The conspiracy theory videos

[PrincessMommy]

@kbutton  thanks for those links... I think the Christianity Today article will be more helpful than the drs. refuting every particular conspiracy because  it speaks directly to Christians from a Christian POV.  

 

[PrincessMommy]

3 minutes ago, Robin M said:

Wow. Sorry to hear that. 

It's really surprised me with some people who I consider smart and not easily fooled.  Sigh.  I certainly don't mind people questioning everything they hear, but I think some of my friends have unwittingly ended up in an Echo chamber.  

[KungFuPanda]

27 minutes ago, PrincessMommy said:

I did post that one to her.  She dismissed it as condescending.  🙄

I tried just going after one point and not trying to convince her of anything.

Me:  She said there are no vaccines for RNA viruses.

Cousin:  Yes she did! It's true!

Me:  So you believe polio, rabies, and measles don't have effective vaccines?

Cousin :: crickets ::

 

I consider no answer better than a reply that she DID believe this.  It's a bit of a Trojan Horse attack. I like to think it's a seed planted. People seem more receptive to facts served up one at a time.  

[Shoeless]

The people that run the local homeschool group call anyone who wears a mask a "baby with a pacifier".  (But they also advertise for friends who sell masks. They are a-ok with profiting off this).  They also have some weird theory that their immune systems have been damaged by staying home and the only remedy for this is to expose themselves to as many germs as possible as quickly as possible. They are encouraging people to stop washing their hands.

They have taken every recommendation and opted to do the exact opposite. If anyone gets sick? Well, it's God's will. If they don't get sick? Proof this is a hoax. 

 

[SquirrellyMama]

1 hour ago, PrincessMommy said:

@kbutton  thanks for those links... I think the Christianity Today article will be more helpful than the drs. refuting every particular conspiracy because  it speaks directly to Christians from a Christian POV.  

 

Unfortunately, when I've seen CT  articles linked in a way to hopefully get through to Christians, they use it as proof that CT  is losing their grip on Christianity. The last article I saw put on FB was trying to get Christians to realize just how bad Trump is. Comments were about how CT was getting so liberal.

Kelly

[Guest]

26 minutes ago, MissLemon said:

The people that run the local homeschool group call anyone who wears a mask a "baby with a pacifier".  (But they also advertise for friends who sell masks. They are a-ok with profiting off this).  They also have some weird theory that their immune systems have been damaged by staying home and the only remedy for this is to expose themselves to as many germs as possible as quickly as possible. They are encouraging people to stop washing their hands.

They have taken every recommendation and opted to do the exact opposite. If anyone gets sick? Well, it's God's will. If they don't get sick? Proof this is a hoax. 

 

There is an element of this thinking in the “Plandemic” video. 

[Shoeless]

11 minutes ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

Stop washing their hands???? 

I would not go anywhere near those people. 

 

Don't worry, we won't be.  I can't be around people that would like to upend Semmelweis' germ theory/hand washing recommendations and set us back to the health standards of the 19th century.  That's madness. Grade A, unadulterated madness.    We're done with those folks.  

I'd been questioning the hygiene standards of some of the families within this group, so I'm glad (?) to have them spell it out so clearly at last.        

 

[mom2scouts]

3 hours ago, PrincessMommy said:

certainly not all my conservative friends/family are buying into conspiracies.. just some.. but I don't see it with my liberal friends at all. Of course I have a very small friends list on FB.  

Oddly enough, it's both my very left leaning friends and my very right leaning friends who are posting that Plandemic video. So weird.

[Frances]

25 minutes ago, mom2scouts said:

Oddly enough, it's both my very left leaning friends and my very right leaning friends who are posting that Plandemic video. So weird.

The pandemic is resulting in some very interesting intersection of extremists on both sides. 
 

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/02/us/anti-vaxxers-coronavirus-protests.html

 

[SquirrellyMama]

58 minutes ago, mom2scouts said:

Oddly enough, it's both my very left leaning friends and my very right leaning friends who are posting that Plandemic video. So weird.

It is weird that they are both posting the same video, but I often find my very left and very right leaning friends are similar. Not usually similar in beliefs, but very much so in personality. 

Kelly

[SquirrellyMama]

Not a video, but something a FB friend posted today. And, I am 100% sure he did not do any research as it says to do.

1. I don't wear a facemask because...It's the perfect breeding ground for bacteria that can end up in your mouth and down into your lungs.

2. I don't wear gloves because...I have enough brains to realize I'd have to change gloves everytime I touched something else, otherwise it's just cross contamination with the same gloves...

3. I do social distancing because...I respect others personal space, but not because I'm afraid of my fellow Americans or neighbors.

4. I don't get the flu vaccine because...(in regards to coronavirus) I don't want to increase my chances of getting an upper respiratory illness including 4 strains of coronavirus by 36%.

5. I won't get tested even if I show symptoms because...I already know they will label it Covid19 without an actual test and I'll be added to the jaded numbers increasing panic over something I may or may not truly have...but rest assured I have brains enough to stay home and away from people when sick or have symptoms of being sick, now or any other time.

6. I wash my hands with soap and water because...well, that's just common sense.

7. I WILL NOT GET THE VACCINE! The gov has never successfully mandated a vaccine and I'll be damned if they make me put something in my body, that was created in less than 2 weeks of this "outbreak". I'm not a sheep and will not be manipulated by the gov into thinking they have our best interest.

8. I will not live in fear, if you want to stay in your house and never go out because you are "doing the right thing" that's fine, that's you. But I'm not going to let the media scare me into thinking this is mass panic. That's what they want, to shut this country down and they're doing it right in front of your face. I will continue to go out and support local businesses as much as possible.

Start researching...you have all the time in the world. Turn off the news and start researching from sources that have NO financial gain or conflict of interest...you will learn quite a bit, and you will realize you've been lied to and manipulated.
But I DO RESPECT others that don't feel the same way!!!! I wear a mask & gloves where it may help others feel safe!!

*copied and pasted, feel free to do the same!*

[mom2scouts]

One of my friends announced on Facebook today that she has Covid-19 and that it "is NOT fun." DS called for Mother's Day and he said his friend's mother was recovering from Covid-19 and the friend's brothers now have it. My sister's co-worker lost her 56 year old father to Covid and another young woman I know is recovering. Meanwhile, Facebook is full of people who think it's all just a ploy to control us. One group from a nearby city just thinks anyone who wears a mask is just a "sheep" who should "hide in their house". Yes, it sucks and we've lost a lot this year already, but I just can't bear such ignorance.

[Guest]

38 minutes ago, SquirrellyMama said:

8. I will not live in fear, if you want to stay in your house and never go out because you are "doing the right thing" that's fine, that's you. But I'm not going to let the media scare me into thinking this is mass panic. That's what they want, to shut this country down and they're doing it right in front of your face. I will continue to go out and support local businesses as much as possible.

This is a part of the narrative I don’t understand. I don’t understand who this extremely-powerful “they” is who wants the economy to tank and wants economic exchange to grind to a halt. I mean, that just doesn’t meet any goal that I can see from either political party, nor people who don’t give a flying flea about politics at all, not to mention, as a PANdemic, I don’t know who the “they” would be that could somehow orchestrate the extreme impact on economic activity throughout the entire world. 

 

[kbutton]

4 hours ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

We're leaving our church over this. I'd had issues before and they're all blown up since COVID. The anti-vaxxers are condescendingly telling those who are "too scared" to just stay home. They seem not to understand how viruses work. Then there's the claim that Christians shouldn't have fear. Interesting given that they are "too scared" to get vaccinations. 

The people sucked into the conspiracy theory videos didn't just start with this one. The well has been primed by years of misleading videos and articles from highly biased news sources. It fed right into a world-view that they had already, that they're being persecuted by the "elites." 

I'm noting who is saying what because I am worried I'm going to have to bring this up to leadership. I love our church. It's on the large side, so not a monolith. But if a big subset of people really believe this, I feel like there needs to be some kind of stand for actual truth and factual information. 

3 hours ago, MissLemon said:

The people that run the local homeschool group call anyone who wears a mask a "baby with a pacifier".  (But they also advertise for friends who sell masks. They are a-ok with profiting off this).  They also have some weird theory that their immune systems have been damaged by staying home and the only remedy for this is to expose themselves to as many germs as possible as quickly as possible. They are encouraging people to stop washing their hands.

They have taken every recommendation and opted to do the exact opposite. If anyone gets sick? Well, it's God's will. If they don't get sick? Proof this is a hoax. 

Yep. Quite a lot of that going around. 

One person did at least ask my DH's opinion on the germ thing as he's in healthcare, but so is her husband, lol! My husband told her that distancing, separation, and hand washing are not going to eliminate the killer T and B cells in her body. 

3 hours ago, SquirrellyMama said:

Unfortunately, when I've seen CT  articles linked in a way to hopefully get through to Christians, they use it as proof that CT  is losing their grip on Christianity. The last article I saw put on FB was trying to get Christians to realize just how bad Trump is. Comments were about how CT was getting so liberal.

Kelly

Yep. I had a like or two, and I'm guessing nearly everyone else was thinking the above. 

[PrincessMommy]

3 hours ago, mom2scouts said:

Oddly enough, it's both my very left leaning friends and my very right leaning friends who are posting that Plandemic video. So weird.

Well, I was wondering about that.  I guess it's an equal opportunity conspiracy theory  😁

[PrincessMommy]

1 hour ago, Quill said:

This is a part of the narrative I don’t understand. I don’t understand who this extremely-powerful “they” is who wants the economy to tank and wants economic exchange to grind to a halt. I mean, that just doesn’t meet any goal that I can see from either political party, nor people who don’t give a flying flea about politics at all, not to mention, as a PANdemic, I don’t know who the “they” would be that could somehow orchestrate the extreme impact on economic activity throughout the entire world. 

 

What I think I can gather from the right is that they think the "they" want it to tank so "they" can take complete gov't control to turn us into a socialist country (no more free market).  That's why the "little guy" is being shut down.  But, that doesn't make sense to me since part of the "they" would mean the President... isn't he usually their guy?

That's the only thing I've seen from the far right and it hasn't been everyone who thinks that way either.  It seems like there's many reasons floating around.  Most of it is that they don't like gov't control or over reach (which I do understand being concerned about and am sympathetic to FWIW - I just think they've become a over zealous). 

[mom2scouts]

29 minutes ago, PrincessMommy said:

What I think I can gather from the right is that they think the "they" want it to tank so "they" can take complete gov't control to turn us into a socialist country (no more free market).  That's why the "little guy" is being shut down.  But, that doesn't make sense to me since part of the "they" would mean the President... isn't he usually their guy?

That's the only thing I've seen from the far right and it hasn't been everyone who thinks that way either.  It seems like there's many reasons floating around.  Most of it is that they don't like gov't control or over reach (which I do understand being concerned about and am sympathetic to FWIW - I just think they've become a over zealous). 

I'm pretty conservative, but I can't even understand it. People that I normally agree with politically are making me shake my head and wonder what they are thinking. As I said, there are also very liberal people posting some bizarre things. Maybe this virus attacks brain cells.😂

[Guest]

13 minutes ago, square_25 said:

I've never actually managed to convince anyone by presenting facts. Almost ever. 

Same here. For the most part I don’t even bother anymore. I do have one or two FB friends who do know how to have a respectful dialogue and I can have a successful communication with them and, even if we ultimately continue to see things differently, it doesn’t get heated or go in an unproductive direction. But I have snoozed a bunch of other people because they are NOT able to have a decent dialogue. 

[Happy2BaMom]

1 hour ago, mom2scouts said:

I'm pretty conservative, but I can't even understand it. People that I normally agree with politically are making me shake my head and wonder what they are thinking. As I said, there are also very liberal people posting some bizarre things. Maybe this virus attacks brain cells.😂

And as a fairly alternative-leftish type, I've come to see the behavior of the Left and Right edges to be pretty much one and the same. They think they are the exact opposite of each other (in terms of stances), but from what I observe, they are both pretty equally divorced from physical reality and both are pretty equally unwilling to admit that there even is an external reality that might be different than their own thoughts. And they tend to utterly & completely freak out if reality starts to behave in a way that doesn't match their map...they truly can become unhinged.

Whether one is Right or Left shades one's perspective as to which side is "worse" in this behavior.

The scary thing is is that I don't know how you get someone "back" once they've reached the point of disconnection from outside reality (or at least making conscious attempts to remember that there *is* an outside reality). If your life truly begins to revolve around your unshakeable belief in your own (& similar) opinions as the only true ones, where do you go from there?

 

 

[Happy2BaMom]

2 hours ago, PrincessMommy said:

What I think I can gather from the right is that they think the "they" want it to tank so "they" can take complete gov't control to turn us into a socialist country (no more free market).  That's why the "little guy" is being shut down.  But, that doesn't make sense to me since part of the "they" would mean the President... isn't he usually their guy?

That's the only thing I've seen from the far right and it hasn't been everyone who thinks that way either.  It seems like there's many reasons floating around.  Most of it is that they don't like gov't control or over reach (which I do understand being concerned about and am sympathetic to FWIW - I just think they've become a over zealous). 

 

I think one of the key points about having a "they" is that "they" are never clearly defined (& certainly never verified). And if you try to point that (lack of definition) out, you'll usually quickly get caught in a round-robin of blame, where it's always the Dems or Repubs, no matter how far-fetched or far-stretched the reasoning has to get. It's a great example of starting with a conclusion and back-filling from there.

[Shoeless]

The common thread I've seen with the tin-foil hat left and right is rejection and fear of authority. School systems, government, medical establishment, big tech companies.  Those are all "authority figures" and all are out to get them, the little guy.

 

[Garga]

2 hours ago, square_25 said:

I've never actually managed to convince anyone by presenting facts. Almost ever. 

I don’t think people on the far fringes will change.  And sometimes I let myself get drawn into an argument and it almost always goes very badly.

So, I’m trying my best to simply post balanced information with no or only a little commentary.  For example, after reading this thread, I quietly posted a few of the articles debunking the Plandemic. 

It won’t change people on the fringes.  But it might snap someone back who was curious and starting to go down the fringe path. 

I’ve changed my stances on things over the years, but never from a single conversation. It takes many little bits of information all coming together to change a person’s mind.  So, I’m going to provide balanced articles instead of fringe articles.  This is my way of feeling useful and not overwhelmed when I see people I thought were “normal” believing nutty fringe theories.

[Reefgazer]

I have no patience for true conspiracies, but at the same time, I am being called a conspiracy-monger because I question the accuracy of the covid death numbers.  So there's that.

[MistyMountain]

This was really starting to get to me and I was seeing it shared by people who usually don't fall prey to that sort of thing. The Plandemic one got shared like crazy. Another thing I saw being shared a lot was claims that we were counting lots of deaths as covid-19 that are not. Then there are lots of stuff being shared about how it is no worse then the flu like those two doctors who ended up in the Plandemic video too. I tried to counter it with the facts and about the reliability of the sources things were coming from but it is like talking to brick walls. It is actually being shared by people on both sides. The media that it is shared from tends to be the conservative sites that are unreliable and extreme (most are fine) and the fake natural sites that are anti vaccine and pseudoscientific. I have not been here in a while but it is so refreshing to see intelligent conversations about this on the threads I have read so far. I was so saddened by how many people were falling for this and how few people were using critical thinking skills or the ability to discern sources. 

I was getting so disheartened I decided to take a break from social media for a while. It was getting to depressing and trying to rebuke stuff was useless. I worry people will not take another wave seriously with all this nonsense going around. I lost one parent a little over a year ago and my second parent is in a very high group in an area of the country where there are lots of cases and hospitals are full. I am scared to lose another parent but not be able to be there. I don't want  them in a hospital that is overwhelmed to be put in a trailer if they die and not be able to have a funeral.  The stuff that puts them at high risk is all stuff that can be lived with for a long time. 

Edited May 11, 2020 by MistyMountain

[MistyMountain]

4 hours ago, Reefgazer said:

I have no patience for true conspiracies, but at the same time, I am being called a conspiracy-monger because I question the accuracy of the covid death numbers.  So there's that.

Ugh I thought there seemed to not be conspiracies shared here at least but I guess I was wrong. I have posted a huge thing of facts about this with tons of links that show that numbers are most definitely undercounted not overcounted. In all places with outbreaks there are a ton of excess deaths that are not even getting counted. The hospital is filled with covid-19 patients and they used more ICU beds then are available.  The hospitalization rates and deaths have soared in places with outbreaks. The morgues and funeral homes cannot keep up. The way deaths are counted for covid-19 is much less strict then deaths for flu and pneumonia for the flu season where the numbers do not come from death certificates but by excess hospitalizations. If we counted flu deaths in the same way they would be much less. There criteria for a probable death is strict. The epidemiologists asked to allow it to get a better scope. Doctors and medical examiners do not just list anything as Covid-19. If they did that would be fraud and they could lose the ability to accept Medicaid. The stuff that the deaths are being overcounted and everything is being listed as covid-19 is straight up a conspiracy theory. 

Edited May 11, 2020 by MistyMountain

[SoCal_Bear]

The whole Plandemic video is super viral in my area because Dr. Mikovits lives in Carlsbad. There are a number of people I am friends with who know her. They are claiming this is a massive smear campaign against her. Whether or not someone is nice, kind or a fellow Christian, and if you personally have had only good interactions with someone does not mean that you can extrapolate that to say that about someone's entire life. You can't say that about anyone IMO. You can only speak to your own experience with said person. That aside, when I posted 

"Asking questions is good. Does the preponderance of the evidence support the claims being made?" and I attached the link below that sifted through the scientific evidence for or against the claims made in the film, then I started getting a lot of the "this is a smear campagin" claims. I have a pretty evenly divided FB friends along the political spectrum so there is an exchange happening. I didn't say anything about Dr. Mikovits at all. Just that we should examine each scientific claim and the merits of it. 

https://www.politifact.com/article/2020/may/08/fact-checking-plandemic-documentary-full-false-con/?fbclid=IwAR2KLrMOhD_lRb4ETaWWzxX1LCeTEgTZddYFtRbLd2fwcsPtp-R81VoplNc

[TravelingChris]

23 hours ago, square_25 said:

 

They didn't lie. They just gave bad advice because they weren't sure...

They did lie

[MistyMountain]

3 hours ago, square_25 said:

 

I think this is where it helps to think critically. For instance, say you don't believe the death numbers (that's reasonable, because it really is hard to keep track of an outbreak as it happens!) Then you should think: how could I figure out the correct numbers? And as it happens, people have thought about this, and pretty much anyone who's serious about this knows that the right way to measure the impact from a crisis is "excess deaths." That is, how many more deaths were there this year over the same time period than last year? 

So then, if you are skeptical of the numbers, you keep an eye on excess deaths. And lo and behold, they are generally HIGHER than the listed COVID-19 deaths. And then you know that (as usual), the COVID-19 deaths are being undercounted, which makes sense, really -- it's hard to catch everyone, not everyone comes in contact with a medical professional, etc. 

By the way, note that this doesn't mean that NO ONE who didn't have COVID-19 is being counted as COVID-19 death. Doctors are human and they will sometimes make mistakes. However, chances are, there are many fewer people who are not COVID-19 and being counted as COVID-19 than vice versa. 

But again... the important point is that you create goal posts for yourself with your own reasoning. You spend time thinking "If this were true, what else should be true?" and if the thing you expected to be true didn't hold up, you should change your starting assumptions (or, of course, you can think about whether your logic was valid.) That's how one thinks scientifically... 

Yes exactly! You will never have a perfect count and there can be instances with someone counted that did not have it but overall the numbers are undercounted by quite a lot. 

[Happy2BaMom]

1 hour ago, TravelingChris said:

They did lie

 

I'd like to see (reputable) proof of that as well.

What I've read is that a number of scientists actually thought *at the time* that airborne transmission was not that high of risk for the general populace and that, unless one was a healthcare worker in direct & constant exposure with potential Covid patients, there was no need. IOW, we've had a case of evolving knowledge with a novel virus. Which makes sense.

But, in the interest of critical thinking, I'm open to seeing evidence that my understanding is incorrect. (However, a post that consists solely of, "They did lie", with no further discussion or evidence offered,.....seems to be rather an example of what we are discussing as opposed to the desire for sharing real information.)

 

ETA: I just listened to a private webinar given by a career microbiologist, researcher & public health careerist and he explained that they now think airborne transmission is the main/most significant means of transmission. So, the 6' rule and (preferably) a mask in any public place (and wash the mask after...which is why cloth are better for the average person) is a wise choice for those seeking to avoid further exposure (as well as the usual washing hands, etc). Mentioning just as an FYI for those who are interested.

Edited May 11, 2020 by Happy2BaMom
add-on point

[kbutton]

1 hour ago, square_25 said:

It's possible? Can you find me a citation to something that's obviously an explicit lie? 

Explicit? Maybe not. But a reasoned approach suggests that they spoke out of turn and it went beyond bad advice. As TCB already pointed out (below), "they" (*the irony of using that term, Lol!!!) expected us to believe that we're fine without masks, but healthcare workers needed them. That's misleading, and it's intentional if reiterated many times in many ways. How far does it have to go to be an explicit lie? 

Not to start more controversies and conspiracy theories, but "they" also tried to sell the idea that you couldn't have COVID if you also had another explanation for your symptoms. This was generally to preserve tests for people who most needed them, but at least some of the time, the communication (or recommunication) from authoritative sources suggested that it was IMPOSSIBLE to have more than one type of infection. That is patently false--people have co-infections all the time. Not long ago, a child in our area died from having both flu and strep at the same time. My DH works in healthcare, and he was really irked when the "no co-infections" push came down from on high. Whether it was misinterpreted by some agency and passed on as fact when it was meant to be a decision tool for testing only, it was circulated among practitioners by practitioners authoritatively (like from higher ups in hospital systems). The idea made an appearance a time or two on the big thread here.

Local hospitals basically have to act on recommendations from trusted agencies or get in trouble (like the doctors out west somewhere that were testing outside of the "been to China" sorts of parameters and found an outbreak). It's a little like chain of command in the military in some ways. 

*I don't know if "they" were the WHO, CDC, etc. I can't remember.

Neither of those issues were walked back fast enough. OTOH, Ohio walked back the 100,000 infections pretty quickly, but everyone is still quoting it. Sigh.

I don't have a problem with people being wrong in a changing situation. I have a problem with them being definitive when it's premature to be definitive. It's okay to say you don't know. It's okay to give proper mask wearing protocol and request that people wear homemade masks and admit it won't make it worse, but it might not help. Then do some tests and give people data about homemade masks.  And don't tell people you can't have COVID and another infection simultaneously when that sort of thing happens all the time. Unless COVID somehow eats other infections, I can't see how that could be true, lol! 

22 hours ago, TCB said:

I don't know about lying but I don't think it was just bad advice because they weren't sure. There was such a shortage of PPE that it really had to be limited to HCWs wearing it or there would have been no-one left to take care of people. I don't really understand how people were able to accept the logic of 'masks help protect HCW but they won't help protect you so don't bother wearing them'. 

[Reefgazer]

12 hours ago, square_25 said:

Well, they are almost certainly too low. But I don't know which side of that debate you're on. 

Honestly, it doesn't matter what side of the debate I am on; accurate numbers are important for all of us to make important decisions.

[Pam in CT]

re who, exactly, are these all-powerful "THEY"

17 hours ago, Quill said:

This is a part of the narrative I don’t understand. I don’t understand who this extremely-powerful “they” is who wants the economy to tank and wants economic exchange to grind to a halt. I mean, that just doesn’t meet any goal that I can see from either political party, nor people who don’t give a flying flea about politics at all... 

...not to mention, as a PANdemic, I don’t know who the “they” would be that could somehow orchestrate the extreme impact on economic activity throughout the entire world. 

 

15 hours ago, PrincessMommy said:

What I think I can gather from the right is that they think the "they" want it to tank so "they" can take complete gov't control to turn us into a socialist country (no more free market).  That's why the "little guy" is being shut down.  But, that doesn't make sense to me since part of the "they" would mean the President... isn't he usually their guy?

That's the only thing I've seen from the far right and it hasn't been everyone who thinks that way either.  It seems like there's many reasons floating around.  Most of it is that they don't like gov't control or over reach (which I do understand being concerned about and am sympathetic to FWIW - I just think they've become a over zealous). 

 

13 hours ago, Happy2BaMom said:

I think one of the key points about having a "they" is that "they" are never clearly defined (& certainly never verified). And if you try to point that (lack of definition) out, you'll usually quickly get caught in a round-robin of blame, where it's always the Dems or Repubs, no matter how far-fetched or far-stretched the reasoning has to get. It's a great example of starting with a conclusion and back-filling from there.

The global cabal operating in the shadows with the cross-national aim of wresting power from The People is a really, really old conspiracy trope.  Often with anti-semitic roots (in modern history, google Rothschilds; in current era, Soros); often tied to control of transnational capital; and consistently arising from both left side and right side origins.

The shift of the "center" of today's iteration of the trop, away from focus on capital and toward anxiety around science/technology; and away from a Europe-centered vision of the cabal to one that is China-based, points to a shift in where our existential anxieties lie.

 

[Happy2BaMom]

NM  

not worth it

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 11, 2020 by Happy2BaMom

[Guest]

5 hours ago, square_25 said:

 

That was my impression as well. Now, that may have, frankly, been bad judgment or arrogance (since we knew that masks were being used in China). But I don't think it was a lie. On the other hand, I'm open to being convinced. 

This is not an important little data point, but the early advice against masking, and also against using a cloth mask (i.e., “they are worthless”) was confusing to me and was something that bothered me a lot. Before I left on my trip to Europe, I debated about whether or not I should bring along some masks,  just in case the COVID thing blew up while I was in Europe (precisely what happened, of course). I even asked about it here and several members here said varying degrees of: it won’t keep you from getting sick, it will just scare other airline passengers who will think you are sick, only an N95 mask would really offer protection and we need those left for health care workers. So, I ordered a package of four cloth masks from Amazon before I went on my trip and took them with me, just in case. 

I didn’t actually wear them while in Europe, but I sure did end up glad I bought them (not to mention glad I bought a travel bottle of hand sanitizer and a package of disinfecting wipes, which I did use) because once I returned home, those items couldn’t be bought anywhere. 

One thing that didn’t make sense to me was that people (regular people as well as authorities) kept saying cloth masks won’t help keep YOU from getting sick, but only may help keep you from spreading disease if you are sick. Well, I kept thinking....that may be me! I am coming home from Europe; how the hell do I know if I won’t turn up sick ten days from now? So to me it seemed logical to wear a mask, even if only an “ineffective” cloth mask, just under the outside possibility I picked up CV19 in Europe! 

6 hours ago, square_25 said:

 

As I said upthread, the right statistic is "excess deaths." And that number is available. 

 

I think it is hard to decide what to count and what not to count.  Presumably, there are fewer deaths due to car crashes with fewer people commuting -- how does that impact "excess deaths".  Sadly, there is also presumably more domestic violence.  Should that count? China's skies were reported to be noticeably cleaner with the shutdown of so many factories, presumably the better air quality saved lives -- should that count?

[Shoeless]

1 hour ago, Quill said:

This is not an important little data point, but the early advice against masking, and also against using a cloth mask (i.e., “they are worthless”) was confusing to me and was something that bothered me a lot. Before I left on my trip to Europe, I debated about whether or not I should bring along some masks,  just in case the COVID thing blew up while I was in Europe (precisely what happened, of course). I even asked about it here and several members here said varying degrees of: it won’t keep you from getting sick, it will just scare other airline passengers who will think you are sick, only an N95 mask would really offer protection and we need those left for health care workers. So, I ordered a package of four cloth masks from Amazon before I went on my trip and took them with me, just in case. 

I didn’t actually wear them while in Europe, but I sure did end up glad I bought them (not to mention glad I bought a travel bottle of hand sanitizer and a package of disinfecting wipes, which I did use) because once I returned home, those items couldn’t be bought anywhere. 

One thing that didn’t make sense to me was that people (regular people as well as authorities) kept saying cloth masks won’t help keep YOU from getting sick, but only may help keep you from spreading disease if you are sick. Well, I kept thinking....that may be me! I am coming home from Europe; how the hell do I know if I won’t turn up sick ten days from now? So to me it seemed logical to wear a mask, even if only an “ineffective” cloth mask, just under the outside possibility I picked up CV19 in Europe! 

 

I agree that the information about cloth masks was confusing at the start of this.  I have a little bit of understanding about wearing PPE from vet med, but even I was like "I have no idea what the right answer is here" when it came to cloth masks for the general public.  In the end, I decided that worst case scenario was they did nothing, but best case scenario was they helped keep virus out of the air. 

[Shoeless]

4 minutes ago, square_25 said:

 

Yeah, the public messaging was really not optimal. I'm not arguing with that AT ALL. I just don't think it went as far as "lying." I think it merely stopped at "confused incompetence," which isn't exactly a ringing endorsement. 

I know that in NY, at least, they were still looking at whether masks would help in April. I suppose part of people's reluctance to recommend them has just been... cultural resistance, so to speak? We aren't used to it. 

 

There also was precious little research on whether a cloth mask would help.  There were some studies  on whether they help or hurt in occupational settings, but until CV-19, no one had ever looked into whether masks were beneficial to the general public.  I've noticed with some medical and scientific people, if there is not proof that something is true, then they speak as if that means it's 100% false, when it's really a case that no one has ever looked into the matter.  There's a reluctance with some people to say "We have no idea, so we don't know how to advise yet", and instead they'll say "There's no proof it helps, so it's a waste of time" Well, has anyone ever looked? No? Ok, then could we look into it before dismissing it? 

 

[Shoeless]

2 minutes ago, square_25 said:

 

I know that in NY, the health commissioner basically said "We're looking into it, but we aren't sure if it's helpful yet," and Cuomo said "it couldn't hurt, as long as it doesn't given you a false sense of security," which I thought was absolutely a good point.

Then they did mandate it. I thought their messaging was just fine, personally. 

 

That was a good point with Cuomo.  I admit I stopped watching a lot of the briefings a couple of weeks ago, because it was stressing and depressing me. 

I don't know that Texas has had such a clear message about masks. The response by government has been sort of wishy-washy. 😕 

[Shoeless]

1 minute ago, square_25 said:

 

Yeah, I'm still stuck in my apartment, so they don't depress me ;-). I like seeing the numbers go down. I like seeing that they have a plan, and that there are real (if imperfect) people thinking about this stuff. I can imagine that it feels less comforting if you're somewhere else, though! 

I've been following the Texas messaging somewhat, since we still have lots of friends in Austin... yeah, I wouldn't say the government has been so clear on the masks :-/. 

 

My gut feeling is that Abbott knows that masks are a good idea, but he also knows that most of Texas will pitch a screaming, gun-toting fit if they are mandated, so he's not saying anything particularly strong about it. 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, square_25 said:

 

Yeah, I'm still stuck in my apartment, so they don't depress me ;-). I like seeing the numbers go down. I like seeing that they have a plan, and that there are real (if imperfect) people thinking about this stuff. I can imagine that it feels less comforting if you're somewhere else, though! 

I've been following the Texas messaging somewhat, since we still have lots of friends in Austin... yeah, I wouldn't say the government has been so clear on the masks :-/. 

I don’t remember if this was Cuomo or the Jersey governor, but I was listening to a briefing in my car on the radio and I was so appreciative that he gave a little tribute to a few of the people who had died. He said their names, interesting things about their lives, where they had worked, where they had volunteered or attended church, kids they raised, etc. That brought tears to my eyes! I love the humanizing message because I do think part of the problem for some is that it just registers as numbers and not as human lives: someone’s grandfather, someone who volunteers every Sunday at church, someone who sang in the choir, someone who taught science to middle school kids. 

[StaceyinLA]

On 5/11/2020 at 12:54 AM, MistyMountain said:

This was really starting to get to me and I was seeing it shared by people who usually don't fall prey to that sort of thing. The Plandemic one got shared like crazy. Another thing I saw being shared a lot was claims that we were counting lots of deaths as covid-19 that are not. Then there are lots of stuff being shared about how it is no worse then the flu like those two doctors who ended up in the Plandemic video too. I tried to counter it with the facts and about the reliability of the sources things were coming from but it is like talking to brick walls. It is actually being shared by people on both sides. The media that it is shared from tends to be the conservative sites that are unreliable and extreme (most are fine) and the fake natural sites that are anti vaccine and pseudoscientific. I have not been here in a while but it is so refreshing to see intelligent conversations about this on the threads I have read so far. I was so saddened by how many people were falling for this and how few people were using critical thinking skills or the ability to discern sources. 

I was getting so disheartened I decided to take a break from social media for a while. It was getting to depressing and trying to rebuke stuff was useless. I worry people will not take another wave seriously with all this nonsense going around. I lost one parent a little over a year ago and my second parent is in a very high group in an area of the country where there are lots of cases and hospitals are full. I am scared to lose another parent but not be able to be there. I don't want  them in a hospital that is overwhelmed to be put in a trailer if they die and not be able to have a funeral.  The stuff that puts them at high risk is all stuff that can be lived with for a long time. 

 

I'm not jumping on any conspiracy bandwagons, but I have a long-time friend who had two family members die from heart attacks within the last 2 months (one on her husband's side; one hers). One was tested, and tested negative. The other was not tested. Both had Covid-19 on their death certificates. This is a trusted friend who would have zero reason to lie. I do believe if it's happening around here, it could certainly happen other places, so I am somewhat skeptical about that particular thing.

Just because a person chooses not to vaccinate does not mean they are "anti-science" or buy into every conspiracy theory. For us, we weighed risk vs benefit and made choices accordingly. Our pediatrician was always very supportive of our decisions.

As far as all the talk about masks in this thread, I am careful. I do not go out unless I absolutely have to, and I have only gone to stores where crowds are very limited, but I will not wear a mask. They make me feel like I am suffocating, and there is no way I can go without touching or removing it within a short period of time.

If you could see the people in my area who have masks on, you would realize that for most people it is absolutely pointless, and the medical professionals in my family are in total agreement (we have nurses, NPs, and an anesthesiologist who has provided care for every Covid patient they've had at his hospital). People cannot keep their hands off the masks - they move them around, they pull them down to talk using their dirty hands then put them back over their mouths/noses. Nothing about that is safe or helpful. All it does is provide a false sense of security and make people less careful.

[Ausmumof3]

On 5/12/2020 at 8:35 AM, MissLemon said:

 

I agree that the information about cloth masks was confusing at the start of this.  I have a little bit of understanding about wearing PPE from vet med, but even I was like "I have no idea what the right answer is here" when it came to cloth masks for the general public.  In the end, I decided that worst case scenario was they did nothing, but best case scenario was they helped keep virus out of the air. 

And one other potential issue is if they become damp they may be able to help multiply bacteria. 

[TCB]

I find the whole concept of falsely putting covid on death certificates so hard to understand. What are the reasons a Dr would want to put false information on there? If it is financial then that is Medicare fraud and the consequences of that are so dire that I find it hard to believe someone would risk it. It is hard to tell from the example above what was going on. I know from my own experience that there are people who"s test comes back negative, but there are a number of false negatives. My cousin's husband had 2 negative test and then a positive one. They repeated the test because the dr was sure he had it from his clinical signs.

[Jaybee]

Locally, there is a lady I know whose mom (in her 90s) tested positive. Her mom is expected to pass today. The lady seems determined that Covid19 NOT be considered a cause. She told me that it was "no more covid than the osteomyelitis (and her age)." And that she'd had a heart attack over the weekend. Today, when someone asked if it was due to covid, she said "sepsis." I don't understand her reluctance, other than that we live in a very skeptical area about the seriousness of covid, with many believing doctors are overstating the deaths. It's true her mother had health issues, but I don't see how covid wouldn't be considered among the causes, because it does seem to be an initiator of the final issues.

ETA: I don't know if her mom's doctor is saying this too, or if the lady is approaching it in her own way.

Edited May 14, 2020 by Jaybee

[ktgrok]

On 5/11/2020 at 12:26 PM, square_25 said:

 

As I said upthread, the right statistic is "excess deaths." And that number is available. 

 

On 5/11/2020 at 12:19 PM, Reefgazer said:

Honestly, it doesn't matter what side of the debate I am on; accurate numbers are important for all of us to make important decisions.

We all need to reminde ourselves that accuracy will happen later, in hindsight. In the midst of it, not so much. Even excess death numbers are not up to date...they can take months to be full counted. 

[kiwik]

On 5/9/2020 at 1:01 AM, Ordinary Shoes said:

I see those videos posted by the usual suspects on FB and I start doubting whether we can survive as a country (USA specific). Why are people so stupid? 

This is a segue but I realized something when one of the "usual suspects" posted the video from the anti-vax woman on FB. This person has become very extreme over the last 10 or so years. She's a devout, over the top Catholic who now believes that the pope is a heretic. I've watched her become more angry and suspicious over the years. I watched her change from being pro Pope Francis to anti Pope Francis. She got there slowly, one conspiracy theory Youtube video at a time. 

ETA I'm so tired of the "that's just your opinion" thing. No one seems to understand the difference between fact and opinion anymore. 

Mental illness?  It has become apparent my unpleasant neighbour with the lovely wife has dementia.

[kbutton]

2 hours ago, TCB said:

I find the whole concept of falsely putting covid on death certificates so hard to understand. What are the reasons a Dr would want to put false information on there? If it is financial then that is Medicare fraud and the consequences of that are so dire that I find it hard to believe someone would risk it. It is hard to tell from the example above what was going on. I know from my own experience that there are people who"s test comes back negative, but there are a number of false negatives. My cousin's husband had 2 negative test and then a positive one. They repeated the test because the dr was sure he had it from his clinical signs.

I agree.

Also, they could've had a negative test but have exposure plus a series of really striking symptoms. Doctors diagnose things on clinical evidence only (meaning symptoms not tests) all the time, and no one questions it. What is allowed to be counted as COVID is more stringent than plenty of other conditions. 

[KungFuPanda]

On 5/10/2020 at 5:19 PM, mom2scouts said:

Oddly enough, it's both my very left leaning friends and my very right leaning friends who are posting that Plandemic video. So weird.

Did you click on the link?  I had a left leaning friend who posted a Plandemic-type video.  It just didn't track.  I clicked and she Rick Rolled me.  I've never been so happy to be Rick Rolled!

[mom2scouts]

Just now, KungFuPanda said:

Did you click on the link?  I had a left leaning friend who posted a Plandemic-type video.  It just didn't track.  I clicked and she Rick Rolled me.  I've never been so happy to be Rick Rolled!

Yes, they were not Rick Roll videos. They were actual links to the Plandemic video (although some of them had already been blocked or removed by youtube).

[sassenach]

3 hours ago, Ktgrok said:

 

We all need to reminde ourselves that accuracy will happen later, in hindsight. In the midst of it, not so much. Even excess death numbers are not up to date...they can take months to be full counted. 

IIRC, by definition, case fatality rates cannot even be calculated until the event has completed.