Just curious....should a Christian buy a lottery ticket?

[DawnM]

Our church doesn't want tithed money that was earned from gambling. Playing the lottery is gambling. So, no to buying lottery tickets.

 

 

But, but, that is how Oral Roberts got to live another 23 years!

 

God told him if he didn't raise $8M, he would die!

 

That was 1986.  Dog track betting brought in the money!

 

Perhaps your church should re-think.

[Bluegoat]

This stand always amazes me because farming is a bigger gamble... more invested... potentially more lost when the seasons don't work out.  I've known farmers who have lost their farm when they've had some bad weather years or other things happen out of their control.  Yet churches don't mind tithes from them...

 

But I'm weird.

 

I also wonder why churches put out donuts every Sunday morning when it's pretty much a given that they're not much different than cigarettes health-wise.  Smoking is a "sin," but here, clog your arteries with these!

 

And as others have pointed out - gambling isn't ever listed as a sin in the Bible.  It's a man-made aversion very similar to the teetotaling one.

 

Gambling isn't mainly about a result being beyond your control in the same way that weather is beyond your control.  Farmers work to produce something, they put in labour and seed or feed and care. They are hoping to produce food for themselves or others.  If you pay them, you are getting a product or possibly a service in return.

 

Gambling is about putting in nothing and hoping for a return from others.

 

Things don't have to be listed in the Bible by name to be a sin.

[marbel]

Yeah, I'm having a hard time seeing a connection between farming and playing the lottery.  :-)

 

Good thing most farmers aren't saying "hey, this gig is no better than playing the lottery!  Wonder if I can buy tickets with the seed corn."

 

And churches who don't want gambling money shouldn't take farm money?  WTH?

 

Did I miss a joke?

 

 

[J-rap]

I don't have a big problem with the lottery, though I've never taken part.  I think it's all in the attitude.  I would never blink an eye at someone else who played the lottery.  I think of it as a form of entertainment, generally no better or no worse than a lot of types of entertainment.  (Though of course it has the potential of luring someone who will waste too much money on it, just like a lot of other things.)

 

But really, the stock market is a gamble too.  And it seems like credit cards are far more likely to bring a person to ruins financially.  I use both of those.

[Mimm]

I never have, not because I'm a Christian, but because I'm confused by the whole process and don't care enough to figure it out. There are all these types of tickets and games and I wouldn't know what to ask for.

 

My inlaws buy a few whenever the jackpot gets really big, just for funsies. They are the most financially responsible people I know. They aren't wasting money they can't spare. They consider it a form of entertainment, basically. Like someone who never gambles but budgets a couple hundred dollars into their vacation budget to hit a casino.

[Bluegoat]

I don't have a big problem with the lottery, though I've never taken part.  I think it's all in the attitude.  I would never blink an eye at someone else who played the lottery.  I think of it as a form of entertainment, generally no better or no worse than a lot of types of entertainment.  (Though of course it has the potential of luring someone who will waste too much money on it, just like a lot of other things.)

 

But really, the stock market is a gamble too.  And it seems like credit cards are far more likely to bring a person to ruins financially.  I use both of those.

 

Some people would  say that the stock market can be immoral in the same way gambling can be.  Currency speculation is a good example, or trading that intends to just move money around quickly rather than acting as an investment.

 

In other cases though, investing money on the stock market is like buying into a business.

 

Credit cards are seen by some as usurious, on the part of the CC company.

[Scarlett]

This stand always amazes me because farming is a bigger gamble... more invested... potentially more lost when the seasons don't work out. I've known farmers who have lost their farm when they've had some bad weather years or other things happen out of their control. Yet churches don't mind tithes from them...

 

But I'm weird.

 

I also wonder why churches put out donuts every Sunday morning when it's pretty much a given that they're not much different than cigarettes health-wise. Smoking is a "sin," but here, clog your arteries with these!

 

And as others have pointed out - gambling isn't ever listed as a sin in the Bible. It's a man-made aversion very similar to the teetotaling one.

Farming is not a gamble ONLY. There is a lot of hard work involved. Sure time and unforeseen occurrence can wipe out hard work....this applies to more areas of life than farming....but it isn't like gambling which is essentially an attempt to get something for nothing. That is the principle on which I base my decision to never gamble.

[SKL]

Buying one ticket for fun is just entertainment.  There are worse ways we spend fun money.

 

I think the sin is in being attached to the outcome, which can lead to making self-destructive and family-destructive choices over the long term.

 

If a system depends on this kind of harm, then I could see arguing that even buying one ticket is encouraging something that is sinful.

 

I've probably bought less than 10 lottery tickets in my life, so I don't spend a lot of time worrying about it.  I do vote against gambling when it comes up for vote (and I lose).

[Scarlett]

I have had a few tricky situations in my life.....volunteer fire department selling raffle tickets to buy a new fire truck or whatever.....I benefit greatly from their hard work....so when they come around I give them money but don't take the ticket.

 

Or the time a co workers child was involved in an accident that devastated the family financially. Our employer donated a product and a raffle was organized for her benefit. I bought tickets and gave the tickets to my co worker.

[Hikin' Mama]

I think Creek was trying to be funny with the farming thing, but I'm guessing she also speaks from experience. So do I. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose. Although I've done better there than at the horse races. ;)

[Joanne]

Curious, why pro-gambling antI-lottery? The odds?

 

Bill

 

The odds, the culture/socio-economics of regular purchasers and how states exploit that, the actual way lottery monies are allocated and spent vs. how they are marketed to vulnverables.

[TranquilMind]

This came up in convo the other day and I was surprised at the varying opinions and reactions. 

 

Should a Christian buy a lottery ticket or is it sin?  or is it one of those Biblically gray areas? 

 

I'm not asking whether it is a wise use of resources.  At a 1 to 200,000,000 odds I think that is pretty clear  :lol:

In general, I do not think it is a wise use of money.  We have done it a couple of times over the years just for fun, and when the jackpot was hundreds of millions of dollars!  Alas, no winnings. 

[Holly]

My DH is a pastor and buys an occasional ticket.  ;)  Personally, I think it's a waste of money, but I agree that, even as Christians, we misuse a great deal of money on a variety of things.  I'm pretty sure God doesn't feel we need to spend money at the hair or nail salons, buy brand name clothes or food, have the latest car, biggest house, etc.  Yet many people don't think of these things as being ungodly either.  

 

Personally, I don't lump lotto tickets (or raffles) into the same category as gambling.  I guess I see how it could become addictive, but I haven't personally witnessed anyone addicted to it.  

 

 

 

 

[vonfirmath]

I can't find it now, but will post if I do - I remember reading something by a pastor saying it's wrong because the people who buy the bulk of lottery tickets, and thus provide the funds for the jackpots, are overwhelmingly the people who don't have spare money to gamble, and are in many cases actually pinning their hopes on winning (iow it's not a fun thing for them).   So those multi-million dollar winners are getting rich off the backs of the poor.  I was never a lottery player before that anyway.

 

I do have a family member who used to buy lots of tickets when she could ill afford to.  It wasn't a gambling addiction; it was hope of winning. She never did.

 

This is generally the reason I vote against having state lotteries, etc. 

[HS Mom in NC]

This stand always amazes me because farming is a bigger gamble... more invested... potentially more lost when the seasons don't work out.  I've known farmers who have lost their farm when they've had some bad weather years or other things happen out of their control.  Yet churches don't mind tithes from them...

 

 

This is nonsense.  Sorry, but most of humanity has lived in agrarian societies and provided fairly reasonably for their families.  I'm not a statistician, but if the odds of successfully farming the way humanity has for thousands of years is a bigger gamble than the likelihood of winning the lottery, humanity would've died out a long time ago. There are all kinds of agrarian metaphors and imagery in the Bible because it was a very familiar part of most people's experience at the time.

 

You'll need to come up with a better comparison to make your point.  And yes, I agree that there are other risky things people do to make money.  Just about any business owner (like my husband the software contractor/consultant) takes risks and makes investments with no guarantee of return.  The fact that something is risky can't, in and of itself, make it immoral. If it did, then any participation in the stock market would be immoral, participating in a clinical trial would be immoral, starting a business would be immoral, inventing something would be immoral, and so on.

[HS Mom in NC]

Oops!  dp.  Sorry.

 

[Bluegoat]

I think Creek was trying to be funny with the farming thing, but I'm guessing she also speaks from experience. So do I. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose. Although I've done better there than at the horse races. ;)

 

 

i am sure she wasn't entirely serious either, but I think the underlying idea that the problem with gambling is that the outcome is unsure is a common error. 

 

I have had a few tricky situations in my life.....volunteer fire department selling raffle tickets to buy a new fire truck or whatever.....I benefit greatly from their hard work....so when they come around I give them money but don't take the ticket.

 

Or the time a co workers child was involved in an accident that devastated the family financially. Our employer donated a product and a raffle was organized for her benefit. I bought tickets and gave the tickets to my co worker.

 

The thing with raffles, to my mind, is that the motivations of the people who are buying the tickets really aren't about gambling.  They might think it would be nice to win, but they are not counting on it - they are really making a donation, which is a completely different psychological state than hoping to get a return  you haven't worked for, or giving up money you can ill afford in hopes of solving your money problems.  And it doesn't involve exploiting other people who are giving away money they really shouldn't either - someone has typically also donated the prize.

[HS Mom in NC]

Haha! I think this way, too. Actually, I think credit cards can become for some a terrible vice, but I don't think I've ever heard a sermon that addresses credit card debt.

 

The wings of fundamentalist and evangelical have been consistently anti-debt (not counting a house or car since they're secured loans as long as they're within a reasonable budget) from the pulpit on a regular basis. Dave Ramsey and Crown Financial Ministries resources are popular with them.  Now here's the weird part, some, certainly not all, are very tolerant of high levels of church debt when it comes to their facilities.  I have to scratch my head and wonder how that disconnect happens. It's a sharp contrast to the churches I've been a part of in my adult years who rent school gymnasiums and community centers so they can avoid any and all debt.

 

[vonfirmath]

The wings of fundamentalist and evangelical have been consistently anti-debt (not counting a house or car since they're secured loans as long as they're within a reasonable budget) from the pulpit on a regular basis. Dave Ramsey and Crown Financial Ministries resources are popular with them.  Now here's the weird part, some, certainly not all, are very tolerant of high levels of church debt when it comes to their facilities.  I have to scratch my head and wonder how that disconnect happens. It's a sharp contrast to the churches I've been a part of in my adult years who rent school gymnasiums and community centers so they can avoid any and all debt.

 

 

You haven't been to the business meetings to find that $s on the balance sheets is not everything? I know our church is aggressively attacking the debt on the new building, and has paid off over 2 years of it in less than a year. And everytime it comes up a possibility of even thinking about borrowing money, its a big fight that usually ends up as a No, in the end.  (the one exception was buying a property that came up for sale in our immediate vicinity -- houses that have turned over to commercial zoned so may not be sold again at all. And at that, we bought it and then paid off again in less than a year with the proceeds of ridding ourselves of a property that is farther afield -- our old Missions house. (The close property is becoming the new Mission House). So despite having a debt on the books, I would not consider the church body at all tolerant of debt in the church.

[creekland]

Gambling isn't mainly about a result being beyond your control in the same way that weather is beyond your control.  Farmers work to produce something, they put in labour and seed or feed and care. They are hoping to produce food for themselves or others.  If you pay them, you are getting a product or possibly a service in return.

 

Gambling is about putting in nothing and hoping for a return from others.

 

Things don't have to be listed in the Bible by name to be a sin.

 

Money is put into gambling.  

 

The farming hyperbole comes from talking with farmers after a couple of bad years... they gambled with which crops to put in - and lost.  Farming as a business is totally different than the subsistence farming of Bible days.

 

The stock market is probably better as an analogy, but still... life is a gamble.

 

The odds, of course, are different!

 

 

Farming is not a gamble ONLY. There is a lot of hard work involved. Sure time and unforeseen occurrence can wipe out hard work....this applies to more areas of life than farming....but it isn't like gambling which is essentially an attempt to get something for nothing. That is the principle on which I base my decision to never gamble.

 

As mentioned above... the stock market is probably a better analogy.  Buy stock.  Do nothing.  Hope for a return from others.

 

I think Creek was trying to be funny with the farming thing, but I'm guessing she also speaks from experience. So do I. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose. Although I've done better there than at the horse races. ;)

 

Yes... Creek often uses humor and hyperbole in her posts.  Sometimes folks "catch" that and sometimes they don't.  Oh well.  We all win some and lose some, right?

 

But it's also true that many farmers I know (rural area for my upbringing and where we live now) consider modern farming to be a gamble - which crops - weather, etc.  They love their gambling job, but some end up not making it...  Some even buy lottery tickets!  But they don't hold their breath waiting for that win.  There is a definite difference in odds.

[goldberry]

I used to be a yes, then became a no.

 

What swayed me is where the money comes from.  Sweepstakes, etc, come from a company usually who is trying to get advertising or whatever.  Lottery money comes from other people, some of whom may be causing serious problems for themselves and/or families by doing so.  My personal conscience says that I am participating in a system that is harmful to some of the people involved, and that if I won the money (ever) it would be money from those people.  ETA, along with the concept of getting something for nothing not being a very positive one.

 

*sigh*  I like lottery.

[Guest]

The wings of fundamentalist and evangelical have been consistently anti-debt (not counting a house or car since they're secured loans as long as they're within a reasonable budget) from the pulpit on a regular basis. Dave Ramsey and Crown Financial Ministries resources are popular with them. Now here's the weird part, some, certainly not all, are very tolerant of high levels of church debt when it comes to their facilities. I have to scratch my head and wonder how that disconnect happens. It's a sharp contrast to the churches I've been a part of in my adult years who rent school gymnasiums and community centers so they can avoid any and all debt.

 

I know there are pockets of anti-debt thinking in religion, and I know Ramsey and Crown Finanical well, but I haven't heard sermons about it...ever? Just as everyone knows gluttony is a sin, but I haven't ever heard *that* sermon. I think some topics are too loaded for the majority of pastors and credit card debt is one such topic.

[HS Mom in NC]

I know there are pockets of anti-debt thinking in religion, and I know Ramsey and Crown Finanical well, but I haven't heard sermons about it...ever? Just as everyone knows gluttony is a sin, but I haven't ever heard *that* sermon. I think some topics are too loaded for the majority of pastors and credit card debt is one such topic.

 

I've never heard a sermon on gluttony either now that you mention it.  I have heard a sermon about taking care of your body, against greed and lack of self control but gluttony has never been specifically mentioned as an aspect of those things. 

[HS Mom in NC]

When it comes to the question of lotteries as a method of raising tax revenue, it's hard to be upset when people voluntarily choose to do it with a slim to none chance of winning money back.  Um, OK.  No one is forcing anyone to do it, and like plenty of other vices, I take political issue with telling adults they can't do something just because other people abuse it or use it self-destructively. If you're spending your extremely limited funds foolishly, well, so are a lot of people.  What can anyone do other than shrug their shoulders?  Think of all those people with decent incomes up to their eyeballs in debt with no retirement savings because they want bigger houses, larger wardrobes, the latest gadgets, eating out, vacations, and such. If I get upset at poor people for freely making poor financial choices with the limited funds they have, aren't I obligated to be just as morally indignant  with moderate and high income earners making poor financial choices with their funds? And if I do, aren't I just a big PIA?  At what point do I need to tell myself other people's financial habits are none of my business? 

[mommaduck]

I think of it as gambling, so no. And as far as drinking...Jesus' first public miracle was transforming water in wine at the wedding in Cana...I would hope it's okay in moderation.

Moderation is key for many things. I was raised where my stepfather taught us spades for the mental exercise, but we weren't allowed to tell grandma. Grandma considered playing cards as equal to gambling, regardless if one was gambling or not.

[Tsuga]

I know there are pockets of anti-debt thinking in religion, and I know Ramsey and Crown Finanical well, but I haven't heard sermons about it...ever? Just as everyone knows gluttony is a sin, but I haven't ever heard *that* sermon. I think some topics are too loaded for the majority of pastors and credit card debt is one such topic.

I have heard sermons about both of those and I was only a Christian 15 years. I'm surprised you haven't. Credit cards and gluttony were regular topics of discussion on the Baptist, Russian Orthodox, and Catholic Churches I attended.

[Carrie12345]

Sometimes I forget how differently people define "Christian".

 

I have participated in my fair share of church bingo games and tricky tray/raffles.  

 

[Word Nerd]

When it comes to the question of lotteries as a method of raising tax revenue, it's hard to be upset when people voluntarily choose to do it with a slim to none chance of winning money back.  Um, OK.  No one is forcing anyone to do it, and like plenty of other vices, I take political issue with telling adults they can't do something just because other people abuse it or use it self-destructively. If you're spending your extremely limited funds foolishly, well, so are a lot of people.  What can anyone do other than shrug their shoulders?  Think of all those people with decent incomes up to their eyeballs in debt with no retirement savings because they want bigger houses, larger wardrobes, the latest gadgets, eating out, vacations, and such. If I get upset at poor people for freely making poor financial choices with the limited funds they have, aren't I obligated to be just as morally indignant  with moderate and high income earners making poor financial choices with their funds? And if I do, aren't I just a big PIA?  At what point do I need to tell myself other people's financial habits are none of my business? 

 

I agree. Several of the posts in this thread are pretty condescending, as if all the lottery ticket buyers are feeble-minded children.

[HSmomof2]

I have heard sermons about both of those and I was only a Christian 15 years. I'm surprised you haven't. Credit cards and gluttony were regular topics of discussion on the Baptist, Russian Orthodox, and Catholic Churches I attended.

Me, too. I've heard both over the years in Lutheran, Baptist, and non-denominational churches.

[Slojo]

Gambling, no. And it is very poor stewardship of money I could invest or spend on something much better.

 

Not a salvation issue.

Question - several people stated that gambling is not a salvation issue (with which I agree), but that wasn't really the question. The question was more was it a sin issue. So my question is what "sins" are salvation issues for you? I would say no sins are ultimately salvation issues because God provided a path for covering all sins. So perhaps with the exception of totally rejecting salvation, what "sin" would you associate with associate with being a "salvation issue?" Or am I reading this wrong?   

 

I see this as a stewardship issue and as a justice issue (lotteries primarily preying on the poor), and as such a Christian concerned with wanting to "act in accordance with God's will" is probably better off leaving the lottery alone. I'm liberal-leaning in my Christian faith, so it's less about it being a "sin" issue as it is about being an issue in which one would say to oneself, "Is playing the lottery the best way for me to relate to God's highest purpose for me, and, in this case, how I spend my money?" or "Given the role the lottery plays in preying on the lives of the poor in this country, does it honor God to participate in it?" It's a matter of, yeah, you CAN, but SHOULD you as someone who takes their faith seriously, for me.

 

I have never heard someone say the lottery is immoral. Did not know this issue existed. I'm actually surprised! I don't personally find the lottery or gambling fun but I don't have a moral problem with them.

I grew up in a "avoid drinkin', gamblin' and druggin'" kind of religious context. Lots of "this is the marker of real Christians" commentary around it, and unfortunately, in a community that has historically been more devastated than most by the communal effects of "drinkin', gamblin' and druggin' ", there was also a fair amount of unhealthy relating to these vices - as in, "Well, I'm not 'sposed to _______________," sneaking off and doing it anyway kind of thing. Not with everyone, but in that way that can happen when there are high social sanctions against a behavior but little actual support for dealing with the complexities and contradictions of human behavior, especially within a context of oppression. Aspects of it remind me of some conservative circles and premarital sex, and how you can't even really be honest that the behaviors are more complex than acknowledged. 

 

Haha! I think this way, too. Actually, I think credit cards can become for some a terrible vice, but I don't think I've ever heard a sermon that addresses credit card debt.

Actually my pastor did a great series on both credit card debt and unhealthy eating habits in the US. He even opened up the sermon saying, "I know some of y'all going tweet, Rev just flipped his lid - he delivered a sermon about food." One of the lead musicians is actually a talented song writer, with a touch of humor, and the song just before the sermon was an original arrangement with the lyrics like "I know you have plans to prosper me, but how can you do that... if I have clogged arteries..." "To you I surrender my all my praise, but can I also surrender my plate?"  It was a humorous, gentle, but thought-provoking introduction to a wide-ranging sermon about the effects of unhealthy eating, an obesity crisis in the black community, food deserts, and food justice. I'm not doing the song justice, but  both the song and the sermon were actually a very thought provoking. 

[mom31257]

When it comes to the question of lotteries as a method of raising tax revenue, it's hard to be upset when people voluntarily choose to do it with a slim to none chance of winning money back. Um, OK. No one is forcing anyone to do it, and like plenty of other vices, I take political issue with telling adults they can't do something just because other people abuse it or use it self-destructively. If you're spending your extremely limited funds foolishly, well, so are a lot of people. What can anyone do other than shrug their shoulders? Think of all those people with decent incomes up to their eyeballs in debt with no retirement savings because they want bigger houses, larger wardrobes, the latest gadgets, eating out, vacations, and such. If I get upset at poor people for freely making poor financial choices with the limited funds they have, aren't I obligated to be just as morally indignant with moderate and high income earners making poor financial choices with their funds? And if I do, aren't I just a big PIA? At what point do I need to tell myself other people's financial habits are none of my business?

I feel anything oppressing the poor shouldn't receive my support. I think most Christians saw it as gambling and were opposed to it until the state's started using lotteries to help pay for college. I feel they bought many Christians' support. The Bible is fairly clear about how we should treat the poor. While it does speak to the evils of the love of money, I don't think our focus toward the choices of the wealthy should be the same.

[HS Mom in NC]

I feel anything oppressing the poor shouldn't receive my support. I think most Christians saw it as gambling and were opposed to it until the state's started using lotteries to help pay for college. I feel they bought many Christians' support. The Bible is fairly clear about how we should treat the poor. While it does speak to the evils of the love of money, I don't think our focus toward the choices of the wealthy should be the same.

 

We clearly have very different views on what constitutes oppression.  How exactly is allowing someone who voluntarily buys a $1 ticket oppressive?

 

[Guest]

When it comes to the question of lotteries as a method of raising tax revenue, it's hard to be upset when people voluntarily choose to do it with a slim to none chance of winning money back. Um, OK. No one is forcing anyone to do it, and like plenty of other vices, I take political issue with telling adults they can't do something just because other people abuse it or use it self-destructively. If you're spending your extremely limited funds foolishly, well, so are a lot of people. What can anyone do other than shrug their shoulders? Think of all those people with decent incomes up to their eyeballs in debt with no retirement savings because they want bigger houses, larger wardrobes, the latest gadgets, eating out, vacations, and such. If I get upset at poor people for freely making poor financial choices with the limited funds they have, aren't I obligated to be just as morally indignant with moderate and high income earners making poor financial choices with their funds? And if I do, aren't I just a big PIA? At what point do I need to tell myself other people's financial habits are none of my business?

I was thinking this, too. I had real life to attend to today and wasn't reading this thread super closely, but I have heard my mother call lotteries a "poor tax," as if poor people are automatically such imbeciles that we must protect them from their stupidity because otherwise, they will flush away their few dollars on lottery wishful thinking. What?

 

I mean, I think it's kind of stupid to pay twice as much for an Underarmour sweatshirt when it is otherwise exactly the same as the Champion sweatshirt right beside it for half the price. But hey! Some people think it's worth it to have that ugly giant logo in the middle of their chest so...not my money, not my problem. :D

[mom31257]

We clearly have very different views on what constitutes oppression. How exactly is allowing someone who voluntarily buys a $1 ticket oppressive?

 

I believe it takes advantage of many poor people's lack of good money management skills and their desire to get rich quick. Many poor spend far more than $1.

 

In our state, the lottery scholarships are merit based, so a lot of the money is going to the best students who would statistically come from families who aren't poor. Why should a Christian want poor people to pay for their own children's education?

 

This was addressed to Christians, so I feel that anything taking advantage of the poor for my gain would be oppression.

 

Here are some statistics and info on predatory gambling.

 

http://stoppredatorygambling.org/blog/category/research-center/lotteries-who-really-plays/

[Scarlett]

I was thinking this, too. I had real life to attend to today and wasn't reading this thread super closely, but I have heard my mother call lotteries a "poor tax," as if poor people are automatically such imbeciles that we must protect them from their stupidity because otherwise, they will flush away their few dollars on lottery wishful thinking. What?

 

I mean, I think it's kind of stupid to pay twice as much for an Underarmour sweatshirt when it is otherwise exactly the same as the Champion sweatshirt right beside it for half the price. But hey! Some people think it's worth it to have that ugly giant logo in the middle of their chest so...not my money, not my problem. :D

 

 

Right.  I don't gamble on principle.  For myself. Not to save the world.  Or anyone.  

[Meriwether]

The wings of fundamentalist and evangelical have been consistently anti-debt (not counting a house or car since they're secured loans as long as they're within a reasonable budget) from the pulpit on a regular basis. Dave Ramsey and Crown Financial Ministries resources are popular with them.  Now here's the weird part, some, certainly not all, are very tolerant of high levels of church debt when it comes to their facilities.  I have to scratch my head and wonder how that disconnect happens. It's a sharp contrast to the churches I've been a part of in my adult years who rent school gymnasiums and community centers so they can avoid any and all debt.

 

 

 

Haha! I think this way, too. Actually, I think credit cards can become for some a terrible vice, but I don't think I've ever heard a sermon that addresses credit card debt.

Our church advises against credit card debt. Financial responsibility is important. The church seeks to model this. They want to built at a new location sometime. They are saving the money so that they will have 100% paid for when they start. I will not attend a church that has fund drives to build. When a church gets in debt, there is often a tendency to coerce money that people haven't decided on their own to give.

[Seasider]

I was thinking this, too. I had real life to attend to today and wasn't reading this thread super closely, but I have heard my mother call lotteries a "poor tax," as if poor people are automatically such imbeciles that we must protect them from their stupidity because otherwise, they will flush away their few dollars on lottery wishful thinking. What?

 

I mean, I think it's kind of stupid to pay twice as much for an Underarmour sweatshirt when it is otherwise exactly the same as the Champion sweatshirt right beside it for half the price. But hey! Some people think it's worth it to have that ugly giant logo in the middle of their chest so...not my money, not my problem. :D

I can only answer for myself, but if the effect of poor spending were only felt by the person doing the spending, that would be one thing. Unfortunately, what often occurs is the person responsible for family support (feeding, clothing, housing dependents, primarily children) takes essential funds to the lottery window instead of the grocery store. At the risk of hyperbole, I'll say I abstain from the lottery because what money I might win represents money for food *not* being spent on feeding kids. I'm sure y'all can poke holes in my logic, but that's how I stand convicted on the matter.

[creekland]

I don't see any money I spend on the lottery (or horses or dogs) as taking away money from the poor.  Everyone else out there who is buying a ticket will buy it whether I buy mine or not.  Many I know who buy tickets certainly aren't poor.

 

I see it (more or less) as giving money to decent causes.  Those causes could be what our state uses lottery money on (that tax bit) or donating to the dreams (ice cream or boats) of those who win.  With horse and dog racing, it also helps keep those sports alive - and I enjoy those sports, so want to keep them alive.

 

We won't ever win major amounts (we do get ice cream sometimes) - I know this - odds are pretty much the same as zero, but even if we did, I definitely wouldn't feel guilty.  It'd be a chance for us to help oodles of worthwhile causes we'd like to help more.  Considering that when we play it's for entertainment, this part is pretty well worked out.   :coolgleamA:   We donate to our favorite causes now (education, health care, travel opportunities, & a few others).  We'd be able to do it quite a bit more.  If anyone didn't want our donation, that's ok.  I'm sure others would.

[marbel]

I can only answer for myself, but if the effect of poor spending were only felt by the person doing the spending, that would be one thing. Unfortunately, what often occurs is the person responsible for family support (feeding, clothing, housing dependents, primarily children) takes essential funds to the lottery window instead of the grocery store. At the risk of hyperbole, I'll say I abstain from the lottery because what money I might win represents money for food *not* being spent on feeding kids. I'm sure y'all can poke holes in my logic, but that's how I stand convicted on the matter.

 

I won't poke holes in your logic.  I agree with you.

 

I looked up the PA lottery.  Net revenue (after all expenses including paying out prizes) for fiscal YTD ending 6/30/15 was 27.7% of total game sales.  That to me is a small percentage of money actually going to the charities (and I don't know if all that goes to the charities).  But maybe I'm reading it wrong, or maybe ~30% is a good return overall.  Here's a statement from the lottery website:

 

The Pennsylvania Lottery remains the only state lottery that designates all its proceeds to programs that benefit older residents. In fiscal year 2013-14, the Lottery achieved sales of $3.8 billion; contributions to the Lottery Fund totaled more than $1 billion.

 

So that's about a third, give or take, actually going to the charities.  Imagine if people would just donate the amount they're spending on lottery tickets to those causes without needing the (incredibly unlikely) chance to win millions to do so. 

 

And, as Seasider said, there are people going without groceries because they're buying lottery tickets in the desperate hope that they will win and end their financial troubles.   It's not condescending to be concerned about those people. I thought we were supposed to be concerned about those people.

 

This article is a few years old but I think it still applies.  I'm sure there are plenty of arguments for the other side.  I imagine there are studies that show that people are more likely to donate to a charity if there is something in it for themselves (or the potential for something).   I think there is a difference between the church or local library raffle and the mega-millions lottery - for one thing, people aren't betting their rent money on a chance to win Betty's famous chocolate cake or (what I won once), an Italian dinner "kit" of pasta, sauce, etc.  I'm guessing the church or local  library raffle has a higher percentage of their take going to support the charity.  That's just a guess though so someone can correct me if I'm wrong.

 

And here is the article I referred to in my post a while back, by John Piper of Bethlehem Baptist Church in MN.  Since it is written from a Christian perspective, I don't expect everyone to find all his arguments compelling.  :-)

 

 

[Guest]

I don't see any money I spend on the lottery (or horses or dogs) as taking away money from the poor. Everyone else out there who is buying a ticket will buy it whether I buy mine or not. Many I know who buy tickets certainly aren't poor.

 

I see it (more or less) as giving money to decent causes. Those causes could be what our state uses lottery money on (that tax bit) or donating to the dreams (ice cream or boats) of those who win. With horse and dog racing, it also helps keep those sports alive - and I enjoy those sports, so want to keep them alive.

 

We won't ever win major amounts (we do get ice cream sometimes) - I know this - odds are pretty much the same as zero, but even if we did, I definitely wouldn't feel guilty. It'd be a chance for us to help oodles of worthwhile causes we'd like to help more. Considering that when we play it's for entertainment, this part is pretty well worked out. :coolgleamA: We donate to our favorite causes now (education, health care, travel opportunities, & a few others). We'd be able to do it quite a bit more. If anyone didn't want our donation, that's ok. I'm sure others would.

This is what I think about when we play the "What if we won the big lottery?" game. There's not a lot I really want except more travel opportunities and my kids' education fully funded. But the main thing I fantasize about is helping my parents. Their home is in such sorry condition. I think about how I would want to rehab their house, or move them if that is what they would prefer.

 

Oh - and I could replace this darn dilapidated couch I'm sitting on! :D

[creekland]

This is what I think about when we play the "What if we won the big lottery?" game. There's not a lot I really want except more travel opportunities and my kids' education fully funded. But the main thing I fantasize about is helping my parents. Their home is in such sorry condition. I think about how I would want to rehab their house, or move them if that is what they would prefer.

 

Oh - and I could replace this darn dilapidated couch I'm sitting on! :D

 

Helping family & some friends plus replacing some things in our house are on our list too.

 

Travel is definitely there.  There's no way it couldn't be.  This travel junkie has no plans on giving up the habit.  I thought I'd have to with all the $$ we had to sink in elsewhere this year (and now hubby needs a new(used) truck too), but I'm still managing to tweak the budget a little bit.  It definitely helps that my mom likes traveling with us and shares the costs.  It also helps that the full time (short term) opportunity came up adding some $$ into the budget.

 

Interestingly enough, even with the $$ sink this year, I've never thought about running out to buy a lottery ticket to fix it until now.   :lol:

 

No plans to do it today either.   :coolgleamA:   

 

But if we were traveling and walking the beach or on a longer road trip or similar... then having a ticket or two would be fun - complete with knowing we'd be helping out senior programs (since we're in PA - assuming we bought the ticket in PA - we don't always if we're traveling) and knowing someone out there would enjoy the rest - or we might get ice cream out of it.  That has happened before.  ;)

[DawnM]

I've never heard a sermon on gluttony either now that you mention it.  I have heard a sermon about taking care of your body, against greed and lack of self control but gluttony has never been specifically mentioned as an aspect of those things. 

 

 

A full sermon on gluttony?  No, I haven't heard one.  I have heard it mentioned and talked about.  

 

I remember a sermon on being honest.  Our pastor talked about how people will ask for prayer for all kinds of conditions to their bodies that could be helped by losing weight but he never have people say, "Please pray that I can lose weight and fix my health problems."  It is far more "Christian" to ask for prayer for your gall stones or knee problems.

 

I am curious, since the Catholics talk more about the 7 deadly sins than the protestants do, do they talk about it more?

[marbel]

I can't imagine an entire sermon on gluttony.   But I don't hear many topical sermons.  At the churches I've gone to for the last 20 or so years, the preacher goes through a book, or part of a book, and does expository sermons on sections of it, week by week.   So gluttony, or debt, will probably come up from time to time but those things are not going to be the main point of the sermon.  For example, the parable of the talents - it's not just about money, but wise use of money and a proper attitude toward money would surely be part of that sermon.

 

Maybe people don't mean an entire sermon on the one topic. Gah, 30 minutes or so on gluttony would be so boring!   I don't think it's a matter of preachers shying away from topics because they're unpopular (did a pp suggest that?) though I do know that "sin" is an unpopular concept in some circles now. 

 

As for people asking for prayers about their health problems vs. their weight problem - I think there's an embarrassment factor there.  I think people who are obese and have bad knees as a result of it know full well what their problem is, and they know everyone else knows it.  But somehow it's more embarrassing to say "please pray that I will find the way to lose weight" than "please pray for relief for my knee problems."  Of course those praying silently can pray however they like.  :-)

[mamiof5]

Moderation is key for many things. I was raised where my stepfather taught us spades for the mental exercise, but we weren't allowed to tell grandma. Grandma considered playing cards as equal to gambling, regardless if one was gambling or not.

Totally agree! I always try to teach the kids that it's OK to have or do certain things, but in moderation.

[HS Mom in NC]

dp.  Sorry.

[HS Mom in NC]

 

This was addressed to Christians, so I feel that anything taking advantage of the poor for my gain would be oppression.

 

 

 

As I said, your definition of oppression to include people freely choosing to do something known to have slim not to  chances of having financial payoff in complete nonsense.  I think it's a gross misuse of the word oppression. Sorry, I just can't take it seriously.

 

[mom31257]

As I said, your definition of oppression to include people freely choosing to do something known to have slim not to chances of having financial payoff in complete nonsense. I think it's a gross misuse of the word oppression. Sorry, I just can't take it seriously.

 

I suppose I use the word oppress because there are scriptures about not oppressing the poor. Maybe exploit, take advantage of, etc., would be phrases you might take seriously.

 

States like ours using it as a merit based college scholarship just feels like a reverse Robinhood to me.

[Word Nerd]

I suppose I use the word oppress because there are scriptures about not oppressing the poor. Maybe exploit, take advantage of, etc., would be phrases you might take seriously.

 

States like ours using it as a merit based college scholarship just feels like a reverse Robinhood to me.

No one is stealing money from anyone; they're giving it willingly.

[LucyStoner]

Not religious. Definitely consider the lottery gambling. Voted against it. Never purchased a ticket.

 

Stick-in-the-mud. Blame Puritan ancestry :D

 

Bill

I don't have any Puritan ancestors to blame. But I agree with you wholeheartedly. I wish they would get rid of the lottery.

[LucyStoner]

I've seen people addicted to gambling, not even getting by, draining all their resources to buy jackpot tickets. Fortunately that wasn't my parents but it was close to home, very close. I recall sitting there checking numbers next to someone who was convinced that "The Lord was going to bless her". Seeing her go from that gambling high to that abusive disappointment. No one should have to see that.

 

The state has no business profiting off that.

 

Sure, people can and do engage in other low barrier gambling opportunities. The lottery won't end that but it wouldn't be as big if not backed by the government. Getting rid of the lottery would force the state to raise the money elsewhere, hopefully in a less regressive manner.