How Common is Educational Neglect Among Homeschoolers?

[Jean in Newcastle]

For the purpose of my post, I will soften the phrase to a parent's educational indifference instead of neglect. I don't know if there is really a solution to this problem.

 

Often the solution offered for an indifferent homeschooling parent is to put that child in a public school. But students who excel in public schools are usually the ones whose parents are devoted to their success. Those whose parents are indifferent usually underperform in public schools.

 

Here is my anecdotal perspective. For the most part, my homeschooling friends have been very conscientious concerning their children's educations. But one lady I know removed her child from public school to homeschool him because he was not progressing as he should. But after she brought him home, she did not really do much with him, so he didn't progress at home either. Additionally, the public schools did not do an adequate job teaching her older son the basics of reading or arithmetic, and he is struggling as an adult.

 

So I don't see what the solution is for the younger child. Sending him to the local public schools doesn't seem to be the solution, and homeschooling doesn't seem to be the solution. I don't have the answer.

 

Academically, I feel like usually the common denominator in a child's success is the parents' devotion to their success. Whether that is public school or the many varied ways of homeschooling. Even if the parent is not brilliant, the child can achieve success because the parent makes sure that the child does his public school trigonometry homework or completes her homeschool chemistry DVD lesson.

 

Is there any solution for a child whose parent is indifferent?

I agree with you.  Sometimes the solution is a mentor for the child - sometimes a family member, a friend (peer or adult) or a teacher of some kind (doesn't have to be in brick and mortar school).  Sometimes the solution is a determined child.  My dad (who died a number of years ago at age 92 so this was a long time ago) was forbidden to leave the farm to go to school because he was needed on the farm.  He got up even earlier than farmer's hours to get farmwork done and then rode his horse to school anyway. 

 

The sad reality is that some families are in that "not quite abusive or neglectful to the point where the state needs to get involved) category.  And those kids do fall through cracks even in brick and mortar schools and even in homeschools.  I still think that it is a small percentage who are at the extreme.  And many kids who were in the next indifferent family category can overcome it.  As far as unschoolers go, this is one set of stats I found https://healthresearchfunding.org/20-incredible-unschooling-statistics/ (you can debate the legitimacy of the stats) where a significant portion are educated enough to pursue some higher education.  I assume this means at least community college.  It might not be the Ivy's but last time I checked, community colleges do require basic literacy and numeracy.  As far as the extreme religious go, most at least want their kids to read the Bible (which if it is the King James version which many of the more extreme religious prefer or even require) which is listed as having a reading level of 12th grade.  And most want their kids to have basic numeracy - even the girls. 

 

If I knew people in the indifferent category, I would be sad and I would try to be a mentor as I was able.  I don't know any though.  (The ones I knew of in the past have kids who have subsequently been able to go to college even though it was a tougher road for them for awhile.) 

 

Edited to add link

Edited February 28, 2018 by Jean in Newcastle

[MerryAtHope]

Do you seriously think wedding a garden is a life skill most kids should have? Everyone lives in a house with dishes, bedrooms and bathrooms.  The percentage of kids in America living at a home with a garden is incredibly low in general and, depending on region, even rarer.

 

Please see my follow-up post where I explain that the kids we worked with didn't know how to do ANY of those skills. But it's interesting how polarizing weeding is, LOL! That'll teach me to go off on any kind of tangent (quoting the previous person and only responding to her, btw), LOL!

 

Is it a serious issue to have never pulled a single weed? I state for the record, no! 

 

I am surprised how many people think you have to have a garden to do this (we don't have a garden but have had lots of opportunities to pull weeds at our house, at our church, at places of business years ago--sidewalks, parking lots, a simple flower bed by the door...

 

But will it equate to not knowing reading or math skills, emphatically I say no! 

[G5052]

Annnnnnnnddd... then the whole can of worms of homeschool parents shoving students off on unsuspecting co-op teachers, and the students DO NOT DO THE WORK.  

 

At our co-op ( I talked to two teachers who've been there a long time, one for ten years and one for 5) and they said, by and large FIFTY PERCENT generally don't do the work.  

 

And this is a co-op which has a volunteer requirement, an in person interview with BOTH parents, and all students directly interviewed, and a 400.00 per family registration fee in addition to the fact that the classes aren't cheap. 

 

I've heard the number is closer to 30% at the local secular- unschooler when young, offeres high school classes when older group.  

 

That was my experience when I taught paid classes. Families paid a facility fee, and then they paid me for the class.

 

I ended up doing hands on science classes for grade school kids. No homework, no reading. We did a lapbook and experiments. Worked great!

[Jean in Newcastle]

Please see my follow-up post where I explain that the kids we worked with didn't know how to do ANY of those skills. But it's interesting how polarizing weeding is, LOL! That'll teach me to go off on any kind of tangent (quoting the previous person and only responding to her, btw), LOL!

 

Is it a serious issue to have never pulled a single weed? I state for the record, no! 

 

I am surprised how many people think you have to have a garden to do this (we don't have a garden but have had lots of opportunities to pull weeds at our house, at our church, at places of business years ago--sidewalks, parking lots, a simple flower bed by the door...

 

But will it equate to not knowing reading or math skills, emphatically I say no! 

 

I think your follow up post did a good job of explaining that it was the lack of work ethic that was the true problem.  Because I could teach a toddler to pull a weed - if they had enough strength, that is. 

 

[...................]

We have only a 15x15 patio and my kids know how to plant flowers, mulch, weed, etc ...having a few living things and caring for ones yard and is just part of life in any home IMO.

[8filltheheart]

Nm

Edited February 28, 2018 by 8FillTheHeart

[KathyBC]

Right.

 

Basic literacy is probably the first hallmark of adequate education.

 

A child without major learning disabilities should be taught to read. I've known some late bloomers who, in spite of school instruction, did not learn to read until age 11 or 12 but after that did not struggle. I think that would be the upper limit of my tolerance for waiting.

 

A child with dyslexia is another matter; I think teaching and remediation need to happen, but I wouldn't judge the adequacy of teaching by results.

 

 

I'm veering off on a tangent, but remediating dyslexia can take several years. Combining that with teenage hormones can increase the difficulty of that task. I'd like to see the acceptance of the late bloomer theory by homeschoolers be moved to down to ages 8 or 9, tops. There is no harm in doing some vision testing and explicit phonics at age 9, if more holistic methods have not produced results by then.

 

/end soapbox. :D 

[LMD]

I'm veering off on a tangent, but remediating dyslexia can take several years. Combining that with teenage hormones can increase the difficulty of that task. I'd like to see the acceptance of the late bloomer theory by homeschoolers be moved to down to ages 8 or 9, tops. There is no harm in doing some vision testing and explicit phonics at age 9, if more holistic methods have not produced results by then.

 

/end soapbox. :D

I just listened to Andrew Pudewa on the read aloud revival podcast talk about his late reader - 12+

He said that - and I'm paraphrasing - deciding not to stress about it doesn't mean you stop working on it. You just keep going with what they CAN do and be calm.

He said that he came to the point where he accepted that some people have to read through their fingers (braille) and maybe for this kid, his severe dyslexia meant that he had to mostly read through his ears. So they did a ton of audiobooks and just low pressure worked on treating the dyslexia.

[mamamoose]

We have only a 15x15 patio and my kids know how to plant flowers, mulch, weed, etc ...having a few living things and caring for ones yard and is just part of life in any home IMO.

we have 3 dogs, 3 cats, 30 cows, 4-6 pigs, and 40 chickens. And no garden. Just because I don’t know how to weed a garden doesn’t mean I don’t know how to care for things, anymore than saying mybkids are educationally neglected because they don’t know about the holocaust.

[...................]

we have 3 dogs, 3 cats, 30 cows, 4-6 pigs, and 40 chickens. And no garden. Just because I don’t know how to weed a garden doesn’t mean I don’t know how to care for things, anymore than saying mybkids are educationally neglected because they don’t know about the holocaust.

Relax no one’s saying you’re guilty of educational neglect, but I’m sure most children have planted a seed, at some point in their lives even if it was just 3rd grade science class? Your children know how to care for ones lawn/property so it doesn’t look like/smell like a slum?

 

That’s my point, just that general knowledge would probably result in grown people capable of just looking around a yard/patio/garden/home and being able to THINK about how to make it presentable. They can go to the library and get magazines for ideas, they can call grandma, or they can be like me and keep it really simple, or maybe for you it’s really complicated compared to me since you have to upkeep fencing, but looking around one’s home...and considering how it’s kept, is kind of basic life.

 

And yes stick a seed in a pot and watch it grow. Every school used to do the seed in a milk carton

Thing...

[....]

I'm sure my memory is off but it seems we always started with pilgrims, hit the Revolution, and ended with the civil war while somehow skipping presidents 4-15. It felt like we did this every year without going in depth. I don't know how they managed to fill the time.

 

Yep, we did that every year, it seemed like!  I don't think we ever got past the civil war.   :laugh:

[maize]

I bet you do know how to weed a garden, though. Because it goes like this: See a weed, remove the weed.

 

See a sock on the floor, pick up the sock from the floor.

 

Use a dish, wash that dish.

 

People are really zeroing in on the weeding example, to comic effect. The poster, Merry, who said that is an incredibly even-keeled and compassionate person. I feel confident that she doesn't want to want to throw everyone who never had a garden in the klink :lol: .

 

*Do you grow food for these animals?

Ah, but if you came to my house you would need to be able to recognize that milkweed is not a weed.

 

It's butterfly food.

 

I'm sure there is something profound to be drawn from that, related to kids and education and not-weeds. I didn't sleep enough last night though so I need someone else to jump in and do the thought work for me.

 

Or maybe all that needs to be drawn from it is "maize likes butterflies and happily encourages the weeds".

[...................]

I love Merry :) She’s one of my favorites. She’s been here since my now 16 year old was In K

[Tsuga]

Can't snip sorry.

 

What? I did *not* say I wasn't talking to anyone anymore!

 

You said you were not engaging on this thread.

 

I didn't mean to accuse you of ignoring me.

 

I also want to apologize because I've been talking about education policy, and I sometimes forget that to many people here, there is no education policy, there is just "me and how much I care about my kid".

 

Our country and states are abandoning our kids. Straight up neglect. Straight-up, "I don't believe in you, I don't believe you can finish this or that math class."

 

We hear it all the time.

 

And I think the sense is "well a parent would never do that to their kid. I would never do that to my kid, how dare you accuse me, you should know that I could never do that, if my family doesn't get a kid exposure to geometry, it is not because of bias, or failure, or neglect to find the right resources, it's because the kid really can't do it and I'm feeling really bad that you're even suggesting that! I'm doing my best!"

 

And I do believe that most people are doing their best! But not everyone. Surely it is theoretically possible that some parents aren't working hard. We all have seen some of these families on threads here. And sometimes, it's important to realize, our best isn't enough (this is what great parents do when they realize their kid has an LD and they need outside help). But that's not failure. That's a success.

 

And where I live, and in most parts of the US, it's some amazing coincidence that kids who are told that they just can't do it, are brown, poor or rural or a combination of the three. The kids who "just aren't cut out for it" are never the privileged city white kids. Those kids, their parents cross hell or high water to get them set up for a career in which they have many options.

 

Not one path to success, but options.

 

I want that for every kid.

 

I also think that everyone thinks that I advocate for some insane system in which everyone finishes Algebra I with an A, and that's not the case. Obviously, that would be impossible. I also did not think that finishing a novel and algebra I would be so controversial, to be honest. Not because it's easy, but because getting a C in something is actually considered acceptable, a D is still a pass, and I think there's a huge disconnect between what is considered finishing a course in my mind, and finishing the course in the mind of the typical WTM homeschooler... it may sound like I think that if a kid isn't cut out for college, I think they're being neglected and that's not the case.

 

I think that if a kid doesn't have the basic classes required to enter community college (being able to write a paragraph, read a novel, use a linear equation) and they can't get special exceptions from the state based on disability, they are set up $15,000 behind the game because then they have to pay for all that as an adult. And all middle and working class kids already start out looking at racking up around $30k in debt.

 

So for the record, I will do anything to make sure that every child in this country has access to an education which allows them to choose their future to the greatest extent that their natural ability allows.

 

It doesn't mean I think someone's a bad parent because their kid did not take calculus or something. Not everyone can be an engineer or even a teacher. But everyone deserves the chance to aim high and work their way to a better future. And I don't think it's up to one person to decide that they are the exception or this one dumb kid of a janitor is an exception. "He can't do it."

 

I want to make every adult looking at every kid believe in them.

 

If you believe in your kid, I'm not looking at you. I'm looking at people who actually are ready to give up on a kid. And there are many people out there, but again, I don't know how many. Hopefully fewer homechoolers than public school teachers...

Edited March 1, 2018 by Tsuga

[Heathermomster]

I wish there was a #metoo movement for kids who completed 12 years of ps education and can neither read or write well for no other reason than educational neglect.

Edited March 1, 2018 by Heathermomster

[...................]

Spud not Bud Spud not Bud Spud not Bud But not Spud But Not Spud BPud not spbud ....

[Arcadia]

Sad news story about a homeschool family living in Joshua Tree Friends say Joshua Tree couple is extremely poor, not abusive http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-joshua-tree-couple-20180302-story.html

 

“Klear is the leader of the Phoenix Scouts, a local scouting group. The three children were members, she said. They attended weekly meetings, went camping and made crafts together, she said. On Christmas, the children marched in an annual parade with matching red sweaters and Santa hats.

 

"I know this looks like crap," Klear said, looking at the shelter. "But they were very well taken care of."

 

Klear met Kirk years ago, when Kirk ran a Mommy and Me group for toddlers at a local community center, she said.

 

The children were home-schooled, and the mother and her children were constantly at the library and the Hi-Desert Nature Museum in Yucca Valley, Klear said. The children were all well read and educated, she said.â€

[Tsuga]

Tsuga you keep quoting me but someobe upthread pointed out it was Spud who said that. Spud, not bud lol

 

Just to keep things straight :)

 

Thank you, and I'm sorry, spud! And bud!

 

Sad news story about a homeschool family living in Joshua Tree Friends say Joshua Tree couple is extremely poor, not abusive http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-joshua-tree-couple-20180302-story.html

 

“Klear is the leader of the Phoenix Scouts, a local scouting group. The three children were members, she said. They attended weekly meetings, went camping and made crafts together, she said. On Christmas, the children marched in an annual parade with matching red sweaters and Santa hats.

 

"I know this looks like crap," Klear said, looking at the shelter. "But they were very well taken care of."

 

Klear met Kirk years ago, when Kirk ran a Mommy and Me group for toddlers at a local community center, she said.

 

The children were home-schooled, and the mother and her children were constantly at the library and the Hi-Desert Nature Museum in Yucca Valley, Klear said. The children were all well read and educated, she said.â€

 

I read about this. They did look extremely poor, but also, unable to organize their thinking around their very poor household. Though, it might have all just blown about from the wind.

 

Poor kids. 

 

It does not sound like a case of educational or even physical neglect, though. Another article I saw earlier described the kids as cared for, if extremely poor.

[maize]

The Joshua Tree situation sounds so sad.

 

I hope the family gets help and resources not condemnation.

[eternalsummer]

Yes, it doesn't sound like they were abusive or educationally neglected or any of it - just very poor.

[Sandwalker]

I have joined the ranks of hs'ers who do not discuss hs'ing IRL.

 

We are in a low reg state. I have seen some horror stories, with what Kung Fu Panda and others were saying about parents getting offended by the school and pulling kids out on a whim. "Punishing the school" as opposed to "seeking the best learning environment for their child."

 

They don't stop working. (In every situation that I've known personally, they can't afford to.) They don't address their own literacy and social problems. They don't learn what the child needs to know, to progress academically. The child loses speech therapy AND breakfast and lunch that he got at school.

 

But here, you can't say, "Public schoolers problems," because they don't usually sign up for virtual ps. It's known to be a failure here. These are still the Walmart workbook type. When they do return to school, it's not next fall, it's more like three to four years later (according to friends who are ps teachers), and they've not progressed academically since they left.

 

I'm not going to put a number on this, but combined with the Gothardite types who have twelve untaught children, I see a significant problem with hsing in my state.

 

Now here's why I don't talk about hsing IRL: I know why people pull their kids out of schools here.

 

There is no way I can say to a functionally illiterate mom, "You can't teach him, and you aren't teaching him, and what are you going to do to afford the missed meals, you owe it to him to enroll," when I know she took him out because test anxiety and bullying and inappropriate curriculum were destroying him! At age eight!

 

And the same veteran teacher who decries the homeschool failure, tells me she is sick at heart over the testing culture, that she can only manage about 2.5 months of actual instruction because of it, and that the test anxiety and excessive homework are harming her third graders...and the only reason she's still teaching is that she's reluctant to turn the children over to young teachers who have only learned these non-nurturing and ineffective methods...

 

And nowadays, what if I, personally, tell an obviously unfit hsing mom that she owes it to her child to put him in school - and he gets shot? Or bullied until he kills himself?

 

No way. Not me. I've got my head down, finishing raising my boys, saving my books for the grandchildren.

 

Nutshell: I think hs neglect and failure are very real. But I see this situation as public school failure. If our schools were safe and effective, only a few outliers would homeschool. Probably that 3% that we maintained for so long; that's how many actually *want* to homeschool (and therefore do a pretty good job). Too many families are hsing because they just don't want to send their kid back. I want our nation to get the schools back on track, with all that's included in that sentiment.

 

Edit: I also went down the road of being in favor of increased hs regs, for several years, in response to what I've seen with Gothardite girls who are not given a basic education - not even third grade math - while being responsible for the care of younger siblings. But again, I have waved the white flag. Surrender. I don't want the school people telling me what to teach, and it doesn't even work when the father of those neglected girls used to pay "Christian" homeschool evaluators to lie on the reports.

All of this.

[regentrude]

Oh boy, these are the students I get coming to me for tutoring. It makes me incredibly sad. One student I have at the moment in in 8th grade, and he cannot write a sentence. I have finally convinced his mom to tackle the Head of English about providing this poor kid with daily remediation, because our hour a week is never going to be enough to catch him up.

 

He's been in school for 7+ years. No homeschooling involved. School is not deprived in any way. Student has just had his basic education neglected since Year 1.

 

What did the parents do about it all these years? Surely they must have been aware their kid did not learn?

[Jean in Newcastle]

What did the parents do about it all these years? Surely they must have been aware their kid did not learn?

I used to have make my living tutoring kids like this. In my experience, parents were aware. They asked the teachers who told them “trust us. We’re dealing with it. “. For years. Until these parents realized with horror that it was getting worse, not better. Then they called someone like me. And like Sadie, these were not homeschooled kids. (And yes, I realize that many ps kids learn just fine. )

[fralala]

Oh boy, these are the students I get coming to me for tutoring. It makes me incredibly sad. One student I have at the moment in in 8th grade, and he cannot write a sentence. I have finally convinced his mom to tackle the Head of English about providing this poor kid with daily remediation, because our hour a week is never going to be enough to catch him up.

 

He's been in school for 7+ years. No homeschooling involved. School is not deprived in any way. Student has just had his basic education neglected since Year 1.

 

Having volunteered tutoring adults, I would say that it only gets more difficult. Interestingly, teaching basic math skills was not that big a struggle, but I suspect that most of the adults I encountered who lacked basic literacy actually had dyslexia that the public schools had failed to identify. They were all either poor or minority students who had simply been assumed not to be smart, which was so far from the freakin' truth.

[regentrude]

Not sure about the dad, but mom is from a NESB,

 

 

Sadie, what does NESB mean?

[Renai]

Sadie, what does NESB mean?

 

Not Sadie, but I think it is Non-English Speaking Background.

[mamamoose]

I bet you do know how to weed a garden, though. Because it goes like this: See a weed, remove the weed.

 

See a sock on the floor, pick up the sock from the floor.

 

Use a dish, wash that dish.

 

People are really zeroing in on the weeding example, to comic effect. The poster, Merry, who said that is an incredibly even-keeled and compassionate person. I feel confident that she doesn't want to want to throw everyone who never had a garden in the klink :lol: .

 

*Do you grow food for these animals?

I do not grow food for these animals. I buy it.

[OneStepAtATime]

What did the parents do about it all these years? Surely they must have been aware their kid did not learn?

FWIW, my daughter was in a good school from 4k through 5th.  She started 6th grade as a homeschooler, unable to read well at all (Clifford books were hard).  She is bright and was compensating in many ways but also struggled daily.  From the outside looking in that must seem like I wasn't paying any attention.  The school must not have been either.  Looks can be deceiving.

 

Yes her teachers were aware.  Yes I was VERY aware.  Painfully so. 

 

I worked hard every.single.day reteaching what had been taught at school.  We worked hours after school.  Poor DD. I absolutely knew something was wrong.  I just didn't know what.

 

I talked to my mother, the reading specialist who taught for years and has several degrees.  I talked to our pediatrician.  I had innumerable meetings with DD's teachers.  I talked to other parents.  Other family members.  I talked until I was blue in the face.  Not one person mentioned dyslexia, I knew virtually NOTHING about dyslexia so I didn't even know it was staring me in the face, and when I finally started asking the right questions I got shut down.  BY EVERYONE.  Including my own husband.  We wasted years trying things that did not help her.  Years.  Believe me we were not sitting on our laurels.  Other parents I know have gone through the same process.  At least there is more information out there now than when I started this journey...

 

I was told:  She is just a little unfocused.  She needs more time.  Some kids are a little delayed.  Not every child can be a straight A student.  Her grades aren't bad so it must not be as bad as you think it is.  Maybe she needs an earlier bed time.  Some kids just don't like books.  She is lazy.  You need to be firmer with her and MAKE her read.  Maybe she isn't as bright as she seems.  Some kids are not academically oriented.  You should have her eyes checked (which we did, several times).  We also were told by professionals:  There is no such thing as dyslexia.    Or: Dyslexia exists but your daughter doesn't have it.   

 

ONE parent, one single parent, mentioned to me one day that she had found an evaluator NOT through the school that might be able to help me.  And she did.  Yes, DD is profoundly dyslexic; and dyscalculic; and has low processing speed; and an auditory processing glitch; and possibly ADD.  She is also very bright and had a lot of tremendous strengths that were helping her limp along.  And not one single professional (teachers, school evaluators, doctors) ever figured it out.  You know where I have gotten the most useful information?  The Learning Challenges board here on WTM.  Once we started our homeschooling journey the lovely people there gave me LOADS  more useful tips and advice than ANY professional I ever went to.  I am eternally grateful and wish with all my heart I had known about that resource long, long before I did.

 

In the end, my own pediatrician started calling me for information.  Teachers at the school were calling me for information, even though my children were no longer attending.  The school evaluator was calling me for information.  You wouldn't believe the level of ignorance and lack of training these professionals were using as their base for determining the fate of the children they encountered.  I don't blame them.  They did care.  They were not trained.  I blame the system.

[Crimson Wife]

Somewhere along the line, many school administrators and teachers got this mistaken belief that dyslexia cannot be diagnosed until 3rd grade. While there are indeed "late bloomers" who are slower to learn to read but then quickly catch up, phonological processing difficulties (the underlying problem that causes dyslexia) can reliably be diagnosed as young as age 4. Schools should be screening kids upon kindergarten entrance for phonological processing problems and starting intervention straight away.

 

My daughter's high frequency hearing loss was only discovered because I was insisting halfway through kindergarten that the school test her for dyslexia. She's actually got good phonological processing as it turns out- her difficulties learning to sound out words were because she physically could not hear the differences between many consonants. She was just such a good lip reader that she could use that plus context clues to "fill in the gaps" of what she wasn't hearing that nobody figured out she was profoundly deaf above a certain frequency.

[kiwik]

I am going to present a different perspective. I think the wild popularity of curriculum options, online classes, co-op communities, homeschool resources and programs such as charter schools, CC and WTM would not be there if the homeschool community was largely practicing neglect. The fact that there is such a growing market is evidence that most homeschoolers want a robust education for their children. I would posit that there are some people in this community who may use homeschooling as a cover for neglect, but I would also posit that this percentage is not significantly greater than those in the system who abuse and neglect. Statistics would be hard to measure, but this is my best theory. I don't believe there's any significant correlation between homeschooling and neglect, and I certainly don't believe that there is any causation. I think this is the crux of the argument.

 

As we determine what oversight should or should be not on homeschoolers to ensure the safety of children, I think it's important to remember the cost of freedom for that safety net. Why punish the majority for the minority? This comes down to a fundamental belief that can be seen in many current national arguments. Personally, I follow the Benjamin Franklin quote on the matter: "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither." Homeschooling and its freedoms are not the enemy here, and they shouldn't be targeted as potential monsters just because it was one factor in one couple who were monsters to their children.

You are not punishing the majority. How is maintaining basic standards and meeting a few criteria punishment? There are all kinds of things we do not because it benefits us personally but because it serves the common good. And you are not giving up an essential liberty for temporary safety - you are accepting that as a member of a society you have to do things you might not want to for the benefit of that society and to keep other people safe.

[Ravin]

Somewhere along the line, many school administrators and teachers got this mistaken belief that dyslexia cannot be diagnosed until 3rd grade. While there are indeed "late bloomers" who are slower to learn to read but then quickly catch up, phonological processing difficulties (the underlying problem that causes dyslexia) can reliably be diagnosed as young as age 4. Schools should be screening kids upon kindergarten entrance for phonological processing problems and starting intervention straight away.

 

My daughter's high frequency hearing loss was only discovered because I was insisting halfway through kindergarten that the school test her for dyslexia. She's actually got good phonological processing as it turns out- her difficulties learning to sound out words were because she physically could not hear the differences between many consonants. She was just such a good lip reader that she could use that plus context clues to "fill in the gaps" of what she wasn't hearing that nobody figured out she was profoundly deaf above a certain frequency.

I know one issue is with the law. In my state, they often adhere to the letter while doing as little as possible. One factor in this is that as part of the "diagnosis" of learning disabilities, intervention is not required if a child is not at least 3 grade levels behind in one or more subjects. You can't be three grade levels behind until 3rd grade.

[Frosch]

I know one issue is with the law. In my state, they often adhere to the letter while doing as little as possible. One factor in this is that as part of the "diagnosis" of learning disabilities, intervention is not required if a child is not at least 3 grade levels behind in one or more subjects. You can't be three grade levels behind until 3rd grade.

 

That was our experience too.  My son was homeschooled but received services from the school starting at age 4 for various issues.  He showed signs of dyslexia but they said that they could not diagnose him until 3rd grade.  

 

Of course, by then his little smart-self had learned to accommodate fairly well and was reading above level by 5th grade.  By age 12, he had reached full accommodation and could do oral readings with no signs of an issue. 

[Sebastian (a lady)]

I tend to think of homeschooling as overlapping circles. I'm in a populous area. I'm part of this list and that one and this group, etc. Those people are part of another list and another co-op, and so forth. Like, we're all closely overlapping.

 

Usually this thinking serves me well - I'll meet someone - even someone an hour away - who homeschools and I'll be like, do you know so and so or so and so. Oh, yes, I do. Or, oh, yeah, I'm on that list. Or, oh yeah, my kids took that class years ago. Overlapping circles.

 

But every once in awhile, I meet someone whose circles have NO overlap. Like, none. This happened to me recently. Dh is an actor and he did a show where the theater was in a church. One of the church women who was doing the tech for the theater turned out to homeschool. So I did the circles thing. Who do we know in common? What groups?

 

None. Not a one. She lives not that far away. She lives in the same neighborhood as two families I know. She was active socially with homeschool friends. We had no overlap. She's a very religious homeschooler, it turned out. Most of my circles are secular, but many of the people in them are religious (but homeschooling for secular reasons) and have some religious circles as well. But there was no overlap.

 

In moments like that, I realize that there are whole parallel worlds in homeschooling. I think of myself as pretty well connected in the homeschool world here - and other people do to. But I simply don't know whole communities of people. And in that, I know, there could easily be some parallel world where educational neglect is common. Just right next door. Who knows.

 

ETA: She seems to be a lovely person and not at all an educational neglecter, fyi. I don't mean to imply her circles might have any neglect rampant either. Just that there are these parallel worlds and we don't know who we don't know.

I had one of these moments recently. We went to the state house to a hearing on a homeschool bill. It was quite draconian and brought out a lot of diverse homescjoolers. Of the 250 or so there at the beginning of the hearing, I knew only 2 families. There were over 500 people there by the end of the hearing. I think I ran into 3 other families I recognized.

 

I have definitely seen in some homeschool groups that people start to think that what the dozen families the see often are doing is what "most" homeschoolers are doing.

[shinyhappypeople]

I wish there was a #metoo movement for kids who completed 12 years of ps education and can neither read or write well for no other reason than educational neglect.

 

Or wasn't enrolled in H.S. Geometry, while in public school, because she wasn't "college material."  (I now have a BA)

 

Or had to teach herself how to figure area as an adult because somehow that basic skill fell through the cracks in my public school education.

 

My education wasn't neglectful, but it was certainly mediocre, ineffective, and indifferent.  

 

I've continued reading stories of adult homeschoolers who regret being homeschooled.  Some were truly neglected or abused.  More and more I'm seeing stories of students with mediocre educations saying they suffered from educational neglect because they didn't like the curriculum their parents chose, or were provided with resources and then forced to self-teach in high school (a legitimate complaint, but doesn't rise to the level of neglect), or wish their parent had done better with certain subjects.  

 

All of that is feedback worth hearing, and as the parent of a high schooler, I take it to heart and try to learn from it.  But it's frustrating to hear it labeled "neglect" because that's not what it was.  It was a mediocre home education not unlike the mediocre public education received by thousands of students.  Look at the enrollment in remedial courses at a community college and you'll see many recent public school grads taking pre-algebra or reading comprehension.  It happens.  The grass isn't always greener... 

 

For students coming out of neglect situations, surely the mediocre public school system would have been an improvement by a huge margin.  But for the rest of y'all... stop romanticizing public school.  It may or may not have been better in your particular situation.  But you have this idea of year after year of talented, engaged teachers presenting material that you really learn and remember.  That's generally not how it works. Some teachers and subjects will be great, but most of the time... meh.   You'd graduate with gaps and probably feel cynical about the mediocre public education you received. 

[Crimson Wife]

 For students coming out of neglect situations, surely the mediocre public school system would have been an improvement by a huge margin.  But for the rest of y'all... stop romanticizing public school.  It may or may not have been better in your particular situation.  But you have this idea of year after year of talented, engaged teachers presenting material that you really learn and remember.  That's generally not how it works. Some teachers and subjects will be great, but most of the time... meh.   You'd graduate with gaps and probably feel cynical about the mediocre public education you received. 

 

Yeah, I think many HSed kids imagine some combination of Ms. Frizzle (minus the crazy field trips) and Hogwarts (minus the magic). Yeah, that's not what PS is like...

 

[knitgrl]

My oldest went to public school. In second grade, his teacher had so many kids she said who shouldn't have passed 1st, she didn't have any time for my smart kid. She had him tutor other students and let him read at his desk most of the time. He had over 1,500AR points. I was working at a public library at that point. He would have been much better served if he had come to work with me and hung out reading books at the library. And some people would call that educational neglect, but it would have been better than the public school - at least that year.

[kiwik]

My oldest went to public school. In second grade, his teacher had so many kids she said who shouldn't have passed 1st, she didn't have any time for my smart kid. She had him tutor other students and let him read at his desk most of the time. He had over 1,500AR points. I was working at a public library at that point. He would have been much better served if he had come to work with me and hung out reading books at the library. And some people would call that educational neglect, but it would have been better than the public school - at least that year.

Even if everyone else had been a grade level many teachers consider tutoring your peers and reading quietly to be appropriate extension. Either that or more output.

[HeartString]

Even if everyone else had been a grade level many teachers consider tutoring your peers and reading quietly to be appropriate extension. Either that or more output.

It may be considered appropriate from the teacher's perspective but it killed my child's love of learning and reading. Before we started homeschooling he would read quietly at school until he was sick to death of reading and then get in trouble because he was bored to tears. Only being allowed to read grade level books didn't help the situation. How much Junie B. Jones can one person tolerate?

Expecting a young child, especially a rough and tumble boy to read books quietly for hours and hours, broken up only by a worksheet that takes 5 minutes here and there and a 20 minute recess is inappropriate developmentally. Especially when you then take away the 20 minute recess because the child wasn't able to sit still and read for 4 hours before hand.

That child will now only read if required because he just hates it so much. I might still be bitter about this.

Edited March 22, 2018 by Cnew02

[kiwik]

It may be considered appropriate from the teacher's perspective but it killed my child's love of learning and reading. Before we started homeschooling he would read quietly at school until he was sick to death of reading and then get in trouble because he was bored to tears. Only being allowed to read grade level books didn't help the situation. How much Junie B. Jones can one person tolerate?

Expecting a young child, especially a rough and tumble boy to read books quietly for hours and hours, broken up only by a worksheet that takes 5 minutes here and there and a 20 minute recess is inappropriate developmentally. Especially when you then take away the 20 minute recess because the child wasn't able to sit still and read for 4 hours before hand.

That child will now only read if required because he just hates it so much. I might still be bitter about this.

It is not appropriate - everyone with a gifted child knows that. Unfortunately teachers either won't or can't grasp that lecturing their friends, never learning anything and doing twice as much uninspiring work as everyone else is not what our children need. It is the mentality that means the only person who does ALL the maths problems is the person who didn't actually need to do any of them.

 

You are not the only one who is a bit bitter - nearly everyone with s gifted child has had similar experiences. "The child can read the same boring book as the test but write twice as much and do a presentation about it". Oh yes very helpful.

Edited March 22, 2018 by kiwik

[Janeway]

I do not know if the social or educational neglect would exceed that which happens at the public school. Where I live, the schools are well ranked. But, most parents have tutors for their kids and send them to academic camps during the summers. I have a kindergartener right now in public school and they are not doing handwriting, phonics, etc. She had no idea what a vowel was last week when I taught it to her myself. I oddly thought they would teach something when they had the kids all day. They send home readers and tell the parents to have the children read them. But, they never taught the phonics. I got told to just let her try to read it and if she cannot guess a word, then just tell her what it is. I guess they want her to just memorize every word? She really has not learned anything she did not already know how to do, so I guess this summer I will teach her. In the past, with the older kids, I have found teachers just letting the kids use their ipads all day and calculators. Too many teachers seem able to answer an email within minutes of you sending it. Walk down the hallways and you can see the teachers just sitting at their desks on the computers. Sure, they MIGHT just coincidentally be doing something school related during those moments. But there are some teachers (not all) who just don't bother to do their job. I would guess 25% or more. And about social neglect...several parents in my kindergarteners class have reported bullying being to a level where it is obvious to any visitor to the classroom who stays any amount of time. However, the teacher does nothing about it at all. She just ignores it and lets it go on. So..social neglect in public school...based on what I read in the news..probably passes 50%.

 

As for neglect for home schoolers? I rarely have associated with the sort that would neglect these things with their children. But I learned my lesson against judging. I had one friend who whenever I visited her, her kids just seemed to be arguing with each other or playing video games. At one point, when her older children were already 3rd or 4th grade, she told me her husband wanted her to get a math curriculum, but she was never good at math. I directed her to MUS. When the older kids were middle school age, maybe 7th grade (maybe 8th) for the oldest, she sent them to public school. So this is five children ranging from about 7th to 2nd grade, and not a single child was behind. What does this say about public school? If she could do so little all those years and then send them and they are not behind when compared to other public schoolers, then what were they doing in public school all day? Really...there has to be a word for the kind of neglect that happens when a child has joy and happiness and ability to move freely throughout the day when only 5 and 6 yrs old withheld. I am surprised at how happy and social and involved these kids are. And there was another where the parents just let the teen boy leave school (this was years ago) and she just said he refused to go and there was nothing she could do about it. I really thought she was in the wrong. But, he has now graduated college with honors.

 

I think when a public schooler fails, everyone shrugs. After all, they did what the main stream person does. No one gives a second thought to the public school student who ends up on drugs, committing crimes, or even the one who graduates but cannot make change for a dollar. No one puts a microscope on the schools and accuses the schools of neglect in any form. Heck, we seem to have students every year die from drug overdoses or suicide. If home schoolers had these issues, trust me, if it happened just once, people would rally around what is wrong with home schooling and blame home schooling.

 

The home schooler who is complaining about what they missed out on in high school is having a fantasy about the grass being greener on the other side. They view that they would have been one of the popular ones. And school would have been easy for them so they would not have struggled with grades. And they have never experienced the exhaustion of getting out of bed early just to sit in desks all day, getting up only about once an hour to walk to a different class. They have never had to sit alone at lunch feeling humiliated because they had no one to sit with. 

Edited March 22, 2018 by Janeway

[Janeway]

Even if everyone else had been a grade level many teachers consider tutoring your peers and reading quietly to be appropriate extension. Either that or more output.

And likewise, many unschoolers consider what they are doing to be of value. So it is just all about perspective. 

[HeartString]

It is not appropriate - everyone with a gifted child knows that. Unfortunately teachers either won't or can't grasp that lecturing their friends, never learning anything and doing twice as much uninspiring work as everyone else is not what our children need. It is the mentality that means the only person who does ALL the maths problems is the person who didn't actually need to do any of them.

 

You are not the only one who is a bit bitter - nearly everyone with s gifted child has had similar experiences. "The child can read the same boring book as the test but write twice as much and do a presentation about it". Oh yes very helpful.

Exactly! We were offered the option of letting him do each worksheet twice. Same worksheet. He spend most of that year in ISS reading and doing dumb busywork because his behavior was poor. We were told that if we would just let him be paddled he would act better. never mind that he was bored silly.. Grade skipping wasn't allowed. If sitting in ISS all day for nearly half a school year isn't educational neglect, I don't know what is.

[nixpix5]

It is not appropriate - everyone with a gifted child knows that. Unfortunately teachers either won't or can't grasp that lecturing their friends, never learning anything and doing twice as much uninspiring work as everyone else is not what our children need. It is the mentality that means the only person who does ALL the maths problems is the person who didn't actually need to do any of them.

 

You are not the only one who is a bit bitter - nearly everyone with s gifted child has had similar experiences. "The child can read the same boring book as the test but write twice as much and do a presentation about it". Oh yes very helpful.

I can relate to this so much! This was my poor gifted son in his brick and mortar private school in K.

 

I also saw this in the school I worked in. It was Montessori so kids were given weekly work checklists. Some bright kids would choose to work diligently and finish their work in the first half of the week so they could spend time at the end of the week on choice activities. What ended up happening was teachers would just give them more work or make them read or help peers. The subtle lesson learned was delaying gratification didn't work so they would take their free time at the beginning of the week by messing around and then cram all of their work into the end haphazardly. It completely killed their joy.

Edited March 22, 2018 by nixpix5

[nixpix5]

My oldest went to public school. In second grade, his teacher had so many kids she said who shouldn't have passed 1st, she didn't have any time for my smart kid. She had him tutor other students and let him read at his desk most of the time. He had over 1,500AR points. I was working at a public library at that point. He would have been much better served if he had come to work with me and hung out reading books at the library. And some people would call that educational neglect, but it would have been better than the public school - at least that year.

This was my DD'S experience. She is super bright and a hard worker. Her class was filled with kids who required alot of support behaviorally and intellectually. She was given "seat work" to keep her busy and even worse...she is such a well behaved and mature kid the teacher admitted to me they would seat her next to unruly kids so she could keep them calm. In 1st grade? Are you kidding me? I was so angry. She came home daily completely frazzled by her desk partners. To make it even worse, rows earned points for prizes and since she was always placed with kids with poor behavior they lost points for her row. I bristle at those externally driven behavior modification devices that do not work at all anyway. It does nothing to internalize choices. Just thinking back to that time makes my blood boil.