Nm

[Drama Llama]

...

Edited October 27, 2021 by BaseballandHockey

[fraidycat]

Gaslighting is making the other person question their own sanity. Telling them that they are imagining something happened, even if they were there and saw/experienced the event happening.

"We'll have apple pie for dessert right after dinner"

After dinner, kid asks for pie.

"What are you talking about? We're having pudding. I never said anything about pie, you must have imagined that."

Edited August 5, 2021 by fraidycat

[TheReader]

1 minute ago, fraidycat said:

Gaslighting is making the other person question their own sanity. Telling them that they are imagining something happened, even if they were there and saw/experienced the event happening.

"We'll have apple pie for dessert right after dinner"

After dinner, kid asks for pie.

"What are you talking about? We're having pudding. I never said anything about pie, you must have imagined that."

Yes, this. 

I don't think I could explain it better if I tried. 

[AbcdeDooDah]

"l'd be glad to talk to you about this when I'm not being yelled at."

"I'm not yelling, I'm raising my voice." 

On it's own, that bad enough but then when it happens again, person says, "I'd be glad to talk to you when you're not raising your voice."

"I'm not raising my voice, I'm talking loudly."

😑

I've had this exact conversation.

 

[Katy]

It’s also used when a person’s feelings or experience is dismissed. 

[Drama Llama]

...

Edited October 27, 2021 by BaseballandHockey

[catz]

As an aside, it's gaslighting to accuse someone of gaslighting if that isn't what is happening.  I seriously cannot imagine you actually gaslighting your children.  No one is a perfect parent, but gaslighting is generally very blatant and intentional.  

[Corraleno]

2 minutes ago, BaseballandHockey said:

I don’t feel like I did any of that.

Either the other person doesn't understand what the word means, or they themselves are gaslighting YOU, to make you question your own interpretation and experience of events.

Edited August 5, 2021 by Corraleno

[Drama Llama]

...

Edited October 27, 2021 by BaseballandHockey

[OH_Homeschooler]

3 minutes ago, BaseballandHockey said:

I don’t feel like I did any of that.

I feel like it's becoming one of those concepts that people are vaguely familiar with and use inappropriately as it gains in popularity. 

[Katy]

Can you explain what they thought was gaslighting?  We can help you figure it out better from the story.

eta: IME very sensitive people who are also suffering from anxiety or depression tend to cast things in the worst possible light.  I have a relative who accused my aunt of similar narcissistic behavior.  No one is perfect but I was there for most of the situations and no mentally healthy person would interpret those events that way. 

Edited August 5, 2021 by Katy

[Drama Llama]

...

Edited October 27, 2021 by BaseballandHockey

[Katy]

1 minute ago, BaseballandHockey said:

Not in a public forum.  I could PM maybe.

Go for it.

[itsheresomewhere]

I have heard it used recently in the meaning of projecting your fears onto your child or being somewhat irrational with your child ( overprotective in a way that is not healthy).   As the meaning of gas lighting I have known was not what they were using it as.  I have come to the conclusion that it must now have some odd meaning in some areas.  That or people have no idea the actual meaning of gas lighting. 

[Katy]

Just now, itsheresomewhere said:

I have heard it used recently in the meaning of projecting your fears onto your child or being somewhat irrational with your child ( overprotective in a way that is not healthy).   As the meaning of gas lighting I have known was not what they were using it as.  I have come to the conclusion that it must now have some odd meaning in some areas.  That or people have no idea the actual meaning of gas lighting. 

That’s projection, not gaslighting. Neither are necessarily healthy but the person was confused or distracted.

[Drama Llama]

...

Edited October 27, 2021 by BaseballandHockey

[itsheresomewhere]

Just now, Katy said:

That’s projection, not gaslighting. Neither are necessarily healthy but the person was confused or distracted.

Sadly, it was not just one person.  I really  am debating if it was just not knowing the meaning or a new meaning in the area.  

[fraidycat]

2 minutes ago, BaseballandHockey said:

I don’t feel like I did any of that.

It sounds like the person making the accusation disagreed with a parenting choice you made and started throwing around "shaming words" to try to make you feel bad.

I only "know" you as a stranger on the internet, but I can't imagine you intentionally harming your children, psychologically or even dismissing and brushing off their concerns or feelings.
 

Gaslighting can sometimes happen unintentionally, though. If a child expresses a feeling that they experience and you tell them they are wrong about their feelings. 

 

[Katy]

2 minutes ago, itsheresomewhere said:

Sadly, it was not just one person.  I really  am debating if it was just not knowing the meaning or a new meaning in the area.  

Google tells me that many people are confused about the two.  There are tables to sort out the difference.  Maybe if you’re not very educated about it and just started learning about emotional abuse it’s difficult to keep sorted.

[Katy]

Did you see Cuomo’s response to the investigation of him?  DH called it, “a master class in gaslighting.”

[Drama Llama]

...

Edited October 27, 2021 by BaseballandHockey

[Carrie12345]

11 minutes ago, OH_Homeschooler said:

I feel like it's becoming one of those concepts that people are vaguely familiar with and use inappropriately as it gains in popularity. 

Yup.

3 minutes ago, itsheresomewhere said:

Sadly, it was not just one person.  I really  am debating if it was just not knowing the meaning or a new meaning in the area.  

Did you state or suggest an untruth as a truth to your kids? Or “correct” their opinion or feelings to your own? If not, they’re probably way off base. 
(I’m not presenting that as a definition, but that’s basically where things wind up.)

[Drama Llama]

...

Edited October 27, 2021 by BaseballandHockey

[Carrie12345]

5 minutes ago, BaseballandHockey said:

Maybe

Oops. Well, if you told them they like broccoli, you won’t get any judgment from me. 😉 

[Carrie12345]

Adding, whatever it might be, you CAN go back to them and say, “Hey, when you said X and I said Y, I was thinking about ______. X is true/how you feel/other, and I promise to listen better.” Or something along those lines.

 

[Farrar]

Gaslighting has become such a buzzword in the last few years so I think a lot of people are using it incorrectly.

I think with young kids and parents, there can be a bit of a weird line there. We routinely want to make our kids rework their very perceptions because they often don't understand things in a sophisticated way or get stuck on an impression that actually is wrong. We do need to help them understand when they don't have the whole understanding or have misunderstood because they were young. And that's a rough thing for a kid to hear.

But also, we can't tell them "you're not allowed to feel that way" because that's not fair or productive. And when it crosses from "you have misunderstood these facts" (tough, but good parenting) and "you're not allowed to have that feeling" (not so good parenting) to "you do not actually feel that way" (also not good parenting) then it has maybe crossed the line into gaslighting your own kids. Because the goal is to help them grow their understanding of the world around them. But they are the people who understand how they feel the best - even if we sometimes understand why they feel that way better than they do. And I have seen some parents do that.

[Lecka]

Skipping to the bottom — my guess is they think you are telling them something is their own idea, but the person thinks it’s really your idea.  
 

It can be something where someone doesn’t like the choices a parent makes or what a parent tells their child, and they disapprove of the parent’s choice, but it’s actually reasonable and the child is on board.

 

If it has to do with Covid precautions this is a thought I have!

Edit:  it’s on my mind, and it is a topic where I think a lot of people right now think other people are indoctrinating their children in an unhealthy way. 

 

Edited August 5, 2021 by Lecka

[pinball]

18 minutes ago, Katy said:

Did you see Cuomo’s response to the investigation of him?  DH called it, “a master class in gaslighting.”

He’s a monster. he picked the most vulnerable of his victims to address in his canned response, then twisted it around to make it about poor, poor, Andrew. He was just trying to help. Then he threw his own relative in there…he was trying help bc he went thru the same thing was a relative who was sexually abused. 
 

what an absolute monster 

 

[itsheresomewhere]

2 minutes ago, pinball said:

He’s a monster. he picked the most vulnerable of his victims to address in his canned response, then twisted it around to make it about poor, poor, Andrew. He was just trying to help. Then he threw his own relative in there…he was trying help bc he went thru the same thing was a relative who was sexually abused. 
 

what an absolute monster 

 

A master at gaslighting is right. It is about time people see who he is.  

[fraidycat]

9 minutes ago, BaseballandHockey said:

No the person is someone who is consistently kind to me, so if they see this dynamic I need to take it seriously,  

And this right here is why I say I can't see you doing it intentionally. Because you are taking this seriously and want to fix it, IF you did do something wrong.

You may have unintentionally gaslit your child, being a human who sometimes makes mistakes and all. So, if you trust this person's judgement and their understanding of the word (seems like it can be misunderstood quite often), then I trust that you will seek to understand what went wrong in the interaction with your child and apologize to them for hurting them.

Conversely, even kind people can be wrong sometimes. For example, the "vibe" I get is that YOU are inherently kind, loving, and try very hard to do the right thing for all of your loved ones. And yet, you were accused of gaslighting someone you love more than life itself. 
 

So, this person may be right in their assessment of the situation, but it is just as likely that they could also be wrong. I don't know the situation, so I can't say which is which. 
 

Big, big hugs! You are in such a vulnerable state right now. I hope you are able to reach the understanding you seek and rectify anything that needs to be rectified so you move on from this quickly in your heart and mind. ❤️

[Jenny in Florida]

54 minutes ago, FuzzyCatz said:

As an aside, it's gaslighting to accuse someone of gaslighting if that isn't what is happening.  I seriously cannot imagine you actually gaslighting your children.  No one is a perfect parent, but gaslighting is generally very blatant and intentional.  

My mother gaslit me throughout my childhood and right up until the time I stopped interacting with her. Despite the fact that she actually taught me the meaning of the term (and described the film from which it is derived), I didn't associate the word with my own experiences until just a couple of years ago. I was talking to a young friend who was having trouble with her mother, and we realized that we had very similar experiences with these interactions.

I was frequently told I "remembered things wrong," despite the fact that I have an excellent memory.

When I expressed feelings of which my mother disapproved, I was met with scorn and dismissed as a wimp or told not to exaggerate. 

It was pretty subtle, actually, at least from the point of view of a child. But it left me with a lot of insecurity and an inability to trust my own perceptions, memories and feelings. I often look to others for outside validation that events happened or that they happened in a certain way, because I tend to assume I am wrong.

I am 100% certain that my mother would deny that she did this at all, let alone that it was intentional.

Edited August 5, 2021 by Jenny in Florida

[Drama Llama]

...

Edited October 27, 2021 by BaseballandHockey

[Katy]

2 minutes ago, BaseballandHockey said:

I hope that even if I did gaslight my kid it was not as bad as Cuomo.

I'm absolutely certain it could not have been.

[catz]

9 minutes ago, Jenny in Florida said:

 

I am 100% certain that my mother would deny that she did this at all, let alone that it was intentional.

Oh I'm sure she would.  People who are narcisstic and are gaslighting regularly are usually not at all self aware about .  But the fact that the OP is even asking about this is and based on her posting history, I feel like it's pretty unlikely that is actually what we are talking about.  I get what you're saying because my own parents weren't super emotionally healthy.  

 I can see some of the subtleties of parenting farrar talked about and as a parent of a kid who can be anxious it can be a fine line between discounting her feelings and being a cheerleader for her.  I really try to validate feelings but I doubt I'm perfect at it.   I'm not sure it's super helpful or productive having someone calling you out every time you misspeak to your kid either.  If someone has the ability to self reflect and apologize to your child when they're wrong, I highly doubt they're the parent that regularly and blatantly emotionally manipulates their own children.  

[Drama Llama]

...

Edited October 27, 2021 by BaseballandHockey

[Drama Llama]

...

Edited October 27, 2021 by BaseballandHockey

[gardenmom5]

Dr. Ramani has a long list of videos explaining gaslighting.

she's very good.

[gardenmom5]

1 hour ago, itsheresomewhere said:

Sadly, it was not just one person.  I really  am debating if it was just not knowing the meaning or a new meaning in the area.  

since it sounds like this is someone you respect, I would ask this person to explain *exactly* what they meant.

  .

[Farrar]

1 hour ago, BaseballandHockey said:

I hope that even if I did gaslight my kid it was not as bad as Cuomo.

Did you make a video to air on national TV of yourself acting inappropriately to somehow prove that it's "just a cultural thing" and clearly not a problem your kid is having? Because if not, I think you're good!

[KSera]

2 hours ago, FuzzyCatz said:

As an aside, it's gaslighting to accuse someone of gaslighting if that isn't what is happening. 

 

2 hours ago, Corraleno said:

Either the other person doesn't understand what the word means, or they themselves are gaslighting YOU, to make you question your own interpretation and experience of events.

 

2 hours ago, OH_Homeschooler said:

I feel like it's becoming one of those concepts that people are vaguely familiar with and use inappropriately as it gains in popularity. 

All of these things. I gather it's one of those buzzwords that is especially popular among people on social media right now. I have a young adult kid who very suddenly began using it, but along the lines of what FuzzyCatz above. She will say something was a certain way that very definitely wasn't, insist that it was, and then accuse the other person of gaslighting. In actuality, that makes her the gaslighter. There's mental health at play there, though.

[Farrar]

1 minute ago, KSera said:

 

 

All of these things. I gather it's one of those buzzwords that is especially popular among people on social media right now. I have a young adult kid who very suddenly began using it, but along the lines of what FuzzyCatz above. She will say something was a certain way that very definitely wasn't, insist that it was, and then accuse the other person of gaslighting. In actuality, that makes her the gaslighter. There's mental health at play there, though.

I think that's just not understanding that we all remember and perceive things a little differently. And that's just a sign of immaturity, honestly. Rashomon should be required viewing, I guess.

[kbutton]

2 hours ago, FuzzyCatz said:

No one is a perfect parent, but gaslighting is generally very blatant and intentional.  

I think people can do things by accident that feel like gaslighting to the other person. I have been on the receiving end of this. This is especially true if any time has passed between events--people sometimes really rewrite things in their minds, but they aren't trying to deceive themselves or others. It's just that their feelings in the moment are their feelings, so if they feel differently now about something than they felt when it happened, and you know how they felt when it happened...the resulting fallout (behavior you've changed based on their old feelings, etc.) ends up feeling like gaslighting. ***ETA: I mean "I can see you..." theoretically, not as though I've been analyzing your posts here and see you doing this at the moment. 

2 hours ago, BaseballandHockey said:

No the person is someone who is consistently kind to me, so if they see this dynamic I need to take it seriously,  

I would worry about the terminology less and find out what the person finds concerning. 

I can't see you intentionally hurting someone, but with your experiences in the last few years, I can see you over-thinking or over-responding to a situation (quite logically so!). Perhaps there is something coming out of those sorts of actions that this person is concerned about. You are super thoughtful and on the lookout for the best interests of your kids, so I can only imagine this being something stemming from overprotection, not a character flaw, etc. It might also be something that is truly just fine--your kids have also been through a lot, and this person might not realize how the last few years changed things for your kids and might only be thinking of how it would play out in "ordinary" circumstances.

2 hours ago, Farrar said:

Gaslighting has become such a buzzword in the last few years so I think a lot of people are using it incorrectly.

I think with young kids and parents, there can be a bit of a weird line there. We routinely want to make our kids rework their very perceptions because they often don't understand things in a sophisticated way or get stuck on an impression that actually is wrong. We do need to help them understand when they don't have the whole understanding or have misunderstood because they were young. And that's a rough thing for a kid to hear.

But also, we can't tell them "you're not allowed to feel that way" because that's not fair or productive. And when it crosses from "you have misunderstood these facts" (tough, but good parenting) and "you're not allowed to have that feeling" (not so good parenting) to "you do not actually feel that way" (also not good parenting) then it has maybe crossed the line into gaslighting your own kids. Because the goal is to help them grow their understanding of the world around them. But they are the people who understand how they feel the best - even if we sometimes understand why they feel that way better than they do. And I have seen some parents do that.

Yes, and sometimes we need a third party (counselor, tutor, etc.) to help work through this. One of my kids is sort of suddenly noticing dynamics that should've been apparent to him a long time ago, and he's coming into the middle as if he's in a different part of the story. Third party perspectives are helping.

Edited August 5, 2021 by kbutton

[SanDiegoMom]

My husband will sometimes (very rarely) tell one of my kids something along of the lines of "you don't feel that" or "you aren't really upset".  It's infrequent enough that I haven't said anything about it to him yet, and I have put in extra time with them one on one talking about their feelings and emotions to make sure they are not doubting themselves.  But that is definitely gaslighting -- how on earth can a teen be expected to self regulate if they doubt themselves and what they are feeling in the first place?  

[ktgrok]

In regards to the pandemic, I've felt gaslighted by those who deny the severity of the disease, or dismiss my concerns. 

So if someone is validly concerned about a real thing, and you dismiss it and say that there is no such thing to worry about, there is no disease/the lights are not flickering/etc...that would also fall under that category to me. 

[Slache]

Gaslighting is intentional and malicious. You may have made a mistake, but unless you're trying to cause damage to your kids you didn't gaslight anyone.

[mathnerd]

Not talking about the specific incident that the OP is considering: but generally gaslighting can also be used in a situation where person A insinuates or even accuses person B of doing something that person A did.

For example, I might be stressed and angry and my DH could point out that I am hard to deal with today and I turn around and tell him that he is the one who is hard to deal with today. This is classic gaslighting. I grew up with this kind of stuff: if my life goal were to be a Rock Star and if my parent wanted me to be a Doctor and steered me in that direction deliberately and eventually, if I had zero interest in school due to this, my parent accused me of lacking the ambition or motivation to set goals and achieve them, it causes Cognitive Dissonance in the victim because they had no ambition to get into Medschool at the outset and now it is attributed as their personal goal.

[GracieJane]

Gaslighting requires the perpetrator make a persistent effort to undermine the victim‘s belief in their own experience of reality so that they doubt their sanity. Ironically, the worldview en vogue of „living your own truth“ makes us all gaslighters and gaslightees. 🙂

Edited August 5, 2021 by GracieJane

[Guest]

4 hours ago, Carrie12345 said:

Yup.

Did you state or suggest an untruth as a truth to your kids? Or “correct” their opinion or feelings to your own? If not, they’re probably way off base. 
(I’m not presenting that as a definition, but that’s basically where things wind up.)

Haha, this makes me think of Michelle Duggar “explaining” what Jinger meant by saying “city, please!” when asked where she wants to live. 
“She just meant she wants to be closer to a Walmart…” 

[Tanaqui]

I don't think it's necessary, as at least one person upthread mentioned, for gaslighting to be intentional OR blatant. If nothing else, none of us can readily confirm another person's true thoughts and motivations (and it's entirely possible for somebody to believe their own motivations are different than they really are) and if we insist that gaslighting has to be intentional then we turn discussions of same into derailment and... well, more gaslighting. "You were just gaslighting me when you told me X after telling me Y." "Well! How dare you accuse me of wanting to make you question your sanity! You're the bad guy, not me!"

I think it's simply necessary for somebody to make continual statements or actions that have the effect of causing the other person to question their perception of reality or their understanding of the situation. The first person's motives and intentions are irrelevant, it's the effects that matter.

Not the word "continual". We ALL have some situations where we disagree on the truth of a situation or the details of an event. The human memory is not much like a video recording, and our memories are colored by our feelings. One incident where two people disagree on exactly what happened and who said what to whom is not usually a problem. The problem and the gaslighting occurs when it happens constantly. It'd be very unusual for gaslighting to occur in a vacuum as well - if one person is doing it to another, it's probably part of an entire pattern of harassment and/or emotional abuse.

Have you ever seen Tangled? Mother Gothel engages in a lot of gaslighting as part of her campaign of emotional abuse against Rapunzel. She says mean things about Rapunzel and then swears it was just a joke and *Rapunzel* is the one in the wrong if it upsets her. She throws an enormous histrionic fit about the idea of Rapunzel leaving the tower, then claims that Rapunzel is the one who is upsetting her instead of the other way around. She insults Rapunzel six ways from Sunday - again! - and then says she's only saying it out of love. And all this within the first few minutes of the movie! (All examples here can be found on Youtube if you look up "Mother Knows Best - Tangled". Not the reprise.)

We see gaslighting in Crazy Ex-Girlfriend as well. Rebecca's mother comes to visit, calls her daughter "healthy", immediately clarifies that she means "fat", then says she wasn't insulting her, it's just a neutral observation. She yammers away a mile a minute, then when Rebecca squeezes in four words - "Again, I'm not gay!" - she launches into a rant about how Rebecca is the one who never lets her get a word in edgewise. (This is another song - "Where's the Bathroom - Crazy Ex Girlfriend".)

There's probably a million relevant examples from Everybody Loves Raymond as well, which is why I cannot watch that show.

Edited August 5, 2021 by Tanaqui

[Danae]

1 hour ago, mathnerd said:

Not talking about the specific incident that the OP is considering: but generally gaslighting can also be used in a situation where person A insinuates or even accuses person B of doing something that person A did.

For example, I might be stressed and angry and my DH could point out that I am hard to deal with today and I turn around and tell him that he is the one who is hard to deal with today. This is classic gaslighting. I grew up with this kind of stuff: if my life goal were to be a Rock Star and if my parent wanted me to be a Doctor and steered me in that direction deliberately and eventually, if I had zero interest in school due to this, my parent accused me of lacking the ambition or motivation to set goals and achieve them, it causes Cognitive Dissonance in the victim because they had no ambition to get into Medschool at the outset and now it is attributed as their personal goal.

Those examples are expansions of the concept.  I would not consider them gaslighting.  
 

Gaslighting involves deceit with regard to observable reality.  Disagreement about who’s harder to deal with today is a difference of interpretation.