Thanks

[Insertcreativenamehere]

She is completely out of line and sounds mentally unbalanced and extremely entitled and self-absorbed. I'm sorry that you have to deal with this on top of everything else you've had on your plate. 

Edited November 23, 2021 by Insertcreativenamehere

[TechWife]

I’m sorry you’re facing this. I don’t think I’d be kind at all in your situation, so you’re probably managing better than I would. You’re carrying a lot of burdens right now. Given the bigger picture, this isn’t a good time to address family dynamics or think about how you might have done things differently.It sounds trite, but try not to worry about this too much right now. Your husband is rightly in a place of priority. When things get tense, it’s okay to tell someone else, “I’m very stressed right now & I don’t have the bandwidth to deal with this. It turns out me making a big meal isn’t going to work out. Our family is in crisis. I need help with the kids & since you agreed, I need you to take it from there.”

Since it sounds like being with the cousins is the most important thing, can you not give another thought to the meal? You can offer money to help with catering if you want to. A grocery store pre made Thanksgiving dinner will be just fine.  They can even eat pizza or Mac & cheese out of a box. This isn’t a normal Thanksgiving & the kids really do understand that. You can all have a holiday meal another time. 

If this proves to be too much for her, can other SIL meet you partway to get your kids then take them on to her family gathering? They can play with their other cousins another time, maybe even on Friday. Planning and executing this meal has turned out to be more stressful than you thought it would be. It might be less stressful at this point to have your other SIL take care of them for the day even though it’s geographically out of the way.

Many hugs to you. I hope you can take a deep breath soon. 

[Xahm]

I have dealt with in law jealousy. It isn't as extreme because it lives are less intertwined as yours are, but it's simultaneously both rational and irrational, as I suspect this is at its root. (Though not in its expression through stuffing anger!) 

I wonder if your sil is really struggling emotionally with PPD, concern for your husband as he is her brother, and sorrow at your loss but didn't want to dump emotionally on you, who has much more reason to be struggling than she does (all that being the rational aspect) but then feels it's unfair that she's not getting the support she needs and irrationally resents you and your family for it. People who feel conflicted like that can lash out in weird, hurtful ways. 

I could be way off base and I'm sorry if I add to your stress or distress, but when you mentioned how much dh loves this sister, it made me wonder how she's feeling about him. It's there a way you and she can support each other emotionally during this hard time? Even just talking things through/mourning the holiday celebration you should be getting to have in a better world might help you both. But if I'm off base and you know her to just be a bitter, mean person, ignore this advice completely. 

[marbel]

I am really sorry. I don't know all the backstory here but I gather you have had more than your share of family crisis and are still in crisis now.

At this point, in your shoes, I would just carry on with what you had planned with your SIL, but send along a bowl of stuffing with a label "special request for Pop" or something like that.  It seems that changing things now would add to the drama with your SIL and burden you more (of course I may be way off on that). Your kids will have a good time with their cousins and the food will all be secondary to them (I'd guess, anyway). 

After Thanksgiving I would spend some time considering how you would like Christmas to look for your family and how you can work it out to enjoy it. Because I could see the same thing happening again and you want to be prepared. I hope your FIL speaks to his daughter about her behavior/attitudes and can clear that all up. 

Hugs to you, and prayers for your family. 

[Toocrazy!!]

I am so sorry this is causing you stress on top of your other stressful situation. I hope all the best for your husband. 
 

i too wonder if she is overwhelmed. Some people are just not good at hosting large gatherings. If she has four kids, plus yours, the day will still be loud with lots of work on her part. Not saying you’re not doing the bulk of it! I’m just trying to understand why she would be acting so irrationally. Hormonal maybe? I know I have had bouts of hormonal imbalance that have made me out of control and regretful of my actions after the fact. I don’t do well overwhelmed. I’m an introvert and lots of noise and activity only make it worse. 
 

None of this is your responsibility. Her stuffing issue is totally irrational. She’s grasping for things to connect that to your kids being favored.  I’m just wondering if there’s a reason she’s acting like this? She’s certainly not under any more stress than you. And you are acting kindly and lovingly. 
 

[alisoncooks]

She sounds ridiculous. 
 

(ETA: not the feelings of jealousy. That happens. But expecting an extended family holiday meal to completely revolve around foods her kids eat. That’s ridiculous.)

Edited November 23, 2021 by alisoncooks

[Idalou]

I don't think your FIL was doing anything wrong in suggesting food that your dad would enjoy. I think your SIL has many issues that unfortunately have put your immediate family in.

You need to be able to spend time with your husband on Thursday, without any extra worries. Period. Your FIL needs to be able to also concentrate on him without worrying about your stress from the SIL situation.

Your kids, and her kids, need a day where they can feel loved within the extended family without any added tensions. And I'm not saying they are feeling that negativity, just that the SIL should not allow it to spread past the adults.

In my opinion, then, if I honestly thought the bowl of stuffing would trigger her into being unpleasant to those at the table, I would not send the stuffing while letting all those that need the info that it will be awaiting them at your home, where leftovers are really even better than the actual meal! 

I would then try hard to empty my thoughts of her pettiness and spend the day with your husband. Later on your can devise a plan to either speak to her about her feeling that your family is favored. I have no idea if she'd be receptive. But she will probably do another version of this next month. Will a confrontation now solve anything?  You do not deserve this. It sounds like you have a wonderfully large family that loves each other, and that is alien to many of us. 

Edited November 23, 2021 by Idalou

[theelfqueen]

Your kids have been through hell and she can f*ck right off. 

 

[Idalou]

9 hours ago, Melissa Louise said:

So, the fact she doesn't want to host jumps out at me. PPD + four kids - I can see that.

Is this part of her unreasonableness? Is she being unreasonable over stuffing because she's passive-aggressively avoiding asserting boundaries about what's actually bothering her, which is that she doesn't want to host? 

It all sounds very complicated, because it sounds like there are multiple elephants in the room. 

You're feeling used, she's feeling resentful, you and other sis are allies, casting this sis as the problem,  menfolk are oblivious and waiting on stuffing?

My advice is to either have a conversation about the elephants with the SIL, or just back away, don't fret about it, and just send the stuffing. 

Im sorry, but this comes across as cruel, too. How do you know the other ladies are casting the SIL as the problem? How do you come to the conclusion the men are oblivious and only wanting the food? I think you're adding on things in a flippant way that she didn't say

[WildflowerMom]

I think this is a mental health thing.  The baby is still very young, isn’t it?   I think she’s struggling mentally, maybe with something more than ppd.   In this case, I’d send some stuffing, not say another word about, just make it and include it in the food drop off.   I would limit my exposure to her.  The kids will survive not seeing their cousins all the time.  

[happi duck]

Imo, jealousy happens and you navigate by knowing it happens and not taking it personally, not trying to fix it and also not accidentally competing.

I doubt this is ultimately about stuffing.  Haven't y'all ever had something weird like that be the thing that pushed you over the edge?

It's hard to see your kids not have the same grandparent relationship as the cousins.  It just naturally happens but it is still hard.

It can be hard when something so scary and traumatic is happening to someone else in your life.  It makes everything bad seem much more possible.

You know the circle image of not dumping in and only dumping out?  I think sil dumped in when she should have dumped out.  Her feelings don't have to be seen as wrong or terrible she just expressed them in the wrong direction.

 

[Soror]

The issue with the stuffing seems utterly ridiculous.

BUT

I feel for SIL too. Having PPD is no joke. There are worse things that happen but it doesn't mean it is not bad for her. She handling it in a horrible way but when we are struggling we often think irrationally. Maybe she wanted a meal on her own. Maybe the stuffing is just the last straw and she's ready to have one think just focused on her family. I know there have been things between us and our FOO's that they see as us just being crazy but the little things that add up and sometimes we are not able to deal with one more thing.

[freesia]

30 minutes ago, Soror said:

The issue with the stuffing seems utterly ridiculous.

BUT

I feel for SIL too. Having PPD is no joke. There are worse things that happen but it doesn't mean it is not bad for her. She handling it in a horrible way but when we are struggling we often think irrationally. Maybe she wanted a meal on her own. Maybe the stuffing is just the last straw and she's ready to have one think just focused on her family. I know there have been things between us and our FOO's that they see as us just being crazy but the little things that add up and sometimes we are not able to deal with one more thing.

Well, except that the family has been feeding her family for months and she never makes anything. I think it’s more likely she was looking forward to going somewhere and being fed on T’giving. She is struggling, that’s clear.  I think you are right that it was the straw that broke the camel’s back. Under normal circumstances she would be the one being taken care of.  I think she feels the guilt of wanting it all and knowing B&H needs it more and that B is still cooking and giving and she (Sil) is at the end of her rope and feels guilty and resentful and probably judged and it just kind of exploded out. However, she is being passive aggressive for sure. I wonder if her family systems role has always been the one people take care of. 

[kbutton]

I hope it's okay to quote this part.

13 hours ago, Baseballandhockey said:

So, we were texting back and forth "What about this, what about that?"  And each time I texted a food that her kids don't eat (they are like normal kid picky, not super picky), she'd say "let's not have that, my kids don't like it".  So, finally her sister, said "Can't we serve anything they don't like?" and she says "you serve things the boys (my kids) like all the time, it seems fair that if we're at my house we should have things my kids like." 

No need to answer this.

Any chance some of these comments are jumbled in order because of texting? I have had texts come in the wrong order, and I've had texting partners who are faster, so my comments are 2-3 texts behind. Perhaps she was still just trying to establish that they would have things they liked and it came out snappy. I really don't know how FIL and his comments fit in (the timeline isn't clear to me), so I could be off-base, but it's not like major misunderstandings can't start from something odd like a misattributed comment, and those tend to occur even more often during times of stress and frustration.

 

 

[DreamerGirl]

I am trying to have sympathy for the sil. She has PPD and her kids sound picky.

But she also sounds super jealous of your kids and you and competing for attention. 

PPD does not excuse this behavior. I had several difficulties with relating to pregnancy/birth/PPD. So I am saying this as someone who is trying to understand. It is incredibly hard. But blaming it on PPD does not excuse this behavior.

Directed against whom ?

Two small children who lost a sibling, are having a thanksgiving without both their parents present. OP who suffered enormous loss and yet is cooking the feast and her brother who is ill in hospital. The family are rallying around them as supportive families should be and she seems jealous of the attention and using her kids ? Saying she has PPD and excusing this is disingenuous to all the woman who try to navigate the darkness and still find empathy for others.

She does not have to make Thanksgiving something tolerable for this family . She just needs to get out of the way for those who are doing so and not make unreasonable demands using her kids as an excuse. 

Don't waste any emotional energy on her OP.  I am sorry. ((Hugs))

[HS Mom in NC]

Here's what normal, healthy people do for holiday meals:

1. They encourage people to bring/send dishes the bringers/senders like.
2. They respect the fact that not everyone will choose to put some of every dish everyone brought on their own plates. 

Anything more than those simple principles is a pile of crazy.  You don't have to take any crazy.  Real life example from my family on the other side of the coin: Does anyone other than Aunt Peggy like Aunt Peggy's green bean casserole?  Nope.  But Peggy is welcome to bring her green bean casserole every year and every year only Aunt Peggy and Uncle Steve (married to Aunt Peggy) put it on their plates. No one fusses about it either way. If she notices no one else likes it, then she notices.  If she doesn't notice, then she doesn't.  She hasn't so far or she doesn't care. Shrug. Oh well. It's no one else's job to manage Aunt Peggy and her holiday potlucking decisions.

So send whatever you want to send and whoever wants to eat it can put it on their plate.  Those that don't want to eat it won't put it on their plates. Done. 

If this is about something else between SIL and FIL, then they can hash it out if they choose.  It's nothing to you and none of your business.  No need to fret about it or borrow trouble or worry in the slightest. These are adults able to manage their own relationship.  You're not their mommy and they're not your minor aged kids.

[ktgrok]

I'm still trying to figure out how FIL and Pop wanting stuffing is showing favoritism to your kids! It is HER dad and HER grandfather that want the stuffing, right? What does that have to do with your kids at all??

[freesia]

7 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

I'm still trying to figure out how FIL and Pop wanting stuffing is showing favoritism to your kids! It is HER dad and HER grandfather that want the stuffing, right? What does that have to do with your kids at all??

Yeah, that has me still shaking my head, too.

[Shoeless]

7 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

I'm still trying to figure out how FIL and Pop wanting stuffing is showing favoritism to your kids! It is HER dad and HER grandfather that want the stuffing, right? What does that have to do with your kids at all??

Maybe SIL wants FIL and Pop to want what she wants, otherwise it means they don't love her as much as op's kids? 

I dunno. It's a lot of emotion over stuffing.  

[JustEm]

3 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

I'm still trying to figure out how FIL and Pop wanting stuffing is showing favoritism to your kids! It is HER dad and HER grandfather that want the stuffing, right? What does that have to do with your kids at all??

Nothing. But PPD can really mess with ones head. I can completely come up with a scenario in which her brain made that leap. She is depressed, exhausted, and doesn't feel like she is being supported enough. She is then asked to host Thanksgiving so OP children have the Thanksgiving they want, which she doesn't want to do and likely feels bullied into agreeing to it. Then after a menu she is happy with is agrees upon someone goes and changes it. Well if she feels the Thanksgiving she is hosting is only happening because of OP's children's need for a normal Thanksgiving then the leap to changing the menu is for them isn't hard to see given the  craziness PPD can make you believe.

[JustEm]

Went to edit and my post disappeared

Edited November 23, 2021 by hjffkj

[freesia]

19 minutes ago, hjffkj said:

Nothing. But PPD can really mess with ones head. I can completely come up with a scenario in which her brain made that leap. She is depressed, exhausted, and doesn't feel like she is being supported enough. She is then asked to host Thanksgiving so OP children have the Thanksgiving they want, which she doesn't want to do and likely feels bullied into agreeing to it. Then after a menu she is happy with is agrees upon someone goes and changes it. Well if she feels the Thanksgiving she is hosting is only happening because of OP's children's need for a normal Thanksgiving then the leap to changing the menu is for them isn't hard to see given the  craziness PPD can make you believe.

except the meal is being changed by the grandfather for the Great-grandfather.  And I think bullied is a strong word here.  Maybe pressured or obligated or guilted (internally from herself, not necessarily others)?

[Melissa Louise]

5 hours ago, Idalou said:

Im sorry, but this comes across as cruel, too. How do you know the other ladies are casting the SIL as the problem? How do you come to the conclusion the men are oblivious and only wanting the food? I think you're adding on things in a flippant way that she didn't say

Its definitely not meant that way, but ok. 

 

[Melissa Louise]

8 hours ago, Insertcreativenamehere said:

She is completely out of line and sounds mentally unbalanced and extremely entitled and self-absorbed. I'm sorry that you have to deal with this on top of everything else you've had on your plate. 

Wow, ableist much?

You know PPD is real, right? It's a real illness. Just as real as anyone else's things they've got going on? 

'mentally unbalanced'

Sure hope you're not in the business of supporting any mother's post partum. 

[Melissa Louise]

SIL is at  fault for having poor boundaries. She doesn't want to host. She should have said no to hosting. 

It really does sound like there is a lot of unspoken obligation going on, from all directions. You know what feels good but doesn't ultimately help? Having a whole stack of people pile on to confirm SIL is bad. 

She may or may not be 'bad'. She may or may not deserve the scapegoating. She certainly needs to learn how to take responsibility for her needs and express them clearly and helpfully. 

But something's going on at the level of family communications also, and dealing with this will ultimately be more helpful to the OP than a bitch fest about SIL. 

Not cruel, just an observation of patterns over a number of family + SIL related threads. 

 

[regentrude]

Coming in late... I am lost as to how the stuffing issue is a sign of favoritism. If I understand it correctly, the OP still plans to send all the foods SIL requested for her kids, plus the additional stuffing that the SIL's own grandpa would like to eat. SIL does not have to cook for her own family, and only has two additional kids plus her own grandpa. That's not "hosting Thanksgiving". 

OP has gone above and beyond to help out this SIL by watching and feeding her kids over the summer (I don't know anyone who receives this level of assistance with a new baby).
In contrast, the OP's family went through an extraordinarily difficult situation and received help from extended family to manage. It makes no sense to call this favoritism (not to mention that OP is also taking care of the grandfather-in-law).

In my own FOO, support is given in a very asymmetric way, because needs are very different. My parents did a lot more for my sister who was a single 18y/o mother of a severely disabled preemie. She and my niece lived at home, and of course my parents supported her in many more ways than me, who was a married, working, mother of two healthy children. It would never have occurred to me to begrudge my sister the help she needed and I didn't.
My grandmother lived with our family, raised us and was closer to us than to her other grandchildren (whom she also helped raise at different points in time). Relationships are always a two-way street. My uncle did little for his mother and did not put in the effort to foster a good relationship of his kids with his mother. It would have been silly if my cousins had complained that grandma favored us, because they spent little time with her and didn't make an effort to be close.

OP, even IF there is anything that is asymmetric (I do not like to use the word "fair" because that isn't a sensible concept when needs are so different), your SIL needs to bring that up with her folks. Not your circus, not your monkeys. Send the food and the stuffing. Complaining about you sending an additional dish is so obviously ludicrous that it can only be a symptom of some deeper issue which you cannot solve with an altered menu anyway.

 

 

Edited November 23, 2021 by regentrude

[regentrude]

30 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

SIL is at  fault for having poor boundaries. She doesn't want to host. She should have said no to hosting. 

As the OP said on an earlier post: when SIL was given the choice between feeding her own children and having the OP send the complete meal plus her kids and grandpa, SIL choose the latter because she didn't want to cook for her own family. She isn't "hosting". (She just didn't get her wish to be hosted by OP.)

[Forget-Me-Not]

((( @Baseballandhockey ))) I’m sorry.  You’ve had a stressful year and it’s unfair that she’s doing this. Is she always like this, or do you think the PPD is playing a part? I don’t know what I’d do in your shoes, but I do want to say that you have your own stuff and if you need to step back and make this situation less stressful for your nuclear family this year, it’s ok to do that. Even if other people get mad. I hope you can have a nice holiday however it works out 💙

Edited November 23, 2021 by Forget-Me-Not
Spelling

[JustEm]

1 hour ago, freesia said:

except the meal is being changed by the grandfather for the Great-grandfather.  And I think bullied is a strong word here.  Maybe pressured or obligated or guilted (internally from herself, not necessarily others)?

I'm not talking about the facts of the situation just how I can understand how someone suffering from PPD could view the situation.  I don't think it is rational to have a fight over the presence of stuffing but the sil is clearly dealing with other issues and it isn't hard to picture a scenario where her mental health issues distort her thinking enough for her to put the blame on the kids. I don't think it is right.

[JustEm]

42 minutes ago, regentrude said:

Coming in late... I am lost as to how the stuffing issue is a sign of favoritism. If I understand it correctly, the OP still plans to send all the foods SIL requested for her kids, plus the additional stuffing that the SIL's own grandpa would like to eat. SIL does not have to cook for her own family, and only has two additional kids plus her own grandpa. That's not "hosting Thanksgiving". 

OP has gone above and beyond to help out this SIL by watching and feeding her kids over the summer (I don't know anyone who receives this level of assistance with a new baby).
In contrast, the OP's family went through an extraordinarily difficult situation and received help from extended family to manage. It makes no sense to call this favoritism (not to mention that OP is also taking care of the grandfather-in-law).

In my own FOO, support is given in a very asymmetric way, because needs are very different. My parents did a lot more for my sister who was a single 18y/o mother of a severely disabled preemie. She and my niece lived at home, and of course my parents supported her in many more ways than me, who was a married, working, mother of two healthy children. It would never have occurred to me to begrudge my sister the help she needed and I didn't.
My grandmother lived with our family, raised us and was closer to us than to her other grandchildren (whom she also helped raise at different points in time). Relationships are always a two-way street. My uncle did little for his mother and did not put in the effort to foster a good relationship of his kids with his mother. It would have been silly if my cousins had complained that grandma favored us, because they spent little time with her and didn't make an effort to be close.

OP, even IF there is anything that is asymmetric (I do not like to use the word "fair" because that isn't a sensible concept when needs are so different), your SIL needs to bring that up with her folks. Not your circus, not your monkeys. Send the food and the stuffing. Complaining about you sending an additional dish is so obviously ludicrous that it can only be a symptom of some deeper issue which you cannot solve with an altered menu anyway.

 

 

OP mentioned other people bringing food too so I was under the impression that it wouldn't just be the 3 additional people.  But really it is still hosting Thanksgiving when you weren't planning on having anyone over that day.  I just hosted Thanksgiving on Sunday for my family.  I didn't do any of the cooking but I certainly didn't do nothing.  I cleaned my house beforehand, set up the buffet areas, cleared out my fridge so holiday food and drink could fit, pulled out extra chairs and a table, cleaned up afterwards, and socialized while people were there.  There is a lot more to Thanksgiving than just cooking.  Add the fact that this woman has a baby and PPD and I'm sure it is even more stressful than simply having a normal dinner with her own family.  

[regentrude]

3 minutes ago, hjffkj said:

 There is a lot more to Thanksgiving than just cooking.  Add the fact that this woman has a baby and PPD and I'm sure it is even more stressful than simply having a normal dinner with her own family.  

which, according to the OP's earlier post, she could have had instead but declined, because she didn't want to cook for her own family and rather preferred the OP to deliver food, even if that meant having the OP's kids and her own grandpa

Edited November 23, 2021 by regentrude

[Melissa Louise]

33 minutes ago, regentrude said:

As the OP said on an earlier post: when SIL was given the choice between feeding her own children and having the OP send the complete meal plus her kids and grandpa, SIL choose the latter because she didn't want to cook for her own family. She isn't "hosting". (She just didn't get her wish to be hosted by OP.)

It's ok to not want to have people at your house. What's not ok is that SIL didn't give a clear no to having people gather at her place.

I don't think knee jerk validation is productive for the OP.

It's clear there are unspoken lines of obligation running every which way in this family, that the many obligations are creating major resentments, and that the only way things will improve, and not continue to manifest in the same pattern, is for the unspoken to be brought to light.

 

 

 

[JustEm]

3 minutes ago, regentrude said:

which, according to the OP's earlier post, she could have had instead but declined, because she didn't want to cook for her own family and rather preferred the OP to deliver food, even if that meant having the OP's kids and her own grandpa

Yes, but they agreed upon a menu that the sil was happy with for whatever odd reasons.  So, the change is what set her off. I'm not saying any of it is rational but when mental health issues things aren't always rational.  She is still hosting Thanksgiving and that is stressful for many reasons other than cooking the food. 

[DreamerGirl]

Thank you

Edited November 23, 2021 by DreamerGirl

[Melissa Louise]

Suffering doesn't work this way.

More horrible things happen every day to other people, and yet we still suffer the way we suffer.

I don't think it's remotely helpful to families to maintain a ranked view of suffering, especially once an immediate crisis (which does require prioritization of resources) is past. 

 

 

[regentrude]

1 minute ago, Melissa Louise said:

I don't think it's remotely helpful to families to maintain a ranked view of suffering, especially once an immediate crisis (which does require prioritization of resources) is past. 

Yes, but it is also not helpful to keep a tally and compare who gets how much support. Nothing good comes of that.

The reason the OP won't be able to host is still an immediate crisis. It's not like she is going off on a pleasure jaunt, dumping her kids on SIL.

[DreamerGirl]

1 minute ago, Melissa Louise said:

Suffering doesn't work this way.

More horrible things happen every day to other people, and yet we still suffer the way we suffer.

I don't think it's remotely helpful to families to maintain a ranked view of suffering, especially once an immediate crisis (which does require prioritization of resources) is past. 

 

 

I agree. 

But from what I know from OP's posts, this SIL has received support as well and from OP and her family. 

Also to note, the person for whom stuffing was suggested by her father was the grandfather, a man in his 90s. Who may not have many thanksgivings left. He is also one of those supporting the family. The father of the SIL is in his 70s. The other one supporting the family.

They are old and may have limitations of their own. It is beyond unfair to them to make them guilty and putting it rather crudely a pissing contest of sorts over some stuffing.

PPD is not a reason to excuse bad behavior. This comes across as entitled and bizarre.

[Melissa Louise]

2 minutes ago, regentrude said:

Yes, but it is also not helpful to keep a tally and compare who gets how much support. Nothing good comes of that.

The reason the OP won't be able to host is still an immediate crisis. It's not like she is going off on a pleasure jaunt, dumping her kids on SIL.

Yes, I know. It's a family systems issue, not an OP issue. 

I'm just saying, you can't take PPD and say, oh, this ranks less than this other thing. (Or the other way around). That isn't how humans work. 

Humans suffer how they suffer, regardless of what else is happening. 

 

[regentrude]

5 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

Yes, I know. It's a family systems issue, not an OP issue. 

I'm just saying, you can't take PPD and say, oh, this ranks less than this other thing. (Or the other way around). That isn't how humans work. 

Humans suffer how they suffer, regardless of what else is happening. 

Agreed. What boggles my mind in all the SIL posts: where the heck is SIL's husband? He needs to step up and advocate for her, either help her set boundaries or take over the hosting duties. He seems strangely absent on all these occasions. (ETA: And yes, that's another dynamic outside the OP's control)

Edited November 23, 2021 by regentrude

[Melissa Louise]

Just now, DreamerGirl said:

I agree. 

But from what I know from OP's posts, this SIL has received support as well and from OP and her family. 

Also to note, the person for whom stuffing was suggested by her father was the grandfather, a man in his 90s. Who may not have many thanksgivings left. He is also one of those supporting the family. The father of the SIL is in his 70s. The other one supporting the family.

They are old and may have limitations of their own. It is beyond unfair to them to make them guilty and putting it rather crudely a pissing contest of sorts over some stuffing.

PPD is not a reason to excuse bad behavior. This comes across as entitled and bizarre.

I think there is a huge misunderstanding of what PPD is. It isn't 'feeling a bit down and overwhelmed'. It's a mental illness that screws with your thought processes, and produces, internal but also external suffering. 

Yeah, it sucks the SIL can't be there for the OP. It really does. In an ideal world you get back what you give. 

This isn't an ideal world. 

Stuffing for anyone is uttterly irrelevant here, either way. It's unimportant. Living a long life, I'm sure grandpa realizes just how unimportant it is. 

A sign of a family system doing poorly is that there's a scapegoat. SIL is currently it. That's not to say she isn't behaving badly. But it's a sign there's a problem to be worked out within the family system ( and honestly, whose family doesn't need this, especially after great trauma? It's not a criticism).

 

[Melissa Louise]

1 minute ago, regentrude said:

Agreed. What boggles my mind in all the SIL posts: where the heck is SIL's husband? He needs to step up and advocate for her, either help her set boundaries or take over the hosting duties. He seems strangely absent on all these occasions. 

Yes.

 

[Terabith]

What other support could be offered?  In terms of Thanksgiving, options offered were:  1) nobody comes and you feed your own kids, or 2) you host while other people provide all of the food (and provide a house cleaner and other people do the dishes).  

Just practically speaking....what else can OP do to make things easier on her SIL?  I think people in the family are bending over backwards NOT to make SIL with a baby into a scapegoat.  Practically, what else can be done?  

[Melissa Louise]

1 minute ago, Terabith said:

What other support could be offered?  In terms of Thanksgiving, options offered were:  1) nobody comes and you feed your own kids, or 2) you host while other people provide all of the food (and provide a house cleaner and other people do the dishes).  

Just practically speaking....what else can OP do to make things easier on her SIL?  I think people in the family are bending over backwards NOT to make SIL with a baby into a scapegoat.  Practically, what else can be done?  

I think it's less what can be done, and more about people being responsible for their own boundaries. 

And maybe less about what the kids and grandpa need, and more about what the women in the family need. 

If I was the OP, I would seek out some therapy for dealing with the emeshment that seems to be going on within the extended family, to help carve out my own boundaries. Not because OP is doing anything wrong, but because it would help her. 

Thanksgiving drama isn't about Thanksgiving. 

[DreamerGirl]

20 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

I think there is a huge misunderstanding of what PPD is. It isn't 'feeling a bit down and overwhelmed'. It's a mental illness that screws with your thought processes, and produces, internal but also external suffering. 

I walked the path of PPD and honestly I have sympathy for the SIL. But there seems to be a pattern of behavior of using the children for attention  that is similar to this prior to the birth of the baby. 

20 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

Yeah, it sucks the SIL can't be there for the OP. It really does. In an ideal world you get back what you give. 

This isn't an ideal world. 

SIL does not need to be there for OP. That is an enormous and unfair expectation when she herself is struggling but she needs to not be a stumbling block in the way of others trying to help OP. SIL and OP have received help, OP has given help herself above and beyond in my view while she was going through hell. 

20 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

Stuffing for anyone is uttterly irrelevant here, either way. It's unimportant. Living a long life, I'm sure grandpa realizes just how unimportant it is. 

Grandpa seems like a lovely, giving person and SIL being petty towards him is bizzare. 

20 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

A sign of a family system doing poorly is that there's a scapegoat. SIL is currently it. That's not to say she isn't behaving badly. But it's a sign there's a problem to be worked out within the family system ( and honestly, whose family doesn't need this, especially after great trauma? It's not a criticism).

 

 I don't know enough about being a scapegoat except the biblical sense, but I do not think this is the situation here. I think someone who was the youngest and probably given lots of attention who cannot deal with not being the focus. 

[Melissa Louise]

10 minutes ago, DreamerGirl said:

I walked the path of PPD and honestly I have sympathy for the SIL. But there seems to be a pattern of behavior of using the children for attention  that is similar to this prior to the birth of the baby. 

SIL does not need to be there for OP. That is an enormous and unfair expectation when she herself is struggling but she needs to not be a stumbling block in the way of others trying to help OP. SIL and OP have received help, OP has given help herself above and beyond in my view while she was going through hell. 

Grandpa seems like a lovely, giving person and SIL being petty towards him is bizzare. 

 I don't know enough about being a scapegoat except the biblical sense, but I do not think this is the situation here. I think someone who was the youngest and probably given lots of attention who cannot deal with not being the focus. 

I'd suggest that on an internet forum, we are all probably projecting, just a little. 

OP is smart and good. She can sort through our various projections, take what works, and leave the rest. 

[Soror]

Life isn't fair, sometimes life drops shit all over you and the people that support you and there aren't enough people left to clean it up. It's messy and far from ideal but that is what it is. Everyone is dealing with their own shit and trying to survive. It don't really matter what is ideal or right or fair or logical. SIL only has enough brainspace to think about her own wants and needs right now obviously and it is all distorted. In the scheme, of things stuffing shouldn't matter- shouldn't matter to her or to anyone else. It is nothing worth fighting over. Everyone is at a breaking point after years of high stress and it comes out all wonky. It doesn't matter what people should do, this is not a normal situation.

I think for the OP's sake she needs to be recruiting outside help as much as she can to relieve some stress and I hope has counseling to help cope with everything that she has been through and is continuing to go through.  I wish the OP and her family a peaceful holiday.

[SKL]

Over the years, I've observed that - from my perspective - different sibs/families fall in and out of favor.  A few years from now, it may be you wondering why your SIL/her kids are the favored ones.

I wouldn't do anything about this.  Everyone who has grandparents for their kids should be thankful for whatever relationship that is IMO.  It is not promised or guaranteed.  Grandparents are humans with their own visible and invisible challenges.

[Dianthus]

Normal, healthy people eat stuffing/dressing. Unless it contains oysters. Your SIL is out of line here. 😄 Just include it and don't forget that you are very generous to make the dinner for her.

[Drama Llama]

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Edited December 4, 2021 by Baseballandhockey

[brehon]

You don’t actually have to act differently. You’re not doing anything “wrong” and certainly neither are your kids. Recognizing where SIL’s feelings, actions, etc come from is enough. You can choose to address individual issues as they come up or not. (I would, but I’m not you.) Your kids most definitely should NOT be made to feel bad for their relationships with their gf and ggf. And that I would address with her, especially if/when she voices her thoughts in their hearing.

 I think you may just need to accept that right now there is nothing you can do in this situation aside from standing up for your kids.