourself rule for kids in mid to late elementary.  As stated upthread, that's late. That should've been mastered by now. Something needed to change a while ago.  I'm not qualified to say if it's the parenting approach or if something neurologically atypical is going on and needs treatment, but whatever has to happen, make it happen. So many adult sibling relationships are non-existent or low quality  because parents didn't deal with things that needed dealing with, and the sibling dynamic wasn't able to grow and develop into a close bond.

There was a kid in my older daughters' church youth group whose parents (pastor and his wife) couldn't seem to manage teaching him to keep his hands to himself.  His two older brothers (2 and 4 years older) finally had to step in and do the parenting their parents couldn't seem to manage.  When little brother plopped himself in some girl's personal space and put his arm around her and she recoiled and looked uncomfortable, one of the older brothers would walk over, grab little brother's  arm, pull it off, move him away,  and say in a firm voice, "She doesn't want you to do that. Keep your hands to yourself." Little brother would play the "I was just kidding" card. He was the class clown type-his parents thought it was amusing because they bought into that dumb "birth order" nonsense about the baby being the family mascot.   Class clowns are anything but. Little brother would punch girls in the shoulder "slug bug style" when that kind of car went by even though none were playing slug bug. He'd walk up behind them and cover their eyes with his hands, always to be funny or as a joke.  His brothers would call him out on it loudly in front of everyone. It was nuts they had to do it, but the older boys understood how awful the behavior was. Other parents in the group, including a wife of the elders, would talk among themselves about how long it would be until little brother sexually assaulted some poor girl and his parents would be surprised it happened, but no one else would be.

I don't deny this is true, but since I've heard the exact same whiny screams when the brother she is blaming is NO WHERE near her (IE: he was standing next to me in the kitchen and she was alone) on many occasions, I'm not inclined to believe the drama unless I witness it.  It's not a judgment of her, I was an over-dramatic kid too. I'm pretty sure both of these kids have ADHD and might need medicating if they were in school. And she's in the habit of blaming the sibling she has the most conflict with for EVERYTHING frustrating in her life.

And as an aside, 9 is usually about the age when boys behavior gets difficult.  It's the last hurrah before puberty shuts down their impulse control. I wouldn't assume a boy having worse impulse control than typical at the beginning of puberty EITHER should know better OR doesn't have ADHD.

[HS Mom in NC]

5 minutes ago, Katy said:

I don't deny this is true, but since I've heard the exact same whiny screams when the brother she is blaming is NO WHERE near her (IE: he was standing next to me in the kitchen and she was alone) on many occasions, I'm not inclined to believe the drama unless I witness it.  It's not a judgment of her, I was an over-dramatic kid too. I'm pretty sure both of these kids have ADHD and might need medicating if they were in school. And she's in the habit of blaming the sibling she has the most conflict with for EVERYTHING frustrating in her life.

And as an aside, 9 is usually about the age when boys behavior gets difficult.  It's the last hurrah before puberty shuts down their impulse control. I wouldn't assume a boy having worse impulse control than typical at the beginning of puberty EITHER should know better OR doesn't have ADHD.

I wouldn't say your response reads to me like you really get it. I stand by what I said-You might be hearing her frustration with the situation as a whole, not a reaction to a compartmentalized incident. I know it's hard to hear.  Do with that information what you will, but it needs to be said out loud.

I have brothers and grew up in a neighborhood with almost all boys. My girls have been around boys their ages.  Most boys have a handle on keeping their hands to themselves and only rough housing with their rough and tumble buddies significantly earlier than 9.  It needs to be effectively addressed-if that involves a clinician, then so be it, but not addressing effectively (in a way that actually works) is going to cost them and you in relationships because that's how societies work.  No child should have to endure another child's impulse control issues. Compassion for the impulsive child shouldn't mean lack of compassion for the victim.  Compassion for the victim is evidenced by making sure they aren't a victim again.  

[wendyroo]

26 minutes ago, HS Mom in NC said:

I need to advocate for the victims here.  Sometimes when parents haven't implemented an effective strategy to reign in the behavior, the victims aren't being dramatic about the flick or ankle grabbing or whatever, they're accurately voicing their level of justified frustration that this hasn't been dealt with effectively enough and they're tired of being the one who has to deal with it.  They don't usually have the words for it, but I think it's clear. I know that's hard to hear, especially for people who really really really want to be gentle parents or no punishment parents, but the fact is, not every parenting strategy works for every kid.

Well, I would never be classified as a no-punishment parent. And I think I have earned my "different parenting strategies" cred as I cried my way through calling the police on my 8 year old...twice.

My life and my house has been swarmed with therapists and behaviorists and psychologists and psychiatrists for five years now. They all see Audrey's malarkey for what it is...she may be a girl crying out for help, but it is 100% for attention, not due to unwanted touching.

Elliot is never near a sibling out of an adult's eyesight. Never; it is part of the safety plan. So any time they are playing in close proximity, there is an adult watching the interaction closely and judging it to be safe, consensual and behaviorally positive. Audrey will actually initiate by saying something like, "I bet I could pull you!" And one impulsive second later, when Elliot's hands have barely brushed her ankles, she will start shrieking about how "Elliot made me fall". No he didn't. We are all right here, and you are clearly still upright. Then it changes to "he held too tight" or "I didn't want him to grab me" or "he's mean".

Nonsense. Audrey has found a way to garner attention. She will routinely ride the swing crashing into the tree until her shins are black and blue, and then wail in intense agony over Elliot tapping her on the head with a pool noodle after she just did the same thing to him. She has lived her whole life in a house ruled by the needs and whims of Elliot and his mental illnesses, and she has found how to work the system to get her needs met. Add to that that she also has ADHD (as do her other brothers) and is very impulsive herself and is six. Her behavior is understandable, but not acceptable. And she is not an unavenged victim being overlooked...by the countless mental health professionals watching over her.

[sassenach]

Nine is not my favorite age, especially in boys. It's a boundary pushing age and physical boundaries seem to be one edge of that.

He needs to apologize and he needs consequences. By apology, I mean acknowledgement. I have mixed feelings about forced apologies, but I think  having a kid say out loud "I flicked you in the nose and that hurt you" is a start, even without the "I'm sorry." He needs a consequence. Actions have consequences and talking is not a consequence. 

There's a critical transition that happens at this age. I feel like it's especially felt with boys. If a kid does not learn respect for others and boundaries at this stage (roughly 9-11), things can get very hard into the teen years. I've seen it mostly result in social rejection, because kids who do have these skills are keenly aware of a kid who is in their space and disrespects their boundaries.

Respect for other's bodies and boundaries is a key life skill and one that I put a lot of work into as a parent. I too had a kid who would flip to victim blaming if he took things too far (the victim almost always being his little sister). We were highly motivated to change that behavior and we were successful. He's now a young adult who I can count on to respect boundaries.

[Katy]

58 minutes ago, HS Mom in NC said:

I wouldn't say your response reads to me like you really get it. I stand by what I said-You might be hearing her frustration with the situation as a whole, not a reaction to a compartmentalized incident. I know it's hard to hear.  Do with that information what you will, but it needs to be said out loud.

I have brothers and grew up in a neighborhood with almost all boys. My girls have been around boys their ages.  Most boys have a handle on keeping their hands to themselves and only rough housing with their rough and tumble buddies significantly earlier than 9.  It needs to be effectively addressed-if that involves a clinician, then so be it, but not addressing effectively (in a way that actually works) is going to cost them and you in relationships because that's how societies work.  No child should have to endure another child's impulse control issues. Compassion for the impulsive child shouldn't mean lack of compassion for the victim.  Compassion for the victim is evidenced by making sure they aren't a victim again.  

I absolutely get it.  I've been a foster parent for years, I've witnessed sexual and physical abuse by a child against their siblings, I've worked with experts to create safety plans and when that didn't work, to remove the aggressive child from my house. To this day I am unsure in one case if the parents' claim that the oldest kid was the abuser, and a psychopath in the making, not the parents, wasn't true.  But that is not what's going on in my house today. This is not a situation where one child isn't sufficiently protected and is crying out from exhaustion.  That definitely happens, but it is not what is happening in my house right now. In their waking hours one or the other is basically tethered to me at all times so I am sure. If you can't see that you might be wrong about parents and children you've never met, you're projecting.  Especially when you start to mix in vague threats about lifelong consequences and how societies work. I feel your emotion and desire to protect children, but you aren't being completely logical.

Also, puberty definitely makes impulse control issues worse for both genders.  This is a fact. Frequently boys start having more impulse control issues at age 9 than they did since they were toddlers.

[Clarita]

4 hours ago, hjffkj said:

I mean they see their dad and I show affection without verbal consent daily: hugging from behind while one of us does dishes, just walking up and kissing the other, grabbing the other person's hand while walking, etc.  All positive interactions never any negative touching (that sounds silly to me.)

It doesn't have to be a forever rule, just a right now rule because child in question is having trouble with inappropriate touching. You can choose to call out the one egregious child on it or if all the other children are also doing it enough that maybe everyone can use a reset in this department. We've had success implementing this type of temporary rule for "aggressive hugging" and had success. Asking for consent gives children a habit of pausing before engaging.

I try not to go down the rabbit trail of whether my kids mean to do something with mal-intent or not and treat behaviors depending on that. I just address the inappropriate behavior being very clear with them it doesn't matter what the intent is, it is still wrong. 

My kids are younger than yours and I only have 2. So definitely not any sort of parenting expert.

[BakersDozen]

7 hours ago, prairiewindmomma said:

ITA with those who are pointing out the benefits of a "no touching without consent" rule and physical separation.

Our rule is "Keep your hands and things in your hands off each other."

At least that's the rule. Kids following said rule is an entirely different thing! But at least they know the rule so when a brother pokes a sibling with the pencil in his hand, it's no surprise that there are consequences.

[kristin0713]

7 hours ago, Clarita said:

It doesn't have to be a forever rule, just a right now rule because child in question is having trouble with inappropriate touching. You can choose to call out the one egregious child on it or if all the other children are also doing it enough that maybe everyone can use a reset in this department. We've had success implementing this type of temporary rule for "aggressive hugging" and had success. Asking for consent gives children a habit of pausing before engaging.

I try not to go down the rabbit trail of whether my kids mean to do something with mal-intent or not and treat behaviors depending on that. I just address the inappropriate behavior being very clear with them it doesn't matter what the intent is, it is still wrong. 

My kids are younger than yours and I only have 2. So definitely not any sort of parenting expert.

I agree with this. It’s wonderful that you guys are an affectionate family, but the physical stuff like poking, flicking, hitting absolutely has to stop. You and your DH showing affection to each other without obvious verbal consent is completely different. I’d spell it out very specifically for the kids and make an absolute “hands to yourself” rule for the siblings unless they consent to a hug. 

[katilac]

On 3/2/2022 at 6:15 PM, hjffkj said:

Thank you all.  To address the no touching without consent.  The hard thing about that is that we really are a loving and affectionate family.  So, a random loving arm around a sibling's shoulder while walking or using their shoulder as a pillow while watching tv isn't uncommon in this house.  Those are never met with anger or annoyance because they don't do those things in a pestering way and are good at reading when they'd be appreciated.  I value that they have that type of comfortable relationship with each other.  So, the idea of implementing no touching at all instead of directly addressing the issue of impulsively touching in a harmful way is hard to grasp. I will certainly think about it as nothing else seems to be working well.

I mean they see their dad and I show affection without verbal consent daily: hugging from behind while one of us does dishes, just walking up and kissing the other, grabbing the other person's hand while walking, etc.  All positive interactions never any negative touching (that sounds silly to me.)

You say, "the idea of implementing no touching at all instead of directly addressing the issue of impulsively touching in a harmful way is hard to grasp" but that's not what consent means. You can absolutely be a loving and affectionate family while still requiring consent.  Asking if someone wants to snuggle doesn't ruin the snuggle. Asking for consent doesn't mean no touching at all, it means no touching until you ask if your touch is welcome. 

Asking for consent all the time eliminates all of the I-thought-it-would-be-funny excuses. And truly, if they are that good at reading each other's body language when it comes to hugs and snuggles, you really have to consider that the flicking and otherwise hurting each other being an 'ongoing issue' is not because they're being impulsive, but because they're deliberately annoying their sibling. Or, maybe they truly are being impulsive, and sometimes the impulsive touch is good (snuggles) and sometimes it is bad. Either way, it seems to me that you are circling right back around to consent. 

The positive physical relationship of two married adults  is different from the physical relationship of siblings who haven't mastered impulsiveness. You seem to view asking for clear consent as a negative and 'not loving' but it absolutely is not. Being comfortable with both asking for consent and expecting others to ask for consent is a fantastic and valuable skill that will server your kids well throughout their life. Teach them how to ask, teach them how to decline, teach them how to speak up when someone didn't ask for consent. 

This is a consent issue: you do not have the right to touch other people without their permission. 

 

[Soror]

My first thought reading the OP was ADHD. My kid never showed a ton of impulsiveness (not near to the extent I expected with ADHD) but it would show up in this way at times. 

Another vote for consent. What Mom and Dad do as consenting adults with a romantic relationship is not at all related to what kids do with each other. When kids start to get out of line and crossing boundaries we implement rules for consent. With my ADHD kid it was impulsivity. Or sometimes kids are just going through a stage of pushing boundaries or want to be annoying for whatever reason. However the bigger reason to address it as consent to me is because as kids go through puberty there need for physical space grows immensely. What was ok for 5 year olds is not ok for 13 year olds. Toddlers snuggle in all kinds of ways- the same ways that would be inappropriate for teens to do, even if they are in a loving, close family. Rules and boundaries have to change as kids get older. Sometimes the younger ones aren't ready or don't understand that the older ones don't feel comfortable with the same things we did before. It is great practice for them to practice asking for consent. It is also great for them to practice talking to each other about what they are comfortable with (no explanation needed of course but sometimes they like to give it). My girls loved bathing together when they were younger and were together all the time. As they've gotten older they've naturally pulled away from some of those things. It's hard on the younger ones sometimes because they aren't always ready but we always focus it on you have the say for what is right for you and as a caring and good person you need to listen to that even if you don't like it. Usually, it is a bit rough as one kid is ready for a change and we've got to work on those boundaries and consent for awhile until new norms are established. After they make it through that becomes the new normal and it is not weird or awkward but how things are-- until of course someone else needs/wants a change.

 

 

Edited March 4, 2022 by Soror

[BlsdMama]

On 3/2/2022 at 2:16 PM, Lisa said:

The offending kid should apologize to the offended and not just with a quick "I'm sorry", but a more genuine, "I'm sorry. Will you forgive me?"  Apologizing is easy, asking for forgiveness is not. When one asks for forgiveness, that person has to have a degree of humility to admit one did something wrong.

I'll caveat this by saying that if you ask this of the hurt child, the offending child needs to be genuine.  I agree with all you've said but it is asking a lot of child who was hurt if the offender is resentful, sulky, and actually non repentant.  It can produce guilty feelings in the hurt child and cause them to resent their offending sibling who does the same thing over and over.

[ktgrok]

Two pronged

1. Explain (as often as needed) that saying sorry doesn't mean you did it on purpose - it means you are sorry they are hurting. He's taking it as you attacking his character. So say clearly, "wow, I know you'd never do anything on purpose to hurt your sibling - but turns out that hurt. You need to say you are sorry for accidentally hurting him, and ask if you can do anything to help him feel better.

If child still refuses to acknowledge this, talk about it again later, using yourself as the example. Explain that if you accidentally stepped on the child's foot you wold say you are sorry, even though it was an accident. They may still just have to trust you on this - my 9 yr old doesn't really think apologies are needed for accidents either. But he knows they are required. If someone is hurt you say sorry, and ask how you can help. Period. (got that from Daniel Tiger, lol)

2. No touching without permission. Period. 

[Faith-manor]

On 3/2/2022 at 5:07 PM, fairfarmhand said:

This.

My policy is do not touch anyone else without permission. Because it can go south SOOOOO quickly. 

And honestly, I do want my son to get in the habit of asking before he touches anyone. 

Some of this may be developmental. 

My kids did better with this kind of thing when they were a bit older.

And sadly, it was after they were the recipient of someone else who was the exact same way. A kid who would make jokes at their expense ("can't you take a joke? I was just kidding.") Or someone else who would get overly rambunctious at an activity and throw a ball or something entirely too hard. 

We had a keep your hands to yourself policy because we wanted the boys to learn consent. Don't touch if you do not ask first and receive an affirmative. Mark made them sit on a chair with their hands under their legs or folded in their lap reminding them that if they couldn't control their own hands, the world would control it for them. It was paramount to us in a society that has not taught men about consent, and women that bodily autonomy is their right, that we teach it at a young age. They really did not like sitting like that. So they did figure it out and stop the impulsive stuff.

I get that positive parenting is best when kids will respond to it, but the issue at hand is that the child in question is not the only consideration. The rights of others must be defended, and if that takes some negative consequences, so be it.

We never allowed rough housing. Run around the yard, climb, swing, bike, jump on the tramp, whatever but do not get physical energy out by grabbing your brother and wrestling him.

[maize]

My kids tend to respond better to positive reinforcement than to negative consequences. Something I have used to help a kid with impulsive behavior is to offer a small reward for NOT following an impulse. A coin they can add to a jar or a small treat. "If you feel an urge to flick your sister's nose or do something else she might find annoying, and you stop yourself from doing it, you can have a Hershey's kiss from this bowl."

[JustEm]

He had another issue yesterday with impulsive behavior that was not physical and really wasn't a big deal at all, he just got defensive when the offended party said 'I'm gonna tell on you.'  So, to him it was, when mom calls me over I'm going to be in trouble so I better get defensive about the whole thing. It was actually really good that the issues happened so close together because the previous incident was so fresh in his mind.  Usually we only have an issue maybe once a week or biweekly, again not always of a physical nature.  So, like I said the impulsive behavior isn't the major issue, when I posted it certainly felt like the biggest issue.  The major issue is his response to being called out on it.

This time after he calmed down from the initial defensive reaction he was actually able to give me more of a response as to why he did what he did other than 'I thought it'd be funny." So, small progress.

To address the physical impulsive behavior he eventually expressed that he misses sparring and wrestling with dh as much as he used too.  So, dh started doing that with him again and his siblings and him have been doing it with each other.  For those that don't know, we all do martial arts so it isn't just random rough housing.  It is timed rounds with perimeters within the round, like a round of only punches or drills where your specifically trying to tap someone's shoulders. They aren't allowed to rough house because someone always gets hurt and angry when it isn't controlled.

Consent is really important to us and we do talk about it a lot.  None of them ever touch people outside of the household without permission, so we're doing something right ha.  I will of course consider the no touching without expressed permission if something doesn't change. For now, I think I need to spend more time when he has not just done something working with him and the other offenders in the house.  

Thank you all, I really appreciate all the advice. 

[JustEm]

On 3/3/2022 at 9:43 PM, katilac said:

 

The positive physical relationship of two married adults  is different from the physical relationship of siblings who haven't mastered impulsiveness. You seem to view asking for clear consent as a negative and 'not loving' but it absolutely is not. Being comfortable with both asking for consent and expecting others to ask for consent is a fantastic and valuable skill that will server your kids well throughout their life. Teach them how to ask, teach them how to decline, teach them how to speak up when someone didn't ask for consent. 

This is a consent issue: you do not have the right to touch other people without their permission. 

 

I do not view it negatively.  I do think it will impact our family negatively with a no touching without expressed consent rule because not all of my children are good at asking people things.  I don't know how to explain that better.  But I know some kids will go without that hug or cuddle they so desperately need/want simply because there is a wall in their brain when it comes to verbally asking a question.  It is something I have actively worked to fix with my kids who struggle with it and some are farther on that journey than others.  

I think if the impulsive behavior was strictly of a physical nature I would be more willing to address it by implementing the rule.  But that rule wouldn't help with the impulse to repeat a word over and over again while having a discussion with someone, without knowing why you're doing it.   The real problem is acting on impulses before even registering why your doing it.

[kristin0713]

5 minutes ago, hjffkj said:

But I know some kids will go without that hug or cuddle they so desperately need/want simply because there is a wall in their brain when it comes to verbally asking a question. 

Can you tell them, “You can ALWAYS hug me and Dad whenever you want!” 

It’s different for siblings. It just is. 

[Faith-manor]

9 minutes ago, hjffkj said:

I do not view it negatively.  I do think it will impact our family negatively with a no touching without expressed consent rule because not all of my children are good at asking people things.  I don't know how to explain that better.  But I know some kids will go without that hug or cuddle they so desperately need/want simply because there is a wall in their brain when it comes to verbally asking a question.  It is something I have actively worked to fix with my kids who struggle with it and some are farther on that journey than others.  

I think if the impulsive behavior was strictly of a physical nature I would be more willing to address it by implementing the rule.  But that rule wouldn't help with the impulse to repeat a word over and over again while having a discussion with someone, without knowing why you're doing it.   The real problem is acting on impulses before even registering why your doing it.

We always told them that cuddles and hugs were total freebies from mom and dad, and if they needed to run up and wrap their arms around us, go ahead just be gentle. This was to reinforce that the right place to get that ended fulfilled was mom and dad or grandma and grandpa, not each other or their cousins or the kids next door. We were very affectionate with our kids, and to this day, all four adults will lean in for hugs, and Dd is very affectionate with our grandsons. The sibs hug each other, but they are very aware of personal space and mature enough to know when someone doesn't want the attention. So I think teaching them to get this from you because you are best equipped to help them learn appropriateness and sense boundary issues is better than allowing them to try to learn on each other when they are that young. As older teens and young adults, they are better equipped to sense boundaries and respect space, yet also seek to have their needs met.

[catz]

47 minutes ago, hjffkj said:

I do not view it negatively.  I do think it will impact our family negatively with a no touching without expressed consent rule because not all of my children are good at asking people things.  I don't know how to explain that better.  But I know some kids will go without that hug or cuddle they so desperately need/want simply because there is a wall in their brain when it comes to verbally asking a question.  It is something I have actively worked to fix with my kids who struggle with it and some are farther on that journey than others.  

I think if the impulsive behavior was strictly of a physical nature I would be more willing to address it by implementing the rule.  But that rule wouldn't help with the impulse to repeat a word over and over again while having a discussion with someone, without knowing why you're doing it.   The real problem is acting on impulses before even registering why your doing it.

I think this is kind of avoiding the problem.  When a child acts out or starts pushing buttons, they are not expressing themselves well.  They might be saying I'm hungry, I'm tired, I can't control myself, I need a physical/mental outlet, I need a hug, I need some positive attention, etc.  Putting emotions and feelings into words while respecting others is an important life skill.  One child's need for touch isn't more important than another child's bodily automony.  A child that won't ask for a hug when they need it may also not be willing to say NO loudly when they don't want someone in their personal space.  So I think when problems arise, talking about verbalizing feelings is important for ALL kids. 

When you first posted this, I thought you were probably talking about a 4-6 year old.  I do think this is unusal behavoir for a 9 year old.  If he lost a physical outlet and is verbalizing that, that is great and may help.