Sad about a car seat situation...

[G5052]

Last school year I periodically transported a friend of mine and her 4 y.o. to meetings at our church. Our state requires carseats/booster seats to age 8. I actually made my youngest keep her Britax until this summer well after her birthday, because then I could just put the 4 y.o. in it without having to transfer seats, etc. It was the extra-large type of carset and was easy to adjust for a younger child. Then we ditched it at the dump because it was near it's expiration. I didn't have a need to pick up my friend any more at that point.

 

Well, starting later this month, I'm going to be picking up my friend again, so I bought a basic booster seat for her daughter and kept the receipt. Today I asked my friend her daughter's weight to be sure that I had the right kind of seat, and she told me that her husband had removed all the carseats and boosters (their children are 9, 6, and 4) because he considers the carseat/booster law to be silly. I was floored! Anyway, after I overcame my shock, I told her that in my vehicle we use a booster for the 4 y.o. (she's big enough), and to have her husband talk to me if there's a problem.

 

This is just seems so cavalier to me. I agree that it's a pain using them, but I've always considered it a must for safety issues. I'm just shaking my head over this.

[Jen500]

Well, you can only control what happens in your car, under your watch. I get a bit stressed when I see little kids riding in the front seat w/o any seatbelt even, or even sitting on the lap of the adult driving. I'd feel even worse if I was in an accident w/them and their child was hurt. But, everyone has to be responsible for their own kids.

[hornblower]

This is a tough one as it can really make people upset on both sides. I was one of those people who used booster for a long time before they became mandatory here (btw, now kids have to be in booster with shoulder belt until they're 9 yo or 4'9" whichever comes first).

 

In my car, I make the rules & everyone needs to be properly secured. And I don't let my kids ride in anyone else's car.

 

I hope you find a way to solve this without jeopardizing your friendship.

[bettyandbob]

I think the only thing you need to say is if you are going to give the child a ride then she will be in the booster you purchased. You are not going to break the law, no matter what opinion has of the law. If the child balks are the carseat, then you won't be able to help. I would make this last point clear.

 

That's all you have to do. You've gone above and beyond because you purchased a booster for you car. I would have asked them to provide a booster for my car and said the child couldn't ride without one.

 

I'm the sorry the dad is (insert adjective). You can't do anything about it. For that reason you can't say anything.

 

My ds is 7, we have until next summer. Until then I give a booster to anyone who gives him a ride.

[Spy Car]

In the interest of child safety it must be noted that the typical "booster-seats" (that rely on nothing more than a seat-belt to hold in the child and the seat) are totally inadequate. Better than not using anything, but not nearly good enough to protect child passengers.

 

I was shocked when I started looking for a "booster-seat" (thinking that is what we "needed" for our next-stage car seat.) A little research soon left me convinced "boosters" should be outlawed in favor of seats with 5 point harnesses and latching mechanisms similar to an infant car seat.

 

In an accident a "booster" and child can go flying. They are very dangerous.

 

We purchased a Radian 80 for our 4 year-old and could not be more pleased with it. The Britax Regent (while too bloated for our taste) is another safe seat for "booster-aged" children.

 

Bill

[Tracey in TX]

You can only control what happens in your vehicle. Respect the choices another parent makes for his family. We ditched car seats when our youngest was 4y/o as well. Fortunately we don't have a law requiring anything beyond that. It really should be the parent's decision at some point. Make recommendations and let people decide for themselves what is right. (Not a fan of arbitrary legislation for everyday details.)

[joannqn]

Everyone in my car must be properly restrained. My 8 year old is still using a booster because the seat belt doesn't properly fit her without it. As far as guests...I'll provide a seat if I have one, simply because installing it beforehand is easier for me. If I don't have a seat available, I'd expect them to provide theirs. If a child is not properly restrained, I'd be liable...for the ticket or worse if an accident happened.

 

My son's taekwondo class has a family that doesn't restrain any of their kids in car seats. Their small-for-his-age four year old even sits in the front seat. It drives me nuts! I've managed to keep my mouth shut so far.

 

I just looked up our state's law.

 

Washington's New Child Restraint Law

 

Effective June 1, 2007, children less than eight years old must be restrained in child restraint systems, unless the child is four feet nine inches or taller. A child who is eight years old or older, or four feet nine inches or taller, must be properly restrained either with the motor vehicle's safety belt or an appropriately fitting child restraint system. Children under thirteen years old must be transported in rear seats where it is practical to do so.

 

I was aware of the 8 years old or 4'9" requirements but I didn't know they went so far as to state where the 8-12 year olds were suppose to sit.

[Storm Bay]

In the interest of child safety it must be noted that the typical "booster-seats" (that rely on nothing more than a seat-belt to hold in the child and the seat) are totally inadequate. Better than not using anything, but not nearly good enough to protect child passengers.

 

I was shocked when I started looking for a "booster-seat" (thinking that is what we "needed" for our next-stage car seat.) A little research soon left me convinced "boosters" should be outlawed in favor of seats with 5 point harnesses and latching mechanisms similar to an infant car seat.

 

In an accident a "booster" and child can go flying. They are very dangerous.

 

We purchased a Radian 80 for our 4 year-old and could not be more pleased with it. The Britax Regent (while too bloated for our taste) is another safe seat for "booster-aged" children.

 

Bill

 

 

But the government here isn't concerned about real safetly, IMO. Before we moved to boosters, I was one of the only mothers I knew who used the 5 point harness baby seats (this is going back 13 years for the first) and probably one of the only ones I have ever heard of who bought a convertable seat when my dd was 4 months old because her lets were too long--most people didn't even read the directions well enough to read about the leg issue. And how many parents let the belts be way too loose? But then, as an*l as I am, once I forgot to do up my dd's car seat belts, and then again once when I had my second. I nearly drowned to death in guilt.

 

(Now, let's bring on the violins.) When I was a kid, we were the only family I knew that even used seatbelts. Why? Because c. 1957 my dad, an intern and still single (I'm not that old, although dh is), was in the ER when 2 men came in after an auto accident. The police officer pointed to the dead one and said, "No seatbelt" and to the live one and said, "Seatbelt." So my dad when back to the auto dealer where he'd just ordered a car (that's what you did back then, I guess) and ordered seatbelts because they weren't standard features yet. By today's standards, those seatbelts would be considered woefully dangerous.

 

Even today, adults need better seatbelts than the shoulder belts we're using--ones more like race car drivers. However, they need more work, because even those can result in a fractured neck if there isn't any stretch. I am a seatbelt fanatic and don't even feel "dressed" in a car without one on.

 

Truth be told, sometimes no matter how well strapped in you are and no matter how many airbags, nothing will save you. All of this is merey to reduce the risks.

Edited October 5, 2008 by Karin

[Peek a Boo]

another echo for "seatbelts/carseats always."

 

As for your friend, it would be appropriate to let them know that if they come into contact w/ an officer, they would get several hefty tickets [per child] and possibly even an "endangering the life of a child" charge.

 

I too won't let my kids ride w/ anyone that isn't an*l about seatbelts. It's amazing how many people think it's ok to double buckle, or that you don't have to buckle in kids if you don't have enough belts [4 kids in the backseat].

 

I used to transport a kid that kept putting the shoulder restraint behind his back. After getting on him for the umpteenth time, we drove through a safety check --him seeing the cop LOOKING IN and asking about how everyone was restrained was GREAT, lol.

 

and yeah --I would have made the parents pay for the seat.

[melissel]

You can only control what happens in your vehicle. Respect the choices another parent makes for his family. We ditched car seats when our youngest was 4y/o as well. Fortunately we don't have a law requiring anything beyond that. It really should be the parent's decision at some point. Make recommendations and let people decide for themselves what is right. (Not a fan of arbitrary legislation for everyday details.)

 

How did you restrain your four-year-old in your car? With the regular adult-sized belts?

[Spy Car]

But the government here isn't concerned about real safetly, IMO. Before we moved to boosters, I was one of the only mothers I knew who used the 5 point harness baby seats (this is going back 13 years for the first) and probably one of the only ones I have ever heard of who bought a convertable seat when my dd was 4 months old because her lets were too long--most people didn't even read the directions well enough to read about the leg issue. And how many parents let the belts be way too loose? But then, as an*l as I am, once I forgot to do up my dd's car seat belts, and then again once when I had my second. I nearly drowned to death in guilt.

 

Now, lets bring on the violins. When I was a kid, we were the only family I knew that even used seatbelts. Why? Because c. 1957 my dad, an intern and still single (I'm not that old, although dh is), was in the ER when 2 men came in after an auto accident. The police officer pointed to the dead one and said, "No seatbelt" and to the live one and said, "Seatbelt." So my dad when back to the auto dealer where he'd just ordered a car (that's what you did back then, I guess) and ordered seatbelts because they weren't standard features yet. By today's standards, those seatbelts would be considered woefully dangerous.

 

Even today, adults need better seatbelts than the shoulder belts we're using--ones more like race car drivers. However, they need more work, because even those can result in a fractured neck if there isn't any stretch. I am a seatbelt fanatic and don't even feel "dressed" in a car without one on.

 

Truth be told, sometimes no matter how well strapped in you are and no matter how many airbags, nothing will save you. All of this is merey to reduce the risks.

 

Karin, I do think the government is failing on booster-seat safety standards. But like your father, who realized seat-belts could save lives, we need to look at booster-seats and ask if they are safe enough. And if not, order something "better".

 

I can't tell you how close I was to running out and buying a booster, because I honestly (but naively) believed they were safe. But they are not safe. And there are better, and much safer alternatives out there.

 

If the government fails in its safety standards (as they have in this instance), we as parents can still do better for our children. The first step is becoming aware just how inadequate booster-seats really are.

 

Bill

[G5052]

I worked as EMT through part of my college years, so that's coloring my view here, I know. I know what happens to kids in bad car accidents. That's why mine used a 5-point Brittax Husky (now called something else) until they had truly outgrown it. Unfortunately I took my last 5-point to the dump this summer after it expired and when I noticed that part of it had cracked.

 

In this case I think part of the problem is cultural. They come from a third-world country where car seats aren't used at all, and they don't see the point. I know these folks very well, and frankly asking them to pay for a booster for my vehicle would have offended the husband. I also didn't know until today that they had gotten rid of theirs because she has asked me questions about using them over the years.

 

Anyway, I have a booster for my vehicle, which is all I could afford right now, and which at least provides some protection for the 4 y.o. and keeps us legal. We'll see if the husband objects to it.:glare:

[Sara R]

In the interest of child safety it must be noted that the typical "booster-seats" (that rely on nothing more than a seat-belt to hold in the child and the seat) are totally inadequate. Better than not using anything, but not nearly good enough to protect child passengers.

 

 

Do you have a source for this? Back in 2000 when I was researching this, modern booster seats (not to be confused with the old booster seats from the early 1980s) were considered to be safe, as long as the child was mature enough to keep the seatbelt on and as long as the seatbelt went over the shoulder and the hip bones. Some people sought out 5-point harnesses for kids over 4, but they were mostly parents of disabled kids or escape artists.

[gardening momma]

I use a very basic booster seat for my dd4. I also bought a seat belt adjuster to keep the shoulder strap down across her chest and not across her neck. And each time dh or I buckle her in we pull out any slack in the belt.

 

I have had an occasion or two when I've forgotten to buckle her in, but she reminds me right away...bordering on hysterical panic! Well, not quite, but she knows she's supposed to be buckled in and lets me know when I forget!

[Storm Bay]

Karin, I do think the government is failing on booster-seat safety standards. But like your father, who realized seat-belts could save lives, we need to look at booster-seats and ask if they are safe enough. And if not, order something "better".

 

I can't tell you how close I was to running out and buying a booster, because I honestly (but naively) believed they were safe. But they are not safe. And there are better, and much safer alternatives out there.

 

If the government fails in its safety standards (as they have in this instance), we as parents can still do better for our children. The first step is becoming aware just how inadequate booster-seats really are.

 

Bill

 

 

I agree that safer is better. But I hadn't heard anything terrible about boosters until today, because we started boosters when a lot of this was still fairly new and my understanding was that they were to prevent the shoulder strap from breaking a child's windpipe/neck. I'm surprised my sister didn't tell me this, the one who won't even let her dc sit in the front seat in a parking lot due to air bags (she's seen what happens to children sitting in the front seat with an airbag and says even a gentle rear end sets them off--this is the same sister who let her kids jump off her shed when they were about 7) .

 

Two of mine are now too large for the seats due to height, and the other one is nearly there. I think weight is also a factor. I also don't think I'll ever get my 13 yo back in any type of seat and she's already taller than many women, but I know that even the seatbelts we use as adults don't protect well enough--people get seatbelt bruises (any type of restraint will do that), and get knocked side to side in a side on collision, etc.

 

I think even more important than even safer seats is safer driving, including by parents. More defensive, less offensive. I can't even count how many accidents we've avoided because I watch before I go even when the light turns green, etc. I'm a RAD--reformed aggressive driver. People often have a lot of stupid habits. Plus, better laws against drunk drivers, etc.

[HollyDay]

Ive actually encountered this carseat thing before too. I WILL NOT have ANYONE in my operating vehicle without proper safety in use. That includes my MIL. I have honestly sat in the driveway with the car running but not moving until MIL agrees to buckle the her seatbelt. I have also encountered folks wanting to carpool who feel it is okay to put an 8 year old up front with an armed airbag, or dont feel it is necessary to have a toddler in a booster seat. Sorry folks - what you do in your car is on your conscience, but, in my vehicle, we do follow the law and the safety guidelines - or we dont go.

[Storm Bay]

Ive actually encountered this carseat thing before too. I WILL NOT have ANYONE in my operating vehicle without proper safety in use. That includes my MIL. I have honestly sat in the driveway or we dont go.

 

So glad I'm not the only one who won't move until everyone's buckled in correctly!

[Mom2boys]

(Now, let's bring on the violins.) When I was a kid, we were the only family I knew that even used seat belts. Why? Because c. 1957 my dad, an intern and still single (I'm not that old, although dh is), was in the ER when 2 men came in after an auto accident. The police officer pointed to the dead one and said, "No seat belt" and to the live one and said, "Seat belt." So my dad when back to the auto dealer where he'd just ordered a car (that's what you did back then, I guess) and ordered seat belts because they weren't standard features yet.

 

In 1957 my uncle and his three-year-old son were killed in a car accident because they were thrown from the vehicle. It didn't have seat belts. My aunt, and 1-year-old cousin were not thrown from the car, and only received minor injuries. In my family, seat belts, car seats, and booster seats are all non-negotiable. And, no kids ride in my front seat because of the airbags. I'm surprised how many parents I know who do let their kids ride in front.

[Word Nerd]

In the interest of child safety it must be noted that the typical "booster-seats" (that rely on nothing more than a seat-belt to hold in the child and the seat) are totally inadequate. Better than not using anything, but not nearly good enough to protect child passengers.

 

 

According to whom?

[Spy Car]

There is a lot of information out there from a wide variety of sources comparing 5 point restraint seats with boosters, which show the inadequacy of "boosters".

 

Here is one crash film. The 5 point is on the inside.

 

http://www.oeamtc.at/netautor/html_seiten/kisitest_2002/videos/test2002/frontcrash/maxicosirodi.mpg

[Peek a Boo]

In this case I think part of the problem is cultural. They come from a third-world country where car seats aren't used at all, and they don't see the point. I know these folks very well, and frankly asking them to pay for a booster for my vehicle would have offended the husband. I also didn't know until today that they had gotten rid of theirs because she has asked me questions about using them over the years.

 

Anyway, I have a booster for my vehicle, which is all I could afford right now, and which at least provides some protection for the 4 y.o. and keeps us legal. We'll see if the husband objects to it.:glare:

 

 

ooooh---- in that case, i wouldn't have asked them to pay, i just would have said: I'd love to transport your dd, but my car isn't equipped to carry her legally.

 

and stop there and look at them :D

 

 

good luck however it goes!

[ChristusG]

Car safetly is something I will not budge on. I'm adamant about it. My oldest is 4 years old. About a year ago we bought her the Britax Regent (the mother of all carseats LOL) when her sister moved into her Britax Marathon. It has a 5 point harness and goes up to like 85 pounds. She will ride in that thing until she reaches 85 pounds. If that takes until she's 10 years old, then so be it. I will not compromise my child's safety in the car for the sake of convenience. Drivers out there are crazy....or cars can malfunction....people are injured in car wrecks every single day in every single city.

 

My kids will be harnessed as long as possible. If this seat expires and they have still not reached the weight limit, we will purchase another.

[Annie Laurie]

The problem with booster seats is that the seatbelt can still fail and then the child has no other protection, they'll go flying. With a 5-point harness, you can use the latches and tethers. Also, a lot of kids move the shoulder belt behind their back when in a booster because it bothers them.

 

We have three 5-point carseats in our van, and my kids are 7, 6 and 4. They're small and thin as runs in our family and will be in them a long time longer. My 7 year old is in a Britax Regent, and my 6 and 4 year olds are in Marathons. Since he is homeschooled, it hasn't even occured to my 7 year old to think being in a carseat is babyish and protest, he thinks all kids ride in them like him.

[MicheleB]

(btw, now kids have to be in booster with shoulder belt until they're 9 yo or 4'9" whichever comes first).

 

 

My girls always kind of chuckled about the 4'9" rule. My 14yo is barely 4'10" and 13 yo is about the same heighth. So while they are well past 9, it is kind of silly to think height-wise they would still be in a car seat.

 

I think it is cavalier to ditch car seats when it's required by law. Whether I agree with the law or not, as I so often say, I'm not willing to go to jail over it (to prove a point, IOW) and I'm not willing to handle the guilt and pain over injuries caused because my kids weren't in car seats and should have been. And you read so much now about car seats saving young children's lives in accidents that it's a pretty dangerous chance to take not using them.

[Tree House Academy]

Well, if you are driving the car and the child is not properly restrained, you will be fined...so yes, dear hubby of your friend will have to just get over it when she is in your vehicle.

 

Personally, and this is just me, I am 100% behind boosters and such until the child is the correct height to properly fit in the seatbelt. It is just a safety measure. My oldest is 9 yrs, 2 mos. He is 4'7.5" and weighs almost 70 pounds. In MY car, he still has a booster! My car has bucket type seats in the back and the seatbelt comes across his neck. In my dh's vehicle, he can ride without a booster because the seats are made differently and the seatbelt hits him right. There is no shame or silliness in being safe. Better I do this and nothing happen than I toss it out the window and then we have a car wreck where he is hurt badly or worse!

 

As fr typical boosters not being safe, I dont' totally buy it. If the seatbelt fails in a crash, no one is safe...booster or not. If MY seatbelt fails, then I am not safe as the driver either. However, most of the time, a buckled safety belt does not fail. I do remember a horrible story of one woman who lost her 4 year old son who was buckled in properly in her van in a booster when the were hit and rolled. He was thrown from the car because his seatbelt failed. Her daughter, though, who was in the very next seat and fastened in the same way was not hurt and her seatbelt did not fail. This particular mom (can't remember her name) launched a campaign to encourage other parents to use the 5 point harness system at all times because of her experience.

 

My 5 year old might let me "harness" him in. My 9 year old would run screaming.

Edited October 6, 2008 by Tree House Academy

[JudyJudyJudy]

In the interest of child safety it must be noted that the typical "booster-seats" (that rely on nothing more than a seat-belt to hold in the child and the seat) are totally inadequate. Better than not using anything, but not nearly good enough to protect child passengers.

 

I was shocked when I started looking for a "booster-seat" (thinking that is what we "needed" for our next-stage car seat.) A little research soon left me convinced "boosters" should be outlawed in favor of seats with 5 point harnesses and latching mechanisms similar to an infant car seat.

 

In an accident a "booster" and child can go flying. They are very dangerous.

 

We purchased a Radian 80 for our 4 year-old and could not be more pleased with it. The Britax Regent (while too bloated for our taste) is another safe seat for "booster-aged" children.

 

Bill

I agree with keeping children in 5-point harnesses as long as possible.

 

 

You can only control what happens in your vehicle. Respect the choices another parent makes for his family. We ditched car seats when our youngest was 4y/o as well. Fortunately we don't have a law requiring anything beyond that. It really should be the parent's decision at some point. Make recommendations and let people decide for themselves what is right. (Not a fan of arbitrary legislation for everyday details.)

I totally disagree. 4 years old is NOT old enough to be out of a car seat. The reason for the laws is to protect children whose parents won't protect them otherwise.

[chaik76]

In 1957 my uncle and his three-year-old son were killed in a car accident because they were thrown from the vehicle. It didn't have seat belts. My aunt, and 1-year-old cousin were not thrown from the car, and only received minor injuries. In my family, seat belts, car seats, and booster seats are all non-negotiable. And, no kids ride in my front seat because of the airbags. I'm surprised how many parents I know who do let their kids ride in front.

I think this is one of those areas where every family has to decide how much safety is "enough". We read all the statistics, looked at videos, etc. and still decided on a simple booster (not a five-point harness) for ds. He is seven now and must be in a booster until age 8. Not yet sure whether we'll remove him at age 8 or not.

 

We currently don't let him ride in the front seat...specifically because of the airbags. However, we will be taking the airbags out, specifically because of this and because they are dangerous for smaller adults. Not everyone has the option of putting all their children in the backseat...sometimes the front seat is necessary.

 

Personally, our family tries to choose a medium path...we want to be safe, but our world right now is hyper-concerned with being "over-safe" when it is not necessary. So...we choose what works best for us.

[chaik76]

I agree with keeping children in 5-point harnesses as long as possible.

 

 

 

I totally disagree. 4 years old is NOT old enough to be out of a car seat. The reason for the laws is to protect children whose parents won't protect them otherwise.

There are still states where the law is four years old...here is something from USA Today in March:

 

"All 50 states and the District of Columbia require child safety seats, which secure children younger than 4 in cars, but 12 states have no law requiring booster seats, which are used by children who've outgrown child safety seats but are too small for lap-and-shoulder belts. Twenty-one states require booster seats for children up to age 6. Seventeen states and the District of Columbia require them until 8."

[SonshineLearner]

After I saw these videos, I stopped letting my 4 year old decide what to sit in. After all, I'm the parent. I had let him start sitting in a booster and just realized that when there's something safer, a booster makes no sense. He's 5 and he still has some years left in a carseat. Boosters are not a rite of passage, as some think. You're as safe as you can be, and then...well....I pray! Nothing makes you 100% secure, but as safe as you can be, why not?

 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=azgBhZfcqaQ

[Guest Gypsy]

Hi Everyone,

 

A friend emailed me this link, I do follow much of TWTM and I am also a Certified Child Passenger Safety Technician (CPST).

 

I didn't read every response in the thread, but I'll give a basic rundown for those interested along with some links.

 

First, it's strongly recommended to rear face to the limits of a convertible carseat (30-35 pounds and less than an inch from the top of the shell), rear facing is safer for everyone, even adults - in Sweden they have the lowest motor vehicle child death rates and they rear face until 4-6 years.

 

Second, it's also strongly recommended to use a 5 point harness for as long as possible. 4 years AND 40 pounds is the bare minimum for booster use. My own kids did or will stay harnessed until 6 years AND 50 pounds.

 

Third, boosters should be used until a child can pass the 5 step test in a vehicle - they might need a booster in some cars but not others.

 

What's the 5 step test? http://www.carseat.org/Boosters/630.htm

 

Why is rear facing safer?

http://www.car-safety.org/rearface.html

 

Why is a 5 point harness safer than a booster?

http://www.kyledavidmiller.org/pages/4211/Car_Seat_Safety:_5-point_Harness_is_Safest.htm

 

Those of you who posted about how state laws don't require boosters or have booster age limits, when I am questioned about this at Seat Checks, I tell parents "the laws of physics trump the laws of the state and until a child can pass the 5 step test, then the laws of physics say your child isn't going to be protected in a crash".

 

Seatbelt syndrome, internal decapitation, and other head, thorax, and cervical spine injuries are common in children in crashes. As parents, it's our responsibility to make sure our children are as safe as they can be. 95% of children in the US aren't safe in the car, carseat/booster misuse is high, and the number of kids not restrained at all is alarming. With automobile crashes being the #1 killer of children, how can we, as parents not take child passenger safety seriously?

 

Find a local CPST www.safekids.org/certification and click the link to the right that says "find a technician or instructor".

 

For more information on the internet, please visit www.car-seat.org

[Guest Gypsy]

After reading more, I have more thoughts...

 

The back seat is 40% safer than the front seat.

 

Rear facing is 5x safer than forward facing.

 

The most protected (rear facing) child should be in the least protected (front seat or rear outboard as long as there are no front airbags, front airbags can kill children in rear facing seats) position. The least protected child (backless booster or no booster) should be in the most protected (center rear) position.

 

Backless boosters and high back boosters are equally safe in frontal (most common) crashes.

 

However, high back boosters - especially those with deep side wings are 70% safer in side impact (the most deadly) crashes.

 

Every step "up" in child seats is a step "down" in safety. Don't be in a hurry to move onto that next step!

[Lolly]

I am a parent who had a Britax 5 pt harness seat for my older kids 5 years before laws legislating that kids had to be in a carseat until 9. My eldest was still using a booster at 10. But, I do not think it should be legislated. I see seatbelt usage legislation as an invasion of personal freedom. Same with telling me who can/can't ride in the front seat of my car based on age. I think air bags should all come with a shut off for people who need to put younger children in the front seat. (They may now?) I needed to keep my eldest in the front for safety reasons when she was young. The car repair places refused to disable my airbags putting my child at larger risk. They told me the only thing I could do was to keep her in a carseat to keep her safer. So, I did that until she was too tall for the carseats. Now, the law is 12 to sit in the front seat. There are times when I need my 11 yo to sit in the front because it is safer for me to have him there. A distracted, angry driver is not safe. So, I put him there even though the law thinks he shouldn't be. Of course, the fact that he is physically larger than his older sisters has no bearing on anything legally. Me, I think the law should allow parents to make the decision as to when a child uses a car seat and where they sit in the car. Yes, some people will not make the safest choice. Then again, a rigid law is not necessarily providing the safest options at all times either.

[melissel]

Thank you, Gypsy!!!

[Wendy In KS]

Maybe I'm just dense here, but how on earth could a 4-6 year old ride rear facing? I couldn't even imagine my 21mo old riding backwards without her legs getting all smooshed. I'm just curious how that works.

 

I'm not against child safety seats by any means- we were in a horrible crash when dd1 was only six weeks old, and the police officer couldn't believe we all walked away from it with only scratches because of our seatbelts/carseat. I always felt good about that accident because we got a 30 second sound bite on the news where the officer showed our car and praised the use of restraints- thought maybe that changed someone's mind about seatlbelts and saved someone's life :D

 

My youngest two are still in five point harnesses, my 6 yo is in a booster, my 8 yo passes the height and weight requirements and sits without anything, and my 10yo is over 5 feet tall and will sit in the front seat a lot of the time. We also drive a conversion van, so I feel like we have a little extra protection just by sheer size of vehicle.

[ChristusG]

As for the rear facing thing.....have you ever seen how young kids sit while on the ground and such? They have their legs all smooshed up, sitting different ways, and we wonder how in the world they sit comfortably like that. Kids can sit rear facing with their legs indian style and it probably would not bother them. Kids are much more limber than adults think they are because an adult would not be comfortable like that.

[Pamela H in Texas]

Respect the choices another parent makes for his family

 

For some things sure. But I don't have respect for those breaking the law (unless it is necessary to follow God's laws, of course). I also don't have respect for people who put children in danger for no good reason, just idiocy.

 

<shrug>

[Pamela H in Texas]

but how on earth could a 4-6 year old ride rear facing?

 

THAT I can't imagine. I put young toddlers rear facing still as it's safer and better for them though I don't know another soul that does so. Seems there is a big rush to turn them around despite it being inferior.

 

But I can't imagine a 4-6yo rear facing.

[chaik76]

I am a parent who had a Britax 5 pt harness seat for my older kids 5 years before laws legislating that kids had to be in a carseat until 9. My eldest was still using a booster at 10. But, I do not think it should be legislated. I see seatbelt usage legislation as an invasion of personal freedom. Same with telling me who can/can't ride in the front seat of my car based on age. I think air bags should all come with a shut off for people who need to put younger children in the front seat. (They may now?) I needed to keep my eldest in the front for safety reasons when she was young. The car repair places refused to disable my airbags putting my child at larger risk. They told me the only thing I could do was to keep her in a carseat to keep her safer. So, I did that until she was too tall for the carseats. Now, the law is 12 to sit in the front seat. There are times when I need my 11 yo to sit in the front because it is safer for me to have him there. A distracted, angry driver is not safe. So, I put him there even though the law thinks he shouldn't be. Of course, the fact that he is physically larger than his older sisters has no bearing on anything legally. Me, I think the law should allow parents to make the decision as to when a child uses a car seat and where they sit in the car. Yes, some people will not make the safest choice. Then again, a rigid law is not necessarily providing the safest options at all times either.

Agreeing!

[melissel]

A child who is too tall should not sit rear facing. An impact can break their legs. My last baby was 10 pounds at birth. I have very tall children, thanks to dh's genetics. We turned her seat at 10 months old. She was bigger than some two-year-olds we knew. She was safe, forward facing, because of her hight, weight and where she was developmentally.

 

The laws should be based on hight and weight, not age. My 11 yo is taller than I am so I see no problem with him sitting in the front seat on occasion. The seat belt fits better of him than on me.

 

And I would say, better broken legs than a snapped neck. A rear-facing child child has better head and neck protection in almost every kind of accident than a forward-facing child.

 

In addition, as children age, their musculoskeletal systems mature. A taller, younger child in the front seat is not as safe in a crash as a taller, older child is.

 

We're talking about our children here. I don't really understand how we could not err on the side of caution in every situation imaginable. As long as there's a 5-point harness available that will fit my child, I'll use it. As long as there's a safer booster with side impact protection available, I'll use it over a backless seat positioning booster. As long as my child can sit in the back seat buckled safely, she will. What exactly is it costing to keep your children even marginally safer? (And Cadam, this isn't directly at you alone. I'm just speaking generally WRT the whole thread.)

[Pamela H in Texas]

She was safe, forward facing, because of her hight, weight and where she was developmentally.

 

A 10 month old could NEVER be so advanced as to be equally as safe facing forward. I understand your justifications and made some myself with my first child and thankfully it didn't turn out badly for you or me. However, we were WRONG.

[Spy Car]

At some point the child is big enough that you simply can't find a 5-point seat to fit them. I am a Britex girl myself but my 7yo is very tall. There isn't a 5-point seat made (that I know of, and I looked) that will fit her. The law in our state no longer requires that she be in a booster at all, but I do. I don't have delusions that the booster will keep her any safer than a standard seat belt keeps me though. It just raises her to the proper hight for the belt.

 

Christina, my son is only 4. What will I do when he out-grows his current "Radian 80" seat? I don't know? Like you, I suppose (assuming there are not changes in the interim) I'd put him in the best booster I could find.

 

I'm just seeing that nearly all my son's playmates have been transitioned into "booster seats", these are kids who are 4-5 years old. There are 5 point seats that fit children that age. The parent's of all these children love their children, and would do anything for them. I doubt one among them thinks they are doing anything but the best they can for their kids. They just don't "know".

 

I was very nearly in the same boat myself. We were literally on the way out to purchase a booster seat (because that's what you do) when I said "wait, let me just check this out online first". And that's when I got my surprise.

 

I'm just hoping my posts here may help make a parent aware that there are alternatives we can choose for our 4 to 6 /7 (?) year olds who would otherwise be in a booster.

 

I understand the frustration of not being able to find a 5 point seat for your daughter. The good news is things change. I grew up in an age when seat-bets were pretty optional, and as a baby I was kept in the back seat in a repurposed cardboard box from the grocery store that once held a case of peanut butter. So hopefully we learn, and move forward.

 

All the best,

 

Bill

[Carol in Cal.]

When I was in college, a pastor told me about a collision he was in that broke every bone in his face except one--and that he would have walked away unscathed from if he had been wearing a seat belt. So I started wearing them religiously.

 

And I researched baby seats before DD was born, and bought the most highly rated restraints I could find from then on.

 

When DD was about a 14 months old, she still rode in the original rear facing seat because she was so light in weight that I was concerned that she would submarine out of a a front facing seat in an accident. All the books at that time said that the longer you keep kids in a rear facing seat in the middle of the back seat, the safer they are.

 

One day I was driving on the freeway back from a doctor's appointment at about 60MPH, and someone swerved into our lane and clipped us and cut us off. I hit the brakes and the SUV skidded across two (full) lanes of traffic, thankfully hitting no cars (a miracle, truly), crashed into the Jersey barrier, and rolled several times.

 

The stroller that I had in the far back of the car flew up into the back seat and landed over DD in her car seat. The car ended up on its left side. Some Good Samaritans came by and pulled us out. We were taken to the hospital by ambulance. We both were checked in and out the same day.

 

That car seat and my seat belt saved our lives--no question about that. None. And, frankly, the angels worked hard that day for us, too.

 

I will never be cavelier about child car seats. They work.

[Guest Gypsy]

In Sweden, they have very different rear facing carseats than we have in the US. They rear face to 25kg or about 55 pounds. Here is a picture of one of the many seats that are available there.

 

From http://www.childrestraintsafety.com/rear-facing.html

 

"When the heavy head of the forward-facing child is thrust forward in an accident, this puts an enormous amount of stress on the child's neck, which is trying to hold back the head. The heavy weight of the child's head can stretch the spinal cord. "According to documented research, autopsy specimens of infant spines and ligaments allow for spinal column elongation of up to two inches, but the spinal cord ruptures if stretched more than 1/4 inch. Real-world experience has shown that a young child's skull can be literally ripped from her spine by the force of a crash." (source: CPSTE ).

 

If the spinal cord stretches too far in an accident this can cause it to tear, thus resulting in paralysis or death of the child. This is often described as "internal decapitation". Even babies who ‘appear’ to have strong neck muscles and good head control are susceptible to these risks.

 

Young children have immature cervical vertebrae (neck bones) that are not strong enough to protect the spinal cord adequately in an accident when forward-facing in a frontal crash. The vertebrae are still in pieces joined by cartilage. These pieces are soft and have not yet ossified into a complete circle of bone which will enclose and protect the spinal cord.

 

Because the vertebrae are still in pieces (joined only by cartilage), a child that is forward-facing faces a heightened risk of damage to the spinal cord when their head and neck pull forward and back in a frontal crash."

 

See how big a young child's head is in comparison to the rest of their body?

 

The bones in the neck/spine aren't fully ossified until between 3 & 6 years.

 

My own kids stayed rear facing until they were almost 3 when they outgrew their convertible carseat's limits. I wanted to keep them rear facing longer, but there are no seats in the US to acommodate that.

 

Here are pictures of older kids rear facing in the US http://www.cpsafety.com/articles/RFAlbum.aspx

 

And check out some crash test footage here http://www.cpsafety.com/articles/stayrearfacing.aspx

 

A 10 month old is NEVER safe forward facing. As you can see by all of this information it has nothing to do with height, weight or development, it has to do with bone maturity and as a child gets older their bones are more mature. 1 year AND 20 pounds is terribly outdated, 1 year olds are not safe forward facing. The current recommendation is to rear face to the limits of a convertible carseat, and many people in the child passenger safety world are trying to get the recommendation moved up to "the rear facing limits of the convertible carseat or a minimum of 2 years AND 30 pounds".

 

There has never been a single documented case of a child with leg or hip injuries as a result of rear facing, but there are many, many reports of children with head/neck/spine injuries from forward facing before age 2.

Edited October 6, 2008 by Gypsy

[Mommy22alyns]

A child who is too tall should not sit rear facing. An impact can break their legs. My last baby was 10 pounds at birth. I have very tall children, thanks to dh's genetics. We turned her seat at 10 months old. She was bigger than some two-year-olds we knew. She was safe, forward facing, because of her hight, weight and where she was developmentally.

 

 

 

"Broken legs? Cast it. Broken neck? Casket."

 

No 10 month old is developed enough to sit front-facing, I don't care if they're 40" tall and 40 lbs. We weren't able to do it with our kids (didn't know enough with Becca, and Sylvia got carsick), but I've seen kids well over age 3 still riding rear-facing with big smiles on their faces.

 

As it is now, both of my girls are still firmly ensconced in 5 point harness seats. Every so-called step up, from rear facing to front facing to belt positioning booster and onward, is a significant step down in safety.

 

I urge anyone with a young child to take a look at this website - it's the reason my girls aren't moving out of a 5 point harness anytime soon.

 

www.kyledavidmiller.org

[Spy Car]

To anyone reading the thread who is considering a new car seat, here is a link to the "Radian 80" model we purchased. This did not exist when we needed a rear-facing infant seat, but it does convert from a rear-facing infant seat into a 5 point front facing seat that can be used up to 80 lbs.

 

These have interior steel frames, and are built like tanks.

 

It is expensive, but it can replace 3 stages of seats, so in the long run...

 

http://sunshinekidsbaby.com/

 

Bill (who does not own stock in Sunshine Kids)

[Renee in NC]

To anyone reading the thread who is considering a new car seat, here is a link to the "Radian 80" model we purchased. This did not exist when we needed a rear-facing infant seat, but it does convert from a rear-facing infant seat into a 5 point front facing seat that can be used up to 80 lbs.

 

These have interior steel frames, and are built like tanks.

 

It is expensive, but it can replace 3 stages of seats, so in the long run...

 

http://sunshinekidsbaby.com/

 

Bill (who does not own stock in Sunshine Kids)

 

It only goes to 33 pounds in the rear facing position - isn't that a problem if you are looking to keep them rear-facing as long as possible?

[mo2]

Well, the law is the law. While my 6yo hates her booster, it is still required. (I myself think it is kind of silly that it is perfectly legal for her to ride on the back of my husband's motorcycle with no restraint whatsoever but in the car she has to be in a booster.) In any case, we still make her sit in the booster because it's the law.

[LisaKinVA]

We're getting ready to chuck our 2nd car seat (a Britax Roundabout), due to age. It's in great condition, and has never been in an accident. But, one never knows what might be going on that I *can't* see.

 

I do not like riding with my older brother's family due to the car seat issue. They have "car seats" that are not firmly attached to the seat, AND are in excess of 10 years old. I about freaked when I saw my 2yo dd put into a seat with the old "pull down" bar, no 5-pt harness in the van.

 

My oldest (9yo in an 11yo body) is still in a booster. But will be losing the booster at the end of the year. My 5yo is in a 5-pt convertible to high-back booster, which, even though he is technically "big" enough to be in a normal booster, He's so slight he really needs a 5-pt for at least another year.

 

My biggest gripe is that our van isn't wide enough so that the 3-person bench seat can hold 3 car seats. A new vehicle that can is a good 18 months away financially... sigh.

[camibami]

I just don't get NOT using the safest apparatus available. I have a 38 pound 7 year old, who is in a high backed booster with a harness. Her best friend, same age and height though he weighs more, is out of a seat altogether. Pure craziness, IMO. I make him ride in a booster in our car (we have an extra and my oldest still uses one at 10).

 

She doesn't mind her booster- some friends at gymnastics who are older still have harness boosters, too. Its quite uncommon here (except for the neighbors!) for kids to be out of boosters/harness before 9-10.

[Laura Corin]

There is a lot of information out there from a wide variety of sources comparing 5 point restraint seats with boosters, which show the inadequacy of "boosters".

 

Here is one crash film. The 5 point is on the inside.

 

http://www.oeamtc.at/netautor/html_seiten/kisitest_2002/videos/test2002/frontcrash/maxicosirodi.mpg

 

It happens that the booster in the film you linked is one of the ones we have for Hobbes (8). I'm trying to understand whether boosters cause a seat belt to work worse, or whether that crash with an adult in that seat belt would have shown the same (alarmingly large) range of movement. Any thoughts?

 

Thanks

 

Laura