Omicron anecdata?

[catz]

I am not an epidemiologist nor do I play one on TV, but my understanding is that with further exposures (and I suspect either via exposure, infection, and certainly vaccination) the broader your immune system will cover.  

One analogy I saw that I liked was something like if the original virus was as squirrel, these initial vaccines are honing a picture of a squirrel for your immune system so it knows what to attack.  Maybe delta was a squirrel with a clown nose, so it looks a little different but your immune system still recognizes it pretty well so can mount a pretty good attack.  Well omicron is a little MORE different so maybe it's a squirrel with the clown nose AND pink wings.  Your immune system takes a little longer to respond figuring that out so maybe you have your cold symptoms for a few days, but it's still very  good protection from severe disease.  

So then later we get a vaccine that is updated to teach our immune system about clown noses and wings on squirrels.  Subsequent variations are more likely to have some of those variations and then maybe have a rainbow tail or something, but your immune system will still be more in the know having the exposure to that clown nosed winged squirrel.  So that is why having that vaccine out in March even if omicron burns through may be worthwhile.   Obviously Pfizer is thinking of their bottom line too but I also don't think stuff without solid data is going to be recommended.  

And obviously YMMV for those that can not be vaccinated or are on immune suppressing drugs or otherwise don't have healthy immune system function.  And I'm also not saying it's going to be eradicated, just that vaccination even though it feels pointless may still be worth pursuing.  I'm pretty intrigued by the vaccine the army is rolling out that is supposed to be more variant flexible.  It'll be interesting to see how phase 2 and 3 trials go for that.  I've always thought our 2nd and 3rd gen vaccine and treatment options may be much better than we get out of the gate.  This will be endemic eventually.  

ETA - missed linking the first time, decent explanation.

https://www.bbc.com/news/health-59639973

Edited January 10, 2022 by FuzzyCatz

[catz]

NM - double post

Edited January 10, 2022 by FuzzyCatz

[Pam in CT]

re religious sensibility

3 hours ago, Quill said:

This makes me think I would make a better Jew than I do a Christian. 

Well, that and I like potato pancakes. 

Yabbut, you have to eat the gefilte fish too. Sorry, I don't make the rules.

 

re Rachel Held Evans

3 hours ago, ktgrok said:

One of the first visits to our new church the youth leader explained to the kids that we need to "Be Part of the MIracle", which is the slogan for the year. She explained it as instead of praying for a miracle, we pray to ask God how we can help create a miracle. That idea really hit me hard, and I've been returning to it over and over and over. God, how can I help this miracle happen? What can I do to be a part of the miracle you are bringing about?

The book Inspired by Rachel Held Evans goes into the Jewish way of reading the Bible and understanding God, and how we have lost a lot of that in modern Christianity. A really great read. Highly recommend. 

❤️

The best podcast I've listened to in ages is this one, where my beloved Krista Tippett interviews Evans' friend Jeff Chu, who recently completed, in collaboration with Evans' husband, a posthumous book (Wholehearted Faith) of the writing she was working on at the time of her untimely death. Haven't yet read the book, but the podcast is *wonderful.*

 

re vaccine whack-a-mole

1 hour ago, kristin0713 said:

This is exactly why I did not see any benefit in getting a booster. And what good will it do if it is not out until March. Maybe it will help some people (and that would be great) but this thing is so contagious that most will have had it or been exposed by then. We we will probably have moved on to the next variant. It feels like we are chasing the common cold with no end in sight. 

That's exactly what we ARE doing, except that this disease has killed 825K+ Americans in less than two years and disabled thousands more; is on its third round of causing widespread hospital overwhelm, and leaving mountains of financial liabilities behind for both affected families and affected hospitals that will take years to dig out from.

It is *really discouraging* that there is no end in sight.

Nonetheless I am really grateful for the vaccine developers that are (it is now evident) chasing the variant we have with (it is now evident) weary resignation that this disease will keep mutating new variants as fast as they develop tools to deal with the current one. May God bless and keep them.

And though I don't love getting shots any more than the next person, it is far better for both individuals and even more so for the overstrained health care providers that I take the ~$20 shot than a $2500++ MCAB treatment. (Regardless of who is picking up the costs for the vaccine or MCAB or the administrative costs of either.)

 

 

43 minutes ago, kristin0713 said:

I didn't mean that covid has become as benign as the common cold, but that it is proving to be hard to eradicate with a vaccine. I would like to be wrong. I had really hoped (and genuinely thought) that the vaccines last year were the beginning of the end of this thing. 

Me too. For a brief couple of months after I got mine, I felt like Wonder Woman.  Then came Delta.

It's going to be a very long story.  And we still don't know how it ends.  Which is a miserable, existential, experience to be in the middle of.

 

[Matryoshka]

4 hours ago, regentrude said:

what would change for the patient if they knew which variant it is? What would they do differently based on that information?

Well, for one thing the monoclonal antibodies (at least the two types most being used) are useless against Omicron.  

[Corraleno]

RE: Pfizer's omicron-specific booster 

The reason Pfizer & Moderna didn't manufacture delta-specific boosters was because their testing indicated that the original vaccines were just as effective against delta as the delta-specific versions, and the original vaccine was more effective against the non-delta variants.

But with omicron, (1) they know that the original vaccines are not nearly as effective as they were against prior variants; (2) given how incredibly widespread omicron is, it's not unlikely that the next variant(s) may evolve from omicron, or from delta/delta+, which was also extremely widespread; and (3) omicron seems to provide much better protection against delta than delta provides against omicron, so a vaccine that includes omicron may also provide decent protection against the other variants — as well as future variants that develop from them.

So it makes sense to make the next generation of vaccines/boosters include protection against omicron, even if omicron has already "burned through" most countries, because it's probably a better bet in terms of protection against current and future variants than continuing to produce vaccines based on the original strain that appeared more than two years ago. 

[KSera]

Not to beat a dead horse, but on the "with" vs "for" issue, I'm seeing doctors reporting this on Twitter:

More in examples in the comments. Everything is crazy.

eta: Also, the PE issue is one to be aware of specifically. Lots and lots of reports of people coming in with PE after omicron. I haven't seen any data on it yet and if this is indeed an increase over previous variants.

Edited January 11, 2022 by KSera

[BeachGal]

Gritstone is seeking volunteers for its second stage, phase 1 samRNA vaccine at St. Louis University.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/medical/slu-looking-for-volunteers-for-covid-19-booster-vaccine-clinic/ar-AASDo3U

 

Quote

 

It’s in an effort to develop new COVID vaccines that can protect against all future variants that develop. It appears safe.

The clinical trial is testing the safety, tolerability, and immune responses stimulated by different doses of investigational COVID-19 second-generation booster vaccines manufactured by Gritstone bio, Inc.

Volunteers will participate in the second (booster) stage of a phase 1 vaccine trial. The trial is looking for COVID-19 vaccinated people who have not yet received a booster vaccine. 

The Gritstone second-generation vaccines are different from current vaccines because they are designed to elicit an immune response to multiple SARS-CoV-2 strains and variants. In monkey models of COVID-19 infection, the vaccine protected against experimental infection and resulted in high levels of antibodies.   

To enroll, participants must be age 18 or older, healthy, without significant allergies, without a history of prior SARS-CoV-2 infection and have been vaccinated against COVID-19 at least four months prior to enrollment. Persons over the age of 60 are encouraged to participate.

 

 

https://markets.businessinsider.com/news/stocks/gritstone-bio-s-covid-19-booster-dose-shows-early-neutralizing-antibody-responses-1031076150

Gritstone bio Inc (NASDAQ:GRTS) has shared data from the first cohort (10 µg dose) of the Phase 1 booster trial of self-amplifying mRNA (samRNA) COVID-19 vaccine.

• The data demonstrated strong neutralizing antibody responses to Spike and robust CD8+ T cell responses. 
• A single 10 µg dose of the CORAL program's samRNA vaccine was administered to healthy adults ≥60 years (n=10) at least 22 weeks after two-dose series of AstraZeneca Plc's (NASDAQ: AZN) Vaxzevria.
• Related Link: Gritstone Says Omicron Mutations Minimally Impact T-Cell Epitope Sequences In Its COVID-19 Vaccines.
• CORAL's samRNA vaccine was well-tolerated and demonstrated a favorable safety profile with no grade 3/4 adverse events or unexpected reactogenicity or safety events.

More about the Gritstone vaccine here:

https://pharmaphorum.com/news/gritstone-bio-trumpets-first-data-for-multivariant-covid-jab/

Edited January 11, 2022 by BeachGal

[BeachGal]

41 minutes ago, KSera said:

eta: Also, the PE issue is one to be aware of specifically. Lots and lots of reports of people coming in with PE after omicron. I haven't seen any data on it yet and if this is indeed an increase over previous variants.

I'd appreciate it if you could post any data about pulmonary embolisms and omicron. Yikes. Scary stuff especially if they're seeing it even in asymptomatic patients.

Edited January 11, 2022 by BeachGal

[Jean in Newcastle]

49 minutes ago, KSera said:

Not to beat a dead horse, but on the "with" vs "for" issue, I'm seeing doctors reporting this on Twitter:

More in examples in the comments. Everything is crazy.

eta: Also, the PE issue is one to be aware of specifically. Lots and lots of reports of people coming in with PE after omicron. I haven't seen any data on it yet and if this is indeed an increase over previous variants.

I've tried twice to click on this to read further on what was said on Twitter and it's redirecting me to something else entirely.  Can you explain to me - is she saying that the unprovoked PE is 100% not connected to the Covid?  Or is she misinformed about the connection? 

[Corraleno]

18 minutes ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

I've tried twice to click on this to read further on what was said on Twitter and it's redirecting me to something else entirely.  Can you explain to me - is she saying that the unprovoked PE is 100% not connected to the Covid?  Or is she misinformed about the connection? 

See if this link works for you: https://twitter.com/eemoin/status/1480670263742246915

ETA: The discussion =  these issues (clots, a fib, etc) are symptoms of covid, and there are too many cases being listed as "with" that are in fact "of" because doctors are only looking for symptoms like cough, fever, etc.

 

Edited January 11, 2022 by Corraleno

[KSera]

49 minutes ago, BeachGal said:

I'd appreciate it if you could post any data about pulmonary embolisms and omicron. Yikes. Scary stuff especially if they're seeing it even in asymptomatic patients.

Like I said, I don't have data, I just keep seeing reports like this:

39 minutes ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

I've tried twice to click on this to read further on what was said on Twitter and it's redirecting me to something else entirely.  Can you explain to me - is she saying that the unprovoked PE is 100% not connected to the Covid?  Or is she misinformed about the connection? 

Hopefully Corraleno's link worked (I find I need to ctrl-click on the date in a twitter link in order to open it here). I agree with @Corraleno's explanation as well. The point of the thread is that patients keep being admitted with clotting or cardiac disorders of various kind, and then listed as "asymptomatic covid" when these things have a known association with covid.

[BeachGal]

8 minutes ago, KSera said:

Like I said, I don't have data, I just keep seeing reports like this:

Spooky stuff. I've been trying to find out what they're seeing in hospitals. It doesn't appear to be all that mild if it's causing clots. It's definitely not a nothing burger for some.

[KSera]

16 minutes ago, BeachGal said:

Spooky stuff. I've been trying to find out what they're seeing in hospitals. It doesn't appear to be all that mild if it's causing clots. It's definitely not a nothing burger for some.

That's exactly what ICU doctors are saying. Mild means not hospitalized, but they are still seeing tons of hospitalization, and though they're not putting as many people on ventilators, they are seeing a lot of clotting issues still and are warning people not to be complacent about it being "mild".

[Kassia]

Wow, I had no idea.  That is really scary.  Thanks for sharing.  

[BeachGal]

4 minutes ago, KSera said:

That's exactly what ICU doctors are saying. Mild means not hospitalized, but they are still seeing tons of hospitalization, and though they're not putting as many people on ventilators, they are seeing a lot of clotting issues still and are warning people not to be complacent about it being "mild".

We've had a number of people in my complex taken away be ambulance in the past two weeks. One of them was a toddler. They all have Covid and almost all of them are fully vaccinated that I know of. Not sure of the toddler. 🙁

[BeachGal]

5 minutes ago, Kassia said:

Wow, I had no idea.  That is really scary.  Thanks for sharing.  

I was hoping they would not be seeing the clotting, but it appears they're still seeing it in some cases.

Edited January 11, 2022 by BeachGal

[Matryoshka]

9 minutes ago, BeachGal said:

I was hoping they would not be seeing the clotting, but it appears they're still seeing some cases.

It's weird, my dad (almost 86, vaxxed and boosted) was just in the hospital 5 days with bilateral PE (plus a clot in a leg).  He's now home on blood thinners. He had no 'cold' symptoms and I'm assuming they test everyone coming in for Covid regardless... no? I'm having my mom double-check.

And anyone know how long post-Covid clotting can show up? Apparently he's had no sense of smell since they both got a 'really bad cold' after attending a funeral in March 2020 - the week before lockdowns, when it was already really bad here in the northeast and no one knew. He tested negative for antibodies 6 months later,  but they fade, right?  I've been wondering. There's no smoking gun as to why he got this...

Edited January 11, 2022 by Matryoshka

[BeachGal]

7 minutes ago, Matryoshka said:

It's weird, my dad (almost 86, vaxxed and boosted) was just in the hospital 5 days with bilateral PE (plus a clot in a leg).  He's now home on blood thinners. He had no 'cold' symptoms and I'm assuming they test everyone coming in for Covid regardless... no? I'm having my mom double-check.

And anyone know how long after post-Covid clotting can show up? Apparently he's had no sense of smell since they both got a 'really bad cold' after attending a funeral in March 2020 - the week before lockdowns, when it was already really bad here in the northeast and no one knew. He tested negative for antibodies 6 months later,  but they fade, right?  I've been wondering. There's no smoking gun as to why he got this...

I'm sorry to hear that about your dad. I have no idea how long the clots occur with Covid. I'm curious about that, too.

Antibodies do fade but now they can also measure t cells which could show a prior infection. The test is called T-Detect. It's a blood draw. I think it's pretty easy to get tested but I'm not 100% sure.

https://www.t-detect.com/about-t-detect/

[kbutton]

 

On 1/9/2022 at 12:56 PM, bolt. said:

I just emailed to cancel my church obligations. Until omicron passes, I'll be doing online church and not teaching sunday school. It's hard disappointing others and leaving them in the lurch -- but our provincial numbers are just too high to be going to church gatherings. I wish they would cancel church altogether. Some of our people are unvaccinated just trucking along like, "Jesus loves me, so germs won't hurt me" -- I hate it.

https://www.newsweek.com/pastor-says-theres-no-connection-between-blood-jesus-covid-spread-1666920?fbclid=IwAR0PVkONkCJK6bRZX2hMm_M0dOB9ssJKUOkIHYzaNwriUsQIW7cKKb-GQTY

Quote

"My response to that is the blood of Jesus protects them from sins; the vaccine covers the virus. There is no connection between the blood of Jesus and the sacrificial death of Jesus and the spread whether it's omicron or another variant," Guns told local news station WAVY.

 

[lauraw4321]

Apologies for ignoring thread drift. 

Middle DD tested positive on 1/2 (at home rapid test). She complained of fatigue and said it was caused by staying up until midnight on NYE. My spider senses went off and tested her. 
 

She was isolated. Other two continued going to school. She was really fine free 24 hours. Sniffly nose was the only symptom. 
 

We did daily testing of youngest and oldest before sending them to school. 
 

This morning, 1/9, youngest complained of sore throat. Home test positive. Isolating her (as much as possible) in her room. I felt tired but tested neg. 

Everyone who was exposed to middle DD on 1/1 and 1/2 tested neg on 1/7 (5th day per CDC recommendations). 
 

Now I’m left wondering whether youngest got it at school or from her sister. 

[Roadrunner]

Ran into this story today on Yahoo front page. 
This is just for one hospital (UCSF), but still an interested tidbit about hospitalization.

”There are currently 44 patients with COVID at UCSF hospitals in San Francisco and Oakland. Of those patients, 31 were admitted for other ailments but tested positive, while 13 were admitted because of COVID. Dr. Noble says about half of those admitted due to COVID were unvaccinated. The other half are immunocompromised.”

https://abc7news.com/amp/omicron-covid-update-san-francisco-surge-ucsf-doctor-on/11428787/

[Roadrunner]

Meanwhile my kid’s classmates are falling ill daily. At least three kids who sit next to DS in various classes have tested positive. 
80% of my county is fully vaccinated. Massive lines for booster shots. Testing sites are closing because they have run out of tests. 

[ktgrok]

9 hours ago, lauraw4321 said:

This morning, 1/9, youngest complained of sore throat. Home test positive. Isolating her (as much as possible) in her room. I felt tired but tested neg. 

Everyone who was exposed to middle DD on 1/1 and 1/2 tested neg on 1/7 (5th day per CDC recommendations). 
 

Now I’m left wondering whether youngest got it at school or from her sister. 

That's 5 days after first exposure, but middle DD was still contagious for up to 5 days, so if they caught it on say, 1/5, then it would make sense they tested negative at first, but then positive. 

My own nieces took several days of exposure to spread it - 2nd niece didn't catch it for a week after first niece  got it. 

[cintinative]

49 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

 

My own nieces took several days of exposure to spread it - 2nd niece didn't catch it for a week after first niece  got it. 

remind me--was this early December? 

 

I am trying to figure out if we know if the time to presentation of symptoms is shortening with Omicron being more dominant.  

Anecdotal report: our assistant pastor's family is all sick.  Two adults, three children. Only one tested positive. All of them symptomatic.  

[mommyoffive]

CDC Director: Covid vaccines can't prevent transmission anymore (msn.com)

[freesia]

20 minutes ago, cintinative said:

remind me--was this early December? 

 

I am trying to figure out if we know if the time to presentation of symptoms is shortening with Omicron being more dominant.  

Anecdotal report: our assistant pastor's family is all sick.  Two adults, three children. Only one tested positive. All of them symptomatic.  

For MIL and SIL, they presented with symptoms 2 and 3 days after exposure to Omicron (or what I'm assuming is Omicron bc we are in an area that is at least 95% Omicron and all the people who got Covid from this exposure were vaccinated--including patient O.)

[cintinative]

Just now, mommyoffive said:

CDC Director: Covid vaccines can't prevent transmission anymore (msn.com)

my husband was really frustrated about this idea yesterday. 

He said that if we stop meeting (in schools, for example), aren't we just kicking the can down the road? I said, well if we are, we are doing it so the HCWs are not overwhelmed. But he seemed to think we were just delaying the overwhelm to a later date.

To be honest, I am not sure what to make of it at the moment. People here won't mask, or if they are "required" to, they will do it poorly.  Is there a way for us to avoid rapid transmission if people refuse to mask (which is true in our area)? 

[whitestavern]

23 minutes ago, mommyoffive said:

CDC Director: Covid vaccines can't prevent transmission anymore (msn.com)

This should really put an end to the vaccine mandate debate. 

[kbutton]

23 minutes ago, cintinative said:

Is there a way for us to avoid rapid transmission if people refuse to mask (which is true in our area)? 

I think not, sadly. People need to curtail their activities. I think at least some age groups are--there is a big uptick in people picking up groceries again according to Kroger (we get notices to expect delays due to more pick-up orders). 

People my age just don't care though. Not at all. They are still out and about like nothing ever happened or is happening. 

 

[heartlikealion]

35 minutes ago, mommyoffive said:

CDC Director: Covid vaccines can't prevent transmission anymore (msn.com)

Yikes. 

[mlktwins]

41 minutes ago, mommyoffive said:

CDC Director: Covid vaccines can't prevent transmission anymore (msn.com)

Did they every really prevent transmission?  I never trusted that they did.  

We are all vaccinated and boostered in my house, but I'm about done with it all.  And...as careful as I am, I am having to take my dad to a zillion medical appointments as one thing after another keeps cropping up with him.  It is a matter of time for us.  And...my boys still swim and will start coaching winter swim for our summer team this month.  

One of our in-person classes ended up with most of the kids having Covid over the holidays.  Half don't mask, half do.  DS2 went to class on the 12/13 and I kept both boys home on 12/15 because DS1 was a close contact from his swim meet.  We received notice on 12/21 of a positive case in their class.  Because of snow, their first time back was yesterday and the kids were all talking about being sick with it.  I guess we dodged a bullet that time - same with not getting it from no masking for 4 days at a travel swim meet.  I am sure we will get it sometime pretty soon though.

[AmandaVT]

Almost every school in Vermont is closed today - it's a cold/covid closure. The AOE started the year by saying that schools couldn't go remote and count the days as school days. So now the whole state is shut down and kids aren't getting anything. The end of last week and yesterday were no better - just because kids are physically in school doesn't mean they're getting meaningful education - especially when 25% of staff are out sick and 40% of kids. Everything is just in a holding pattern for now.

[TravelingChris]

12 hours ago, Matryoshka said:

It's weird, my dad (almost 86, vaxxed and boosted) was just in the hospital 5 days with bilateral PE (plus a clot in a leg).  He's now home on blood thinners. He had no 'cold' symptoms and I'm assuming they test everyone coming in for Covid regardless... no? I'm having my mom double-check.

And anyone know how long post-Covid clotting can show up? Apparently he's had no sense of smell since they both got a 'really bad cold' after attending a funeral in March 2020 - the week before lockdowns, when it was already really bad here in the northeast and no one knew. He tested negative for antibodies 6 months later,  but they fade, right?  I've been wondering. There's no smoking gun as to why he got this...

Get tested for Factor V Leiden;  That is the most common cause of DVT and PEs. And it affects 1/9 people with European ancestry.

[heartlikealion]

1 hour ago, mlktwins said:

Did they every really prevent transmission?  I never trusted that they did.  

We are all vaccinated and boostered in my house, but I'm about done with it all.  And...as careful as I am, I am having to take my dad to a zillion medical appointments as one thing after another keeps cropping up with him.  It is a matter of time for us.  And...my boys still swim and will start coaching winter swim for our summer team this month.  

One of our in-person classes ended up with most of the kids having Covid over the holidays.  Half don't mask, half do.  DS2 went to class on the 12/13 and I kept both boys home on 12/15 because DS1 was a close contact from his swim meet.  We received notice on 12/21 of a positive case in their class.  Because of snow, their first time back was yesterday and the kids were all talking about being sick with it.  I guess we dodged a bullet that time - same with not getting it from no masking for 4 days at a travel swim meet.  I am sure we will get it sometime pretty soon though.

I just had this conversation with a friend. My impression was it was always to help prevent spread but without guarantee… which is why some people thought they could stop masking and others decided to continue masking. 

also if they weren’t supposed to slow down transmission we wouldn’t use the term break through cases IMO. 

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/effectiveness/why-measure-effectiveness/breakthrough-cases.html#:~:text=COVID-19 vaccines are,get COVID-19

[TravelingChris]

So many of us have just decided to live our lives.  Dh and I both have had 3 shots.  We didn't get COVID in late Aug-mid Sept 2020 when we went on a long anniversary trip.  We haven't gotten it ever-even though we have been exposed at least twice without masks (in our own home) to two of our children who got it (two separate children, in different years).  

I went to my doctor's appt today and told dh that there were a lot less people on the road than normal.  My appt was at 10 and then also coming back-still a lot less people.  He thought it was hangovers from the game last night but I thought that so many people are being told to quarantine for five days.  We did that last week- no COVID for either of us,  

Talking to my doctor = he traveled during the holidays- going through 5 airports.  No COVID for either him or his wife.  

And with the new findings that COVID tests sometimes are positive because of colds, who knows who has what.  I talked to the receptionist on my way out, asking her have they been having people call who have COVID.  She said some but not that many.  They refer to a place that does four in one testing- 2 different flu strains, COVID, and RSV.  Now I have no idea how long RSV immunity lasts-  I think that dh, dd1, dsil1, and maybe a few of the other members of my family had that in September.  Cause non had COVID and they all had coughs that lasted weeks.  I don't know when they changed testing places or protocols at my doctor's but I had a COVID test in mid August and was negative and no other test was done---but that may have been because both my doctor and I thought I had swallowed blood and coughed that out and not that I had COVID.  

[ktgrok]

2 hours ago, cintinative said:

remind me--was this early December? 

 

I am trying to figure out if we know if the time to presentation of symptoms is shortening with Omicron being more dominant.  

Anecdotal report: our assistant pastor's family is all sick.  Two adults, three children. Only one tested positive. All of them symptomatic.  

It was October. 

I think some people who might have fought it off with limited exposure eventually succomb after multiple days of exposure. 

2 hours ago, whitestavern said:

This should really put an end to the vaccine mandate debate. 

Except for the helping keep our ICUs from being overrun...there is that. 

[heartlikealion]

I don’t think the vaccine should be mandated (though I am vaccinated). I do think not overwhelming the hospitals/lowering your chance of a severe case is a good reason to get one. 

I’m curious if buildings that enforce things like masking if you’re unvaccinated is mandatory will change their policy to include the vaccinated. This was the policy when I went to the court house months ago. 

[KSera]

2 hours ago, mommyoffive said:

CDC Director: Covid vaccines can't prevent transmission anymore (msn.com)

It's clear they can't prevent it with omicron, but I saw this piece in the NYT this morning with graphs still showing a surprising gap between cases in the vaccinated and unvaccinated. Of course, some of that could also be because vaccinated people tend to be more likely to mask and be careful in other way as well, but I don't think that alone could account for this big a difference, especially in these places that have mask mandates for all anyway:

2 hours ago, mlktwins said:

Did they every really prevent transmission?  I never trusted that they did. 

They really did. They prevented infection completely 94-95% of the time. That changed with delta, though they still drastically reduced transmission. Now it's changed even more with omicron.

41 minutes ago, TravelingChris said:

And with the new findings that COVID tests sometimes are positive because of colds, who knows who has what.

Where did you see that? I can't see how that would be possible given the way the tests work. There was talk early on that it was a possibility with antibody tests, but that's a totally different kind of test and isn't used for diagnosing a current case of covid.

8 minutes ago, heartlikealion said:

I’m curious if buildings that enforce things like masking if you’re unvaccinated is mandatory will change their policy to include the vaccinated. This was the policy when I went to the court house months ago. 

If it was months ago, I would expect/hope that has been changed by now. If it was a federal court, they switched back to masks mandated for all regardless of vaccination status at the end of July. I don't currently know of anywhere that has different masking rules for vaccinated and unvaccinated anymore, though I don't doubt there could be places that haven't caught up with the changing virus.

[busymama7]

3 minutes ago, KSera said:

They really did. They prevented infection completely 94-95% of the time. That changed with delta, though they still drastically reduced transmission. Now it's changed even more with omicron.

Didn't the original trials only measure symptomatic infection? So the 94-95% only accounted for symptomatic cases.  They did not measure (to my knowledge) any possibility of catching it asymptomatically which could possibly lead to still spreading it even if only for a brief time. 

[kokotg]

13 minutes ago, KSera said:

 

If it was months ago, I would expect/hope that has been changed by now. If it was a federal court, they switched back to masks mandated for all regardless of vaccination status at the end of July. I don't currently know of anywhere that has different masking rules for vaccinated and unvaccinated anymore, though I don't doubt there could be places that haven't caught up with the changing virus.

I still see signs all over the place near me that say something like, "in keeping with the new CDC guidelines, vaccinated people don't need to wear masks" ...which is exactly why I thought it was a terrible idea as soon as they made that announcement in the spring. Since the CDC is in the same area I am, they really should have been able to foresee it, too. 

[Roadrunner]

1 hour ago, TravelingChris said:

So many of us have just decided to live our lives.  Dh and I both have had 3 shots.  We didn't get COVID in late Aug-mid Sept 2020 when we went on a long anniversary trip.  We haven't gotten it ever-even though we have been exposed at least twice without masks (in our own home) to two of our children who got it (two separate children, in different years).  

I went to my doctor's appt today and told dh that there were a lot less people on the road than normal.  My appt was at 10 and then also coming back-still a lot less people.  He thought it was hangovers from the game last night but I thought that so many people are being told to quarantine for five days.  We did that last week- no COVID for either of us,  

Talking to my doctor = he traveled during the holidays- going through 5 airports.  No COVID for either him or his wife.  

And with the new findings that COVID tests sometimes are positive because of colds, who knows who has what.  I talked to the receptionist on my way out, asking her have they been having people call who have COVID.  She said some but not that many.  They refer to a place that does four in one testing- 2 different flu strains, COVID, and RSV.  Now I have no idea how long RSV immunity lasts-  I think that dh, dd1, dsil1, and maybe a few of the other members of my family had that in September.  Cause non had COVID and they all had coughs that lasted weeks.  I don't know when they changed testing places or protocols at my doctor's but I had a COVID test in mid August and was negative and no other test was done---but that may have been because both my doctor and I thought I had swallowed blood and coughed that out and not that I had COVID.  

Here the vaccination rates are very high, which basically means most people catching Covid experience cold like illness. If you never tested, you would never know it’s Covid. 
Now in areas where vaccination rates are lower, I am sure hospitals are overwhelmed, but locally, despite massive case numbers, we aren’t experiencing anything of the sort. I am going to say (and I know lots of people will throw things at me) that vaccines have turned Covid into a cold. What we still need to do is protect immunocompromised and elderly, and hopefully we can prioritize for them whatever treatment is possible … but for the majority, and especially for kids, this is now looking/feeling just like cold.  We have to learn how to live with this and stop cancelling life for kids. All my children’s activities have been cancelled this month despite all of them requiring vaccinations and masking. 

[KSera]

12 minutes ago, busymama7 said:

Didn't the original trials only measure symptomatic infection? So the 94-95% only accounted for symptomatic cases.  They did not measure (to my knowledge) any possibility of catching it asymptomatically which could possibly lead to still spreading it even if only for a brief time. 

You're right the original trials weren't made to measure ability to transmit, so initially they didn't know the answer to that, but there were studies a couple months after they started vaccinating showing that it prevented transmission in most cases. Then delta came along and breakthroughs increased.

[KSera]

13 minutes ago, kokotg said:

I still see signs all over the place near me that say something like, "in keeping with the new CDC guidelines, vaccinated people don't need to wear masks" ...which is exactly why I thought it was a terrible idea as soon as they made that announcement in the spring. Since the CDC is in the same area I am, they really should have been able to foresee it, too. 

I thought it was a terrible move as well. That's too bad that is still the messaging in your area.

5 minutes ago, Roadrunner said:

Here the vaccination rates are very high, which basically means most people catching Covid experience cold like illness. If you never tested, you would never know it’s Covid. 
Now in areas where vaccination rates are lower, I am sure hospitals are overwhelmed, but locally, despite massive case numbers, we aren’t experiencing anything of the sort. I am going to say (and I know lots of people will throw things at me) that vaccines have turned Covid into a cold. What we still need to do is protect immunocompromised and elderly, and hopefully we can prioritize for them whatever treatment is possible … but for the majority, and especially for kids, this is now looking/feeling just like cold.  We have to learn how to live with this and stop cancelling life for kids. All my children’s activities have been cancelled this month despite all of them requiring vaccinations and masking. 

That's good for your area, but I'm seeing even areas with high vacciantion rates having severe impacts. We have lots of schools closed this week because there just aren't enough teachers to staff it. So many are out sick. The virus is what is canceling things (and no one is cancelling life--having kids recovering from mental health struggles, that kind of phrasing is really unhelpful for kids to hear).

I expect a high likelihood that some of our family members will eventually catch omicron, particularly the college kids. They're trying hard not to though, mostly because they don't want to be part of that chain that puts immunocompromised and disabled people at risk (there is no way to protect them when everyone else is sick), but also because "mild" covid is still pretty awful for a lot of people and it would be hard to keep up with classes. Some people are getting mild cold symptoms, but some people are having a miserable course. "Mild" just means not needing supplemental oxygen, not that it's like a cold. I think the symptoms for vaccinated people are tending to more frequently be in the range of flu than cold, and we avoid flu at all costs as well.

[Matryoshka]

1 hour ago, TravelingChris said:

Get tested for Factor V Leiden;  That is the most common cause of DVT and PEs. And it affects 1/9 people with European ancestry.

Thanks.  I'll mention that to my mom.  They also said cancer can sometimes cause it; they found a spot on his lung but it didn't light up on the PET scan so they're not sure it's just a random spot he has 'cause he's an old man... 

[kokotg]

34 minutes ago, Roadrunner said:

Here the vaccination rates are very high, which basically means most people catching Covid experience cold like illness. If you never tested, you would never know it’s Covid. 
Now in areas where vaccination rates are lower, I am sure hospitals are overwhelmed, but locally, despite massive case numbers, we aren’t experiencing anything of the sort.

hospitalizations are the highest they've been for the entire pandemic in highly vaccinated places like NY and NJ right now. 

[Roadrunner]

19 minutes ago, KSera said:

I thought it was a terrible move as well. That's too bad that is still the messaging in your area.

That's good for your area, but I'm seeing even areas with high vacciantion rates having severe impacts. We have lots of schools closed this week because there just aren't enough teachers to staff it. So many are out sick. The virus is what is canceling things (and no one is cancelling life--having kids recovering from mental health struggles, that kind of phrasing is really unhelpful for kids to hear).

I expect a high likelihood that some of our family members will eventually catch omicron, particularly the college kids. They're trying hard not to though, mostly because they don't want to be part of that chain that puts immunocompromised and disabled people at risk (there is no way to protect them when everyone else is sick), but also because "mild" covid is still pretty awful for a lot of people and it would be hard to keep up with classes. Some people are getting mild cold symptoms, but some people are having a miserable course. "Mild" just means not needing supplemental oxygen, not that it's like a cold. I think the symptoms for vaccinated people are tending to more frequently be in the range of flu than cold, and we avoid flu at all costs as well.

They are sending anybody who tests positive home, so obviously there is an impact. Even if it isn’t any more severe than cold, you are skipping work/school. 
We now know a ton of people with Covid, and universally the vaccinated ones at most ran a fever maybe a day. Yet they are out of work for at least a week or more. 
 

[Roadrunner]

1 minute ago, kokotg said:

hospitalizations are the highest they've been for the entire pandemic in highly vaccinated places like NY and NJ right now. 

Did you see UCSF data I posted above? I just wonder who is in hospitals and why exactly. I know unvaccinated are hard hit, but again, at least locally there is no justification for cancellations. Our music ensembles are all cancelled. 

[kokotg]

38 minutes ago, Roadrunner said:

Here the vaccination rates are very high, which basically means most people catching Covid experience cold like illness. If you never tested, you would never know it’s Covid. 
Now in areas where vaccination rates are lower, I am sure hospitals are overwhelmed, but locally, despite massive case numbers, we aren’t experiencing anything of the sort. I am going to say (and I know lots of people will throw things at me) that vaccines have turned Covid into a cold. What we still need to do is protect immunocompromised and elderly, and hopefully we can prioritize for them whatever treatment is possible … but for the majority, and especially for kids, this is now looking/feeling just like cold.  We have to learn how to live with this and stop cancelling life for kids. All my children’s activities have been cancelled this month despite all of them requiring vaccinations and masking. 

I've never understood the argument that we should protect the immunocompromised and elderly but somehow everyone else should be unaffected. The immunocompromised and the elderly don't live in bubbles somewhere; they're very often teachers and healthcare workers and grocery store workers, etc. To be clear, I don't think there any good choices right now. My kids have stayed home from activities the past week mostly because we need to get their brother off to his study abroad program, so he has to test negative, but they'll likely go back to things like indoor orchestra after that, because I don't feel like I can ask them to sit it out any more than they already have. But I'm very much aware that people like us "getting on with our lives" makes life that much more difficult for high risk people. Do I still see my parents and stepparents? Is it okay to visit my grandmother at her assisted living place? I don't know. I'm hopeful that this wave will pass quickly and it won't be an issue for long this time. But we're not at a sustainable place right now. Huge numbers of people are still dying; hospitals are overcrowded and health care workers are overwhelmed. This doesn't work for a new normal. 

[Roadrunner]

2 minutes ago, kokotg said:

I've never understood the argument that we should protect the immunocompromised and elderly but somehow everyone else should be unaffected. The immunocompromised and the elderly don't live in bubbles somewhere; they're very often teachers and healthcare workers and grocery store workers, etc. To be clear, I don't think there any good choices right now. My kids have stayed home from activities the past week mostly because we need to get their brother off to his study abroad program, so he has to test negative, but they'll likely go back to things like indoor orchestra after that, because I don't feel like I can ask them to sit it out any more than they already have. But I'm very much aware that people like us "getting on with our lives" makes life that much more difficult for high risk people. Do I still see my parents and stepparents? Is it okay to visit my grandmother at her assisted living place? I don't know. I'm hopeful that this wave will pass quickly and it won't be an issue for long this time. But we're not at a sustainable place right now. Huge numbers of people are still dying; hospitals are overcrowded and health care workers are overwhelmed. This doesn't work for a new normal. 

We protect them by allowing them or their relatives priority for online work and medicine (like Covid pills currently in high demand). If you have a kid with a kidney transplant at home and you are a teacher, the system needs to be flexible to let you work form home. But I think this Covid is unstoppable. Obviously if vaccines can’t stop it, what can? So I think at this point a kid with no fever, vaccinated but with a runny nose should be allowed to not miss school for 10 days as long as he can be masked. 
I am no longer willing to let the younger generation pay the price. 

[Pawz4me]

I wish the vaccines were working better to prevent infection and spread, but . . I guess maybe I wasn't expecting a lot to begin with, so all in all they're working every bit as well as I hoped they would. But I'm one of those people who has gotten a flu shot for many years knowing full well it might not keep me from getting the flu (or spreading it), but that it should prevent me from becoming seriously ill from it. That was my baseline hope for the Covid vaccines, and it seems to (mostly) be where we're at.

And I think this is a good article -- Why More Americans are Saying They're Vaxxed and Done (The Atlantic). It pretty much explains the divides were dealing with right now.

Quote

A virus that seems both pervasive and mild offers an opening to people who are, let’s call them, “vaxxed and done.” The attitude of the VADs is this:

For more than a year, I did everything that public-health authorities told me to do. I wore masks. I canceled vacations. I made sacrifices. I got vaccinated. I got boosted. I’m happy to get boosted again. But this virus doesn’t stop. Year over year, the infections don’t decrease. Instead, virulence for people like me is decreasing, either because the virus is changing, or because of growing population immunity, or both. Americans should stop pointlessly guilting themselves about all these cases. In the past week, daily confirmed COVID cases per capita were higher than the U.S. in Ireland, Greece, Iceland, Denmark, France, the U.K., Spain, Portugal, Italy, Switzerland, and even Australia, one of the most COVID-cautious countries in the world. As the coronavirus continues its unstoppable march toward endemicity, our attitude toward the virus should follow a similar path toward stoicism. COVID is becoming something like the seasonal flu for most people who keep up with their shots, so I’m prepared to treat this like I’ve treated the flu: by basically not worrying about it and living my life normally.

(snip)

But there is an opposing group. Let’s call them the “vaxxed and cautious.” Here’s my best summary of their perspective:

Why on earth would we suddenly relax measures now, during the largest statistical wave of COVID ever recorded in the U.S.? We shouldn’t treat Omicron like any old seasonal flu, because it’s not like any old seasonal flu. It’s likely deadlier for those without immunity and almost certainly several times more transmissible for everybody else. We have no idea what the effects of Omicron on long COVID will be, but evidence of lingering symptoms should make us wary of just letting tens of millions of people get needlessly infected. Moreover, the health-care system is already worn down and at risk of being overloaded. Record-high caseloads are societally debilitating, creating long chains of infections that are bound to reach some immunocompromised people and the elderly, thus causing needless death. For all these reasons, we should take individual measures to throttle the spread of this virus.

If you feel a bit torn between these ideologies, I understand. I’m a bit torn myself.

(And FWIW, DH and I are both immunocompromised.)