Bullied Kid hangs himself- What the ??

[Tiramisu]

Me too, but it was in the 90s. I've had epilepsy since I was twelve, and kids used to pass me in the hall and pretend to fall down having seizures. Then they'd scream that I was a freak, among other things. The teachers always seemed to find this mildly amusing. Or the football players would sit on the benches along the many corridor and rate girls as they walked by. Those of us who were unpopular would get "One!" with gagging sounds for effect. One time a particularly awful boy told me I should just kill myself so no one would have to look at me again. Even my "friend" used to tell me I was ugly and how sorry she felt for me.

 

Definitely not new.

I wish I could go back in time and give you a big hug.

[Bluegoat]

I had reason to do some research on suicides related to bullying a while ago.  The conclusion that seemed the most well supported was that while it happens, it's also become kind of a media-imposed narrative that often doesn't really account for the situation - often there is a lot more going on that gets ignored, that might itself be more primary to the bullying, or sometimes it is even just an invention.

 

It also seemed to be fairly well accepted among the experts that the media attention on these incidents tends to create real problems for other kids, and that some of the crises-response approaches that were popular for a while were a problem as well.

 

I always feel sad about stories like this, but I now tend to take the explanations of what went on with a grain of salt as well.

[Tiramisu]

Yup. It's alive and well in homeschooling. My daughter STILL suffers anxiety when we drive by her old dance studio because of the Mean Girl ugliness she dealt with last spring. She has to see MG this week for an enrichment class and she's already mentally prepping herself. And MG's mom is still in denial. I think that (parental denial) is the biggest reason bullying continues. Yes, kids can behave badly and be jerks to one another sometimes. None of our kids are perfect. But if you, the parent, don't step in and take the lead in stopping the behavior you are a part of the problem.

So true. Alive and well. For us, it's been worse than the experiences we had in ps.

 

Two of my girls have been the victims of homeschooled mean girls. I sent one of them to school in part to get away from them because it was so destructive and she became so depressed. I needed her to find someone who would be nice to her. It's been going on for six years, and I know a rumor could start or nasty comment made tomorrow. I'm just waiting for the next thing.

 

Once people know my girls, they prove themselves; but mean gossip had been spread about them among people who don't know them well and it's been very hurtful. The parents are no help, even when what happened can be proven by texts, etc.

 

It's very hard when they go to the same church, and that's been somewhat damaging to our faith.

[Anne in CA]

Middle school. I went to my first funeral for a classmate that committed suicide because of bullying my 7th or 8th grade year.

 

It all seems to hit critical mass in middle school.

 

Schools are institutions that are not set up to model healthy socialization. Too many children, too few teachers as mentors, etc. etc.

I could go on and on... but it still rests with the parents. If we don't take action, who will?

 

The bulk of bullying happens during stolen moments; passing between classes, bathroom breaks, etc. There is no way for teachers to see every act but it does not excuse the disbelief when a parent or child tries to alert the teacher/counselor/principal and they deny there is truly a problem. Adult failure on a professional and personal level.

 

We recently removed our children from a small catholic school because of bullying. We were a new parish family and it was made clear to us that they protect their *own*. They also protect those non-parishioners that are allowed to park their kid with behavioral issues because they throw around a lot of money.

 

After managing stomach aches and tears and missed school days for nearly 6 months we met with the principal and counselor. We had the school counselor state outright she did not believe us and that she would not be addressing the behavioral issues because she just *knew* the named children could not be acting out how we described. Long story short, we withdrew them a week later. Our kids were 'A' students with no behavioral issues but we were not legacy or cash cows.

 

The kids are easy, it's the adults that are hard. At the end of the day it all rests with the "adults".

I had a coworker whose dd was horribly bullied at a small Catholic school and the school administration sided with the bullies all the way. I have a friend who taught at that school and she told me that the girls who were bullying caused a tremendous amount of grief for the school through out the rest of junior high and high school after they figured out they were untouchable. The school ended up paying a steep price for their bad behavior. If it makes you feel better.

[Alicia64]

As bad as bullying has always been -- and I thought it was awful as a kid -- I think bullying over social media is a whole new dimension to bullying. A situation where the details could have been kept contained -- to some extent -- can spread like wild fire with social media leaving the victim feeling incredibly vulnerable and exposed.

 

I'm glad I'm not a kid today. :sad:

 

Alley

 

 

[foxbridgeacademy]

I always wonder how a parent coukd allow their child to be continually subject to this kind of treatment. I would definitely pull my kid from school and never allow them to return.

 

Then I feel badly for thinking these thoughts, and repeat them again when another story comes out.

 

I just don't understand sending their kid into such a horrible, harsh environment day after day, yet my heart breaks for those parents.

 

Yes, I am conflicted.

:iagree: I find myself thinking "why didn't they pull their son out of that school, I'd quit my job to HS or move because no amount of money would be worth my child's life, I'd go on food stamps, live with my MOTHER if I had to." then yes, I feel guilty for victim/parent blaming. 

Edited August 18, 2016 by foxbridgeacademy

[Scarlett]

Me too, but it was in the 90s. I've had epilepsy since I was twelve, and kids used to pass me in the hall and pretend to fall down having seizures. Then they'd scream that I was a freak, among other things. The teachers always seemed to find this mildly amusing. Or the football players would sit on the benches along the many corridor and rate girls as they walked by. Those of us who were unpopular would get "One!" with gagging sounds for effect. One time a particularly awful boy told me I should just kill myself so no one would have to look at me again. Even my "friend" used to tell me I was ugly and how sorry she felt for me.

 

Definitely not new.

This just made me ill. I can't even imagine what kind of kids treat anyone this way. I am sorry you endured that.

[HSmomof2]

 

NM

Edited September 30, 2017 by Bethany Grace

[gardenmom5]

Why don't the schools do something? 

 

They pay all this lip service to not bullying and then do nothing when it comes to their attention? 

 

two words.  lip.  service.

 

Me too, but it was in the 90s. I've had epilepsy since I was twelve, and kids used to pass me in the hall and pretend to fall down having seizures. Then they'd scream that I was a freak, among other things. The teachers always seemed to find this mildly amusing. Or the football players would sit on the benches along the many corridor and rate girls as they walked by. Those of us who were unpopular would get "One!" with gagging sounds for effect. One time a particularly awful boy told me I should just kill myself so no one would have to look at me again. Even my "friend" used to tell me I was ugly and how sorry she felt for me. 

 

Definitely not new.

it's always saddened me the number of teachers who end up as part of the problem.  to the point - a teacher actually doing something left me in shock.  (and made me want to cry because someone actually cared.)

 

Those aren't the 70's I remember.   Bullies were jerks. 

 

the only bullies I knew who were considered "jerks" were the ones who bullied a mentally handicapped kid in our class.   they were the ONLY bullies the "normal' kids would call on the carpet for  their carp.  all the other bulling was done with impunity.

 

I did not want to "like" your post in case that seemed insensitive. This also happened to me in the parochial school I attended for years. I also thought about ending my life since the "teasing" as it was called, was daily.

 

That experience is one of the primary reasons why I wanted to homeschool my children.

I don't consider liking that insensitive.

yeah - adults did tend to dismiss it all as "harmless" 'teasing'.

 

The bullying is nothing new, though the social media aspect of it is, for obvious reasons.  However, statistically speaking, teen/adolecent suicide is up.  And while it's not a popular opinion, I think the fact that we pay SO MUCH attention to it is part of the reason.  When my oldest was in high school, it really seemed like EVERY kid talked about killing themselves.  And then they ended being called down by the school counselors, and they were out of class, and everyone paid attention.  I don't really know how to describe it without sounding offensive, but really, when my oldest was in high school, it seemed that talk of committing suicide was just thrown around the way that it simply wasn't when I was in school or when DH was in high school (DH is 7.5 yrs older than me, so in terms of high school experiences there is an age related difference.) I can't help but believe that is a factor in how the teen suicide rate has climbed. 

 

 

 

you're right.  you do make it sound offensive. you make it sound as though you think people throw -the desire to kill themselves - around as nothing more than a drama prop.  the bullying started in elementary school, and became intolerable in jr high.  btw: my father committed suicide on father's day the year I turned 12.

 

i thought about different ways I could kill myself.  different methods, and what they would feel like.  i didn't tell anyone else - what would be the point? not even my mother came across as giving a rip.

 

This.

 

It has only been in recent generations that suicide was talked about openly. There are suicides in my family's history and the older generation always calls them "unfortunate accidents" and shake their heads. So I'm inclined to think that their isn't a rise in numbers so much as these tragedies are simply being more accurately reported now.

 

Since the law sides with the bully, after all Buford deserves an education too even if that means it occurs at everyone else's expense, schools do pretty much nothing. And with zero tolerance policies in place, students who end up needing to defend themselves from physical abuse, can be expelled or otherwise punished for having the nerve to stand up for themselves. The stupid is deep in the system. I can only imagine the mental trauma these targeted children endure.

 

same in mine.  my mother talked about how my grandmother *relished* telling my grandfather "you father killed himself".  however, his death certificate lists cause of death as a hunting accident while climbing a fence.   the only one listed remotely as suicide is a great-uncle's 1st wife who threw herself down a well.  (probably post-partum psychosis - the baby was over 1yo by that time.)   I didn't hear about them until I was an adult.  

[hopskipjump]

What the h*ll is wrong with kids today.  Why is there so much bullying? How is the ball getting dropped?

So many questions.  So sad.  I hope these kids get in some trouble.  The school did nothing about it, even though the family complained. 

 

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/13-year-old-boy-kills-self-describes-being-bullied-in-emotional-note/ar-BBvB0HV?li=BBnbfcL

 

n/m :)

Edited August 15, 2016 by hopskipjump

[gardenmom5]

I always wonder how a parent coukd allow their child to be continually subject to this kind of treatment. I would definitely pull my kid from school and never allow them to return.

 

Then I feel badly for thinking these thoughts, and repeat them again when another story comes out.

 

I just don't understand sending their kid into such a horrible, harsh environment day after day, yet my heart breaks for those parents.

 

Yes, I am conflicted.

 

some parents are clueless.

 

My *liberal* maternal grandmother did nothing to protect my mother from bullying - but when she saw a white girl holding hands with a black boy at the high school - she ran out and bought a house in a lily white part of town that fed to a lily white school. (I am not kidding.)

 

my grandmother was a manipulative witch - and a bully herself.   She engaged in typical grooming behavior.  so, my mother grew up being *groomed* for abuse by her own mother.  same with me. I was socially awkward with learning disabilities. I was pulled out for speech therapy in elementary school, probably kindergarten.   I was always being pulled out to the resource room for academic help because I was so far behind.  I am sure today, I would be diagnosed with autism spectrum.  bullying started in early grades and got worse from there.  high school was actually an improvement (though didn't end.) as the bullies  moved on to new interests - like getting stoned in the parking lot.

 

the typical responses from my familial adults was "they're just teasing", "ignore them", etc. etc.  all - the message always: you need  to develop a thicker skin.  there are things that would legally qualify as assault, but bullies were never held accountable.  even the school would turn it around as though I was the instigator.  Most admins don't want to deal with it becasue to do so would require a backbone and to stick their own neck out in an uncomfortable position.

 

I used to beg my mother to let me go to another school - she'd shut me down.  eventually, school was something to survive until I could get out. 

 

dh just had  his hs reunion.  he's gone to the last four  - and enjoyed them.  I seriously debated my 20 - and didn't go because it would just be too painful.   there were kids I went to school with from kindergarten to high school, some I had fond memories, but much that didn't deserve to be remembered.  I debated my 30, but it became moot because we'd already made travel plans and paid for everything.  I doubt I'd go to my 40.   for those who brush it off - the damage can last a lifetime.

[Carol in Cal.]

One thing that happens now is that the internet is involved.

So it's around forever, whatever is said, it's so indelible.

At one time, sure people could get very hurt feelings and be embarrassed and sometimes even physically scared, but now they can be permanently shamed and have their faces rubbed in this 24/7--no respite, no relief.  Also in general I think there is some evidence that suicide is a bit contagious, and it's far more publicized now than when I was a kid.  I don't know the stats but wouldn't be surprised if the suicide rate among kids is higher now because of that.

[maize]

Yes, the damage has been shown to be long lasting.

 

And the longterm effects of verbal bullying can be worse than those of physical bullying.

[Shred Betty]

I know our school takes bullying VERY seriously and comes down hard on kids when it's seen (even kicking kids out of school on suspension when needed),

 

Last year of PS gr 1 I thought my dd's school had made moves to checkmate bullying. No idea if they suspend kids or anything, or if it was lip service or not, but .... I got a notice in the mail from the school last week saying they are taking steps to eliminate suspensions and other forms of punishment for behavior problems. SMH what are they going to do then, other than just sweep issues under the rug?

[sewingmama]

I have PTSD from bullying due to a physical defect. Teachers knew and did nothing. The one time I defended myself ...and by defend I mean I gave them the finger (or flipped the bird in Americanese) I was the one who got in trouble...they told on ME and I said nothing to the teacher as I was too embarrassed to say why they were bullying me.

 

I didnt kill myself because I was too afraid to..but I considered it....a lot.

[Garga]

Mostly the kids just completely, totally ignored me. They were obvious about it. I was clearly hated by the kids in school. You don't ever want the feeling of knowing full well that you are walking into a roomful of people who just can't stand your presence. Everywhere you look, no one will give you eye contact. Or if they do, they sneer or look away as quickly as they can. It's humiliating.

 

There were lots of little digs, but the vast majority of the time, I was just all alone. And I was ashamed because everyone knew that no one liked me. I finally did get a friend in 10th grade.

 

I cried for about an hour every single night from 5th-11th grade. Every night. I'd go to bed early so I could cry because it was the only release of the pain. Big sobby tears into my teddy bear for a half hour to an hour. Every night for 7 years.

 

Through it all, I managed to think I was still a good person. My family loved me and were quirky and they understood me, even if no one else did. I just wondered why no one else liked me at all? They just couldn't stand me. They honestly couldn't seem to bear to be in my presence.

 

However, I used to think how lovely it would be if all those kids at school died somehow. And I remember a school shooting that happened at some school far away when I was in high school. The police asked the boy, "Why?" He said, "I just couldn't take it anymore." And I felt I understand exactly what he meant. I knew I'd never actually shoot someone, but I knew what it was like to wish they were all dead. Again, I'd have never hurt anyone, but boy did I hate those kids. I remember nodding when the newscaster reported that he said he couldn't take it anymore. It was like, "Yes, I know what that feels like."

 

I feel such pain for the kids who comitt suicide. I hate it that the bullies win. It's overwhelming how much I hate it that these bullied kids die because of the bullies.

 

And bullies don't care. They just don't care. They think your pain is funny. They're so twisted and sick inside. I watched Stranger Things recently and the scenes with the high school students making fun of the older brother? And the scenes with the middle school kids picking on the boys? Yeah--that's what bullies are like. There is no remorse. They honestly don't care if you hurt. They like it if you hurt.

 

I went to couselling with a gentle woman at my church. I forgave all the kids who hurt me, with God's help. Before counselling, I would feel pain when I thought of my memories of childhood. Now there's no pain. It happened, it's a shame, but the effects are gone. I am free. There is no pain anymore and there hasn't been any in about 8 years now. I'm not upset when I type any of this. To me, it's just factual and how it was and how bullies are. The only pain I feel is thinking of those kids who kill themselves.

 

My high school graduation day was the 2nd best day of my life. First was a tie for the the birth of my kids, second was graduation, and 3rd was getting married. Sorry, dh, but the torment ending at school was better than anything else that happened to me other than the days the kids were born.

 

For me, the biggest effect of bullying is that I couldn't bear the thought of college. I was smart enough to go pretty easily, but I thought college would be just 4 more years of high school so I didn't go. I hope to finally go to college when I'm 50 and the kids are done homeschool.

Edited August 15, 2016 by Garga

[katilac]

In addition to working on the bullies, I think we need to work on teaching the kids to be bully proof.  

 

 

I have to say that I really dislike the term bully proof. Yes, there are certain strategies that can be taught that might reduce the chances of getting bullied, but you can't teach every kid to be "bully proof."

 

And if that's the term used, what kind of a loser do you feel like when you finish the bully proof program and still get bullied? 

[gardenmom5]

Mostly the kids just completely, totally ignored me. They were obvious about it. I was clearly hated by the kids in school. You don't ever want the feeling of knowing full well that you are walking into a roomful of people who just can't stand your presence. Everywhere you look, no one will give you eye contact. Or if they do, they sneer or look away as quickly as they can. It's humiliating.

 

There were lots of little digs, but the vast majority of the time, I was just all alone. And I was ashamed because everyone knew that no one liked me. I finally did get a friend in 10th grade.

 

I cried for about an hour every single night from 5th-11th grade. Every night. I'd go to bed early so I could cry because it was the only release of the pain. Big sobby tears into my teddy bear for a half hour to an hour. Every night for 7 years.

 

Through it all, I managed to think I was still a good person. My family loved me and were quirky and they understood me, even if no one else did. I just wondered why no one else liked me at all? They just couldn't stand me. They honestly couldn't seem to bear to be in my presence.

 

However, I used to think how lovely it would be if all those kids at school died somehow. And I remember a school shooting that happened at some school far away when I was in high school. The police asked the boy, "Why?" He said, "I just couldn't take it anymore." And I felt I understand exactly what he meant. I knew I'd never actually shoot someone, but I knew what it was like to wish they were all dead. Again, I'd have never hurt anyone, but boy did I hate those kids. I remember nodding when the newscaster reported that he said he couldn't take it anymore. It was like, "Yes, I know what that feels like."

 

I feel such pain for the kids who comitt suicide. I hate it that the bullies win. It's overwhelming how much I hate it that these bullied kids die because of the bullies.

 

And bullies don't care. They just don't care. They think your pain is funny. They're so twisted and sick inside. I watched Stranger Things recently and the scenes with the high school students making fun of the older brother? And the scenes with the middle school kids picking on the boys? Yeah--that's what bullies are like. There is no remorse. They honestly don't care if you hurt. They like it if you hurt.

 

I went to couselling with a gentle woman at my church. I forgave all the kids who hurt me, with God's help. Before counselling, I would feel pain when I thought of my memories of childhood. Now there's no pain. It happened, it's a shame, but the effects are gone. I am free. There is no pain anymore and there hasn't been any in about 8 years now. I'm not upset when I type any of this. To me, it's just factual and how it was and how bullies are. The only pain I feel is thinking of those kids who kill themselves.

 

My high school graduation day was the 2nd best day of my life. First was a tie for the the birth of my kids, second was graduation, and 3rd was getting married. Sorry, dh, but the torment ending at school was better than anything else that happened to me other than the days the kids were born.

 

For me, the biggest effect of bullying is that I couldn't bear the thought of college. I was smart enough to go pretty easily, but I thought college would be just 4 more years of high school so I didn't go. I hope to finally go to college when I'm 50 and the kids are done homeschool.

 

first-hugs.

 

2nd to the bolded.  I confronted one set - they were not as invested in their bullying as some.  anyway- I confronted them, and they insisted it was all just a joke.  they were 'just having some fun'. not sure where I got the gumption to tell them off, but I didn't back down and just kept pushing my point that they were being plain mean.   they backed off, and never caused me trouble again.

 

I barely kept my head afloat in school. I was just too worn out trying to survive - and I was still expected to do such mundanities as homework?   I recall objecting to a book we had to read in an english class. only later did I realize the feelings it evoked were too close to things wrong in my own life.

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

Are more kids getting bullied, are more children committing suicide, or are more stories making the news?

 

 

What this child went through is heartbreaking.  My heart reaches out to his family.  :(   I cannot even imagine their pain.  I think the issue is so much more complex than "what is wrong with kids these days".  America has done everything in its power to stunt childhood: removing free play and replacing it with scheduled activities.  Removing opportunities to teach children social graces and compassion and replacing them with scripts and carrot/stick methods.  Peppering tv and the news with constant stories of violence.  There just isn't.....there isn't one finger to point here, or even knowing where to point it.

You mention free play but often this meant free range when I was a kid in 60s and 70s. Let's just say I was very lucky on multiple occasions that nothing very bad happened to me. Having experienced free range myself, I think organized and most importantly supervised activities are a good thing. With supervision, there are multiple opportunities to teach social graces and compassion whereas with free range it is more like Lord of the Flies stuff IMHO.

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

I have to say that I really dislike the term bully proof. Yes, there are certain strategies that can be taught that might reduce the chances of getting bullied, but you can't teach every kid to be "bully proof."

 

And if that's the term used, what kind of a loser do you feel like when you finish the bully proof program and still get bullied? 

I agree with this. I was bullied and my kid has experienced some bullying. I have been very careful to emphasize to him that the bullies are always wrong when I have given him strategies that might minimize bullying. I never want him to think that him being bullied is his fault. I also have always let the school and his teachers know that I expected them to help. Lastly, I always let my kid know that we could always homeschool as we have done previously. Thankfully these episodes have always been short lived and ended early in the school year the past several years. If it did not or if the bullying became worse, I would just pull him out even if he objected since I know how harmful  bullying is.

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

There is a way to fix it.  If these are minors bullying other kids as it typically is, the parents of said minors need to get into their business and know every single thing their kid is doing online.  It is your job as a parent; you are responsible for what is happening on your internet connection. Then you come down hard if you discover one of the little monsters is yours.  It should be easier than ever to fix it.  Back in the day, it was one kid's word against another's.  Today, there is a digital record of almost everything that happens. They just can help themselves.  They record everything. 

 

If they are 18, file a police report and hopefully they will be charged with harassment. 

Actually, I think that you can file a police report no matter the age of the offender. I know that I would definitely seek that route if it were my kid and what he experienced was against the law.

[creekland]

Last year of PS gr 1 I thought my dd's school had made moves to checkmate bullying. No idea if they suspend kids or anything, or if it was lip service or not, but .... I got a notice in the mail from the school last week saying they are taking steps to eliminate suspensions and other forms of punishment for behavior problems. SMH what are they going to do then, other than just sweep issues under the rug?

 

Suspension has actually proven not to be a very effective form of punishment or anything else.  Think about it... the kid getting suspended doesn't really want to be in school anyway and isn't exactly a model citizen, so what should we do?  Toss him out so he can see the errors of his ways?  Perhaps that works when parents are involved as parents, but in many of these situations, they aren't.  It ends up being a gift to these kids - and can cause terror on the streets (unless they just opt for drugs or video games) - so is a "win" for no one.

 

But you're right... keeping them in class (if it was a classroom offense) isn't always the right answer either.

 

Our school tends to do in-school suspension.  The kids are pulled out of class and kept in a small room with a supervisor who allows no grace.  They have their assignments and either work on them, read, or sit there. No cell phones. They eat lunch in that room.  It becomes a long boring day.  This can help significantly with behavior, but it doesn't always help with progression academically - esp if they miss something important.  It is still a better solution than out of school vacation suspension.

 

BUT, there are still kids who can't handle being in a classroom.  This past year our school experimented with pulling them out and having them do their class separately, sometimes online, sometimes with a book and some tutoring, in another well supervised classroom.  I'm not sure what they felt the results were of that, but teachers appreciated being able to get the bad apples out of their classrooms.  Most of these kids drop out as soon as they are old enough.  A few manage to get enough credits to graduate.  The kids get counseling and any other aid they need, but there is no simple answer.

 

I get a chuckle out of all the people wondering why schools do nothing even when things are verbally reported.  Have they checked with our legal system?  There's little one can do on a verbal accusation - esp when that accusation comes from a third party (parents).  EVERY incident reported at our school (by anyone) gets investigated, but if admin ends up with a "he said, she said" situation, what, exactly, do folks think a school can legally do?  How is the school supposed to know who is telling the truth?  Are those of us who work in schools supposed to have magical powers?

 

So what does happen?  Both parties and any potential witnesses get interviewed.  A report is written down.  We now also have security cameras in some places, so if applicable, tapes get checked.  (FWIW, the accuser's story does NOT always prove to be true.)

 

If there's enough to go on, the school acts - sometimes even involving legal authorities.  But otherwise, if there just isn't evidence - real evidence - the school CAN'T do anything. WE'D get in trouble legally - and we might indeed be wrong if we believe a story that just isn't true.

 

Reports get written and kept.  If more and more reports come in, sometimes (often?) that's enough to proceed with.  If kids stop reporting... well, sorry, but the school can't do a darn thing and it's NOT the school's fault.  We legally NEED factual information and evidence to act!  That's the way our "innocent until proven guilty system works."  It's not a case of "trial by one person's say so."

 

We teachers who witness things (or hear things) also usually pass the info on.  Truthfully, I handle all small incidents in my class myself 'cause I know I get results and teaching behavior is the ultimate goal, but anything that appears to be more major gets passed on to guidance and/or admin and written down (as in, "I" write things down and turn it in so it's official).

 

I fully believe there are places out there that don't act as they should, but I also fully believe that many reporting on here don't really understand how the system works behind the scenes.

 

No place is perfect because we humans aren't perfect, but many places try their darndest to do the best for kids.  Many teachers do too.  We're still learning as we go along as well - trying new things like in school suspension, and even modifying it to try to be better.

 

To any parent or kid involved, report it with specific details.  Then report again and again.  Honestly, this is the only way the school can act.  Telling friends, neighbors, or facebook does absolutely nothing.

 

And if you're in an area where reporting seems to be getting nowhere, ask what the results of the investigation were or what's going on.  If you aren't happy with the response, go higher.  If you're still unsatisfied, as with any other situation - go elsewhere!  (Homeschooling, different school, see if a lawyer can help - something.)  A kid's life could be at stake.

 

When I first started teaching at my school (17 years ago this school year) there were a few suicides (over years, not all at once).  Once it was a medical issue (junior didn't want to live with diabetes) and once it was a relationship break-up issue.  I'm not totally sure about the others.  We haven't had one in a while now, so I'm hopeful our policies are making a difference - policies for ending bullying and counseling for anyone looking like they could benefit from it.

[Guest]

.

 

How is the school supposed to know who is telling the truth? Are those of us who work in schools supposed to have magical powers?

 

 

Providing adequate supervision and placement is usually the issue. Some students cannot handle the regular classroom or the regular school day. Placing them in that situation, letting them explode, and then cleaning up seems to be typical. And then there are the parents in denial, who refuse to get their children help. Whats been done here is to put a mental health clinic adjacent to the high school campus...voila, counseling for those 'hurt people who hurt others' is now available. Also, there is alternative school, night high school, and homebound. Additionally, students that have a history of following a violent student and doing harm to the targets are separated from their leader and their victims. Much cheaper to hire additional supervision then it is to settle lawsuits.

[shawthorne44]

Well, I don't think loads of kids were committing suicide in my youth. Certainly not in my city.  I never knew anyone at all or even heard of such a thing until I was in my late teens (and then the first one was an adult).   If a bunch of kids were picking on one (and that happened to me one time on the way home from school when some girl slugged me) then you went home and told your older brother and he scared the crap out of them and they didn't do it again.    There was at least a common understanding of what a bully is. 

 

I do agree with you that we do a lot of things wrong in society and kids are way over-scheduled today and that TV is loaded with violence. 

 

 

Many kids did (class of '88).  They had so many at the rival high school that mine chanted at football games, "Kill them before they kill themselves".   DH had the same experience except different high school in a different city.   One kid even shot himself in class.     

 

I think the difference is that now people will say it was because of bullying and before the reason would have been glossed over.  

[creekland]

Placing them in that situation, letting them explode, and then cleaning up seems to be typical. 

 

So you believe in guilty without actual proof?  Should we put every "potential" criminal in prison before they commit a crime too?  Who decides who is potentially a criminal?

 

We have to go with "innocent until proven guilty" just like the courts do.  Kids can change (mature) from one year to the next.  Many times they also get along well with one teacher better than another (so many times a teacher change is also tried if possible). Pulling parents or caretakers in for a meeting of the minds also happens (though it's rare that parents can/will help by the high school age - it's still legally a must). Their record follows them, so teachers have insight into potential problems, but until they are a problem, we can't do much and we have to follow protocol set up by lawyers (and the law).  We'd be legally liable if we did anything otherwise.

 

And for pulling them out of classrooms and getting counseling, etc, (for both bullies and those bullied), it is done when it can be, but we need records of actual incidents, and pending what those incidents are, it can take a bit of trying all those other things first.

 

At our school, teachers aren't dumb.  We look at lists and see who's in classes and will try with guidance to fix schedules ahead of time if we see known (potential) problems.  We'll also seat kids away from each other and similar things.  Teachers don't exactly like problems in their classes either.  But legally, there is only so much that can be done whether we like it or not.  The public school MUST serve ALL the public.  (Getting a kid expelled from a school is very difficult, and even then, they have to go somewhere else.)

 

This young lad was in a private school.  They can sometimes play by different rules, so I'm not sure what their legal obligations are/were.  I know quite a bit about our school's requirements from having worked there for years.  But if the parents knew the boy was having such deep problems at that school, WHY did they continue to make him go there (and pay for it)?  It's not victim blaming.  It's an honest question.

[Lady Florida.]

In theory you are correct.  However, many parents suffer from "not my special snowflake" syndrome.  

 

:grouphug: I'm sorry for what your son went through. I know several people IRL who started homeschooling because of bullying.

 

Unfortunately when I was teaching, I met more than one set of "my sweet Johnny/Susie would never do that" parents. This was in the 80s and 90s, but I also remember bullying in school in the 60s and early 70s. My brother and I were bullied because we were poor and often wore second hand clothes.

 

It is sadly, part of human nature and other than constantly educating kids against it, I don't know what the solution is. There are adult bullies too. 

[LucyStoner]

In our son's situation the school knew what was going on, knew it was happening and just flatly excused it, dismissed it or blamed it on my son being "too sensitive." The first kid they tried to suspend was...my son for being reported for grabbing the ringleader's shirt (which no adult saw but did in fact happen...after a year of him being a constant target). The school district's legal department had to step in because what they were doing was opening the school district up to considerable risk and legal liability. As such my son's suspension was rescinded in hours before it even started but we were not inclined to send him back to that situation anyways. It is not the case that all schools are doing all they can or that they can't do more because of the legal system. Sorry, that argument doesn't fly. The principal was removed from the school quietly that summer...we weren't the only ones having trouble with the administration protecting the bullies from consequences. In this instance most of the bullies came from the families with the active PTA moms and most of the bullied kids had some sort of special needs. Our experience is far from an isolated case.

Edited August 15, 2016 by LucyStoner

[Guest]

So you believe in guilty without actual proof? Should we put every "potential" criminal in prison before they commit a crime too? Who decides who is potentially a criminal?

 

You might read some case law, especially re: anti- semitism and gender verbal abuse. You will find the school has a duty to provide adequate supervision, so that it doesnt have a 'he said, she said' situation going on which escalates into a mental or physical health issue where there are criminal and civil con sequences. So, for ex, while males may tell females they are attractive bitches and graphically describe the sex acts they want to perform on their bodies, the gals must be adequately supervised and the school must find a way to assure they are not verbally abused. The law is not suspended because one is on public school grounds.

[Tanaqui]

To those looking to blame the parents, sometimes parents just don't know how bad it is. My mother knew I was being bullied in middle school, that had been an ongoing problem since kindergarten. But she had no idea how bad it was until years later, because I simply didn't tell her. She didn't even know how much school I was skipping, because she left before I did most days and she only looked at the part of the report card that had my grades, which were meh the first and third quarters and stellar after midterms and finals - pretty much what you expect from a kid who doesn't do homework but still aces all her tests. The teachers weren't eager to inform her either. Well, maybe they didn't realize themselves. At any rate, we didn't send the girls to that school.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

You might read some case law, especially re: anti- semitism and gender verbal abuse. You will find the school has a duty to provide adequate supervision, so that it doesnt have a 'he said, she said' situation going on which escalates into a mental or physical health issue where there are criminal and civil con sequences. So, for ex, while males may tell females they are attractive bitches and graphically describe the sex acts they want to perform on their bodies, the gals must be adequately supervised and the school must find a way to assure they are not verbally abused. The law is not suspended because one is on public school grounds.

 

Case law doesn't set an explicit standard for "adequate supervision", and neither does statutory law for that matter.  A school has a legal obligation to provide adequate supervision but what constitutes that supervision is a very, very grey area.

 

[creekland]

In our son's situation the school knew what was going on, knew it was happening and just flatly excused it, dismissed it or blamed it on my son being "too sensitive." The first kid they tried to suspend was...my son for being reported for grabbing the ringleader's shirt (which no adult saw but did in fact happen...after a year of him being a constant target). The school district's legal department had to step in because what they were doing was opening the school district up to considerable risk and legal liability. As such my son's suspension was rescinded in hours before it even started but we were not inclined to send him back to that situation anyways. It is not the case that all schools are doing all they can or that they can't do more because of the legal system. Sorry, that argument doesn't fly. The principal was removed from the school quietly that summer...we weren't the only ones having trouble with the administration protecting the bullies from consequences. In this instance most of the bullies came from the families with the active PTA moms and most of the bullied kids had some sort of special needs. Our experience is far from an isolated case.

 

FWIW, I never said all schools were like mine or that all individuals do all they can.  My school is very much an "average" public high school.  By definition, half will be below average.  I also mentioned what parents/kids should do and advocated pressing on further when they need to rather than retreating.

 

It sounds like this is exactly what you did - and some good, indeed, came out of it.  Kudos to you!

 

You might read some case law, especially re: anti- semitism and gender verbal abuse. You will find the school has a duty to provide adequate supervision, so that it doesnt have a 'he said, she said' situation going on which escalates into a mental or physical health issue where there are criminal and civil con sequences. So, for ex, while males may tell females they are attractive bitches and graphically describe the sex acts they want to perform on their bodies, the gals must be adequately supervised and the school must find a way to assure they are not verbally abused. The law is not suspended because one is on public school grounds.

 

Adequate supervision generally means there's a certified & background checked adult in the classroom.

 

To get more than that, we need a written record showing need.  Even then, what will happen first is a discussion with all involved to see if the behavior can be stopped.  A second reported offense increases what is done.

 

At our school there are some kids who have a full time aid who does nothing but accompany them to classes to see to it that all is well.  There are different reasons for this, but when needed, it happens.

 

Case law doesn't set an explicit standard for "adequate supervision", and neither does statutory law for that matter.  A school has a legal obligation to provide adequate supervision but what constitutes that supervision is a very, very grey area.

 

 

:iagree:   There are some things I would change if I could (this discussion sometimes comes up at our lunch table too), but we have around 1300 students at our school (grades 9-12) and a limited budget.  Nonetheless, we brainstorm and present ideas to our admin when something seems feasible.  Sometimes those ideas are for one student.  Other times it's the system.

 

I know "I" get very good results from our admin even though some other teachers don't.  I think that's because I rarely have issues with students, so when I do, they know that kid is a problem and they'll do what they can to back me up.  I rarely have issues with the same student twice - unless drugs are involved.

 

Unfortunately, there are some teachers who have poor classroom control.  All teachers (at my school) are required to observe others a few times per year.  The purpose of this is so ideas can be shared - both management and academic.  Even so, no human or system is perfect so if students are getting bullied, they need to speak up and keep speaking up until they get results.  If it doesn't happen at school, parents can get involved and/or the legal system.  (Of course, homeschooling is an option too - one I'm personally fond of for academics as well as "missing" the crud that can come with ps for some students.)

[Carol in Cal.]

I distinctly remember the 'last straw' moment for my consideration of our local elementary school for our dd.  There were lots of things that bothered me about it, but the one that cemented my decision never to send her there was when a local NPR show on bullying had a caller who sounded really nice, super rational, very calm, who said that her first grade son had been bullied repeatedly, that there were witnesses, that the bullies had been scolded or whatever, and that when she asked the school what they would do to protect her son from a recurrence or retaliation, their answer was, "Well, obviously we can't be on the playground with them."  It was a free for all, with grades 1 through 5 out on the playground together with little or no adult supervision.  And I was all like, Nuh uh.  BS.
 

[creekland]

To those looking to blame the parents, sometimes parents just don't know how bad it is.

 

:iagree:   The quiet kids can be hidden and many kids have been conditioned not to "tattle" so that can be an issue too - esp when we need proof.  Many of us do what we can to watch out for them, but again, no human is perfect.

 

Just with what little info we had in this article, it seemed the parents were involved in this case.

 

To those reporting events from years ago... bullying has become FAR more of a "try to fix" issue at our school just within the 16/17 years I've worked there.  Conditions are improving IMO.  Hopefully they are elsewhere too.

 

One thing that would help a ton is not requiring ALL kids to attend school until 17/18 years of age.  Many of those doing the bullying or acting up in class simply don't want to be there.  There are jobs they'd rather be doing (construction, hair dresser, farming, etc).  Algebra doesn't interest them, nor will they ever need it.  LET them do those jobs and the others who want more education will have a far better experience.

 

The European model acknowledges this by allowing kids to "graduate" earlier.  I fail to understand why we can't do similarly.

 

This won't help the younger set, but it would be a start for the high school years.

[umsami]

Not new.

 

I would have killed myself during middle and high school if I had the courage.

 

I was bullied mercilessly regarding my weight.

 

I remember a kid in Georgia doing this as well maybe 10 years ago?

 

It sucks to be the fat kid.  It's probably 1000x worse now with the Internet.. All the wonderful body-positive stuff is great for adults, but I don't think it's trickled down much to kids. 

 

ETA: Regarding parents and parental blame, you may tell your Mom and Dad once....but you also may be so ashamed about it, that you don't mention it.  Some parents really don't get it, especially if they were never bullied.  Some teachers care, some teachers are ineffective, and some teachers participate (often gym teachers in my experience).

Edited August 15, 2016 by umsami

[maize]

:iagree:   The quiet kids can be hidden and many kids have been conditioned not to "tattle" so that can be an issue too - esp when we need proof.  Many of us do what we can to watch out for them, but again, no human is perfect.

 

Just with what little info we had in this article, it seemed the parents were involved in this case.

 

To those reporting events from years ago... bullying has become FAR more of a "try to fix" issue at our school just within the 16/17 years I've worked there.  Conditions are improving IMO.  Hopefully they are elsewhere too.

 

One thing that would help a ton is not requiring ALL kids to attend school until 17/18 years of age.  Many of those doing the bullying or acting up in class simply don't want to be there.  There are jobs they'd rather be doing (construction, hair dresser, farming, etc).  Algebra doesn't interest them, nor will they ever need it.  LET them do those jobs and the others who want more education will have a far better experience.

 

The European model acknowledges this by allowing kids to "graduate" earlier.  I fail to understand why we can't do similarly.

 

This won't help the younger set, but it would be a start for the high school years.

 

Much of the worst bullying occurs in middle school/junior high years. And it is quite as much a problem in Europe as in the US.

 

Adults teach kids not to tattle because they don't want to deal with kid issues, and it does cause problems. The studies I have read of that look at tattling show that upwards of 95% of the time the person reporting to an adult is telling the truth--and yet they will face both adult and peer disdain for doing so, and will have their honesty questioned to boot.

 

I'm personally convinced that the majority of bullying is never noticed, acknowledged, or addressed by adults--and it is always the victims who suffer most.

 

It makes me sick, because while I can homeschool my own kids and provide them some protection, I know that there are children at every single school in this country suffering.

 

Major, major trigger issue for me. I'm feeling nauseous just thinking about it.

[Caroline]

There was a kid in Georgia who killed himself at school in 1994. My sister-in-law was there. So, yes, it isn't a new thing.

 

 

 

Not new.

 

I would have killed myself during middle and high school if I had the courage.

 

I was bullied mercilessly regarding my weight.

 

I remember a kid in Georgia doing this as well maybe 10 years ago?

 

It sucks to be the fat kid. It's probably 1000x worse now with the Internet.. All the wonderful body-positive stuff is great for adults, but I don't think it's trickled down much to kids.

 

ETA: Regarding parents and parental blame, you may tell your Mom and Dad once....but you also may be so ashamed about it, that you don't mention it. Some parents really don't get it, especially if they were never bullied. Some teachers care, some teachers are ineffective, and some teachers participate (often gym teachers in my experience).

[LucyStoner]

IME, schools that are even trying to address bullying effectively are not the norm or the average. They are the exception and not the rule. I've just attended too many schools and spoken with too many students from too many different schools to give most schools a lot of credit on this issue. Some schools do better. That's just not the norm though.

 

Talking to current students and hearing about what goes on now doesn't give me the impression that things are much better than when I was in schools with bullying problems. It all sounds pretty much the same, but with mass picture texting capabilities. It's not just or even mostly bored kids who don't want to be there or who aren't college bound IME either. All kinds of kids bully all kinds of kids.

 

In 10ish years of K-12 school (I stayed home for much of middle school) I went to exactly one school that had limited to no problems with bullies. It was a small public school with a low student to teacher ratio and a bunch of kids who for the most part just didn't let anyone's bs go unchecked. And teachers who for the most part were able to nip issues in the bud because they didn't have a ton of students or back to back classes all day.

 

I don't think that the schools or most teachers are to blame for bullying - I think it's a big part of our culture and the norm is a lot of students and not that many teachers. The people in the school, system mostly have the best of intentions. But I also haven't seen many schools effectively deal with it either. It's not an isolated occurrence for teachers to condone or minimize bullying they do see going on. I've even known teachers who were bullying students themselves. I don't know that schools really can address the issue, even with the best intentions, in under-resourced large school environments in a culture that largely sees bullying as just part of growing up.

 

It is not a simple issue with simple solutions. Ultimately for some families it forces them to go outside the school system. I can help my sons avoid it. I can't really change the system for everyone though.

Edited August 15, 2016 by LucyStoner

[Garga]

I never, ever, ever told my parents about how awful school was for me.  I still haven't told them.  I don't know if they could sense it or not.  I was ashamed.  And what could anyone do?  For me it wasn't physical assault, just some taunts done where the adults couldn't hear and the persistent shunning.  I doubt many teachers even realized what was going on.  "Oh, Garga?  She's just a quiet kid who likes reading her books by herself."   Now for physical bullying, it might be more obvious what is going on and telling might make a difference.

 

I can see where kids wouldn't tell their parents, though, about any of it..  I'm always surprised when kids do tell and happy that those kids feel comfortable going to their parents.

Edited August 15, 2016 by Garga

[MistyMountain]

I was bullied in middle school and high school but I did not call it that at the time. A group of kids would say cruel things to me about being too skinny or not being girly or going to parties. I was called anorexic if a disgusting twig or be made fun of anytime I played volleyball at gym because I am not very coordinated. I was told I was too quiet and a "goody two shoes" High school was hell for me. I hated going and felt like I had no one to relate to at all by the last two years. No one really talked to me except the kids who were saying mean things. I ended up friending my much older sister's friends instead.

 

Bullying was always around but social media does make it pretty bad. A kid can get bullied by tons of people in a dog pile manner they hardly see and it can be hard to escape when you are not in school. Kids can take videos of you and make fun of that. Kids can make a videos of sex then use it for revenge later.

 

The school my kids go to is good about nipping things in the bud early and talking to kids all the time about having a good character. Other school I interviewed said they do not do anything until it becomes bullying. By then the problem is much harder to tackle. I heard one school is really working on talking to the kids about their feelings and why they are acting up and it has been having good results.

 

I try to talk to my kids about how things they say may be interpreted. They sometimes do say things that are not nice and we talk about it afterwards. I also tell them how to handle it if kids are making fun of them or others. One thing I say is to assertively say that is not nice so an adult can hear them or to say stop loudly. If things come up in books dealing with kids not being nice we also talk about how to handle things like that and if the characters in the book handled it well or not. I do not expect kids to be perfect angels but the adults in their life need to address things as they happen and teach them better ways to handle things that come up.

 

Bullying leaves scars that they say can be worse then abuse by a parent. I know it left me with scars that affected my decision making and left me with low self esteem. It is very sad to hear of kids committing suicide because of bullying. It makes my blood boil when people make comments about the kids being weaker and blaming the victim.

Edited August 15, 2016 by MistyMountain

[ktgrok]

Yeah, my teachers called and tattled on me for reading during lunch time instead of socializing. Well, considering recently someone at my lunch table had said ,"Everyone who likes Katie, raise your hand" and only one person did, I don't think I was missing out on much by reading. 

 

Ugh. 

[creekland]

IME, schools that are even trying to address bullying effectively are not the norm or the average. They are the exception and not the rule. I've just attended too many schools and spoken with too many students from too many different schools to give most schools a lot of credit on this issue. Some schools do better. That's just not the norm though.

 

Talking to current students and hearing about what goes on now doesn't give me the impression that things are much better than when I was in schools with bullying problems. It all sounds pretty much the same, but with mass picture texting capabilities. It's not just or even mostly bored kids who don't want to be there or who aren't college bound IME either. All kinds of kids bully all kinds of kids.

 

In 10ish years of K-12 school (I stayed home for much of middle school) I went to exactly one school that had limited to no problems with bullies. It was a small public school with a low student to teacher ratio and a bunch of kids who for the most part just didn't let anyone's bs go unchecked. And teachers who for the most part were able to nip issues in the bud because they didn't have a ton of students or back to back classes all day.

 

I don't think that the schools or most teachers are to blame for bullying - I think it's a big part of our culture and the norm is a lot of students and not that many teachers. The people in the school, system mostly have the best of intentions. But I also haven't seen many schools effectively deal with it either. It's not an isolated occurrence for teachers to condone or minimize bullying they do see going on. I've even known teachers who were bullying students themselves. I don't know that schools really can address the issue, even with the best intentions, in under-resourced large school environments in a culture that largely sees bullying as just part of growing up.

 

It is not a simple issue with simple solutions. Ultimately for some families it forces them to go outside the school system. I can help my sons avoid it. I can't really change the system for everyone though.

 

There's nothing I disagree with in your post except I have no idea what percentage of schools are actively trying to do anything about it.

 

Bullying will never be eliminated.  It's too much a part of human nature and kids are just growing up + testing out their limits.  Heck, even politics shows that adult bullies are still out there with way too many who support them (NOT meaning just US politics - there are several examples).

 

But still... those who expect a school to be able to end it all aren't thinking logically.  Our school does what it can, but it's continually dealing with it.  It's not "fixed."  My posts were directed to those who blamed the schools for "not doing enough."  It's NOT always that easy.  Even when they try, parents can't assume the school can stop a problem (though should still advocate for them to try if they know of situations).

 

I feel for anyone who falls through the cracks and doesn't find friends to support them.

[Samm]

 

This young lad was in a private school.  They can sometimes play by different rules, so I'm not sure what their legal obligations are/were.  I know quite a bit about our school's requirements from having worked there for years.  But if the parents knew the boy was having such deep problems at that school, WHY did they continue to make him go there (and pay for it)?  It's not victim blaming.  It's an honest question.

 

"I don't know why I missed this, why didn't I save my son," Maureen Fitzpatrick, Danny's mother, told WPIX through tears.

 

Carolyn Erstad, a spokesperson for the Brooklyn diocese, said that under state guidelines, a school guidance counselor was allowed to meet with Danny three times before requiring consent from his parents for more meetings.

 

A counselor did meet with Danny three times. At that point, school officials reached out to his parents, who declined to give consent for further meetings, according to Erstad.

 

Enforcing the maximum legal amount of 3 formal counseling sessions with a child as young as Danny Fitzpatrick without parental knowledge of it beforehand who ends up dying by suicide is a very bad track record.  Who knows what sort of inane counsel was doled out to this young boy in the first 3 sessions, how long the school dragged out the series, and if counsel was mainly coping mechanisms?  Whatever they did, it worked out poorly.

Edited August 15, 2016 by Samm