Kids with exceptionally high sleep needs...

[Dulce Domem]

I'm not really sure what I'm looking for - reassurance maybe?  Someone to tell me my kids aren't the only ones?  We have four kids - 9 1/2, 7 1/2, 5, & 3.  They have bizarrely high sleep needs compared to other kids we know.  They wake up somewhere between 6:30 & 7:30 am (maybe every few weeks will sleep till almost 8), and go to bed about 7:30 as well, give or take an hour (except Wednesdays, which are usually closer to 10 because of Bible class).  

 

Our 3 year old & 5 year old still nap daily for at least an hour and a half, but it often is closer to 3 hours or so.  

 

Our 7 1/2 year old still naps about 1/2 the time.  Always on Sundays & Wednesdays, and usually a couple other days in the week.

 

Our 9 1/2 year old naps every Sunday & Wednesday, and usually about one or two other days a week.

 

AND they go to bed early and sleep till a decent hour.  None of them (with the exception of the 5 year old) generally bounce around in bed, but usually fall right to sleep, and sleep through the night.  

 

Ways I know that they need all this extra sleep - 1)  They look like death.  Big black circles under their eyes, red, watery eyes, etc. They don't have allergies - it is strictly tied to how tired they are. 2)  They act like the world is falling apart.  They cry easily, etc.  Can't focus on their lessons, the easiest things seem insurmountable, etc.  3)  The oldest especially exhibits ADHD like symptoms - CRAZY.  4)  They sleepwalk or wet the bed if they haven't napped enough lately.

 

Seriously - there are days when we are out all day and everyone misses a nap and they are ALL in bed by 5:30 pm and sleep till 7:30 the next morning.  It happens about once a month.

 

WHY do my kids need so much sleep?  There is NO WAY they would survive in a public school setting.  Even as it is, I struggle some days with getting their lessons done or being able to spend time with them because they sleep so much.  I would really like to do a bulk of the older ones' lessons in the afternoon, but can't depend on having that time in the afternoons with them awake.  Some days my little guys wake up from naps, eat supper, then go almost immediately back to bed.  

 

In all fairness, my husband and I both have high sleep needs.  And because my husband's job requires us to be out evenings occasionally, keeping them up late, it is hard to get in a good groove.  But most days I just think it is ridiculous that my 9 1/2 year old STILL needs such regular naps.  Today he slept for 2 1/2 hours.  

 

Anyone else have really sleepy kids?  They are all exceptionally healthy and just had their well child visits, so I don't really have any health concerns (unless someone opens my eyes to something I hadn't considered before).  

 

 

[Guest]

My kids sleep like that, right down to the napping and late wake times (they get 11-12 hours a night plus a two hour nap).

 

I don't think your kids are weird, I think a whole bunch of kids are horrendously sleep deprived. Some of the behavioral issues I see in kids I know just scream 'I NEED A NAP'. There is a range of normal and it is natural some kids will fall on the far sides. Some kids do seem just fine on 8-9 hours total, but my crew likes 12-14 :)

[Dulce Domem]

Thanks Arctic Mama.  I tend to agree - especially now that I look back at many of the kids I taught when I was a teacher in the public schools.  I realize now how many of those poor kids were just plain tired.  

 

I just see all these other kids who never sleep and who seem to do great, and my kids are such a contrast.  

[Ravin]

My DD does better when she gets enough sleep. She will take a nap in the afternoon a couple of times a week. DS still naps at daycare a couple of times a week at almost 5, and they both sleep 10-11 hours a night. They get up around 7:30 AM and go to bed by 8, but DD especially will take herself to bed sooner if she's very tired.

 

She was in brick and mortar school last year and was perpetually exhausted, had migraines several days a week...her stress and anxiety were higher and her behavior was not great.

[Plagefille]

My girls both sleep like that, minus the napping. However, my almost 7 yr does need to lay down everyday for a little while. Everyone thinks it's crazy that my 11 yr old sleeps so much, but it's what she needs. My son, however, doesn't need quite as much sleep, 9 pm- 7 am.

[fraidycat]

Black circles, bed wetting, fatigue, mood = food intolerance, in my experience.

 

My first recommendation is always to try an elimination diet. If that doesn't work, then try other stuff.

[Chris in VA]

Well, 13 hours is pretty middle of the road for preschoolers, and 11-12 for a 9yr old seems normal.

 

So it's not terribly outside the norm.

 

I think it's great that you can give them enough sleep!

 

If they've been checked out I wouldn't worry, but I can imagine several health-related things that might increase a need for sleep--how much do they exercise, and is there any heart-related stuff, or reactive airways/asthma that presents like coughing, or low iron in your family?

 

I did know a family that sent their kids to bed early (6:30 or even 5:30 some nights) but they had immune deficiencies.

[magnificent_baby]

Have any of them checked for lead and anemia? Most of yours wouldn't fall into the normal age to be universally tested, but I think it's worth asking about. With the physical and behavioral symptoms, I would be more concerned. 

[greenbeanmama]

My 24-year-old sister STILL needs a lot of sleep.  If she can't get enough during the week, she'll sleep for a sixteen-hour stretch over the weekend, get up for a bit, and then head back to bed for most of the rest of the weekend.  Some people just need more sleep!

[Isabella]

I second the poster that mentioned the possibility of food intolerances.  It needn't manifest itself in typical 'allergy' symptoms, but I'd hazard a guess that the symptoms you mentioned could be reduced on a very clean diet.  I need a lot more sleep, and I'm lethargic a lot of the day when I have a higher carb diet, and my daughter (adult) has always exhibited add/adhd behaviour when eating carbs.  Also my other daughter, also adult now, suffered very quickly with black rings around her eyes with a little less sleep than usual.  We are all a heap different, and vastly improved on a grain free/dairy free/processed foods free diet.  

 

That said, I do think the majority of children need 11-12 hrs of sleep a night to be at their best, and in many countries a nap during the day is quite accepted, expected and normal for children and adults alike! In our highly westernised countries, we don't, in general, feel that it's a good way to spend our time! 

[zoobie]

One child needing a large amount of sleep wouldn't strike me as odd, but all of them plus the physical and emotional symptoms would concern me. It sounds like your mommy radar is pinging, so listen to it.

[UCF612]

My kids aren't like that. They go to bed around 8pm and wake promptly at 7am (I have tried to get them to wake later, unsuccessfully.). If they nap I know they are sick! My oldest stopped napping around 4, my youngest stopped at 2 despite my desperate attempts to keep him napping! I on the other hand require more sleep. I frequently nap in the afternoon. I also have hypothyroidism and despite having controlled thyroid function my sleep needs/fatigue never returned to my old normal.

Edited January 26, 2016 by UCF612

[Plateau Mama]

My 15 yo will put herself to bed by 8:30 if her schedule allows it and sleep until 7. She has always needed a lot of sleep.

 

My 13 fights sleeping so we won't talk about him.

 

My 7 yo is a night owl and won't go to sleep until 10 or 11 BUT he sleeps until 10 (or later) every day.

[Dulce Domem]

Black circles, bed wetting, fatigue, mood = food intolerance, in my experience.

 

My first recommendation is always to try an elimination diet. If that doesn't work, then try other stuff.

 

I've considered that, but if they have enough sleep, none of these things are an issue at all.  Wouldn't a food intolerance be exhibiting symptoms regardless of how much they are sleeping?  They ONLY wet the bed when overtired (and the older two don't wet the bed ever, just the 5 year old, and it is rare).  The older two sleepwalk, usually trying to find the bathroom but not being able to wake up sufficiently to get there.  I really, truly, don't think it's a food intolerance, but it is definitely worth thinking about and maybe trying an elimination diet for a while.  

 

Have any of them checked for lead and anemia? Most of yours wouldn't fall into the normal age to be universally tested, but I think it's worth asking about. With the physical and behavioral symptoms, I would be more concerned. 

 

They have been tested for lead at different  intervals and it was all fine (we used to live in an older home so regular lead testing was a must).  A couple of them have been tested for anemia over the years for different reasons, and they were always fine, but we haven't had that done across the board for all of them at one time.

 

 

This isn't a new trend - they were born as high sleep need babies.  When they get sufficient sleep (which just seems to be SO MUCH), they are wonderful children.  It all seems to be tied directly to their sleep.  And if plenty of sleep is what they need, then I am all for it.  But, sometimes I would like them to be awake just a (tiny!) amount longer!  

[foxbridgeacademy]

My 12 year old has always done that. She needs a lot of sleep, at least 10 often 12 hours a night, she's in bed right now and has been for a couple hours.  She's also the one who needs down time to de-stress.  DS 14, has fits and spurts where he needs 12 hours of sleep but then he'll go weeks where he can't sleep more than 6.  

[ErinE]

I don't think its outside the range of normal, but I would encourage more outside time. I've found too much indoor time and lack of sunlight (especially in the winter months) can make the entire household sleep more. 

[heartlikealion]

Hmm I don't know if a well child visit would necessarily tell you a vitamin deficiency? If that was related.

 

My 7 yr old sleeps like 11 hrs? He hasn't regularly napped since he was very young. I need a lot of sleep to feel refreshed. More than the average adult I think (9 hrs).

[need2read]

My son has always needed a lot of sleep. He pretty much slept from 6:30 to 6:30 until he was five and I had to wean him off his afternoon nap the summer before kindergarten. Now he's 14 and sleeps a good nine hours most nights and I think ten hours would be even better.

 

I think most kids today and even quite a lot of adults are sleep deprived. I need at least nine hours every day and if I don't get it I get a little nuts.

 

 

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[Tsuga]

Well, I think it does sound like your kids are on the far end for sleep needs--you're at nearly 15 hours per day for the pre-schoolers, is that correct? And for the others, upwards of 13 on average?

 

But it's not unheard of. That does sound really difficult.

[magnificent_baby]

I've considered that, but if they have enough sleep, none of these things are an issue at all.  Wouldn't a food intolerance be exhibiting symptoms regardless of how much they are sleeping?  They ONLY wet the bed when overtired (and the older two don't wet the bed ever, just the 5 year old, and it is rare).  The older two sleepwalk, usually trying to find the bathroom but not being able to wake up sufficiently to get there.  I really, truly, don't think it's a food intolerance, but it is definitely worth thinking about and maybe trying an elimination diet for a while.  

 

 

They have been tested for lead at different  intervals and it was all fine (we used to live in an older home so regular lead testing was a must).  A couple of them have been tested for anemia over the years for different reasons, and they were always fine, but we haven't had that done across the board for all of them at one time.

 

 

This isn't a new trend - they were born as high sleep need babies.  When they get sufficient sleep (which just seems to be SO MUCH), they are wonderful children.  It all seems to be tied directly to their sleep.  And if plenty of sleep is what they need, then I am all for it.  But, sometimes I would like them to be awake just a (tiny!) amount longer!  

 

Could just be more of a habit then!  Can you try to very slowly adjust their schedule if you are wanting them to be awake longer?  

[Barb_]

Look into sleep apnea. Chances are they don't all have it, but the bedwetting and sleep walking are red flags. Are any of them "active" sleepers. Do they thrash and moan and mumble? Fall out of bed? Sleep in bizarre positions? A family propensity for enlarged tonsils/adenoids can cause sleep apnea. Four of mine had it.

[J-rap]

I don't think those are bizarrely high sleep needs.  Going to sleep at 7:30pm and waking up at 6:30am is 11 hours.  When my kids were young, they'd often go to sleep around 8pm and wake up at 7am, so that's 11 hours too.  Now, my kids didn't take 3 hour naps, although one of them could have.  My husband's side of the family needs more sleep.  I don't now why.  On a Saturday, my nephews on that side would actually sleep all day long until someone woke them.  Our kids who take after my side get up by around 7:30am even if they have time to sleep all morning.  They just can't sleep any later.  So, something genetic, but I don't know what.  My daughter who most takes after my husband probably could sleep all day.  She says waking up is the hardest thing she does all day, and she feels like she's not fully awake till around noon every day.  

 

About the black circles.  Do you know for certain it's not allergies?  Have they been tested?  You don't always show signs of allergies with a runny nose, etc.  One of my daughters has allergies that only appears as lethargy and sometimes wheezing, but always the dark circles under her eyes.  (When it's really bad, it turns into full-blown asthma, but I think far before then her breathing is compromised though no one can tell, it's so subtle.)  She never has itchy eyes, runny nose, etc.  Just the dark circles and lethargy.  Her biggest trigger is dust and dank places.

[KungFuPanda]

According to WebMD, the OPs kids have normal sleep needs. I suspect most families are just chronically sleep deprived.

 

http://www.webmd.com/parenting/guide/sleep-children?page=2

[sbgrace]

This thread has actually been reassuring.

My 11 year olds sleep about 11 hours, give or take 1/2 hour. I have been frustrated by this as I don't see how regular schooled kids can possibly get that much sleep, with activities often running past 8 here.

 

FWIW, one of mine did have sleep apnea. Treating did lower his sleep needs to closer to his brother's range, but it still feels like a lot. He was a snorer.

[heartlikealion]

According to WebMD, the OPs kids have normal sleep needs. I suspect most families are just chronically sleep deprived.

 

http://www.webmd.com/parenting/guide/sleep-children?page=2

I had looked that up, too, but it doesn't mesh with the sleep schedules if the kids are sleeping that much AND napping on top of that. At least, with the child my son's age.

 

Edited: Nevermind, the bolded said a max of 11, but the paragraph said up to 12 hours total.

Edited January 26, 2016 by heartlikealion

[KungFuPanda]

I'm an adult and my body prefers 9 hours, so I don't think it's weird that a growing kid would need 12. DH can function happily with 6 hours. He gets this whole other life, but if I try to keep up I crash after a day or so. MIL said he always slept much less than her other 3 boys. He has a brother that needed so much sleep he'd put himself to bed early as a preschooler. The range of normal is wide.

[theelfqueen]

Have you ever read the book "Sleepless in America" .... really thought provoking on the topic of prioritizing sleep-needs for children.

[abba12]

I don't think you're the weird one. I think a LOT of kids are overtired. Heck, I think a lot of adults are overtired!

 

I remember right up until I was 10 or 11, I went to bed at 8:30 and woke up around 7am. As a teen I went to bed at 10pm, woke up at 7am, and often napped for an hour in the afternoon.

 

I can only compare with the younger two, but my 5yo and 3yo go to bed about 7:30 and wake up around 6:30, so 11 hours. The middle one naps a couple of times a week and the older one naps occasionally, though honestly I think they could both do with a nap because after 2pm they're terribly cranky, they just wont because they'd rather play and I stopped enforcing it. 

 

As an adult, I generally sleep a full 8 hour night (though 9 hours leaves me feeling considerably better in the mornings) and I nap any afternoon I'm able to. 

 

I wonder how many people who 'cant get going in the morning' or 'need their coffee' are actually just chronically sleep deprived. 

[MEmama]

Mine still needs 12 hours to be at his best. At your younger kids ages and until he was maybe 8, he would go to bed (sleep) right after dinner, at 6:30. It's later than that now, but the 11-12 hours holds firm. I see allowing enough sleep as a huge perk to homeschooling, and can imagine that it will be lack of sleep more than anything else that would be tough for him if he decides to go to public high school. Even though the later sleep in times right now mess with our schedule some, I'm a huge advocate for getting enough and honestly believe most people are sleep deprived.

 

I wouldn't worry about it too much if they've been checked out and tested, especially since it sounds like it runs in the family. What does the doctor say? Was he concerned? However, I'm also a big believer in listening to our mama instincts, so if yours is high alert I think it's important to listen.

[Faithful_Steward]

I have one child who was like this and she has hypothyroidism and vitamin D deficiency. Her main symptoms were excessive fatigue, dark circles under her eyes, and stomach pain. Obviously this is unlikely to apply to you since ALL of your kids are like this, but I do think it is a bit odd. Do you have a family history of autoimmune disorders? DD's suffered for years before she was diagnosed. They just don't look for those things in little children.

[Joyofsixreboot]

Several of my kids are like that and I like sleep too. My 14 yo sleeps whenever he can. He can fall asleep on a 10 minute car ride. I think that when kids are physically active (so they can fall asleep) and are allowed to sleep that this is actually normal.

[Mrs. Y]

That ALL of them need this much sleep would be concerning to me.

 

At our house anyone who sleeps that much is sick. Not saying your dc are sick, but that would be alarming to me if all of my dc would consistently sleep that much.

Edited January 26, 2016 by Colleen OH

[Mrs. Y]

Do you have a carbon monoxide detector in your home?  Your post has me wondering if it's possible that you have some sort of low level gas leak or CO thing going on.

 

Maybe it is all normal and good, but it seems off that your dc get that much sleep and then exhibit physical symptoms of sleep deprivation if they aren't caught up with the excessive amount of sleep they normally get.

[RootAnn]

My older two have always been high sleep-need kids. They both napped regularly (1-2 hrs/day) past 5 yrs old. The oldest doesn't get as much as she needs now, IMO, and is almost perpetually crabby unless I let her sleep in on a regular basis. (I don't. I try to get her to bed at a decent hour, but that doesn't work as well when your kid is high school aged.)

 

My dd#2 puts herself to bed between 7 and 8 p.m. She's up between 6 & 7, but DH & I were told that she shouldn't need this much sleep. She does. If she is consistently kept up later, she naps to make up the sleep deficit.

 

My other three have somewhat 'normal' sleep needs except for dd#3. DD#3 is one of those kids who stopped taking naps completely at 18 months unless she's sick. She doesn't seem to need as much sleep as the rest of us, but that's DH as well. I'm a high-sleep-need person. I definitely need 9-10 hours of sleep on a regular basis.

[Dulce Domem]

Just realized that I never replied to this thread and thanked everyone for all of your responses!!  I read all of them and am considering several points.  It's been like this through 4 houses now, so I don't think it's environmental (CO2 for example).  But it's nice to know that maybe we are just on the far end of the normal scale!  

 

But really, thank you all for commenting.  =)

[gardenmom5]

black circles is usually WHEAT/gluten allergies.  have you tried removing it from their diets?   that's really the only way to tell - short of doing blood work that looks specifically at inflamation/sensitivity levels.

 

the sleep it self wouldn't worry me too much  - I had a couple that slept a lot as kids.  1dd couldn't stay up late to save her life, even as a tween.

[Dulce Domem]

black circles is usually WHEAT/gluten allergies.  have you tried removing it from their diets?   that's really the only way to tell - short of doing blood work that looks specifically at inflamation/sensitivity levels.

 

the sleep it self wouldn't worry me too much  - I had a couple that slept a lot as kids.  1dd couldn't stay up late to save her life, even as a tween.

 

 

 

My husband & I are planning to do a whole 30 next month, so I will cut gluten for the kids then as well and see if it changes anything.  The thing that gets me is that the black circles completely disappear if they are sleeping these massive amounts of sleep.  It is ONLY when they aren't getting their regular sleep that they have dark circles.  If it were gluten related, would it necessarily change based on how much they are sleeping?

 

I'll see next month!

[OlgaLA]

I had dark circles often as a kid, and I don't have allergies, but do need higher than average sleep. I only started feeling human on 8 hours of sleep in the last couple of years. One thing that actually helped me not to feel totally exhausted was getting sufficient exercise regularly. Other than that, if there are no other health problems, let them sleep.

[fraidycat]

My husband & I are planning to do a whole 30 next month, so I will cut gluten for the kids then as well and see if it changes anything. The thing that gets me is that the black circles completely disappear if they are sleeping these massive amounts of sleep. It is ONLY when they aren't getting their regular sleep that they have dark circles. If it were gluten related, would it necessarily change based on how much they are sleeping?

 

I'll see next month!

Maybe. One of my first symptoms of being "glutened" is extreme fatigue. Like, barely keep my eyes open tired within 15 to 20 minutes of eating. I KNOW this. But, I forget it too when I'm good about my diet. A couple weeks ago, we were in the middle of moving/packing/cleaning so my hubby just grabbed Little Caesars for lunch one Saturday. I took my enzymes and activated charcoal to try to mitigate the digestive symptoms of eating it. I ate and continued on with packing, then about 20 minutes later sat down, absolutely exhausted with a sudden sinusy headache and mentioned needing a nap and how weird because I had plenty of sleep, I thought. My sweet DH just chuckled at me and said "Got glutened, huh?" LOL Then it dawned on me...oh yeah - wheat = fatigue.

[BooksandBoys]

My husband & I are planning to do a whole 30 next month, so I will cut gluten for the kids then as well and see if it changes anything. The thing that gets me is that the black circles completely disappear if they are sleeping these massive amounts of sleep. It is ONLY when they aren't getting their regular sleep that they have dark circles. If it were gluten related, would it necessarily change based on how much they are sleeping?

 

I'll see next month!

Not necessarily. I am wheat intolerant and have been gluten free for 4 years due to this. My lifelong sleep need dropped dramatically (from 10 hours a night as an adult to 8, less if I'm eating low carb) when I cut out gluten. Before that, I was like your kids with sleep: I looked normal if I got enough sleep and looked and felt exhausted (dark circles, no energy, cranky, headaches) if I only got 8 hours of sleep.

 

For what it's worth, I consider my oldest a high sleep need kid too, but he doesn't sleep quite as much as you're describing. At almost 8, he generally sleeps about 10 hours a night, sometimes 11. DS2 averages 10 hours at age 4, DS3, age 2, sleeps about 14 hours total.

[Scarlett]

According to WebMD, the OPs kids have normal sleep needs. I suspect most families are just chronically sleep deprived.

 

http://www.webmd.com/parenting/guide/sleep-children?page=2

Yes. It is one of my biggest beefs with public schools....no way for kids to get enough sleep.

 

My son is almost 16 and although he thinks he doesn't need it he does still need 10 hours of sleep. He often gets less and I am letting him have more control over that but I do point out that lack of sleep makes him highly cranky and emotional.

[T'smom]

Yes. It is one of my biggest beefs with public schools....no way for kids to get enough sleep.

 

My son is almost 16 and although he thinks he doesn't need it he does still need 10 hours of sleep. He often gets less and I am letting him have more control over that but I do point out that lack of sleep makes him highly cranky and emotional.

I do believe that one of the pluses of having my kids at home is that they can sleep. However, they don't. They don't go to sleep for a long time (we go to bed at 8) and then they get up by 6. My first 2 kids gave up naps almost to the day of their 2nd birthday. If I put them down for a nap, they would be up until 2 or 3 am. If they went to sleep at all- usually they would just play in their bed for an hour or so until I gave up and got them out! My youngest isn't quite 2 yet and he's already starting the "if I take a nap, I'm not going to bed" thing. My oldest, and worst sleeper, is an emotional mess most of the time. But I cannot figure out how to get him to sleep more. I have tried melatonin and it does make him go to sleep faster- perhaps one hour instead of three. But then he is up super early. This morning I found him awake at 4:30 because I was sick and got up to get some medicine from the kitchen. I walked by his room and could hear him playing beyblades. If anyone has suggestions- I would love to hear them! Yesterday he timed himself as he jumped continuously on the trampoline for 1 hour. If that doesn't wear him out, what will?!?!?!