Seeking experiences with multiple Covid infections

[skimomma]

For those who have had multiple infections or are close to those that have, can you share whether subsequent infections were more, less, or the same when it came to symptoms, length of symptoms, and lingering effects?  Since it is becoming more and more likely that we are not going to get to the point of controlling this virus via vaccinations and other mitigation efforts (thanks, politics), I am less and less willing to severely limit my family's life indefinitely.  While I have managed to avoid infection, mostly by avoiding many things I enjoy, I am sitting in a county that is on fire (22% positivity, 500/100,000 infection rate, 50% vaccination rate for 18+, very little masking) and cannot see any sort of light at the end of the tunnel.  I have been boosted and will continue to take basic safety measures, but am coming to terms with the likelihood that I will eventually be infected and possibly multiple times if this goes on forever and ever.  Are we seeing trends yet on what happens to people who have had it multiple times?  Specifically people who are getting vaccines as available that are generally in good health?

I only personally know of one fully vaccinated person who got a second infection (first was pre-vaccine) and they were asymptomatic.  But one anecdotal data point is meaningless. 

[PeterPan]

You could flip it and ask whether you would want treatment or want to let the virus run naturally if you get it at some point. We now have multiple treatment options and you can take ivermectin prophylactically (once a week) if you're especially concerned. I had a significant enough reaction to the first vaccine (for which I'm now on ivermectin because 2 ½ months later I was still unwell with severe fatigue, inflammation, etc.) and plan to pursue every treatment I can get if at some point I do get full covid. Pfizer has a new med that overlaps with ivermectin functions, though I'm not sure if it hits the inflammation, and of course there are monoclonal antibodies. So you have options for treatment and I think that's our path forward. 

[lulalu]

DH had it twice. He is also very high risk. Second time around was far far less severe, only lasted 4 days (first round was almost 10 days), no lasting effects. First time he went 9 months of no smell or taste. Second time around felt like a mild cold and he wouldn't have known he had Delta if he hadn't been tested during out weekly tests at the research center. 

[Selkie]

I don't have any personal experience, but I know of a few people in my community who survived their first bout with Covid and then caught it again months later and died from it. 

[MEmama]

I have a friend who has had it twice, both pre-vax. Both times he was knocked off his feet like never before (though not hospitalized —definitely considered mild cases). A year after his second infection he is still battling long covid. Memory loss, limited attention span, heart problems, breathing issues. No one has answers for him, and getting into a specialist is taking forever because the health system is backed up. It’s really frightening.

FWIW he’s in his early 40s, extremely healthy and strong before covid. No previous underlying conditions.

[Mrs Tiggywinkle]

My first Covid infection I really thought I was going to die.  My second Covid was not nearly as bad, I had fatigue and body aches, but it wasn’t awful. However—that one left me with long Covid symptoms and even a year later, I still do not have my taste or smell back.

Anecdotally, the people I know who caught it a second time have been all over the map. From asymptomatic to death.  It’s very individual. I see Pfizer is asking for approval for their new treatment drug today, so hopefully they receive that. The data looks strong.

I personally believe we’ll all go back to normal life at some point and probably get Covid once a year, like the common cold. Hopefully there will be treatments that make it more benign.

[EKS]

1 hour ago, PeterPan said:

We now have multiple treatment options and you can take ivermectin prophylactically (once a week) if you're especially concerned.

Could you link to the clinical studies that show that ivermectin is safe and effective for this purpose?

[Faith-manor]

19 minutes ago, Mrs Tiggywinkle said:

My first Covid infection I really thought I was going to die.  My second Covid was not nearly as bad, I had fatigue and body aches, but it wasn’t awful. However—that one left me with long Covid symptoms and even a year later, I still do not have my taste or smell back.

Anecdotally, the people I know who caught it a second time have been all over the map. From asymptomatic to death.  It’s very individual. I see Pfizer is asking for approval for their new treatment drug today, so hopefully they receive that. The data looks strong.

I personally believe we’ll all go back to normal life at some point and probably get Covid once a year, like the common cold. Hopefully there will be treatments that make it more benign.

From what so am reading, it takes about 3-4 years for similar viruses to mutate to a less lethal, endemic form with far less death and long term disability to something like H1N1 now with Tamiflu if needed. So I think you are right and there maybe an annual vaccine, but not for another 12-18 months. I am encouraged by the Pfizer data on the new treatment.

[desertflower]

This virus varies so much from individual to individual.

I had 6 aunts and uncles and their children who went to my cousin’s wedding in October. All of them are vaccinated (the children are all 12 and up).
 

There was a covid outbreak. 3 of the aunts and uncles tested negative, 2 of them had cold or flu like symptoms and was able to stay home. And one aunt ended up in the hospital. This particular aunt does have an underlying condition. But so does my other aunt who tested negative. All of the children tested negative. 
 

there was about 100 people there inside a church  just to give you an idea of the setting. 
 

my aunt spent at least 14 days in the hospital. Not in the icu. I was told she was home on day 18. That vaccine saved my aunt’s life.
 

as far as multiple infections, we think we had it the December before lockdown. I had a HUGE headache for five days, slept about 16 hours a day for four days and that’s all I remember. My husband was congested which we didn’t think anything of it because he’s congested a lot. One kid had what I thought was a 24 hour virus. 
 

Then in January, two coworkers that sit by him and in front of him came back from the Philippines with what they thought was the flu. My husband was congested again and this time he complained that he was tired. It is unusual for him to complain being sick or tired. So, we should have paused at that. But we thought it was because of so and so which I don’t want to say on this forum. 

If he was infected in January, I was fine. Possibly because I just had it the month before? My son again had what we thought was the 24 hour virus and one of my daughters had a 103.5 temp for a few hours with little congestion. I was scared out of my mind. 

then we got vaccinated, and the first day he goes back to work (most people wore no mask and he only went to work that one day) over the summer (July) we get sick again two days later (Wednesday). Thursday evening he receives an email saying someone he worked with was positive and showing symptoms. I had the same headache just milder with a 100 degree temperature. He was mildly congested. And two of my kids had the same temp with one of them a runny nose. All this lasted one day, two days from that first day of work. He only went in on Monday. One of my kids and dog was sick about 10 days later. My husband tested negative and our home tests said negative too. So, perhaps we didn’t have it last July. But I don’t know of anything else out there that could get my family sick at the same time. Usually, it’s one kid at a time and I’m the last one to be sick. We rarely get sick. 
 

at this point in our life (July), we stayed home. My kids weren’t vaccinated yet, and I didn’t want to chance it with the delta variant out there.  He got something from work and brought it home even though he was wearing a mask. 
 

hope this helps.

[prairiewindmomma]

Our friends who have had multiple infections have also been all over the map. One is now oxygen dependent. 
 

I am keeping home until there is an effective and easily available antiviral. My family members who are lower risk are out living fairly normal lives, but wearing N95s or equivalent. I think there is a middle ground for most people—and you are right, severe restrictions are really only justified if you are high risk. 

[PeterPan]

31 minutes ago, EKS said:

Could you link to the clinical studies that show that ivermectin is safe and effective for this purpose?

You mean like the studies that say that the covid vaccine is "safe" even though it makes some people (like me) sick?

Or maybe we should just wait till pfizermectin comes out and call that safe.

 

[Lori D.]

28 minutes ago, EKS said:

Could you link to the clinical studies that show that ivermectin is safe and effective for this purpose?

US National Library of Medicine Clinical Trials  is studying this question. (also here)
American Journal of Therapeutics, review of 18 studies of the effectiveness of ivermectin in early covid infection
Cureus journal article of a study on health care workers and ivermectin as a prophylactic
Plos One journal article of a study of health care workers and ivermectin as a prophylactic (MAY be the same as above linked study)
FLCCC Alliance pdf article reviewing evidence of efficacy of ivermectin as prophylaxis and treatment of covid

[KSera]

2 hours ago, PeterPan said:

Pfizer has a new med that overlaps with ivermectin functions, though I'm not sure if it hits the inflammation, and of course there are monoclonal antibodies. So you have options for treatment and I think that's our path forward. 

The new Pfizer pill looks super encouraging, but I don’t see any way I would compare it to ivermectin. The Pfizer drug blocks activity of an enzyme required for the virus to replicate. Ivermectin kills parasites. 
 

Im still waiting for the Oxford study on ivermectin, but so far, there is very little research that suggests any help from ivermectin. Two of the biggest studies cited as “proof” have been retracted due to falsification of data.

Fortunately, we have other options that do help, though nothing is 100% of course (including the vaccine). 

[EKS]

15 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

You mean like the studies that say that the covid vaccine is "safe" even though it makes some people (like me) sick?

Or maybe we should just wait till pfizermectin comes out and call that safe.

 

For what it's worth, I was actually asking a serious question.  

 

 

[madteaparty]

FWIW, I’ve travelled internationally 6 times in this pandemic and never managed to catch it. I take measures, and I’m not going to go into them here, but I was traveling before the vaccine. I’m vaccinated but not boostered (and won’t be unless it’s required for travel) my daughter is not vaccinated.

however my sister has had covid twice, and she was vaccinated. mild symptoms both times, and milder the second time (also, one infection was pre vaccine one post). 
ETA that my sister doesn’t seem able to produce antibodies, of any sort. She works in healthcare and has needed vaccines repeated for this reason. 

Edited November 17, 2021 by madteaparty

[PeterPan]

19 minutes ago, KSera said:

The new Pfizer pill looks super encouraging, but I don’t see any way I would compare it to ivermectin. The Pfizer drug blocks activity of an enzyme required for the virus to replicate. Ivermectin kills parasites. 

John Campbell made a whole video on it that even got fact checked. Ivermectin and the Pfizer med apparently overlap on one of the functions. Ivermectin is not just to kill parasites. It does specific things and hence interacts with the process covid uses, which is why it works. But in addition to the overlapping function it also jumps in at the inflammation stage, preventing/reversing inflammation. So I don't know what more the pfizer drug can do, but the ivermectin (which doesn't have the high profit margin of a "new" drug and for which no one is motivated to do those "studies" ) is actually going to be better in that sense if it's both shutting the virus down AND dealing with the inflammation. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ufy2AweXRkc&t=1064s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EMfjtgli55Y&t=78s 

See if I got the links right. I just snagged a couple. He is hilarious, labeling things with scissors and tape and showing how each med works.

I don't know why I'm telling y'all this. Y'll are the experts and I just sit around watching youtube. I just know I was sick with inflammation for 2 ½ months from my first covid 1 shot and now I'm getting better and that I let stupid perjoratives about "horse dewormer" and stupidity delay me in accessing something inexpensive and readily available that had a logical chemical pathway to help. Remember my inflammation threads? Remember the oh yeah you're so smart surely you'll find something to beat this? Well I did. 

18 minutes ago, EKS said:

For what it's worth, I was actually asking a serious question.  

 

 

Sorry, can't tell tone and I get tired of being accused. I was dog sick from covid 1 shot, never got well, and couldn't think well enough to ask that hard for research. It's out there and John Campbell and that FLCCC site have stuff. I just did telehealth trying to get something to help me not get even WORSE with the 2nd covid shot that I have to have for my trip. The prescriber was like hello let's get you well from #1 first. One week of Ivermectin and a stiff dose of prednisone (which alone did nothing) has been amazing. Not like I'd bank my life on it and not saying I agree with these people who are claiming their loved one in the hospital would have lived had they been given ivermectin after they were already that sick. But I think the whole maligning thing is political, financial, and not even common sense. It clearly overlaps with the new pfizer med and clearly has utility, especially for the inflammation. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v8-J1ES86os  This was the video (and the speciic 10 minute segment) that opened my mind. I just can't believe I believed all the stupidity floating around about horse dewormer and junk. It works on specific known pathways and we can know what they are, how they intersect if you take it when you have the virus vs. when you get the vaccine, and whether it would have utility in a given situation. 

But I didn't research it harder than that honestly. I've been down for 2 ½ months from the first stupid shot. When you're sick, you just ask for help and hope it works, kwim? 

Edited November 17, 2021 by PeterPan

[Acadie]

I've been thinking of starting a thread on Covid infections post-booster. Both anecdotal information and data as it becomes available will help me assess risk to my family once we're all boosted (waiting for dd16 to be eligible). 

 

[PeterPan]

21 minutes ago, KSera said:

Im still waiting for the Oxford study on ivermectin, but so far, there is very little research that suggests any help from ivermectin. Two of the biggest studies cited as “proof” have been retracted due to falsification of data.

Fortunately, we have other options that do help, though nothing is 100% of course (including the vaccine). 

Personally, I didn't care. My doctor was offering me SQUAT, nothing for inflammation either currently or with the next vaccine. I want to travel, can't travel without shot 2, and he had NO TREATMENT. Zilcho, nada. And I had already done the ibuprofen gig the pandas docs are saying and it wasn't enough. 

So personally, I felt like *taking a shot* on a $10 a capsule pill that *might* help, so long as I took it within doctor's parameters and in the way specified to prevent side effects was reasonable. $20 a day to get rid of 2 ½ months of misery from that stupid shot. And the theory is that if you take the ivermectin prophylactically with the shot, it shuts down the inflammation stage WITHOUT AFFECTING EFFICACY. That makes WAY more sense to me than taking celebrex, ibuprofen, and all the other stuff we've seen bantered about in threads here. So those docs can make up stuff whole cloth that doesn't make sense and might affect efficacy but we can't talk about ivermectin for that??? 

Watch the video I linked above. Clear pathway for why it works for inflammation. Personally, I think we're all a lot more racist than we want to admit and we don't want ivermectin because it's cheap and used in poor countries. Seriously, why else the name calling when there's at least SOME utility? Western arrogance. Well let them rot. I just wanted to feel better and it's working. And if it helps me take the 2nd covid shot without having the severe side effects, I think that's a win. If it doesn't, I'm out $10. 

(therapeutic dose is $20 a day, prophylactic is $10 a week)

[MEmama]

1 hour ago, MEmama said:

I have a friend who has had it twice, both pre-vax. Both times he was knocked off his feet like never before (though not hospitalized —definitely considered mild cases). A year after his second infection he is still battling long covid. Memory loss, limited attention span, heart problems, breathing issues. No one has answers for him, and getting into a specialist is taking forever because the health system is backed up. It’s really frightening.

FWIW he’s in his early 40s, extremely healthy and strong before covid. No previous underlying conditions.

I’m adding, in case anyone’s interested, that his first experience was in January 2020. Obviously he wasn’t tested but to me it was obvious (after paying enough attention here), and the second time he got it he felt very much the same (and did test positive). So, first time was the first wave, second was Delta. Would be interesting if there is a pattern with long term effects and variants. 

[Martha in GA]

5 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

Personally, I didn't care. My doctor was offering me SQUAT, nothing for inflammation either currently or with the next vaccine. I want to travel, can't travel without shot 2, and he had NO TREATMENT. Zilcho, nada. And I had already done the ibuprofen gig the pandas docs are saying and it wasn't enough. 

Can you possibly get a medical exemption for the second shot? 

 

[Anne]

2 hours ago, Selkie said:

I don't have any personal experience, but I know of a few people in my community who survived their first bout with Covid and then caught it again months later and died from it. 

Oh no - were they vaccinated?

[Anne]

My dh and I both had covid post-vax.  I had a mild case but lost my sense of smell and had a lot of fatigue for 4-5 weeks afterwards.  My dh got the monoclonal antibody infusion (which I believe everybody on all sides of this issue is in favor of), and his case was even milder than mine and he didn’t have the recovery issues I had.    When/if I get Covid again, I will run, not walk, to get the monoclonal infusion.

Anne

[Selkie]

17 minutes ago, Anne said:

Oh no - were they vaccinated?

I know one of them was - an elderly gentleman. Not sure about the others.

[skimomma]

3 hours ago, PeterPan said:

You could flip it and ask whether you would want treatment or want to let the virus run naturally if you get it at some point. We now have multiple treatment options and you can take ivermectin prophylactically (once a week) if you're especially concerned. I had a significant enough reaction to the first vaccine (for which I'm now on ivermectin because 2 ½ months later I was still unwell with severe fatigue, inflammation, etc.) and plan to pursue every treatment I can get if at some point I do get full covid. Pfizer has a new med that overlaps with ivermectin functions, though I'm not sure if it hits the inflammation, and of course there are monoclonal antibodies. So you have options for treatment and I think that's our path forward. 

I appreciate that you took the time to respond but this is not what I was asking.  I was asking for actual experiences with multiple Covid infections.  Frankly, I am not interested in any "treatment" or prophylactic until there is significant research published by credible sources.  Nor would I have safe access to or medical oversight of such treatments even if I did want to go there.  I do not want to see this thread get overrun by yet another ivermectin fight.  I do thank @Lori D. for listing some preliminary studies on the subject.  

[Lori D.]

OP - this is going to be SO variable, due to the overall health and underlying issues of the individual.

I recently watched update videos #16 and #18 from Merogenics, which are videos by a geneticist who is very interested in the virus and the vaccine. He discusses a very recent study in Sweden which showed, unexpectedly, that the spike protein of the vaccine appears to be able to enter the DNA and do a double shearing of DNA strands, which ultimately leads to reduced immunity and ability of cells to repair.

This appears to be similar to what the virus does (although the virus does many other things as well), which means that an effective prophylactic approach would be much better for the body than booster vaccines, at least until MRNA vaccines are reconfigured to use just the tip of the spike, rather than the full length of the spike, which is what can cause the problem (see the videos for full explanation).

It seems to me that this shearing of DNA by the spike protein on the virus would partly explain why some people do not do well with a second bout of covid -- that they perhaps already had their immunity and DNA ability for cell repair damaged by the virus, and flat out don't have the cellular ability to stand up to the damage caused a second round of the virus...

Just musing out loud...

Edited November 17, 2021 by Lori D.

[skimomma]

2 minutes ago, Lori D. said:

OP - this is going to be SO variable, due to the overall health and underlying issues of the individual.

I recently watched update videos #16 and #18 from Merogenics, which are videos by a geneticist who is very interested in the virus and the vaccine. He discusses a very recent study in Sweden which showed, unexpectedly, that the spike protein of the vaccine appears to enter the DNA and do a double shearing of DNA strands, which ultimately leads to reduced immunity and ability of cells to repair.

This appears to be similar to what the virus does (although the virus does many other things as well), which means that an effective prophylactic approach would be much better for the body than booster vaccines, at least until MRNA vaccines are reconfigured to use just the tip of the spike, rather than the full length of the spike, which is what can cause the problem (see the videos for full explanation).

It seems to me that this shearing of DNA by the spike protein on the virus would partly explain why some people do not do well with a second bout of covid -- that they perhaps already had their immunity and DNA ability for cell repair damaged by the virus, and flat out don't have the cellular ability to stand up to the damage caused a second round of the virus...

Just musing out loud...

I don't fully understand all of this but if it turns out to be true this is kind of where I was going with my original question.  An unscientific polling on what people are actually seeing in multiple infections.  I realize it will vary widely.  If anecdotally, nearly everyone responded with claims of lesser symptoms or the opposite, that would be telling to me.  So far, that is not the case.  But I thought it was worth the ask.  And still think so.

[Mrs Tiggywinkle]

8 minutes ago, Lori D. said:

OP - this is going to be SO variable, due to the overall health and underlying issues of the individual.

I recently watched update videos #16 and #18 from Merogenics, which are videos by a geneticist who is very interested in the virus and the vaccine. He discusses a very recent study in Sweden which showed, unexpectedly, that the spike protein of the vaccine appears to enter the DNA and do a double shearing of DNA strands, which ultimately leads to reduced immunity and ability of cells to repair.

This appears to be similar to what the virus does (although the virus does many other things as well), which means that an effective prophylactic approach would be much better for the body than booster vaccines, at least until MRNA vaccines are reconfigured to use just the tip of the spike, rather than the full length of the spike, which is what can cause the problem (see the videos for full explanation).

It seems to me that this shearing of DNA by the spike protein on the virus would partly explain why some people do not do well with a second bout of covid -- that they perhaps already had their immunity and DNA ability for cell repair damaged by the virus, and flat out don't have the cellular ability to stand up to the damage caused a second round of the virus...

Just musing out loud...

I’m glad you posted it, but it’s about the most depressing thing I’ve read in a while.  
 

[Lori D.]

43 minutes ago, skimomma said:

I appreciate that you took the time to respond but this is not what I was asking.  I was asking for actual experiences with multiple Covid infections...

All I have is one anecdotal case of a family I know locally who had the virus in the summer of 2020, and then came down with it again less than 6 months later (so, pre-Delta variant). Parents are in their 40s, oldest daughter is early 20s, and all were in reasonably good health. I believe it was like "a bad flu" for them both times, and I did not hear of any long-term effects. So: younger ages and no pre-existing conditions led to not-fun-times, but no permanent damage.

On the other hand, the adult daughter (early 30s) of a woman I know has permanent heart damage (that has led to multiple hospitalizations on and off this past summer) due to just a one-time bout with covid (I don't know if it was Delta variant or not)...

 

ETA -- Since Delta variant is something like 95% of the covid currently out there worldwide, I don't think my anecdotal evidence is going to help much, FWIW...

Edited November 17, 2021 by Lori D.

[Lori D.]

2 minutes ago, Mrs Tiggywinkle said:

I’m glad you posted it, but it’s about the most depressing thing I’ve read in a while.  
 

I thought so too. 🥲 But it is important to learn everything we can, even if it is not happy news, to make improvements to future vaccines, develop early treatments, and hopefully, even repairing therapies.

Edited November 17, 2021 by Lori D.

[Mrs Tiggywinkle]

2 minutes ago, Lori D. said:

I thought so too. 🥲 But it is important to learn everything we can, even if it is not happy news, to make improvements to future vaccines, develop early treatments, and hopefully, even repairing therapies.

I went and read the actual study (here: https://www.mdpi.com/1999-4915/13/10/2056/htm ).  It’s fairly compelling and definitely concerning, especially since the dna damage appeared to be caused both by the vaccines and by Covid itself.

[bluemongoose]

I know of 2 cases where people got the virus twice.

Case 1: Whole family (adults and kids) got the first strain back in spring 2020. They said it was like a rough cold, but they did just fine. They got it a second time in Spring 2021 right before being eligible for vaccination. This was the Kent variant. They were very very ill, scared, and one barely kept out of the hospital. A couple of the family members have suffered from depression since the second round of COVID. They had no problems after the first round. They said it was much much worse the second time.

 

Case 2: Person got the first strain in March 2020. The illness itself was just like a regular flu. Person didnt enjoy it, but wasn't concerned about their level of illness. However, they have had pretty bad Long COVID symptoms since. Person got mRNA vaccine in Spring 2021. Had a breakthrough case fall of 2021 of the Delta variant. The illness was not bad at all. They said just some sneezing and runny nose. Their unvaccinated small child was much much sicker than they were. However, person has added some new symptoms to their previous still existing Long COVID symptoms from the first infection. 

[Toocrazy!!]

9 minutes ago, Mrs Tiggywinkle said:

I went and read the actual study (here: https://www.mdpi.com/1999-4915/13/10/2056/htm ).  It’s fairly compelling and definitely concerning, especially since the dna damage appeared to be caused both by the vaccines and by Covid itself.

I do not have enough scientific background to truly understand this, but it does sound concerning. 
 

I’m not really ready to make a decision on the booster, but I’m traveling in a few weeks, and I really don’t want to get sick so far away from home and be stuck somewhere. My appointment is for tomorrow, and then I read this kind of news. 
 

Why does it have to be so complicated! 

[PeterPan]

43 minutes ago, Martha in GA said:

Can you possibly get a medical exemption for the second shot? 

 

Not if I want to travel. And still, I WANT the layer of safety a vaccine provides. I'm very cognizant that if I'm getting this much inflammation with just the spike protein that I would not like what happens with full covid.

[KSera]

26 minutes ago, Mrs Tiggywinkle said:

I went and read the actual study (here: https://www.mdpi.com/1999-4915/13/10/2056/htm ).  It’s fairly compelling and definitely concerning, especially since the dna damage appeared to be caused both by the vaccines and by Covid itself.

Thanks for sharing the link to the study. I need to go back and spend more time with it, but from an initial look, I don’t see where this has been shown to happen with the vaccine at this point. It sounds like the study was based completely on the actual virus, which we already have seen in other studies has this issue with the spike proteins interacting with DNA, but thus far the vaccine has not been shown to do it. sounds like they are speculating that it could happen with vaccines that use the full length of the spike protein based on what they saw with the virus. Frustratingly, when I look for more information about the study, everything that gets pulled up are conspiracy theory sites explaining with many scare words about how the study found that the vaccine damages DNA 🙄. When that wasn’t the point of the study at all. 

Edited November 17, 2021 by KSera
Typo

[skimomma]

18 minutes ago, Mrs Tiggywinkle said:

I went and read the actual study (here: https://www.mdpi.com/1999-4915/13/10/2056/htm ).  It’s fairly compelling and definitely concerning, especially since the dna damage appeared to be caused both by the vaccines and by Covid itself.

Again, I am reading without the benefit of medical background but my feeling is if we are going to have damaged dna either way, I'd rather have it with a lessened chance of the potential long covid effects of being infected.  I would be interested to hear completing arguments that challenge that stance.

[PeterPan]

47 minutes ago, Lori D. said:

shearing of DNA by the spike protein

With any luck, I'll go down in glory on a cruise ship before this becomes an issue. I mean, we're going down either way (with the virus, without the virus), so I'm just plowing forward and hoping for the best. 

[Jean in Newcastle]

My anecdotal experience is that everyone who has gotten Covid once or twice (and I know some who have gotten it twice) were not vaccinated.  Those who got it twice had it both times like a bad flu (but honestly were down more weeks than people I know who have gotten a bad flu.)  I don't know a single person who has gotten it who was vaccinated.  (Not saying that breakthroughs don't happen - but you were asking for our experiences and this is mine.) 

[Toocrazy!!]

I know one person who has had it twice, non vaccinated both times. But second was most likely delta. He was very sick the first time, and still sick, but less so the second. Not hospitalized either time, but definitely less severe his second round. His vaccinated wife was nearly asymptomatic when she had it the same time as his second infection. 
 

I

[TCB]

22 minutes ago, skimomma said:

Again, I am reading without the benefit of medical background but my feeling is if we are going to have damaged dna either way, I'd rather have it with a lessened chance of the potential long covid effects of being infected.  I would be interested to hear completing arguments that challenge that stance.

The study that looked at Non-Covid deaths among vaccinated and unvaccinated might be somewhat comforting too. It found a lower rate of death, Non Covid Death, in the vaccinated group. I think they looked at something like 11 million people. It has been linked on other threads, I listened to them talking about it on the TWIV podcast a couple of weeks ago. It would appear that whatever the vaccine is doing, it is not causing more deaths in those that received it, indeed they found less deaths in that group.

[matrips]

26 minutes ago, KSera said:

Thanks for sharing the link to the study. I need to go back and spend more time with it, but from an initial look, I don’t see where this has been shown to happen with the vaccine at this point. It sounds like the study was based completely on the actual virus, which we already have seen in other studies has this issue with the spike proteins interacting with DNA, but thus far the vaccine has not been shown to do it. sounds like they are speculating that it could happen with vaccines that use the full length of the spike protein based on what they saw with the virus. Frustratingly, when I look for more information about the study, everything that gets pulled up are conspiracy theory sites explaining with many scare words about how the study found that the vaccine damages DNA 🙄. When that wasn’t the point of the study at all. 

I’m reading that it is the spike protein itself causing the issue with the DNA .  Both covid and the shot produce the spike protein.  I wouldn’t think there is a difference in how you got the spike protein.

[Toocrazy!!]

I know several people who have had breakthrough infections after vaccinations.  One elderly gentleman got antibodies very early on, like day 3 and rebounded quickly. One was immunocompromised, was not treated with antibodies and passed away. Two others received antibodies and healed fairly quickly. 
I know one teen who had a breakthrough and felt poorly. He tested negative many times, but finally ended up with a positive test. He was sick for about 10 days. 
 

ETA- I don’t know anyone who had it, was vaccinated and then had it again. 

Edited November 17, 2021 by Toocrazy!!

[TCB]

8 minutes ago, matrips said:

I’m reading that it is the spike protein itself causing the issue with the DNA .  Both covid and the shot produce the spike protein.  I wouldn’t think there is a difference in how you got the spike protein.

The spike protein in the mRNA vaccines is in the pre-attachment state though. It was found that by attaching 2 proteins, the spike protein is locked in its pre-attachment phase and not able to bind with receptors. This is not an area of expertise for me, but there is a good Q&A type podcast from MedCram that discusses it. It seems that the spike protein in the mRNA vaccines may not behave in the same way as that on the SARS-CoV2 virus.

Edited November 17, 2021 by TCB
Typo

[ScoutTN]

Dh had it twice: February 2020 and January 2021. First time was like a cold, second like the flu.

[KSera]

2 hours ago, matrips said:

I’m reading that it is the spike protein itself causing the issue with the DNA .  Both covid and the shot produce the spike protein.  I wouldn’t think there is a difference in how you got the spike protein.

 

2 hours ago, TCB said:

The spike protein in the mRNA vaccines is in the pre-attachment state though. It was found that by attaching 2 proteins, the spike protein is locked in its pre-attachment phase and not able to bind with receptors. This is not an area of expertise for me, but there is a good Q&A type podcast from MedCram that discusses it. It seems that the spike protein in the mRNA vaccines may not behave in the same way as that on the SARS-CoV2 virus.

Yes, this is why I don't think we can jump straight from the virus causing this damage to that necessarily meaning that the vaccine does the same thing. It might be that it does, but we don't know yet, and so far there have been a number of indications that the vaccine spike protein presents itself differently. Here's an article about a study that was looking at something else, but discusses this finding: How Immunity Generated from COVID-19 Vaccines Differs from an Infection

Quote

Specifically, antibodies elicited by the mRNA vaccine were more focused to the RBD compared to antibodies elicited by an infection, which more often targeted other portions of the spike protein. Importantly, the vaccine-elicited antibodies targeted a broader range of places on the RBD than those elicited by natural infection.

It's entirely possible it will turn out the vaccine can do the same, but we haven't seen that yet, and I'm primarily taking exception with the wide shock-style reporting I'm seeing all across the web on right wing sites that this study has generated, with headlines like, "SCIENCE HORROR: Vaccine spike protein enters cell nuclei" Often appearing on websites also declaring that a former president will be reinstated as president before the end of this year 🙄. This study was about the virus and that's what the headlines should be about. It's totally valid to discuss what this might mean about the vaccine's ability to do this, but it's completely disingenuous to report this as a horrific finding about the vaccine.

[Faith-manor]

The only anecdotal evidence I have is that my mom's friend who is dying of covid on a vent and will be taken off life support soon had it last November and was like a really bad case of flu, but did not get long covid nor need much support..her husband had it at the same time, and it was like a bad cold. Then they got it again last week. They were never vaccinated. She is dying, and he is going to have to go to rehab, and maybe if lucky assisted living afterward, but the docs and physical therapist say it is more likely he will go to a nursing home. These are the only people I have known that had it twice. I know someone who speculates that she had it in February 2020 when there wad no testing in our area, and it was a bit like bronchitis for her, and she had a positive test last April and needed oxygen and had to lay prone for a few days. But, since there was no confirmation of her theory from Feb. 2020, and she is really susceptible to bronchitis annually, it might very well have just been that. There wad a lot of nasty influenza going around and many folks were having a secondary round of bronchitis with it. When two nasty viruses go bonkers together and there isn't testing, there just isn't any way to know for sure.

[matrips]

4 hours ago, TCB said:

The spike protein in the mRNA vaccines is in the pre-attachment state though. It was found that by attaching 2 proteins, the spike protein is locked in its pre-attachment phase and not able to bind with receptors. This is not an area of expertise for me, but there is a good Q&A type podcast from MedCram that discusses it. It seems that the spike protein in the mRNA vaccines may not behave in the same way as that on the SARS-CoV2 virus.

Yes, I read more articles and agree that the protein is designed with that intention. Does that apply to both the mRNA style and the J and J?  Or just the mRNA?

  Also, those articles also made the point the vaccine safety is based on it going in the deltoid muscle, and that if it enters the bloodstream, there could be harm.  So wondering how the person injecting the shot down ensures it’s definitely going in the right place and if mistakes have been made?  I don’t know.  I’ve seen people debate the pros and cons of aspirating first.  I’m not a medical person by any means. I just find it all interesting as they learn more.

[PeterPan]

1 hour ago, matrips said:

So wondering how the person injecting the shot down ensures it’s definitely going in the right place and if mistakes have been made?  I don’t know.  I’ve seen people debate the pros and cons of aspirating first.

Yup, the logic on the aspirating seems so clear (to prevent even the SLIGHTEST possibly of such extreme risk) that I can't fathom why our brilliant gov't keeps shutting it down and saying they needn't bother. It leaves us as consumers having to go in and ASK for this potentially important procedure and hoping the pusher on the other end actually knows how and will do it. It's ridiculous.

[EKS]

7 hours ago, skimomma said:

Again, I am reading without the benefit of medical background but my feeling is if we are going to have damaged dna either way, I'd rather have it with a lessened chance of the potential long covid effects of being infected.  I would be interested to hear completing arguments that challenge that stance.

That's not what the article is saying. It's saying that the spike protein inhibits the mechanisms that allow for us to make antibodies to new pathogens. This is done by DNA recombination and what the spike protein is inhibiting is the knitting together of the DNA molecules during this process.  The article is not saying that the vaccine damages your DNA or that it has a widespread effect on DNA repair mechanisms in general.  

[goldberry]

I know one person who had it twice, unvaxxed. Second time was much worse. So yes, it seems random.

Side note, we just lost an unvaccinated aunt to Covid yesterday. Early 60s.

Edited November 18, 2021 by goldberry

[wathe]

1 hour ago, PeterPan said:

Yup, the logic on the aspirating seems so clear (to prevent even the SLIGHTEST possibly of such extreme risk) that I can't fathom why our brilliant gov't keeps shutting it down and saying they needn't bother. It leaves us as consumers having to go in and ASK for this potentially important procedure and hoping the pusher on the other end actually knows how and will do it. It's ridiculous.

I disagree.  The guidelines recommending against aspiration during IM immunization at the deltoid site exist for a reason.

The purpose of aspiration is to identify accidental cannulation of a blood vessel.

The probability of accidentally cannulating a blood vessel at the deltoid injection site is vanishingly small:

There aren't any large enough vessels at the deltoid injection site.  That's why we use it.

The angle of injection is 90 degrees to the direction of travel of any (incredibly unlikely) rogue vessels large enough to cannulate.  Any one who's put in an IV knows that cannulation at a 90 degree angle is pretty much impossible.  I don't think that there is any evidence in the literature to suggest that it's ever happened with deltoid IM immunization.

Smaller blood vessels sometimes rupture with vaccination.  But then they bleed/leak into the muscle, they do not suck the vaccine IV (blood vessels are pressurized.  Vaccine cannot passively travel against a pressure gradient).  This is not the same thing as cannulating a vessel.

Aspiration causes harm: increased tissue trauma and increased pain.

This is not a government conspiracy.  It's best-evidence practice: evidence of harm plus no evidence of benefit = do not aspirate.