Not going out with opposite sex without spouse

[lovinmyboys]

So, the Mike Pence thing got me thinking about this (again). I understand the concern that it makes it harder for women to have business access to him and therefore more likely to not be hired or promoted. I was kind of surprised that all I saw was a negative reaction though.

 

It got me wondering how common it is for people to go out to eat just one on one for business and not in a group? And, is it ok for a spouse to not be thrilled that their partner does this (even if spouse sees the need for it)? Would people have had the same reaction if he would have said he doesn't go out with women after work hours or if it could be avoided? Or that he doesn't drink when he is alone with a woman?

 

This story was timely for me this week because Dh was in another country with just one female colleague. They got together for drinks in the evenings at the hotel bar. I don't exactly have a problem with it and I know nothing happened. They were both in a non English speaking country and it is nice to have someone to converse with. And I don't think he should avoid her just because she is female. On the other hand, I do think it is a little weird. Like, I wouldn't do it. I would just go to my room and read, but I am more introverted than he is.

 

This is just the most recent example. My Dh is in the army reserves (male dominated) and his civilian job is male dominated too. Yet, somehow he is always the one on work trips with a female colleague (different ones every time). I have never told him (or hinted) that it is a problem for me, because it really isn't. I know nothing happens.But part of me is bothered by it and I don't really know why. Then this week there was the Mike Pence story, and everything I read was really negative about it. Made me think I am for sure being weird.

Edited March 31, 2017 by lovinmyboys

[Guest]

We feel the same way. I will not go out with an individual of the opposite sex alone. My husband won't either. It's a protection for everyone involved and to avoid the appearance of impropriety and any accusation of it.

[Barb_]

At first I thought, "Well that is their prerogative and it doesn't hurt anyone so..." But then I read an article that made me think twice about that. Here is a clip from that article that points out how those sorts of arrangements can be problematic when the husband is in a position of power or mentorship:

 

 

 

"Capitol Hill staffers conducted by National Journal in 2015 found that “several female aides reported that they have been barred from staffing their male bosses at evening events, driving alone with their congressman or senator, or even sitting down one-on-one in his office for fear that others would get the wrong impression.†One told the reporter Sarah Mimms that in 12 years working for her previous boss, he “never took a closed door meeting with me. ... This made sensitive and strategic discussions extremely difficult.â€

 

ETA: forgot the link https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.theatlantic.com/amp/article/521286/

Edited March 31, 2017 by Barb_

[Wheres Toto]

Out to dinner in a public place?  I don't see that as a big deal at all.   Room service closed up in one of their rooms?  Crossing a line there, IMO.

 

I don't think either of us have ever gone out to dinner with a member of the opposite sex without the other though.  Not that I can remember anyway.  I've had male bosses but we only did lunches for occasions where there were more people there.  Dh doesn't travel much and when he has, it's always been with a male co-worker.  

 

I"m positive at some point I've been alone in a conference room or office with a male co-worker or boss.   I'm sure dh has been alone in his lab or office with one of his female employees.  Not an issue at all.

Edited March 31, 2017 by Where's Toto?

[Daria]

Not going out with someone, is different from not eating with someone.

 

I'm going to a training this summer for a week with 1 colleague.  We'll have separate rooms, but will share a rental car.  It seems natural that we'd stop for breakfast and dinner on the way between the hotel and the place where the meeting will happen.  My colleague happens to be female, but I wouldn't do anything different if it was a man. 

 

Similarly, I often eat lunch in my classroom at school.  Sometimes other teachers need to talk to me, so we can coordinate an assessment, or go over a unit plan before I adapt it for students with disabilities.  Given that we have about 30 minutes to eat, I can't imagine not eating our lunch while we're talking.  I would never say "I went out with Mr. So and So" because we both ate pb and j's in the same room.  

[Rosie_0801]

"Capitol Hill staffers conducted by National Journal in 2015 found that “several female aides reported that they have been barred from staffing their male bosses at evening events, driving alone with their congressman or senator, or even sitting down one-on-one in his office for fear that others would get the wrong impression.” One told the reporter Sarah Mimms that in 12 years working for her previous boss, he “never took a closed door meeting with me. ... This made sensitive and strategic discussions extremely difficult.”

 

ETA: forgot the link https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.theatlantic.com/amp/article/521286/

 

If it's that important to have a chaperone, get windows?

[Katy]

It ticks me off every single time DH has to go out of the country with a woman he works with.  Every single time.  DH knows I get irritated by this and uses "coworker" instead of names or pronouns, only to have me get more irritated when his plane gets delayed so I go to pick him up and a woman gets off the plane with him.  I've met these women and I'm sure nothing happens but it still really bugs me.  And I'm not typically a jealous person.

[Jean in Newcastle]

I see absolutely nothing wrong with people of the opposite sex getting together for business in a public setting.  I've worked for years in male dominated settings  - in engineering and then in ministry.  No one in my circle blinks an eye about it.  We don't get together in hotel rooms.  Or have intimate candle lit dinners.  If we meet over a meal it is with file folders and binders and there is absolutely nothing romantic about it!  If we are in a room working on something the door is open or it is a room with a glass wall or some other way where it really is public and there is no threat of hanky panky.  Or we are in a group with other co-workers / co- ministers. 

 

I protect myself from harassment in part by setting up meetings in a way that protects myself.  I protect myself from temptation by controlling my mind.  (Not that that has been an issue.) 

 

I have no problem with my husband (who works in a female dominated setting) from meeting with female co workers. 

[Guest]

Personally, I think it is stupid. If DH wanted to fool around, this policy wouldn't stop him. And, I don't view every male I meet as a possible sex partner so why would I be concerned about being alone with them?? If I wanted to have an affair, promising DH I'd never be alone with another man wouldn't mean much.

[Barb_]

Not going out with someone, is different from not eating with someone.

 

I'm going to a training this summer for a week with 1 colleague. We'll have separate rooms, but will share a rental car. It seems natural that we'd stop for breakfast and dinner on the way between the hotel and the place where the meeting will happen. My colleague happens to be female, but I wouldn't do anything different if it was a man.

 

Similarly, I often eat lunch in my classroom at school. Sometimes other teachers need to talk to me, so we can coordinate an assessment, or go over a unit plan before I adapt it for students with disabilities. Given that we have about 30 minutes to eat, I can't imagine not eating our lunch while we're talking. I would never say "I went out with Mr. So and So" because we both ate pb and j's in the same room.

Yeah I'm pretty sure my husband has eaten lunch or dinner with women he works with plenty of times. Work has to be done; one must eat, and if work and eating can be accomplished at the same time, it's really not necessary to turn it into something it isn't. It's a non-issue here.

[Bluegoat]

Well, this doesn't bother me in m relationship, or dh.  I go out with a male friend pretty often, actually, and dh had a female best friend when we married.

 

But, I know some other people do feel that way.  I think, as far as "feelings" go it isn't something to indulge at work.

 

However, I do think there can in reality be problems with that, whatever the ideal is.  For most people people getting the wrng impression wouldn't matter, but I can see why a prominent person might worry.  And I do understand why a man might want to do things like keep a door open.  Yet both of those things could be a problem in terms of women's work opportunities.

[LucyStoner]

I think it's important to distinguish between social and professional contact.

Refusing to have social contact one on one with members of an entire sex is one's personal prerogative. That's not how I live- one of my best friends is a man who is not my husband. But to each their own.

OTOH, Refusing to have one on one professional contact with one sex that you would with the other is very problematic for a variety of different reasons. One, it reads sexual subtext into a professional setting, and that is inappropriate on its own. Two, if one makes their decisions like that in a professional or civic arena, they may well be discriminating against one sex regarding hiring, job responsibilities, and advancement opportunities. There are other reasons this is troubling, but I'll leave it at those.

I used to work, briefly, for an attorney who was very vocal about leaving doors open and such with me because he didn't want to get accused of sexual harassment. He talked about it so much and so often and so loudly, it became exceedingly uncomfortable for me. I ended up quitting the job because it got to the point where it felt like any female employee was seen more like a possible accusation than an employee. Also, he kept trying to get me to use his vacation cabin, and I started to think he had actual ulterior motives for extending the invite.

OTOH, I worked for other male attorneys and professionals who took precautions to avoid the possible appearance of impropriety but who mentored me and were respectful and never needed to mention, 186 times, they were leaving the door open. And they didn't make creepy offers to use their secluded mountain vacation homes. 😂 Two did offer up some similar perks for their employees, but they did it in a way that was not suspect. They just sent out a group email to the employees who were offered the perk and said: "I'd like to host a party for everyone on my yacht at blah blah marina on such and such date, please feel free to bring your families." OR "My beach cabin is available these weekends, if you'd like to use it, please sign up on this schedule." Sometimes the ones with the most to hide are the most loquacious about it.

Edited April 1, 2017 by LucyStoner

[Bootsie]

I have many male friends and colleagues. I work in a male-dominated profession.  I have been to out of town conferences where I have had meals with a male colleague.  I have been visiting in a city in which we have friends, the wife was out of town, and I have had dinner with the husband.  On several occasions I have traveled abroad with a colleague.  I have directed study abroad programs for college students with a male colleague; there were times we needed to discuss something confidential regarding a student, so that discussion could not take place in the middle of a crowded dining room.

 

Likewise DH has many female friends and colleagues.  He, too, has had breakfast, lunch, dinner, or a cup of coffee without my being present.

 

It has never been an issue for either of us.  It would be odd to us to think that we could have dinner with Colleague A but not Colleague B because of their sex.

[regentrude]

I am astonished that this is even an issue. I have never come across anybody who has this kind of rules.

I don't know with whom my DH is having dinner when he travels; he does have female collaborators whom he goes to see sometimes, and I have no idea whether they are always chaperoned by a grad student. It has not occurred to me that I should ask this, and I am fairly sure it has not occurred to him that this is something he should worry about. 

I work in a male dominated field. I have had meals with male friends and colleagues without DH. I have hiked and climbed with a male friend without my husband. In the woods, just the two of us. And we thought that was a normal thing to do in the late 20th century.

But then, we have also swum unclothed in mountain lakes with people of either gender and thought nothing of it.

 

Edited March 31, 2017 by regentrude

[Murphy101]

At first I thought, "Well that is their prerogative and it doesn't hurt anyone so..." But then I read an article that made me think twice about that. Here is a clip from that article that points out how those sorts of arrangements can be problematic when the husband is in a position of power or mentorship:

 

 

 

"Capitol Hill staffers conducted by National Journal in 2015 found that “several female aides reported that they have been barred from staffing their male bosses at evening events, driving alone with their congressman or senator, or even sitting down one-on-one in his office for fear that others would get the wrong impression.†One told the reporter Sarah Mimms that in 12 years working for her previous boss, he “never took a closed door meeting with me. ... This made sensitive and strategic discussions extremely difficult.â€

 

ETA: forgot the link https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.theatlantic.com/amp/article/521286/

My husband has the same attitude and policy. It's just not worth the professional risk. He has never met a woman behind closed doors. Including his bosses who were women. But also he has never seen a business office that didn't have a window or other means of making it not really a private room. Unless there's some cloak and dagger kind of necessity to the meeting, there's no reason to put his reputation or career at risk. But then again, my husband would never be insane enough to run for political office either.

[regentrude]

At first I thought, "Well that is their prerogative and it doesn't hurt anyone so..." But then I read an article that made me think twice about that. Here is a clip from that article that points out how those sorts of arrangements can be problematic when the husband is in a position of power or mentorship:

 

"Capitol Hill staffers conducted by National Journal in 2015 found that “several female aides reported that they have been barred from staffing their male bosses at evening events, driving alone with their congressman or senator, or even sitting down one-on-one in his office for fear that others would get the wrong impression.†One told the reporter Sarah Mimms that in 12 years working for her previous boss, he “never took a closed door meeting with me. ... This made sensitive and strategic discussions extremely difficult.â€

 

 

If this occurs in professional context, how is that not discriminating the employee based on her gender? How can they legally get away with this?

Edited March 31, 2017 by regentrude

[Lawyer&Mom]

I grab lunch with a male coworker all the time. I've known him for years. We are both married. We both like teriyaki. I wouldn't go out to dinner alone with him, but lunch in broad day light? Not an issue.

[lovinmyboys]

Part of me is glad Dh is that way-like he really treats female colleagues just like male colleagues. And I know not all of the males he works with do. I don't think any of them are really vocal about it, but I think several of them quietly try not to work with the females-not because they don't think they are capable but because they or their spouse aren't completely comfortable with it. I think that is a good portion of the reason that Dh is usually the one working with a female.

 

So, in the logical part of my brain I am really glad that Dh treats females the same way he does males. I think I have just read too many books/seen too many movies where 2 people start working together and then fall in love. In the books I read and movies I watch these are single people, not people having affairs. I know Dh isn't having an affair, and like others have said, he doesn't need to go out of the country to have one.

 

Maybe I am just jealous because I haven't had drinks in a hotel bar with Dh since our honeymoon.

[Barb_]

If this occurs in professional context, how is that not discriminating the employee based on her gender? How can they legally get away with this?

Maybe it's not advertised and just something the female staffers picked up on over time?

[Barb_]

 

Maybe I am just jealous because I haven't had drinks in a hotel bar with Dh since our honeymoon.

Find a sitter and that's an easy fix 😋

[regentrude]

Maybe it's not advertised and just something the female staffers picked up on over time?

 

But apparently, people do come out and say that this is their policy. They admit to treating a female employee/colleague differently than a male one, and as such, they are discriminating on the basis of gender.

 

If a man thinks his beliefs dictate such rules, he should stay in his church, but not be in public office.

[Barb_]

Part of me is glad Dh is that way-like he really treats female colleagues just like male colleagues. And I know not all of the males he works with do. I don't think any of them are really vocal about it, but I think several of them quietly try not to work with the females-not because they don't think they are capable but because they or their spouse aren't completely comfortable with it. I think that is a good portion of the reason that Dh is usually the one working with a female.

 

.

I think the above is why the unwillingness to work with women is inherently unethical. These guys are giving their male colleagues a distinct advantage.

[Barb_]

But apparently, people do come out and say that this is their policy. They admit to treating a female employee/colleague differently than a male one, and as such, they are discriminating on the basis of gender.

 

If a man thinks his beliefs dictate such rules, he should stay in his church, but not be in public office.

Agreed.

[SparklyUnicorn]

My husband rarely goes to business related things after hour, but once went on a business trip where he was often alone with a female coworker.  I was not worried about it at all.  They were both away from home.  They went out to dinner a few times.  If it had been another guy, it would have been the same.  I did not think twice about it.   Should either of them avoided the business trip?  Been not allowed to go?  Refuse to get together after work hours?  That's ridiculous in my mind.

 

I realize stuff happens, but I dunno.  I chalk this up to issues with individuals and not issues with males and females working and eating together. 

 

[Murphy101]

If this occurs in professional context, how is that not discriminating the employee based on her gender? How can they legally get away with this?

That's what dh and I want to know. Did only the female staffer never have a closed door meeting but all the male staffers did? Do has the same professional policy. All his offices have had a window or something that made the office not really visually private. So saying he wouldn't have a private meeting with a woman wasn't a problem bc he wasn't having a private meeting with men either.

Edited March 31, 2017 by Murphy101

[Twolittleboys]

I used to work as an auditor - lots of weeks in hotels, long hours at the client (like 9 to 11) even when in town. The team at a client usually goes out for lunch (unless the company has a cafeteria) and/or dinner. When staying overnight, teams usually stay in the same hotel, have breakfast, lunch and dinner together. Team size depends on the client so often there will be three or more auditors working there. But sometimes there are just two and obviously at times it is a male/female team. I must have gone out for lunch and/or dinner a hundred times with just one male colleague and it is completely harmless. Not sure what could happen at a meal in a public place that couldn't/wouldn't happen when working together in an office?

 

Granted, most of my colleagues were young and unmarried but that should make it even more "dangerous" as you'd think that a wedding band is at least some sort of deterrent. Anyway, I really think it is a bit ridiculous. I guess I see the "not going out alone with someone other than wife/husband" if there is no "reason" - going on a "date" would be a bit strange. But if there is business to discuss (or anything else that makes sense to do during a meal)there is nothing wrong with it.

[Barb_]

The best mentor of my daughter's academic life was a 45 year old man. She blew an interview with him but he saw her potential and spent around 25 hours with her one on one helping her learn to ace technical interviews. Thanks to him she was able to nail the interview for a lucrative job instead of freezing up. If he'd have had misgivings about spending so much time with her, she'd still be crying and thinking she'd wasted her degree. Women need mentors of both sexes.

[kewb]

When I worked full time I went out to eat with male colleagues. I went on business trips with male colleagues. I had closed door meetings with male colleagues.

 

On a personal level, I have gone out to eat with male friends without my husband.

 

My dh has also done all of these things. I just sent him away with a female friend of his for a few days. I couldn't make the trip and neither could her husband. Yet, we all trusted our spouses to be able to control themselves.

 

I do understand that every relationship has their own parameters but from a business standpoint Pence can't say he is about equality while discriminating against women in a professional setting.

[Barb_]

That's what dh and I want to know. Did only the female staffer never have a closed door meeting but all the male staffers did? Do has the same professional policy. All his offices have had a window or something that made the office not really visually private. So saying he wouldn't have a private meeting with a woman wasn't a problem bc he wasn't having a private meeting with men either.

That's a good question, but I'm assuming if this was a blanket policy, she wouldn't have had the same objections. I know my husband has to have closed door meetings. It's the nature of his business. I can imagine politics have to be pretty hush hush at times too. I don't know whether some of his meetings are with just one female colleague--I never thought to ask, actually. But it wouldn't occur to me to be bothered.

[lovinmyboys]

I think the above is why the unwillingness to work with women is inherently unethical. These guys are giving their male colleagues a distinct advantage.

I agree, but honestly I think it would be my natural reaction to do the same thing. I would never publicly (well, except on here lol) say that I didn't feel comfortable working closely with a male colleague. But, I wouldn't be 100% comfortable with it so I would try to quietly find a way to not do it. I wouldn't have a problem having one on one meetings with a male or going out to Starbucks or whatever. But, I would feel weird to travel with them or go for a drink or be in a car with them 10 hours a day. Maybe it is just because I have mostly been around females for the last several years. I will say when I substitute someone I actually know, for "random male colleague" I feel less uncomfortable with it.

[Arcadia]

There is drinking with a meal (lunch, dinner) and only drinking (after dinner). Sit down meal in a brightly lighted bar with a glass of wine or a mug of beer, BTDT and my ex-colleagues wives don't mind. It is all work talk while getting dinner in. Having dinner in a hotel suite's living room is a no thank you unless it is a group.

 

Hotel lobby bar/cafe and only drinking isn't something I have problem with except my ex-colleagues getting drunk. However the hotel staff would help get drunken colleague into a cab if that happens. Bar (nightclub) drinking is a no thank you for work. I have seen plenty of bar top dancing and skimpy clothes at those places and those are not where I want to be to discuss work.

 

If it's that important to have a chaperone, get windows?

The companies I had worked for all had glsss wall conference rooms for meetings policies to protect against sexual harassment lawsuits. That is even if everyone in that meeting is male or female.  One of my ex-boss is actually scared of sexual harassment by female staff. There was some extremely flirtatious staff in that office.

 

Personally, I think it is stupid. If DH wanted to fool around, this policy wouldn't stop him. And, I don't view every male I meet as a possible sex partner so why would I be concerned about being alone with them?? If I wanted to have an affair, promising DH I'd never be alone with another man wouldn't mean much.

My husband's ex-colleague reported to HR that her boss molested her after she didn't get a promotion she wanted. It took many months to sort it out. They were having an affair in this case and many people had witness her hitting on her boss.

[Barb_]

I agree, but honestly I think it would be my natural reaction to do the same thing. I would never publicly (well, except on here lol) say that I didn't feel comfortable working closely with a male colleague. But, I wouldn't be 100% comfortable with it so I would try to quietly find a way to not do it. I wouldn't have a problem having one on one meetings with a male or going out to Starbucks or whatever. But, I would feel weird to travel with them or go for a drink or be in a car with them 10 hours a day. Maybe it is just because I have mostly been around females for the last several years. I will say when I substitute someone I actually know, for "random male colleague" I feel less uncomfortable with it.

It sounds like you'd maybe probably acknowledge it and then get past in a professional setting. Kind of like a doctor has to get past seeing people naked, lol. It may be natural for some people to feel bothered, but it's not really appropriate or fair to carry it into the workplace.

[Twolittleboys]

Just wanted to add: IF one is worried about this then one would need to worry about men and women working closely together no matter if alone or not. I mean obviously nothing is going to happen in a crowded restaurant anyway (I'd assume?). I do think there is some danger of developing feelings when working together (especially if it involves long hours/stressful work). That does of course not mean that anything needs to come of it. But I think working together/spending much time together is at least as "dangerous" as sharing a meal or two. So unless we want to segregate work by gender people will just have to deal with it (or choose a profession that doesn't require this).

[G5052]

I agree that if you follow that rule, getting things done will be hard.

 

I worked in a male-dominated STEM field for 15 years before kids. I had to meet with and visit men in the context of my work. Sometime classified or sensitive issues had to be discussed with the door closed. Many times my meetings involved meeting for lunch, or we went to lunch because we hadn't finished. If I had set the same rule, it would have seriously affected my work.

 

That said, I always said "just lunch" if I wasn't travelling and made sure it was a public place like the cafeteria or a busy sandwich place if it was just 1-on-1. No dimly lit restaurants or bars. If possible, I encouraged others to come along.

 

When I travelled on business, I had similar rules. As much as was feasible, I drove myself or took a taxi there and back. But I didn't stress if I had to ride with and go to dinner with a man when I was travelling because we were sharing a car or under other circumstances where it made sense. I used to go to a facility where a VP would come from corporate headquarters sometimes when I was there. He was a grandfatherly type and belonged to an exclusive club there with a gated entrance. I knew him well, and it made more sense for him to pick me up when we had a dinner meeting.

 

I always kept the conversation general, and steered it back if it went over the line. Once I had an officemate who kept saying that he felt like he had a better "connection" with me than he did with his wife and sometimes he made comments about my appearance that made me uncomfortable. I kept deflecting that until I was able to move to another office. Later on I had other male office mates that I joked around with and sometimes shared everyday things with, but it was never in an unprofessional way. There's a difference.

 

[SparklyUnicorn]

There are no females in my life.  So maybe for me it would be weird to hang out with females. 

 

For me I'm more uncomfortable with certain personality types rather than whether or not someone is male/female.  For example, I do not care for most of the sale's people where DH works (I've been to a few after hours business functions).  These guys (yes mostly guys) are a special um...breed of people.  I absolutely do not feel comfortable around them. 

[SKL]

I thought he was not going out *alone* with the opposite sex.  If a meeting is business, then there is no need to go as a couple.

 

I think it's a wise decision for various reasons.  For one thing, it's hard to be falsely accused of impropriety if a third party was there the whole time.

 

I've had a couple of married guys ask me to breakfast to talk about business, and next thing I know they are trying to have a fling.  I'm sure women do the same at times.  I would rather not meet privately when it isn't necessary.

[SKL]

And I'm sure the vice prez always has someone available to be the 3rd person at the table.

[Sneezyone]

I thought he was not going out *alone* with the opposite sex. If a meeting is business, then there is no need to go as a couple.

 

I think it's a wise decision for various reasons. For one thing, it's hard to be falsely accused of impropriety if a third party was there the whole time.

 

I've had a couple of married guys ask me to breakfast to talk about business, and next thing I know they are trying to have a fling. I'm sure women do the same at times. I would rather not meet privately when it isn't necessary.

Men and women do this in the office too. In front of people. The location rarely holds people back.

[Murphy101]

Men and women do this in the office too. In front of people. The location rarely holds people back.

True but it's sure helpful to have witnesses around.

[DesertBlossom]

I think having a self-imposed rule is just fine. My dad used to take his secretary out for lunch on Secretary's Day but always made sure to bring someone else along. Not because he was worried "something would happen." But just to avoid any appearance of impropriety.

 

Developing feelings for someone you spend a lot of time with is not unheard of. It happens.

[Bootsie]

Personally, I would be more concerned if DH DID refuse to go to dinner with a female colleague or friend.  I would read that as he was seeing them as sex objects rather than colleagues or friends.  

 

I would also prefer that DH go to dinner with a female colleague (and even have a beer) than go out with all of the guys to a place where there is talk and behavior I find demeaning toward women.  

[Barb_]

Personally, I would be more concerned if DH DID refuse to go to dinner with a female colleague or friend. I would read that as he was seeing them as sex objects rather than colleagues or friends.

 

I would also prefer that DH go to dinner with a female colleague (and even have a beer) than go out with all of the guys to a place where there is talk and behavior I find demeaning toward women.

That's a good point. It's good to normalize opposite sex friendships. It helps everyone see each other as just human beings.

[Bootsie]

I was also shocked a number of times when my kids were little and another mother would say, "Bobby would really like to play more with your son; we are going to the park Friday morning, would you like to meet us there?"  I would respond that my son would probably enjoy that, I was working Friday morning, but I would check with DH and see if they could make it.  Then I would get a response of, "Oh I don't know if that will work; I don't think my husband can come, too, then."

 

What???  You have a couple of kids in tow?  DH will have a couple of kids in tow? You would be going to a public park to let the children play? It didn't occur to me that that would be an issue.

[Lanny]

I worked as an Engineer in one company years ago and am still in  occasional contact with several of the people I worked with.  There were a lot of great people working there at that time.  One of them was a woman who was in the same office with me and some others, including one other woman. I think there were   5 or 6 of us in that room.  She has a DH (she still has the same one in 2017...).   I don't know how many times we went out to eat Lunch somewhere. Occasionally we exchange emails and I called her on our magicJack once or twice. We are friends. Nothing more.  

[madteaparty]

Well, neither my DH nor I could do our respective jobs, for one.

I won't get into the medieval connotations.

[Bluegoat]

There is drinking with a meal (lunch, dinner) and only drinking (after dinner). Sit down meal in a brightly lighted bar with a glass of wine or a mug of beer, BTDT and my ex-colleagues wives don't mind. It is all work talk while getting dinner in. Having dinner in a hotel suite's living room is a no thank you unless it is a group.

 

Hotel lobby bar/cafe and only drinking isn't something I have problem with except my ex-colleagues getting drunk. However the hotel staff would help get drunken colleague into a cab if that happens. Bar (nightclub) drinking is a no thank you for work. I have seen plenty of bar top dancing and skimpy clothes at those places and those are not where I want to be to discuss work.

 

The companies I had worked for all had glsss wall conference rooms for meetings policies to protect against sexual harassment lawsuits. That is even if everyone in that meeting is male or female.  One of my ex-boss is actually scared of sexual harassment by female staff. There was some extremely flirtatious staff in that office.

 

My husband's ex-colleague reported to HR that her boss molested her after she didn't get a promotion she wanted. It took many months to sort it out. They were having an affair in this case and many people had witness her hitting on her boss.

 

When I was in the army, there was the same issue of worries around sexual harrasment.  And while in part it was mean to protect women, particularly in a subordinate position, it absolutly was also to protect the men from being accused - and unfortunately I don't think either thing was unheard of.

 

I think it's difficult for this sort of thing to not impact working relations between the sexes.  But ifI were a man in that position, I don't know that I would take the risk of being accused of something, whether that made me seem unprofessional or not.

[poppy]

And I'm sure the vice prez always has someone available to be the 3rd person at the table.

 

Right, a chaperone.

 

I think it's obvious that the fact Pence's political subgroup is exclusively male , and that Pence's political subgroup will not 1:1 mentor women is  not a coincidence. 

[Murphy101]

I was also shocked a number of times when my kids were little and another mother would say, "Bobby would really like to play more with your son; we are going to the park Friday morning, would you like to meet us there?" I would respond that my son would probably enjoy that, I was working Friday morning, but I would check with DH and see if they could make it. Then I would get a response of, "Oh I don't know if that will work; I don't think my husband can come, too, then."

 

What??? You have a couple of kids in tow? DH will have a couple of kids in tow? You would be going to a public park to let the children play? It didn't occur to me that that would be an issue.

It actually can be a problem for home school dads trying to be involved in home school groups.

 

I would and have meet men for play dates or whatever with our kids. I'm not "meeting alone". I have a few mini tattle tales in tow.

[Lanny]

OP: Thanks!  I lost contact with one of the guys who was also in that room at that company, about 6 years ago. Not sure where his phone number is and his name is fairly common...  I found him on Linkedin and then found (I think) their phone number online.  I'll give them a call over the weekend.  He married a woman who was a Secretary in our company.  I went to their wedding. 

[Barb_]

It actually can be a problem for home school dads trying to be involved in home school groups.

 

I would and have meet men for play dates or whatever with our kids. I'm not "meeting alone". I have a few mini tattle tales in tow.

I imagine being a stay at home dad can be terribly socially isolating.