trying not to be frustrated...doggy adoptions - a long vent.

[melmichigan]

We gave up and went with a breeder so I can completely understand your situation.  Sadly, because of breed demand, we paid only $350 more than the $850 adoption fee that many of the rescues were charging.  I'm sorry, but some of the rescue groups are out of hand in more ways than one.

[goldberry]

$850 adoption fee that many of the rescues were charging. 

 

:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

[itsheresomewhere]

We gave up and went with a breeder so I can completely understand your situation.  Sadly, because of breed demand, we paid only $350 more than the $850 adoption fee that many of the rescues were charging.  I'm sorry, but some of the rescue groups are out of hand in more ways than one.

 

 

:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

I know of a rescue that charges a mere 1800.00 for a dog.  That is the fee even for a mutt.  There is one on the west coast that has a fee over 2000.00 and the list of requirements is hysterical.  

[Catwoman]

They are not that meticulous for foster families. And the worker tells you ahead of time about stuff that usually catches people like having dog food in the kitchen because you're not supposed to feed an animal in the kitchen (even though the worker doesn't care if you actually do.)

I'm just curious -- why are aren't you supposed to feed the dog in the kitchen? :confused:

[Catwoman]

I know of a rescue that charges a mere 1800.00 for a dog. That is the fee even for a mutt. There is one on the west coast that has a fee over 2000.00 and the list of requirements is hysterical.

:svengo: :svengo: :svengo: :svengo:

 

Has anyone ever actually adopted a pet from them?

 

I can understand charging a reasonable adoption fee, but $850 or $1,800 crosses the line into highway robbery. That is absolutely insane, and ridiculously greedy. It also eliminates so many wonderful families from adopting animals that need homes.

[RioSamba]

I've seen some whackadoo rescues, including one with a contract allowing them to take the dog back at any time. Not requiring that you surrender the dog to them if necessary, but actually retaining primary ownership of the dog!

 

My state has an amazing program that rescues and trains dogs for service as well as pet homes. Prisoners do the training, under the supervision of a pro. The pet dogs (mostly adults) come out of the program with at minimum basic obedience, and a well known temperament. The adoption process here is sensible and the cost very reasonable. I know other states have similar programs, so it might be worth looking.

 

My most wonderful dog was adopted as a three year old retiree from her breeder. She is gone now and I miss her terribly. I'm sorry you are facing so much resistance when you just want to provide a loving home to a dog!

[Laurie4b]

 I'm just curious -- why are aren't you supposed to feed the dog in the kitchen? :confused:

 

Because you can't feed a dog in a restaurant kitchen.  :huh:  It's supposedly unsanitary. 

[Farrar]

Princess Mommy, I think this is why everyone I know in DC who has adopted has gotten a pit mix. Most of them are sweet, but... hyper.

 

What a nightmare.

[Spy Car]

We have been looking for a new dog recently, and have ended up going to a breeder.  I am not a fan of the purebred dog system, and was really pushing for a cross-breed, which here means online ad or the shelter or rescue.

 

But it seems like almost every dog at the shelter is not suitable for kids under 12 - and the reasons seem really stupid, normal dog behaviors.  The rescue organizations all have contracts my husband has issues with, they can just come and take the dog any time, if there is a legal issue you pay all the fees even if they really were at fault.  I think these things are basically CYA and would not be issues, but I understand why dh isn't willing to agree to that stuff.

 

This dog is also meant to be a gun dog, and many of them don't seem to think that is an ok life for a dog - it's much better apparently if they just ay around the house and get fat.  It's similar for cats - an indolent indoor life is what they want fore rescues, not an actual working, or even fairly natural, cat life.

 

If you want a gundog, your antipathy towards well-bred pedigreed breeds with proven parentage could not be more displaced.

 

Excellent breeders take care to maximize hunting potential and spend time, money, and effort doing medical testing, researching the COI (Coefficient of Inbreeding), importing dogs from afar, etc. 

 

When people cover the costs of doing things the right way, puppies have the the best chances that genetic and other health problems are bred against, and that work potential is maximized.

 

No knowledgeable gundog enthusiast would advocate for a crossbreed over a pedigreed dog from a proven line bred to ethical standards.

 

The push for free (or nearly free) dogs is a very bad development in our society. Breeding dogs well has real costs. Potential dog owners who won't bear the costs are part of the disposable pet problem.

 

Bill 

[Catwoman]

Because you can't feed a dog in a restaurant kitchen. :huh: It's supposedly unsanitary.

Thanks! I misunderstood your post -- I thought you were talking about home kitchens. :)

[Daria]

They are not that meticulous for foster families. And the worker tells you ahead of time about stuff that usually catches people like having dog food in the kitchen because you're not supposed to feed an animal in the kitchen (even though the worker doesn't care if you actually do.)

Why aren't you supposed to feed your dog in the kitchen?

[abba12]

I once had a shelter deny me adopting a cat because I lived along a more major road, and had children. They decided my children would let the cat out and it would be run over. So, people who live in areas busier than a standard suburban cul-du-sac with children aren't allowed cats apparently. They also wanted assurance I would feed it a raw diet (though, their definition of raw diet was beef mince, and nothing but beef mince, every day. Idiots.)

 

On the other hand.... the next shelter gave us a 'mixed breed' cat that had slightly unusual markings, saying maybe it had bengal three or four generations back, as well as being tailless which meant one of it's parents was probably manx. It was a wonderful, normal kitten apparently. We got it home and it began acting very strangely I did some more research. I am now convinced it is a PURE Banx (bengal/manx cross, it's actually a thing apparently). In my research, most breeders wont give these cats to families with children because they tend to either love people or hate people, and can be aggressive to children. We have three little kids including a baby!

 

Fortunately, we lucked out, this thing has the most beautiful (albeit strange) temperament of any cat I've met. We have had some issues, peeing on things was a big problem for awhile there, and he CANNOT be an outdoor cat, as much as I know his breed should be. We tried putting him in a cat harness but he will escape anything, and our area is not safe for outdoor cats...  but he plays beautifully with the children, even tolerates the baby's newfound game of 'whack' very well and just runs off when he's tired of her if we don't spot what she's doing first. But, we had a NEWBORN at the time we realized what he was, and that we couldn't keep treating him like a normal cat, and I was terrified of the cat smothering her or attacking her. Given the information up front, there's no way I would have taken him. People who run a shelter and deal with cats every day should have been able to identify what he was. I call him our dog. Honestly, bengals are like really smart, slightly neurotic, dogs. And have you ever seen a dog try to jump gracefully from one high-up place to another? It has NO co-ordination. It's hilarious. Poor thing must have a constant headache for the number of times it hits it's head while jumping or charging. Do normal cats charge? My childhood cats never did, but our other cat has learned to because of this one. We are often woken at 2am by this 3 year old cat, certainly not a kitten anymore, running full bore up and down the hallway over and over until he inevitably stops too late on one trip and ends up smashing into the child gate at the end. Or he will go from a charge into a series of jumps to get to the highest places in the house at unbelievable speed, usually without missing....  :lol:

 

Next time I think we will be buying a cat or dog from a pet store. I HATE to say that, I hate puppy farms etc, But if we had this much trouble with a cat, being denied for stupid reasons and then getting a cat that they apparently didn't assess whatsoever to have missed his 'unique' personality, I don't trust them. It's ok for a cat, they usually don't do too much harm, but I'm more worried about the risks of getting a dog from a shelter, especially since my husband is nervous around dogs, he's been attacked by dogs twice. I need to know the dog wont have any nasty surprises they didn't notice. The only way to do that is to go through a shelter which screens thoroughly, and it appears such places have an immediate bias against children. 

[PrincessMommy]

Thank you everyone.  Your stories and PMs have given me hope.   I'm less hesitant to try a local shelter or Craigslist. 

 

Another site that I've found is rescueme.org .  It's a mix of rescues, shelters, and individuals looking for homes for animals (not just dogs/cats).  I might be more inclined to email an individual from there too.

 

In looking around today I discovered there's a big Dog Fest this Saturday north of Baltimore.  I'm so excited.  It looks like there are going to be many different rescues and shelters from MD and Southern PA participating.  It will definitely be worth the hour's drive.

 

Here's hoping. 

[Bluegoat]

I you want a gundog, your antipathy towards well-bred pedigreed breeds with proven parentage could not be more displaced.

 

Excellent breeders take care to maximize hunting potential and spend time, money, and effort doing medical testing, researching the COI (Coefficient of Inbreeding), importing dogs from afar, etc. 

 

When people cover the costs of doing things the right way, puppies have the the best chances that genetic and other health problems are bred against, and that work potential is maximized.

 

No knowledgeable gundog enthusiast would advocate for a crossbreed over a pedigreed dog from a proven line bred to ethical standards.

 

The push for free (or nearly free) dogs is a very bad development in our society. Breeding dogs well has real costs. Potential dog owners who won't bear the costs are part of the disposable pet problem.

 

Bill 

 

Bill, do some reading on dog genetics.  Geneticists who have looked at dog genomes have been pretty clear that closed breed books - which is what you get with purebred dogs in the kennel club system - are in serious danger.  It's an artificial genetic bottleneck, and even if it avoids direct physical problems, in the long run it will destroy their fertility and immune systems.  Problems we can already see in many breeds, after only about 100 years of closed breeding.

 

Analysis of the genomes of dog populations have shown really significant loss of genetic variation, with, IIRC, an average of something around 50%.  That should be shocking, especially to anyone who likes dogs.  Another hundred years will be the end of many dog breeds.

 

Specifically speaking of gun dogs and hunting dogs, there have been a number of minority breeds where closed breed books upon acceptance to the kennel club system has been seriously detrimental to the breeds.  Where I live the duck toller in recent years became a "purebred" dog in the club system.  That is not the dog to get if you want to have a good duck toller for gun work - what you want is the Little River Dog - a dog with no closed books, and without the demands of foolish conformational breeding.

 

It's unfortunate that popular gun dog breeders haven't in general been very inclined to think outside the box on such questions - so I think it is pretty unlikely that you have ever met one that looks to produce non-purebred gun dogs.  That being the case, I don't know how you would be able to judge what sort of dogs they would be.  Frankly, I can tell you that finding a breeder even for a good purebred dog for actual hunting is not all that easy - many are actually field trial dogs and not ideally temperamentally suited to actual work - they are far too high strung.  Combined with the health issues, and supporting an unhealthy system, it does not make purebred breeders terribly appealing.

 

The best gun dog we ever had was a cross, and not even with another hunting type dog, she was a lab/husky mix.  Very healthy, never overworked herself, immune to the cold, smart enough to understand the point of the whole thing and create solutions to problems (including stupid humans), and patient enough to sit for hours in a duck blind until she was needed, or in a car, or in the house.  Even conceptually, such an addition of genetic material is not a bad idea, and the thought that it should be precluded for a human artificiality created by people who did not understand genetics is just silly.

 

 

[Greta]

In looking around today I discovered there's a big Dog Fest this Saturday north of Baltimore. I'm so excited. It looks like there are going to be many different rescues and shelters from MD and Southern PA participating. It will definitely be worth the hour's drive.

 

Here's hoping.

Oh, good, I hope it works out! I was going to mention that our vet's office *always* has signs up from people who found a stray that needs a home, had an emergency that requires them to give up their pet, inherited a pet they didn't want when a loved one died, etc. It seems like a good place to find a pet without all of the hassles of the rescue organizations.

 

I haven't had any luck with rescue organizations either, though I never even got as far into the process as you did. Several times, and with several different organizations, I filled out their online application and/or called to get more info, and simply never heard back. I didn't really feel like begging them for a dog when our local shelter was overflowing, so I went there instead.

 

Our local shelter must be more desperate than most to place animals, because they make it very easy and have very minimal requirements. I'm exaggerating a bit, but it's basically like as long as you have never been charged with animal cruelty, you're in.

 

I did luck out once with a really good breeder, though. I got a young dog, but one that was old enough to be house-trained. The breeder had held on to her thinking she might be a good show dog, but had decided that she wasn't quite up to par for that purpose. She is a wonderful pet, though, very healthy, good disposition. So you might consider checking around with breeders in your area for a similar situation, though I realize things like that don't happen often.

[Spy Car]

Bill, do some reading on dog genetics.  Geneticists who have looked at dog genomes have been pretty clear that closed breed books - which is what you get with purebred dogs in the kennel club system - are in serious danger.  It's an artificial genetic bottleneck, and even if it avoids direct physical problems, in the long run it will destroy their fertility and immune systems.  Problems we can already see in many breeds, after only about 100 years of closed breeding.

 

Analysis of the genomes of dog populations have shown really significant loss of genetic variation, with, IIRC, an average of something around 50%.  That should be shocking, especially to anyone who likes dogs.  Another hundred years will be the end of many dog breeds.

 

Specifically speaking of gun dogs and hunting dogs, there have been a number of minority breeds where closed breed books upon acceptance to the kennel club system has been seriously detrimental to the breeds.  Where I live the duck toller in recent years became a "purebred" dog in the club system.  That is not the dog to get if you want to have a good duck toller for gun work - what you want is the Little River Dog - a dog with no closed books, and without the demands of foolish conformational breeding.

 

It's unfortunate that popular gun dog breeders haven't in general been very inclined to think outside the box on such questions - so I think it is pretty unlikely that you have ever met one that looks to produce non-purebred gun dogs.  That being the case, I don't know how you would be able to judge what sort of dogs they would be.  Frankly, I can tell you that finding a breeder even for a good purebred dog for actual hunting is not all that easy - many are actually field trial dogs and not ideally temperamentally suited to actual work - they are far too high strung.  Combined with the health issues, and supporting an unhealthy system, it does not make purebred breeders terribly appealing.

 

The best gun dog we ever had was a cross, and not even with another hunting type dog, she was a lab/husky mix.  Very healthy, never overworked herself, immune to the cold, smart enough to understand the point of the whole thing and create solutions to problems (including stupid humans), and patient enough to sit for hours in a duck blind until she was needed, or in a car, or in the house.  Even conceptually, such an addition of genetic material is not a bad idea, and the thought that it should be precluded for a human artificiality created by people who did not understand genetics is just silly.

 

 

What you fail to understand is that the genetic selection you believe is destroying dog breeds is exactly what accounts for the development of great gundogs (and other working breeds).

 

This truth is understood by all people who work with flushers, retrievers, pointers, and other versatile gundogs. Selecting for great hunting abilities makes great hunting breeds. The idea that scrupulously bred hunting dogs are a "detriment" is one of the most preposterous statements I've ever read.

 

It is not hard to find breeders who maximize both working abilities and good temperament. Well bred dogs are more predictable on every level than making crosses (like crossing labs and huskies) and hoping for the best. 

 

Bill

[Momto4Js123]

That's why the rescues and humane societys are full. It's absurd. 

[snickerplum]

I cannot believe the hoops and cost some of these shelters have! Our dog was $50 (and turns out he's a purebred). They called the references Dh gave on the application and that was it. This other stuff sounds nutty. They even gave us a coupon or rebate thing for getting him neutered.

OP, I hope you have good luck at the pet event! And, if things go well pictures would be lovely. :-)

[Bluegoat]

What you fail to understand is that the genetic selection you believe is destroying dog breeds is exactly what accounts for the development of great gundogs (and other working breeds).

 

This truth is understood by all people who work with flushers, retrievers, pointers, and other versatile gundogs. Selecting for great hunting abilities makes great hunting breeds. The idea that scrupulously bred hunting dogs are a "detriment" is one of the most preposterous statements I've ever read.

 

It is not hard to find breeders who maximize both working abilities and good temperament. Well bred dogs are more predictable on every level than making crosses (like crossing labs and huskies) and hoping for the best. 

 

Bill

 

All I am seeing here is you not actually responding to what I said, so I am not inclined to think I'm not understanding you. If you are so very sure of your position, you should actually have something to respond to my points. 

 

Do please answer - do you know what a genetic bottleneck is?  Do you understand why artificially creating them would lead to the same serious genetic problems that a natural one would.  Do you understand what it means when I say that purebred dogs have lost half their genetic diversity?  Do you know why genetic bottlenecks lead to infertility and immune issues?  How is it that you imagine that will be avoided in purebred dogs? 

 

There were dog breeders who lived before the kennel club system, many of them.  They bred good, working, hunting dogs, without these problems.  Unfortunately, it is almost impossible to find such people now, they are all working within the closed book system.

 

Why would anyone who likes dogs want to contribute to that system if they could avoid it?  Why not think about a better system?  Maybe one that didn't come out of the ignorance of 19th century eugenics supporters.

[Spy Car]

All I am seeing here is you not actually responding to what I said, so I am not inclined to think I'm not understanding you. If you are so very sure of your position, you should actually have something to respond to my points. 

 

Do please answer - do you know what a genetic bottleneck is?  Do you understand why artificially creating them would lead to the same serious genetic problems that a natural one would.  Do you understand what it means when I say that purebred dogs have lost half their genetic diversity?  Do you know why genetic bottlenecks lead to infertility and immune issues?  How is it that you imagine that will be avoided in purebred dogs? 

 

There were dog breeders who lived before the kennel club system, many of them.  They bred good, working, hunting dogs, without these problems.  Unfortunately, it is almost impossible to find such people now, they are all working within the closed book system.

 

Why would anyone who likes dogs want to contribute to that system if they could avoid it?  Why not think about a better system?  Maybe one that didn't come out of the ignorance of 19th century eugenics supporters.

 

Comparing the development of the great bird-dog breeds that now exist (thanks to human selection) to "ignorance of 19th century eugenics supporters" is mind boggling. There were no dog breeds with the consistent and specialized qualities one finds in modern gun dogs prior to human selection.

 

Responsable breeders take COI strongly into account when arranging matings. Often this means importing dogs from afar at great expense. 

 

Anytime genetic diversity is narrowed there is a risk of concentrating problems. That is why the ethical standards of breed clubs requires medical testing prior to breeding to work towards breeding genetic problems out. There have been breeds where bad breeding has undermined breed health. That is true. But these problems have been caused by bad practices, and generally by breeding for "show" over function. There are breeds (like English Bulldogs) where I'd strongly support opening the studbooks, and allowing conscious dog breeders to make approved out-crosses to attempt to rejuvenate a once noble breed.

 

On the other hand, the concentrated genetics makes gun dogs what they are. If you don't understand this you are missing the plot. 

 

Just throwing together a husky and a lab and hoping for the best is an absurd way to breed a bird-dog.

[SpecialClassical]

You are not alone! We looked at rescues for over a year, filled out apps, and talked with many, many volunteers. And here I sit with my sweet, naughty 9 month old puppy. We went to a breeder who cared about his dogs and had people travel thousands of miles to buy his puppies. And ours was the same price and cheaper than the rescue dogs of the breed.

 

Our process was so similar to yours, it is astounding. Four human adoption home studies went through here, but getting a dog was nearly impossible. And that is with a fenced yard, the desire for and adult dog, and willingness to provide very good care including pricey food!

 

I love my sweet Velcro Dane, but could have done without the adolescent behavior of this crazy pup. Regardless, we are dedicated to her and would have been to a rescue dog as long as it was older child-safe.

 

What a crazy world it is!

[Alice]

We are in Northern Virginia and adopted from a local rescue about a year and a half ago. They did do an application and a home visit but were reasonable. We have young kids and they mostly seemed to want to make sure that we understood what issues could arise with dogs and especially with kids and dogs. On the home visit she pointed out a few areas that were potential problems but didn't deny our application for them. We do have a fenced in yard but had a hole in it that we didn't even know about in a back corner (it's a big lot for this area). She pointed it out and we said we wouldn't let the dog alone in the yard until it was repaired. I got the feeling from the visit that they more wanted to make sure we had thought about having a dog and weren't jumping into something that we hadn't researched at all. 

 

We did know the family that had been fostering our dog really well and had already gotten to know the dog over the 5 months they had her (she had a skin disorder that made them keep her out of the adoption cycle at first although it was temporary and completely resolved). That family might have vouched for us which might have made our situation different, but in case you want to try again the rescue we used was A Forever Home. 

[MercyA]

Next time I think we will be buying a cat or dog from a pet store. I HATE to say that, I hate puppy farms etc, 

 

I hope you'll consider a good breeder instead of a pet shop if you decide not to go the shelter route. Almost all of the dogs in pet stores are from puppy mills, but there are good breeders who raise their dogs in their homes and truly care about their health and well-being.

[NorthwestMom]

 

 

In looking around today I discovered there's a big Dog Fest this Saturday north of Baltimore.  I'm so excited.  It looks like there are going to be many different rescues and shelters from MD and Southern PA participating.  It will definitely be worth the hour's drive.

 

Here's hoping. 

 

We got our lab mix at exactly that type of fair. He's been a wonderful addition to the family! Good luck!

[Bluegoat]

Comparing the development of the great bird-dog breeds that now exist (thanks to human selection) to "ignorance of 19th century eugenics supporters" is mind boggling. There were no dog breeds with the consistent and specialized qualities one finds in modern gun dogs prior to human selection.

 

Responsable breeders take COI strongly into account when arranging matings. Often this means importing dogs from afar at great expense. 

 

Anytime genetic diversity is narrowed there is a risk of concentrating problems. That is why the ethical standards of breed clubs requires medical testing prior to breeding to work towards breeding genetic problems out. There have been breeds where bad breeding has undermined breed health. That is true. But these problems have been caused by bad practices, and generally by breeding for "show" over function. There are breeds (like English Bulldogs) where I'd strongly support opening the studbooks, and allowing conscious dog breeders to make approved out-crosses to attempt to rejuvenate a once noble breed.

 

On the other hand, the concentrated genetics makes gun dogs what they are. If you don't understand this you are missing the plot. 

 

Just throwing together a husky and a lab and hoping for the best is an absurd way to breed a bird-dog.

 

You are creating a false dichotomy here.  The choices aren't - don't breed for utility at all or accept the purebred dog/kennel club system.  Humans breeding intentionally does not require the system of pure-bred breeding and closed stud books we have now.  If you don't realize that individual dog breeds exist before they ever develop an official standard and admit particular dogs to it, you've lost the plot.  For the vast majority of dogs, that system did not even exist until the modern era, but dogs bred for specific types of work, and with identifiable regional characteristics, have existed for far longer than that.

 

Chesapeake Bay Retrievers probably never had the really good dogs even registered, those genetics were totally lost to the "purebred" dog stock, much the same is true of tollers.  Jack Russel Terriers are only recently a registered breed, as are border collies. Sled dogs are bred for function, and somehow that is managed without the need for them to be "pure."  Locally to me we have something called the "Valley Bulldog" which you won't find in any kennel club list. 

 

The movement to establish the kennel clubs and closed books was directly related to the eugenics movement - it was based on the idea, which came out of early evolutionary theory, that if you had a set of close to "perfect" animals (or, possibly, people,) and you cut out other imperfect influences, you could breed a more perfect animal.  This is not controversial history, it is well established in the beginnings of the kennel clubs.  And the people who were interested in them were in many cases also interested in human eugenics, because the theory seemed like it would apply to people as much as to dogs. 

 

The problem is that even aside from the ethical issue in applying it to humans, it turned out that the science was inadequate.  The ideas about heredity that led to the decision to set breed standards and have closed stud books was simply incorrect.  That is not something those people could have known (though breeders of serious working animals and livestock figured it out rather quickly which is why purebreds have limited utility in agriculture) and there is no reason to look down on them for that error.  

 

We are not in that position. We know far more about genetics, while they knew nothing almost nothing. We know quite well that closed breed books do nothing for dog breeding, and in fact are a danger - even when breeders are careful, you still are limiting genetic variation for no good reason - even when it would clearly be beneficial to the utility of the dog not to do so.  We know that breed standards tend to cause problems because they don't easily account for necessary physical variations in a population, and they tend to take on a life of their own when they are even somewhat divorced from working.  We know that they have not preserved dog breeds but have actually caused them to mutate at an astonishingly quick rate.  They just don't work the way the Victorians imagined that they would.  

 

The genetic studies make it pretty clear that it is already too late for many dog breeds - they are dangerously inbred, not to mention physically deformed, and even taking care to ensure maximum genetic variation (which doesn't happen most of the time, breeders are constantly compromising on this because it is how they can get the traits they want) doesn't add back what has already been lost.  Testing can weed out problems, but every time a dog is taking out of the breeding population, you also lose  perfectly good genetic diversity as well.  Every time a breeder sells a dog to be a non-reproducing pet, because he just isn't good enough for the show ring, that genetic diversity is removed from the population.

 

The system exists today only because people don't know better (no surprise given the propaganda the kennel club system produces about purebred dogs,) their egos are invested, or perhaps mostly because the whole thing represents a lot of money that moves around.  You often can't sell a useful cross for as much as a dog with papers.  There is absolutely no reason breeding of gun dogs, lap dogs, guard dogs, could not be done in the same way dogs were bred before the modern system, the same way that many working types like sled dogs and working agricultural animals are bred today.  If you want a good sled dog, you go to someone who produces great sled dogs.  He breeds in elements that he thinks will strengthen the abilities and health of the dogs he has, create the characteristics he wants.  He will probably use some predictable elements to do so.  Horse breeders looking for hunters or dressage horses do similar kinds of things.  There is every reason to abandon a system that has had as many negative consequences as this one, and where the people in charge seem to be quite willing to throw the dogs, and their actual use, out of the question entirely while doing everything they can to ensure the money keeps coming in.  I can't see a single good reason to keep a system like that.

 

[Bluegoat]

...

 

 

The thing that REALLY chaps my hide is not being able to take a WORKING LGD and keep him working. How many people do you think are going to take on a 100+ lb dog that's never been inside a house, and turn it into a pet? Besides the fact that the dog would go insane. These "rescues"  would rather see a Pyr or Akbash pine away for their flocks waiting for someone to rescue them--someone that probably has no clue what the dog needs to be doing. People have to move, sell their flocks or herds and then what happens to the dogs? The rescues won't let the dogs work. I've never given a penny to our rescue here and I never will. 

 

THis is something I've also noticed - there seems to, in many cases, be kind of a thing against real working dogs among rescue/dog people.

 

I notice it too on things like Facebook when they post stuff about how dogs should not live outside and it is cruel and unsafe and too cold.  Well - it can be, but that really depends on the dog and the circumstances.  Working dogs that live outdoors have pretty satisfying lives, IMO, compared to a lot of indoor dogs.  The same is true of cats I think, but there is agroup of rescue people who are completely dead set against any cats being outdoors, even if their main job is rodent control.  Yes - in some places it is just not at all safe to have a cat outside.  Yes, outdoor cats have a shorter lifespan.  But this assumption that a cat will have no difference in quality of life seems rather unjustified - we wouldn't ever say that about zoo animals. 

[Mimm]

This came across my Facebook feed the other day and deals directly with how rescues treat working animals.

 

http://www.bedlamfarm.com/2015/09/22/rethinking-the-ethics-of-animal-rescue/

[Spy Car]

You are creating a false dichotomy here.  The choices aren't - don't breed for utility at all or accept the purebred dog/kennel club system.  Humans breeding intentionally does not require the system of pure-bred breeding and closed stud books we have now.  If you don't realize that individual dog breeds exist before they ever develop an official standard and admit particular dogs to it, you've lost the plot.  For the vast majority of dogs, that system did not even exist until the modern era, but dogs bred for specific types of work, and with identifiable regional characteristics, have existed for far longer than that.

 

Chesapeake Bay Retrievers probably never had the really good dogs even registered, those genetics were totally lost to the "purebred" dog stock, much the same is true of tollers.  Jack Russel Terriers are only recently a registered breed, as are border collies. Sled dogs are bred for function, and somehow that is managed without the need for them to be "pure."  Locally to me we have something called the "Valley Bulldog" which you won't find in any kennel club list. 

 

The movement to establish the kennel clubs and closed books was directly related to the eugenics movement - it was based on the idea, which came out of early evolutionary theory, that if you had a set of close to "perfect" animals (or, possibly, people,) and you cut out other imperfect influences, you could breed a more perfect animal.  This is not controversial history, it is well established in the beginnings of the kennel clubs.  And the people who were interested in them were in many cases also interested in human eugenics, because the theory seemed like it would apply to people as much as to dogs. I'll grant you that. I'm opposed sloppy and irresposnable breeding, and not protecting the working natures of great breeds.

 

The problem is that even aside from the ethical issue in applying it to humans, it turned out that the science was inadequate.  The ideas about heredity that led to the decision to set breed standards and have closed stud books was simply incorrect.  That is not something those people could have known (though breeders of serious working animals and livestock figured it out rather quickly which is why purebreds have limited utility in agriculture) and there is no reason to look down on them for that error.  

 

We are not in that position. We know far more about genetics, while they knew nothing almost nothing. We know quite well that closed breed books do nothing for dog breeding, and in fact are a danger - even when breeders are careful, you still are limiting genetic variation for no good reason - even when it would clearly be beneficial to the utility of the dog not to do so.  We know that breed standards tend to cause problems because they don't easily account for necessary physical variations in a population, and they tend to take on a life of their own when they are even somewhat divorced from working.  We know that they have not preserved dog breeds but have actually caused them to mutate at an astonishingly quick rate.  They just don't work the way the Victorians imagined that they would.  

 

The genetic studies make it pretty clear that it is already too late for many dog breeds - they are dangerously inbred, not to mention physically deformed, and even taking care to ensure maximum genetic variation (which doesn't happen most of the time, breeders are constantly compromising on this because it is how they can get the traits they want) doesn't add back what has already been lost.  Testing can weed out problems, but every time a dog is taking out of the breeding population, you also lose  perfectly good genetic diversity as well.  Every time a breeder sells a dog to be a non-reproducing pet, because he just isn't good enough for the show ring, that genetic diversity is removed from the population.

 

The system exists today only because people don't know better (no surprise given the propaganda the kennel club system produces about purebred dogs,) their egos are invested, or perhaps mostly because the whole thing represents a lot of money that moves around.  You often can't sell a useful cross for as much as a dog with papers.  There is absolutely no reason breeding of gun dogs, lap dogs, guard dogs, could not be done in the same way dogs were bred before the modern system, the same way that many working types like sled dogs and working agricultural animals are bred today.  If you want a good sled dog, you go to someone who produces great sled dogs.  He breeds in elements that he thinks will strengthen the abilities and health of the dogs he has, create the characteristics he wants.  He will probably use some predictable elements to do so.  Horse breeders looking for hunters or dressage horses do similar kinds of things.  There is every reason to abandon a system that has had as many negative consequences as this one, and where the people in charge seem to be quite willing to throw the dogs, and their actual use, out of the question entirely while doing everything they can to ensure the money keeps coming in.  I can't see a single good reason to keep a system like that.

 

You've mixed up so many truths, half-truths, false-hoods, and slander (equating dog breeder with supporters of human eugenics) that is it hard to know where to start in unraveling this mess.

 

I guess the biggest falsehood is that people who developed modern versatile gun-dogs "limiting genetic variation for no good reason," when nothing could be further from the truth. Modern breeds like Vizslas, Weimaraners, and German Shorthaired Pointers did not exist prior to the modern era (late-19th century) and the rise of the breed club system (despite the sometimes fanciful historical mythologies of thousand year old lineages invented for them my some).. It is only because genetic variation was limited that those breeds exist in their present form. All these dog breeds are marvels in the field. They far surpassed the qualities of "regional type dogs" that proceed them precisely because of selective breeding. Limiting gene pools has both risks and rewards. Bad breeding can amplify the downsides. Finding a great Weimaraner for the field is not as easy as it once was. There are downsides to breeding for the show-ring, breeding carelessly for the mass market, and not protecting hunting instincts that are at the forefront of the breeds qualities.

 

Those great qualities wouldn't exist in the same predictable way without selection.

 

Out crossing gun-dogs is very unlikely to improve the hunting qualities of those crossed dogs. The example of outcrossing a lab with a husky (which is not a bird-dog) is an especially absurd example. 

 

Sled dog racing is a totally different story. Many mushers cross Siberian Huskies, Malamutes, and other Northern Breeds to make "Alaskan Huskies" (not a recognized breed, but a type). But so what? Some of these dogs are also crossed with pointers (English Pointers and GSPs). This is do to the physical attributes of stamina speed, and size—but not for highly specialized hunting traits of the sort that are in-born in versatile dogs.

 

And versatile gun-dogs were what were under discussion. Not terriers, or sled-dogs.

 

There are reasons the modern system created bird dogs that were superior to the regional dogs that precede them, and that was due to careful selection by human beings which produced lines of dogs with spectacular abilities in the field.

 

Bill

[goldberry]

This came across my Facebook feed the other day and deals directly with how rescues treat working animals.

 

http://www.bedlamfarm.com/2015/09/22/rethinking-the-ethics-of-animal-rescue/

 

That's a powerful article.

[Spy Car]

This came across my Facebook feed the other day and deals directly with how rescues treat working animals.

 

http://www.bedlamfarm.com/2015/09/22/rethinking-the-ethics-of-animal-rescue/

 

Too many so-called animal rights groups really don't put the interests of animals first. It's a shame.

 

Bill

[Bluegoat]

You've mixed up so many truths, half-truths, false-hoods, and slander (equating dog breeder with supporters of human eugenics) that is it hard to know where to start in unraveling this mess.

 

I guess the biggest falsehood is that people who developed modern versatile gun-dogs "limiting genetic variation for no good reason," when nothing could be further from the truth. Modern breeds like Vizslas, Weimaraners, and German Shorthaired Pointers did not exist prior to the modern era (late-19th century) and the rise of the breed club system (despite the sometimes fanciful historical mythologies of thousand year old lineages invented for them my some).. It is only because genetic variation was limited that those breeds exist in their present form. All these dog breeds are marvels in the field. They far surpassed the qualities of "regional type dogs" that proceed them precisely because of selective breeding. Limiting gene pools has both risks and rewards. Bad breeding can amplify the downsides. Finding a great Weimaraner for the field is not as easy as it once was. There are downsides to breeding for the show-ring, breeding carelessly for the mass market, and not protecting hunting instincts that are at the forefront of the breeds qualities.

 

Those great qualities wouldn't exist in the same predictable way without selection.

 

Out crossing gun-dogs is very unlikely to improve the hunting qualities of those crossed dogs. The example of outcrossing a lab with a husky (which is not a bird-dog) is an especially absurd example. 

 

Sled dog racing is a totally different story. Many mushers cross Siberian Huskies, Malamutes, and other Northern Breeds to make "Alaskan Huskies" (not a recognized breed, but a type). But so what? Some of these dogs are also crossed with pointers (English Pointers and GSPs). This is do to the physical attributes of stamina speed, and size—but not for highly specialized hunting traits of the sort that are in-born in versatile dogs.

 

And versatile gun-dogs were what were under discussion. Not terriers, or sled-dogs.

 

There are reasons the modern system created bird dogs that were superior to the regional dogs that precede them, and that was due to careful selection by human beings which produced lines of dogs with spectacular abilities in the field.

 

Bill

 

You've rather made my point Bill.  Newer breeds were created by crossing dogs of other breeds, or that were not purebred at all.  The idea that they are "better" is pretty debatable, but if it were true, it seems to indicate that crossbreeding can work well. 

 

A husky lab cross is evidently not a crazy idea, given that it worked so very well, but even conceptually it isn't that odd that a program for breeding gun dogs might like an infusion of what huskies can offer.  A first generation cross might well be less reliable, but you can always cross back. 

 

You have again utterly missed the point about sled dogs - those breeding programs work on utility, and they produce better dogs, on average, than "purebred" sled dog kennels.  They also do not use only northern type dogs in their programs - pointers for example are a common component. 

 

ETA - the relationships of the beginnings of the kennel club system to the eugenics movement are well established and easy to find with minimal research.

 

[mommaduck]

Princess Mommy check into Dixie dogs or Carolina Coonhound Rescue. Good dogs, minimal shedding, medium sized, great inside and out, love kids, and most are adults. If you had been looking a year ago, I would have had one for you. I had to give up my rescue and her pups when we moved (we had zero options).

[katilac]

 <snip>  The same is true of cats I think, but there is agroup of rescue people who are completely dead set against any cats being outdoors, even if their main job is rodent control.  Yes - in some places it is just not at all safe to have a cat outside.  Yes, outdoor cats have a shorter lifespan.  But this assumption that a cat will have no difference in quality of life seems rather unjustified - we wouldn't ever say that about zoo animals. 

 

When people tell me my cats would be safer if they never went outside, I say "so would my kids." 

[plansrme]

Thought some on this thread might be interested in a story I heard from a friend I ran into today.  I knew from Facebook that her two mixed-breed dogs were missing and asked for their status.  They're home, it turns out, after being missing for over two weeks, but she has been told by the police not to publicize that fact.  It turns out that a local "rescue" has been stealing dogs--hers included--and essentially selling them for the adoption fee.  There is a lot more to this story, but the local police department recently started a division to investigate dog thefts.  My friend's dogs are not the first to have been "rescued" and then sold for the adoption fee by this woman or others who are operating similarly.  It turns out that their dogs were stolen from their backyard in a ten-minute period when they were gone.  The so-called rescuer had even had them at an adoption event at Petsmart.  

[kiana]

Yeah, this is why my mother bought a puppy from a breeder. Not even the local humane society will approve a home without a fenced yard. It's a multi-acre farm, someone is home all day and the dog runs around outside under supervision whenever someone is working outside, which is most of the day.

 

She got a purebred cattle dog (what they wanted) for $150 from a breeder she knows on a strict promise to spay at the absolute earliest proper time -- the dog has a slight underbite and is not suitable for breeding. It is *really* minor and you'd never notice if you weren't looking really closely.

[PrincessMommy]

Thought some on this thread might be interested in a story I heard from a friend I ran into today.  I knew from Facebook that her two mixed-breed dogs were missing and asked for their status.  They're home, it turns out, after being missing for over two weeks, but she has been told by the police not to publicize that fact.  It turns out that a local "rescue" has been stealing dogs--hers included--and essentially selling them for the adoption fee.  There is a lot more to this story, but the local police department recently started a division to investigate dog thefts.  My friend's dogs are not the first to have been "rescued" and then sold for the adoption fee by this woman or others who are operating similarly.  It turns out that their dogs were stolen from their backyard in a ten-minute period when they were gone.  The so-called rescuer had even had them at an adoption event at Petsmart.  

 

whoa... yikes. 

[Pawz4me]

Thought some on this thread might be interested in a story I heard from a friend I ran into today.  I knew from Facebook that her two mixed-breed dogs were missing and asked for their status.  They're home, it turns out, after being missing for over two weeks, but she has been told by the police not to publicize that fact.  It turns out that a local "rescue" has been stealing dogs--hers included--and essentially selling them for the adoption fee.  There is a lot more to this story, but the local police department recently started a division to investigate dog thefts.  My friend's dogs are not the first to have been "rescued" and then sold for the adoption fee by this woman or others who are operating similarly.  It turns out that their dogs were stolen from their backyard in a ten-minute period when they were gone.  The so-called rescuer had even had them at an adoption event at Petsmart.  

 

From what I understand the even more likely scenario involves stolen purebred dogs being offered on Craigslist for hefty "rehoming" fees.  The Petsmarts here are pretty stringent about checking out the rescue groups they allow to use their premises.  The SPCA I volunteer with had to jump through many hoops.

[PrincessMommy]

I thought I should update.  We didn't get a dog.  In fact the experience was a bust.   It was hosted by the Balti. animal shelter and they had a nice facility there.  They had about 10-15dogs.  1 was a Chihuahua and the rest were Pits. 

 

So we forged forth to all the other rescue/shelter booths.  Less than 5 shelter/rescues actually had a handful of adoptable dogs.  Most of those were too young or just not the right dog.   I think we only actually looked at 4 dogs.  Most of the rescues/shelters supplied photos of doggies you could look through.  I can do that at home.   They were all selling merchandise.  It was really just a waste of our time and my son and I were pretty discouraged.   There was a pet adoption event close to our home that I suggested we visit on the way home, but son said no, he doesn't like dog rescues anymore. 

[Guest]

I'm sorry you've had a bad experience. I have had rejection and silence over trying to adopt. They're clearly not interested in a family with kids and no fence who wants an indoor family dog and would rather run the dog in person than let it go nuts in the yard unsupervised. Screw them, TBH.

[PrincessMommy]

I'm sorry you've had a bad experience. I have had rejection and silence over trying to adopt. They're clearly not interested in a family with kids and no fence who wants an indoor family dog and would rather run the dog in person than let it go nuts in the yard unsupervised. Screw them, TBH.

 

that's exactly how I feel. 

[Guest]

I thought I should update. We didn't get a dog. In fact the experience was a bust. It was hosted by the Balti. animal shelter and they had a nice facility there. They had about 10-15dogs. 1 was a Chihuahua and the rest were Pits.

 

So we forged forth to all the other rescue/shelter booths. Less than 5 shelter/rescues actually had a handful of adoptable dogs. Most of those were too young or just not the right dog. I think we only actually looked at 4 dogs. Most of the rescues/shelters supplied photos of doggies you could look through. I can do that at home. They were all selling merchandise. It was really just a waste of our time and my son and I were pretty discouraged. There was a pet adoption event close to our home that I suggested we visit on the way home, but son said no, he doesn't like dog rescues anymore.

With all that headache it's probably just time to find a breeder unless a local family on Craiglist is rehoming their dog. We have quite a few free animals up there where there is either a minor training issue or the family is moving and cannot take the dog, and your area might be similar?

[Butter]

I can't believe the trouble you are having trying to adopt a dog!  It just seems so crazy.  When we decided we wanted a dog, we went to an adoption event with the Animal Defense League.  They were opening a new shelter and it was in combination with the celebration of that.  We looked at three of four dogs and picked Lola.  They obviously knew we had kids (5, 7, 12, and 13 at the time) since they were with us.  We filled out a form that was just our info and who our vet was (we wrote none in that spot since we had no pets), paid the $40 fee (normally $75 for non-purebred dogs over 4 months old, but lower for the event) and took her home.  She had been spayed and given her first shots at the shelter.  It truly could not have been easier.

[AngelaVA]

We live in Virginia and the rescues are absolutely ridiculous. The fees, the inspections, the long waits only to find out the dog is gone. And if you want a puppy they basically consider you a criminal. We ended up getting talked into an adult dog, the lied about his age and other things, he isn't a dangerous dog but he's really fearful and it's been a ton of work for me training wise (way more than a puppy) and he's not really a pet to anyone but me. I rather regret getting him but I don't want to put him through more trauma returning him after how far he's come with me. Try number 2 to get a pet for our children and our whole family as originally intended, we were intending to just go to a breeder but wound up finding a shelter in rural West Virginia with 3 different litters of puppies that we just dropped off and we got a darling little mixed breed dog that I think is mostly dachshund by her looks. I think I would always get a puppy from now on, yes they pee and chew things but it is so so much easier to train and bond with a puppy.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[PrincessMommy]

I can't believe the trouble you are having trying to adopt a dog!  It just seems so crazy.  When we decided we wanted a dog, we went to an adoption event with the Animal Defense League.  They were opening a new shelter and it was in combination with the celebration of that.  We looked at three of four dogs and picked Lola.  They obviously knew we had kids (5, 7, 12, and 13 at the time) since they were with us.  We filled out a form that was just our info and who our vet was (we wrote none in that spot since we had no pets), paid the $40 fee (normally $75 for non-purebred dogs over 4 months old, but lower for the event) and took her home.  She had been spayed and given her first shots at the shelter.  It truly could not have been easier.

 

My troubles definitely seem to be location specific.  If the shelters had more choices than pits and rottweilers then I'd just go there and have no trouble.   The adorable bassett/Shepard mix I saw at my local shelter was the one who bit children.  They wouldn't even let me meet her.   I've noticed that Huskies have gotten strangely popular in my area.  I don't understand this and I keep waiting to see more at the shelter, but they haven't shown up yet. 

 

Wow!  $40 from a shelter!   ours is $150 for shelter dogs. Rescues are in the $300 range, so not as bad as the $1000 I've seen others talk about. 

 

At this point I'm looking to go rural where I can find some hound/mix choices. 

[ScoutTN]

I know of a rescue that charges a mere 1800.00 for a dog.  That is the fee even for a mutt.  There is one on the west coast that has a fee over 2000.00 and the list of requirements is hysterical.  

 

 

Someone could fly here to TN, get a good dog and fly back to CA with the dog, for less than that!

[texasmama]

Someone could fly here to TN, get a good dog and fly back to CA with the dog, for less than that!

Or to Texas.  We are overflowing with dogs.

[Little Women]

I've been looking at Craigslist but worried people might lie about how good their doggy is with kids or other dogs.   It's nice to see some people have had positive experiences on there.

 

Our shelter is okay...but 80%  of the dogs are pits.  I do not want a pit... esp. a rescue pit with no background.  I know they check to make sure they're good with kids, etc., but there's just too many bad stories out there.  

 

Our shelter has a lot of pits, too.    And dh has an "aura" or something that puts a lot of adult dogs off--he's a nice guy, but they don't seem to know that.   So we have had trouble trying to adopt that way.  I think we'd need a puppy.

[Wildcat]

At this point I'm looking to go rural where I can find some hound/mix choices. 

 

Have you thought about calling vets in your area to see if anyone has posted notices? Vets in my area have boards where people post lost/found notices and notices for free puppies/kittens/cats/dogs.

 

If you have Facebook, you could probably post something there, too, as it seems someone always knows someone who is trying to find a home for a cat or dog, so word might get around for you that way.

 

I'm sorry for the troubles you are having. We went through something similar when looking for a dog and wound up going to a breeder.

[Matryoshka]

I thought I should update.  We didn't get a dog.  In fact the experience was a bust.   It was hosted by the Balti. animal shelter and they had a nice facility there.  They had about 10-15dogs.  1 was a Chihuahua and the rest were Pits. 

 

I'm so sorry it didn't end up working out.  We had similar experiences when we were looking for our dog.  The shelters were full of, yes, pit bulls and chihuahuas.  Tons and tons of pit bulls and chihuahuas.  Anything else they had, we were also told were not good dogs for first-time owners (neither dh nor I ever had a dog before - we're cat people).

 

Dd (then 12) was the one who wanted the dog.  I made her do all the looking.  She emailed lots of rescues with no response after filling in the questionnaire, and/or the dog she liked online was gone.  We finally (after about a year of looking) found a rescue willing to work with us - in spite of only having a partial fence.  But I'm still not sure they would have if our youngest kid wasn't already 12yo.  And I sure wouldn't have held out looking - dd was the one doing it.

 

(And about that fence - 2 weeks after we got the dog, she bolted out the door when someone came to it, ran around the fence, and was missing 1.5  weeks.  We've added a mesh fence on the 4th side, dumb dog... )

 

[school17777]

Deb,

 

There is a puppy boutique near me that sells little dogs. Many people around here buy from there. If you are interested in a little dogs (like Bichon, Shitzu, etc), I can send you the link.