Just annoying or (verbally) abusive?

[pinkmint]

Long story short, I can't remember ever feeling like I had a decent relationship with my dad. I am a grown up now though, and a Christian as well, and would like to do my best to overlook as much as I can. He has been split up from my mom since I was a small child, and has had irregular involvement in my life. He has a wife who is not an easy person for me to like, but same thing with her. I want to try my best. 

 

Often when I talk to him on the phone, maybe once a month, he brings up the topic of DH and I and the kids coming to visit them (visits are rare because of circumstances). We don't have the means to travel several states away but he has offered to help. I'm wary of visiting them. I'll just give one example that pertains to what I'm asking in the title of this post. There are many examples, but I'll give one. 

 

The last time we saw my dad and his wife for a proper visit (aside from one brief lunch while we were in the middle of a cross country move), was 6 years ago. On the way back to their house from the airport I asked to stop at a fast food taco place that is local to there that I missed going to. I was also pregnant and tired and traveling with a toddler. 

 

Almost every time I have talked to my dad for the past 6 years since then (this is not an exaggeration) he brings up me stopping at the taco place. It was offensive to him and his wife because they had food at their house. I was being an incredible pain in the ass. He gets so angry when he talks about it saying  "if you visit again don't do stupid sh*t like that". 

 

Annoying or abusive? But what I'm really asking is if this type of thing (and trust me, many more like it) is worth considering not visiting them on account of it being a true problem. Or am I just being difficult and too sensitive? 

[amy g.]

I'm sorry, I would not stay in a relationship with anyone who said that to me EVER.

[gardenmom5]

Needs to be short. Phone

 

I wouldn't visit unless I had my own car and was staying in a hotel.

 

Dd's version of dealing with air travel was a real need for fast food hambugers as soon as she landed.

Edited February 16, 2016 by gardenmom5

[pinkmint]

I'm sorry, I would not stay in a relationship with anyone who said that to me EVER.

 

It's interesting for me to hear how others would handle it. As you might guess, this is my normal, so I can't really see it objectively. Plus I am aware of the biblical mandate to honor thy parents and how hard to apply that this is to my situation. 

[gardenmom5]

It's interesting for me to hear how others would handle it. As you might guess, this is my normal, so I can't really see it objectively. Plus I am aware of the biblical mandate to honor thy parents and how hard to apply that this is to my situation.

 

Preventing him from abusing you and your children, is honoring him

[amy g.]

I broke contact with my mother almost 18 years ago. At that point, I asked my priest about that scripture. Both my mother and I were members of his congregation so he was not speaking in a vacuum.

 

He told me I was the hero of the story because actually being the one to break the cycle is MUCH harder than to just follow along behaving the way you were brought up to behave in a dysfunctional family.

 

He told me that if I were to stalk her, try to damage her other relationships, try to get my siblings or her siblings to break contact with her, try to get her fired or evicted, all of those things would be dishonoring.

 

Saying, "I choose to raise my children in an evironment where people behave and speak respectfully." Was not dishonoring it all, but would ultimately bless her in the end.

 

Take it with a pound of salt, but it is one man's interpretation of that scripture.

[The Girls' Mom]

Honoring does not equal doormat.

I couldn't handle being around someone that said something like that to me repeatedly.  

[pinkmint]

Needs to be short. Phone

 

I wouldn't visit unless I had my own car and was staying in a hotel.

 

 

Would you let them pay for those things? I agree having our own car and space would make it much more handle-able. But this is the kind of thing that would be brought up for many years to come. "We paid for your visit and _______ (insert angry remarks about something I did as horrible as the stopping at a taco place thing)!!!"

 

I feel grief over the fact that my kids basically never see him, and we already have weak relationships all around on both DH and my side. He wants to see them and I'm basically not letting it happen. I wish it could happen though. 

[happi duck]

I vote abusive because how on earth would he respond if you made an actual mistake?!?

[gardenmom5]

Would you let them pay for those things? I agree having our own car and space would make it much more handle-able. But this is the kind of thing that would be brought up for many years to come. "We paid for your visit and _______ (insert angry remarks about something I did as horrible as the stopping at a taco place thing)!!!"

 

I feel grief over the fact that my kids basically never see him, and we already have weak relationships all around on both DH and my side. He wants to see them and I'm basically not letting it happen. I wish it could happen though.

No. Who pays the bill has control.

I'd pay myself (if I went) , or would not even consider it.

 

And they could come visit you! How dare he put it all on you

Edited February 16, 2016 by gardenmom5

[Professormom]

Needs to be short. Phone

 

I wouldn't visit unless I had my own car and was staying in a hotel.

This. If you feel like you need to visit, and he wants to help, he can help with a hotel and rental car too. That way you retain enough power to escape if you need to. Eta: you would be giving up a different kind of power because of their financial help, but that seemed to be part of the original plan to visit anyway. I got the impression that if he wasn't helping financially, you wouldn't need to make the decision because you wouldn't be going anyway.

 

Also, you may want to think through whether any of this is likely to bring you joy. I have friends with parents who may be a$$es sometimes, but they also laugh a lot. So they have some redeeming pieces to their visits. Or the relatives are jerks to them, but are very kind to their children.

 

If something in the visit brings joy or at least a little bit of positive, then it may be worth it to you and, of course, only you can know that. However, if there is none of that, if it is miserable and has your stomach in knots, if you are putting forth the effort solely because you "should" try, you may want to keep it to only the phone.

 

:grouphug:

Edited February 16, 2016 by Professormom

[zoobie]

Another vote for abusive. I wouldn't subject myself or my kids to that no matter who's paying.

[GAPeachie]

Would you let them pay for those things? I agree having our own car and space would make it much more handle-able. But this is the kind of thing that would be brought up for many years to come. "We paid for your visit and _______ (insert angry remarks about something I did as horrible as the stopping at a taco place thing)!!!"

 

I feel grief over the fact that my kids basically never see him, and we already have weak relationships all around on both DH and my side. He wants to see them and I'm basically not letting it happen. I wish it could happen though. 

 

Nope.  I had to prevent mixing of finances to minimize permanent reminders of how much my mother had done for me.  Any money comes with the possibility of strings. 

[DesertBlossom]

I wouldn't want to visit someone who talked me like that. How is asking to go to a taco place being a PITA?

 

I wouldn't take his money and I wouldn't visit unless you had complete control over the situation with a motel and a rental car. If that means you can only visit once every 10 years, so be it.

[MyLittleBears]

I am so sorry it is this way for you. :grouphug: 

Honestly, that is NOT normal. He obviously has not forgiven you for the incident ( not that it merits forgiveness since you really did nothing wrong) Someone who holds on to petty stuff like that can be guaranteed to have a problem with something else and will just add to the garbage can of stuff he will dump over you whenever he feels like it.  This is verbal/emotional abuse and it would be a good idea to shield your dc from it. I agree with pp that $ comes with strings attached.

 

 

[gardenmom5]

Nope. I had to prevent mixing of finances to minimize permanent reminders of how much my mother had done for me. Any money comes with the possibility of strings.

Or massive chains . . .

[momacacia]

Do you want him treating your children the way he treats you? Then continue the relationship. If not, then don't. Trust me, experience says that it Just keeps on going. He won't get better without repenting.

 

And you can very kindly remind him that you probably shouldn't visit because you do stuff like that taco thing all.the.time. ;) And there's your out.

[GAPeachie]

Or massive chains . . .

 

True enough.  

[pinkmint]

You know it's funny, I have gone way beyond asking to stop at a taco shop when he didn't want me to. I was a hardcore drug addict. I have done no shortage of things for him to have been upset about in the past, but it's stuff like accidental mild offenses to someone's preferences that he can't let go of. You'd think he'd be happy that I'm alive and not jabbing needles in my arm anymore. Maybe part of that was to cope with having him for a dad, I don't know. But still. The whole thing is nuts.

 

And as for professor mom's post/ question, there is sadly so much more not-happy than happy. It has so much to do with the "should" of it all. I do not enjoy being around him at all. There's no joy and laughing aside from him making rude jokes (that he finds very amusing) about my youngest's middle name and stuff like that. 

[Guest]

Frequency matters but I wouldn't consider that verbally abusive. Rude, crass, and inconsiderate, though. And I wouldn't want to be with someone who had that mouth.

 

I'd tell him frankly that unless he speaks in a respectful, polite way the entire time and his wife does as well, visiting with the kids will not happen, period.

[fraidycat]

Abusive.

 

Not only would I not visit, especially not with financial "strings" attached, I would not maintain a relationship with this person, at all.

 

You say you feel grief over the fact that your kids don't see him. What about him do you want your kids to experience? He doesn't necessarily sound like a very nice person, therefore not necessarily an awesome grandfather. So, is this 'kids missing seeing him' grounded in reality or is it more of a wish based on your perception of what a grandfather *should be*?

 

If he wants to be an awesome grandfather, he can visit them since he has the financial means that you lack at present.

 

So, to sum up: don't go.

 

:grouphug:

[OnMyOwn]

I couldn't visit someone who treated me like that.  Especially, if that is just one small example.  It would be way too stressful and hurtful.

[Chris in VA]

You know it's funny, I have gone way beyond asking to stop at a taco shop when he didn't want me to. I was a hardcore drug addict. I have done no shortage of things for him to have been upset about in the past, but it's stuff like accidental mild offenses to someone's preferences that he can't let go of. You'd think he'd be happy that I'm alive and not jabbing needles in my arm anymore. Maybe part of that was to cope with having him for a dad, I don't know. But still. The whole thing is nuts.

 

And as for professor mom's post/ question, there is sadly so much more not-happy than happy. It has so much to do with the "should" of it all. I do not enjoy being around him at all. There's no joy and laughing aside from him making rude jokes (that he finds very amusing) about my youngest's middle name and stuff like that. 

 

This is just a suggestion--

 

As the parent of a drug addict, I see his getting upset over little things as a sign he is not totally healed from the big things.

IDK, of course, how much he participated in your recovery. Gently--and humbly--addiction is a family disease, and I could see little blow ups about stupid stuff as symptomatic of the need for further, deeper healing on his part.

 

[pinkmint]

 

You say you feel grief over the fact that your kids don't see him. What about him do you want your kids to experience? He doesn't necessarily sound like a very nice person, therefore not necessarily an awesome grandfather. So, is this 'kids missing seeing him' grounded in reality or is it more of a wish based on your perception of what a grandfather *should be*?

 

 

 

:grouphug:

 

Yeah, that. I want a grandparent experience for my kids. I am hanging on to the idea of a loving, supportive, kind, enjoyable extended family experience. It's just so far from reality. I guess it's hard for me to accept. When I see friend's parents be so sweet and loving with their kids, I feel like I'm burning up with envy. Some people have no idea how good they have it in that regard.

[pinkmint]

This is just a suggestion--

 

As the parent of a drug addict, I see his getting upset over little things as a sign he is not totally healed from the big things.

IDK, of course, how much he participated in your recovery. Gently--and humbly--addiction is a family disease, and I could see little blow ups about stupid stuff as symptomatic of the need for further, deeper healing on his part.

 

 

Yeah, this is a whole 'nother topic. I'm quite sure my dad has severe PTSD and other issues. He was born in a country and at a time that was very badly affected by the Nazis. He is impenetrable though. You can't tell him anything. He knows everything and everyone is stupid. Getting help for him would be one heck of a challenge. 

[abba12]

I'll be a dissenter. A lot of people on this forum are very quick to say 'cut contact' or 'end the relationship' but, our families are imperfect, sinful people too who make mistakes. If you cut contact with everyone who makes a mistake, you'll be pretty lonely very quickly. You mention how you've done lots of big stuff for him to be upset at but he is focused on little annoyances? But that kind of seems like what's happening here in reverse. Going ONLY by the one example you've given, this is someone who is kind of a jerk with no social skills and an obvious opinion of what he thinks is proper, but, compared to having no involvement in your life and other issues during your childhood, it kind of seems small fry. 

 

I also consider the remark annoying, not abusive. Wrong and inappropriate, yes, but I guess I reserve the term abuse for damaging, serious situations. Did the comment actually effect you in any real way? If repeatedly bringing up something that irrationally offended them, in a non-manipulative way, is verbally abusive.... well, haven't we all done something similar at least once in our marriages? But, that's a personal pet peeve, I dislike that the definition of abuse has been watered down to mean stuff like this, which takes away from the gravity and importance of the term for victims who really have suffered. 

 

Having said all that. Don't be a doormat. Don't ignore your happiness. In your situation I would visit, occasionally. Very occasionally. Every 6 years sounds alright :P But don't let him pay. Letting him pay, as you said, changes it from 'why would you do stupid stuff like that?' to 'i paid all this money for you to come and visit and you do stupid stuff like that??'. If you can't afford to go yourself I wouldn't go. 

 

 

[abba12]

Yeah, this is a whole 'nother topic. I'm quite sure my dad has severe PTSD and other issues. He was born in a country and at a time that was very badly affected by the Nazis. He is impenetrable though. You can't tell him anything. He knows everything and everyone is stupid. Getting help for him would be one heck of a challenge. 

 

Ah. With this added bit of detail, as a PTSD sufferer myself, it makes a lot more sense.

I have a tendency to hyperfocus on the little things like that, though I am more polite about it. It does not justify his actions, at all, but, given this new information I think you could cut him a little slack. Ignoring his quirks and his inappropriate behaviour for an occasional, on-your-terms visit. 

[pinkmint]

I'll be a dissenter. A lot of people on this forum are very quick to say 'cut contact' or 'end the relationship' but, our families are imperfect, sinful people too who make mistakes. If you cut contact with everyone who makes a mistake, you'll be pretty lonely very quickly. You mention how you've done lots of big stuff for him to be upset at but he is focused on little annoyances? But that kind of seems like what's happening here in reverse. Going ONLY by the one example you've given, this is someone who is kind of a jerk with no social skills and an obvious opinion of what he thinks is proper, but, compared to having no involvement in your life and other issues during your childhood, it kind of seems small fry. 

 

I also consider the remark annoying, not abusive. Wrong and inappropriate, yes, but I guess I reserve the term abuse for damaging, serious situations. Did the comment actually effect you in any real way? If repeatedly bringing up something that irrationally offended them, in a non-manipulative way, is verbally abusive.... well, haven't we all done something similar at least once in our marriages? But, that's a personal pet peeve, I dislike that the definition of abuse has been watered down to mean stuff like this, which takes away from the gravity and importance of the term for victims who really have suffered. 

 

Having said all that. Don't be a doormat. Don't ignore your happiness. In your situation I would visit, occasionally. Very occasionally. Every 6 years sounds alright :p But don't let him pay. Letting him pay, as you said, changes it from 'why would you do stupid stuff like that?' to 'i paid all this money for you to come and visit and you do stupid stuff like that??'. If you can't afford to go yourself I wouldn't go. 

 

 

I tend to agree with that assessment of abuse. Maybe I chose the wrong wording. I was molested (repeatedly forced against threats of violence to preform sex acts) as a child (by someone who is not my dad) and there is no doubt that's abuse. It's had deep and wide waves of damage in my life. It also angers me when people are quick to lump in any undesirable encounter in the same category as that. 

 

But my perception is also probably pretty warped. I am trying to learn what is normal and acceptable. I guess my topic title should be more like "how normal/ acceptable is this?"

Edited February 16, 2016 by pinkmint

[bettyandbob]

If this were an older family friend who lived near so was easy to visit. Would you visit and let your DC have a relationship with him.

 

Just because he's you father doesn't mean he's someone you want the kids to have a relationship with.

 

And if he wants a relationship, why do you have to go to him. Can he visit your area and stay in a local hotel. If he does want to do that and you don't want him to stay with you then it doesn't sound like this is a relationship you should pursue or feel guilty not pursuing.

[Crimson Wife]

Saying this gently, but if you really want to heal your relationship with him, I think it would be a good idea to go through some family counseling/therapy with him. It could be via video conference if he lives far away. I agree with the PP who said that if he's blowing up at you over minor things when there were major issues in the past, the real obstacle is the latter.

[Chris in VA]

:grouphug:

 

I just want to add that reading (in other threads) about the positive and truly brave and wonderful changes and choices you've made in your life gives me a lot of hope. A lot. And I think it's important for you to know that those choices and your witness are really powerful, even to someone you don't know on a homeschooling board.

 

I hope things get better and you find your way with him.

Edited February 17, 2016 by Chris in VA

[pinkmint]

:grouphug:

 

I just want to add that reading (in other threads) about the positive and truly brave and wonderful changes and choices you've made in your life gives me a lot of hope. A lot. And I think it's important for you to know that those choices and your witness is really powerful, even to someone you don't know on a homeschooling board.

 

I hope things get better and you find your way with him.

 

Honestly, this makes my day. Because sometimes it seems like all this awful stuff I've done/ have done to me/ lived through all amounts to pointless hardships. I get discouraged thinking nothing good has or will come out of it and that I'm just a screwed up lady trying to live a normal life now, finding it hard to relate to others since many who have been where I am are not living normal lives now. 

 

But this is like a hug from God. Not to sound dramatic but really. 

[maize]

I wouldn't visit. Yes he is being abusive and no you don't need to subject yourself and family to that.

Edited February 16, 2016 by maize

[Katy]

Hmmm.  Was the taco incident the only time this sort of thing happened, or are there more examples?

 

Frankly, insisting on tacos when they'd probably spent several day preparing for your visit was rude.  But then again, so is nagging a pregnant woman and refusing to let it drop for years.  Parents often think they have the right to nag adult children about things that they would never nag about to anyone else.  It seems to me that he's treating you like his child, but you're not comfortable with treating him as a parent.

 

Frankly, I'd (gently) talk about your concerns with him. There seem to be some boundary issues there and you've had your boundaries violated repeatedly so you don't know what to think about this, but it makes you uncomfortable. 

 

In a healthier relationship, you'd have felt comfortable to tease him about not getting between a tired, hungry pregnant lady and her tacos, and he'd get the point to shut up about it.  In a healthier relationship you'd feel free to say you're sorry you hurt their feelings about food, but the reality was you were hungry and needed food right away.  But you're not there. In a healthier relationship you'd probably feel okay about accepting tickets to visit.  But you don't, and that's okay.  Only you can decide how you're going to let him treat you.

 

Have you read The Five Love Languages?  Something tells me your dad's are not at all the same as yours.

[Ausmumof3]

I think I'd only visit if I could afford to do it on my own terms - accommodation and transport etc. I wouldn't call it abusive but definitely unpleasant and uncomfortable.

[FO4UR]

There are degrees of abuse, and an abuser starts small and only grows from there.

 

His behavior is completely unacceptable. Draw boundaries.  Do not let him say anything to or about the kids that might hurt their feelings. Draw hard boundaries.

 

 

I find the situation very odd.  I think everyone who has moved away from home goes back to their favorite food places when they go home for a visit.  I am guilty as charged.

 

I understand that your dad's wife might have prepared food and was disappointed that you didn't eat it...but why not say, "____ made a delicious meal at home.  I'll bring you back out for tacos at dinner."   I mean that is a non-issue really.  It's odd to keep bringing it up.

[MomatHWTK]

I say this from experience, seeing a good therapist for a few months can help you figure out what is abuse and how to stop the cycle. It may mean cutting off contact, but you may also find that once you are free you are happier than ever before.  :grouphug:

 

Our parents should not be anchors that drag us to the bottom for the rest of our lives.

Edited February 16, 2016 by MomatHWTK

[Little Nyssa]

I would not spend any time with someone who directs that kind of language at me.

[abba12]

I tend to agree with that assessment of abuse. Maybe I chose the wrong wording. I was molested (repeatedly forced against threats of violence to preform sex acts) as a child (by someone who is not my dad) and there is no doubt that's abuse. It's had deep and wide waves of damage in my life. It also angers me when people are quick to lump in any undesirable encounter in the same category as that. 

 

But my perception is also probably pretty warped. I am trying to learn what is normal and acceptable. I guess my topic title should be more like "how normal/ acceptable is this?"

 

I'm sorry for your experience, and obviously there's no doubt that is abuse. That's why I personally find using the term abuse for minor, inappropriate interactions so infuriating. People hear the term sexual abuse and, in my experience, usually assume some touching and that's it, because by widening and watering down the definition of the word, the most common form of sexual abuse IS groping now. Victims of 'severe' abuse are now having to try and find other terms, or use quantifiers to differentiate themselves from someone who was treated inappropriately but not in a major way (just like you did in your own post there, and like I do most of the time), and other people tend to not take the term seriously. Very few people, in my experience, take the terms verbal/emotional/psychological abuse seriously because of the broad range of minor issues it is now used in reference to, that mean people immediately assume something far less serious than they might have 15 years ago with the same word. Sure, more inappropriate behaviour is being pointed out and dealt with, but at the expense of support and understanding for victims of the more severe forms.

 

I wish there was more differentiation in terms, or a separate term for inappropriate and unacceptable actions that are wrong but more minor, as opposed to life-effecting incidents. 

 

And for the record, you sound like you're doing a fabulous job learning to function as a normal person despite what sounds like some pretty horrendous circumstances. I'm jealous :P

[Professormom]

 

 

And you can very kindly remind him that you probably shouldn't visit because you do stuff like that taco thing all.the.time. ;) And there's your out.

Love this!! Passive-aggressive humility. He would have a hard time responding because it would be like pushing on a rope :lol:

[bolt.]

If your taco example is something characteristic, I'd consider the relationship "unhealthy but not "abusive" -- possibly "toxic" if things are frequently that severe. If the taco example is something isolated, or rare (an outburst of temper) I'd go with "unpredictable and occasionally unhealthy".

 

(Is crass talk is his common language? Does he say things like, "Oh s- I forgot to get gas. F. Now I'm gonna be late." -- when things aren't actually very intense? Or does the vulgarity convey extreme intensity, like polite people tend to feel it?)

 

I wouldn't go with "verbally abusive." Verbally abusive relationships are more than relationships that involve harsh/aggressive statements. They are foremost *relationships* -- active, ongoing, significant relationships, with a degree of intimacy. In the abusive relationship, one party has *power and control* over the other: the ability to make the abused person 'dance to their tune' no matter what they actually want. "Verbal abuse" is the tool that maintains that power and control. There are a million variations on how an abuser uses words for that. Sometimes harsh/aggressive words, sometimes lies, or 'loving' put downs, or assumptions of power communicated as if they are obvious, or intentional confusion... It can't be identified by the words themselves, it's the way they work in the relationship that matters.

 

The point is that:

 

*Some* aggressive/harsh words are part of a verbal abuse scenario;

And *some* verbal abuse scenarios involve harsh/aggressive words.

But *not all* verbal abuse involves verbal aggression;

And *not all* verbal aggression is actually part of an abusive relationship.

 

In your case you don't seem to be under his thumb at all. That means that he is aggressive, rude and unkind, but not that he is abusing you. (As far as it seems from this thread.)

 

I think it helps to differentiate aggression from abuse. It helps people who are being abused in ways that don't look like overt aggression to identify what is happening to them (abuse). It helps people deal with aggression in non-central relationships without mistakenly internalizing it as an abusive system -- which helps them work from position of strength/equality in the relationship.

 

Because he's your dad, if you have a history of an abusive parent-child relationship, I might change my tune on your particular situation. That's why I laid out the whole set of ideas so you can find the most sensible vocabulary for yourself, because you know the most.

 

As for the practicalities: I'd respond, "I'd rather not make that trip. If you like, you-and-wife can visit us here. I can recommend some hotels that might suit you."

 

For your entertainment: (You wouldn't host us?) Oh, I'm sorry that won't be possible. I can't make it work." (Why don't you want to come?) "Travelling is really hard work with kids, and I don't think it would turn out well." (What if we pay?) "Oh, it's not the money. We just don't want to travel for family visits." (You travel for fun!) "Yes, travelling for fun is fun: I really like hotels and tourist spots. I don't like being anyone's guest, esp with kids." (Why not?) "I just don't like it." (It was you who ruined your last visit!) "I understand that upset you. I don't want to talk about it any more." (Sputter, blah, profanity!) "Gotta go! Talk to you soon. Buh-bye." (Sputter.) [Click]

Edited February 17, 2016 by bolt.

[pinkmint]

 

And for the record, you sound like you're doing a fabulous job learning to function as a normal person despite what sounds like some pretty horrendous circumstances. I'm jealous :p

 

Lol, that makes me sound pretty good. In real life I am so far behind all these women around me, at church, homeschooling, marriage, financially, daily productivity. But honestly the people whose backgrounds that are the most similar to mine are living out their lives in tragic ways. I credit God's grace as the reason I am doing anything good and right these days because it's no stretch whatsoever that I should be dead, in jail or at least with a troublesome criminal record, hiv positive, a stripper etc. 

 

Many people around me in real life look at me/ DH and probably think we are a bit loser-y but they don't even know the half of it how far I've come, and I guess they don't need to know. 

[Professormom]

You know it's funny, I have gone way beyond asking to stop at a taco shop when he didn't want me to. I was a hardcore drug addict. I have done no shortage of things for him to have been upset about in the past, but it's stuff like accidental mild offenses to someone's preferences that he can't let go of. You'd think he'd be happy that I'm alive and not jabbing needles in my arm anymore. Maybe part of that was to cope with having him for a dad, I don't know. But still. The whole thing is nuts.

 

And as for professor mom's post/ question, there is sadly so much more not-happy than happy. It has so much to do with the "should" of it all. I do not enjoy being around him at all. There's no joy and laughing aside from him making rude jokes (that he finds very amusing) about my youngest's middle name and stuff like that.

((Pink))

 

I am so sorry. (edited to delete personal info).

 

As far as honoring them, I understand why this is hard. Honoring parents is an integral part of faith. However, I think sometimes we project what honor *should* mean in an ideal setting. It does require that we avoid abusing, insulting, undermining, or schadenfreude. However, it does not require us to give them our peace until it is exhausted. When parents make choices that continually injure their children, in my view, they are violating an unspoken but crucial code. Protecting your self/heart/family is NOT equal to dishonoring your parents. That is a false dichotomy.

 

That being said, I am not trying to tell you what to do. Only you know where your relationship sits and what you are ready for.

 

(edited to delete personal info).

Edited February 25, 2016 by Professormom

[Professormom]

If this were an older family friend who lived near so was easy to visit. Would you visit and let your DC have a relationship with him.

 

Just because he's you father doesn't mean he's someone you want the kids to have a relationship with.

 

 

Oh and the main impetus for my finally laying the boundaries was because I could not have that influence on my kids. I could handle it, up until I had kids. That was what made me finally set the boundary.

[abba12]

Lol, that makes me sound pretty good. In real life I am so far behind all these women around me, at church, homeschooling, marriage, financially, daily productivity. But honestly the people whose backgrounds that are the most similar to mine are living out their lives in tragic ways. I credit God's grace as the reason I am doing anything good and right these days because it's no stretch whatsoever that I should be dead, in jail or at least with a troublesome criminal record, hiv positive, a stripper etc. 

 

Many people around me in real life look at me/ DH and probably think we are a bit loser-y but they don't even know the half of it how far I've come, and I guess they don't need to know. 

 

I totally get that. People I knew from my background are now dead. Harsh, but true. I have no idea how I'm here except by the grace of God, because I sure as hell didn't do it. I am woefully behind everyone I look to, my daily life is a mess, but, I can't compare myself to 'normal people' and neither should you. Compared to our peers, we're doing pretty damn well it sounds like! Though, I have one thing working in my favour, some of the symptoms of what I went through (quick analytical emotionless thought, and always needing to make a good outward impression and actually having the organization skills to make it happen) make me look really, really good to the ladies at church lol! One has even expressed jealousy/admiration, if only they knew what was on the other side (which is exactly what I told her). 

 

You can't expect an elephant to keep up with the mouse at sneaking, and you can't expect a bear to keep up with a cheetah at running. But the elephant and the bear have their own skills and purposes. You'll find yours, and you're already miles ahead of your fellow elephants and bears who are still trapped in crime/sex/whatever. You can only do the best with the life you've been given, and those other people are doing the best they can with the life they've been given, and God knows the reason for it all.

 

Anyway, I'm hopelessly off topic now lol, but if you need a listening ear feel free to PM me. 

[momacacia]

"There's no joy and laughing aside from him making rude jokes (that he finds very amusing) about my youngest's middle name and stuff like that."

 

Does he make jokes about the child's name in front of your child/children or only to you? Can't say I feel great about the latter, but if he said those things in front of the child that would be an absolute no-go and it is verbally abusive from a grandparent to a child. Quite honestly, he's a bully. I'm sorry, but that's what it sounds like.

[Tanaqui]

I'm reading your comments, and you bring up a lot of things almost offhandedly - your father may be suffering from some form of PTSD (which seems to be affecting his relationship with you), you were raped as a child, you suffered from a drug addiction.... It sounds like you've been through a lot!

 

None of us here knows your entire situation like you do. I wonder if it might be beneficial to bring this up in counseling. There seems to be an awful lot of baggage around your childhood and adolescence which is bound to affect your decision making when it comes to your dad. *hugs*

[Tsuga]

I once read that abuse is like a sunburn. Tolerance and length of exposure matters. 

 

Abuse is a continuum. It's relative in some senses--sometimes it's obvious but sometimes it's insidious.

 

I wouldn't spent much time around your dad if I were you. It doesn't matter if it's "abuse" or "just annoying".

 

The important thing is that you know what you are willing to tolerate and set clear boundaries with him, and if he can't handle it, set the boundaries by only spending certain times with him and being prepared to leave when you need to. It doesn't have to be abuse to be worth stopping.

 

:grouphug:

 

 

[Kiara.I]

What happens when you say something like:

 

"Dad?  You've told me about the taco thing.  For the last SIX YEARS.  I get that you were insulted.  I apologized.  Six years ago. I am now DONE hearing about it.  Do not bring it up again."

[pinkmint]

I truly appreciate the input, everyone. 

 

Yes, my dad could be described as kind of a bully with no social skills. I always thought it was because he was from a different country... that's part of it, but definite;y not all of it. Speaking of which, when he came to the US he joined the Army right away and learned to speak English there, involving many curse words and foul language that he just never let go of. He can't express himself in English without cursing. Like I said there are many more ways that he is aggressively nitpicky about things, the taco thing is one example and I don't have time for more right now. He also likes to lecture me about how I do such stupid things in life, like our recent move to a different state that he says "was stupid". He loves to talk trash bout DH too. 

 

As far as me mentioning a number of very serious issues off hand, this is my life and I don't know any different. This stuff doesn't just happen in TV or movies. And I know that people mean well when they suggest counseling. I've been in a few different forms of counseling off and on over the years but it's not as easy as people sometimes make it sound. Counseling requires time, money and childcare. As far as counseling with my dad (over video conference or whatever) he would probably laugh hard if I suggested it. He just thinks I'm a PITA and that's all there is to the "problem". This is not a person you can reason with or who really cares what you say. 

 

Anyway, thanks again everyone. I am learning about what is acceptable and what boundaries to lay down and how. It will probably be a lifelong process.