Thanksgiving shopping protests

[SKL]

I don't mean to say I saw crazy behavior on Black Friday.  But the stores were dirty, disorganized, shelves empty, crap all over the floor, and it felt like nobody cared about anything.  I am old school - I want shopping to be an "experience" at some level.  I miss the warm lights and colors, muted tones, inviting displays, and feeling like you are welcome to take time to look around and get inspired.

 

I guess my kids will never know what Christmas shopping could feel like if it were managed well.

[shawthorne44]

I remember one year going through the drive-thru pre-Thanksgiving at Jack-in-the-Box and seeing the Open Thanksgiving sign.  I felt sorry for the employees.  Then Thanksgiving late afternoon, I was once again in the drive-thru.  I do love those Breakfast Jacks.  I was a little ashamed when I realized I was part of the problem.  So, I can understand people boycotting shopping on Thanksgiving.  

 

I am old enough to remember before Walmart and Target had groceries.  I remember one year when I forgot something essential for Thanksgiving, so I found myself driving around looking for a grocery store that morning.  I eventually found one and it was PACKED.   It was one grocery store serving an area of about 100K people.  At least on that day.  The next year I noticed that a great many grocery stores were open, and they were all empty.  I've watched it pendulum back and forth.  

 

I think general retail is the same way.  If only a few stores are open, they do lots of business and it is very worth it for them.  If no one shopped on Thanksgiving, then the stores wouldn't be open.  It is silly to have a general boycott of anyplace that is open on Thanksgiving.  

[Arcadia]

I am old school - I want shopping to be an "experience" at some level. I miss the warm lights and colors, muted tones, inviting displays, and feeling like you are welcome to take time to look around and get inspired.

Nordstrom is nice for that kind of experience. My mom when she was here would sit at the plush chairs, listen to someone playing the grand piano in the store, then get a latte at the cafe in the store. Besides the ladies lounge (restroom) is lovely with comfortable sofa, nice baby diaper changing area and spacious overall.

[Bluegoat]

There can be both.  Plenty of people are part of several different grassroots movements and feel strongly and take action on a number of different topics.  One does not rule out or take away from the other.  We can all do more than one thing.  And this particular issue only comes up once a year, so it is getting a lot of focus right now.  Then it goes back in its box until next year.

 

:iagree:

 

I think, too,  they re really interconnected issues.  Predictable time off where people can participate in public (and in this case, secular) holidays is very much connected to worker's rights more generally.  If retail and food service workers were usually unionized effectively, it might be  very different discussion.  But they aren't, and in fact unions are under widespread attack in the US.

 

I don't really understand the argument that individuals should restrict themselves from shopping on those days but not make any wider kind of fuss or call to action.  You could say the same bout minimum wages or any other worker's legislation like mandated breaks or even safety.  Someone else might not care if employees in a store get crap wages, but that doesn't men I shouldn't make  fuss bout it.

[Reefgazer]

You can still get that if you avoid the big box stores and not-so-big-box chains.

I don't mean to say I saw crazy behavior on Black Friday.  But the stores were dirty, disorganized, shelves empty, crap all over the floor, and it felt like nobody cared about anything.  I am old school - I want shopping to be an "experience" at some level.  I miss the warm lights and colors, muted tones, inviting displays, and feeling like you are welcome to take time to look around and get inspired.

 

I guess my kids will never know what Christmas shopping could feel like if it were managed well.

 

Edited November 24, 2015 by reefgazer

[Slojo]

I'm seeing all the posts on facebook from various people saying they are boycotting Thanksgiving shopping.  It seems people are upset that retailers are making their employees work.  Most of the stores around here aren't opening until 6 p.m.  I'm not sure what the hours are in other cities.  I know the Target employees I talked to last year said they did not mind working on Thanksgiving and said they were getting overtime and holiday pay.  They seemed genuinely happy.  Also, a lot of them got hired on to do the seasonal work and purposely signed on to work just for the holiday season.  Why is everyone so upset about Thanksgiving shopping and emailing retailers to complain?  Will you shop on Thanksgiving?  What if you forgot dinner or potatoes rolls?  Will you skip going to the grocery store- just out of principle?            

I'd bet the employees would be more grateful if their employer just gave them a paid holiday off. It's not that the employee is "so into the holiday spirit that they want to make all of those consumers chomping at the bit happy customers on Thanksgiving day, and come in an work."  It's the money -- and I guess I just think that the vast majority of big box stores could afford to give them a day (yes, even paid). Really.

[Jean in Newcastle]

Nordstrom is nice for that kind of experience. My mom when she was here would sit at the plush chairs, listen to someone playing the grand piano in the store, then get a latte at the cafe in the store. Besides the ladies lounge (restroom) is lovely with comfortable sofa, nice baby diaper changing area and spacious overall.

I go to Nordies so that I can pee to jazz music. 

[OH_Homeschooler]

Small Business Saturday. :) Supporting small businesses on the Saturday after Thanksgiving. Notice it's Saturday, not Thanksgiving day, so you won't be supporting the trend of being open on Thanksgiving or the Black Friday madness. :)

 

 

And I still have a reusable grocery bag I was given on Small Business Saturday a couple years ago. 

[Guest]

I go to Nordies so that I can pee to jazz music.

I used to go to Nordstroms just to nurse my baby in that awesome lounge.

[vonfirmath]

FYI I don't work retail, and my employer has made it VERY clear that the Friday is not a paid holiday here. We can choose to use one of our vacation days to take off that day. Or we can come in and work. it is a regular day like any other day. 

[Guest]

I'd bet the employees would be more grateful if their employer just gave them a paid holiday off. It's not that the employee is "so into the holiday spirit that they want to make all of those consumers chomping at the bit happy customers on Thanksgiving day, and come in an work." It's the money -- and I guess I just think that the vast majority of big box stores could afford to give them a day (yes, even paid). Really.

That's absurd. Really. For one thing, they would be paying ALL the employees on the payroll, not just the employees who would otherwise either loathe or be delighted to work that day. Additionally, the manager of the local big box cannot simply decide to be open (or closed) on that day, nor can an individal store manager just decide to pay everyone for not working. Franchises have rules.

[Garga]

My dh worked at Toys R Us for 7 years. His salary paid for his college. (Something unheard of today, but that's for another thread.)

 

He worked there from 1986-1993 and has crystal clear memories of Black Friday: people storming the store, working early, working late.

 

So, it's been a thing since 1986. But when the stores started opening earlier and earlier, I think that's when it snowballed even more. When DH was at Toys R Us, they'd open an hour or two early. But now they'll open so early that it's the night before (Thanksgiving.)

 

Until I met my DH, I'd never heard of Black Friday for myself, but my parents don't do a lot of shopping so it wasn't on our radar. And we didn't have a lot of friends. So...I often didn't hear about many things growing up.

[stephanier.1765]

I actually met my husband while working Thanksgiving day. To help with finances during my college years, I managed a movie theater and working Thanksgiving was a given. My dh was a new sailor in town with no family near by so he and his friends went to the movies to pass the time. And as they say, " the rest was history."

[regentrude]

Small Business Saturday. :) Supporting small businesses on the Saturday after Thanksgiving.

 

I like the idea of shopping small local businesses... in theory.

In practice, not a single (small or large) business in our town carries any item I wish to give as a Christmas present.

[HomeAgain]

I like the idea of shopping small local businesses... in theory.

In practice, not a single (small or large) business in our town carries any item I wish to give as a Christmas present.

 

It is actually backwards here.  The big-box stores are run down, the mall is falling apart, but there's no incentive to keep them up because we are the "big city" for the even smaller towns in all directions.  This is it. 

 

However, we have some real gems in small businesses.  Toy stores that carry real toys!  Not fake "learning" toys or giant plastic action figures.  We have a general store with lovely pieces from all over the world and especially locally made.  We have candy makers, tea stores, and a small coffee factory.  I love shopping them all when I can. :)

[Jenny in Florida]

 Will you shop on Thanksgiving?  What if you forgot dinner or potatoes rolls?  Will you skip going to the grocery store- just out of principle?            

 

We make a distinction between "I forgot to buy cinnamon, so I'll go to Walgreens and grab that" and "Woo-hoo! Let's participate in rampant consumerism by frantically acquiring more stuff none of us need at deep discount prices that we could just as easily buy any other day of the year without making people who already don't make a lot of money and have few choices about whether to work or be with their families that day spend the day catering to us."

 

I do make an effort to give my business to stores that choose not to participate in the encroachment of black Friday into Thanksgiving.

[redsquirrel]

For the past couple years, my regular grocery store, Wegmans, is only open from midnight Thursday until 10am. They say it is specifically so their employees can be home celebrating with family.  They open at some point after midnight on Friday.  Last year they were closed on Christmas day as well.

 

My other regular grocery store, the co-op, is closed on all regular holidays, so it's never open on Thanksgiving.

 

I have no idea if Wegmans is closed this year on Thanksgiving. I planned it out so I haven't been in there since last week. I shouldn't have to go back until next week.

[unsinkable]

I actually met my husband while working Thanksgiving day. To help with finances during my college years, I managed a movie theater and working Thanksgiving was a given. My dh was a new sailor in town with no family near by so he and his friends went to the movies to pass the time. And as they say, " the rest was history."

Hey, sailor!

 

:lol:

[marbel]

I like the idea of shopping small local businesses... in theory.

In practice, not a single (small or large) business in our town carries any item I wish to give as a Christmas present.

 

Similar though not quite the same here.  It's just so expensive.   I do try, when I can. 

 

[Slojo]

That's absurd. Really. For one thing, they would be paying ALL the employees on the payroll, not just the employees who would otherwise either loathe or be delighted to work that day. Additionally, the manager of the local big box cannot simply decide to be open (or closed) on that day, nor can an individal store manager just decide to pay everyone for not working. Franchises have rules.

Why is that absurd? Please explain it to me. Honestly, there are many companies that could actually just make less money, but we have a predominant business model that runs on maximizing shareholder profits over all else. That is not the only conceivable economic model to run on. I get that it's not common, but "absurd" is uncalled for. REI is doing that very thing -- paying every one of its 12,000 workers to take Black Friday off. We'll see if it works (they are getting my business this year just on principle), but there is no reason why it shouldn't or couldn't. They have a great line, and have figured out how to build a loyal customer base. Maybe more companies should experiment...  Of course, such a decision would have to come from the CEO level (not the franchise level -- please credit me with just a little bit of a brain). You will never get me to believe that the profits over people/neverending growth and expansion model is the highest and best economic model conceivable by humanity. Call me a dreamer... but one day the planet may depend on such absurd ideas actually being actualized at scale.

[Guest]

Why is that absurd? Please explain it to me. Honestly, there are many companies that could actually just make less money, but we have a predominant business model that runs on maximizing shareholder profits over all else. That is not the only conceivable economic model to run on. I get that it's not common, but "absurd" is uncalled for. REI is doing that very thing -- paying every one of its 12,000 workers to take Black Friday off. We'll see if it works (they are getting my business this year just on principle), but there is no reason why it shouldn't or couldn't. They have a great line, and have figured out how to build a loyal customer base. Maybe more companies should experiment... Of course, such a decision would have to come from the CEO level (not the franchise level -- please credit me with just a little bit of a brain). You will never get me to believe that the profits over people/neverending growth and expansion model is the highest and best economic model conceivable by humanity. Call me a dreamer... but one day the planet may depend on such absurd ideas actually being actualized at scale.

Because a company like Kohls, or Target, or Regal Cinemas doesn't exist to employ people and help them earn money. It exists to make a profit. I am fully in favor of treating workers well and if a company such as REI can come up with a workable model to give everyone a free day's pay, well then that is wonderful of them. But I don't think big companies should or need to give free days of pay to their workforce.

 

As an parallel, my husband and I have rental properties. I strive to provide a decent living place at a normal rate and make every efffort to be accommodating of special circumstances. But suppose someone said, "Why is this house for rent at $1300/month? Do you need every penny of that rental rate? Couldn't the rate be $1100? After all, this renter is in a tight spot and did not have all the advantages you have had in life. Do you really need that additional $200/month? Couldn't you get by charging less rent?" Yes, we could get by charging less rent. But we are not landlords in order to give people a place to live really cheaply. We charge a rate that turns a profit and is comparable to other similar rentals in the area. So following a model that is based on the local market makes sense.

 

Besides that, the very big companies employ so many millions of people, it does strike me as absurd. I do think it is absurd to suggest that Walmart should spend a billion dollars paying employees to not work on TG. That would be a giant loss for no benefit.

 

Also, when Walmart (and some other retailers) started having TG open, the goal was to stop having people trampled to death at 5:00am Black Friday. So in essence, Walmart et al. opened on TG in response to the overconsumptive attitudes of the public. When people are so desparate to get a $200 laptop that they literally crush a security guard to death, it is the response of the retailers to make it less of a build-up and you do that by having the store open and the "deals" available over several days. So I find it an ironic backlash that people are now "protesting" stores being open on TG because it fuels consumeristic views, yet it is only because of consumerism that more days to access sales were necessary to begin with.

[Slojo]

Because a company like Kohls, or Target, or Regal Cinemas doesn't exist to employ people and help them earn money. It exists to make a profit. I am fully in favor of treating workers well and if a company such as REI can come up with a workable model to give everyone a free day's pay, well then that is wonderful of them. But I don't think big companies should or need to give free days of pay to their workforce.

 

As an parallel, my husband and I have rental properties. I strive to provide a decent living place at a normal rate and make every efffort to be accommodating of special circumstances. But suppose someone said, "Why is this house for rent at $1300/month? Do you need every penny of that rental rate? Couldn't the rate be $1100? After all, this renter is in a tight spot and did not have all the advantages you have had in life. Do you really need that additional $200/month? Couldn't you get by charging less rent?" Yes, we could get by charging less rent. But we are not landlords in order to give people a place to live really cheaply. We charge a rate that turns a profit and is comparable to other similar rentals in the area. So following a model that is based on the local market makes sense.

 

Besides that, the very big companies employ so many millions of people, it does strike me as absurd. I do think it is absurd to suggest that Walmart should spend a billion dollars paying employees to not work on TG. That would be a giant loss for no benefit.

 

Also, when Walmart (and some other retailers) started having TG open, the goal was to stop having people trampled to death at 5:00am Black Friday. So in essence, Walmart et al. opened on TG in response to the overconsumptive attitudes of the public. When people are so desparate to get a $200 laptop that they literally crush a security guard to death, it is the response of the retailers to make it less of a build-up and you do that by having the store open and the "deals" available over several days. So I find it an ironic backlash that people are now "protesting" stores being open on TG because it fuels consumeristic views, yet it is only because of consumerism that more days to access sales were necessary to begin with.

That's a chicken and egg argument - what fuels consumerist behavior? The idea that you can buy anything at any time -- you act as if big box stores are really innocents in all of this, just barely doing their best to keep the masses at some kind of rational bay. As if they don't have big advertising budgets to lure customers in.  Really, they could make those deals available any number of random days without tying it to Thanksgiving or the day after, or just have every day be "deal day." I'm questioning the system itself, and challenging the notion that the ONLY reason any business should exist is to maximize profits. There is no cosmic rule that says it has to be so. I'm not suggesting no profit, just that every decision doesn't have to be about maximizing profits. 

 

And, on the rental end -- eh, I don't know, if you truly are not "losing money" -- your expenses are covered and you have a margin, why not offer the rent at $1100?  You don't have to, but what would be the harm? Yep, there are reasons to maximize your profits, but no rule that you have to. This is not a "business is evil rant" but, no, I don't get the maximize profits above all else mantra -- shrug. Seems like there are plenty of companies and/or individuals that could decide to just make a bit less money (not vows of poverty), just less money to pursue all kinds of good ends. You still haven't explained why such an idea would be absurd in and of itself, just why you wouldn't want to do it. There are lots of things that we have collectively (through direct choices or by default) decided we don't want to do as a society (e.g., decide to wipe out homelessness, for instance), but that doesn't make them absurd. 

[gardenmom5]

I won't be out there. But, I won't be out there the entire weekend. Too crazy with traffic for my blood. I'll just sit in my house and eat pie.

 

The only person I know who will be working, at a walmart btw, is thrilled to death about it. He is so overly exuberant about getting holiday pay at his remarkably high wage (honestly, he started at $11 and is past $15 now without the holiday extra/he keeps getting promotions/not bad for a college kid/I'm surprised he's still attending class) for a retail job he has only held since this summer is almost funny.

 

why?  that's less than starting pay for a decent college degree with no experience. employers will reward good workers who are also dependable.

[MeghansMom]

My DH has nine days off from his main job. His second job, he will be working eighty hours. We are hoping to pay for the damn bed bugs in full and Christmas.

 

We will be together on Thanksgiving until 4pm. He will work open to close the day before and the day after.

 

We need the money and are thankful for it.

[Tsuga]

I believe in paid holidays and I've boycotted for it before.

 

I don't shop at places that are open on the main national holidays that children have off school.

 

Employees need overtime but many spend it on daycare or kids spend holidays without their families.

 

I think there should be mandatory paid holidays. See who wants the hours then. And yes, I realize that essential services like hospitals and prisons will have people working. Indeed, a good portion of my family is working in essential services. But first, they are paid a full living wage with a pension and have a union and have benefits and triple-time on holiday.

 

 

 

 I don't see that level of outrage for the kid taking tickets at the movie theater. Or for the wait staff working at the restaurant where you decided to have thanksgiving instead of cooking. Or the supermarket being open because you forgot something.

 

I don't see any outrage, just simply, "Well it's about time, that was ridiculous." The exception is for restaurants because they serve many old and lonely people and I think they serve a greater social purpose than immediate gratification.

[mamiof5]

No. I try my best not to shop that whole weekend. I don't like shopping and won't do it around Thanksgiving. I don't see anything bad with it, if done properly. But, the fact that people have gotten hurt/trampled etc over material stuff just makes me sick to my stomach. The madness has gotten out of control several times, and maybe a boycott wouldn't be a bad thing. If everyone could shop peacefully and respectfully, great. But I get the impression that's not always the case :(

[mommaduck]

My casual observation is that the people making the overtime are happy and the upper middle class people who have never worked on thanksgiving are outraged on their behalf. Also, the nurses and theater employees are rolling their eyes. I don't like to shop, so I don't have a dog in this fight.

I'm not a holiday shopper, but my job relies on people going out and traveling. Thanksgiving isn't time and a half for us, but the other major holidays are. Please tip your waitresses well ;) For many of us, this is paying the bills, not buying Christmas.

[Guest]

That's a chicken and egg argument - what fuels consumerist behavior? The idea that you can buy anything at any time -- you act as if big box stores are really innocents in all of this, just barely doing their best to keep the masses at some kind of rational bay. As if they don't have big advertising budgets to lure customers in. Really, they could make those deals available any number of random days without tying it to Thanksgiving or the day after, or just have every day be "deal day." I'm questioning the system itself, and challenging the notion that the ONLY reason any business should exist is to maximize profits. There is no cosmic rule that says it has to be so. I'm not suggesting no profit, just that every decision doesn't have to be about maximizing profits.

 

And, on the rental end -- eh, I don't know, if you truly are not "losing money" -- your expenses are covered and you have a margin, why not offer the rent at $1100? You don't have to, but what would be the harm? Yep, there are reasons to maximize your profits, but no rule that you have to. This is not a "business is evil rant" but, no, I don't get the maximize profits above all else mantra -- shrug. Seems like there are plenty of companies and/or individuals that could decide to just make a bit less money (not vows of poverty), just less money to pursue all kinds of good ends. You still haven't explained why such an idea would be absurd in and of itself, just why you wouldn't want to do it. There are lots of things that we have collectively (through direct choices or by default) decided we don't want to do as a society (e.g., decide to wipe out homelessness, for instance), but that doesn't make them absurd.

Because it is equally logical to ask. where is the bottom? We have forgone income to pay off a couple of those rentals; we own them outright. So as far as actual expenses we must cover, it is small. but there is no reason to offer it at an unusually low rate. We would just be opening up ourselves to aplicants who are less qualified and who require more work to sort backgrounds and select. So it goes back to what I already said. It isn't our mission to offer a rental so cheaply anyone can live there. We have those rentals to bring in our own income to pay for our own Christmas and college educations and electric bills. So we do what is normal for the market and we charge a rent that is comparable with others in the market.

[Bluegoat]

I like the idea of shopping small local businesses... in theory.

In practice, not a single (small or large) business in our town carries any item I wish to give as a Christmas present.

 

Is your town very small?  I've had more luck in small towns with things like Christmas church bazaars or buying directly from the producer.  But I think even supporting small artists and craftsmen through buying from them online is n improvement over the big corporate stores.

[Lisbeth]

I see a big difference between a run to the grocery store (after all, with everybody preparing a holiday meal, one might run out of ingredients) and shopping for shoes.

I will not shop on Thanksgiving (or, for that matter, on Black Friday), because I detest the underlying materialistic attitude of society. Most of us have way too much stuff. I hate the push to buy, buy, buy.

I can see the need for open grocery stores and pharmacies, but beyond this? We really can't manage one day without shopping for more stuff in this country?

 

(ETA:I come from a country where all stores are closed every Sunday, and we somehow survive.)

 

2nd ETA: I love REI's announcement that they opt out of the craziness.

I love that the stores are closed on Sundays where you are from! The unending buy, advertise, go, go, go here is getting ridiculous.

[Bluegoat]

Because a company like Kohls, or Target, or Regal Cinemas doesn't exist to employ people and help them earn money. It exists to make a profit. I am fully in favor of treating workers well and if a company such as REI can come up with a workable model to give everyone a free day's pay, well then that is wonderful of them. But I don't think big companies should or need to give free days of pay to their workforce.

 

As an parallel, my husband and I have rental properties. I strive to provide a decent living place at a normal rate and make every efffort to be accommodating of special circumstances. But suppose someone said, "Why is this house for rent at $1300/month? Do you need every penny of that rental rate? Couldn't the rate be $1100? After all, this renter is in a tight spot and did not have all the advantages you have had in life. Do you really need that additional $200/month? Couldn't you get by charging less rent?" Yes, we could get by charging less rent. But we are not landlords in order to give people a place to live really cheaply. We charge a rate that turns a profit and is comparable to other similar rentals in the area. So following a model that is based on the local market makes sense.

 

Besides that, the very big companies employ so many millions of people, it does strike me as absurd. I do think it is absurd to suggest that Walmart should spend a billion dollars paying employees to not work on TG. That would be a giant loss for no benefit.

 

Also, when Walmart (and some other retailers) started having TG open, the goal was to stop having people trampled to death at 5:00am Black Friday. So in essence, Walmart et al. opened on TG in response to the overconsumptive attitudes of the public. When people are so desparate to get a $200 laptop that they literally crush a security guard to death, it is the response of the retailers to make it less of a build-up and you do that by having the store open and the "deals" available over several days. So I find it an ironic backlash that people are now "protesting" stores being open on TG because it fuels consumeristic views, yet it is only because of consumerism that more days to access sales were necessary to begin with.

 

You re taking for granted n economic model that is increasingly showing us that it is not sustainable in the long term, or even just stable in the short term.  and - it isn't even the only one available.

 

There have been times in history where profit above what is required to live was considered morally suspect. There re reasons (inflation in particular) that is more difficult to make work today, but this idea that it is obvious to say business exists to make profit needs to be overcome.   It is not live, it is an inanimate entity. 

 

Business exists to allow people to live - yes, the owners, but also the people who use its product or service, and its employees if there re any.  This is why we allow the state to use our resources to support business - not to allow some kind of inanimate legal structure to acquire profits.  If the employees are not coming out ahead, then the business is a failure.  It is always  temptation for business owners to try and increase their share though - perhaps by gouging the customer, or perhaps by stealing the work of the employees, or not acknowledging their human needs. 

 

 

[Lisbeth]

No. I try my best not to shop that whole weekend. I don't like shopping and won't do it around Thanksgiving. I don't see anything bad with it, if done properly. But, the fact that people have gotten hurt/trampled etc over material stuff just makes me sick to my stomach. The madness has gotten out of control several times, and maybe a boycott wouldn't be a bad thing. If everyone could shop peacefully and respectfully, great. But I get the impression that's not always the case :(

I feel the same. I make it a point now to refuse to participate in Black Friday or the 4 days or so now making up "Black Friday."

[Dmmetler]

I think a better way to handle is is paid holidays-taken when the employee chooses. DH worked for a small software company that did this-and since they had a mix of Jewish, Christian, and H1B employees (many who are Hindu or Moslem), and a mix of single adults and adults with children, it was fairly easy to have 365 day a year staffing. If you want to take a week-long trip, it's kind of nice to be able to bundle some of those floating days together and have it paid, and if you had paid vacation, you could take more time.

 

When the company was acquired by a larger company, they made a big deal about "14 paid holidays"-and then had to ask for volunteers to work and pay extra to get people to work the same days they'd been working-because now the Jewish Employee had to take vacation time to take off the High Holy Days-and, justifiably, was much less willing to work Christmas.

[Slojo]

Because it is equally logical to ask. where is the bottom? We have forgone income to pay off a couple of those rentals; we own them outright. So as far as actual expenses we must cover, it is small. but there is no reason to offer it at an unusually low rate. We would just be opening up ourselves to aplicants who are less qualified and who require more work to sort backgrounds and select. So it goes back to what I already said. It isn't our mission to offer a rental so cheaply anyone can live there. We have those rentals to bring in our own income to pay for our own Christmas and college educations and electric bills. So we do what is normal for the market and we charge a rent that is comparable with others in the market.

 

So the bottom for you is that which would allow you to pay for Christmas and college education and electric bills. Those, in my opinion, are all reasonable things to put money towards (one supports basic needs, one supports providing a robust education to your children, and the other supports a reasonable "comfort" in life). If that's $1300 for you, that's great! I have no problem with that. But choosing a number lower than that still isn't absurd - I have yet to hear the argument for that articulated. And perhaps you're backing off from the use of absurd -- I don't know, my family inherited my grandmother's house, and actually does charge below market rent to our current tenant for it. Not the same as owning several businesses, but I think the general principal holds if one could swing it. 

 

As to less qualified candidates -- umm, okay. Maybe. I guess. There's an awful lot of really great people among those "less qualified" folks. At some point in the rental market probably more work (yep, poor and working class folk can be "more work", but honestly, I think they have the far greater burden in dealing with "the middle and upper middle class" who view them as "work" - but I digress). But the idea is still not absurd -- sounds a little bit classist, particularly when we are talking in our hypothetical scenario about a difference of $200 in rent. Again, I repeat, nothing wrong with the $1300 -- and my aim is really not to pick on you personally, I'm just playing out the scenario you proposed and not seeing why an alternative way of thinking couldn't easily apply here. 

[shawthorne44]

I love that the stores are closed on Sundays where you are from! The unending buy, advertise, go, go, go here is getting ridiculous.

 

I still have vivid memories of my mother complaining endlessly about the Blue Laws as they were called.   Stores couldn't open on Sundays, except for grocery stores.  Even then grocery stores couldn't sell everything.  Like you could buy a hammer but not nails. (my memory is fuzzy)  This was in the 70's and both my parents worked.  Mom had to get all shopping done on Saturdays and it was very stressful for her.  Even after the law was repealed we always did MOST of the shopping on Saturdays, but knowing that something could be picked up on a Sunday lowered the stress level.  

[Guest]

I think a better way to handle is is paid holidays-taken when the employee chooses. DH worked for a small software company that did this-and since they had a mix of Jewish, Christian, and H1B employees (many who are Hindu or Moslem), and a mix of single adults and adults with children, it was fairly easy to have 365 day a year staffing. If you want to take a week-long trip, it's kind of nice to be able to bundle some of those floating days together and have it paid, and if you had paid vacation, you could take more time.

 

When the company was acquired by a larger company, they made a big deal about "14 paid holidays"-and then had to ask for volunteers to work and pay extra to get people to work the same days they'd been working-because now the Jewish Employee had to take vacation time to take off the High Holy Days-and, justifiably, was much less willing to work Christmas.

 

That's the ticket.

[mamiof5]

I feel the same. I make it a point now to refuse to participate in Black Friday or the 4 days or so now making up "Black Friday."

So glad I'm not the only one!!! And, if you think about it, the entire month of November has become a shopping spree. Not only black Friday, preblack Friday sakes are at least a couple weeks before. Don't get me wrong, I am a bargain shopper and do like a good deal, but thankfully I can find that well before Thanksgiving, and just enjoy my shopless Thanksgiving weekend :). Have the most wonderful Thanksgiving!!

[vonfirmath]

why?  that's less than starting pay for a decent college degree with no experience. employers will reward good workers who are also dependable.

 

??? My husband has a Masters in Math and hasn't been able to get a starting pay job over $13/hr. And we were thankful for that.

[gardenmom5]

??? My husband has a Masters in Math and hasn't been able to get a starting pay job over $13/hr. And we were thankful for that.

 

different areas have different wages.  here - that's a starting wage for a high school diploma.

 

Edited November 26, 2015 by gardenmom5

[TammyS]

I see a big difference between a run to the grocery store (after all, with everybody preparing a holiday meal, one might run out of ingredients) and shopping for shoes.

 

I don't really see the difference at all.  So, you run out of an ingredient?  Live without it.  You don't "need" it.  Especially on TG, when you've got a ton of food going.  You only want it.  Some people want to shop for shoes.

[Guest]

You re taking for granted n economic model that is increasingly showing us that it is not sustainable in the long term, or even just stable in the short term. and - it isn't even the only one available.

 

There have been times in history where profit above what is required to live was considered morally suspect. There re reasons (inflation in particular) that is more difficult to make work today, but this idea that it is obvious to say business exists to make profit needs to be overcome. It is not live, it is an inanimate entity.

 

Business exists to allow people to live - yes, the owners, but also the people who use its product or service, and its employees if there re any. This is why we allow the state to use our resources to support business - not to allow some kind of inanimate legal structure to acquire profits. If the employees are not coming out ahead, then the business is a failure. It is always temptation for business owners to try and increase their share though - perhaps by gouging the customer, or perhaps by stealing the work of the employees, or not acknowledging their human needs.

 

 

But, Bluegoat, don't you think "profit above what one needs" is a nebulous concept? That is what I meant by saying where is the bottom. I have one son in a private school, for instance. It is a luxury, not a need. But it is a high priority for us. If we simply could not afford it, he could go to public school. So is that saying our income is above what we truly need? In reality, we live in extravagant luxury compared to many people in the world, so does that mean we should not have multiple cars or clothes or a pantry full of food choices?

 

As I said, I am fully in favor of treating employees as worthy human beings and don't want anyone to be abusively used. But the overall idea that businesses are bad if they are open on a holiday or if they seek to bring a strong profit really chaps my hide.

 

Bill Gates could give a computer to every child in the country at this point. Does that mean he should?

[Guest]

So the bottom for you is that which would allow you to pay for Christmas and college education and electric bills. Those, in my opinion, are all reasonable things to put money towards (one supports basic needs, one supports providing a robust education to your children, and the other supports a reasonable "comfort" in life). If that's $1300 for you, that's great! I have no problem with that. But choosing a number lower than that still isn't absurd - I have yet to hear the argument for that articulated. And perhaps you're backing off from the use of absurd -- I don't know, my family inherited my grandmother's house, and actually does charge below market rent to our current tenant for it. Not the same as owning several businesses, but I think the general principal holds if one could swing it.

 

As to less qualified candidates -- umm, okay. Maybe. I guess. There's an awful lot of really great people among those "less qualified" folks. At some point in the rental market probably more work (yep, poor and working class folk can be "more work", but honestly, I think they have the far greater burden in dealing with "the middle and upper middle class" who view them as "work" - but I digress). But the idea is still not absurd -- sounds a little bit classist, particularly when we are talking in our hypothetical scenario about a difference of $200 in rent. Again, I repeat, nothing wrong with the $1300 -- and my aim is really not to pick on you personally, I'm just playing out the scenario you proposed and not seeing why an alternative way of thinking couldn't easily apply here.

It sounds classist to you, but I am speaking from experience. I'm sure there are great folks among those less qualified folks, but I have rented to the not-such-great-folks before. Do you realize that every potential tenant is work, before they are even tenants? There is simply no reason to offer a rental for a below-market rate and have a deluge of people saying they are interested. It would mean more piles of applicants to wade through. And it still comes back to the same idea for me - what benefit does it even serve? After a while, the rent they pay is just the rent they pay.

 

Which is what I believe would also be true if a million Target employees got a paid TG day at home. The first year, it would be, "Woweee! I don't have to work TG and I am earning a payday as well! Target is awesome!" But soon, that would just be the expectation of what Target employees get and someone can start wondering why they don't get a paid break for New Year's Day as well.

[Guest]

I don't really see the difference at all. So, you run out of an ingredient? Live without it. You don't "need" it. Especially on TG, when you've got a ton of food going. You only want it. Some people want to shop for shoes.

HaHa, that's because you are not making pies to take over my SIL's house. ;)

[Guest]

If we are voting on whether or not Bill Gates should give me a computer, I vote yes :laugh:

[Guest]

If we are voting on whether or not Bill Gates should give me a computer, I vote yes :laugh:

No, I distinctly said "child." Are you a child? You don't qualify for the Gates Free Computers for Kids program. :D

[Guest]

No, I distinctly said "child." Are you a child? You don't qualify for the Gates Free Computers for Kids program. :D

 

I GET THREE NEW COMPUTERS, in that case!! Cause, yanno,, my house my rules etc etc etc

 

This is the best, BEST idea Quill! :lol:

[Arcadia]

If we are voting on whether or not Bill Gates should give me a computer, I vote yes :laugh:

I want a solar powered one though that is not running Windows. When we were at Microsoft store trying out Surface Pro 4, four out of six demo pens were not working.

 

My district is buying chromebooks to replace the older laptops for the teachers.

[Arcadia]

HaHa, that's because you are not making pies to take over my SIL's house. ;)

Walgreens is open and less costly than 7Eleven for people who run out of sugar, eggs or milk.

 

The 24/7 Safeway across the street is going to be open from 6am to 6pm for tomorrow, closing at 5pm tonight. The non-24/7 Safeway will be closed. We do have many asian supermarkets who will be business as usual.

[mommaduck]

Our town's only all night pharmacy has decided to close at night now :( Pretty much we have a couple of gas stations, Walmart, hotels, and Waffle House open all night. That's it. It makes it difficult for those of us that NEED to work midnights.

[Hikin' Mama]

It sounds classist to you, but I am speaking from experience. I'm sure there are great folks among those less qualified folks, but I have rented to the not-such-great-folks before. Do you realize that every potential tenant is work, before they are even tenants? There is simply no reason to offer a rental for a below-market rate and have a deluge of people saying they are interested. It would mean more piles of applicants to wade through. And it still comes back to the same idea for me - what benefit does it even serve? After a while, the rent they pay is just the rent they pay.

 

Which is what I believe would also be true if a million Target employees got a paid TG day at home. The first year, it would be, "Woweee! I don't have to work TG and I am earning a payday as well! Target is awesome!" But soon, that would just be the expectation of what Target employees get and someone can start wondering why they don't get a paid break for New Year's Day as well.

 

I so agree with you on this. We own a couple rentals and don't make a profit on them, but that is because they are on property we bought for agricultural use, where we do make a profit (usually, but not always) and there happened to be a house there. My husband rents them to employees for dirt cheap, because he's a softy that way.

 

BUT I equate this whole thing to one's paycheck. Who is going to willingly take a smaller salary just because they already have "enough." I mean you (general you) don't really "need" smartphones for everyone in the family, so take a $ 200/ month pay cut and give it to someone that needs it to pay the market rate of rent. It always seems like business owners are bad for expecting the going rate, but workers are praised for getting more and making more. Business owners work, too, and not all of them are making tons of money. I'm not talking about huge corporations. And a little secret for non-business owners...sometimes people who "look" really wealthy are just really up to their eyeballs in debt. Many of the others who are business owners/entrepeneurs are driving inexpensive used cars and buying clothes at the thrift store, not because they have to, but because they are putting much of what they make back into their entrepreneurial efforts, because that is how business grows.

Edited November 26, 2015 by Hikin' Mama