"Ask for forgiveness, not for permission" who said this?

[Ginevra]

Does anyone know where this saying originated? I had not heard it until I read it in Tim Ferriss' book a few years ago, but I have since realized that many people use this expression, and I don't think they all got it from that same book.

[poppy]

I've heard it in corporate circles for at least 15 years.

[Mom2Five]

me...when I was a teenager, lol.

[Guest]

I don't think it has a definable source. I've run into it in multiple media and print references and used it myself for years.

 

"Better to ask forgiveness than permission" is my personal usage of it.

Edited March 22, 2016 by Arctic Mama

[8circles]

Been around for decades.

 

I hate it.  It's the ultimate excuse to do the wrong thing.

[MFG]

Looks like it was Rear Admiral Grace Hopper.

 

https://en.m.wikiquote.org/wiki/Grace_Hopper

[Guest]

Looks like it was Rear Admiral Grace Hopper.

 

https://en.m.wikiquote.org/wiki/Grace_Hopper

That makes sense! I greatly admire Hopper.

[Guest]

Looks like it was Rear Admiral Grace Hopper.

 

https://en.m.wikiquote.org/wiki/Grace_Hopper

What an impressive woman!

[hornblower]

I think it's much older than the Grace Hopper attribution; she is quoted as saying it in 1986 

I was told it's a very old Catholic joke. 

Edited March 22, 2016 by hornblower

[maize]

I think it's been around forever, certainly I've been hearing it my whole life!

[ChocolateReignRemix]

Been around for decades.

 

I hate it.  It's the ultimate excuse to do the wrong thing.

 

Interesting.  I always took it as willingness to take a risk.

[gardenmom5]

My mil's motto.

[Lolly]

For me, an Episcopal priest who was also my boss. His was "It's better to do and beg forgiveness than to ask and be denied."

[gardenmom5]

Interesting. I always took it as willingness to take a risk.

Mil uses it to get away with carp she KNOWS would bring major objections.

[Guest]

For me, an Episcopal priest who was also my boss. His was "It's better to do and beg forgiveness than to ask and be denied."

When Tim Ferriss uses it in the book, he tags on the thought that, "Most people are fast to stop you before you start, but hesitant to get in your way if you're moving." I think, seen in this light, it is not an excuse to do something wrong but a way of getting past people's default inertia. Sometimes, that is what we have to do in order to accomplish anything, and if the end result is good, they may find there is no criticism due you after all.

[eternalsummer]

If there is no criticism due you I don't know why you'd need to ask forgiveness.

 

Possibly I am getting the context wrong.

 

eta: if it's something you need to ask permission for, then not asking permission is bad.  If it's something you don't need to ask permission for, then why would you need to ask forgiveness?  Is this just another way of saying "don't be polite for politeness's sake - do the right thing regardless of what other people think"?  That I can understand and agree with.

Edited March 22, 2016 by ananemone

[ChocolateReignRemix]

When Tim Ferriss uses it in the book, he tags on the thought that, "Most people are fast to stop you before you start, but hesitant to get in your way if you're moving." I think, seen in this light, it is not an excuse to do something wrong but a way of getting past people's default inertia. Sometimes, that is what we have to do in order to accomplish anything, and if the end result is good, they may find there is no criticism due you after all.

 

I have generally heard it used (and possibly used it myself) when dealing with a bureaucracy.

[El...]

I think it has been around for a long time.  Here's a discussion of its origins (but not much new info): http://freakonomics.com/2010/06/24/quotes-uncovered-forgiveness-permission-and-awesomeness/

 

It reminds me of another classic rationalization slogan, "It's better to be tried by twelve than carried by six." 

[Guest]

When Tim Ferriss uses it in the book, he tags on the thought that, "Most people are fast to stop you before you start, but hesitant to get in your way if you're moving." I think, seen in this light, it is not an excuse to do something wrong but a way of getting past people's default inertia. Sometimes, that is what we have to do in order to accomplish anything, and if the end result is good, they may find there is no criticism due you after all.

 

 

I have generally heard it used (and possibly used it myself) when dealing with a bureaucracy.

 

 

These both sound like great reasons to use this phrase!

 

The first time I heard it, was when a girl at work got caught in the act of stealing something from another coworkers' purse. She thought she was verrrrry cute. We all thought she sucked a whole lot.

[eternalsummer]

Maybe it is the rationalization I have trouble with; I don't get the second one either!  

[Guest]

If there is no criticism due you I don't know why you'd need to ask forgiveness.

 

Possibly I am getting the context wrong.

 

eta: if it's something you need to ask permission for, then not asking permission is bad. If it's something you don't need to ask permission for, then why would you need to ask forgiveness? Is this just another way of saying "don't be polite for politeness's sake - do the right thing regardless of what other people think"? That I can understand and agree with.

Because. Sometimes there are rules that do not serve the best purpose. So...I don't know, let's say The Boss said, "What?? You opened the store at 6:00 to let someone in when it doesn't open until 7:00?! WHY would you DO that?! It could have been a theif! It could have been a rapist!" But you did this for a specific and good reason. The person who asked for entry to the store at 6:00 was the buyer for the local posh conference center and they placed an order for $2,467.00 in food and servingware products. You knew, if asked, The Boss would say don't ever open the store early, but you made the executive decision because the dude had verifiable identification and this was worth it.

[Guest]

These both sound like great reasons to use this phrase!

 

The first time I heard it, was when a girl at work got caught in the act of stealing something from another coworkers' purse. She thought she was verrrrry cute. We all thought she sucked a whole lot.

Yeah, not hardly the context in which I would use this phrase. Dope.

[eternalsummer]

Because. Sometimes there are rules that do not serve the best purpose. So...I don't know, let's say The Boss said, "What?? You opened the store at 6:00 to let someone in when it doesn't open until 7:00?! WHY would you DO that?! It could have been a theif! It could have been a rapist!" But you did this for a specific and good reason. The person who asked for entry to the store at 6:00 was the buyer for the local posh conference center and they placed an order for $2,467.00 in food and servingware products. You knew, if asked, The Boss would say don't ever open the store early, but you made the executive decision because the dude had verifiable identification and this was worth it.

 

Ah, that makes sense.  In that case I wouldn't need to ask forgiveness, though - I would have done the right thing.

 

But I can see how asking permission beforehand would be inconvenient or even impossible, so it makes more sense to just follow the spirit of the law and let things shake out.

[Guest]

Maybe it is the rationalization I have trouble with; I don't get the second one either!

Don't you know anyone who says, "No" automatically before they have considered the request for so much as a minute?

 

I did this with DH recently (over-rode his objection by just doing it without asking). I have bugged him for ages to update his business style and create a logo. The font used by his dad 50 years ago does not look modern and "with it." Well, he has not seen the need. But I am, basically, his marketing department and he needs rebranding and he needs it now. So I hired a logo designer at 99 Designs. Initially, yes, DH was mad. But - oh well. Be mad, then. You can't entice customers if you look like you haven't updated the business in fifty years. Young people will not contract him if they think he's a stodgy old guy. He did get over it - what else is he going to do, be mad every day cause I want to make his business more attractive to customers?

[eternalsummer]

Hah, I think I was taking it too literally!  DH is a pretty unilateral decision-maker but I largely don't override him, I just find a way to make it work (or persuade him, eventually).  I totally get what you mean about the logo thing, though - DH and I have a business together and for the most part he couldn't care less about the logo or the branding or our listings or new clip art (we make kids' name tags, so I go through a lot of clip art).  For him it is just about function - which is actually *great*, because I am terrible about organizing things to run more smoothly or function better.  

 

The only person I know who says "no" automatically is DS7 :)  He has a very good intuition about when I'm going to ask him to help clean up, and boy does he hate cleaning.

[Ravin]

I don't think all of those originated with Adm. Hopper. I know the saw about sleeping if you have nothing better to do predates 1986. It's an old Navy saying I think I first heard from Robert Heinlein (who probably didn't originate it either).

 

Sources are cited for "better to beg forgiveness than ask permission" back to 1971 for it here: http://freakonomics.com/2010/06/24/quotes-uncovered-forgiveness-permission-and-awesomeness/

Edited March 22, 2016 by Ravin

[Guest]

Interesting. I always took it as willingness to take a risk.

Me too :)

[elegantlion]

Pretty sure my ex coined that phrase.  :coolgleamA: 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

*kidding* 

[zimom]

I was going to answer this.  Our neighborhood is built on an old Naval base and the main building is Grace Hopper Hall.  When I picked up my new resident papers they gave me a quick bio of Grace Hopper and told me about this quote   :)

 

Edited March 22, 2016 by zimom

[Rachel]

I thought my mom made that up! Of course it was only applied to her it definitely did not apply to us kids.

[gardenmom5]

Because. Sometimes there are rules that do not serve the best purpose.  You knew, if asked, The Boss would say don't ever open the store early, but you made the executive decision because the dude had verifiable identification and this was worth it.

 

I encountered a women at a church bazaar like this.   there were signs out, the door was  unlocked, everything was ready to go.  I came in and started perusing the items they were sellilng.  "oh, were not open yet.  you can't be in here and have to go back out side."  and not remotely in a tone that would encourage someone to come back.  well, the thing started at 9am. . . . it was 8.59.  fine, I'll leave, and won't buy anything . . .

 

These both sound like great reasons to use this phrase!

 

The first time I heard it, was when a girl at work got caught in the act of stealing something from another coworkers' purse. She thought she was verrrrry cute. We all thought she sucked a whole lot.

dmil . . . . where do I begin .. . . . she lived with us for 11 months.  (you can't PAY me enough to have her live with me for a week! and she's in a wheelchair so she's seriously curtailed the trouble to which she can find.)

she wanted to clean our bedroom (we'd lived in the house for six months.  it was a brand new house) . . . she didn't ask.. . . . we were out of town on vacation . . . .came home, every stick of furniture from our bedroom was in the living room. . . . every single one.  she was "dusting". . . . . six weeks later, I LOCKED our bedroom door to keep her out when we left town for two days.  "no" is not in her vocabulary.  "well, you could have just told me you didn't want me to go in your room".  yeah, 'cause that would stop her.  not.  btw; she picked the lock and the door was open.

like I said - she used "it's easier to ask forgiveness than permission" as a means to get away with absolute garbage. the woman is insane.

 

Don't you know anyone who says, "No" automatically before they have considered the request for so much as a minute?

 

anyone who knows mil knows the only possible way to slow her down is to say NO, loudly and often.  she "might" hear it.  once out of a dozen or more times.

eta: only fools - or people who didn't know what they were getting into - would consider her 'requests'.

Edited March 22, 2016 by gardenmom5

[JFSinIL]

my first thought was Bill Clinton...but I suspect that is not accurate ;-)

[heartlikealion]

I've used that expression in dealing with work-related matters. Like, one time I just showed up at work with dyed hair (red streaks). If I had asked permission they probably would have discouraged it. I don't think we had anything specific in the dress code about it and another employee also had some color in her hair so I figured what were they gonna say? Dye it back? I didn't think they would fire me over it. I was an employee in good standing.

[creekland]

I think it's much older than the Grace Hopper attribution; she is quoted as saying it in 1986 

 

I was told it's a very old Catholic joke. 

 

I don't know if it's Catholic because that saying in the form of "It's easier to ask for forgiveness than permission" has been in my family for years - all my memorable years and probably some before that.  We're not Catholic.

 

I love the saying, but not if someone uses it for stealing or other similar deals.

 

It's definitely easier to plow on ahead with something you feel is right rather than slowing down to get official permission...  If it ends up not working out, then you ask for forgiveness, but having to do so is rare if used correctly. (Educated guess/feeling rather than impulse.)

[Seasider]

I've heard it in corporate circles for at least 15 years.

This. And the version I heard was, "It's sometimes easier to ask forgiveness than permission."

[Seasider]

Looks like it was Rear Admiral Grace Hopper.

 

https://en.m.wikiquote.org/wiki/Grace_Hopper

Oh! I should have known that, given my signature!

[PrincessMommy]

Been around for decades.

 

I hate it.  It's the ultimate excuse to do the wrong thing.

 

i completely agree.  I remember when I first heard this as a young adult and thinking... "hmmm, that just doesn't sound very nice."   The person who said it thought it was a great rule to live by.   I see it as an excuse to be selfish or rude.

[Guest]

Oh! I should have known that, given my signature!

Funnily enough, I just learned from this link that that quote (in your siggy) is mis-attributed to her. It was a saying she adopted from another naval officer or something.

[8circles]

i completely agree.  I remember when I first heard this as a young adult and thinking... "hmmm, that just doesn't sound very nice."   The person who said it thought it was a great rule to live by.   I see it as an excuse to be selfish or rude.

 

Yeah, I mean if I'm supposed to ask for permission to do y but I don't because y is the right thing to do... then I wouldn't be inclined to ask for forgiveness after doing y because it was the right thing to do & I would't need forgiveness.

 

There is someone who I used to interract with regularly (we were on a committee together) who operates by this motto.  It is *so* irritating because she just does whatever she wants & then assumes that nobody will challenge her after she does it.  Which we don't because it would be more trouble than it's worth.  But I ended-up just resigning because it ended up being a one-woman show.  I mean, it was fine - her choices weren't my choice but they weren't worth fighting about.  But why pretend it's a committee when it really wasn't?  It was just disrespectful.

[teachermom2834]

I generally am a rule follower and do not like that approach but I recently had an occasion where I encouraged someone to take that approach. It basically was a woman subordinate to a committee who knew WAY more than the committee. She was of high character and needed authorization for something. I thought the committee would get worked up just because they didn't really know the situation and history. Plus, I knew they would likely never find out or they would be too lazy to do anything after the fact. I used that expression to encourage the lady to just do what she needed to do and deal with any fallout later.

 

It worked...what needed to happen happened and everything worked out great and the busy body committee was none the wiser. They may have thrown up unnecessary roadblocks if permission was asked. So I can see some situations I might take that approach. But I would not operate that way on a regular basis. Those people make me crazy- but they do usually get what they want :(

Edited March 23, 2016 by teachermom2834

[Murphy101]

I've heard it since I was a little kid.

 

I don't know where it came from, but I'm pretty sure it's responsible for a lot of people being surprised that forgiveness shouldn't have been a foregone expectation.

[poppy]

I don't see it as a negative at all, at least in a business context.  It is something you say when you do a commonsense change  without  going through the chain of meetings and paperwork and a review board.   Or it's what you do when you contact someone you're not "supposed" to be in touch with due to a difference in rank.  It's risk and action versus red tape and bureaucracy.

 

But I work in an HR context. It is not something I would expect a NASA engineer to say about making a space shuttle. Or a doctor to say when treating a patient.  It's appropriate for low stakes risks (professional embarrassment, maybe -never safety).

Edited March 23, 2016 by poppy

[FlyingMOm]

My Dad has always said this- I've been hearing it since I was old enough to remember.   I was born in 1975.  :)

[Melinda in VT]

I hear it in business situations in which the person who needs to give approval for something can't be reached, and the lack of a decision is creating a bottleneck or other undesirable situation. So you make the best decision you can, the decision you think the person would have made if they were in possession of the facts you have, and proceed, realizing that if you are wrong, you'll need to ask for forgiveness.

[G5052]

I hear it in business situations in which the person who needs to give approval for something can't be reached, and the lack of a decision is creating a bottleneck or other undesirable situation. So you make the best decision you can, the decision you think the person would have made if they were in possession of the facts you have, and proceed, realizing that if you are wrong, you'll need to ask for forgiveness.

 

When I was a government program manager, I had a boss who was quite a character. He was an ex-Navy, VMI graduate. Somehow he felt like he had to be behind every major decision, and would launch a firestorm if you didn't include him. The problem was that he really didn't understand the culture of the organization and constraints on funding either. He wanted to do everything "the Navy way" twenty years later in a different agency. He often couldn't be found when he was needed (girlfriends and long lunches), and he sometimes got lost in the weeds and couldn't be trusted to make a decision on time. I was finding it very, very hard to get anything done.

This was driving me bonkers until a government contractor who had worked with him off-and-on for 20 years told me, "Ask for forgiveness, not for permission."  He told me to make a solid decisions and to report the successes in a way that made the boss look good. So I did, even putting together an entire training series without him being involved at all. And when it won awards, I sent him to accept them.

 

Not an ideal situation, but I got a lot done with less expense that way. I did have to beg for forgiveness a few times, but it was worth it.

[Rebel Yell]

Been around for decades.

 

I hate it.  It's the ultimate excuse to do the wrong thing.

 

Sometimes... 

 

and sometimes it;s the only way to do the right thing when rules and people are in the way.

[8circles]

Sometimes... 

 

and sometimes it;s the only way to do the right thing when rules and people are in the way.

 

Right - but if you're doing the right thing you won't need forgiveness.  It doesn't make sense.

Edited March 23, 2016 by 8circles

[brehon]

Right - but if you're doing the right thing you won't need forgiveness. It doesn't make sense.

Hmmm...I'm not so sure. That presumes the rule one is choosing to break is a worthwhile or rational or good rule, a presumption I just don't automatically have.

 

I think there is, or can be, a qualitative difference between doing the right thing and doing things right. Believe me when I say that one can absolutely do the right thing and still get in trouble.

 

Maybe you're understanding this too literally.

[G5052]

Right - but if you're doing the right thing you won't need forgiveness.  It doesn't make sense.

 

It doesn't work that way in business. Many times I did the right thing and had to ask for forgiveness from a boss because I had gone against his will. Sounds contrary, but you have to keep things going somehow.

[creekland]

Right - but if you're doing the right thing you won't need forgiveness.  It doesn't make sense.

 

If it ends up being a good choice, you're right.  You don't need forgiveness afterward.  At the time the decision is made one either isn't sure which way to go or technically one is supposed to go through channels to get approval, but there isn't time.

 

The vast majority of times I use this as a standard, I get complimented afterward (by Powers that Be) for how I chose to do things.  Sometimes they never know and it just isn't an issue - using another axiom that "What you don't know doesn't hurt you."  Once in a while I apologize and do differently next time.  It's never a big deal when that happens as they know I took my best guess at the time.  

 

Seriously, most folks don't use this to steal or whatever.  At least, it's not supposed to be used that way.  I'd never approve of using it for that sort of crap.