Update on the Joshua Duggar conviction.

[Faith-manor]

A sentencing date has been established for April 5.

I hope he gets 20 years. But I don't think getting the max is common when there isn't a previous conviction. The point system would indicate 10-15. My concern is for the youngest two M's. If he only gets 10 and has to serve 85%, then he is out in 8.5 years. And those last two would still be in the age range at which he molested his sisters. The eldest two M's would be adults. Given his established history, I feel like he needs to be in prison longer. But I know that isn't how it works. The judge can only do what is within the guidelines, and ideally the State of Arkansas is supposed to step in and protect the kids by investigating and not allowing unsupervised visits, no going to their home, no living in the home, taking custody from Anna if she doesn't abide by the rules. But we all know the system is pretty darn broken.

Here is the article.

https://www.nwahomepage.com/josh-duggar-trial/sentencing-date-set-for-josh-duggar/

[Catwoman]

Thanks for the update, Faith!

[Katy]

If Anna decides to divorce him when his appeal fails he’ll automatically & permanently lose custody because his jail term will exceed 3 years. We can only hope that she’s clinging to the appearance of believing him for the sake of his appeal.

Apparently one of the court filings indicated the kids were examined, so as long as they weren’t too young to remember, if they are victims the court is probably aware of that now. We’ll never know.

[Mrs Tiggywinkle]

41 minutes ago, Katy said:

If Anna decides to divorce him when his appeal fails he’ll automatically & permanently lose custody because his jail term will exceed 3 years. We can only hope that she’s clinging to the appearance of believing him for the sake of his appeal.

Apparently one of the court filings indicated the kids were examined, so as long as they weren’t too young to remember, if they are victims the court is probably aware of that now. We’ll never know.

If something had come out during those examinations, would there be more charges? Or do the forensic exams not really count as enough evidence?

[Faith-manor]

1 hour ago, Mrs Tiggywinkle said:

If something had come out during those examinations, would there be more charges? Or do the forensic exams not really count as enough evidence?

They don't count as evidence in the federal trial. Sex abuse would be a a matter for the state unless he took a victim across state lines to commit a crime. So in the instance of Jack Schapp, he got caught on both state and federal charges. Rape was the state charge, but then he took the 15 year old across state lines for an abortion to cover up his crime which is a federal offense. So he got both.

Josh would not be brought up on other charges unless the state of Arkansas chose to pursue it. The forensic exams do figure into the sentencing and later parole guidelines which is probably why the judge ordered them. So they can be used for determination of how much of a threat Josh is which adds or subtracts points in the formula used to determine the sentence, but the federal prosecutor cannot charge Josh for anything in the report unless it was something under federal jurisdiction. CSAM is federal because it falls under interstate commerce.

[gardenmom5]

2 hours ago, Faith-manor said:

A sentencing date has been established for April 5.

I hope he gets 20 years. But I don't think getting the max is common when there isn't a previous conviction. The point system would indicate 10-15. My concern is for the youngest two M's. If he only gets 10 and has to serve 85%, then he is out in 8.5 years. And those last two would still be in the age range at which he molested his sisters. The eldest two M's would be adults. Given his established history, I feel like he needs to be in prison longer. But I know that isn't how it works. The judge can only do what is within the guidelines, and ideally the State of Arkansas is supposed to step in and protect the kids by investigating and not allowing unsupervised visits, no going to their home, no living in the home, taking custody from Anna if she doesn't abide by the rules. But we all know the system is pretty darn broken.

Here is the article.

https://www.nwahomepage.com/josh-duggar-trial/sentencing-date-set-for-josh-duggar/

I can think of a few in s3x cases that gave significantly less than the guidlines - and "time served". . . . 

eta: I admit - those were judges I really wanted to see what kind of pictures they had on their computers  . . . . . 

2 hours ago, Katy said:

If Anna decides to divorce him when his appeal fails he’ll automatically & permanently lose custody because his jail term will exceed 3 years. We can only hope that she’s clinging to the appearance of believing him for the sake of his appeal.

Apparently one of the court filings indicated the kids were examined, so as long as they weren’t too young to remember, if they are victims the court is probably aware of that now. We’ll never know.

She's in so deep - I don't see her ever leaving.

Edited February 15, 2022 by gardenmom5

[Katy]

1 hour ago, Mrs Tiggywinkle said:

If something had come out during those examinations, would there be more charges? Or do the forensic exams not really count as enough evidence?

Yes, but it would be prosecuted by the state and we wouldn’t hear about it. Unless there was evidence he was manufacturing CSAM too, which would be another federal trial. 

[Faith-manor]

50 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

I can think of a few in s3x cases that gave significantly less than the guidlines - and "time served". . . . 

eta: I admit - those were judges I really wanted to see what kind of pictures they had on their computers  . . . . . 

She's in so deep - I don't see her ever leaving.

I don't see her leaving either. She posted on Instagram the other day 'there is more to the story" and a big pro Josh thing. Screenshots were posted on Reddit and the mods confirmed they were legit.The very next day the appeal was denied! Talk about being an ostrich! It turns out they were still spinning the "Caleb the registered sex offender could have done it on Josh's computer" except that the prosecution definitively proved Caleb, who has to check in with his parole officer on a regular basis, wasn't even in the state at the time, and that Josh photographed himself (the reason for the hand photos because of his unusual scar) on the computer at the car dealership during the download and viewing. Anna is not very bright. She really isn't.

I am very scared for the future of those seven M's. And it isn't like they have grandparents with any brains either. The mother daughter Duggar Facebook page had a Happy Valentine's Day message for all of the married couples in the family and included a photo of each couple. Michelle, Jana, or Jessa (the primary ones who post to that page) used a Josh and Anna at the courthouse with masks for their pic. 🙄 just duh. How many photos do they have after all these years? They couldn't even be bothered to either leave those two out or go look up a wedding photo? Can you imagine being Mck as a teenager seeing that? Grandma thought, "Sure let's use the photo of them together when dad got tried and convicted for being a pedophile, pervert." Poor kids. It would not have been hard to post a Valentine's photo collage, leave the pedo out, and then just post a "We love you, Anna" message. These kids are just surrounded by people who do not give a crap about them, and do not think critically.

Edited February 16, 2022 by Faith-manor

[gardenmom5]

4 hours ago, Faith-manor said:

  Michelle, Jana, or Jessa (the primary ones who post to that page) used a Josh and Anna at the courthouse with masks for their pic. 🙄 just duh.  

It fits with their "Josh is a victim" narrative.  They need to keep reminding people about how Josh is being persecuted. 

[AbcdeDooDah]

I didn’t think the judge had ruled on the motion to acquit or new trial yet. The government just submitted their response a few days ago. 

[Faith-manor]

2 minutes ago, AbcdeDooDah said:

I didn’t think the judge had ruled on the motion to acquit or new trial yet. The government just submitted their response a few days ago. 

Well, it is confusing. The document was worded in such a way that made it sound like the first motions to appeal weren't found to have merit or something. It is not easy to parse. But there are more than one avenue to appeals. The court record was posted and it sounded like they could appeal on other grounds or something after sentencing which seems typical as that happens for a lot of incarcerated folks. But it laid out the path to sentencing, and established the date, and rejected some motions from the defense. For me it is harder to figure out the whole federal process than my own state  which is why I didn't say in my original post that his appeals process was over or anything just that his sentence date had been established.

He probably has avenues to pursue yet.

[AbcdeDooDah]

4 minutes ago, Faith-manor said:

Well, it is confusing. The document was worded in such a way that made it sound like the first motions to appeal weren't found to have merit or something. It is not easy to parse. But there are more than one avenue to appeals. The court record was posted and it sounded like they could appeal on other grounds or something after sentencing which seems typical as that happens for a lot of incarcerated folks. But it laid out the path to sentencing, and established the date, and rejected some motions from the defense. For me it is harder to figure out the whole federal process than my own state  which is why I didn't say in my original post that his appeals process was over or anything just that his sentence date had been established.

He probably has avenues to pursue yet.

Yes, I hope his path is over soon. I can’t find a date when the court has to make a ruling on the motion. 

[Faith-manor]

14 minutes ago, AbcdeDooDah said:

Yes, I hope his path is over soon. I can’t find a date when the court has to make a ruling on the motion. 

It is hard to follow. I think there must be so much paperwork.back and forth between the prosecution, the defense, the bench. I hate paperwork. I could never be a lawyer! 😁

I also wonder if we won't hear about the ruling in the news if the motion is dismissed because since he is already in jail, and could be in prison even, his situation would not change on dismissal. So not a big gotcha headline. A new trial would be a headline, especially in Arkansas. I was shocked that ABCNews online actually ran a quick blurb on the sentencing being scheduled. I honestly thought it just wouldn't be on the national press horizon after the trial. But there it was. 

[Ottakee]

My ex has b en in federal custody for 4 years now, in federal prison  for 3, and he is still filing appeals.  So the sentencing and move to federal prison will likely continue on schedule even with all of the appeals.

[HomeAgain]

12 hours ago, gardenmom5 said:

She's in so deep - I don't see her ever leaving.

Same.  The most worrying thoughts I have is that the statements made by JB before about how Josh's behavior was "normal" and a lot of families they know have similar stories PLUS the ATI teachings about how molestation/worse is a test of faith for the victim (did they call out to God?  What will God use this experience for in their lives?)........all of this builds to one chain of thoughts.  If Anna grew up with similar experiences in her home, or has absorbed the message that "experiences" would strengthen her children's faith, I don't see her considering this as a normal adult would. She would play it down, "give it to God", and call these tests of faith.  She's not going to divorce him, no matter what he does to her kids or anyone else's.  Everything from ATI to the Pearls has used a lack of virtues of the male as a reason for the woman to stand by her man.

[Faith-manor]

3 hours ago, HomeAgain said:

Same.  The most worrying thoughts I have is that the statements made by JB before about how Josh's behavior was "normal" and a lot of families they know have similar stories PLUS the ATI teachings about how molestation/worse is a test of faith for the victim (did they call out to God?  What will God use this experience for in their lives?)........all of this builds to one chain of thoughts.  If Anna grew up with similar experiences in her home, or has absorbed the message that "experiences" would strengthen her children's faith, I don't see her considering this as a normal adult would. She would play it down, "give it to God", and call these tests of faith.  She's not going to divorce him, no matter what he does to her kids or anyone else's.  Everything from ATI to the Pearls has used a lack of virtues of the male as a reason for the woman to stand by her man.

Anna was raised IBLP. The Kellers, her parents, are deep into it. They just aren't celebrity IBLPers like Duggar and Bates.

Interestingly, though a whole new season of the Bates show has been filmed, their network has dropped the show, and will not be airing the filmed episodes. I have been waiting for a skeleton in the closet shoe to drop. 

[KungFuPanda]

16 hours ago, Faith-manor said:

They don't count as evidence in the federal trial. Sex abuse would be a a matter for the state unless he took a victim across state lines to commit a crime. So in the instance of Jack Schapp, he got caught on both state and federal charges. Rape was the state charge, but then he took the 15 year old across state lines for an abortion to cover up his crime which is a federal offense. So he got both.

Josh would not be brought up on other charges unless the state of Arkansas chose to pursue it. The forensic exams do figure into the sentencing and later parole guidelines which is probably why the judge ordered them. So they can be used for determination of how much of a threat Josh is which adds or subtracts points in the formula used to determine the sentence, but the federal prosecutor cannot charge Josh for anything in the report unless it was something under federal jurisdiction. CSAM is federal because it falls under interstate commerce.

Ugh.  Didn't Schapp try for early parole during the pandemic.  He's just gross.  I'd never even heard about him until I started listening to the Leaving Eden podcast during my deep dive into cults at the beginning of the Pandemic.  I'd never heard of Hyles Anderson either!

[stephanier.1765]

My worry is that once he is out Anna could conceivably still conceive adding more possible victims to their household.

[Faith-manor]

Just now, stephanier.1765 said:

My worry is that once he is out Anna could conceivably still conceive adding more possible victims to their household.

Another worry. She is in her early thirties now so fingers crossed he gets 15 and serves 85% thus serving 13 because then she will likely be perimenopausal with waning fertility. Sigh. It just doesn't bear thinking about. More victims for this cult.

[Katy]

3 hours ago, Faith-manor said:

Anna was raised IBLP. The Kellers, her parents, are deep into it. They just aren't celebrity IBLPers like Duggar and Bates.

Interestingly, though a whole new season of the Bates show has been filmed, their network has dropped the show, and will not be airing the filmed episodes. I have been waiting for a skeleton in the closet shoe to drop. 

WRT the Bates, I think I heard this on Without a Crystal Ball. It's all due to Instagram posts and the Amazon documentary.

I guess their channel has a new owner who is very risk-adverse.  He wants to move more into low budget movies, like hallmark style but more overtly Christian. No politics or controversy, just generic feel-good family friendly content.  He was going to let the Bates stay on because they were making money but then:

• Carlin's name was part of the Duggar trial
• Some of the boys went to the rally in DC on January 6th (I don't know if they went in the capital, but they definitely posted pictures outside indicating they supported government overthrow and conspiracy theories)
• One of the girls posted a video of the kids playing charades and someone made a REALLY offensive George Floyd joke and then refused to take it down for days despite it going viral for being so offensive
• Several people went back on the early Bates episodes of the Duggar Show on Discovery Plus and saw the Bates used to have a room covered in confederate flags and statues, that also went widespread on the internet
• The last straw was that Amazon announced they are producing a documentary investigating right wing fundamentalist families on reality TV being made by the same people who made LuLaRich.  It will not be a fluffy piece, it will rip apart exploiting and disguising religious abuse of women and children on reality TV as entertainment.

[Faith-manor]

Well, that would do it if one does not want to make money off controversy.

The Bates are known confederate supporters and yes, it was pretty well known among IBLPers that their house had a room dedicated to the confederacy.

I don't expect that documentary to be kind, and well, it doesn't need to be. I do feel sorry for fundie adult kids who have left and are trying so hard not to get sucked back into the IBLP drama. Jill and Derrick, Jinger and Jeremy just continue to have a nightmare due to these people. It isn't easy to deal with when not in the limelight.

This is what happens when narcissists like JB and Gil trade their minor children's privacy for bucks. We need laws, same ad we have for kids working on other t.v. shows and in movies. This reality t.v. crap with kids has to stop!

[Annie G]

I’m not convinced any of the items mentioned that WACB posted are cancel worthy, especially since they had already spent money filming the season. Carlin wasn’t involved in the Duggar trial as anything other than a text mentioning her name in regards to a car her husband was looking to buy her.  Before filming started they knew some of the boys went to DC on Jan 6 and that there had once been a Confederate themed room. The charades issue- if that was it, I suspect the network would have been on her quickly to take it down, and they would have done damage control.   (a timeline check- was the charades incident before or after they filmed Lawson’s proposal?) So maybe it’s the documentary, since Gil was a board member for years, and they were definitely knee deep…Erin and Chad had a birthday cake for dear old Gothard at their wedding, and Brandon used to work at the Illinois compound.   no idea if he still works for them though.
As awful as this stuff is, I think there’s something else lurking out there that we haven’t heard about yet.  Any of these things could make them not renew the show, but I think it’s something more for them to not air footage they already shot. 

[Faith-manor]

1 minute ago, Annie G said:

I’m not convinced any of the items mentioned that WACB posted are cancel worthy, especially since they had already spent money filming the season. Carlin wasn’t involved in the Duggar trial as anything other than a text mentioning her name in regards to a car her husband was looking to buy her.  Before filming started they knew some of the boys went to DC on Jan 6 and that there had once been a Confederate themed room. The charades issue- if that was it, I suspect the network would have been on her quickly to take it down, and they would have done damage control.   (a timeline check- was the charades incident before or after they filmed Lawson’s proposal?) So maybe it’s the documentary, since Gil was a board member for years, and they were definitely knee deep…Erin and Chad had a birthday cake for dear old Gothard at their wedding, and Brandon used to work at the Illinois compound.   no idea if he still works for them though.
As awful as this stuff is, I think there’s something else lurking out there that we haven’t heard about yet.  Any of these things could make them not renew the show, but I think it’s something more for them to not air footage they already shot. 

Oh believe me, I have been wondering. But if the new CEO is super risk averse or really wants to go 'Hallmark" channel, then I could see this being enough. Chances are though there is some sort of skeleton in the closet, and either it is coming out now or it will come out with the documentary. Time will tell.

Erin Bates and her husband Chad Paine left IBLP when the allegations that the BOD of which Gil is the head honcho were released claiming the BOD covered up for Gothard's sex abuse, and dealt nastily with the victims. Erin and Chad were pretty open about being disgusted by it, and in 2019 ended up in much the same place with their family that Jill and Derrick are with JBob. So that is one thing. The fan favorite, Erin, left the show, left the cult, and wasn't cagey about saying they left on social media. Lawson is also much older than normal for quiverful marriage, almost 30, rejected the traditional IBLP version of courtship, dated Tiffany for many months, got engaged in the fall, and isn't getting married until May which is not normal in this group. 250 ish days of court ship and 90-100 days to plan the wedding has been typical. So he has taken his time, and waited much later in life to do so. That often signals a rebellion against IBLP/ATI. Gil also owes Lawson a lot of money - Lawson paid bills for the Bates all the time even as a teen because he was industrious enough to start a business and Gil had more mouths to feed than what he could ever support on his IBLP salary - and so I am wondering if it means Lawson is kind of moving away from Gil and IBLP. It just seems like there is a shake up in that family. Who knows though. I just hope these young adults see the light and start getting the neck out of dodge. The documentary is NOT going to be fun, and as distanced as possible would be wise.

[prairiewindmomma]

Are most show costs picked up by the producers, and then sold to the network? So, yes, costs would have been paid by the producers, but if the network didn't go under contract to purchase those episodes, network isn't out any money and isn't obliged to air the episodes. So...I wonder where that fell apart.

[prairiewindmomma]

I think that Pest isn't going to be in jail long (like 5-8 years with good behavior). I hope I'm wrong. I also don't think Anna is going to leave right away. If she does it's going to be a few years from now when the Duggars have put her on ignore and she's lonely. The shock and denial will have started to wear off a bit and she'll be more willing to see. She'll have a few years of single parenting under her belt at that point, closer ties to her own family, the baby will have weaned, and mackynzie will be 15-16 and contemplating courtship options. 

[Harriet Vane]

1 hour ago, prairiewindmomma said:

I think that Pest isn't going to be in jail long (like 5-8 years with good behavior). I hope I'm wrong. I also don't think Anna is going to leave right away. If she does it's going to be a few years from now when the Duggars have put her on ignore and she's lonely. The shock and denial will have started to wear off a bit and she'll be more willing to see. She'll have a few years of single parenting under her belt at that point, closer ties to her own family, the baby will have weaned, and mackynzie will be 15-16 and contemplating courtship options. 

If she is not leaving now, when she's seen the court evidence, she's never leaving. There are many, many women who stand by their pedophiles and who reject their own children if it comes down to a forced choice.

[katilac]

3 hours ago, Harriet Vane said:

If she is not leaving now, when she's seen the court evidence, she's never leaving. There are many, many women who stand by their pedophiles and who reject their own children if it comes down to a forced choice.

Although you could say there's no rush to leave now, when he won't be home for years. 

[Harriet Vane]

33 minutes ago, katilac said:

Although you could say there's no rush to leave now, when he won't be home for years. 

True. Time will tell.

[ktgrok]

17 hours ago, Faith-manor said:

Oh believe me, I have been wondering. But if the new CEO is super risk averse or really wants to go 'Hallmark" channel, then I could see this being enough. Chances are though there is some sort of skeleton in the closet, and either it is coming out now or it will come out with the documentary. Time will tell.

Erin Bates and her husband Chad Paine left IBLP when the allegations that the BOD of which Gil is the head honcho were released claiming the BOD covered up for Gothard's sex abuse, and dealt nastily with the victims. Erin and Chad were pretty open about being disgusted by it, and in 2019 ended up in much the same place with their family that Jill and Derrick are with JBob. So that is one thing. The fan favorite, Erin, left the show, left the cult, and wasn't cagey about saying they left on social media. Lawson is also much older than normal for quiverful marriage, almost 30, rejected the traditional IBLP version of courtship, dated Tiffany for many months, got engaged in the fall, and isn't getting married until May which is not normal in this group. 250 ish days of court ship and 90-100 days to plan the wedding has been typical. So he has taken his time, and waited much later in life to do so. That often signals a rebellion against IBLP/ATI. Gil also owes Lawson a lot of money - Lawson paid bills for the Bates all the time even as a teen because he was industrious enough to start a business and Gil had more mouths to feed than what he could ever support on his IBLP salary - and so I am wondering if it means Lawson is kind of moving away from Gil and IBLP. It just seems like there is a shake up in that family. Who knows though. I just hope these young adults see the light and start getting the neck out of dodge. The documentary is NOT going to be fun, and as distanced as possible would be wise.

I'm glad to hear this about Erin and Chad as I was looking at home storage/organization videos on Youtube while cooking and a video popped up that turned out to be them, I think? I mean, it was an Erin and a Chad, and they had 4 kids I think, and it looked like what I remember of her...but I also have some face blindness, lol. She seemed nice, and then I felt icky because I was pretty sure she was that Erin and I have no tolerance for IBLP anymore. 

So, glad I can rest easy that she is out of the cult!  

Edited February 17, 2022 by ktgrok

[ktgrok]

If I were Anna's friend I would not rush her to leave - not at all. Her kids are safe for now, and will be for years, and she has a roof over their head and food for them and such. Take her time and plan, causse leaving with 7 kids will not be anywhere NEAR easy. 

[freesia]

1 minute ago, ktgrok said:

If I were Anna's friend I would not rush her to leave - not at all. Her kids are safe for now, and will be for years, and she has a roof over their head and food for them and such. Take her time and plan, causse leaving with 7 kids will not be anywhere NEAR easy. 

This is how I feel, too.  Ultimately it would be good for her to be away from the Duggars, but not if she goes hastily.  She needs to get her feet firm under her, get beyond the emotional exhaustion of the trial and pregnancy, and make a calm, considered plan.  Seven kids is A LOT even with a spouse.  Four had me drowning at times,and my dh is a full partner.  I have a college degree and 10 years school teaching experience and savings and my plan if something happened to dh (I was thinking death) always included taking my time to decide on my next step so I could provide stability for my kids (including staying in his work provided housing as long as possible).  I probably would have moved in with his mother as a next step.  Taking the kids away from all their supports right now to live with a mother who probably couldn't get a job that would cover basic needs and day care, who is also probably reeling emotionally, is just not a good idea.  We can argue they are in long term danger from the worldview they are being raised in but that won't change with a move.  It's better for any change to be a stable as possible.

[Faith-manor]

1 hour ago, ktgrok said:

If I were Anna's friend I would not rush her to leave - not at all. Her kids are safe for now, and will be for years, and she has a roof over their head and food for them and such. Take her time and plan, causse leaving with 7 kids will not be anywhere NEAR easy. 

The only issue I have is that JB is a narcissist and all about the money. He can't earn money off his kids and grandkids anymore, and he is her entire source of financial support. He houses her and the kids in a warehouse with no windows. Not joking about that. It is referred to as "the warehome". She has no stability. He has zero legal obligation to support her, and no son working in one of his businesses earning money. JB can kick her and the kids to the curb at any time. Her own parents are abjectly poor living with a huge number of kids in a very run down mobile home in Florida, subsisting on the not robust donations that comes in to Pa Keller's prison ministry. She is in a VERY precarious position. And yes, JB would absolutely do it to her. When Jill had Israel and nearly bled to death with a preemie in NICU and no medical insurance, she and Derrick hit the skids financially. JB had NEVER paid her any wages for all her time on the show. He managed to get TLC to send ALL the money made off Counting On to him. Derrick and Jill faced a multi-hundreds of thousands of dollars bill and when Jill asked him for her back wages so she could pay off the debt/pay it down, he refused to give her a penny. She and Derrick had to sue him. She won, you can only imagine what the court thought. But she had to sue her father. Anna has been forced to give birth on camera for " ratings" and according to Derrick and others related to the family, she has never been paid either. No one has. JB has it all. The only one that got paid was Jinger after she married and moved out of state because TLC hsd to negotiate with Jeremy, and he was smart and said "No. The money is NOT going to JB's 'ministry'." TLC should be beat! I can't believe it was even legal.

So Anna has nothing, and a father in law who does not care one fig about anything but money for himself. He cut Jill out simply because he was 100% in the wrong, and she was trying to survive financially. If he will do it to his child, he will for darn sure do it to a daughter in law bringing him no monetary value. And IBLP teaches that what Josh did is not HIS fault, it is Anna's because she was supposed to guard him from temptation, she is supposed to provide for all of his sexual desires, she is to be joyfully available at all times, and blah blah blah blah blah.

Anna is a homeless woman with seven kids waiting to happen. JB's political career is over, and TLC is done. He has no need of worrying about his reputation which is toast anyway. In his religious cult he can claim god turned her over to a hardened, bitter heart, and their church, IBLP, their friends will all go, "Okay then." It is acceptable in the cult for children to be punished for the "sins" of their parents.

That girl has got to get the heck out of there now. She won't, and those kids are screwed because she won't. But, it is so dumb because she could contact any number of publishers, offer to give a tell all, and they would provide a ghost writer and an advance on the book which would help her get on her feet. Dateline would pay for an interview. She would be eligible for subsidized housing, food and utility assistance, paid for day care, and likely paid for community college so she can get job training. She will do exactly nothing with fingers crossed JB doesn't throw her to the street. Much will depend on sentencing. She is a financial albatross to him, and that is exactly the mindset he has demonstrated over the years not to mention his attitude towards females. They were filmed having meals in which there wasn't enough food for the whole family, and he and Josh would take there fill, and some of the girls were going hungry. Jill was filmed hiding in a closet with a can of green beans because she was so hungry. No male in that "family" went hungry.

Run Anna, Run!

[katilac]

13 hours ago, ktgrok said:

If I were Anna's friend I would not rush her to leave - not at all. Her kids are safe for now, and will be for years, and she has a roof over their head and food for them and such. Take her time and plan, causse leaving with 7 kids will not be anywhere NEAR easy. 

One of the biggest factors to me is that it would be nice for them to catch their breath from dad going to prison before losing everything and everyone they have ever known. Yes, JB, Michelle, and plenty of other Duggars are toxic, but it would be likely be devastating to rip those kids away from the cousins they have known since birth and see all the time. I'd want more of a plan, to know that we could likely stay where we were going for a long time. 

11 hours ago, Faith-manor said:

The only issue I have is that JB is a narcissist and all about the money. He can't earn money off his kids and grandkids anymore, and he is her entire source of financial support. He houses her and the kids in a warehouse with no windows. Not joking about that. It is referred to as "the warehome". She has no stability. He has zero legal obligation to support her, and no son working in one of his businesses earning money. JB can kick her and the kids to the curb at any time. Her own parents are abjectly poor living with a huge number of kids in a very run down mobile home in Florida, subsisting on the not robust donations that comes in to Pa Keller's prison ministry. She is in a VERY precarious position. And yes, JB would absolutely do it to her. When Jill had Israel and nearly bled to death with a preemie in NICU and no medical insurance, she and Derrick hit the skids financially. JB had NEVER paid her any wages for all her time on the show. He managed to get TLC to send ALL the money made off Counting On to him. Derrick and Jill faced a multi-hundreds of thousands of dollars bill and when Jill asked him for her back wages so she could pay off the debt/pay it down, he refused to give her a penny. She and Derrick had to sue him. She won, you can only imagine what the court thought. But she had to sue her father. Anna has been forced to give birth on camera for " ratings" and according to Derrick and others related to the family, she has never been paid either. No one has. JB has it all. The only one that got paid was Jinger after she married and moved out of state because TLC hsd to negotiate with Jeremy, and he was smart and said "No. The money is NOT going to JB's 'ministry'." TLC should be beat! I can't believe it was even legal.

So Anna has nothing, and a father in law who does not care one fig about anything but money for himself. He cut Jill out simply because he was 100% in the wrong, and she was trying to survive financially. If he will do it to his child, he will for darn sure do it to a daughter in law bringing him no monetary value. And IBLP teaches that what Josh did is not HIS fault, it is Anna's because she was supposed to guard him from temptation, she is supposed to provide for all of his sexual desires, she is to be joyfully available at all times, and blah blah blah blah blah.

Anna is a homeless woman with seven kids waiting to happen. JB's political career is over, and TLC is done. He has no need of worrying about his reputation which is toast anyway. In his religious cult he can claim god turned her over to a hardened, bitter heart, and their church, IBLP, their friends will all go, "Okay then." It is acceptable in the cult for children to be punished for the "sins" of their parents.

That girl has got to get the heck out of there now. She won't, and those kids are screwed because she won't. But, it is so dumb because she could contact any number of publishers, offer to give a tell all, and they would provide a ghost writer and an advance on the book which would help her get on her feet. Dateline would pay for an interview. She would be eligible for subsidized housing, food and utility assistance, paid for day care, and likely paid for community college so she can get job training. She will do exactly nothing with fingers crossed JB doesn't throw her to the street. Much will depend on sentencing. She is a financial albatross to him, and that is exactly the mindset he has demonstrated over the years not to mention his attitude towards females. They were filmed having meals in which there wasn't enough food for the whole family, and he and Josh would take there fill, and some of the girls were going hungry. Jill was filmed hiding in a closet with a can of green beans because she was so hungry. No male in that "family" went hungry.

Run Anna, Run!

If she gets money for interviews and/or books, then she won't be eligible for benefits until that money is gone. Unlike a lot of other people, I don't think she will be raking it in if she decides to tell all. I do think she could get some money, just not 'set for life' money like some are saying - she didn't grow up Duggar, and everyone knows a long list of Josh's sins already. 

I'm sure this is another 'varies by region' thing, but, in my area, she would not get all of those things. The Section 8 waiting list is so long that you can't even be added to it, and no one would rent to someone with 8 kids anyway. I'm not as sure about the projects, but I know we don't have a big program. And they are not tough enough for our projects. 

Our subsidized childcare slots are filled by lottery. I'm not familiar with the percentages, though. 

Basically, not trying to negate what you're saying, but a single parent with 8 kids is going to be living in clear poverty in my area. They will be living in the substandard housing, going to bad schools, not having enough healthy food, and public transportation to any type of training or job for the parent will be an extreme challenge. I'm just saying that I've seen enough of what government assistance can look like to not have full faith in that safety net. If it were the warehouse or my local poverty, I'd do my best to stay in the warehouse until my youngest was closer to school age. Once you are in poverty around here, it is very hard to dig your way out. 

I do want her out, not just out of the warehouse but out of the lifestyle, but I don't think it's crazy for her to take her time. In addition to the way she's been raised to defer to the patriarchy, it's hard to think fast when you've been traumatized. 

[Faith-manor]

8 hours ago, katilac said:

One of the biggest factors to me is that it would be nice for them to catch their breath from dad going to prison before losing everything and everyone they have ever known. Yes, JB, Michelle, and plenty of other Duggars are toxic, but it would be likely be devastating to rip those kids away from the cousins they have known since birth and see all the time. I'd want more of a plan, to know that we could likely stay where we were going for a long time. 

If she gets money for interviews and/or books, then she won't be eligible for benefits until that money is gone. Unlike a lot of other people, I don't think she will be raking it in if she decides to tell all. I do think she could get some money, just not 'set for life' money like some are saying - she didn't grow up Duggar, and everyone knows a long list of Josh's sins already. 

I'm sure this is another 'varies by region' thing, but, in my area, she would not get all of those things. The Section 8 waiting list is so long that you can't even be added to it, and no one would rent to someone with 8 kids anyway. I'm not as sure about the projects, but I know we don't have a big program. And they are not tough enough for our projects. 

Our subsidized childcare slots are filled by lottery. I'm not familiar with the percentages, though. 

Basically, not trying to negate what you're saying, but a single parent with 8 kids is going to be living in clear poverty in my area. They will be living in the substandard housing, going to bad schools, not having enough healthy food, and public transportation to any type of training or job for the parent will be an extreme challenge. I'm just saying that I've seen enough of what government assistance can look like to not have full faith in that safety net. If it were the warehouse or my local poverty, I'd do my best to stay in the warehouse until my youngest was closer to school age. Once you are in poverty around here, it is very hard to dig your way out. 

I do want her out, not just out of the warehouse but out of the lifestyle, but I don't think it's crazy for her to take her time. In addition to the way she's been raised to defer to the patriarchy, it's hard to think fast when you've been traumatized. 

She is going to be loving in poverty then no matter what. JB has demonstrated nothing but criminal indifference and apathy if not sociopathy towards children and females. He is an s.o.b. to say it mildly. 

I find it disturbing that with an infant in that compound and two grandparents who publicly advocated for the use of the Pearl book and blanket training infants, screen shots still in existence of Michelle admitting online that she beat infants as young as six months with plastic rulers, and the fact that staying makes JB her " headship" by IBLP standards, anyone would advocate for her staying. Disturbing. 

It baffles me that anyone would advocate for her to stay. These kids would be better off in foster care than in the Duggar compound. IBLP fanatics are just that evil.

[HS Mom in NC]

45 minutes ago, Faith-manor said:

 These kids would be better off in foster care than in the Duggar compound. IBLP fanatics are just that evil.

Not necessarily.  I'm not minimizing IBLP inspired abuse that's rampant and severe, I'm telling you fostercare is far worse than most people realize. (I'm not attacking good and decent fosterparents who are excellent options for children.)

I have a friend who works for a placement agency for the fostercare system.  No, fostercare is frequently differently equally bad or worse. The sexual and other forms of abuse rates for kids in the system by their fosterparents is shockingly high. I'm not saying there's no point at which gambling on getting a decent fosterparent is worth doing, I'm just saying most people are wildly naive about how common it is for children to go from bio parent abuse to abuse to fosterparent/fostersibling abuse.  Also, state fostercare systems are overwhelmed, so states are going to be hesitant to remove at all.  We live in a world where beating a 6 month old with a ruler and blaming sexual abuse of victims isn't always actionable because of the comparatively equal and worse situations going on with severely limited state resources. It's horrifying.

This friend had sued the state she lives and works in for knowingly leaving fosterkids in fosterhomes where documented abuse was going on.  Only in one case did they remove the child from that abuse. She was also instrumental in changing the standards in her state to criminal background checks going back more than 10 years. (I think it was 10, but it might've been a little longer.)  The state had been placing children with people who had undisclosed felonies dating back more than 10 years and didn't want to change the law because they're have to move so many kids to new home they didn't have enough of.

In another case she personally witnessed severe mental illness (drunken rages, self cutting, suicide threats) in a fosterparent and enabling by the spouse fosterparent  and reported it to the proper state authorities involved. (Different state than the one she lived and worked in.)   Those parents were still  allowed to adopt their fosterkids. 

Then there's the hard, cold reality of abused fosterkids living with other children.  Even excellent fosterparents cannot always manage the potential harm fosterkids who have been abused perpetrate on other children in the home. There's a huge need for childless fosterparents, but most have children making this an impossible situation.  I have another fosterparent friend who had to have her 6 year old fosterson removed after a few months because she walked in on him trying to rape her 2 year old son. The 6 year old had been sexually abused by at least 3 former fosterparents. He'd been in the system since 18 months old. Fosterparents can't allow the abused to abuse others, so tough choices have to be made-those children have to be moved out of those homes.  Bad fosterhomes where children are abused aren't likely to be upset by sexual abuse going on between children, so that's where many end up long term. It's a nightmare.

[Scarlett]

5 minutes ago, HS Mom in NC said:

Not necessarily.  I'm not minimizing IBLP inspired abuse that's rampant and severe, I'm telling you fostercare is far worse than most people realize. (I'm not attacking good and decent fosterparents who are excellent options for children.)

I have a friend who works for a placement agency for the fostercare system.  No, fostercare is frequently differently equally bad or worse. The sexual and other forms of abuse rates for kids in the system by their fosterparents is shockingly high. I'm not saying there's no point at which gambling on getting a decent fosterparent is worth doing, I'm just saying most people are wildly naive about how common it is for children to go from bio parent abuse to abuse to fosterparent/fostersibling abuse.  Also, state fostercare systems are overwhelmed, so states are going to be hesitant to remove at all.  We live in a world where beating a 6 month old with a ruler and blaming sexual abuse of victims isn't always actionable because of the comparatively equal and worse situations going on with severely limited state resources. It's horrifying.

This friend had sued the state she lives and works in for knowingly leaving fosterkids in fosterhomes where documented abuse was going on.  Only in one case did they remove the child from that abuse. She was also instrumental in changing the standards in her state to criminal background checks going back more than 10 years. (I think it was 10, but it might've been a little longer.)  The state had been placing children with people who had undisclosed felonies dating back more than 10 years and didn't want to change the law because they're have to move so many kids to new home they didn't have enough of.

In another case she personally witnessed severe mental illness (drunken rages, self cutting, suicide threats) in a fosterparent and enabling by the spouse fosterparent  and reported it to the proper state authorities involved. (Different state than the one she lived and worked in.)   Those parents were still  allowed to adopt their fosterkids. 

Then there's the hard, cold reality of abused fosterkids living with other children.  Even excellent fosterparents cannot always manage the potential harm fosterkids who have been abused perpetrate on other children in the home. There's a huge need for childless fosterparents, but most have children making this an impossible situation.  I have another fosterparent friend who had to have her 6 year old fosterson removed after a few months because she walked in on him trying to rape her 2 year old son. The 6 year old had been sexually abused by at least 3 former fosterparents. He'd been in the system since 18 months old. Fosterparents can't allow the abused to abuse others, so tough choices have to be made-those children have to be moved out of those homes.  Bad fosterhomes where children are abused aren't likely to be upset by sexual abuse going on between children, so that's where many end up long term. It's a nightmare.

I agree with all of this.  It is so easy for us to sit back and say these kids need to be removed from Anna.....but at least they have their mother and they are warm and safe and dry at the moment. 

I have many many friends who are foster parents.  Most have ended up adopting.  The things these kids are going through....not public like the Duggar kids, but trust me, much much worse.

[freesia]

1 hour ago, Faith-manor said:

She is going to be loving in poverty then no matter what. JB has demonstrated nothing but criminal indifference and apathy if not sociopathy towards children and females. He is an s.o.b. to say it mildly. 

I find it disturbing that with an infant in that compound and two grandparents who publicly advocated for the use of the Pearl book and blanket training infants, screen shots still in existence of Michelle admitting online that she beat infants as young as six months with plastic rulers, and the fact that staying makes JB her " headship" by IBLP standards, anyone would advocate for her staying. Disturbing. 

It baffles me that anyone would advocate for her to stay. These kids would be better off in foster care than in the Duggar compound. IBLP fanatics are just that evil.

It’s because the alternative of her leaving could be worse. Her leaving wouldn’t mean the Duggar’s would have no influence. If she believes in blanket training, she’ll do it regardless and will be under so much stress that the possibility for even more severe abuse is higher. The alternative isn’t a good foster care situation, it is living with an uneducated, stressed out, emotionally exhausted mother and many siblings in poverty. All we are saying is that getting her feet under her and making a plan rather than fleeing is wise. If she had another safe stable place to go, I would say otherwise. If Josh were returning, I would also say otherwise. 

[fairfarmhand]

47 minutes ago, freesia said:

It’s because the alternative of her leaving could be worse. Her leaving wouldn’t mean the Duggar’s would have no influence. If she believes in blanket training, she’ll do it regardless and will be under so much stress that the possibility for even more severe abuse is higher. The alternative isn’t a good foster care situation, it is living with an uneducated, stressed out, emotionally exhausted mother and many siblings in poverty. All we are saying is that getting her feet under her and making a plan rather than fleeing is wise. If she had another safe stable place to go, I would say otherwise. If Josh were returning, I would also say otherwise. 

If she can make plans and wait 5 years till youngest is of school age, that will open doors. Having the kids able to all be in school would allow her to work and maybe scrape by. 

[Pam in CT]

re deeply traumatized woman, facing one horrifically lousy choice vs a different horrifically lousy choice

22 hours ago, Faith-manor said:

The only issue I have is that JB is a narcissist and all about the money. He can't earn money off his kids and grandkids anymore, and he is her entire source of financial support. He houses her and the kids in a warehouse with no windows. Not joking about that. It is referred to as "the warehome". She has no stability. He has zero legal obligation to support her, and no son working in one of his businesses earning money. JB can kick her and the kids to the curb at any time. Her own parents are abjectly poor living with a huge number of kids in a very run down mobile home in Florida, subsisting on the not robust donations that comes in to Pa Keller's prison ministry. She is in a VERY precarious position. And yes, JB would absolutely do it to her. When Jill had Israel and nearly bled to death with a preemie in NICU and no medical insurance, she and Derrick hit the skids financially. JB had NEVER paid her any wages for all her time on the show. He managed to get TLC to send ALL the money made off Counting On to him. Derrick and Jill faced a multi-hundreds of thousands of dollars bill and when Jill asked him for her back wages so she could pay off the debt/pay it down, he refused to give her a penny. She and Derrick had to sue him. She won, you can only imagine what the court thought. But she had to sue her father. Anna has been forced to give birth on camera for " ratings" and according to Derrick and others related to the family, she has never been paid either. No one has. JB has it all. The only one that got paid was Jinger after she married and moved out of state because TLC hsd to negotiate with Jeremy, and he was smart and said "No. The money is NOT going to JB's 'ministry'." TLC should be beat! I can't believe it was even legal.

So Anna has nothing, and a father in law who does not care one fig about anything but money for himself. He cut Jill out simply because he was 100% in the wrong, and she was trying to survive financially. If he will do it to his child, he will for darn sure do it to a daughter in law bringing him no monetary value. And IBLP teaches that what Josh did is not HIS fault, it is Anna's because she was supposed to guard him from temptation, she is supposed to provide for all of his sexual desires, she is to be joyfully available at all times, and blah blah blah blah blah.

Anna is a homeless woman with seven kids waiting to happen. JB's political career is over, and TLC is done. He has no need of worrying about his reputation which is toast anyway. In his religious cult he can claim god turned her over to a hardened, bitter heart, and their church, IBLP, their friends will all go, "Okay then." It is acceptable in the cult for children to be punished for the "sins" of their parents.

That girl has got to get the heck out of there now. She won't, and those kids are screwed because she won't. But, it is so dumb because she could contact any number of publishers, offer to give a tell all, and they would provide a ghost writer and an advance on the book which would help her get on her feet. Dateline would pay for an interview. She would be eligible for subsidized housing, food and utility assistance, paid for day care, and likely paid for community college so she can get job training. She will do exactly nothing with fingers crossed JB doesn't throw her to the street. Much will depend on sentencing. She is a financial albatross to him, and that is exactly the mindset he has demonstrated over the years not to mention his attitude towards females. They were filmed having meals in which there wasn't enough food for the whole family, and he and Josh would take there fill, and some of the girls were going hungry. Jill was filmed hiding in a closet with a can of green beans because she was so hungry. No male in that "family" went hungry.

Run Anna, Run!

I agree with each detail characterizing her current horrifically lousy situation.

Anna is functionally homeless now, living in a windowless warehouse.

Anna is living in abject poverty now, unable to make basic choices about clothing her 7 kids, with every morsel of food she's able to feed them

wholly dependent financially now upon the whims of an arbitrary man who doesn't care a whit for her.

 

She may, upon jumping through a whole lot of bureaucratic hoops, possibly be able to transition to another situation in which she

...could still be functionally homeless, but in a shelter or provisional housing funded by the largesse of the state of Arkansas, which might have windows, though would likely much more cramped than the warehouse

... still live in abject poverty, but receiving a patchwork of federal WIC /SNAP benefits perhaps supplemented by the largesse of the state of Arkansas, which would still leave her ability to make basic choices about food & clothing for her 7 kids pretty dang constrained

... would NECESSARILY have to spend an enormous amount of time & energy figuring out and navigating all the byzantine hoops to understand what supports are available to her

... would NECESSARILY have to keep up with the regular paperwork to maintain any benefits over time when she's never once in her life done anything of the sort

... would in short order be expected to work. Which is *very hard* in America when you have 7 kids, even with a partner and supportive family, even within a religion and culture in which it's normative for mothers to work. None of which she has.

 

Both choices are LOUSY.  I mean, really and truly no good terrible awful horrible LOUSY. And she's individually traumatized. And nothing in her upbringing equipped her ever to have to face such an awesome choice between two almost-equally LOUSY alternatives.  And if she chooses the second door she'll instantly cut herself off from every person in her life that she ever believed cared about her.

And she's been trained to believe, if she chooses the second door she'll be sinning against God.  Don't underestimate the power of such training.

 

If this were a novel, this is the part where the protagonist considers suicide.

Which (this goes without saying, but I'll say it) WOULD NOT HELP THE SEVEN KIDS.

 

Any teeny tiny bit of space that enables her to take a breath and shake one cobweb from her head and think of one person over the course of her life who ever sent out one flare toward her that gave her one fleeting thought that maybe just maybe if I managed to reach out that person would pick up the phone... that's where hope lies.

What she has now, is the gift of TIME.  Yeah, it's in a warehouse managed by a godless demon. 

Nonetheless, time.

[Scarlett]

@Pam in CT  Well said. 

The entire situation is just so sad.

[Spryte]

I’m sure this has been discussed before, but I must ask, as an aside: Living in that windowless warehouse — is that even legal? How does that work with fire codes?

I know only what I’ve read here over the years, about this family, in fact learned about them here. Such a deeply disturbing story.

Does he control her communications with the outside world? Can she use this time to prepare to leave? 

[Sneezyone]

Just now, Spryte said:

I’m sure this has been discussed before, but I must ask, as an aside: Living in that windowless warehouse — is that even legal? How does that work with fire codes?

I know only what I’ve read here over the years, about this family, in fact learned about them here. Such a deeply disturbing story.

Does he control her communications with the outside world? Can she use this time to prepare to leave? 

Arkansas has essentially zero habitability requirements.

[Spryte]

4 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

Arkansas has essentially zero habitability requirements.

Oh, that explains it. Thanks.

[Katy]

Either on Reddit or maybe Pickles FB group someone claimed to be a social worker in Arkansas. She said if the kids were removed they might require her to move to a safer place to get the kids back, but it wouldn’t be grounds for removing them in Arkansas. 

And while Jill did sue her dad, she didn’t win. It never made it to court. He settled for roughly minimum wage, which made what he did to Jill barely legal. They paid off medical debt, bought that house, and Derrick went to law school with the settlement. 

[Faith-manor]

I had a long post. I also realize there is zero point in it. People on the outside refuse to comprehend the evil inside IBLP /Pearl thumping households. Suffice it to say that anyone who thinks staying in order to "breathe" or "clear the cobwebs" is better than running like the wind to the nearest domestic violence shelter is sadly naive.

I have been the parentified teenager sister mom of a baby/toddler/preschooler who by four years of age was suicidal and praying to Jesus to let die which my parents thought was so cute because "she must just love the idea of heaven", but I had caught her with a knife cutting her arms so I knew better and slept on her floor night after night.

I left home at sixteen and went to live with my aunt and uncle, and cried uncontrollably because I was leaving her behind. But my grandparents intervened, my mother finally grew a backbone, and my father went to counseling. So things got a lot better for her. Still, all that abuse in her formative years caused her serious problems which did not get better until she was in her late twenties after years of secular counseling/therapy. My father died with nothing resolved between us. I am okay with that. My sister was not.

It is a mystery to me, the attitude here. Duggars are open, unashamed advocates of the Pearls, and IBLP is clear that JB is now Anna's headship. People here have been wildly against the Pearls. The concept of leaving kids with the devil's spawn for any reason is just something I cannot wrap my brain around.

That is the last I will say on that. I think it is probably the last I will ever say about IBLP. People don't want to believe it.

And yes, I misspoke or rather didn't express myself well. The lawsuit was indeed settled. I can just about imagine what court employees thought at the time of the filing. I don't think the Duggar local reputation is very good. Derrick has confirmed that they did receive money, just no details which is typical because often settling comes with disclosure rules. But I considered it a win for Jill in a battle with a truly evil parent. I should have been clearer.

Peace. I will leave y'all alone about this.

[HS Mom in NC]

25 minutes ago, Faith-manor said:

People don't want to believe it.

There's no need to take your ball and go home.

You're only listening to yourself and your thoughts and feelings, not what other people in the know are telling you.  That's a choice you're making. Sometimes people who see one form of abuse firsthand develop tunnel vision and convince themselves that form of abuse is worse than all others.  The terrible reality is, there are all kinds of abuse all around us and most people don't have a way out of it. The scale of it is staggering and the resources required are far more than any state in the US has.

It's not that people don't want to believe it.  They do and they've said so. They know IBLP abuse is worse that reported because full scale investigations haven't happened yet.  Where there's smoke, there's fire. Posters here are just saying it isn't the only evil in the world that those children could be victimized by. The support systems you've advocated aren't better most of the time based on experiences from those who have seen it first hand.  The US lacks the kind of reliable infrastructure necessary to provide a way out for victims all across the spectrum of domestic abuse.  They don't have enough safe fosterparents. In all seriousness, no snark,  feel free to get fostercare certification and take placements and be the kind of fosterparent kids like the Duggars need. The US needs as many as they can get. But if you don't, realize that other people can't/won't for similar reasons and other just as valid reasons, which is why the need is so great and will continue to grow. 

People can only choose from actual options that:
1. exist
2. they know about
3. they have access to

For most people, they don't have any of the 3, and many lack 1 or 2. A functional, long-term, government funded support system for victims of domestic abuse does not currently exist.  A fostercare system significantly more likely to provide safer families than the ones abused children leave does not currently exist. Most fosterkids are abused while in the system and/or are abusing other children in their foster homes. Talk to fosterparents. Talk to adults who were fosterchildren.  I interviewed about a dozen before I got my fosterparent certification then opted to go international to adopt.  Abused in a fosterfamily is not better than being abused in biofamilies. Until the necessary structures exist and are accessible, people have to choose between evils because there are evils all around. I don't want that to be true.  It's true whether I accept it as such or not.

[Pam in CT]

Faith, FWIW I believe every word you've ever posted in this thread and others about IBLP. And my heart hurts for you and your sister.  And Anna's and her kids.

And I don't disagree either that she "should" leave.  The only distinction is around what, functionally, "can" means.

[Mrs Tiggywinkle]

My parents flirted with Gothardism.  They went to one of the Basic seminars and thought it was weird, but their homeschool mentors in the mid to late 80s were big into IBLP.  They had the basic seminar books, the weird animal character books, and the pineapple story.  My mom veered more into the Mary Pride/Cheryl Lindsey crunchiness after a while and she never spoke very highly of IBLP, but we lurked on the fringes.  Her best friend was very much a Gothardite and tried to join their homeschool academy but the application was rejected.  The husband had facial hair and they weren’t really a strict dresses only, or at least those were the reasons given.  They were very, very poor—like five kids in a two bedroom house unable to buy food poor.  That family was most definitely abusive, but I think the parents would have been abusive without Gothard—he just gave them permission. All five of their kids are college graduates now.
We hung out with another family that was big into IBLP too, but they were wealthy(dad was a doctor) and frankly even though they went to all the camps, journey of the heart, and alert(one of their sons is still an alert leader), and the parents spoke at the conference, they sent at least two of their daughters to college. One is pursuing a PhD in cell biology and is no longer religious; the others are everything from quasi religious to the son who still works for Alert. The adult children say there was no abuse in their home. 
Every homeschool group in the late 80s-mid90s had at least one hard core Gothard family, and they were all my mom’s peer group. So while I was on the edges, my experience was really that each family did it very differently. Some families joined and did wisdom booklets and supplemented other curriculum.  I knew at least one family that went to the yearly conference, was dresses only, stay at home daughters, and eschewed physical discipline.  My point is that everyone in IBLP did it a little differently. Also, not every Independent Fundamental Baptist like Anna’s family got into IBLP—my aunt is a hard core KJV 1611 only IFB and not a single person in her church ever followed Gothard(I asked my cousin the other day; she’d never really heard of Gothard).  My point is just that it’s hard to generalize; every family I knew-last night my sister and I counted 30 families we knew growing up who attended the Advanced Basic seminar and followed a lot of the IBLP rules, went to the conference, etc—all of them did it just a little differently.  We don’t really know how into it Anna’s family was.  They are definately hard core KJV 1611 Old Path Independent Fundamental Baptists, but other than the conferences there isn’t much to go on.  Anna’s brother married Nurie Rodrigues, who’s mother literally grew up five miles from me and their family attended my aunt’s church—in fact, Jill attended elementary school at the Baptist church my in-laws now attend and one of my cousin’s was good friends with her older sister Lisa. They were/are hardcore IFB, but there was never really any Gothard involvement. They were homeschooling, skirt wearing, KJV separatists, but not IBLP. It wouldn’t  surprise me if Anna’s family was not as involved in IBLP as we assume. Lots of people attended the conferences without really knowing or understanding all IBLP preached.

 

Anna can’t just leave. I’ve posted this before, but section 8 is a long waiting list. Then you have to find someplace approved for 8 people, which is almost impossible.  She’ll be required to work, which means childcare.  School is great, but what about after school and summers and spring break and holidays and teachers conferences.  You need childcare for then, which is hard to find for 7 kids. I have a master’s degree and make almost six figures and I could not find and afford childcare for 3 kids on that.  Subsidies here are a lottery and only about 50% on the list get it.  I’m guessing  Arkansas has even fewer social safety nets than New York. Finding childcare for 7 kids is impossible, so you’ll have to split them up between day care and after school care and then probably a second child care situation for some of the kids when school isn’t in session. Subsidies only pay for licensed childcare, so you can’t just use the money to hire a sitter to stay at your house after school. Now you’ve got to figure out transportation to child care before and after work. God forbid you work non traditional hours or second/third shift or weekends, so that eliminates most low skilled positions, the type Anna’s going to qualify for. She needs work training or college, so now she has to add that on top of everything else, because you can’t get cash assistance and welfare forever.  
One possibility is to move in with her parents—they only have, IIRC, one child left at home. But we truly have no idea if they are even in a position to help her, either.  By staying in the warehouse she has access to physical and emotional support, not only financial.

I have  a good job, only 3 kids, and a college education; and right now if my husband went to prison, I’d have a really hard time trying to figure out logistics without the support of my in-laws. The difference is that if my husband did something like what Josh did, my in laws would disown him in a heartbeat and throw every needed support my way, and they are fantastic, non-toxic people.  But I’d never be able to manage it alone.

 

Edited February 18, 2022 by Mrs Tiggywinkle

[Scarlett]

Adding that I too believe the stories.  

Anna just has no good options. 

[gardenmom5]

Faith - I have found, those who have had experience far from what you're describing, can have a difficult time comprehending.  Some are willing to try, some aren't.
Many of us here do comprehend these people are truly EVIL.   Most of us have read what you have said over the years - (in addition to our own readings) - and we believe what you're saying.

These conversations are pure hypotheticals, because nothing we say will make a difference.   None of our suggestions will lead to any change for Anna and her children. I think everyone here would love to see her get out, we want her and her children to have a better life - however, it would be better if she doesn't jump from the frying pan into the fire itself.

She really needs to go through "cult deprogramming".   Even if she were willing to leave - no job skills, no money, seven kids, still enmeshed in dehumanizing cult thinking (you can take her away from the cult, but until you take the cult out of her . . . .)  = the logistics are extremely complicated. 

The best case scenario is josh gets a minimum 20 years - and JB has a heart attack and dies.  (as long as we're fantasizing . . . 😜 he gives me the creeps.)  I would like to think, as repulsive as M is, that she be more supportive of her grandchildren than is JB.