How Common is Educational Neglect Among Homeschoolers?

[Jean in Newcastle]

Feeding your child basic pb and j sandwiches is not neglect even when compared to feeding them filet mignon and chocolate dipped strawberries.  It's basic.  It might even be boring.  But it is not neglect. 

[vonfirmath]

I know that is the case here, but I wonder how many of the parents knee jerk-pulling their kids realize it. I'd hope the high school would tell them when they withdraw, but since you only have to send a letter here, I'd guess that doesn't necessarily happen. But it still would be on the parents to do the research rather than the school to forewarn them (unless asked directly) I guess. I spent months and months researching before we did it, but I wasn't in a place where my kid was in imminent danger or something that would cause me to make a quick reaction.

 

I do think it's unfair that the schools don't have a way to give credit to homeschool high school courses, but that's a whole other thread. 

 

The school DOES tell the parents pulling their kids that there could be a problem. But other homeschoolers jump in and tell the parent "Not to worry about it" and "They're just trying to scare you out of not pulling your kid" and when you are already upset with the school (which is why you are pulling the kid) -- you listen to the advice you want to hear.  This is going on one one of the groups I'm in right now.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

I don’t understand the utter disdain for dollar store workbooks. Esp for k - 3. There really is no difference between figuring out two plus two on cheap newsprint vs figuring it out on slick paper with color illustrations. Is that a rich vibrant way to teach? No. But they do cover the basic skills.

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I disagree. They are meant to be enrichment and practice for home, reinforcing the concepts the children are learning at school. It can work for K to 3 if Mom is pretty intuitive with the subject and can teach it, but if she's not, and especially if she just hands it to the kid and walks away, there are going to be massive holes in the foundation.

[Penelope]

I don’t understand the utter disdain for dollar store workbooks. Esp for k - 3. There really is no difference between figuring out two plus two on cheap newsprint vs figuring it out on slick paper with color illustrations. Is that a rich vibrant way to teach? No. But they do cover the basic skills.

 

 

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There is even one well-known homeschool publisher that uses one of these workbooks for first grade, and I think second. There is teaching of concepts sequenced and scheduled, though. It isn’t just “hand them a workbookâ€. And, a few of these type of workbooks are pretty good while others are pretty sparse and lacking.

[goldenecho]

If I can afford to, after I'm done teaching my own children, I'd love to offer free classes to other homeschoolers, at least in the subjects I'm best at.   Even though the schools near us aren't bad (not a good fit for my child who's homeschooling, but working well for my older two), I know in driving distance there's some places where the schools are much worse. 

 

 

Now here's why I don't talk about hsing IRL: I know why people pull their kids out of schools here.

There is no way I can say to a functionally illiterate mom, "You can't teach him, and you aren't teaching him, and what are you going to do to afford the missed meals, you owe it to him to enroll," when I know she took him out because test anxiety and bullying and inappropriate curriculum were destroying him! At age eight!

And the same veteran teacher who decries the homeschool failure, tells me she is sick at heart over the testing culture, that she can only manage about 2.5 months of actual instruction because of it, and that the test anxiety and excessive homework are harming her third graders...and the only reason she's still teaching is that she's reluctant to turn the children over to young teachers who have only learned these non-nurturing and ineffective methods...

And nowadays, what if I, personally, tell an obviously unfit hsing mom that she owes it to her child to put him in school - and he gets shot? Or bullied until he kills himself?

No way. Not me. I've got my head down, finishing raising my boys, saving my books for the grandchildren.
 

 

[eternalsummer]

Mine love these workbooks and it's mostly all they do in terms of what you might recognize as school until about age 7.  

 

Of course, from my perspective, there's a lot more going on - but it might not be something an outsider would recognize as school, and it varies by child.  Certainly it is not something the child recognizes as school.

 

I am not sure how you'd just give a 6 year old one of these workbooks and let them go, though, unless they can already read fluently (in which case I don't see much of a case for neglect).  For the most part, before fluent reading, I find you have to explain every single page.

[Jean in Newcastle]

Mine love these workbooks and it's mostly all they do in terms of what you might recognize as school until about age 7.  

 

Of course, from my perspective, there's a lot more going on - but it might not be something an outsider would recognize as school, and it varies by child.  Certainly it is not something the child recognizes as school.

 

I am not sure how you'd just give a 6 year old one of these workbooks and let them go, though, unless they can already read fluently (in which case I don't see much of a case for neglect).  For the most part, before fluent reading, I find you have to explain every single page.

 

Exactly. 

 

[Dmmetler]

We had this issue with our last pediatrician. She was disdainful and hostile when she found out we were homeschooling, and we'd gone to her for a couple of years at that point. She knew we weren't irresponsible wingnuts and all sorts of personal information and she still came across like there was no option but for it to all turn out as a total disaster because all homeschoolers were kooks. I cannot imagine what she would have done if she'd have had the power in her hands over our decision. I pushed back against her on early speech therapy for my son (with my ENT's support) and between that and the homeschooling, I was already worried she'd report me to CPS, much less if she had the power over a yearly report to the state. We switched pedi's after that and have, by total chance, ended up with a homeschooling, part-time pediatrician who is wonderful and supportive. But that was a fluke.

 

It made me very skeptical of putting that sort of power in doctor's hands.

I think I would be tempted to submit a camp physical (or sports physical) form-I have seen this child, they are reasonably healthy, here are any prescribed medications and limitations, here’s a copy of the shot record, done.

 

I have never done any program where I couldn’t just send the doctor’s office’s standard form instead of the official one and have it count, and I have to send that darned thing in to an average of three places a year.

[fralala]

Perhaps one of the reasons this discussion is difficult, and judging and trying to assess the work of classroom teachers and schools is also difficult, is that the work of those who are tasked with guiding children's education is inseparable from a child's work of learning. Part of learning to be a good teacher (or a good parent) involves the freedom to experiment and learn without being continually evaluated on the basis of your students' (or kids' progress).

 

Having seen the mistaken direction public schools have taken in the well-intentioned goal of making education equitable, one worries that sometimes we hurt kids when we set universal expectations about what and how children should be learning and take the responsibility for assessing, guiding, and teaching them away from the people who work with them directly on a daily basis.

 

I don't mean we should do nothing, but rather that the something we do to address this problem shouldn't be to emulate the mistakes of the system, where good people get judged and punished if they don't deliver certain results, and kids suffer from the good intentions of adults whose priorities, while not cruel, are somehow divorced from the actual experience of being a human child with unique genetic capabilities and limitations and a will.

[...................]

If I can afford to, after I'm done teaching my own children, I'd love to offer free classes to other homeschoolers, at least in the subjects I'm best at.   Even though the schools near us aren't bad (not a good fit for my child who's homeschooling, but working well for my older two), I know in driving distance there's some places where the schools are much worse. 

 

Annnnnnnnddd... then the whole can of worms of homeschool parents shoving students off on unsuspecting co-op teachers, and the students DO NOT DO THE WORK.  

 

At our co-op ( I talked to two teachers who've been there a long time, one for ten years and one for 5) and they said, by and large FIFTY PERCENT generally don't do the work.  

 

And this is a co-op which has a volunteer requirement, an in person interview with BOTH parents, and all students directly interviewed, and a 400.00 per family registration fee in addition to the fact that the classes aren't cheap. 

 

I've heard the number is closer to 30% at the local secular- unschooler when young, offeres high school classes when older group.  

[ScoutTN]

Yes. In many areas, including here, you have to decide to homeschool all the way through high school. Or if you do later decide to put them into public school it will have to be back in 9th grade. Even if they have gone through 11th grade in homeschool. Even if they are taking rigorous classes that will make the Tiger Moms swoon. And even if you have outside validation.

Yes, it's all or nothing here too.

In my state online public school is still public school, not homeschooling.

[Tsuga]

It sounds like you have some practical way that I can take responsibility for a portfolio evaluator who doesn't want to do her job because her friends won't like it and someone else will sign off anyway in Florida from my homeschool in northern New England. Or if not me, other homeschoolers. I'm all ears.

 

I've seen you suggest better data collection for policy purposes and in in agreement.

 

I really don't know what you want *us* to do though, to prevent educational neglect. The posts of mine you're quoting were completely about the evidently-common practice of points-of-contact between homeschoolers and "the system," to use the phrase of the poster who originally brought it up, failing to act ethically. Tell me what THAT has to do with the scattered homeschooling community

 

I am suggesting that just because we don't have a practical method that has been proven, doesn't mean that we shouldn't try.

 

The question posed is "how common is educational neglect" and a big portion of responses are not to that.

 

The responses are "we're not evaluating it well now and it will be really hard".

 

 

 

My way would be expensive and some people wouldn't like it and it wouldn't be perfect. Like literally every other program ever implemented. People will hate it. Everyone wants to be special. Everyone wants to be an exception. Everyone wants free stuff. Government costs money and everyone has to get in line.

 

Regarding what homeschoolers should do, if you want something done right, do it yourself. Form a committee, create statewide committees to recommend and advise on legislation, and as we do in a democracy, find the least horrific solution with the highest return for the lowest input.

 

If you don't, other people may do that for you. Just saying "nobody else should do anything because we don't have an answer that is solvable in 10 pages of answers on a message board" is not an acceptable solution.

 

Everyone serious knows that the plural of anecdotes is not data, okay, so... how do you get data? Start with that.

 

I guarantee you that if homeschoolers do not do this themselves, and kids die, someone else will do it.

[KathyBC]

+1 what tibbie said.

 

I know someone who took her kids out of school because they were being physically harmed in school. I don't think she's fallen to the level of educational neglect, but she could definitely do a lot better. But then the question is *so what?* Who gives a flying flip what I (or even the state) thinks about her homeschool when the alternative endangers her kids every day? Not me, not her. And rightfully so. I think she's doing her best and TBH I've seen people grow up to thrive having come from worse.

 

The desire to evaluate the state of things aspirationally instead of pragmatically should usually be avoided in these discussions, imo.

Another great quote

[...................]

Sometimes, I try to picture myself in the kids' shoes.  ....sometimes there are a few homeschool situations, when compared to even the little bit of bullying I experienced at public middle school, would have been very depressing....going into details would be too much...but picturing the kids in a situation that is so frustrating and /or depressing and not being able to leave it, most of the days, day in and day out...

 

 

BUT I feel the same way about many kids, in many schools.  NOt all.  I've seen underperforming schools back in Florida where kids were throwing up in the hallwaus during FCats and 3-5th graders got NO RECESS AT ALL for four MONTHS because they were behind on preparing for the FCats.  No art program.  Playground hideous, no swings, all clean, all up-to-date, all kept "safe"  but no humanity, all fear and worry and sterile.

 

I've also seen amazing schools in my current state, (my dd's bff went to one) where there was beautiful art all over the hallways, beautiful interesting multi cultural events, a librarian who knew all the children by name, the playground was on GRASS in a full acre with beautiful oak and maple trees all alone the edged, hilly lawn in addition to the regular playground equipment and they even had SWINGS, and a one hour per night homework policy all the way through 6th grade.  All the children looked happy, all of them!  Even though up to 10% of the student body had just transplanted from China, Japan, and Russia - they even had a fun student ambassador program where older students would buddy up with students "just in" from those countries.  If my husband would have agreed, and if we had lived in that district, I would happily send my kid there.  

 

In the first situation, an underperfoming, under-funded homeschool would be much better.  In the second situation, the school would be better...

Edited February 26, 2018 by Calming Tea

[maize]

Sometimes, I try to picture myself in the kids' shoes. ....sometimes there are a few homeschool situations, when compared to even the little bit of bullying I experienced at public middle school, would have been very depressing....going into details would be too much...but picturing the kids in a situation that is so frustrating and /or depressing and not being able to leave it, most of the days, day in and day out...

 

 

BUT I feel the same way about many kids, in many schools. NOt all. I've seen underperforming schools back in Florida where kids were throwing up in the hallwaus during FCats and 3-5th graders got NO RECESS AT ALL for four MONTHS because they were behind on preparing for the FCats. No art program. Playground hideous, no swings, all clean, all up-to-date, all kept "safe" but no humanity, all fear and worry and sterile.

 

I've also seen amazing schools in my current state, (my dd's bff went to one) where there was beautiful art all over the hallways, beautiful interesting multi cultural events, a librarian who knew all the children by name, the playground was on GRASS in a full acre with beautiful oak and maple trees all alone the edged, hilly lawn in addition to the regular playground equipment and they even had SWINGS, and a one hour per night homework policy all the way through 6th grade. All the children looked happy, all of them! Even though up to 10% of the student body had just transplanted from China, Japan, and Russia - they even had a fun student ambassador program where older students would buddy up with students "just in" from those countries. If my husband would have agreed, and if we had lived in that district, I would happily send my kid there.

 

In the first situation, an underperfoming, under-funded homeschool would be much better. In the second situation, the school would be better...

It depends somewhat on the student as well.

 

Some of the schools I attended as a kid were great schools.

 

And I was miserable.

 

You wouldn't have been able to tell by looking at me. Even my parents thought I was happy.

[ScoutTN]

Perhaps one of the reasons this discussion is difficult, and judging and trying to assess the work of classroom teachers and schools is also difficult, is that the work of those who are tasked with guiding children's education is inseparable from a child's work of learning. Part of learning to be a good teacher (or a good parent) involves the freedom to experiment and learn without being continually evaluated on the basis of your students' (or kids' progress).

 

Having seen the mistaken direction public schools have taken in the well-intentioned goal of making education equitable, one worries that sometimes we hurt kids when we set universal expectations about what and how children should be learning and take the responsibility for assessing, guiding, and teaching them away from the people who work with them directly on a daily basis.

 

I don't mean we should do nothing, but rather that the something we do to address this problem shouldn't be to emulate the mistakes of the system, where good people get judged and punished if they don't deliver certain results, and kids suffer from the good intentions of adults whose priorities, while not cruel, are somehow divorced from the actual experience of being a human child with unique genetic capabilities and limitations and a will.

 

Amen!

[Tsuga]

Your state probably has statutes regarding this that you can look up. I’ve looked up mine. If, as many people in this thread are doing, you are expanding neglect to mean a subpar education, then society has not agreed on a definition. It is not my business to push my definition on others.

 

I don't know if my state has a definition of neglect per se. I think it does have the definition of "basic education" and not providing that would be neglect. 

 

However, it's worth noting that our own legislature is currently being fined some ridiculous amount per day by our justices for not providing basic education to our children! So if you're considered a delinquent educator, no worries, you're in company with the entire department of education of the State of Washington. So you're not alone. :D

 

http://paramountduty.org/basic-education-defined/

 

In addition, I think "subpar" is much harder to define than neglect. Neglect is denial of what is needed to develop as a person. There, I gave my answer. I think every child deserves the education required to give them the choice to pursue further development as an adult without undue burden. I agree that's still nebulous, but what I mean is that children who do not have special needs should have an education that gets them to the starting level of community college, which in our country is the following level of education. That means you get them to college algebra or you get a diagnosis, hell or high water. You don't put them in a place where they will run out of Pell Grants before they graduate with an undergraduate degree just because they started so low. (Our state has extra funding for disabled students to get through college.) Community college is for any age, so you get them through Algebra I before pushing them out of the house (or get them a dx so they can get extra help from the state), and you're cool with me.

 

I do think that denying state services, which would allow a child to complete, say, calculus or trigonometry, in order to fulfill a parent's desire to homeschool or a legislature's desire to pay themselves more, is neglectful, yes, absolutely. Again, for the record, our state is in contempt of its own court for doing just that. Not all kids can finish trig, but all kids who can, should be prepared and encouraged to do so. Of course some able children will fail and common sense has to prevail there.

 

Shoutout Aside: Were it not for our community college system in the US, I think there would be a much greater burden on parents, but fortunately, we have a system that allows you, at 16, to essentially start with a clean slate, with no requirements, and with federal funding for the poor, to pursue almost any career from welding to a medical degree at Harvard or engineering at MIT (as evidenced by people that I know personally).

 

As for "not your business to push your definition on others", we live in a democracy ans we are all responsible for that. People are the building blocks of society. If the educated and the passionate do not push their definitions and engage in lively debate, the king is sleeping on the job. It is your business, and my business, to participate in the management of the budget of essential services. It is our responsibility to read the notice of public land use, to read the voter pamphlet, it is our business to determine where the roads go and how the funding for them is managed, whether it's sub-contracted to a private firm or whether the state hires the workers or whether prisoners do the work.

 

It is our business to decide what constitutes over-reach and what does not.

 

If you don't participate, you don't rule, and if you don't rule, "you" being the people, then it's not a DEMOcracy, it's rule by whoever does participate.

 

In our country's case, that is increasingly overseas and domestic economic interests.

 

And if anyone's expecting me to write national legislation on a message board or "it won't work", I think that's taking the easy way out. Obviously, the desire to do something is aspirational, and then comes the hard work. But just because someone hasn't solved it once and for all doesn't mean it can't be done.

 

And here's a scary thought. I participate pretty heavily in education discussions in my community and state.

 

If you don't decide, I will. Because I can and I care about every single child in my state getting an education that will allow them to make informed and real choices between many possible options for their adult life. Nobody should be denied what is required to have the same choices as others. Of course, I'm a dirty socialist so here I also believe in merit-based admission to college (without respect to finances), so I already know that a lot of people around here will disagree with that.

 

But again... if you don't want to push your opinions on others, no worries. I'll push mine.

 

Regarding how common is educational neglect, as many have pointed out, we don't know, because we don't really know what most people are doing

 

I personally do not support standardized testing as I believe children are not standard. I think that it leads schools to game the system (all systems WILL be gamed), and it also leads to differences being pathologized in order to make exceptions for poor performers. I'm not cool with that.

 

I think we should trust teachers and communities of teachers and PTSAs. I think homeschoolers should have to participate in some kind of community in which their kids and them are accountable. It can be their community--it should be their community. They don't have to meet every day. Make a homeschool group in your church!

 

For institutions, I think PTAs are incredibly important and should play a much larger role in evaluating the work teachers do. It's true that busybodies often create issues in these groups, but secret-ballot elections run by outsiders can mitigate that. It's still better than testing. Decentralizing management while enforcing specific requirements for process. It works. It's how our democracy works at many levels.

 

I have done this kind of work before, though primarily to ensure that education was delivered and the school just really existed. Where there was a strong group of involved parents and teachers, there were solutions. They patched the cracks. They fixed it for themselves. They found cheaters, truants, liars, and they also had their own systems of rewards.

 

And if you don't want to join a group then you get sucked into the state-level group and we'll assign you a group.

 

So there, that's my all-up opinion. There's my plan.

[...................]

Sounds good to me.

[Jean in Newcastle]

Tsuga, I think you and I have such fundamentally different beliefs about the role of government, the role of the family, and even what it means to be a flourishing human being, that I don’t know that we can even profitably have a discussion about this.

Honestly, I don’t want to. It only takes a matter of minutes to look up your state law on this, and you didn’t bother. I don’t care about Tsuga’s definition of neglect. You’re talking in your previous post about kids dying...seriously? From educational neglect? You have a lot of passion but I’ve lost respect for your opinions. I’m not engaging you on this anymore.

And by the way, I do keep up with the news, I vote, I contact my representatives. I just don’t do those things for the purpose of pushing my educational opinions on other families...I do it to push back against people like you.

Spudz, I live in the same state as Tsuga. There is no specific definition in our state law of educational neglect. There is homeschool law and private school law and public school law but other than certain requirements for each, the law just says that neglect will be decided in court on a case by case basis. Which actually I think is fine. I think that the state recognizes that circumstances can be complicated. Which of course some of us have been trying to point out over and over again in this thread. (I’m pretty sure that you agree with me on that. )

[Tsuga]

Tsuga, I think you and I have such fundamentally different beliefs about the role of government, the role of the family, and even what it means to be a flourishing human being, that I don’t know that we can even profitably have a discussion about this.

Honestly, I don’t want to. It only takes a matter of minutes to look up your state law on this, and you didn’t bother. I don’t care about Tsuga’s definition of neglect. You’re talking in your previous post about kids dying...seriously? From educational neglect? You have a lot of passion but I’ve lost respect for your opinions. I’m not engaging you on this anymore.

And by the way, I do keep up with the news, I vote, I contact my representatives. I just don’t do those things for the purpose of pushing my educational opinions on other families...I do it to push back against people like you.

Er, I can't invent legislation for my state. If I can't find a state definition for neglect then I will present one.

 

I did present the relevant law to this discussion with a link to an explanation.

 

Either you are unable to follow the simplest of arguments, or you are not participating in good faith. I'm guessing it's the latter.

 

And I'll say it again: first in wins. Be prepared because if you don't write the laws someone else will and we live in a country with precedent law, and courts are expensive.

 

History has not been kind to regressive oppositions. But it does favor people who get in the game to make themselves heard proactively.

 

You (ok bud) said you weren't talking to me further. I get it. This is not for you personally.

[lailasmum]

I've known a few families over the years that I think of as being educationally neglectful but I live in an area with predominantly more radical unschoolers and I think those families who don't do anything hide out amongst that group easily. Most of the kids ended up in school reasonably young either because the parents had a sudden awakening or in one case the kids were taken into care (obviously not just for that reason). I know one family now who I think are not educating and hiding in unschooling. I've known the kids for years and the family just about got by for a long time because the eldest is really self-motivated. Eldest is now an adult who struggles to get a job because she lacks basic qualifications and wants to do something she can't even start to work towards. Their youngest child is much younger and hasn't had anything that could be called an education by any method, he's angry at his parents and mum (now on her own) doesn't seem to care enough that it motivates her to do anything. I hadn't seen them for a few years and hadn't realised how bad things had got. Even with my experience of those families I still think it represents a small number of home educators, I just happen to live in an area that already has problems with rural poverty and all the issues that come with that. People think they can do better than the mediocre local schools but don't realise the effort they need to put in. 

[fralala]

 

In addition, I think "subpar" is much harder to define than neglect. Neglect is denial of what is needed to develop as a person. There, I gave my answer. I think every child deserves the education required to give them the choice to pursue further development as an adult without undue burden. I agree that's still nebulous, but what I mean is that children who do not have special needs should have an education that gets them to the starting level of community college, which in our country is the following level of education.

 

Well, I wonder if in this quest to rid homeschooling of its bad elements we would also void it of what makes it joyful, inspired, and child-centered. Because many homeschoolers believe part of "making the choice to pursue further development as an adult without undue burden" involves deep engagement with learning. Rather than nudging our children down a linear path based upon the idea that there are certain things that must be learned by certain cut-offs, we answer their questions on the fly and go off on rabbit trails and try not to do the kind of fear-based instruction that makes kids hate school. We want to teach them to become confident and passionate lifelong learners. We pay attention when we feel like the educational demands we are placing on them are getting in the way of their development as mentally and emotionally healthy people.

 

Like you, I think the answers to this question also resides in our communities. (I'm thinking too about resources like The Homeschool Alliance-- resources that recognize homeschooling parents as people who deserve support and information about learning and the science of teaching.) But speaking of the Alliance, I should also note that by your definition, a person like Julie Bogart would likely meet the standards of educational neglect. (Listen to her latest podcast if you're unsure.)

[Jean in Newcastle]

Can't snip sorry.

 

What? I did *not* say I wasn't talking to anyone anymore!

She was supposed to be responding to Spudtater

[...................]

Maybe Bud and Spud were too confusing 

 

:) 

[Jean in Newcastle]

The problem is that we are talking about a subject that has a spectrum.  So where on the spectrum does the label "educational neglect" come into play?  The second problem is that education by nature is not a one way street.  It isn't just about what is presented and how.  It is also about how it is received.  And not all learners receive things equally - some times because they can't.  The third problem is that the human will is involved esp. on the part of the learner.  It takes humility to be teachable.  And it takes some degree of ownership. 

 

When someone says that their education was inadequate, where was the problem? 

 

Was the material not presented at all?  (Most would agree that this fits the "educational neglect" category.)  Was the material that was presented "not enough"?  (This is where it starts to get more subjective because what should be presented to what degree at what time?  Different educational philosophies even outside of homeschool circles don't always agree on progression of content and depth.  Edited to say that I think that the line is probably somewhere in here but not as high as some on this thread would like to place it.)  Was the material presented but in a "bad" way?  (Again - subjective.  Bad for whom?  You can generally find some learner who will be able to learn in the most unlikely of circumstances.  And some presentations might be good for the majority but bad for individual students.  And some learn to deal with material that is presented in a way that is not their specific learning style and still learn anyway.) 

 

Was the material presented but not received?  How do you determine if it was received?  How much time is reasonable to figure out that A) there is a problem and B) exactly where the problem lies and C) how to fix the problem.  A lot of homeschoolers and private schoolers and public schoolers "waste" a lot of time in this area.  Sometimes years.  Where is the cut off between "we're doing our best to figure this out under the circumstances" and "you neglectful person (or school)"? 

 

Was the material presented and received but the learner still refuses to learn it?  Is it always the fault of the teacher?  Can every single student be reached if we just find the magic educational bullet?  Do students have any control over their attitude?  Should we ever hold them accountable for their attitude?  And how would that even work?

Edited February 27, 2018 by Jean in Newcastle

[shinyhappypeople]

The problem is that we are talking about a subject that has a spectrum.  So where on the spectrum does the label "educational neglect" come into play?  The second problem is that education by nature is not a one way street.  It isn't just about what is presented and how.  It is also about how it is received.  And not all learners receive things equally - some times because they can't.  The third problem is that the human will is involved esp. on the part of the learner.  It takes humility to be teachable.  And it takes some degree of ownership. 

 

When someone says that their education was inadequate, where was the problem? 

 

Was the material not presented at all?  (Most would agree that this fits the "educational neglect" category.)  Was the material that was presented "not enough"?  (This is where it starts to get more subjective because what should be presented to what degree at what time?  Different educational philosophies even outside of homeschool circles don't always agree on progression of content and depth.  Edited to say that I think that the line is probably somewhere in here but not as high as some on this thread would like to place it.)  Was the material presented but in a "bad" way?  (Again - subjective.  Bad for whom?  You can generally find some learner who will be able to learn in the most unlikely of circumstances.  And some presentations might be good for the majority but bad for individual students.  And some learn to deal with material that is presented in a way that is not their specific learning style and still learn anyway.) 

 

Was the material presented but not received?  How do you determine if it was received?  How much time is reasonable to figure out that A) there is a problem and B) exactly where the problem lies and C) how to fix the problem.  A lot of homeschoolers and private schoolers and public schoolers "waste" a lot of time in this area.  Sometimes years.  Where is the cut off between "we're doing our best to figure this out under the circumstances" and "you neglectful person (or school)"? 

 

Was the material presented and received but the learner still refuses to learn it?  Is it always the fault of the teacher?  Can every single student be reached if we just find the magic educational bullet?  Do students have any control over their attitude?  Should we ever hold them accountable for their attitude?  And how would that even work?

 

Yes, this.  Exactly.  It's complicated.

 

Really, everyone needs to read Educated and listen to stories of homeschool alums with open minds and hearts.  The extreme educational neglect described in the book provides a useful starting point for our thinking.  Thinking about what would have helped the author and her siblings in terms of education is what informed my ideas about educational neglect and minimal basic standards.  She had never heard of the Holocaust.  What the ...  And this happened in America where she supposedly had the right to a basic education.

 

My "work in progress" definition of educational neglect in homeschool is "big picture."  It assumes not just a few busy months or even a year that sucks.  It assumes that the parent, over a long period of time, is not making a reasonable effort to ensure that the child is gaining at least the minimum skills/knowledge s/he will need to function as an adult, and/or the parent is significantly interfering with the child's education.

 

For a typical child (ie no LDs) that would mean reading at a high school level, able to write a few coherent paragraphs about a topic,  possess a basic level of historical, scientific, and cultural literacy, math skills through Algebra 1.  This isn't a high standard, and most of us provide more than that for our kids, but it's high enough that these children aren't crippled by a lack of education.  There is no excuse for a NT homeschool graduate to lack basic literacy and numeracy skills.  None. 

 

For kids with LDs, most can achieve the minimums above (or close to it).  I think the parent needs to be actually working with the child to help them reach their potential.  I'm in the thick of it right now, and it can be really hard at times.  

Edited February 27, 2018 by shinyhappypeople

[Jean in Newcastle]

Yes, this.  Exactly.  It's complicated.

 

Really, everyone needs to read Educated and listening to stories of homeschool alums with open minds and hearts.  The extreme educational neglect described in the book provides a useful starting point for our thinking.  Thinking about would have helped the author and her siblings in terms of education is what informed my ideas about educational neglect and minimal basic standards.  She had never heard of the Holocaust.  What the ...  And this happened in America where she supposedly had the right to a basic education.

 

My "work in progress" definition of educational neglect in homeschool is "big picture."  It assumes not just a few busy months or even a year that sucks.  It assumes that the parent, over a long period of time, is not making a reasonable effort to ensure that the child is gaining at least the minimum skills/knowledge s/he will need to function as an adult, and/or the parent is significantly interfering with the child's education.

 

For a typical child (ie no LDs) that would mean reading at a high school level, able to write a few coherent paragraphs about a topic,  possess a basic level of historical, scientific, and cultural literacy, math skills through Algebra 1.  This isn't a high standard, and most of us provide more than that for our kids, but it's high enough that these children aren't crippled by a lack of education.  There is no excuse for a NT homeschool graduate to lack basic literacy and numeracy skills.  None. 

 

For kids with LDs, most can achieve the minimums above (or close to it).  I think the parent needs to be actually working with the child to help them reach their potential.  I'm in the thick of it right now, and it can be really hard at times.  

Another wrinkle is that what is neglect at one age (due to not presenting materials) is going to vary by age.  A 8 year old who has never heard of the Holocaust is not unusual and I doubt that most would say has suffered any neglect.  A high school graduate who hasn't heard of it might be - but some of it depends on whether they've learned any other history.  Otherwise you could say that anyone who has any holes in their education (and most of us have some either because the  material was presented and we have forgotten it or it got missed for whatever reason) has had their education neglected.  Most of us don't say that - we just say "oops.  We have a hole in our education there.  Let's learn the material now." 

 

By pointing this out, I'm not saying that there aren't parents who have neglected to educate their kids (often past ________ grade). And I agree that basic literacy and numeracy skills is especially crucial.

 

edited because I hit send too soon.

Edited February 27, 2018 by Jean in Newcastle

[Arcadia]

My oldest is not a US citizen and he falls under the compulsory education law in our home country. As a homeschooler, he is supposed to pass the 6th grade national exams in the calendar year that he turns 12. Since we are overseas, there is no way for him to sit for the national exams and it wouldn’t be an issue unless we move back before he turns 16 (compulsory education law age cutoff). My friend’s son is diagnosed as dyslexic and has a waiver. Her dyslexic homeschool son is not expected to be at the same level as a 12 year old 6th grader when he is in 6th grade according to national birthday cutoffs.

 

Since a 6th grade national certificate is unofficially required for my generation (born in the 70s and after) to work for McDonald’s, it’s not that high a standard to ask for a homeschooler to be able to pass the exams. 98.4% of public school kids passed those national standardized exams last year. It is hard to score high but not hard to pass.

 

So unless there are special circumstances like my friend had a stroke, was in coma for some time and then bedridden, I would be inclined to think educational neglect if a homeschool child with no LDs was not taught enough to get at least a pass grade for the national 6th grade exams. I do have a public school nephew who refuses to learn and it was a slog for his teachers. He would literally fail exams because he doesn’t care. He is extremely street smart and none of us are worried about his future.

[KungFuPanda]

The problem with this is that most "unschoolers" are anti-standardized testing. Even if faced with the fact that a teenager hasn't mastered elementary school math, they are more likely to dismiss the test and cling to the belief that the child will magically one day wake up and decide that he/she wants to learn math and master it quickly (which a bright child without any LD's probably can but a LOT of kids cannot).

Yeah, just like if you don’t teach kids to do chores they’ll just magically decide to clean the house one day. Nobody ever left home without those skills. 🤣

[LMD]

Okay, I only know about the Holocaust through my cultural literacy - movies, news, reading on my own etc. I never learned about it at school. We had hardly any history, unless you took an elective in high school (I didn't.)

My education was not neglectful. I graduated top 15% of my state.

 

This is the difficulty in drawing a line. How sheltered is too sheltered? Of course this can be exacerbated by homeschooling but it is not the direct cause or consequence of homeschooling.

[maize]

Okay, I only know about the Holocaust through my cultural literacy - movies, news, reading on my own etc. I never learned about it at school. We had hardly any history, unless you took an elective in high school (I didn't.)

My education was not neglectful. I graduated top 15% of my state.

 

This is the difficulty in drawing a line. How sheltered is too sheltered? Of course this can be exacerbated by homeschooling but it is not the direct cause or consequence of homeschooling.

I don't remember ever discussing the holocaust at school.

 

What I knew of it came from my own outside reading.

Edited February 27, 2018 by maize

[vonfirmath]

I don't remember ever discussing the holocaust at school.

 

What I knew of it came from my own outside reading.

 

I read Anne Frank at school so I'm sure we discussed the Holocaust to some extent. But I remember more about it from my outside reading than from school.

[MerryAtHope]

NT! Obviously my remark was so far out of context that it didn't make sense in the flow of conversation. Sorry about that  :tongue_smilie: . No need to think I equate weeding with educational neglect :).

 

Edited February 28, 2018 by MerryAtHope

[...................]

Wow.

[Jean in Newcastle]

LOL! But actually, you'd be surprised at the number of kids who do leave home without basic life skills like this. When my dh and I were in our 20's, we had to hire college kids to work at a camp we ran. We met kids who had never cleaned the bathroom at home, never did dishes, never cleaned their own rooms (seriously?!!!), never weeded a garden, never painted anything...it was truly shocking to us the lack of basic life skills so many kids had! We truly had to start from scratch with instruction--there wasn't a foundation to build on there. 

 

But those things are not hard for adults (or young adults) to learn.  Set them up with a checklist.  Show them how.  It shouldn't take them very long to show each task.  They have the small and large motor skills to handle tools appropriately and the memory to handle step by step instructions (or to intuit them).  It's a bit different than lack of basic literacy or numeracy skills which take longer to learn.  Same with a hole in learning about something like the Holocaust.  An in depth knowledge takes longer but a basic explanation of what happened can be given in five minutes. 

[maize]

But those things are not hard for adults (or young adults) to learn. Set them up with a checklist. Show them how. It shouldn't take them very long to show each task. They have the small and large motor skills to handle tools appropriately and the memory to handle step by step instructions (or to intuit them). It's a bit different than lack of basic literacy or numeracy skills which take longer to learn. Same with a hole in learning about something like the Holocaust. An in depth knowledge takes longer but a basic explanation of what happened can be given in five minutes.

Right.

 

Basic literacy is probably the first hallmark of adequate education.

 

A child without major learning disabilities should be taught to read. I've known some late bloomers who, in spite of school instruction, did not learn to read until age 11 or 12 but after that did not struggle. I think that would be the upper limit of my tolerance for waiting.

 

A child with dyslexia is another matter; I think teaching and remediation need to happen, but I wouldn't judge the adequacy of teaching by results.

 

For numeracy, again assuming no learning disability, a minimum standard for "adequate" grade school education would perhaps be pre-algebra level. A kid who grasps arithmetic can move forward with further learning as an adult if necessary. A bit lower--maybe 4th grade level--would still be remediable. It would be really hard to enter adulthood with nothing beyond second or third grade arithmetic.

 

For a child with serious dyscalculia I would think the goal should be practical math skills and adaptations to manage daily life.

 

There WILL be holes in content subjects. Different educational paths will just result in different holes.

[frogger]

I don't remember ever discussing the holocaust at school.

 

What I knew of it came from my own outside reading.

I'm sure my memory is off but it seems we always started with pilgrims, hit the Revolution, and ended with the civil war while somehow skipping presidents 4-15. It felt like we did this every year without going in depth. I don't know how they managed to fill the time.

[mamamoose]

Another wrinkle is that what is neglect at one age (due to not presenting materials) is going to vary by age. A 8 year old who has never heard of the Holocaust is not unusual and I doubt that most would say has suffered any neglect. A high school graduate who hasn't heard of it might be - but some of it depends on whether they've learned any other history. Otherwise you could say that anyone who has any holes in their education (and most of us have some either because the material was presented and we have forgotten it or it got missed for whatever reason) has had their education neglected. Most of us don't say that - we just say "oops. We have a hole in our education there. Let's learn the material now."

 

By pointing this out, I'm not saying that there aren't parents who have neglected to educate their kids (often past ________ grade). And I agree that basic literacy and numeracy skills is especially crucial.

 

edited because I hit send too soon.

I was talking with a friend’s daughter today and she didn’t know what a thesaurus was. She’s 7th grade. But she knew synonyms and antonyms and we were playing a fun game with them. Her vocabulary is excellent. My kids might not call that period of time he holocaust but they have a really good idea what genocide is and understand that it was bigger than Jews in germany. I don’t think I knew that graduating from public high school. So...are they even holes? It’s so hard to say!

[North Coast School]

OK. Sorry.

Edited February 28, 2018 by North Coast School

[Jean in Newcastle]

Here's a definition of neglect:

ne·glect

nəˈɡlekt/

 

verb

verb: neglect; 3rd person present: neglects; past tense: neglected; past participle: neglected; gerund or present participle: neglecting

•  

   

  1.

   

   

  fail to care for properly.

  "the old churchyard has been sadly neglected"

  synonyms: fail to look after, leave alone, abandon, desert; More

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

antonyms: cherish, look after

 

 

not pay proper attention to; disregard.

"you neglect our advice at your peril"

synonyms: pay no attention to, let slide, not attend to, be remiss about, be lax about, leave undone, shirk More

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

antonyms: concentrate on, heed

 

fail to do something.

"he neglected to write to her"

synonyms: fail, omit, forget

 

 

"I neglected to inform her"

antonyms: remember

 

noun

noun: neglect

•  

   

  1.

   

   

  the state or fact of being uncared for.

  "animals dying through disease or neglect"

  synonyms: disrepair, dilapidation, deterioration, shabbiness, disuse, abandonment;

   

   

  raredesuetude

  "the place had an air of neglect"

   

•  

  the action of not taking proper care of someone or something.

  "she was accused of child neglect"

  synonyms: disregard of/for, ignoring of, overlooking of; More

   

   

   

   

   

  antonyms: attention

•  

  failure to do something.

  "he was reported for neglect of duty"

  synonyms: negligence, dereliction of duty, carelessness, heedlessness, unconcern, laxity, slackness, irresponsibility;

   

   

  formaldelinquency

  "her doctor was guilty of neglect"

  antonyms: care

 

How does this add to the conversation? I don’t think that any if us fail to understand the dictionary definition of neglect. That definition does nothing to define exactly what constitutes neglect in an educational setting whether it is the home or not.

[mamamoose]

LOL! But actually, you'd be surprised at the number of kids who do leave home without basic life skills like this. When my dh and I were in our 20's, we had to hire college kids to work at a camp we ran. We met kids who had never cleaned the bathroom at home, never did dishes, never cleaned their own rooms (seriously?!!!), never weeded a garden, never painted anything...it was truly shocking to us the lack of basic life skills so many kids had! We truly had to start from scratch with instruction--there wasn't a foundation to build on there.

 

Ummmm, I’ve never lived anywhere there was a garden and most certainly haven’t weeded one, and I live in the country. I am certainly not neglected.

[Crimson Wife]

Yes, this.  Exactly.  It's complicated.

 

Really, everyone needs to read Educated and listen to stories of homeschool alums with open minds and hearts.  The extreme educational neglect described in the book provides a useful starting point for our thinking.  Thinking about what would have helped the author and her siblings in terms of education is what informed my ideas about educational neglect and minimal basic standards.  She had never heard of the Holocaust.  What the ...  And this happened in America where she supposedly had the right to a basic education.

 

I've had my kids claim to my face that they had "never heard of _____" only to have me pull off a particular textbook/resource that they acknowledge completing to show them that yes, we did cover the topic in question. I did this yesterday with my DE 10th grader who claims that I never covered cellular respiration with her (she's studying for an exam). It just went WHOOOSH in one ear and out the other.

 

[frogger]

I've had my kids claim to my face that they had "never heard of _____" only to have me pull off a particular textbook/resource that they acknowledge completing to show them that yes, we did cover the topic in question. I did this yesterday with my DE 10th grader who claims that I never covered cellular respiration with her (she's studying for an exam). It just went WHOOOSH in one ear and out the other.

 

Ha ha

 

That sounds so familar in fact it happened today.

 

"You never told me that."

 

"That's strange here is a whole workbook covering the matter, that we did together last month and it's filled with your handwriting."

 

This may explain my memory of what I learned in school though. Oops

[MerryAtHope]

But those things are not hard for adults (or young adults) to learn.  Set them up with a checklist.  Show them how.  It shouldn't take them very long to show each task.  They have the small and large motor skills to handle tools appropriately and the memory to handle step by step instructions (or to intuit them).  It's a bit different than lack of basic literacy or numeracy skills which take longer to learn.  Same with a hole in learning about something like the Holocaust.  An in depth knowledge takes longer but a basic explanation of what happened can be given in five minutes. 

 

 

Right.

 

 

Ummmm, I’ve never lived anywhere there was a garden and most certainly haven’t weeded one, and I live in the country. I am certainly not neglected.

 

 

I never said they were difficult to learn, nor did I ever say it was part of "educational" neglect. Please don't read into my comment :-). I'll grant that it was a "sidebar" to this conversation though! Someone made the comment that kids don't leave home without the skills to do chores--and I merely responded to that specific comment (hence my quote of what I was responding to) that indeed they do. I will say, as someone who had to employ people without such very basic skills, that the lack of work ethic that comes with not having been made to do chores as they grew up impacted their desirability as employees far more than just the simple lack of know-how. Most who didn't work as kids didn't really want to work as young adults, had little stamina, had no sense of a thorough job no matter how many times they were shown...hopefully they learned somewhere along the way though! We tried our best with them for an entire summer but there were many we just couldn't rehire the next year even though we liked them as people. It was a very different scenario from simply never having weeded but knowing how to do other chores, or at least being willing to learn and work. 

[eternalsummer]

I didn't do any chores as a child.  I didn't clean my room or do dishes or vacuum.  I had to learn how to use a mop at my first job (as a dog washer).  

 

Miraculously, I was a diligent worker. :)  I had no problem transitioning to an adult's responsibilities with work and home life, although it did take me a couple of years to learn how to cook more than frozen pizzas and eggs.

[AdventuresinHomeschooling]

I am going to present a different perspective. I think the wild popularity of curriculum options, online classes, co-op communities, homeschool resources and programs such as charter schools, CC and WTM would not be there if the homeschool community was largely practicing neglect. The fact that there is such a growing market is evidence that most homeschoolers want a robust education for their children. I would posit that there are some people in this community who may use homeschooling as a cover for neglect, but I would also posit that this percentage is not significantly greater than those in the system who abuse and neglect. Statistics would be hard to measure, but this is my best theory. I don't believe there's any significant correlation between homeschooling and neglect, and I certainly don't believe that there is any causation. I think this is the crux of the argument.

 

As we determine what oversight should or should be not on homeschoolers to ensure the safety of children, I think it's important to remember the cost of freedom for that safety net. Why punish the majority for the minority? This comes down to a fundamental belief that can be seen in many current national arguments. Personally, I follow the Benjamin Franklin quote on the matter: "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither." Homeschooling and its freedoms are not the enemy here, and they shouldn't be targeted as potential monsters just because it was one factor in one couple who were monsters to their children.

[vonfirmath]

I've had my kids claim to my face that they had "never heard of _____" only to have me pull off a particular textbook/resource that they acknowledge completing to show them that yes, we did cover the topic in question. I did this yesterday with my DE 10th grader who claims that I never covered cellular respiration with her (she's studying for an exam). It just went WHOOOSH in one ear and out the other.

 

 

Yep.  That's why I phrased mine as "We must have discussed it but I don't remember it"  You get past the test and only some of the stuff will stick. Doesn't mean it wasn't covered.

[HS Mom in NC]

LOL! But actually, you'd be surprised at the number of kids who do leave home without basic life skills like this. When my dh and I were in our 20's, we had to hire college kids to work at a camp we ran. We met kids who had never cleaned the bathroom at home, never did dishes, never cleaned their own rooms (seriously?!!!), never weeded a garden, never painted anything...it was truly shocking to us the lack of basic life skills so many kids had! We truly had to start from scratch with instruction--there wasn't a foundation to build on there. 

 

Do you seriously think wedding a garden is a life skill most kids should have? Everyone lives in a house with dishes, bedrooms and bathrooms.  The percentage of kids in America living at a home with a garden is incredibly low in general and, depending on region, even rarer.

 

[Skippy]

For the purpose of my post, I will soften the phrase to a parent's educational indifference instead of neglect. I don't know if there is really a solution to this problem.

 

Often the solution offered for an indifferent homeschooling parent is to put that child in a public school. But students who excel in public schools are usually the ones whose parents are devoted to their success. Those whose parents are indifferent usually underperform in public schools.

 

Here is my anecdotal perspective. For the most part, my homeschooling friends have been very conscientious concerning their children's educations. But one lady I know removed her child from public school to homeschool him because he was not progressing as he should. But after she brought him home, she did not really do much with him, so he didn't progress at home either. Additionally, the public schools did not do an adequate job teaching her older son the basics of reading or arithmetic, and he is struggling as an adult.

 

So I don't see what the solution is for the younger child. Sending him to the local public schools doesn't seem to be the solution, and homeschooling doesn't seem to be the solution. I don't have the answer.

 

Academically, I feel like usually the common denominator in a child's success is the parents' devotion to their success. Whether that is public school or the many varied ways of homeschooling. Even if the parent is not brilliant, the child can achieve success because the parent makes sure that the child does his public school trigonometry homework or completes her homeschool chemistry DVD lesson.

 

Is there any solution for a child whose parent is indifferent?

[...................]

As they say, it all starts in the home.