Children's books that inadvertently teach terrible life lessons

[Clemsondana]

Some of these are definitely unfavorites, although we like the Berenstain Bears and Curious George well enough - not favorites, but not problems.  The tale I always hated was The Princess and the Pea.  I was raised to be...well, not stoic, but not high maintenance, either, and I've tried to teach my kids to roll with what life throws at you.  I'm definitely not a fan of diva-like behavior and always thought that the princess shouldn't be making more work for everybody.  

[Garga]

 

 

Reading this thread makes this so much funnier to watch.

[Terabith]

43 minutes ago, MercyA said:

How can we forget Curious George? Apparently it's a-okay to trick and kidnap a baby monkey, shove him in a sack, and take him from his home and family so he can be displayed in a zoo. Ick.

My parents read these to me all the time when I was little, and it wasn't until long into adulthood that I realized how horrible they were.

Good one!  Yeah, my oldest had Curious George books on cds that they would listen to at naptime, but my younger one had a full fledged phobia of monkeys, so I never read them to the kids.  But it was pretty awful.  He also got taken to jail for calling the fire department by accident.  

I didn't like the Berenstein Bears, and other than the Big Book of Science and Nature, I didn't have any in our house.  I was okay with them reading them at the library or something, but they were mostly in the "stupid and terribly written" more than overtly bad lessons.  

Apparently I imitated Ramona's bad behavior as a kid, but I don't remember that.  

[Tanaqui]

1 hour ago, ClemsonDana said:

Some of these are definitely unfavorites, although we like the Berenstain Bears and Curious George well enough - not favorites, but not problems.  The tale I always hated was The Princess and the Pea.  I was raised to be...well, not stoic, but not high maintenance, either, and I've tried to teach my kids to roll with what life throws at you.  I'm definitely not a fan of diva-like behavior and always thought that the princess shouldn't be making more work for everybody.  

 

I don't think that princess is a "diva" who is failing to adequately "roll with what life throws at you" - she's clearly physically injured by this small pea under mounds of mattresses. She's bruised all over! That's not something she's in control of, and that's a really weird framing.

I do think that it's a very strange choice to use "will she bruise under normal conditions" as preferential selection for somebody whose job description involves popping out a minimum of two children. It's the sort of disability that would seem to preclude childbirth.

[Tanaqui]

Also, after racking my brain, I finally came up with one that nobody has mentioned yet: The Velveteen Rabbit.

As a recap for those who have forgotten, the eponymous Velveteen Rabbit is a little boy's favorite plaything. One old nursery toy tells him that some toys are lucky enough to become "real" if they're loved enough by a child - but not usually the (literally) hard toys, or the fragile toys, or the ones with sharp edges, because children don't love them enough. Then the little boy gets scarlet fever and they burn all his things, but the Velveteen Rabbit manages to fall off the pile and, after lying in the woods awhile, becomes a real rabbit.

I never read it much as a kid, nor read it to the kids, so this is not my personal observation but a friend's observation from a while back: telling children that people who (figuratively) are hard, or fragile, or have sharp edges are not deserving of love is actually rather toxic, and this is probably why so much of her fanfic revolves around people who are hard to love but deserve it anyway.

[katilac]

1 hour ago, square_25 said:

 The Giving Tree is a saaaad book, and I see how it teaches a bad lesson, although personally I never felt like anyone was going to WANT to be the tree, so somehow I'm OK with it.  

But the other choice the book gives you is to be the selfish jerk, so . . . 

16 minutes ago, Tanaqui said:

Also, after racking my brain, I finally came up with one that nobody has mentioned yet: The Velveteen Rabbit.

As a recap for those who have forgotten, the eponymous Velveteen Rabbit is a little boy's favorite plaything. One old nursery toy tells him that some toys are lucky enough to become "real" if they're loved enough by a child - but not usually the (literally) hard toys, or the fragile toys, or the ones with sharp edges, because children don't love them enough. Then the little boy gets scarlet fever and they burn all his things, but the Velveteen Rabbit manages to fall off the pile and, after lying in the woods awhile, becomes a real rabbit.

I never read it much as a kid, nor read it to the kids, so this is not my personal observation but a friend's observation from a while back: telling children that people who (figuratively) are hard, or fragile, or have sharp edges are not deserving of love is actually rather toxic, and this is probably why so much of her fanfic revolves around people who are hard to love but deserve it anyway.

I took it rather more literally, as in you aren't going to go to sleep hugging something with sharp edges or something that might break, but I can see where you're coming from. 

Please clarify if it inspired that theme in general, or if your friend is actually writing Velveteen Rabbit fanfiction. 

[Terabith]

1 hour ago, square_25 said:

How about Green Eggs and Ham? 😄 If you just keep pestering and pestering someone to try something, they'll try it and like it! Yeah... no. I do read it to my kids, because it's fun, but we talk about how that's not the right message. 

Our kids like the Berenstain bears a lot, so those don't bother me 😄 . 

The Giving Tree is a saaaad book, and I see how it teaches a bad lesson, although personally I never felt like anyone was going to WANT to be the tree, so somehow I'm OK with it. 

Oh, I kinda hate the Runaway Bunny! Maybe it's not reasonable, but catching the bunny wherever he tries to run away to (or whatever he turns into) always seems pretty creepy to me. 

YES!  Green Eggs and Ham is fun, but we use it as an opportunity to talk about consent and how no means no!  For sure.  

I have very mixed feelings about The Runaway Bunny, but I always feel weird admitting it.  I love the illustrations, and the character is clearly a very young child, but it does feel extremely controlling and sort of boundary crossing.  I editorialized it a lot.  "If you turn into a fish and swim away from me, I will become a fisherman and stay close to make sure you are safe, because I love you, but everyone needs space sometimes, even mommies and daddies and kids."  

 

[Terabith]

The Giving Tree seriously just needs to lay down some boundaries.  Like, he can love the boy and not allow himself to be destroyed by the boy's need.  

[kiwik]

I don't know the giving tree and the only berenstin bear books I have was the bike lesson (or. Is that not) which I liked.  A lot of books for older kids which are pretty bad but a lot of it goes over the kid's head.  I liked Ping as a kid but have never had a copy to read to the kids.

[Tanaqui]

Quote

 

Please clarify if it inspired that theme in general, or if your friend is actually writing Velveteen Rabbit fanfiction. 

 

 

The first, though it could be both.

[Elizabeth86]

9 hours ago, MercyA said:

How can we forget Curious George? Apparently it's a-okay to trick and kidnap a baby monkey, shove him in a sack, and take him from his home and family so he can be displayed in a zoo. Ick.

My parents read these to me all the time when I was little, and it wasn't until long into adulthood that I realized how horrible they were.

Haha, I know.  I just read this to my 2 and 4 year old last night and she wanted to know why he was stuffed in a sack and taken away.  She also wanted to know how the man new he'd be happy at a zoo.  Some books just don't age well.

[Elizabeth86]

13 hours ago, EmseB said:

Ah, I guess I think of livestock getting corralled, swatted, caged, ridden, or eaten, etc., not infrequently

I mean, I assume the ducks in this situation would be raised for food, but I don't take my kids extrapolating that to their fate either. 😂

Same here.  You can sit down and talk to a duck and expect him to come back when called, right? No problem with Ping.

[Elizabeth86]

13 hours ago, Ktgrok said:

yes! I loved the giving tree as a kid. Grew up to end up in a codependent relationship. Got out of it. Reread the book. Was horrified!

and I can't stand the rainbow fish one, but don't remember why. 

Oh no. I must reread the giving tree.  I didn't realize there was anything wrong with it.

[Elizabeth86]

IDK about horrible life lessons, but my kids were horrified that the cats ate each other all up in Millions of Cats.

Edited August 4, 2020 by Elizabeth86
I can't multitask.

[Elizabeth86]

8 hours ago, square_25 said:

How about Green Eggs and Ham? 😄 If you just keep pestering and pestering someone to try something, they'll try it and like it! Yeah... no. I do read it to my kids, because it's fun, but we talk about how that's not the right message. 

Our kids like the Berenstain bears a lot, so those don't bother me 😄 . 

The Giving Tree is a saaaad book, and I see how it teaches a bad lesson, although personally I never felt like anyone was going to WANT to be the tree, so somehow I'm OK with it. 

Oh, I kinda hate the Runaway Bunny! Maybe it's not reasonable, but catching the bunny wherever he tries to run away to (or whatever he turns into) always seems pretty creepy to me. 

Really? I never thought of the runaway bunny as creepy? I just thought it was sweet that no matter what the little bunny chose to or be, his Mama would be there for him.  Maybe I'm a crazy Mama bunny to relate to this story so much.😂

[Condessa]

11 hours ago, Lori D. said:

The Ping book reminds me of DH talking about one teacher he had at his elementary grade parochial school. About 4th grade--so while kids may be goofy and spacey at times, you're not going to have vicious or intentionally malicious kids--the teacher apparently took a dislike to one boy (not DH), and *every single day* at the end of class she would say: "(Kid name), come up front for your paddling." Whether the poor kid had done anything bad or not! (Seriously, what could a 4th grader ever do that is paddle-worthy?!) And he had to bend over and get swatted with a wooden paddle every.single.day.all.year.long. I can't even imagine how that kind of abuse must have psychologically scarred that poor kid, not to mention completely turning him off of EVER wanting to learn anything due to the horrible association with school... 😵😢

 

Sorry, I have no issue with your main point, but this bolded line—there are plenty of vicious and intentionally malicious 4th graders.  Worst school year of my childhood.

Which is related to my pet peeve in kid’s books.  The children’s stories that most drive me nuts are the ones where a character is bullied/ostracized, but eventually goes on to “earn” the respect of the others through some great or heroic action, and then the others are sorry and accepting of their former victim.  This theme is ubiquitous in children’s stories, like Lambert the Sheepish Lion and Rudolph the Red-Nosed Reindeer.  

Where are the books that teach that the victim’s self-worth is innate, that they do not need to prove or earn anything from their bullies, and the opinions of the bullies are worthless, at the end as well as the beginning?  People should earn your respect by treating others with respect before their opinion matters to you.  Dh finds it amusing that I go over this with the kids again every Christmas when Rudolph comes up, but the entirely wrong message about bullies is pushed on kids so much.

Edited August 2, 2020 by Michelle Conde

[historically accurate]

10 hours ago, Corraleno said:

N is for Neville, who died of ennui...

I love Edward Gorey, and my DS loved that book as a kid, especially Neville — the illustration is so perfect. When he was really bored as a kid he would say "I'm dying of ennui" and I'd say "Ok Neville" lol. 

 

We never had this book, but whenever my kids would whine, "I'm boooooooooorrrrrrrreeeeedddd.", one of us parents would run over, slap a hand on their forehead, and call out, "Oh, no, she's got the ennui. Daddy, she's got the ennui, what do we do?" And the other parent says, "welp, I hope it's not a fatal case of the ennui! I've heard that it's going around." Usually jolted them out of the drama.

[KungFuPanda]

My daughter’s World History teacher brought in some Indian children’s stories he grew up with. They had shockingly horrible lessons like “Stick to your own kind.” The kids were a bit stunned. 

[Elizabeth86]

56 minutes ago, square_25 said:

It might just be me!! 

I might just be me too!! I'm a bit of a helicopter mom according to my dh and my mom was worse than me.  Who knows?

[purpleowl]

The ennui thing is absolutely cracking me up. 🤣 I'd never heard of that book before. 

 

One that I really despise is Leo the Late Bloomer. I don't have a problem with "it's okay to figure things out later than other people." I do have a problem with "and one day, he suddenly had complete competence in every single area!" 

[bolt.]

1 hour ago, Michelle Conde said:

 

Sorry, I have no issue with your main point, but this bolded line—there are plenty of vicious and intentionally malicious 4th graders.  Worst school year of my childhood.

Which is related to my pet peeve in kid’s books.  The children’s stories that most drive me nuts are the ones where a character is bullied/ostracized, but eventually goes on to “earn” the respect of the others through some great or heroic action, and then the others are sorry and accepting of their former victim.  This theme is ubiquitous in children’s stories, like Lambert the Sheepish Lion and Rudolph the Red-Nosed Reindeer.  

Where are the books that teach that the victim’s self-worth is innate, that they do not need to prove or earn anything from their bullies, and the opinions of the bullies are worthless, at the end as well as the beginning?  People should earn your respect by treating others with respect before their opinion matters to you.  Dh finds it amusing that I go over this with the kids again every Christmas when Rudolph comes up, but the entirely wrong message about bullies is pushed on kids so much.

I too know that youngsters, like 4th graders, can do a lot of damage to one another. I think the point of not identifying them as "vicious and intentionally malicious" at such a young age is also important.

It can be healthy to view one's former tormentors as young and stupid: too under-developed to have yet grasped empathy or the humanity of other people... playing ineptly and selfishly at power and superiority without really grasping what that does to their targets... following a flow of group behaviour without any sense that there is something wrong with the dynamic. These ideas accurately describe the inner lives of little kids who are acting out. At least, it's a more apt description than assigning them fully fledged cognitive motives like cruelty or vicious intent.

The accuracy of these thoughts doesn't mitigate the damage done, of course. Just like a little kid who doesn't understand matches can burn down a house, a little bully can surely break the spirit of their victim without really grasping the significance of what they have done. It's just a perspective that can help with "moving on". It can be good to remember that it's not wise to expect too much grown up behavior out of kids who are still within their first decade of life.

[bolt.]

14 minutes ago, square_25 said:

Oh, there are absolutely kids that age that actively like hurting each other and are malicious. I don't think we do anyone any favors by pretending they don't exist. I don't think that's the average kid, I don't think that was likely to apply to the kid in the anecdote, but they exist. Fledgling sociopaths, you know 😉 . We have a kid like that around here... she causes pain to other kids for kicks. I don't know what to call that behavior but cruelty... she may figure out intellectually that this impulse is immoral as she grows up, but I don't see what the point of acting like it's just normal childish hijinks, either. 

Neither "fledgling sociopaths" nor full adult sociopaths truly grasp what their actions do to their targets. They are incapable of grasping the reality of the inner lives of their targets. Malice requires intent, and intent require comprehension.

The kid you are talking about causes pain to other kids because she gets a kick out of their *reaction* -- you could call her a action-seeker who lacks empathic capacity right now. She fails to truly see any other elements of the situation other than the funny reaction. (You can think of this as similar to the way you feel when watching a movie where people get hurt in the course of your entertainment: you know there's no harm, so you aren't thinking about the harm, you're just enjoying the show. She can't understand the harm, so she's not thinking about the harm, she's thinking about the show.) At least that's how I'd expect someone who loves her to characterize her. Also, it's how a person who might be able to help treat her would describe her personal challenges. Also, neither of them would blame her for being disabled in this brain function, nor consider her blame-worthy for the ways she accidentally impacts the people around her so negatively. You can call that "cruel" as accurately as you could blame any other disabled child for allowing the consiquences of their disability to impact the world.

So, no, that's not normal childish hijinks, it's a psycological condition that needs medical care or a developmental delay that needs attention. Also, the people around her need and deserve protection from her. But it's also not malice or vice. It's bad luck and the brokenness of the world. It's healed with science and care -- not by pretending that little kids ask for the problems they are born with.

Edited August 2, 2020 by bolt.

[MercyA]

55 minutes ago, square_25 said:

Oh, there are absolutely kids that age that actively like hurting each other and are malicious. I don't think we do anyone any favors by pretending they don't exist. I don't think that's the average kid, I don't think that was likely to apply to the kid in the anecdote, but they exist. Fledgling sociopaths, you know 😉 . We have a kid like that around here... she causes pain to other kids for kicks. I don't know what to call that behavior but cruelty... she may figure out intellectually that this impulse is immoral as she grows up, but I don't see what the point of acting like it's just normal childish hijinks, either. 

Yes. I know a child who delights in torturing animals. 😞  My daughter has tried to rescue frogs from him before. (She knows to get me next time and I will put a stop to it.) We do not trust him. 

Causing physical harm is, I think, considered more of a psychopathic trait than a sociopathic one. 

[bolt.]

42 minutes ago, square_25 said:

I guess it depends how you define malice. I do agree that it's a psychological condition, but last I checked, it was one that was pretty untreatable, and kids like this did best with very firm rules as opposed to a lot of understanding. Do people have any clue what to do with people with impaired empathy that enjoy hurting other people? 

Also, I think you're about to define away cruelty. Of course someone who enjoys hurting someone else doesn't fully appreciate the pain they are causing, in the sense that they don't feel it themselves. But NO ONE who felt it themselves would cause pain, so then there's no such thing as a cruel impulse. And yet they may very well be aware that the other kid will seem hurt and upset and that if the same thing was done to them, it would be awful. So they are only unaware in the very deepest sense of not having empathy. 

I don't think there are a lot of solutions for empathy impairment right now. I think it helps to have the right definition (empathy as a cognitive function) rather than a values based judgement as our starting point for both adults and children. These cruel-seeming behaviours do have a cause, but it's not, "I like other people's pain." -- It's "I like (something about it) when other people experience pain." Finding out what the 'something' is and viewing it without condemnation seems like a critical first step.

I know that "they" know that a punitive environment in childhood increases the malignancy of sociopathy, so a non-punitive approach to parenting seems to be the better option. (Non-punitive does not mean a lack of rules, it means enforcing the rules through direct enforcement and other techniques instead of applying post-event punishments in an effort to shift voluntary behaviour.) This means that a potential sociopath raised punitively might become a criminal while one raised less punitively might become something more like an ambitious CEO or a steriotypical insensitive-loner-scientist.

When young enough, all kids lack empathy and behave amorally. So all parents have the task of helping them to grow out of that worldview in a healthy way... it's just more challenging for some families than it is for others. To some degree, non-judgmental direct instruction that is very concrete can be helpful when dealing with this as a normal stage of development. ("Danny is a person. I care about Danny's body. Danny's arm felt hurt when you pinched it. I don't want Danny to have a hurting arm. Hurting Danny's body is not okay. I don't want you to use your hands for hurting people's bodies.") I don't know if it can apply later.

There are also some clinical approaches, I think.

[Lori D.]

12 hours ago, MercyA said:

How can we forget Curious George? Apparently it's a-okay to trick and kidnap a baby monkey, shove him in a sack, and take him from his home and family so he can be displayed in a zoo. Ick.

My parents read these to me all the time when I was little, and it wasn't until long into adulthood that I realized how horrible they were.

And the colonialism of Babar the Elephant books...

[Lori D.]

1 hour ago, square_25 said:

Hah, don't get me started on Russian fairy tales. Half of them involve the idiot son who won't get off the stove (I guess people sat on stoves to keep warm??) ...

I was reading some adult Russian-based fairytale fantasy (The Bear and the Nightingale trilogy) and they kept referring to sleeping on the stove, so I figured there must be some sort of shelf or niche above the stove as a warm place to sleep. I finally went looking for an image and found this, in case it helps anyone else visualize. 😉 Looks like boys in upper right corner are "sleeping on the stove", and baby is about to be put to bed in a hammock-like cradle in front of the stove. (Most of all, I'm digging granny babushka's tall cap in this picture 😂 )

 

[Condessa]

1 hour ago, bolt. said:

It can be healthy to view one's former tormentors as young and stupid: too under-developed to have yet grasped empathy or the humanity of other people... playing ineptly and selfishly at power and superiority without really grasping what that does to their targets... following a flow of group behaviour without any sense that there is something wrong with the dynamic. These ideas accurately describe the inner lives of little kids who are acting out. At least, it's a more apt description than assigning them fully fledged cognitive motives like cruelty or vicious intent.

 

They were young and stupid, but that doesn’t mean they weren’t also vicious and cruel.  “Following the flow of group behavior” describes many of them, but not the ringleaders.  The vast majority of nine and ten-year-old children have an understanding that others experience pain just like they do; in normal childhood development this occurs by about seven or eight at the latest.  Bullying behavior is far more common than individuals lacking this essential cognitive development at this age.  Hence, most bullies this age understand that their victims feel pain, but choose that behavior anyway.  This is cruel.

 I do not hold any anger for them.  They were stupid children making bad decisions, and we all make bad decisions sometimes, especially when we are young and lacking guidance.  I even know now about the pain that one of my worst tormentors was going through in her family life at that time, that motivated her to take out her anger on a convenient target.  But having sympathy and understanding for them does not mean that their actions weren’t vicious and cruel.

ETA:  I do look back on the adults at that school with frustration and complete incredulity at the things they allowed to go on right under their noses.  I loved my teachers there as a child, but as an adult I have to wonder what on earth was wrong with those people.

Edited August 2, 2020 by Michelle Conde

[73349]

"The Rainbow Fish" is the title that came to mind when I saw the thread title.

16 hours ago, Robin M said:

My kiddo took everything literally so that prayer went quietly away.   Okay, let's make up our own.  

 Even Rock a Bye baby became a problem. I never learned the last two verses so all I remember was 

Rock-a-bye, baby, in the tree top
When the wind blows the cradle will rock
When the bough breaks the cradle will fall
Down will come baby, cradle and all.

Um, no. 

I once saw another verse in a nursery rhyme book, so I used only this one:

"Rock-a-bye, baby,
Thy cradle is green.
Daddy's your king,
and Mommy's your queen.
Aunt ________'s a lady who wears a gold ring,
And you'll be a drummer who drums for the king."

Funny:  DH is now working from home, and his office next to DS's room. DS has drum lessons over Zoom right in the middle of every Monday afternoon. Daddy gets to work with drum beats from Imagine Dragons et al. in the background.

 

[Condessa]

26 minutes ago, square_25 said:

DH has experiences like this from childhood. He also feels incredulous about the teachers as an adult, and he never felt compelled to excuse the offenders, even though some of them also had tragic home lives. 

For the record, he says the people going along with peer pressure mostly grew up into functional adults, but the kids who seemed to really enjoy hurting others never did. They wound up in and out of jail and abused lots of people along the way. 

 

I hope that they improved as they grew.  The last time I saw one of them, she was a very young single mom of two, working as a grocery store cashier.  I hope she has managed better for her kids than she received.

[lmrich]

These are not bad books, but we had to take Junie B. Jones away from our first grader since she started turning into Junie B. Jones. It got obnoxious!

[Terabith]

9 minutes ago, lmrich said:

These are not bad books, but we had to take Junie B. Jones away from our first grader since she started turning into Junie B. Jones. It got obnoxious!

Yeah, I refused to allow Junie into our house.  The grammar drove me nuts, and the age kid that it's marketed for is precisely the age when kids are most likely to emulate her.  

[historically accurate]

13 minutes ago, lmrich said:

These are not bad books, but we had to take Junie B. Jones away from our first grader since she started turning into Junie B. Jones. It got obnoxious!

Junie wasn't allowed to be purchased here - I allowed them to be checked out of the library only once (no rereading - I just steered them to a different series if they asked). Annoying child that Junie, and I couldn't get past the grammar and spelling. 

[Jenny in Florida]

12 hours ago, Tanaqui said:

Also, after racking my brain, I finally came up with one that nobody has mentioned yet: The Velveteen Rabbit.

As a recap for those who have forgotten, the eponymous Velveteen Rabbit is a little boy's favorite plaything. One old nursery toy tells him that some toys are lucky enough to become "real" if they're loved enough by a child - but not usually the (literally) hard toys, or the fragile toys, or the ones with sharp edges, because children don't love them enough. Then the little boy gets scarlet fever and they burn all his things, but the Velveteen Rabbit manages to fall off the pile and, after lying in the woods awhile, becomes a real rabbit.

I never read it much as a kid, nor read it to the kids, so this is not my personal observation but a friend's observation from a while back: telling children that people who (figuratively) are hard, or fragile, or have sharp edges are not deserving of love is actually rather toxic, and this is probably why so much of her fanfic revolves around people who are hard to love but deserve it anyway.

 

You beat me to it! I was literally scrolling down to the end of the thread so I could post about that book. 

[Lori D.]

35 minutes ago, Margaret in CO said:

Oh, yes there are vicious and intentionally malicious kids in 4th grade! The last year I taught in the ps, one particular 4th grader s*xually molested my special needs kids....

So sorry to hear about this horrible event and child with severe issues.

But... it still doesn't justify my DH's real life circumstance that the nun-teacher who should never have been working with children paddled DH's fellow 4th grade boy classmate every single day for NO behavioral or attitude reasons whatsoever. (Not that she should paddled ANY children, to begin with...)

[Condessa]

7 minutes ago, Lori D. said:

So sorry to hear about this horrible event and child with severe issues.

But... it still doesn't justify my DH's real life circumstance that the nun-teacher who should never have been working with children paddled DH's fellow 4th grade boy classmate every single day for NO behavioral or attitude reasons whatsoever. (Not that she should paddled ANY children, to begin with...)

 

You are 100% right.

[Lori D.]

5 hours ago, Michelle Conde said:

Sorry, I have no issue with your main point, but this bolded line—there are plenty of vicious and intentionally malicious 4th graders.  Worst school year of my childhood.

It was 6th grade when I was in public school. I was scarred into adulthood by a pair of bullying girls for the entire 6th grade. It wasn't until I was an adult and became a Christian that I had the similar epiphany that you mentioned upthread -- that "hurting people hurt other people out of their own hurt". That helped a lot with being able to forgive them and to heal. I hope they were able to find healing, too, and not pass it on to their own children.

 Guess the age for becoming a terrorizing bully has slipped downwards since I was a kid... 😭

Edited August 2, 2020 by Lori D.

[Lori D.]

5 hours ago, beckyjo said:

We never had this book, but whenever my kids would whine, "I'm boooooooooorrrrrrrreeeeedddd.", one of us parents would run over, slap a hand on their forehead, and call out, "Oh, no, she's got the ennui. Daddy, she's got the ennui, what do we do?" And the other parent says, "welp, I hope it's not a fatal case of the ennui! I've heard that it's going around." Usually jolted them out of the drama.

Oh no! She's got a fever! And the only prescription is more cowbell!
 

 

[Junie]

1 hour ago, Terabith said:

Yeah, I refused to allow Junie into our house.  The grammar drove me nuts, and the age kid that it's marketed for is precisely the age when kids are most likely to emulate her.  

 

1 hour ago, beckyjo said:

Junie wasn't allowed to be purchased here - I allowed them to be checked out of the library only once (no rereading - I just steered them to a different series if they asked). Annoying child that Junie, and I couldn't get past the grammar and spelling. 

Just to clarify, I am not that Junie. 😉  And we don't read the Junie B. Jones books here either.

[Terabith]

10 minutes ago, Junie said:

 

Just to clarify, I am not that Junie. 😉  And we don't read the Junie B. Jones books here either.

My bad.  You would be welcome in our house.  You know, if there wasn't a pandemic.  

[Junie]

1 hour ago, Terabith said:

My bad.  You would be welcome in our house.  You know, if there wasn't a pandemic.  

Thank you! :)

[Tanaqui]

Quote

I think I once heard the “if I should die before I wake” prayer originated in the time of the Great Plague, like Ring Around the Rosey, when death was a close and frequent happening in a child’s life. No doubt we find it more shocking in our healthier modern times, but perhaps back then such a nightly prayer was a comfort? We didn’t use it as a bedtime prayer, but it’s one of those rhymes kids pick up from their peers. 

 

Ring Around the Rosie does *not* originate during the time of the Great Plague, and has nothing to do with it.

Now I Lay Me originates from the 18th century, also well past the Great Plague.

[Tanaqui]

Coincidentally, somebody just sent me this link: https://www.neatorama.com/2020/08/02/An-Alternate-Ending-for-iThe-Giving-Treei/

I haven't actually looked at it yet, so I don't know if these alternate endings are really good.

[bevwdi]

7 hours ago, Seasider too said:

For children’s books, Love You Forever tops my creepy list. 

 

Me too. I have a really hard time getting past the stalker aspect of it. At least I did until I read this article and at least now I can appreciate what its intentions were, even though I don't feel like it got there.

[Corraleno]

39 minutes ago, Tanaqui said:

Coincidentally, somebody just sent me this link: https://www.neatorama.com/2020/08/02/An-Alternate-Ending-for-iThe-Giving-Treei/

I haven't actually looked at it yet, so I don't know if these alternate endings are really good.

I was just going to post that! The ending is much better; they change the last several pages, and this is the very last page:

[*****]

Boy, I'm feeling a bit 'out of the loop'!  Most of the books you all mention were favorites of my children growing up. It never occured to me that there was anything wrong with them.  (Except Berenstein Bears, Papa was always made to be a dumb dad.)  

The Giving Tree-this was the 1st book my oldest was able to read on her own, so that was special.  I can see now what everyone means about setting boundaries.  Or is it because we have so many narcissists in society now (and other social pathologies), that we are more aware for our need to set boundaries?!

We loved the colors and idea in Rainbow Fish. Although I see your point, the idea of sharing was a good one. 

And yes, when you look at so many nursery rhymes, some were a bit weird.  

Interesting topic, especially when I think of how many of these were beloved books read over and over by teachers to young children, Love you Forever included. Maybe you all are over-thinking these?  

The ones I think are creepy are so many of the scholastic book fair ones sold in the last 15 years or so.   Scholastic books got so dark. I don't even know names as I wouldn't give them my time or money. (chapter books for youngsters on up).  But seriously, when I think of it, these are much worse than the ones you all  mention.  A lot of books at the library have gotten dark.  They have no hope in them.

[littlebug42]

On 8/2/2020 at 1:32 AM, Tanaqui said:

Also, after racking my brain, I finally came up with one that nobody has mentioned yet: The Velveteen Rabbit.

As a recap for those who have forgotten, the eponymous Velveteen Rabbit is a little boy's favorite plaything. One old nursery toy tells him that some toys are lucky enough to become "real" if they're loved enough by a child - but not usually the (literally) hard toys, or the fragile toys, or the ones with sharp edges, because children don't love them enough. Then the little boy gets scarlet fever and they burn all his things, but the Velveteen Rabbit manages to fall off the pile and, after lying in the woods awhile, becomes a real rabbit.

I never read it much as a kid, nor read it to the kids, so this is not my personal observation but a friend's observation from a while back: telling children that people who (figuratively) are hard, or fragile, or have sharp edges are not deserving of love is actually rather toxic, and this is probably why so much of her fanfic revolves around people who are hard to love but deserve it anyway.

 

My eldest was so traumatized by the Velveteen Rabbit and to this day, about 13 years later, still has upsetting memories of it.  She wouldn't let her little sister read it.  I think she holds a grudge that I even allowed it in the house.  

[Tanaqui]

Quote

The ones I think are creepy are so many of the scholastic book fair ones sold in the last 15 years or so.   Scholastic books got so dark. I don't even know names as I wouldn't give them my time or money. (chapter books for youngsters on up).  But seriously, when I think of it, these are much worse than the ones you all  mention.  A lot of books at the library have gotten dark.  They have no hope in them.

 

I think you're gonna have to name names here, because I don't know of many books for kids with "no hope in them".

[Elizabeth86]

I thought of a couple more that we find odd.  George and Martha.  The hippo books. In one of the short stories George has a bad habit of peeking in windows and he peeks at Martha in the bathtub.  Dh and I were like WTF?? Of course George learned his lesson, but still, eww.

This one is a bit of a stretch, but Blueberries for Sal. Does this make anyone else worry about being safe around bears. This book terrified my 4 year old.  We had a bear at our house last year and she became terrified of bears and when we read this, she lost it.  She was not ok will little Sal being so close to mother bear.  Like dang lady, keep up with your kid, kwim?  Like I said, a bit of a stretch, but I'm bored and this post has challenged me to think of more. Feel free to ignore me. 😂 So yeah, not really good life lessons I guess.  She got her blueberries to can for winter though. 😄

 

Edited August 4, 2020 by Elizabeth86

[Elizabeth86]

On 8/3/2020 at 1:10 AM, ***** said:

Boy, I'm feeling a bit 'out of the loop'!  Most of the books you all mention were favorites of my children growing up. It never occured to me that there was anything wrong with them.  (Except Berenstein Bears, Papa was always made to be a dumb dad.)  

The Giving Tree-this was the 1st book my oldest was able to read on her own, so that was special.  I can see now what everyone means about setting boundaries.  Or is it because we have so many narcissists in society now (and other social pathologies), that we are more aware for our need to set boundaries?!

We loved the colors and idea in Rainbow Fish. Although I see your point, the idea of sharing was a good one. 

And yes, when you look at so many nursery rhymes, some were a bit weird.  

Interesting topic, especially when I think of how many of these were beloved books read over and over by teachers to young children, Love you Forever included. Maybe you all are over-thinking these?  

The ones I think are creepy are so many of the scholastic book fair ones sold in the last 15 years or so.   Scholastic books got so dark. I don't even know names as I wouldn't give them my time or money. (chapter books for youngsters on up).  But seriously, when I think of it, these are much worse than the ones you all  mention.  A lot of books at the library have gotten dark.  They have no hope in them.

Oh I agree, totally overthinking here.  Honestly though, what else does anyone have to do these days?

[dirty ethel rackham]

On 8/1/2020 at 6:04 PM, beckyjo said:

Five in a Row uses The Story of Ping, which teaches get in line quickly or get smacked. We didn't do that book when we did the curriculum. 

My oldest was aghast that Ping was hit.  He told me he didn't want to read that book because "hitting was wrong." It really didn't matter than Ping was an animal because the book anthropomorphizes the animals for children to identify with them, so it totally makes sense that they would see being hit as something that could happen to them.  

My family loved "Love You Forever".  My kids never saw the mom's behavior to her adult son as being creepy because they were still little enough that being an adult without a mommy was a scary thought.  As they got older, they saw it as hyperbole and symbolism for how much a parent loves a child;  they didn't take the story literally.  For me, I loved it because it identified how much I wanted to keep my children close and that part of me that wanted to stop time before they grew up as well as how much I yearned for us to stay connected in their adult years.  My oldest is in grad school across the country and just doesn't need as much connection as I crave.  We are estranged from our middle child due to mental illness.  It has been a struggle on my part to not smother/overwhelm my youngest child with all that pent-up maternal love and let her establish the boundaries she needs. 

Funny related story: When dd was starting to think about colleges, I would joke that I would move into the dorms with her because I would miss her so much.  She told me (in the same tongue-in-cheek tone) that I needed to get my own life and not take Love You Forever literally.  That is when I made an appointment at our local community college to get some future direction (and get my own life.)  And I am now almost half-way through my sonography program.