Katy Posted July 29, 2017 Share Posted July 29, 2017 I actually really don't think that's the case. He is perfectly capable of focusing and managing when he deems it important to do so. For example, he has exactly zero issues with inattentiveness or missing deadlines or anything similar when he's at work. Ever since he was little, he's been capable of spending hours at theatre and dance rehearsals and behaving (much better than his peers) backstage. He plans, designs and executes zillions of projects of his choice, with admirable attention to detail. The difference is that he likes doing those things. He just isn't interested in managing paperwork for school. Everyone with ADHD can hyperfocus on things they are interested in, they just cannot do it for things that don't interest them. This is hallmark executive function issues for really bright kids. Seriously, look into innattentive type ADHD. It is something he can be trained out of with cognitive therapy, but it isn't his fault. It isn't a matter of willpower. 14 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regentrude Posted July 29, 2017 Share Posted July 29, 2017 It absolutely is about executive function. Executive function deficits lead to bad decision making. When faced with a task that feels overwhelming it is easier to do nothing or something else. It very much looks like choosing not to do something when the reality is they are paralysed and need help finding that starting point. And through out the process. All the demands, yelling, tough love, compassion, or lack of compassion will not succeed. You don't get to decide when you have enabled enough. Executive function is for life and some people need help for a very long time, especially if they are not getting the coaching or other assistance they need. OK, then please explain to me how the OP's description "He is perfectly capable of focusing and managing when he deems it important to do so. For example, he has exactly zero issues with inattentiveness or missing deadlines or anything similar when he's at work. Ever since he was little, he's been capable of spending hours at theatre and dance rehearsals and behaving (much better than his peers) backstage. He plans, designs and executes zillions of projects of his choice, with admirable attention to detail. " meshes with executive functioning deficits. Can a person with executive function deficits choose to be attentive and detail oriented at will? 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crimson Wife Posted July 29, 2017 Share Posted July 29, 2017 His mother said he has the ability and is simply "not interested" in following through. I am suggesting she force him to finish the measly three credits he is lacking so that he has the piece of paper, and then let him be. I don't see why that is so harsh. He's capable and just needs a kick in the butt to get his act together. ETA: It might be different for a family that is independently wealthy where a few more years of tuition without tangible results don't matter. The OP is not that in that category. I agree with this assessment. I don't think Jenny should be pushing the bachelor's because that's going to be another 60 or so units and my strong suspicion is that he's not really interested in doing it at this stage of his life. Which is a perfectly okay thing to feel! However, with him being so close to completing the associates, he needs to suck it up and just push through it. And if that takes "helicopter mom" to make happen, so be it. 11 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katy Posted July 29, 2017 Share Posted July 29, 2017 meshes with executive functioning deficits. Can a person with executive function deficits choose to be attentive and detail oriented at will? Yes - hyperfocus for things you're interested in and no follow through for things you're not is common. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crimson Wife Posted July 29, 2017 Share Posted July 29, 2017 And as for the "what does it matter if he gets the associate's or not?" question, even if the degree is not actually required for a job, having it demonstrates a certain basic level of academic ability and work ethic. If I'm a hiring manager and see two 19 y.o. applicants with similar experience but one has an associate's while the other just has a high school diploma, I'm going to prioritize the one with an associate's for an interview. 15 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoobie Posted July 29, 2017 Share Posted July 29, 2017 (edited) Another vote for executive function issue. Sounds like classic inattentive-type ADHD. He used all of his executive function ability on that one thing and there's no more left for anything else. That's why CEOs and artists have executive assistants and "people" to handle all the extraneous details while they focus on the One Thing. He is still very young. Although you're thinking of him as what should be a college junior, age/maturity wise, he could be barely a high school graduate. You'd help a freshman tick the boxes and get set up, right? It sounds incredibly frustrating, but it's so important to his options in the future. I think I would regret not helping (even though I'd be internally ranting about it) if this wound up hindering him later. You've put so much work in to get him to this stage. You're almost over the top of the hill! Edited July 29, 2017 by zoobie 10 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kewb Posted July 29, 2017 Share Posted July 29, 2017 OK, then please explain to me how the OP's description "He is perfectly capable of focusing and managing when he deems it important to do so. For example, he has exactly zero issues with inattentiveness or missing deadlines or anything similar when he's at work. Ever since he was little, he's been capable of spending hours at theatre and dance rehearsals and behaving (much better than his peers) backstage. He plans, designs and executes zillions of projects of his choice, with admirable attention to detail. " meshes with executive functioning deficits. Can a person with executive function deficits choose to be attentive and detail oriented at will? Executive function doesn't mean you can't focus or meet deadlines. Her son does these things because he gets the reward. He knows what is expected and how to do it. And because he gets the reward and sees the big picture he can focus and do it. Choosing not to follow through is a bad decision. Hallmark of executive function. He knows he has to do this but he can't see the big picture and does not see the immediate reward. Even though it seems obvious what the reward is to him it is not. It is exasperating. Which is why the testing is important. To find out where the issue is and to learn how to work around them. My son has been a lifeguard since he was 15. Met deadlines for college classes took during high school. When it comes to something like "clean your room". Incapable. He simply doesn't know where to start and then will go do something that has more immediate rewards such as play a video game. If I say to him "hang up the clean clothes on your chair" he will do it. He has difficulty with time management and organization. Signs of executive function deficits. We did not have our son tested when he was homeschooled because it wasn't necessary. His first year of college showed us that he needed to be tested. He needed the testing to get services such as more time for tests. It has been a long frustrating road with my son. His executive function deficits didn't manifest as a problem until sophomore year of high school. What I thought was laziness and needed tough love was actually a symptom of the help he needed. 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RootAnn Posted July 29, 2017 Share Posted July 29, 2017 I have been following your son, Jenny, since you guys decided to graduate him early & send him off to school. I remember at least two (maybe three?) of these type posts. I specifically remember the last one where everyone gave you this same advice (most said to continue to help with the same excuses reasons, a few said to let him sink/swim). I think since you guys gave him a specific goal, a specific deadline, that if he doesn't meet it, there need to be specific actions. I'd give him two options - the marching down to the CC to register for finishing his Associates this fall (with you hand-holding the whole time) or rent/chores/whatever this fall with the plan being he moves out on his own by Jan 1st (unless he's registered for classes for the Winter/Spring semester on his own/no hand holding). Then, I'd stick to it. Note: This isn't my kid & my oldest is still high school aged, so I have no BTDT. But, I have three brothers & all three of them have done better once they have been forced to face reality without my enabler/mother helping them at every turn. That doesn't mean they were immensely successful in life - but I think they would have been better off than they are now had she stopped helping them earlier vs. later. (Can't blame my mom for my eldest brother's death unless you count genetics-related fault, which I don't. Sigh.) 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foxbridgeacademy Posted July 29, 2017 Share Posted July 29, 2017 19 is still really young and he's been working at this College thing for 3 years? In your situation I'd worry that my kid was "burnt out" and needed a break. So for the next semester-year I'd back off. I wouldn't pay for anything (other than housing and food I made at home), he'd have to have some kind of job. But I'd just let him "be" for awhile. I'd give him an end date when he had to either go back to school or start looking to get out on his own. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoodGrief Posted July 29, 2017 Share Posted July 29, 2017 I haven't read all of the replies. My thought is that he is still quite young, and he is a creative sort of person, which, in my experience, is typically not known for organization. You usually don't want an actor handling the business end of the theatre, lol (speaking as someone who served on the board of directors of our local community theatre ;-) ) I would have probably done the follow through to make sure all the documents for the transfer went through, knowing that that sort of thing is his weakness at this time in his life. At this point, I'd probably help him figure out if there could still be a possibility of a transfer, or if the deadline is a hard and fast rule. If the transfer can't happen, then, yeah, he's got to contribute. I'd want him to have a full time job, because that could be a motivator to come up with a plan, along with giving some valuable real-world experience. Even fast food would be okay with me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JumpyTheFrog Posted July 29, 2017 Share Posted July 29, 2017 If he goes the job route, don't let him suck you into the crazy taxi-ing like last time. 13 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 29, 2017 Share Posted July 29, 2017 Yes, consequences, without a buffer.mThat's what did it for me. And I didn't fully grow up until I got married. Had a baby. Let the full on non-selfish adulting and self motivation commence! I probably could have stood to have a little more coddling, my family really washed their hands of me a lot sooner than they should have, but this sounds like the opposite problem to be honest. You keep helping and helping, but he needs to do these things on his own and he may not until he IS fully self responsible and maybe even fails a bit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneStepAtATime Posted July 29, 2017 Share Posted July 29, 2017 (edited) Am I missing something? This kid sounds amazing. It seems some posters are acting like he is lazy and blowing off his responsibilities. I'm not seeing that at all. He was working part time, doing lots of extra things that gave him training in his field, maintaining a 4.0, helping his girlfriend, etc. etc. etc. And apparently nearly everything he tries he is good at and works hard at and people end up really wanting him and pressuring him to follow in more depth in their particular thing. He is only 19. As far as I can tell from the OPs posts, his only crime is not keeping up with a few deadlines for filing papers and for not staying exactly on top of what classes he still needs to take for an Associates. He is extremely busy, has lots of things he is good at, is not quite ready to settle on just one thing because he has a ton of interests, and it sounds like he is a really nice person, plus very willing to work hard in the classes he is actually taking. Why are some people acting like he has committed some heinous crime? He hasn't ditched classes. He made a 4.0. He sounds like he needs a bit of additional structure in keeping up with mundane deadlines and yes he may be a bit burned out considering he started DE at 14, went away to college at 16 and seems to have been going full tilt for quite a while. Maybe he needs to buckle down a bit to figure out what he needs to do to finish his degree but seriously he doesn't sound like he has done anything profoundly wrong. I'm rereading everything and trying to clarify in my own head what he has done that some people seem so up in arms over and why you, OP, are so worried. I hope you don't mind if I quote you. I'm just trying to understand. But I DO understand why you wanted to brainstorm how much scaffolding to provide. I do understand your original question. I just don't get why some are acting like he is a lazy slacker. I just don't see that at all. I never know how much background to include; I don't want to bore people who might remember my previous posts, but I also don't want to waste the time of folks who might want to be helpful but not know enough about the situation . . . So, as quickly as possible: I have this son. In a lot of ways, he's awesome. He's brilliant and creative and not nearly as much trouble as an awful lot of other guys his age. One consistent issue we have, though, is lack of follow-through in dealing with various kinds of administrative stuff. A couple of examples: He started full-time college at 16, living on campus 90 minutes from home. His first semester wasn't great, but he got his act together academically and did fine-to-very well after that. However, he twice ended up missing deadlines to sign up for a dorm room, and once he ignored issues with his registration that resulted in him being temporarily un-enrolled (while still going to class and doing all assignments). O.k. so at 16 he went off to college, ran into a few issues with staying on task apparently, as many young college kids do their first year (and he is younger than most) but ended up doing very well overall for the two years he was there. His only issue was what, maybe 3 paperwork deadlines? I think that's awesome. LOTS of kids struggle with deadlines at that age, especially stuff that isn't immediately on their radar. Didn't he have an academic adviser to help him out? After two years at the private university, he decided to switch gears, major-wise, and we agreed he'd move back home and do a year at the community college while he got his ducks in a row to apply for transfer to the state university (also local). The understanding/goal was that he would check off the boxes remaining to get an associate's degree, which would make it easier to transfer (and, since I have always harbored a bit of doubt about whether he'd actually stick to the whole school thing long enough to get a bachelor's, I selfishly knew I'd sleep better if he had a least one official piece of paper to show for his time). He's done great at the CC, honor roll both semesters (4.0 for one of them) while carrying more than a full-time load and working part-time and doing a variety of theatre-related activities. Once again, he has worked very hard, carried a major load, taken lots of classes, made the honor roll both semesters and maintained a 4.0 while working part time and doing other activities AND dating. Again, sounds like a pretty darn amazing kid. What he hasn't done is -- you guessed it -- actually finish the associate's OR jump through the hoops to line up the transfer. And was he just running completely solo on this? No academic adviser? Or you or your husband helping him lay out exactly what he needed to get that Associates? What classes was he taking that he has tons of credit hours but hasn't gotten his Associates? I guarantee you at 18/19 I was still needing help with seeing the big picture and getting signed up for the classes I needed to achieve the long term goals I was shooting for because I was so busy juggling all the balls I already had going. My academic adviser helped me keep track of deadlines and which classes to take. So did my parents. And I was grateful for their help. Did he not have any help coming up with a plan for the classes he needed? Or was he refusing to take thos classes? I told my husband that I often feel like, when it comes to academics, our son is like a wind-up toy: Once I get him prepped and pointed in the right direction and set him down at the starting line, he'll keep chugging along for as long as necessary. What he can't seem to manage is doing any of the prep work or strategizing on his own. Back at the beginning of the summer, we decided to roll with this and have me continue in the role of administrative assistant for a while longer, while trying to encourage/teach him to take on more of this, himself. Then maybe he needs some targeted work/training in this area, along with not just help brainstorming a plan but implementing that plan. This does not come intuitively to everyone. To that end, back in early June, he and I sat down and had a chat about his plans. I said repeatedly that, if he had changed his mind about the transfer, that was fine; he just needed some kind of plan for how to proceed from here. If he wanted to look at different colleges, cool. If he wanted to take a year off and work full time, cool. (He has talked several times about auditioning for one of the cruise ships or a touring production, for example.) If he wanted to try for an internship or apprenticeship at a local theatre, cool. If he had some other idea and/or wanted help brainstorming, cool. He was adamant that he wanted to follow through with transferring to the state university and was downright dismissive of my attempts to open a conversation about alternatives. Sounds like he is clear on his goals, he may just still need some support, scaffolding dealing with the nitty gritty of accomplishing those goals. [i had typed out a bunch of details here about what happened next, but I doubt that would be interesting to anyone. So, suffice it to say . . .] He submitted the transfer application, and we ordered transcripts. However, he dropped the ball on making sure all of the documents were received and has now missed the transfer application deadline. So he filled out all the paperwork expected of him but he either didn't know to or forgot to confirm that the documents he filled out and submitted were actually received? Once again, it sounds like he is trying and actually did what was asked of him. He just didn't confirm things were received. Did anyone tell him to do so? I don't know that I would have double checked that things were received at that age, especially given his busy schedule. I would probably have assumed the paperwork I submitted had been received. Or are you saying he didn't actually submit it? Three weeks ago, my husband and son and I sat down again and had a meeting about the situation. We told him -- again -- that we are open to all kinds of possibilities, but that the one thing he may not do is not be in school and continue to be treated like a kid. We explained that, if he's not enrolled in some kind of formal educational program leading to some kind of credential, then he needs to start functioning like a contributing adult in the household (or move out). We all agreed to a deadline of the end of this month for him to work out a plan and show us evidence that he is enrolled in something, somewhere for this fall OR we would figure out how his role in he household would be changing. That deadline is Monday. To the naked eye, it does not appear that he has done anything at all to put any kind of plan in place. He's actually away for the weekend, but I did mention to him before he left that Monday marks the end of the month, just so he wouldn't be surprised when he returns. So are you saying that because of the apparently missing paperwork he cannot transfer this fall? And you are expecting him to contribute to the household in some way if he is not taking any classes at the CC this fall? That makes sense and I understand this decision. I would be careful not to make it sound like a punishment for being a lazy kid, though. I should hasten to explain that, it's not like he's a slacker. He has genuinely been very busy. He drives his girlfriend to her summer classes and has been recruited to help out with various things: performing in and making last-minute costumes and working backstage at the recital of his former dance school, partnering students enrolled in his girlfriend's dance class and performing in their semester-ending performance, designing and sewing two skirts for his sister, making a couple of costumes for another friend's community theatre show, designing and making costumes for himself and his girlfriend for two different conventions, auditioning for professional performance gigs of his own and still working at the theme park on an on-call basis. He sounds like he has been very busy and working very hard and honing skills in a field he wants to dig into and he sounds very helpful and kind. He actually does have some casting news that is potentially very cool, but I'm not allowed to share details about that until an official announcement is made. What I can say is that it is not something that would prevent him from continuing to go to school and does not seem to be anything like a full-time job, in terms of income. So, if you're still with me, here I am finally getting to the actual question: If this were your young adult, what would you consider appropriate steps to transition him from functioning as a kid/student to becoming a contributing adult member of the household, assuming that he does not come to us with the agreed-upon plan/evidence on Monday? My husband and I consulted about this briefly and have already decided that the small allowance we give our son that was initially intended to provide spending money and cover incidentals while he was on campus will be discontinued more or less immediately. Several months ago, we sold him my old car at a greatly reduced rate, but held onto the registration and title in order to make it easier to handle insurance. Because he hasn't gotten around to setting up the e-Pass I bought for him, we have gotten several toll-by-plate bills, all of which are in my husband's name. I have paid them promptly, and my son has (not quite so promptly) paid me back. However, when the registration is up for renewal in September, we plan to go ahead and put that in our son's name so that he will be fully responsible. At that point, we will also likely require him to get his own insurance, rather than just having him pay half of the increase in our rates that resulted from putting him on our policy. When we talked to him a few weeks ago, I pointed out that "contributing" does not necessarily refer only to financial stuff. For all of the years I was a SAHM, there were long stretches during which I brought no money into the house. My contribution during those years was raising and educating him and his sister and doing the majority of the household upkeep and generally managing everyone's lives and schedules. Since he is not currently working many hours, it's probably not meaningful to talk about monetary rent. But we do want him to "feel" this transition. So, I'd appreciate hearing what you require of any young adult offspring who live with you and are not in school. A final consideration: My ultimate goal, here, is to nudge him towards getting back in school. I absolutely do not want to make this so unpleasant/difficult/contentious that he opts to give up/move out/take whatever crappy full-time job he can get just so he can scrape up enough to pay his bills. I want to design a situation that, as much as possible, makes him see that he had a good thing going and motivate him to step up and take responsibility for getting back on track. He's 19. The job he has is related to his area of interest. The issue is that his position is seasonal, meaning hours are extremely irregular. He has applied for a few other, similar jobs, including for an opening in his current department that would be the same job but with regular part-time hours. He has also, as I mentioned, auditioned this summer for several professional performance jobs. The super-secret thing he has been cast in is, in theory, paid, but he hasn't yet been given any details about what that means. So he has applied for different jobs and is working part time and has definitely not been slacking off, definitely not just sitting around doing nothing. Well, it's not quite true that none of the things he's doing are professional development, though. Since his major and career plans all relate to theatre -- including costuming and backstage/tech -- pretty much everything he's done this summer (except for driving his girlfriend around) works to build his resume. By partnering the students in his girlfriend's dance class, he's basically been allowed to take class for free all summer, and, although it didn't add up to more than a tankful of gas, he did get paid a small amount for each of the costumes he made for the community theatre show. Even while he's away at the convention this weekend, he's carrying business cards to hand out to anyone who admires the costumes he made for himself and his girlfriend. Yep, works hard, trying to do a lot of things that will help his career choice, also helps his girlfriend. Definitely sounds like a great kid. I totally agree about the bills and such, although, again, I would really like to structure this transition so that he has the opportunity to make a quick turn-around and get back in school. That's the sweet spot I'm trying to hit, to make life uncomfortable enough that he feels it, but not so difficult that he opts to just cut his losses. So are you saying that when it became apparent that at least some of the paperwork he submitted didn't actually get where it needed to be, that he then told you he isn't going to take any classes this fall? Or he can't take any classes this fall? I'm confused by this statement. Why are you wanting to make life uncomfortable for him? Is he slacking off, lying around the house watching TV and being a pain in the rear lazy butt? 'Cause I'm not seeing that. He is three classes short of fulfilling the requirements for the associate's. I mean, he has a ton of credit hours, way more than is necessary for the AA, but there are three boxes he needs to check off. I am more than happy to do some nudging and hand-holding to help with paperwork. That's how he got enrolled at the CC for this past year. The ongoing dilemma is whether/how/how much to push. This seems simple. Why wouldn't he just take the three classes? Are you saying he is flat out refusing to take those three classes? Or that he isn't sure what he wants to do? Yep. He had a year of dual enrollment, then went away for two years and has spent the last year at the local CC. So he has been taking college classes since he was 14. Could he be burned out ? And that's where I've come down repeatedly, especially since he is still young and he works super hard at lots of things. I'm just getting tired and frustrated and kind of burned out, though. And I'm perfectly happy to help him, but I'm questioning if it's helping him to not require him to hold up even the smallest end of the deal. This statement makes it seem like he has never done anything that you have asked him to do. And yet from these other posts it sounds like he has done the vast majority of things expected of him. He just missed a few things along the way. He isn't perfect. No one is. But maybe I am missing something? I've floated that possibility more than once. I've told him that I would be perfectly happy for him not to work and to just focus on school. If he buckled down and was thoughtful about which classes he took, he could likely walk away with a B.A. by next summer. I think that would be a great idea. He is not interested in that option. It sounds like he is not interested in that option because right now he keeps getting some terrific opportunities to get some great hands on learning in his field of interest/areas of passion. I don't blame him for not wanting to dump those things to go do ONLY classroom academics for what probably seems a very long time to a teenager when right now he can do both. He can take classes (and apparently is an excellent student) AND hone valuable skills in his field of interest. I think that's awesome. Hands on experience is invaluable in this field. Here's the thing: He's extremely bright and very competent and is likely to do pretty well even in a crappy job. My concern all along has been that, once he starts working and begins to think he can at least scrape by, he will lose whatever motivation remains to finish a degree. And that would be fine, for now. However, I have every reason to believe, based on multiple exemplars on both sides of our family, that he will regret that decision later. And I know all too well how difficult it is to get back in school "later." I've asked him that very question. He repeatedly says that, although school is not his favorite thing, he does want to finish a degree. Ultimately, he'd like to direct his own performing arts school/company. Although he hopes to get some years of professional experience both onstage and backstage before starting that venture, he also recognizes that having a degree may be helpful when/if he does try to get a business underway. Honestly, I think part of the problem is that he's interested in and talented at so many different things that it's hard for him to settle down into ANY one of them. When he was 10, he was training at the pre-professional ballet school. For as long as any of us can remember, he had wanted to dance. As soon as he was old enough, he started taking lessons. He was good-not-great, but, as a boy had lots of opportunities to perform. He loved lots of things about being there, but he also chafed at the limits it created on other things he also loved and wanted to do. For a few years, he was able to balance the pre-pro training with a serious boychoir and some theatre on the side. Then he got an opportunity to do a paid, out-of-town theatre gig, and things got very unpleasant at the dance school, because they insisted that dance had to be his priority. Meanwhile, his choir director and voice teacher were telling me he needed to give music more attention, because he has a wonderful voice, and he was getting featured/lead roles in youth and community theatre productions. And meanwhile, he was at least two grades ahead of his age peers academically. Eventually, he decided to leave the pre-pro school and find somewhere else to dance, because he wasn't ready to focus on just that one thing. After bouncing around a bit, looking for a dance school that would offer him quality training but also enough flexibility to keep singing and doing theatre, he found a small, family-run studio. He started with one class per week. At the end of that year, they awarded him a scholarship for additional classes. By the end of that year, he was on the competition team and assistant teaching. In his third year at the studio, he was spending 18+ hours there per week and won a state-wide dance title. I don't think that what is happening now is all that different. He opted not to take classes this summer, so that he could work and focus on some other things. But, because he had been one of the star students in the dance class he took last semester, he was invited to "drop in" whenever he happened to be on campus with his girlfriend. He went to a few classes with her, figuring, hey, free dance class, and was asked if he would do some partner work. This led to him having a featured role in the semester-ending performance, even though he wasn't even enrolled in the class. He ended up making a few costumes for the dance studio's recital this summer, because he had been invited to do a solo and, while he was hanging around rehearsals, the studio owner mentioned she needed some things. Her daughter told her my son was good at costumes and sewing, and by the end of the day, he'd agreed to take on the project. His "problem" has always been that, even when he's just dabbling in something, he is very quickly in demand and gets opportunities to do more and more. He, like me, is a person who really likes being busy and productive. And, because he enjoys it all, he always has a ton of balls in the air. So, I think the answer to the question of what he wants to do is that he wants to, as the young-uns would say, "Do ALL the things." So he works hard at whatever he tries, he does well, and lots of people end up wanting him to continue with whatever. He wants to continue pursuing these things and has also indicated he wants to get his degree. Is that right? I actually really don't think that's the case. He is perfectly capable of focusing and managing when he deems it important to do so. For example, he has exactly zero issues with inattentiveness or missing deadlines or anything similar when he's at work. Ever since he was little, he's been capable of spending hours at theatre and dance rehearsals and behaving (much better than his peers) backstage. He plans, designs and executes zillions of projects of his choice, with admirable attention to detail. The difference is that he likes doing those things. He just isn't interested in managing paperwork for school. It sounds like he has a LOT going on and he HAS done quite a bit with taking care of paperwork. He just hasn't been 100% perfect. Not everyone can handle clerical work well and most people aren't picture perfect at every single thing they have to do in life. FWIW, my dad was abysmal at it. He was incredibly smart and talented in his fields of expertise. He needed an assistant to help him keep track of the clerical stuff. And my mom to handle the nitty gritty of day to day paperwork required for living. He wasn't lazy by any means. It just took a LOT of his brain power to keep track of the clerical paperwork stuff because that was NOT his area of brain strength and because he was so busy juggling a ton of balls, sometimes those boring paperwork things got shoved way to the back of his head. Sounds like maybe your son has similar things going on. Honestly, talk with him on Monday and hopefully he will have a plan but I would not be treating this like he has really messed up in some way. I think he is a pretty amazing kid who has worked incredibly hard and just may need a bit more scaffolding on taking care of the clerical side of things. Edited July 29, 2017 by OneStepAtATime 18 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lang Syne Boardie Posted July 29, 2017 Share Posted July 29, 2017 One step, I apologize for not reading the whole MEGO post, but I just have to chime in as the mother of another amazing, genius, wildly successful, super capable young man who astonishes the world with his high capacity for plate spinning - yet is unable to pack his own lunch most days. Yes, he is wonderful and fascinating. But when you've been the auxiliary brain/mother for twenty years, and your smart but slightly less brilliant younger children are light years ahead of him in EF skills and self magagement of quirks...you get tired sometimes. It's a journey, and you're wondering if we're there yet. (The answer is usually no.) 9 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fraidycat Posted July 29, 2017 Share Posted July 29, 2017 (edited) That is what I was thinking. Just because he was gifted academically and obviously creatively as well doesn't mean these executive functioning skills are good. Plus, to be honest, most of the "creative" types I work with are notoriously unorganized. Most of the music ministers I have worked with desperately needed their secretary to handle all of the details and day to day functioning stuff. That said, I'm not sure that a semester having a crappy job wouldn't make him more motivated about his future. Not much help, huh??This. I was going to say it sounds like your son really needs an personal asistant/secretary. Some people never "get it" and creative types are notorious for this for a reason. Your DS has many strengths - executive function/organization is not one of them. Probably never will be. It's not wilfull rebellion, it's brain wiring. He's probably got 300,000 costumes, chorography routines, soliloquies floating in there - there's simply not room for more. So, my remedy would be, he can either pay you for your time, or work to make enough to hire a VA to keep his life on track, bills paid, etc. I'd start at $25+ dollars per hour because those strengths are a valuable commodity and deserve to be paid well - saving $$$$$$ in the long run, due to missed deadlines, overdue fines, etc. It'll probably be a life-long (worthwhile) expense for him, unless he finds an incredibly understanding and organized wife/life partner to pick up his slack. Edited July 29, 2017 by fraidycat 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneStepAtATime Posted July 29, 2017 Share Posted July 29, 2017 (edited) One step, I apologize for not reading the whole MEGO post, but I just have to chime in as the mother of another amazing, genius, wildly successful, super capable young man who astonishes the world with his high capacity for plate spinning - yet is unable to pack his own lunch most days. Yes, he is wonderful and fascinating. But when you've been the auxiliary brain/mother for twenty years, and your smart but slightly less brilliant younger children are light years ahead of him in EF skills and self magagement of quirks...you get tired sometimes. It's a journey, and you're wondering if we're there yet. (The answer is usually no.) Oh, I totally get that. I really do. It can be exhausting. I just think this kiddo has done some amazing things at a very young age and some of the posts from others acting like he is a slacker dropping the ball sound unfair to me. I agree with those saying maybe his Executive Function skills have some weak areas. I do get why OP is worried about his finishing his degree and wondering how much she should be stepping in. That is a hard tightrope to walk. It just seems to me this is not really a crisis in the grand scheme of things. I appreciate OP asking for some feedback on this. As parents we can be too close to the problem. Maybe he needs some help with the clerical work while he grows and matures. It very much sounds like it. Yes, that can be frustrating when it seems he can do so much. Why not this? But in reality we all have strengths and weaknesses. I think when kids are amazing in so many areas then people come to expect them to function perfectly or more maturely than they are actually ready for. I don't see the things that he didn't completely accomplish as being some horrible thing or abnormal for his age. We all have areas of weakness and we all make mistakes. I think he deserves a lot of kuddos for the zillions of things he did right and some scaffolding to help him accomplish his goals. He isn't 30, he's 19. He isn't sitting around watching TV all day. He works, he applies for other jobs, when he is in school he maintains a 4.0. He does a lot of side things that hone skills in the field he wants to pursue as a career and works hard at those things and does well. He just needs some scaffolding getting some of the clerical work done. Edited July 29, 2017 by OneStepAtATime 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peaceseeker Posted July 29, 2017 Share Posted July 29, 2017 (edited) Obviously he does not care as much as you do about completing the Associate's degree. Of course all of us here in our wisdom can see that he should when he is so close. Alternatively, it may also be that finishing up the Associate's degree will force him to make the next decision and he may be unsure if he wants to transfer or pursue some life experiences in his fields of interest. So putting off checking those last few boxes may make him feel like he has more time to decide since he is still on that path and not forging a new one. My guess is that he is stalling. He would probably like a break from school but knows it would disappoint you. I don't even know you and I can tell it would disappoint you, lol...so he definitely knows your preference. I would probably encourage him to finish the 3 classes to be at a stopping point and then take a break to try something new. He might enjoy a stint performing on a cruise ship or just doing life/getting a job for a year. I know that freaks parents out when their kids take a break from school but sometimes that is just what they need. I think that is what he is trying to tell you in his own way. Edited July 29, 2017 by CaliforniaDreaming 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gardenmom5 Posted July 29, 2017 Share Posted July 29, 2017 He's 19. The job he has is related to his area of interest. The issue is that his position is seasonal, meaning hours are extremely irregular. He has applied for a few other, similar jobs, including for an opening in his current department that would be the same job but with regular part-time hours. He has also, as I mentioned, auditioned this summer for several professional performance jobs. The super-secret thing he has been cast in is, in theory, paid, but he hasn't yet been given any details about what that means. as has been pointed out - he's young. brain wiring in boys - even very smart ones, is later than girls. I would also consider he may simply be burned out from everything he's been doing. he's had a lot on his plate. Here's the thing: He's extremely bright and very competent and is likely to do pretty well even in a crappy job. My concern all along has been that, once he starts working and begins to think he can at least scrape by, he will lose whatever motivation remains to finish a degree. And that would be fine, for now. However, I have every reason to believe, based on multiple exemplars on both sides of our family, that he will regret that decision later. And I know all too well how difficult it is to get back in school "later." my girls - were a piece of cake. if I only had them - I would have thought this was easy. but they weren't, and I learned the flip side. my gifted - and learning disabled/capd/ef ds was in an entry peon type job after changing majors and dropping out of college. I did the handholding, and helping with other skill development opportunities - follow through was irregular. he eventually got tired of it - but with no degree, no one wanted to hire him "for more" - even after they saw what he could do as a temp. he had people who loved working with him- but no degree, no job. he eventually wanted to be able to afford a grown-up life. that meant a degree in something in which he could earn a living. he jumped through a lot of hoops - but is now a jr and doing very well, and more importantly, self-motivated. he's even talked about a MS in his field. I used to be firmly in the Just Do It For Them camp and then I learned that sometimes, if you push too hard, they resent you for putting them in a situation they didn't even know they didn't want to be in. such a fine line . . . . . :tongue_smilie: Unfortunately, there's no way of really knowing how much you can do for them without it hurting them. I know he's a smart kid, and I know that sometimes we confuse intelligence with maturity. bingo. Plus, I can imagine it's difficult to not compare him to your dd easy for them to feel like you are even if you aren't, but they're not the same person (whom I hope is doing well!) and end up not even being sure what you SHOULD be expecting of him. And because I don't learn from my mistakes, I'd probably warn him that I am going to sit down with him and We are going to map some goals out. Fwiw, if I could afford to help him out with car/phone stuff, I would as long as I was able - provided he was either working or schooling. we did this. things can change quickly - and they need the car to get to school and/or a job and you can't be a taxi service. I've asked him that very question. He repeatedly says that, although school is not his favorite thing, he does want to finish a degree. I'm another vote for handholding him into the registrar's office and get him enrolled in those last three classes. I had one who had tremendous anxiety about enrolling in classes - but would go to them and do the homework just fine. He opted not to take classes this summer, so that he could work and focus on some other things. But, because he had been one of the star students in the dance class he took last semester, he was invited to "drop in" whenever he happened to be on campus with his girlfriend. He went to a few classes with her, figuring, hey, free dance class, and was asked if he would do some partner work. This led to him having a featured role in the semester-ending performance, even though he wasn't even enrolled in the class. this is a "fun" distraction - but it is a distraction from his goals. it does not get him closer to where he wants to go, he needs to learn to say "that would be fun, but I really don't have time." He ended up making a few costumes for the dance studio's recital this summer, because he had been invited to do a solo and, while he was hanging around rehearsals, the studio owner mentioned she needed some things. Her daughter told her my son was good at costumes and sewing, and by the end of the day, he'd agreed to take on the project. is he getting paid for this? it is his time for working. if he wants to look at this as an "unpaid internship" (which can be worthwhile depending upon experience) - can he put it on a resume? can he keep photos of the costumes for a portfolio? what is he getting from this - or is he "just being a nice guy" whose having summer fun in a theater group? His "problem" has always been that, even when he's just dabbling in something, he is very quickly in demand and gets opportunities to do more and more. he needs to learn to prioritize projects - time is limited. if you want to consider this time as part of his education, you need to be willing to support him in it. He, like me, is a person who really likes being busy and productive. And, because he enjoys it all, he always has a ton of balls in the air. I have a friend in this business. (dh grew up with her, and my dsil is her cousin's son.) when her dh was getting their business up and running - she was bored so in addition to what she did with their business - she opened a ballet studio,. (she eventually sold it.) point is; she had to prioritize where she spent her time. help your son learn to pick and choose where to spend his time - because time IS *limited*. again: hand hold him down to the registrar's office so he can enroll in those last three classes. unless they only offer one section of each in the same time slot (2ds had that a few times :glare: :cursing: :glare: ) he should be able to finish fall quarter/semester. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PinkyandtheBrains. Posted July 29, 2017 Share Posted July 29, 2017 (edited) I'm in the help him camp. 19 is young. I have no doubt my kids are going to need a helping hand staying on top of necessary things still at 19. The ability to focus on things if interest, and inability to follow through necessary tasks, sounds a lot like my ADHD crew. I know they need extra help with certain tasks. You don't have to do it for him, just keep guiding him in a forward direction, helping him remember to check off the necessary boxes as he goes. Edited July 29, 2017 by PinkyandtheBrains. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 29, 2017 Share Posted July 29, 2017 (edited) At 19,he needs to start understanding credentialism. Who is his professional mentor? Perhaos that person can reach him. Even if that doesn't happen, insist on finishing the Assoc. Next semester. After that he can break and gain experience elsewhere. Walk him thru it, all the while reiterating he needs the paper to signify a.certain skill set to those that don't know him well. Focus on professional advancement. I would not consider him to have three years of college at this point. Two of those are high school in the gain soft skills dept. He sounds like a rising sophomore,not quite sure of direction and how to advance, happy that he has some skills and can get some gigs. On the personal, we discourage chaeuffering the gf. His time is valuable and should be used for professsional advancement or paid employment. She needs to gain experience as a driver too, especially if she will be driving dc around in the future. The toll pass...we tried it, but way too difficult to manage when paychecks don't arrive regularly. Also very annoying because the.website is cumbersome and not updated daily. Its like a credit card, best with a steady job with dependable paycheck. The cash basis works fine, especially when it means friends can't duck paying their portion of the toll. Use the envelope system so he can make his budget work for him. No cash in envelope, no using toll roads. Edited July 29, 2017 by Heigh Ho Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Library Momma Posted July 29, 2017 Share Posted July 29, 2017 The world of theatre is not for the unorganized. It is constantly trying to work while you are looking for that next job. It is keeping your day job schedule organized while you pursue your theatre pursuits. It is subletting your apartment while you are out on the road with a production. You have to be sure that this is the type of schedule and level of organization he can maintain on his own or he won't be successful. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gardenmom5 Posted July 29, 2017 Share Posted July 29, 2017 At 19,he needs to start understanding credentialism. Who is his professional mentor? Perhaos that person can reach him. Even if that doesn't happen, insist on finishing the Assoc. Next semester. After that he can break and gain experience elsewhere. Walk him thru it, all the while reiterating he needs the paper to signify a.certain skill set to those that don't know him well. Focus on professional advancement. I would not consider him to have three years of college at this point. Two of those are high school in the gain soft skills dept. He sounds like a rising sophomore,not quite sure of direction and how to advance, happy that he has some skills and can get some gigs. On the personal, we discourage chaeuffering the gf. His time is valuable and should be used for professsional advancement or paid employment. the college will consider those years college, and they are on their transcript. one reason why registrars will tell you - only do college in the high school if you are ready to be an applied student! meaning getting good grades because it will affect their overall college gpa if they ever want to use those classes (and it's all or nothing from each institution) on their transcript. and yeah - time. not only should he stop driving his gf places she needs to go, he needs to really limit the time he spends "volunteering" at these places unless he is gaining something he can put on a resume that will help him professionally. my girls did volunteer work in college - but that was separate from paid employment and classes which were going to their degree. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmilyGF Posted July 29, 2017 Share Posted July 29, 2017 I think your son sounds (maybe?) somewhat like me. Looking back at my life, I have a hard time sticking with anything for more than two years. I think I got through college because my dad told me, "No one cares what you study, just that you're able to finish." I must have changed majors five times. Thankfully the core was structured enough that I could still graduate on time. (ChemEng -> Physics -> Geophysics -> EE? -> Applied Physics) Does he worry that if he gets a certain major it will limit him in the future? Then stress the credential is useful and doesn't stop him from doing SOMETHING ELSE in the future. My mom had friends who just had to let their kids go try their hand at living on what they could make without a credential in order to motivate them to go back to college. My uncle, OTOH, just doesn't do well in institutional schooling. He never finished college and has done well as a programmer. He doesn't do well in offices, either, and is an independent contractor who alternates working from home and in offices. But he's been successful. Emily Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pink and Green Mom Posted July 29, 2017 Share Posted July 29, 2017 Everyone with ADHD can hyperfocus on things they are interested in, they just cannot do it for things that don't interest them. This is hallmark executive function issues for really bright kids. Seriously, look into innattentive type ADHD. It is something he can be trained out of with cognitive therapy, but it isn't his fault. It isn't a matter of willpower. I agree with this 100 percent, because it describes me to a T. My parents insisted there was no way I could have ADHD because I sailed through high school and college and performed well in law school and passed two bar exams. I was tested as an adult and the doctor doing the testing could not believe how off the charts bad my inattentiveness and executive functions were. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jenny in Florida Posted July 29, 2017 Author Share Posted July 29, 2017 On the personal, we discourage chaeuffering the gf. His time is valuable and should be used for professsional advancement or paid employment. She needs to gain experience as a driver too, especially if she will be driving dc around in the future. The toll pass...we tried it, but way too difficult to manage when paychecks don't arrive regularly. Also very annoying because the.website is cumbersome and not updated daily. Its like a credit card, best with a steady job with dependable paycheck. The cash basis works fine, especially when it means friends can't duck paying their portion of the toll. Use the envelope system so he can make his budget work for him. No cash in envelope, no using toll roads. His girlfriend does not drive and probably never will. She has fairly serious anxiety issues and is terrified of the entire concept. For the same reason, she cannot/does not use public transportation. If my son does not drive her, then her parents have to do it. And they are, from my point of view, weirdly unsupportive of her. I mean, I know I am a bit crazy on the subject of being willing to drive mine around, but I can't imagine having a young adult in my home, who I know has these challenges and who is trying to go to college, and making it hard for her to get to class. His girlfriend does cover gas and chip in for other expenses when they drive places together. When it comes to tolls, part of the deal is that there are some off-ramps on our highways that no longer accept cash at all. Plus, there is a decent discount for using the e-pass. And there are some locations he travels to frequently that are very difficult to get to at all without using the toll roads. So, clunky as it is, the e-pass is the best solution. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MedicMom Posted July 29, 2017 Share Posted July 29, 2017 His girlfriend does not drive and probably never will. She has fairly serious anxiety issues and is terrified of the entire concept. For the same reason, she cannot/does not use public transportation. If my son does not drive her, then her parents have to do it. And they are, from my point of view, weirdly unsupportive of her. I mean, I know I am a bit crazy on the subject of being willing to drive mine around, but I can't imagine having a young adult in my home, who I know has these challenges and who is trying to go to college, and making it hard for her to get to class. His girlfriend does cover gas and chip in for other expenses when they drive places together. When it comes to tolls, part of the deal is that there are some off-ramps on our highways that no longer accept cash at all. Plus, there is a decent discount for using the e-pass. And there are some locations he travels to frequently that are very difficult to get to at all without using the toll roads. So, clunky as it is, the e-pass is the best solution. Somewhat off topic, but at that age I had fairly severe driving anxiety as well. My parents were done driving me around and it was basically either suck it up and get my driver's license or move somewhere with public transportation. So I do understand where her parents are coming from, and I'd also discourage my son from spending his time driving her around. I don't know that I would have ever gotten my license if my parents had continued to drive me around. I still live in the same small town with no public transportation, and it's impossible to be a non driver here. We just got uber in upstate New York, though, and I've happily been blowing half my paycheck on it. 8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jenny in Florida Posted July 29, 2017 Author Share Posted July 29, 2017 the college will consider those years college, and they are on their transcript. one reason why registrars will tell you - only do college in the high school if you are ready to be an applied student! meaning getting good grades because it will affect their overall college gpa if they ever want to use those classes (and it's all or nothing from each institution) on their transcript. and yeah - time. not only should he stop driving his gf places she needs to go, he needs to really limit the time he spends "volunteering" at these places unless he is gaining something he can put on a resume that will help him professionally. my girls did volunteer work in college - but that was separate from paid employment and classes which were going to their degree. When it comes to years of college, you are exactly right. It doesn't matter what age the student was when the classes were taken; it all counts towards the degree. (By the other poster's logic, my daughter's bachelor's shouldn't "count" at all, since she finished it before she was 17.) The driving and "volunteering" thing is a bit less clear cut. He and his girlfriend have been together almost two years and are very much a partnership. She helps keep him on track with regard to schoolwork, for example, and they split all expenses 50/50 for various outings and activities. He provides a fair amount of emotional support for her, as well as doing the driving. When her parents were being less than helpful about driving her to summer classes, my son promised her he would work it out for her. He takes that stuff seriously, which I respect. And, in the world of theatre, a lot of opportunities arise out of being "there" and being a known quantity. I mean, sure sometimes a complete stranger shows up at some audition and blows everyone away and gets cast in the lead, but much more often, directors want to work with people they already know and feel they can count on. Sometimes, you don't even know a production is auditioning unless you hear about it through word of mouth, and some of the most interesting auditions are by invitation only. In fact, the super-secret thing he was recently cast in did not hold open auditions. Instead, the director put out the word that he was open to receiving resumes. He knew my son from other things and e-mailed asking him to submit. After reviewing the resume, he asked for a video. Only at that point was an official invitation issued to come to the in-person auditions. For the technical/backstage stuff, often the director or stage manager will simply go through his or her mental list and reach out to someone to offer the gig. For example, the two small costume commissions he got this summer happened because someone he occasionally plays RPGs with has seen pictures on his Facebook page of some of the stuff he's done for his girlfriend and himself for conventions. Another time, he got paid (a small amount, but still) to make a puppet and teach an after-school group to use it for their show. That one happened because, after he had been cast in the ensemble of a community theatre production, he volunteered to help out with props and costumes and did such a great job that the stage manager for that show, who leads the after-school program, thought of him when she needed help on her students' project. So, while not all of these experiences equate to "jobs" that can go on a resume, they do help him build his network. And they provide photos for his portfolio. Which is why, frustrating as it is sometimes for me to see him "not working," I try to bite my tongue at least some of the time and give him the space to invest in making a name for himself in the community. Part of my challenge is to balance being supportive and understanding of that necessity with encouraging him to maintain some kind of recognizable forward momentum academically and financially. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catz Posted July 29, 2017 Share Posted July 29, 2017 His girlfriend does not drive and probably never will. She has fairly serious anxiety issues and is terrified of the entire concept. For the same reason, she cannot/does not use public transportation. If my son does not drive her, then her parents have to do it. And they are, from my point of view, weirdly unsupportive of her. I mean, I know I am a bit crazy on the subject of being willing to drive mine around, but I can't imagine having a young adult in my home, who I know has these challenges and who is trying to go to college, and making it hard for her to get to class. Wow - that's pretty untenable for a young adult. I wouldn't make any assumptions about the young woman's parents. They might have tried to get her to work actively on her anxiety and maybe she is refusing to do so? Maybe they are trying some tough love on their end. And I get anxiety - I've had treatment for it. Treatment can be very effective. It sounds like your son and her have a nice balance at the moment. I'd find watching this level of codependency long term as a parent actively financially supporting one of the young adults pretty frustrating. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jenny in Florida Posted July 29, 2017 Author Share Posted July 29, 2017 (edited) not only should he stop driving his gf places she needs to go . . . So I do understand where her parents are coming from, and I'd also discourage my son from spending his time driving her around. I don't know that I would have ever gotten my license if my parents had continued to drive me around. I still live in the same small town with no public transportation, and it's impossible to be a non driver here. Two more thoughts on this issue: I think I'm coming at this from the other side of your experience, MedicMom. My daughter also struggles with anxiety and was not able to manage it well enough to get a driver's license. When she still lived at home, we tried for months to get her comfortable and competent behind the wheel. She learned the mechanics of driving just fine, but was so nervous that she would panic and lose control of the car. She was very motivated to try and learn, because she was applying for an internship she really wanted that required her to have a vehicle and license, but she never could do it. She now lives and works in NYC and uses public transportation to get around. She is far from the only person she knows in the city who never learned to drive and/or doesn't have a license. So, while I do chalk that up as one parenting fail on my account, it has turned out to be a non-issue for her. And if, at some point down the road, she decides she really needs to drive, I have confidence she will tackle it appropriately. I really do not think it is my place to tell my son how to handle his interpersonal/romantic relationship(s). If he feels it is important and worthwhile for him to support his partner by driving her to and from classes, then I respect that decision. (For what it's worth, there were a few years after we moved to Florida when my husband did not drive due to a health issue. I drove him to and from work every day during that time, because we are a team.) Nor do I think it is appropriate for me to tell a young adult to whom I have no parental connection that she "needs" to do one thing or another with her life. His girlfriend and I are on good terms, and she does seek my advice on various things, which I am happy to share (and delighted that she wants). We have spoken multiple times about the anxiety/driving thing, and I respect that she knows herself and her abilities better than I do. Edited July 29, 2017 by Jenny in Florida 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jenny in Florida Posted July 29, 2017 Author Share Posted July 29, 2017 Wow - that's pretty untenable for a young adult. I wouldn't make any assumptions about the young woman's parents. They might have tried to get her to work actively on her anxiety and maybe she is refusing to do so? Maybe they are trying some tough love on their end. And I get anxiety - I've had treatment for it. Treatment can be very effective. Both my daughter and my husband are being treated for anxiety disorders. I'm familiar with the issues and the effectiveness of treatment. I also know more about the girlfriend's relationship with her parents than I feel comfortable sharing here. Trust me when I say that, although I do always try to give other members of the parents' club the benefit of the doubt, the situation there is not great. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crimson Wife Posted July 29, 2017 Share Posted July 29, 2017 I don't see the driving the GF as a big issue. I do see the "finish his Associate's" as one. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jenny in Florida Posted July 29, 2017 Author Share Posted July 29, 2017 (edited) I don't see the driving the GF as a big issue. I do see the "finish his Associate's" as one. Thank you. Although I appreciate the concern and the general feedback I've been receiving here -- it's always helpful to get other perspectives, in part because formulating responses to them helps me to clarify my own thoughts -- I would politely and respectfully point out that what I actually requested was for folks to share their experiences with integrating a non-student young adult as a contributing member of the household. I'm still hopeful that, come Monday, my son will show up with either a plan or the intention of working with me in an immediate and focused way to get him enrolled somewhere within that week. When we last discussed this in any depth a few weeks ago, we did talk about him spending one more semester at the CC, taking the three classes necessary to check off those boxes for the AA and filling in with a class or two that are likely to transfer cleanly to the state university. So, if he shows up on Monday saying that's what he wants to do and is prepared to set a date and time before Friday to have me go with him to the CC and get that done, I'm willing to stretch our "deadline" that far. I suspect that is what will end up happening. However, just in case that isn't how things shake out and we do end up needing to follow through with the "treat him like an adult" option, I would still appreciate hearing from others about how similar situations work in your families. Edited July 29, 2017 by Jenny in Florida 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bettyandbob Posted July 29, 2017 Share Posted July 29, 2017 (edited) tangent: I know the refusal to drive thing well. My oldest ds ( described above) does not drive. I'm pretty the issue is anxiety, but he gives other reasons. I refuse to rescue him on this matter, but dh does drive him often. While living at home ds has limited his employment to a place within 2 miles of our home so he usually walks. He has used public transit as well. Back when he was attending cc, the campus he attended was near my old job so he got a ride when I went to work, and made a schedule around that. Since I won't drive him, he has limited his employment--not the best option. This summer he has still managed to work a lot so I guess that's ok. I really get the parents not driving the girlfriend. My feeling with my ds has been he has to learn how to live this way without help. I expect him to be an independent adult. He can't be an independent adult if I drive him. He's now moving to a place that I'm certain has much less public transit than our suburban home. He's going to be living in grad student housing and working nearby to supplement his stipend. But he's supposed to present at an academic conference this fall. He's been in contact with his advisors about missing classes. He's now trying to figure out how to get to the conference which would be an 8 hour drive. Both schools are no where near major airline hubs, so he has to come up with money and time to do a lot hops to different airports and hopefully find rides from small regional airports at either end. He's actually figuring that out on his own. I think by the end of this grad program he will decide he needs to drive or he'll be a lifelong nondriver who has figured out how to manage on his own anywhere. As a parent, I'd probably see the OPs ds as rescuing. I might be relieved that she had a way to get to class and annoyed that the boyfriend was enabling her not learning to live an independent life. ETA: that's my take on the parent's perspective. It's a mixed feeling thing. The OP doesn't relate to the approach and I know how she handled her dd so she has a completely different perspective than I. I'm not sure that fact of her ds doing the driving is a big issue for getting her ds on track to do something. Edited July 29, 2017 by Diana P. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gingersmom Posted July 29, 2017 Share Posted July 29, 2017 (edited) Totally off topic- You all are making me feel better/horrified at the same time about my soon to be 21 year old daughter not driving. Uber is the best/worst thing to be created for her. She is prepared to spend as much money/time on Uber to avoid driving. On topic- I think you are kind caring parents who want the best for your children. It's hard to be on the sidelines and watch them make mistakes. I have been accused of being a helicopter parent and it may be true at times but I have no regrets. Sometimes young adults need a helping hand to guide them. I think you are on the right track and will know when it is time to step back and let him fly or temporarily flop. Edited July 29, 2017 by gingersmom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jenny in Florida Posted July 29, 2017 Author Share Posted July 29, 2017 (edited) I would like to gently suggest that you stop making his goals for him. You might say to him that if he wants to do X that's fine or if he wants to do Y that's fine, but when you are posting here that your ultimate goal is to nudge him towards school, and that YOU would sleep better if he had SOME kind of degree....I suspect he is picking up that you would not actually be "fine" with him picking some other path that doesn't include a degree. One more small point of clarification: I thought I said "some kind of 'credential,'" and, if I didn't, I meant to say that. [Edited to add: I just went back and looked. What I said was that I would sleep better knowing he had "one official piece of paper.] Ever since our son was old enough to have these discussions, my husband and I have said that our expectation is that both of our kids will complete some kind of post-secondary training or credential. We are very, very flexible about what that would be, and we have always intended to move heaven and earth to support them emotionally, practically and financially to help them achieve that goal. We have explicitly said over and over and over (and reminded our son multiple times in the last few years) that this does not have to mean a "degree." He is actually dismissive of those assurances, I suspect because he, personally, sees them as us suggesting he "can't" do the college thing. That is about as far from the truth as is possible, of course, but I'm sensitive to the fact that he seems to hear it that way. We (meaning my son, my husband and me, in various combinations) have discussed/floated/suggested an enormous variety of options, some of which he has found on his own and others of which we have thought might interest him, everything from internships and apprenticeships to certificate programs to vocational diplomas all the way up to a traditional four-year degree. And we've batted around all kinds of possible combinations or permutations of any or all of those ideas. He absolutely knows that we are MORE than fine with any path he picks that leads to some kind of recognizable credential. Edited July 30, 2017 by Jenny in Florida 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneStepAtATime Posted July 29, 2017 Share Posted July 29, 2017 OP, it sounds like your son and his girlfriend have worked out a very balanced way of handling things and it shows great character that he is willing to help her and you are not micromanaging his relationship with her and support him. Anxiety can be crippling. It is awesome that he understands and cares enough to try and help. With regard to your hope for feedback regarding integrating a very young adult into the household as in treating him like an adult, I need to run but I may have some suggestions later this afternoon. And with regard to the volunteer work, it sounds like he is honing very useful skills in his chosen field. As you say, a lot of times it is being there, knowing people, etc. that can be HUGE in the theater world. Kuddos to you for recognizing that. Best wishes 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JumpyTheFrog Posted July 29, 2017 Share Posted July 29, 2017 It does sound like he is building up good social capital/connections in his field. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pen Posted July 29, 2017 Share Posted July 29, 2017 (edited) Jenny, What are the 3 classes that ds needs for his AA? OK, then please explain to me how the OP's description "He is perfectly capable of focusing and managing when he deems it important to do so. For example, he has exactly zero issues with inattentiveness or missing deadlines or anything similar when he's at work. Ever since he was little, he's been capable of spending hours at theatre and dance rehearsals and behaving (much better than his peers) backstage. He plans, designs and executes zillions of projects of his choice, with admirable attention to detail. " meshes with executive functioning deficits. Can a person with executive function deficits choose to be attentive and detail oriented at will? What has been posted gives no way to diagnose the boy as either having or not having EF issues, ADHD, etc. Nor can anything posted on WTM boards allow a diagnosis of either neurotypical or not. I think it would be a good idea to get him evaluated by someone competent to do that. The type of description coming from the mom is the sort that could come from a mom of a child with EF type issues, feeling frustrated and not recognizing that there is an issue. And as for the "what does it matter if he gets the associate's or not?" question, even if the degree is not actually required for a job, having it demonstrates a certain basic level of academic ability and work ethic. If I'm a hiring manager and see two 19 y.o. applicants with similar experience but one has an associate's while the other just has a high school diploma, I'm going to prioritize the one with an associate's for an interview. What sort of job? I see people with BA or even higher degrees working as waiters and baristas etc. I guess it may help to have an AA to get these sorts of jobs. In general what I see is that AA degrees are most helpful if they are in a field that has demand for workers. And that is probably not what the ds is going for. eta: what the mom reports the ds being interested in along lines of starting a training school in performing arts type thing, might be helped by having a BA. Maybe. Another vote for executive function issue. Sounds like classic inattentive-type ADHD. He used all of his executive function ability on that one thing and there's no more left for anything else. That's why CEOs and artists have executive assistants and "people" to handle all the extraneous details while they focus on the One Thing.He is still very young. Although you're thinking of him as what should be a college junior, age/maturity wise, he could be barely a high school graduate. You'd help a freshman tick the boxes and get set up, right? It sounds incredibly frustrating, but it's so important to his options in the future. I think I would regret not helping (even though I'd be internally ranting about it) if this wound up hindering him later. You've put so much work in to get him to this stage. You're almost over the top of the hill! I tend to agree with this. His girlfriend does not drive and probably never will. She has fairly serious anxiety issues and is terrified of the entire concept. For the same reason, she cannot/does not use public transportation. If my son does not drive her, then her parents have to do it. And they are, from my point of view, weirdly unsupportive of her. I mean, I know I am a bit crazy on the subject of being willing to drive mine around, but I can't imagine having a young adult in my home, who I know has these challenges and who is trying to go to college, and making it hard for her to get to class. His girlfriend does cover gas and chip in for other expenses when they drive places together. When it comes to tolls, part of the deal is that there are some off-ramps on our highways that no longer accept cash at all. Plus, there is a decent discount for using the e-pass. And there are some locations he travels to frequently that are very difficult to get to at all without using the toll roads. So, clunky as it is, the e-pass is the best solution. Can the girlfriend take care of doing what he needs to do, but seems unable to do, in terms of signing up for classes etc.? One more small point of clarification: I thought I said "some kind of 'credential,'" and, if I didn't, I meant to say that. Ever since he was old enough to have these discussions, my husband and I have said that our expectation is that both of our kids will complete some kind of post-secondary training or credential. We are very, very flexible about what that would be, and we have always intended to move heaven and earth to support them emotionally, practically and financially to help them achieve that goal. We have explicitly said over and over and over (and reminded our son multiple times in the last few years) that this does not have to mean a "degree." He is actually dismissive of those assurances, I suspect because he, personally, sees them as us suggesting he "can't" do the college thing. That is about as far from the truth as is possible, of course, but I'm sensitive to the fact that he seems to hear it that way. We (meaning my son, my husband and me, in various combinations) have discussed/floated/suggested an enormous variety of options, some of which he has found on his own and others of which we have thought might interest him, everything from internships and apprenticeships to certificate programs to vocational diplomas all the way up to a traditional four-year degree. And we've batted around all kinds of possible combinations or permutations of any or all of those ideas. He absolutely knows that we are MORE than fine with any path he picks that leads to some kind of recognizable credential. Could your ds be having an anxiety related problem? Anxious that he cannot do it. Anxious about being on his own if he does do it. ????? Is your son good enough to possibly get into someplace like Juliard? I'm still not understanding how you think he could get a BA by June, 2018? Edited July 29, 2017 by Pen 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jenny in Florida Posted July 29, 2017 Author Share Posted July 29, 2017 (edited) Jenny, What are the 3 classes that ds needs for his AA? He needs another math class, another science class and one more humanities class. What sort of job? I see people with BA or even higher degrees working as waiters and baristas etc. I guess it may help to have an AA to get these sorts of jobs. In general what I see is that AA degrees are most helpful if they are in a field that has demand for workers. And that is probably not what the ds is going for. The reality is that, as a performer, he could actually go ahead and strike out on his own without any degree at all. The associate's, in my mind, serves two purposes: 1. It gives him something to write down on his resume and applications in the space for "degree earned" when he applies for day jobs. 2. It "locks in" the credits he has earned so that if he doesn't finish the bachelor's now and wants to return some years later, he will have greatly increased odds of being able to pick up where he left off, instead of needing to meet a new set of general education requirements. Is your son good enough to possibly get into someplace like Juliard? With appropriate coaching, possibly. As far as I know, though, Juiliard has no program for technical theatre. I'm still not understanding how you think he could get a BA by June, 2018? If he were strategic about selecting classes and not too picky about going for a specific degree, he could finish in a year because he has over 100 credit hours completed, including some upper-division coursework taken at the private university. A generic "theatre studies" degree at the state university requires only 120 credit hours. I've actually looked through the requirements for that degree and matched them up with his current transcripts. Even assuming he might need to fill in with a couple of classes to check off boxes he missed along the way, he should be able to knock off that much in two 15-hour semesters. Edited July 29, 2017 by Jenny in Florida 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guinevere Posted July 29, 2017 Share Posted July 29, 2017 I say, because he's young, help him get through the aa AND the ba. It's another year or a year and a half. Just do it. Then he can sink or swim, but at least he'll do it with a degree, which means probably a little less sinking. So 1.5 more years of not treating him like an adult. I think that's ok. He won't even be drinking age yet! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StephanieZ Posted July 29, 2017 Share Posted July 29, 2017 As tempting it is to agree with your approach and push him out of the nest . . . I honestly think you'd likely be better keeping doing what you're doing and helping him with the adult-ing tasks he's falling down on. Believe me, I know your pain. My eldest is hitting 21 in a few months, and I'm still helping her adult. She's a brilliant, successful, super wonderful person. She just isn't very good at adult-ing yet. She got her water turned off twice last year because she just didn't remember to pay the bill. . . She still hasn't turned in her grad degree application (long story, but she can do it simultaneously with last couple years of undergrad) . . . etc, etc. I get it. I keep nudging, and reminding, and helping. I tried confrontation/arguing/etc. Last summer, she was home, and I spent a couple thousand bucks making her go to an expensive therapist after having a 4 hour neurological-psych eval . . . and, literally, the therapist pretty much tried to get her to use a f8cking google calendar to track tasks/etc. That was the entire point of therapy. She's, by all appearances and strong evidence, one of the happiest and healthiest people you'll ever meet. She just sucks at adult-ing and is not stressed, whatsoever, by her "misses" on adult tasks. I believe, strongly, that her issues are due to her lack of anxiety, and my concerns/issues are that I have too much anxiety. I have no cures or fixes, but I can say that year by year, month by month, she is getting better at adult ing. I think we're getting there. I think she'll get there. I don't think me having fits or trying harder or pushing harder will speed it up. So, I'm choosing to just love her and keep helping her and not fight it. Can't win, so may as well surrender. 10 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lllll Posted July 29, 2017 Share Posted July 29, 2017 (edited) nm Edited August 6, 2017 by lllll 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lanny Posted July 29, 2017 Share Posted July 29, 2017 If he were strategic about selecting classes and not too picky about going for a specific degree, he could finish in a year because he has over 100 credit hours completed, including some upper-division coursework taken at the private university. A generic "theatre studies" degree at the state university requires only 120 credit hours. I've actually looked through the requirements for that degree and matched them up with his current transcripts. Even assuming he might need to fill in with a couple of classes to check off boxes he missed along the way, he should be able to knock off that much in two 15-hour semesters. I have not read all of the posts in this thread, but I've read some more of them, and in one of them it said he has 4 years of college? If he is only 3 courses from an AA degree, and is as close as you think he is to a B.A., I believe you should either make getting an A.A. and a B.A. HIS PRIORITY, or, you stop supporting him and his many interests. His girlfriend pays for some gas and tolls? That's a small part of the cost of operating a car and the time he spends driving her around... He's not her Uber driver. I read something about his long term dream, and I agree, with an upthread post that he needs some short-term goals, like what he will be doing 2 years from now. 4 years from now. He sounds extremely talented, but many people in the Arts are very talented and are struggling to feed themselves and their families. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TechWife Posted July 29, 2017 Share Posted July 29, 2017 Yes, consequences, without a buffer. Some of us have relatives that chose the consequences. My brother did, and we buried him back in 2010 as a result. I hope every one is careful of such advice. Each situation is different and some people are more vulnerable than others. "Tough love" is not a solution for everyone. 10 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wintermom Posted July 29, 2017 Share Posted July 29, 2017 According to you, and his capabilities in handling deadlines with the theatre and performance world is great but not good with the academic world. It seems that he would rather be doing the performance and dance stuff now. As performance seems to be "grab it while the opportunity is there" type of career, perhaps this isn't the time to put all performance on hold. Explore what options he has to finish his degree part-time. Find out how long the college will allow him to complete the AA and/or the BA. Ensure that he complete those courses within that timeline so that he doesn't miss out and have to re-do many or most of the courses later on. There are tons of students who complete degrees on a part-time basis while working. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lanny Posted July 29, 2017 Share Posted July 29, 2017 I believe that he should get a B.A. in something ASAP. Possibly not Theater Arts. Possibly General Studies. Whatever he can get a B.A. degree in the quickest and easiest for him. Studying in a classroom is not something he enjoys. If he doesn't get the B.A. now as someone else wrote the University may change their requirements or what they will give credit for. He is very close and if he doesn't make getting a B.A. in something now his immediate priority he may never get a B.A. degree.That would be sad. Sent from my SM-G355M using Tapatalk 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneStepAtATime Posted July 29, 2017 Share Posted July 29, 2017 OP, here is what I will share... I moved home for a while as a young adult. I was struggling to get a good job in my field. I had already graduated college. I had a part time crappy job and had not found something I could actually live off of. My parents welcomed me with open arms and never made me feel like I had failed or was unwelcome. I could stay as long as I needed. I helped with laundry and groceries and keeping things straightened, I paid for my car expenses (car was old and paid off), I kept them loosely appraised of my schedule, I never invited anyone over without asking them first (respecting that this was their home), and they treated me with love and respect and did not micromanage my life. It worked out very well and I am grateful they helped me. It gave me time to really work hard to find a better job, it gave us some great times as a family that we might not have had otherwise, and they were able to continue to impart valuable knowledge as they helped me navigate those waters. Years later, when they needed me, I was there for them, too. At one point MIL and FIL had their eldest child, her husband and their two kids move back in with them and then their 3rd child and his wife and their new baby move back in with them, and then two college age sons came home for the summer, and they welcomed them all. They worked out schedules for laundry and groceries and various bills and eventually everyone was in a position to move out again. I guess my point is that while I absolutely agree that as parents we need to help prepare our children for being responsible adults, that doesn't have to mean tough love or my way or the highway or whatever. It also doesn't mean we have to be doormats, either. I'm not saying that. But love and compassion coupled with clear communication and support can be a wonderful thing. Best wishes to all. 10 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Susan in TX Posted July 29, 2017 Share Posted July 29, 2017 I think you need to let go and let him decide what he wants to do with his life. It seems to me that he has a good shot at making a career out of dance/theater, and if he were my son I would support those endeavors just as much as going to college. I would not tell my child that they MUST get a degree or a credential. Their life is theirs to live, not mine. If they want to go to college it needs to be their choice. As parents, we need to decide how much support we are willing to provide our adult children and under what circumstances and then clearly communicate that. For my parents, their kids were free to remain living at home and have room and board covered as long as they were willing to live by their rules. They didn't cover any other expenses, except in my case I was the youngest and going to college and I was provided with a car to use and they paid the insurance. Everything else I had to pay for myself, including college tuition. For my husband and I it is pretty much the same. Adult kids can live at home rent free and have meals provided but they need to cover all their other expenses. The only other bill we cover is their cell phone. Once they are out of college or otherwise financially stable they pay for that themselves too. Kids that are going to college get help with room and board costs and other living/college expenses. Susan in TX 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pen Posted July 29, 2017 Share Posted July 29, 2017 If he were strategic about selecting classes and not too picky about going for a specific degree, he could finish in a year because he has over 100 credit hours completed, including some upper-division coursework taken at the private university. A generic "theatre studies" degree at the state university requires only 120 credit hours. I've actually looked through the requirements for that degree and matched them up with his current transcripts. Even assuming he might need to fill in with a couple of classes to check off boxes he missed along the way, he should be able to knock off that much in two 15-hour semesters. I see. Then I'd suggest re-checking with him to see if he still says he wants a degree, or is at least willing to go for it, and if yes, then making first priority trying to scaffold him into getting into the state U program where he can get the BA promptly. I'd personally try to go straight for that, not the AA. Then, assuming that can be done, as he is working on getting that BA degree in one year, maybe a bit longer, be thinking through with him what will come next--including what he will be expected to do if still living at home at that point. I misunderstood from what you wrote about dance, choir, and the super secret performance situation thinking he was aiming for performance --and did not realize he was aiming for tech theater area. I don't know what Juliard has in the technical area. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pen Posted July 29, 2017 Share Posted July 29, 2017 I believe that he should get a B.A. in something ASAP. Possibly not Theater Arts. Possibly General Studies. Whatever he can get a B.A. degree in the quickest and easiest for him. Studying in a classroom is not something he enjoys. If he doesn't get the B.A. now as someone else wrote the University may change their requirements or what they will give credit for. He is very close and if he doesn't make getting a B.A. in something now his immediate priority he may never get a B.A. degree.That would be sad. Sent from my SM-G355M using Tapatalk Given how close he is, and that apparently if parent scaffolds / does the administrative paperwork he can get 4.0 or close, I'd agree. I think he may as well get it in theater arts. That may open more doors, or look better on a CV, in areas he is interested in than a GS major would--and I'm not sure it would hurt him especially in other potential fields. I also think if he'd agree to it that an evaluation to see if there is some EF related problem could possibly help him throughout his life (to know if there is how he might be better able to cope with it...or if there is not, to know that) as much as a BA could. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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