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More Michigan School shooting updates, one good, one bad. I will lead with the good.

Faith-manor

By Faith-manor,
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Faith-manor

Faith-manor

Posted
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And really, can we all just agree that it is depressing to say "good" update about something so freaking awful?

At any rate, the other seven victims are improving! I can only imagine how relieved their families are.

The bad. Whatever went down at the meeting between the school principal, the parents, and the shooter that morning, the principal saw no need for "discipline". Hmmm...okay. Hmmmm maybe " discipline" is not the right word. But intervention? Can we use that word? This kid was on social media threatening to shoot up the school, and you were concerned enough to call the parents in and have a meeting, and you didn't say, "Please take your son home and call your doctor for a referral to a mental health professional. We think it is in his best interests as well as ours that he not be in school for now." His backpack was not searched nor his locker. Law enforcement was not called to search him. But making threats to kill people on school grounds IS a crime. It is a crime in progress. Most of them are going to be kids blowing off steam and running their immature mouths off. However, it is still a crime, and the least we can do as a society is jump on that with both feet, and make these kids go to counseling, do some community service, and force the parents to take action or lose the kid for a while. We can't just keep turning our backs on this!

The gun was unsecured according to the sheriff. It was described as easily accessible. I think life in prison without the possibility of parole for the dad who was the legal owner, and 25 years foe the mom. I think the trial takes place at night on Primetime so all the other stupid, irresponsible, gun obsessed parents get the message to lock those things up with trigger locks, and combination gun safes, and ammo elsewhere also under combination OR go to jail, do not pass go, do nor collect $200.

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Fritz

Fritz

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Seems to me the principal should be charged as well from what the prosecutor is saying about the case. The note that was on the shooter's desk was enough to justify searching his backpack. The police should have been called as well and he should not have been allowed to just return to class.

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Corraleno

Corraleno

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A teacher reported Ethan to the office on Monday due to a "disturbing search history" and the office called his parents. In response, his mother texted him: “LOL I’m not mad at you, next time just don’t get caught.” 

When his mother heard a report of the shooting she instantly knew it was him and texted "Don’t do it, Ethan.” 

After his father heard about the shooting, he called to report the missing gun, which had been kept in an unlocked drawer. 

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/crime/michigan-school-shooting-ethan-crumbley-latest-b1968386.html

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Harriet Vane

Harriet Vane

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Re the principal's defense about "discipline"--

We definitely have a culture of minimizing and denial about dysfunction and abuse and trauma. As a foster parent, I have seen in multiple social work agencies and schools that those in a position to assess risk of harm come to the task with skepticism and simply euphemize and verbally gloss over extremes that are emphatically NOT OK. It is a cultural dynamic, meaning it is not just one incompetent person here or there. It is an expectation across the board, and it hurts children.

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Corraleno

Corraleno

Posted
Posted (edited)
5 minutes ago, Pawz4me said:

Does that school not have a resource officer? If they do . . . certainly he or she was (or should have been involved) in this. I'm thinking they must not have one, because surely an officer would have searched his backpack and locker.

I've seen reports that they not only had a school resource officer, they also two private security guards on site.

ETA: the resource officer, along with a backup, was the one that arrested Ethan: 

"Like many schools across the country, Oxford High School has a police officer assigned to patrol its halls and campus. On Tuesday, according to a law enforcement official, that deputy and a responding deputy disarmed and arrested a 15-year-old student who is accused of killing three fellow students and wounding eight others, including a teacher."

https://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/2021/11/30/oxford-high-shooting-police-school-liaison-officer/8813723002/

 

Edited by Corraleno
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lauraw4321

lauraw4321

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29 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

A teacher reported Ethan to the office on Monday due to a "disturbing search history" and the office called his parents. In response, his mother texted him: “LOL I’m not mad at you, next time just don’t get caught.” 

When his mother heard a report of the shooting she instantly knew it was him and texted "Don’t do it, Ethan.” 

After his father heard about the shooting, he called to report the missing gun, which had been kept in an unlocked drawer. 

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/crime/michigan-school-shooting-ethan-crumbley-latest-b1968386.html

This is so horrifying and sickening and there aren't enough words.

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Faith-manor

Faith-manor

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32 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

A teacher reported Ethan to the office on Monday due to a "disturbing search history" and the office called his parents. In response, his mother texted him: “LOL I’m not mad at you, next time just don’t get caught.” 

When his mother heard a report of the shooting she instantly knew it was him and texted "Don’t do it, Ethan.” 

After his father heard about the shooting, he called to report the missing gun, which had been kept in an unlocked drawer. 

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/crime/michigan-school-shooting-ethan-crumbley-latest-b1968386.html

The mother needs to go away for life! How depraved is she??? So both parents, in supermax, no visitors for life. This is how I vote. This probably why I should never serve on criminal juries.

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Corraleno

Corraleno

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This is a good summary of the timeline:

Here's a timeline of how the events unfolded, according to the prosecutor: 

  • Nov. 26: Ethan Crumbley's father, James Crumbley, purchased a gun with his son present. 
     
  • On or about Nov. 26: Ethan Crumbley posted photos of a semi-automatic gun on social media with a caption: “Just got my new beauty today. SIG SAUER 9mm.”
     
  • On or about Nov. 27: Jennifer Crumbley, Ethan Crumbley's mother, made a social media post that read, “mom and son day testing out his new Christmas present.”
     
  • Nov. 29: A teacher at Oxford High School observed Ethan searching for ammunition on his phone and reported that information to school officials. His parents did not reply when the school attempted to contact them. Later, Jennifer Crumbley exchanged texts with Ethan stating, “LOL I’m not mad at you. You have to learn not to get caught.”
     
  • Nov. 30: On the morning of the shooting, Ethan’s teacher came across a note that “alarmed her to the point that she took a picture of it on her cell phone.” The note contained “a drawing of a semiautomatic handgun pointing at the words ‘the thoughts won’t stop. help me.’" Also included in the note was a drawing of a bullet with “blood everywhere” written above it. Between the gun and the bullet is a drawing of a person who appears to have been shot twice and bleeding with a laughing emoji under it. The note also has “my life is useless” and “the world is dead” scrawled on it. 
     
  • The parents were “immediately summoned to the school." A school counselor removed Ethan from class with his backpack and obtained the note, but the drawings of the gun, bloody figure and writings were all “altered.” At the meeting with school officials, his parents were shown the drawing and were told they had to submit their son to counseling within 48 hours. His parents did not ask the whereabouts of the gun and did not suggest to inspect his backpack for the gun which he had with him, according to McDonald. His parents “resisted” the idea of taking Ethan out of school and left without him.
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KSera

KSera

Posted
Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, mmasc said:

The more details that come out, the more I think that many balls were dropped in this horrifying situation. So.many.fails on so.many.levels. 😔

With as horrible as it is to contemplate without even knowing anyone involved, it’s unbearable to think how these details must be for the parents who lost children. This was preventable and so many balls were dropped. It must be incredibly hard to take. 
 

I’m sickened by his parents. Michigan’s laws might make it difficult, but I hope they throw the book at them and then change the laws so that in the future this is not a hard call at all. It shouldn’t be. 

Edited by KSera
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Faith-manor

Faith-manor

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8 minutes ago, KSera said:

With as horrible as it is to contemplate without even knowing anyone involved, it’s unbearable to think how these details must be for the parents who post children. This was preventable and so many balls were dropped. It must be incredibly hard to take. 
 

I’m sickened by his parents. Michigan’s laws might make it difficult, but I hope they throw the book at them and then change the laws so that in the future this is not a hard call at all. It shouldn’t be. 

There have been many calls for action. Our "my gun is an extension of my favorite reported drive toy" NRA worshipping legislature is not a fan of holding anyone, particularly another white man, accountable for much of anything. So.....don't hold your breath. This is just another wring hands,  offer prayers and walk away event for them.

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Idalou

Idalou

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26 minutes ago, Faith-manor said:

There have been many calls for action. Our "my gun is an extension of my favorite reported drive toy" NRA worshipping legislature is not a fan of holding anyone, particularly another white man, accountable for much of anything. So.....don't hold your breath. This is just another wring hands,  offer prayers and walk away event for them.

Non profit, non partisan news source about guns legislation there

https://www.bridgemi.com/michigan-government/michigan-gridlock-has-blocked-action-50-gun-reform-bills-year

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Pam in CT

Pam in CT

Posted
Posted (edited)

re limited options for authorities to pursue

1 hour ago, KSera said:

With as horrible as it is to contemplate without even knowing anyone involved, it’s unbearable to think how these details must be for the parents who post children. This was preventable and so many balls were dropped. It must be incredibly hard to take. 
 

I’m sickened by his parents. Michigan’s laws might make it difficult, but I hope they throw the book at them and then change the laws so that in the future this is not a hard call at all. It shouldn’t be. 

NPR has a good writeup with an expanded timeframe of what happened, as well as range of other issues, including the limited options given that Michigan evidently does not have either safe storage laws, or liability for gunowner negligence.

Quote

The involuntary manslaughter charges for the suspect's parents are highly unusual for a school shooting. But Michigan's criminal code does not give prosecutors more straightforward options: The state is not among those with laws that specifically target children's access to guns nor does it have a negligent gun storage statute, according to the Giffords Law Center, a research group that advocates for gun control laws.

The Oakland County prosecutor advocated for strengthening the state's gun laws at her press conferences this week, calling them "woefully inadequate."

In addition to the rare step of charging the shooter's parents, prosecutors' decision to charge the younger Crumbley with terrorism is unusual in Michigan. The criminal complaint accuses Crumbley of "intending to intimidate or coerce" the high school community.

"What about all the children who ran, screaming, hiding under desks? What about all the children at home right now, who can't eat and can't sleep and can't imagine a world where they could ever step foot back in that school? Those are victims, too, and so are their families and so is the community," McDonald said at a press conference Wednesday. "The charge of terrorism reflects that."

Ethan Crumbley currently faces 24 felony counts, including four counts of first-degree murder and seven counts of assault with intent to murder, in addition to the terrorism charge. He has pleaded not guilty to all. He will be tried as an adult and faces life in prison if convicted.

Here is the indictment for Ethan.  Haven't found the parents' yet (it's possible it may not be released until they are found & arraigned? I don't know.)

 

 

 

Edited by Pam in CT
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Kassia

Kassia

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Posted
3 minutes ago, Terabith said:

Actually, with this new information, I kinda feel sorry for Ethan.  Doesn't in any way excuse his actions, but he was clearly disturbed and clearly failed by everyone.  

I agree.  This is why I'm usually uncomfortable with juveniles being tried as an adult.  It's a tough situation and decision and tragic for everyone.

 

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Sneezyone

Sneezyone

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Posted (edited)
22 minutes ago, Pam in CT said:

re limited options for authorities to pursue

NPR has a good writeup with an expanded timeframe of what happened, as well as range of other issues, including the limited options given that Michigan evidently does not have either safe storage laws, or liability for gunowner negligence.

Here is the indictment for Ethan.  Haven't found the parents' yet (it's possible it may not be released until they are found & arraigned? I don't know.)

 

 

 

The charges are entirely justified. I’m THRILLED to see a prosecutor aggressively using the law against mass murderers and negligent gun owners this way. Let the jury decide.

Edited by Sneezyone
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Terabith

Terabith

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Just now, Kassia said:

I agree.  This is why I'm usually uncomfortable with juveniles being tried as an adult.  It's a tough situation and decision and tragic for everyone.

 

Yes, I can't think of a single instance in which I was in favor of trying a juvenile as an adult.  And I don't think 18 is old enough to be tried as an adult.  I'd like to see 25, or at least 21.  

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Pam in CT

Pam in CT

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re decision to charge the parents

22 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

The charges are entirely justified. I’m THRILLED to see a prosecutor aggressively using the law against mass murderers and negligent gun owners this way. Let the jury decide.

Oh, I'm very glad the parents are being charged as well.

I still believe that safe storage laws and enhancements on them for when minors and/or folks with known mental illness are in the household are necessary to reduce these kinds of tragedies.  And enough states have passed legislation in response to NRA pressure that exempts gun owners from liability, that too can be far harder to prosecute than it should be in a case as straightforward as this one looks to be.

I'm glad the parents are being charged, but concerned that manslaughter will be too high a prosecutorial lift.  Whereas criminal negligence, I think they would get if Michigan law allowed them to charge (as it would in CT, where we have both a safe storage law and enhancements if minors or folks with a known history of mental illness are in the household).

 

I'm very glad they're charging Ethan with a terrorism enhancement.  That's both appropriate and necessary as signalling what mass shooting are.  They are much, much more than Dead Person A +  Dead Person B + Dead Person C + Dead Person D = 4 Murders.

Always ambivalent about trying kids as adults.  Kid sure does not appear to have been parented adequately.

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Carrie12345

Carrie12345

Posted
Posted

I don’t understand the concept of average people fleeing.

Savvy career criminals? Sure.
Super wealthy and connected eccentrics? Yeah.
But what’s your average person (couple) going to do to stay hidden forever?

I’ve pondered some devious plans before… you know, for fun. But this is one I just can’t see pulling off.

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Sneezyone

Sneezyone

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33 minutes ago, Pam in CT said:

re decision to charge the parents

Oh, I'm very glad the parents are being charged as well.

I still believe that safe storage laws and enhancements on them for when minors and/or folks with known mental illness are in the household are necessary to reduce these kinds of tragedies.  And enough states have passed legislation in response to NRA pressure that exempts gun owners from liability, that too can be far harder to prosecute than it should be in a case as straightforward as this one looks to be.

I'm glad the parents are being charged, but concerned that manslaughter will be too high a prosecutorial lift.  Whereas criminal negligence, I think they would get if Michigan law allowed them to charge (as it would in CT, where we have both a safe storage law and enhancements if minors or folks with a known history of mental illness are in the household).

 

I'm very glad they're charging Ethan with a terrorism enhancement.  That's both appropriate and necessary as signalling what mass shooting are.  They are much, much more than Dead Person A +  Dead Person B + Dead Person C + Dead Person D = 4 Murders.

Always ambivalent about trying kids as adults.  Kid sure does not appear to have been parented adequately.

Manslaughter should cover lesser includeds tho. In some states (I haven’t read Michigan’s statutes), manslaughter covers grossly negligent homicide. Charging the most serious offense gives the jury a way to ‘compromise’/assign liability on a lesser included charge.

Edited by Sneezyone
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Corraleno

Corraleno

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13 minutes ago, mmasc said:

Does anyone (much more knowledgeable than me on this subject) know what kind of sentence the parents’ charges would likely bring if convicted?

https://www.findlaw.com/state/michigan-law/michigan-involuntary-manslaughter-law.html

Under MI Penal Code 750.321, the maximum punishment for involuntary manslaughter, aka criminally negligent homicide, is 15 yrs in prison, a fine of $7500., and restitution to the victim's family.

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Pam in CT

Pam in CT

Posted
Posted

re manslaughter => lesser charges

1 hour ago, Sneezyone said:

Manslaughter should cover lesser includeds tho. In some states (I haven’t read Michigan’s statutes), manslaughter covers grossly negligent homicide. Charging the most serious offense gives the jury a way to ‘compromise’/assign liability on a lesser included charge.

I haven't found the indictment yet, and as you know IANAL. The NPR article I linked upthread seemed (?) to suggest that prosecutors didn't really have a lesser charge to charge since MI evidently doesn't have a criminal negligence category, nor even, apparently (?) a civil liability category. 

CT is trying to expand liability for gun owners whose gun is taken and used by someone else to commit a crime.  You're a responsible person who wants a gun... OK. Act responsibly.  Keep it on your person, or lock it up.  Keep it out of the hands of kids and folks with known mental health issues.

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Corraleno

Corraleno

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Supposedly LE had the parents under surveillance at the motel where they were staying Thursday night, but some kind of mix up between agencies allowed the parents to slip out of the hotel overnight without being seen. They withdrew $4000 from an ATM in Rochester Hills, around 15 miles north of Oxford, Friday morning and turned off their cell phones, which LE had been using to track them.

Oh, and their lawyer, who had released a statement claiming they were not on the run and planned to turn themselves in, admitted she hadn't actually talked to them, doesn't know where they are, and has not been able to reach them. Sheriff says the couple had not made any arrangement to surrender and are currently considered fugitives.

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WildflowerMom

WildflowerMom

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4 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

Supposedly LE had the parents under surveillance at the motel where they were staying Thursday night, but some kind of mix up between agencies allowed the parents to slip out of the hotel overnight without being seen. They withdrew $4000 from an ATM in Rochester Hills, around 15 miles north of Oxford, Friday morning and turned off their cell phones, which LE had been using to track them.

Oh, and their lawyer, who had released a statement claiming they were not on the run and planned to turn themselves in, admitted she hadn't actually talked to them, doesn't know where they are, and has not been able to reach them. Sheriff says the couple had not made any arrangement to surrender and are currently considered fugitives.

Dang.   What total pieces of sh**. 

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melmichigan

melmichigan

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Posted

 

7 minutes ago, KSera said:

Where’s the kid? He’s in custody somewhere and his parents have left? Like someone else said, this wouldn’t be believable in a work of fiction. 

He is in custody, the parents are still "at large".

Not only were our schools closed again today, but three kids have now been charged; anywhere from a 15 year old charged with a misdemeanor and one year, to a 13 year old charged with a twenty-year felony for threats against area schools.

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Corraleno

Corraleno

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There is now a $10K reward posted by US Marshalls for information leading to the arrest of the parents.

Also, as an aside, the parents' lawyers, Shannon Smith and Mariell Lehman, specialize in the defense of accused rapists and child molesters; their "Results" page brags about getting rapists and pedophiles off with just probation. Shannon Smith was less successful when she represented Larry Nasser, despite basically calling many of the victims liars in a public interview, claiming he couldn't possibly have molested that many girls.

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Frances

Frances

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38 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

There is now a $10K reward posted by US Marshalls for information leading to the arrest of the parents.

Also, as an aside, the parents' lawyers, Shannon Smith and Mariell Lehman, specialize in the defense of accused rapists and child molesters; their "Results" page brags about getting rapists and pedophiles off with just probation. Shannon Smith was less successful when she represented Larry Nasser, despite basically calling many of the victims liars in a public interview, claiming he couldn't possibly have molested that many girls.

Do you think the parents are actually paying those lawyers? Do they have that kind of money? Or are the lawyers doing it for publicity? Or is someone else (NRA?) funding the defense?

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KSera

KSera

Posted
Posted (edited)
40 minutes ago, Frances said:

Do you think the parents are actually paying those lawyers? Do they have that kind of money? Or are the lawyers doing it for publicity? Or is someone else (NRA?) funding the defense?

I was wondering that as well. 
 

It sounds like their vehicle was found and there are some reports that the parents are on foot, but I don’t know how accurate that is. Hopefully they are apprehended very soon without incident. I can’t get over how stupid for them to have run like this. 
 

eta: hearing they are in custody now. 

Edited by KSera
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Corraleno

Corraleno

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More info here: https://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/detroit/2021/12/04/james-jennifer-crumbley-oxford-school-shooting-suspect/8865574002/

The owner of the building where they parked noticed the car around 11:50 PM and knew it didn't belong there. Went to investigate, saw the car and plate matched the description released by police, and called 911. He said he saw a woman smoking a cigarette near the car, who walked away when he went over to inspect the car. They were arrested just before 2:00 AM.

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Sneezyone

Sneezyone

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8 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

More info here: https://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/detroit/2021/12/04/james-jennifer-crumbley-oxford-school-shooting-suspect/8865574002/

The owner of the building where they parked noticed the car around 11:50 PM and knew it didn't belong there. Went to investigate, saw the car and plate matched the description released by police, and called 911. He said he saw a woman smoking a cigarette near the car, who walked away when he went over to inspect the car. They were arrested just before 2:00 AM.

Glad they're in custody and relieved they will be denied bond. It's insane to me that people continue to underestimate the threat posed by families like this.

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easypeasy

easypeasy

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There are no words for how gutted I feel for all the families affected by this. Those poor students. Their parents... their siblings... the other students...the teachers... I just cannot imagine.

However... man, oh man, I feel bad for the shooter. Some kids just never have a real chance, kwim? This kid was born to those parents. Parents who just RAN to save their own hides (or tried to) while leaving him behind. From what I've read, he hadn't really had disciplinary actions before - but he's obviously a kid who has struggled with fitting in, etc. Just gathering from the picture he drew - he was literally SCREAMING for help - knowing he was having these thoughts but unable to contain them.

And NONE of the grownups in the Room with the Power did the right things!! The TEACHERs did the right thing (they often do) by reporting it, but then it just fell flat. No one thought to check his bags? Are we so afraid of checking a kid's backpack now? No one thought a kid ACTIVELY drawing violent images IN CLASS needed to be sent home for a bit and have someone do a personal consultation?

Just. Wow. So many failures on so many levels. It's just beyond sad.

Edited by easypeasy
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Corraleno

Corraleno

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22 minutes ago, easypeasy said:

Have we gotten any news as to whether or not he was targeting one or more of those students purposefully? Or does it seem he just came out of the bathroom shooting at anyone in his line of vision?

I think the police have said that based on the surveillance video it seems he just started shooting at anyone who happened to be in the hallway when he came out of the bathroom, and that there is no evidence at this point that he was specifically targeting anyone. I assume if there had been any comments in the cell phone video or the diary that were directed at specific people, the police would have acknowledged that.

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Longtime Lurker

Longtime Lurker

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6 hours ago, easypeasy said:

There are no words for how gutted I feel for all the families affected by this. Those poor students. Their parents... their siblings... the other students...the teachers... I just cannot imagine.

However... man, oh man, I feel bad for the shooter. Some kids just never have a real chance, kwim? This kid was born to those parents. Parents who just RAN to save their own kid (or tried to) while leaving him behind. From what I've read, he hadn't really had disciplinary actions before - but he's obviously a kid who has struggled with fitting in, etc. Just gathering from the picture he drew - he was literally SCREAMING for help - knowing he was having these thoughts but unable to contain them.

And NONE of the grownups in the Room with the Power did the right things!! The TEACHERs did the right thing (they often do) by reporting it, but then it just fell flat. No one thought to check his bags? Are we so afraid of checking a kid's backpack now? No one thought a kid ACTIVELY drawing violent images IN CLASS needed to be sent home for a bit and have someone do a personal consultation?

Just. Wow. So many failures on so many levels. It's just beyond sad.

Yes, I agree. All the adults around him failed him. And our whole society failed him, by allowing such easy access to guns.

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