cave canem Posted October 31, 2015 Share Posted October 31, 2015 In a clause like Each worker will enrich his own life, editor struck through *his* and inserted *their*. I don't think I can write like that. argh. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellie Posted October 31, 2015 Share Posted October 31, 2015 In a clause like Each worker will enrich his own life, editor struck through *his* and inserted *their*. I don't think I can write like that. argh. It is a thing now, because in our politically correct world, we cannot write "his." I usually resort to rewording such that I can usual plural pronouns. 9 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goldberry Posted October 31, 2015 Share Posted October 31, 2015 I have seen it regularly but it goes against every grammatical bone in my body. 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 31, 2015 Share Posted October 31, 2015 Did it mean to include men and women or not? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 31, 2015 Share Posted October 31, 2015 I stick with the masculine pronoun. I'm good with that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MFG Posted October 31, 2015 Share Posted October 31, 2015 Does the worker have multiple personalities? 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regentrude Posted October 31, 2015 Share Posted October 31, 2015 I cringe when I see this. It is a clumsy attempt to be inclusive, because using "his" as default is inappropriate if there are females among the workers. Use of the male pronoun should be reserved for situations where there are only males involved: "Each man will enrich his own life" would be a perfectly acceptable sentence. Being a grammar stickler, I refuse to use "their" as a singular gender neutral pronoun and rephrase my sentences so that they use a plural subject which makes use of "their" as a plural pronoun grammatically correct. ETA: I disagree with many things that are done in the name of "political correctness", but the need for language that includes females is not one of those. Unfortunately, there is currently no gender neutral singular pronoun in English. Language evolves; so as much as it saddens me, I expect the use of "their"/"they" as a gender neutral singular pronoun to become prevalent, since "his or hers"/"she or he" are clumsy and still do not have parity (i.e. which comes first?). Using the male pronoun per default for mixed gendered groups is somewhat of anachronism. 9 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amira Posted October 31, 2015 Share Posted October 31, 2015 We need a gender-neutral third person singular pronoun and people have been using "their" that way for a long time. I think it's good that English can accommodate that. Rephrasing works and so do other different gender-neutral third person singular pronouns, but I'm not at all happy with using a masculine pronoun to refer to people who aren't male. Since people actually use "their" this way, and since I think grammar rules should be allowed to evolve according to real-life usage, I think "their" is the best option. 17 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gardenmom5 Posted October 31, 2015 Share Posted October 31, 2015 I'd say it is over-the-top PC. 9 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regentrude Posted October 31, 2015 Share Posted October 31, 2015 I'd say it is over-the-top PC. From your username I assume you are a woman. Would you feel included by language like "A homeschooling parent educates his children at home", just to name an example? 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gardenmom5 Posted October 31, 2015 Share Posted October 31, 2015 From your username I assume you are a woman. Would you feel included by language like "A homeschooling parent educates his children at home", just to name an example? let's put it this way - it would NOT bother me. and it's called being grammatically correct. 12 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tsuga Posted October 31, 2015 Share Posted October 31, 2015 Yes, and I fully support the gender-neutral third person singular pronoun. His refers to a male person. In vernacular speech, "their" has already been adopted to denote the third person in the singular and I really like it. I hope it continues to develop, as opposed to artificial pronouns such as "ze". I also support the loss of the formal "You" in English, with "you" replacing "Thou" and "You", as well as replacing "you [ plural, but not formal]" with "y'all" or "you guys" and "all y'all" for "you [more than two]". I would support a gender-neutral third person singular that was not the same as any other pronoun, I suppose, but I believe what will happen is that "all" will be added on to singular pronouns: I / We You / You all They / They all Please note that at present, ONLY the third person singular is gendered. All the other ones are already gender neutral. 14 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regentrude Posted October 31, 2015 Share Posted October 31, 2015 I also support the loss of the formal "You" in English, with "you" replacing "Thou" and "You", as well as replacing "you [ plural, but not formal]" with "y'all" or "you guys" and "all y'all" for "you [more than two]". oh, another can of worms opened with the bolded... (I am not a Southerner and will not let anybody make me say "y'all" or, heaven forbid "all y'all". Shudder. "You" works just fine.) 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tsuga Posted October 31, 2015 Share Posted October 31, 2015 I'd say it is over-the-top PC. From Merriam Webster, PC is: : agreeing with the idea that people should be careful to not use language or behave in a way that could offend a particular group of people I do not agree that the reason to adopt a gender-neutral third-person singular pronoun is to avoid offending people. It does not merely offend me when the male sex is considered the default sex. It puts me at disadvantage. Also, "he" is not truly gender neutral. Traditional use of "he" would never use it to refer to a person in a female-dominated sphere. This implies to me that "he" means a male person, but "women could do it to if they wanted". It creates a linguistic bias towards men. So to reiterate: making the male the default is not just offensive, but harmful. The gray stuff is coming from the copy-paste job I did. Sorry about that. 10 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tsuga Posted October 31, 2015 Share Posted October 31, 2015 oh, another can of worms opened with the bolded... Hah! Great point. Okay, Texas wins this one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regentrude Posted October 31, 2015 Share Posted October 31, 2015 Hah! Great point. Okay, Texas wins this one. "you guys" is incredibly pervasive, and I catch myself using it for mixed groups, even though I know better - it is still hard not to. "their" as a singular pronoun is also very pervasive. I never have trouble avoiding it when I am writing, but when I speak and have to think on my feet, it takes an effort not to say things like "has everybody handed in their quiz?" and rephrase it in a way that avoids the need for a gender neutral singular pronoun. (But I know that this is a situation where I have to watch out for this, LOL) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ILiveInFlipFlops Posted October 31, 2015 Share Posted October 31, 2015 From Merriam Webster, PC is: : agreeing with the idea that people should be careful to not use language or behave in a way that could offend a particular group of people The horror! :eek: 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forty-two Posted October 31, 2015 Share Posted October 31, 2015 I'm pro-singular-their, myself :leaving: . To me, it's the least obtrusive solution to the lack of a singular gender-neutral pronoun. This site argues that the singular-their has been in use since the late 1300s and didn't cause waves till nearly 1800, and that Jane Austen herself used it multiple times in her novels (and it wasn't just her uneducated characters who used it). If it's good enough for Jane Austen... ;) 13 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 31, 2015 Share Posted October 31, 2015 I correct ds23's papers from "their" to "his or her" when asked, but remind him that I am old and to check it over to make sure it sounds okay for his intended audience. ds7 hasn't asked me to proofread anything for him yet so I'll deal with that when I have to. Yes, it's a thing. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redsquirrel Posted November 1, 2015 Share Posted November 1, 2015 This isn't 'pc' or anything like that. It has a very long history. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singular_they https://motivatedgrammar.wordpress.com/2009/09/10/singular-they-and-the-many-reasons-why-its-correct/ http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/tomchiversscience/100184652/if-someone-tells-you-singular-they-is-wrong-please-do-tell-them-to-get-stuffed/ http://www.economist.com/blogs/johnson/2013/01/grammar Shakespeare, Austen, Dickens, etc etc have all done it. And it looks like using 'he' as 'gender neutral' is a 19th century guideline. One could argue that 'he' is the new kid on the block It's really not that big a deal, nor is it new. 12 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tanaqui Posted November 1, 2015 Share Posted November 1, 2015 It's always been a thing, as posters upthread point out. If it was good enough for Shakespeare, then it most definitely should be good enough for youse guys* too :) Now, "been a thing" or "is this a thing" is recent. How recent, I'm not sure. * Yinz? You-uns? 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bettyandbob Posted November 1, 2015 Share Posted November 1, 2015 I write "his or her". I don't like "their" as a singular pronoun. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cinder Posted November 1, 2015 Share Posted November 1, 2015 "you guys" is incredibly pervasive, and I catch myself using it for mixed groups, even though I know better - it is still hard not to. I grew up in Hawaii and there any group was "you guys" even if it was a group of all girls. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluegoat Posted November 1, 2015 Share Posted November 1, 2015 I think the differences is that the current usage is particularly in order to attempt to be gender neutral. I don't really like it, mainly because it isn't a natural change, its one being imposed based on an agenda. I have no problem being a "he" because I consider "he" to be gender inclusive. Though another possibility that I prefer to "their" with a singular subject is to sometimes use "she" when it's a person of unspecified sex. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DragonFaerie Posted November 1, 2015 Share Posted November 1, 2015 I teach English, and I will mark an error on the paper if a student uses the plural "they" or "their" with a singular antecedent. The student can use "he," "she," or "he/she," but not "they." Nope, nope, nope. 8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garga Posted November 1, 2015 Share Posted November 1, 2015 I think using "he" as a gender neutral pronoun is offensive. It's not gender neutral and it excludes half the world. I am happy that we're all going back to their. It is a thing and it's been a long time coming. 13 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rjand6more Posted November 1, 2015 Share Posted November 1, 2015 My English teacher in high school corrected me once on this issue. Lesson learned and never forgotten. I will never hear "their" as right in this case. I will protest quietly, though. :) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redsquirrel Posted November 1, 2015 Share Posted November 1, 2015 I think the differences is that the current usage is particularly in order to attempt to be gender neutral. I don't really like it, mainly because it isn't a natural change, its one being imposed based on an agenda. I have no problem being a "he" because I consider "he" to be gender inclusive. Though another possibility that I prefer to "their" with a singular subject is to sometimes use "she" when it's a person of unspecified sex. When I use it, I don't use it with an agenda. It fits the situation when I am trying to communicate. Honestly, I don't even think about it. If I am trying, actually trying to be 'gender neutral' I will use 'she' because if 'he' can count for both, then so can she. There isn't anything particular to men that makes them the obvious neutral stand-in, so I simply use the 'universal she.' And there is nothing 'new' about attempts to make the English language inclusive. It has been going on for longer than I have been alive. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellie Posted November 1, 2015 Share Posted November 1, 2015 Did it mean to include men and women or not? It's just a general statement. English does not have a neutral pronoun, so when we don't know specifically, we use the male. It's no one's fault; it just is what it is. 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellie Posted November 1, 2015 Share Posted November 1, 2015 I teach English, and I will mark an error on the paper if a student uses the plural "they" or "their" with a singular antecedent. The student can use "he," "she," or "he/she," but not "they." Nope, nope, nope. I think you're my new best friend. :cheers2: 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tanaqui Posted November 1, 2015 Share Posted November 1, 2015 It's just a general statement. English does not have a neutral pronoun, so when we don't know specifically, we use the male. It's no one's fault; it just is what it is. What do you mean "we"? Speak for yourself, Ellie! As for being "no one's fault", given how recently the prohibition on singular they was invented, I think it is most definitely "somebody's fault". We may not have a specific name, but somebody came up with this zombie rule and heedlessly perpetuated it. It did not invent itself straight out of the ether. 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bolt. Posted November 1, 2015 Share Posted November 1, 2015 The use of "they" and "their" as singular non-gendered pronouns is a perfectly normal and acceptable standard within the English language. It is not an error. It is an available choice and varies by preference. 10 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elegantlion Posted November 1, 2015 Share Posted November 1, 2015 I might agree with Austen, well never thought that would happen. (ducks the tomatoes) We need a gender neutral singular pronoun, is it really all that difficult to see? I don't like the newer construction of ze either, although it makes more sense. Their is already in use, it's much easier to adopt. I hate writing he/she or he or she unless I specifically discussing male or female. We need a neuter pronoun. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tanaqui Posted November 1, 2015 Share Posted November 1, 2015 I don't find that people use "ze" in the same context that they use "they". I've witnessed singular they in the wild in such contexts as "when the new Pope is invested*, they will do this and that" where quite obviously the new Pope is gonna be a "he" (and lo and behold, he did turn out to be male after all). This suggests to me that, for many speakers, singular they is analyzed as referring to somebody indeterminate. An unknown Pope is guaranteed to be male, but we don't know exactly which Catholic male he's gonna be until it's done. New pronouns such as ze or xe are generally used to refer to a specific known somebody whose gender is unknown, or who doesn't identify along the gender binary in the first place. So if for some reason I had no idea if the current Pope was Francis or Frances, I might refer to said Pope as "ze". Except I probably wouldn't - I only use those pronouns upon request, finding them a bit ugly. (This is a matter of personal preference, not a matter of "correctness".) * For some reason, that's the word springing to mind, and I'm not sure it's the right word at all, or even a reasonable one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Word Nerd Posted November 1, 2015 Share Posted November 1, 2015 "You" was formerly used only in a plural sense, but today no one has any objection to using it as both a singular and plural pronoun. I don't like singular "they" either and will recast a sentence to avoid using it when possible. However, I think it's time to let this one go--and I have been doing just that more in the past year or so while editing. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tanaqui Posted November 1, 2015 Share Posted November 1, 2015 Lindley Murray. Now I know whom to curse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChocolateReignRemix Posted November 1, 2015 Share Posted November 1, 2015 It's just a general statement. English does not have a neutral pronoun, so when we don't know specifically, we use the male. It's no one's fault; it just is what it is. It isn't anyone's fault, but that doesn't mean it can't change. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tanaqui Posted November 1, 2015 Share Posted November 1, 2015 It is, apparently, the fault of Lindley Murray. A pox on him, and on all his descendants! A pox on all their houses! And their pets! Wait, not their pets. I've gone too far. 9 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellie Posted November 1, 2015 Share Posted November 1, 2015 It isn't anyone's fault, but that doesn't mean it can't change. I see no reason for it to change. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tsuga Posted November 1, 2015 Share Posted November 1, 2015 I think the differences is that the current usage is particularly in order to attempt to be gender neutral. I don't really like it, mainly because it isn't a natural change, its one being imposed based on an agenda. I have no problem being a "he" because I consider "he" to be gender inclusive. Though another possibility that I prefer to "their" with a singular subject is to sometimes use "she" when it's a person of unspecified sex. I guess my question is... in what way is "he" gender inclusive? I don't feel included by "he" at all. I'm not a "he". To me, "he" sounds archaic and stilted and just plain wrong. He/she alternation is impractical. It's the hyphenated last name of the pronoun world. It's what I was asked to do as an undergrad and that's why we all lobbied for "they" because "he" was incorrect, masculine, and "he or she" and "he/she [alternating]" becomes confusing. It's no one's fault; it just is what it is... I see no reason for it to change. Precisely. Which is to say, in my dialect, "they" is the third person gender neutral pronoun. It may not be in your dialect, but it is in mine. And I like it. Let's just keep it as it is. They. :) 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChocolateReignRemix Posted November 1, 2015 Share Posted November 1, 2015 I see no reason for it to change. I see no need for both genders to be represented by "his", so here we sit. 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amy in NH Posted November 1, 2015 Share Posted November 1, 2015 Exclusion of singular-they also perpetuates heteronormative thinking and excludes those who do not fit in the he/she binary. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tanaqui Posted November 1, 2015 Share Posted November 1, 2015 I see no reason for it to change. It's not changing. Singular they has a long pedigree, and was never actually incorrect. "Use he if you don't know the gender!" is just another made up zombie rule. There was no reason for that change. It wasn't, to quote Bluegoat here, a "natural change". 11 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paige Posted November 1, 2015 Share Posted November 1, 2015 I was taught to never use a plural pronoun for a singular antecedent. I can't do it when writing and when I read it, I cringe. In speaking, I admit I sometimes say it. I was never taught to use he as the generic pronoun for an unknown person. I was actually taught that using he as if it were gender neutral was archaic and inappropriate and it's been over 10yrs since I've been in any kind of college class. I was told to either use he or she, which really doesn't bother me at all, to reword the sentence so that the antecedent is plural, or to alternate. If there's no need to assume that the general unknown person is the same individual throughout the paper, I was told to mix it up so that he and she were used about equally. Alternating every other one is too formulaic, but we were supposed to keep it in mind that we wanted balance. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mamiof5 Posted November 1, 2015 Share Posted November 1, 2015 It's kind of silly because in Spanish you would call a group of cats "gatos" by default. If you discover they are all female then you would change it to the feminine. I never thought to get offended over the Spanish use of masculine default, though I suppose I could start. Really just be consistent within the paragraph or article and I probably won't care either way. "Their" just looks incorrect. Though I'm not sure it bothers me. I can be fickle. Yes, in Spanish you use the male pronoun if there's at least one male species...and as far as I know the cats (or anyone) gets offended :) So tired of having to make changes to make sure everyone feels "included" 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melissa in Australia Posted November 1, 2015 Share Posted November 1, 2015 I was taught to never use a plural pronoun for a singular antecedent. I can't do it when writing and when I read it, I cringe. In speaking, I admit I sometimes say it. I was never taught to use he as the generic pronoun for an unknown person. I was actually taught that using he as if it were gender neutral was archaic and inappropriate and it's been over 10yrs since I've been in any kind of college class. I was told to either use he or she, which really doesn't bother me at all, to reword the sentence so that the antecedent is plural, or to alternate. If there's no need to assume that the general unknown person is the same individual throughout the paper, I was told to mix it up so that he and she were used about equally. Alternating every other one is too formulaic, but we were supposed to keep it in mind that we wanted balance. I was told at university to have everything in third person. so there was no he or she at all. it was always something vague like the reader , or the student or vague language that implied someone but didn't actually state it. Graduated end of last year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pawz4me Posted November 1, 2015 Share Posted November 1, 2015 I can't work up enough interest to care one way or another. :laugh: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bettyandbob Posted November 1, 2015 Share Posted November 1, 2015 I was told at university to have everything in third person. so there was no he or she at all. it was always something vague like the reader , or the student or vague language that implied someone but didn't actually state it. Graduated end of last year. Are you saying "he or she" is not third person. "He or she" is third person. With the "or" the phrasing doesn't refer to a specific gender and remains singular. "He" , "she", or "it" can all be third person singular. When writing about people "it " is not used. "They" is third person plural. When speaking many people use a dialect that uses "they" in third person singular. As others have stated I was taught to match pronouns to antecedents. My children, who attended a very rigorous IB program for high school were taught this as well. So, in writing, anywhere I might have spoken "they" I use "he or she" for third person singular. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mommaduck Posted November 1, 2015 Share Posted November 1, 2015 It makes more sense when one is speaking in plural. (Have not read beyond the first few posts) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melissa in Australia Posted November 1, 2015 Share Posted November 1, 2015 Are you saying "he or she" is not third person. "He or she" is third person. With the "or" the phrasing doesn't refer to a specific gender and remains singular. "He" , "she", or "it" can all be third person singular. When writing about people "it " is not used. "They" is third person plural. When speaking many people use a dialect that uses "they" in third person singular. As others have stated I was taught to match pronouns to antecedents. My children, who attended a very rigorous IB program for high school were taught this as well. So, in writing, anywhere I might have spoken "they" I use "he or she" for third person singular. Well I thought he or she was second person, or something like that, not first person but not third person. For third person one had to be move vague- like the reader, or the student or something along those lines. Could be I have it all wrong and was writing complete nonsense in all my assignments. I freely admit I have dyslexia and my grasp on written text can be somewhat lacking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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