Weight loss - some honest data to consider

[Carrie12345]

I think the same thing is true for the trend toward more protein and fat nowadays.  More protein may be good.  I tend to think chugging down drinks made from protein powder that likely has all sorts of artificial crap in it is likely not good.  Fat may not be so bad as we used to think, but I tend to think putting a gob of butter or coconut oil in your coffee--ingesting that much fat with no other nutrients to go along with it, with the idea that it's somehow good for you--is ludicrous.

 

JMHO, of course.

 

There's certainly a lot that's still unknown and a bunch that's questionable but interesting.

I'm personally intrigued by the small studies on coconut oil (2Tbs/day for weight loss IIRC,) but mostly because I'm a fan of coconut oil, lol.

I agree with the people who talk about protein requirements being higher than the USDA recommends, mostly because I feel so much better with much more protein than the suggested amounts.

 

There is NEVER going to be a perfect universal diet.  I know that much!

[Jane in NC]

I think the same thing is true for the trend toward more protein and fat nowadays.  More protein may be good.  I tend to think chugging down drinks made from protein powder that likely has all sorts of artificial crap in it is likely not good.  Fat may not be so bad as we used to think, but I tend to think putting a gob of butter or coconut oil in your coffee--ingesting that much fat with no other nutrients to go along with it, with the idea that it's somehow good for you--is ludicrous.

 

JMHO, of course.

 

Part of this may be tied to the perception that if a little of ____ is good for you, a lot must be better.  Balance is lost--although I think we all agree that my "balance" is different than yours.

 

This ties into exercise too, I think, especially with teens.  Most kids I know play lots of recreational sports before age 12.  Suddenly things tend to get very serious so those who aren't particularly good at a sport stop playing.  In my community there are few recreational sports options for teens.  I think as a society we send some strange messages to kids. 

 

[Laura Corin]

 

The wartime rationing is interesting,because sugar was rationed as well as general calories, meat, etc. 

 

General calories weren't actually rationed: you could eat as many potatoes as you could grow or buy.  Sugar was rationed because farmland was turned over to other crops and shipping lanes were disrupted: no one wanted to put mariners' lives at risk for sugar.  It was a high complex carbohydrate (lots of potatoes and veg, but not much fruit), low protein, low fat, low sugar diet.  It's more or less how I ate growing up and my current diet has a similar balance plus more fruit (no SPAM or whale steaks though!)

 

[kiana]

This ties into exercise too, I think, especially with teens.  Most kids I know play lots of recreational sports before age 12.  Suddenly things tend to get very serious so those who aren't particularly good at a sport stop playing.  In my community there are few recreational sports options for teens.  I think as a society we send some strange messages to kids. 

 

Yes yes yes.

 

We don't HAVE pickup games of baseball or football or whatever in most places that are open to even kids who are horrible at it. We have organized leagues instead and the older you get the less open they are to unfit or uncoordinated kids. This is terrible. We are basically telling kids "Oh if you aren't good at/interested in/fit enough to play sports, your options are a treadmill or couch potato". 

 

We should encourage more recreational sports and even more importantly, we should try to get kids out for less structured electronics-free time *outside*. 

[regentrude]

We don't HAVE pickup games of baseball or football or whatever in most places that are open to even kids who are horrible at it. We have organized leagues instead and the older you get the less open they are to unfit or uncoordinated kids. This is terrible. We are basically telling kids "Oh if you aren't good at/interested in/fit enough to play sports, your options are a treadmill or couch potato". 

 

We should encourage more recreational sports and even more importantly, we should try to get kids out for less structured electronics-free time *outside*. 

 

yes to the above. And the best way to accomplish this may be to actually do the activity with the kids - at least when they are younger and still want to do things with their parents.. Adults would certainly benefit from more physical activity as well.

 

ETA: When I was growing up, the general recommendation in my home country was that school age kids should play outside after school for a minimum of 2 hours a day.

[LibraryLover]

The best thing I noticed about a tiny amount of coconut oil in my coffee ( which I read about here) is that my lips didn't need balm all morning. Lol. Tenacious stuff! live in a dry painfully dry climate. Maybe instead of 1/2&'1/2 today, I'll do a drop or two of co. It is delicious. ;)

 

On Center for science newsletter? They lead the low/no fat craze. They are partly why vegetables fats are on your popcorn. I like their stand on sugar, and junk food, and they push veggies, which is great, but they are still saying all fat bad, canola oil good etc

[SeaConquest]

I have a ton of obesity in my family, so I feel predisposed to it. I've always been able to gain both fat and muscle easily. Losing has been a different matter altogether.

 

My weight was normal as a child. In 9th grade, I started lifting weights, as part of cheerleading, and cried when I broke 130 pounds (I am 5'4"). I didn't understand that I was gaining muscle.

 

At the end of 11th grade, I stopped playing sports and immediately ballooned to 165 lbs. I ran with an Army recruiter to drop weight, and squeaked into the Army at 150 lbs. I couldn't pass the weight requirement (which was 125ish), but could pass the body fat requirements (again, because I carry a lot of muscle).

 

6 years of Army Special Operations, and, even during my most intense training regimen, I never dropped below 145 lbs. I ate low fat/high-carb, which was de rigueur at the time, and was a vegetarian.

 

Once I got out of the Army, and stopped training like a maniac, my weight just took off. Before I could even blink, I was over 200. Suddenly, I found myself at 225-230 in my late 20s. I struggled with crippling depression and anxiety. I was hirsute and had cystic acne and irregular periods. I tried every diet and workout. Nothing worked. My mom assumed that I was eating bon bons, and gave me a ton of crap about my weight. I came to stay with her for awhile, after my divorce, and, once she saw how much I was training and what I was eating, she finally conceded that something must be wrong with my body. She sent me to an endo.

 

The endo dx me with PCOS, and told me that my insulin resistance was so bad that I was a "lean, mean, fat-storing machine." I went on Metformin to correct the insulin resistance, and began to lose a modest amount of weight. The acne began to get better. The length of my cycles became more regular. I took antidepressants for my moods. I competed in triathlons, but was still over 200 pounds and unable to lose more weight.

 

In my mid-30s, I was diagnosed with bipolar disorder and ADHD (inattentive type). In addition to the anti-depressants, I was put on Dexedrine (speed) and a mood stabilizer known for weight loss (Topamax). I suddenly knew what thin people felt like. It was so freeing. I actually had to remind myself to eat. I still trained at the gym like a mad dog, but finally, the weight came off. I dropped to 145-150 -- pretty much the same weight I had been in the Army. I was a size 6. My mood and skin were great, my cycles were regular. 

 

Then, I got pregnant. I had to go off all my meds. I gained 85 lbs during the pregnancy. Boom. Right back to 230+ lbs again. Just like that. Depression was horrible. The worst. I was completely nonfunctional. It got so bad that I finally had to stop nursing and go back on my meds. Things got better. Slowly. The pregnancy weight started to come off. Slowly. I fluctuated between 175-190, depending on the cocktail of meds I was taking.

 

Then, I got pregnant again. Back to 230 and developed pre-diabetes at 40. Stayed that way for a year until I finally went to a new endo, and begged him to put me on Victoza to try to correct the insulin resistance that had again gotten out of control. My psychiatrist also ran genetic testing. I am compound heterozygous for MTHFR, which is the worst variant. In the 7 months that I have been on Victoza (and the supplements for MTHFR), I have lost 15 lbs. I am 210 pounds, and eat a mostly plant-based diet. My moods are great. My skin is great. I ovulate regularly. The pre-diabetes is gone.

 

For me, it is clear that this is not just about CICO. There are serious and complicated hormonal/genetic issues at play. One of the things that I have learned is the role glutathione plays in the pathophysiology of obesity, bipolar disorder, and MTHFR. For me, these are all connected, and it has become obvious that there is some breakdown in my glutathione levels. Victoza increases glutathione, so, not surprisingly, it has helped treat both my mood and the obesity/IR. Both my psychiatrist and my endo admit that we are in the infant stages of treating these conditions.    

[Bluegoat]

This thread has made me more interested in what other people have in their grocery carts.  Obviously, this is about as far away from a scientific study as it could be, but what I observed was that people who look fit and healthy tend to have a lot of fresh produce in their carts and very few packaged foods.  People who do not look very fit tend to have a lot of packaged foods - often numerous boxes of things like pop tarts, sugary cereals, cookies, etc.  

 

I've never been particularly interested in other people's carts before, but I was feeling bad about my own opinion of the CICO - that it works (based on my own experience).  After reading all of the posts against CICO I thought I'd see lots of people that didn't look very fit with carts full of very healthy foods, but I didn't.  Again - certainly not a scientific study but I was surprised at how consistent the cart contents were.

 

When I worked doing grocery check-out, this sort of observation was my main entertainment.  And I would say something similar - overall, there was a divide between processed and unprocessed foods, and apparent health.  There was also an economic divide somewhat along the same lines. 

[EmseB]

 

For me, it is clear that this is not just about CICO. There are serious and complicated hormonal/genetic issues at play. One of the things that I have learned is the role glutathione plays in the pathophysiology of obesity, bipolar disorder, and MTHFR. For me, these are all connected, and it has become obvious that there is some breakdown in my glutathione levels. Victoza increases glutathione, so, not surprisingly, it has helped treat both my mood and the obesity/IR. Both my psychiatrist and my endo admit that we are in the infant stages of treating these conditions.    

 

Here's what I'm getting from all these posts:  if CICO is not working for you (as in, if you are eating less and eating differently and moving more and not losing weight), then it is a signal that there is a medical problem that needs to be diagnosed, not that the principles of eat less/differently and move more is incorrect.  The fact that CICO doesn't work for a specific person is a signal that something is off with thyroid/hormones/etc.  Generally speaking,  I think, after reading all of this, that CICO can be helpful baseline for people to know if they have other medical problems or not.  If you (general) are routinely eating less, moving more and you can't lose weight the principle of CICO says, "get to a doctor".

[Bluegoat]

 

As for grocery carts, etc, etc, etc, I suspect it's best to remember the difference between statistics and individuals.  Stats only apply to large groups - never to individuals.  I think the stats we see are correct - that exercise and healthy eating via veggies, fruits, and getting a diet to match the individual (low carb or low fat or similar) will help the majority of the population.  There will always be outliers though as stats never apply to the individual.

 

Yes, this.

 

I always assume people take this for granted that when talking about an observation of a group, it is a population based observation and will not apply to all individuals.  That is just the nature of any kind of observation about a population.

 

[mommymilkies]

Here's what I'm getting from all these posts:  if CICO is not working for you (as in, if you are eating less and eating differently and moving more and not losing weight), then it is a signal that there is a medical problem that needs to be diagnosed, not that the principles of eat less/differently and move more is incorrect.  The fact that CICO doesn't work for a specific person is a signal that something is off with thyroid/hormones/etc.  Generally speaking,  I think, after reading all of this, that CICO can be helpful baseline for people to know if they have other medical problems or not.  If you (general) are routinely eating less, moving more and you can't lose weight the principle of CICO says, "get to a doctor".

I can see that.  But look at the current statistics for adults with metabolic disorders.  40% of American adults are diabetic or prediabetic. Does that include the very widespread PCOS?  And it certainly doesn't include all thyroid disorders or other conditions.  So saying CICO is the gold standard ignores the fact that we have an epidemic of people for whom CICO probably is not the key.  

[Bluegoat]

yes to the above. And the best way to accomplish this may be to actually do the activity with the kids - at least when they are younger and still want to do things with their parents.. Adults would certainly benefit from more physical activity as well.

 

ETA: When I was growing up, the general recommendation in my home country was that school age kids should play outside after school for a minimum of 2 hours a day.

 

Now the recommendation - or the reality, really -  seems to be that should take a back-seat to homework.

 

[creekland]

I always assume people take this for granted that when talking about an observation of a group, it is a population based observation and will not apply to all individuals.  That is just the nature of any kind of observation about a population.

 

 

It actually can be a difficult concept for people to remember.  We're more or less wired to want to fit in, therefore, if we find an area where we don't, then the assessment is wrong (in our eyes as humans).  We rarely think we're the outlier not fitting the assessment.

 

It's human nature and applies to many different observations, not just weight/diet, etc.

[Pawz4me]

I can see that.  But look at the current statistics for adults with metabolic disorders.  40% of American adults are diabetic or prediabetic. Does that include the very widespread PCOS?  And it certainly doesn't include all thyroid disorders or other conditions.  So saying CICO is the gold standard ignores the fact that we have an epidemic of people for whom CICO probably is not the key.  

 

My DH is pre-diabetic.

 

CICO would work just fine for him.  If he'd actually do it.  I had him fired up and eating low(er) carb last summer and he dropped ten pounds in no time.  But then he gradually slipped back into eating too much ice cream and chips.  And he'll admit to anybody who asks that it's simply due to lack of "want to."  He simply doesn't want to stop eating the foods he loves.

[regentrude]

Now the recommendation - or the reality, really -  seems to be that should take a back-seat to homework.

 

 

Don't get me started. The school day in this country is ridiculously long, with nothing to show for. Back home, elementary school kids get out at 11am or noon. They have a little bit of homework, but not overly much.

Here , kids kept in school for a huge amount of time that is completely age inappropriate and then have homework. You'd wonder what they are thinking: if they can't manage to teach it to them in the seven hours they are in the school, homework won't accomplish that either.

Off my soap box.

 

[mommymilkies]

My DH is pre-diabetic.

 

CICO would work just fine for him.  If he'd actually do it.  I had him fired up and eating low(er) carb last summer and he dropped ten pounds in no time.  But then he gradually slipped back into eating too much ice cream and chips.  And he'll admit to anybody who asks that it's simply due to lack of "want to."  He simply doesn't want to stop eating the foods he loves.

But not for everyone.  My dh is Type 1 and no matter what he eats, he never ever gets full.  It's ridiculous.  But he also hasn't gained a single pound in over 20 years.  Talk about unfair. :p 

[EmseB]

I can see that.  But look at the current statistics for adults with metabolic disorders.  40% of American adults are diabetic or prediabetic. Does that include the very widespread PCOS?  And it certainly doesn't include all thyroid disorders or other conditions.  So saying CICO is the gold standard ignores the fact that we have an epidemic of people for whom CICO probably is not the key.  

 

 

Regardless of statistics, if you (general) are eating healthy, and consistently exercising and burning more calories than you are consuming and you are not losing weight and having metabolic problems you need to see a doctor.  If you are diabetic, prediabetic, have PCOS, have thyroid issues, or any other metabolic issues, then you need to see a doctor.  Often, one of the first symptoms of those problems is that reasonable eating and exercising doesn't lead to significant weight loss. Sometimes (particularly in the case of Type II) diet and exercise can actually change the course of those diseases.

 

You are confusing what I'm saying here.  I'm not saying CICO is the key to weight loss, I'm saying the fact that it isn't working properly means something else is probably going on, including those things you mention above.  I'm dubious that a majority of people need major surgery or a cocktail of meds to lose weight and/or be healthy, but some people do.  And one of the symptoms of those problems is not being able to lose weight by doing things that would cause a healthy body to shed pounds.

[EmseB]

But not for everyone.  My dh is Type 1 and no matter what he eats, he never ever gets full.  It's ridiculous.  But he also hasn't gained a single pound in over 20 years.  Talk about unfair. :p

 

Type I is a completely different animal.

[kiana]

Don't get me started. The school day in this country is ridiculously long, with nothing to show for. Back home, elementary school kids get out at 11am or noon. They have a little bit of homework, but not overly much.

Here , kids kept in school for a huge amount of time that is completely age inappropriate and then have homework. You'd wonder what they are thinking: if they can't manage to teach it to them in the seven hours they are in the school, homework won't accomplish that either.

Off my soap box.

 

One of the things that they tell me in martial arts was "more of what's already not working won't make it work better". I think it applies to many more areas of life. 

[Pawz4me]

But not for everyone.  My dh is Type 1 and no matter what he eats, he never ever gets full.  It's ridiculous.  But he also hasn't gained a single pound in over 20 years.  Talk about unfair. :p

 

Yeah, I know.  And not all diabetes is related to weight.  My own father was a skinny Type II diabetic.  So even though I try to watch my weight closely, I've got that niggling fear in the back of my mind that I'm doomed to develop it anyway.  Or one of my boys may be.  Sigh.

 

I guess the one thing I can't wrap my mind around about the idea that there's some not-yet-discovered hormonal/endocrine issue going on in people who can't lose weight is this -- When my thyroid went bad I had many symptoms.  It was obvious that something was very wrong with various parts of my body.  It wasn't just that I gained ten pounds quickly despite not eating/exercising any differently, and that I couldn't manage to lose it.  There were lots of issues, and many of them were measurable (worsening cholesterol and blood glucose numbers, lowered BP and heart rate, etc.).  And SeaConquest said the same thing about her PCOS--several different symptoms.  So I'm having a hard time understanding how there could be something similar to those things going on that would just cause easy weight gain or the inability to lose and not other symptoms, too.

[mommymilkies]

Type I is a completely different animal.

Yes, and not every Type 1 has the same metabolism issues. :)  That comment was just kind of tacked onto the end in reference to CICO not being the only thing that affects weight.  I just need to bottle up whatever makes dh (and his non-diabetic father who is pretty sedentary and never gains a pound which makes me think it's not the diabetes) not gain weight so I can finally eat a meal without feeling bad about myself, even if it's a salad. Heck, dh is type 1 and has hypothyroidism and never gained weight before getting on synthroid.  Hopefully our kids inherit his metabolism. ;)  Sorry for being confusing, I'm reading all of this and hate using multiquote for 50 different ideas and posts.

[mommymilkies]

Yeah, I know.  And not all diabetes is related to weight.  My own father was a skinny Type II diabetic.  So even though I try to watch my weight closely, I've got that niggling fear in the back of my mind that I'm doomed to develop it anyway.  Or one of my boys may be.  Sigh.

 

I guess the one thing I can't wrap my mind around about the idea that there's some not-yet-discovered hormonal/endocrine issue going on in people who can't lose weight is this -- When my thyroid went bad I had many symptoms.  It was obvious that something was very wrong with various parts of my body.  It wasn't just that I gained ten pounds quickly despite not eating/exercising any differently, and that I couldn't manage to lose it.  There were lots of issues, and many of them were measurable (worsening cholesterol and blood glucose numbers, lowered BP and heart rate, etc.).  And SeaConquest said the same thing about her PCOS--several different symptoms.  So I'm having a hard time understanding how there could be something similar to those things going on that would just cause easy weight gain or the inability to lose and not other measurable symptoms, too.

I'm not sure either.  It's all so confusing, and seems to be almost an epidemic at this point.  I refuse to believe it's just calories when I see the opposite every day with people I'm close to and when I worked in the hospital (and part of my job was recording exact input/output).  It's much more complex than just calories for some people, and it can get very frustrating defending yourself when you do what the doctors tell you and you're being accused of lying or being too stupid to know how much you've eaten. KWIM? 

[creekland]

I guess the one thing I can't wrap my mind around about the idea that there's some not-yet-discovered hormonal/endocrine issue going on in people who can't lose weight is this -- When my thyroid went bad I had many symptoms.  It was obvious that something was very wrong with various parts of my body.  It wasn't just that I gained ten pounds quickly despite not eating/exercising any differently, and that I couldn't manage to lose it.  There were lots of issues, and many of them were measurable (worsening cholesterol and blood glucose numbers, lowered BP and heart rate, etc.).  And SeaConquest said the same thing about her PCOS--several different symptoms.  So I'm having a hard time understanding how there could be something similar to those things going on that would just cause easy weight gain or the inability to lose and not other symptoms, too.

 

It might be difficult to grasp, but I definitely believe it could be out there.

 

So far I have...

 

- some type of asthma that affects lung capacity, but no other symptoms.  Doctors tend to not believe it's there - except for a couple of tests that have come up with it.

 

- carpal tunnel in both wrists that didn't cause most typical symptoms to where even the hand surgeon was uncertain if surgery would help.  (Nerve test showed it was at the "needs surgery" level.)  Once he did the surgery, he confirmed there was a very significant pinch matching the test.  Why I didn't have other issues from it was unexplainable.

 

- the brain tumor that doesn't cause usual symptoms.  I have double vision to the left and down, but get no headaches or other "stuff" from it that most do.

 

- had radiation for 29 days without any of the typical side effects including those that were practically guaranteed like skin burns and hair loss.  Hubby even went as far as to ask the doctor if I was in some sort of control group rather than actually getting the radiation.   :lol:

 

- the side effect I did get - losing the hunger feeling - is unexplained, esp lasting this long.

 

And the symptoms I have that bug the heck out of me at times have a cause that can not be determined.  :glare:   Apparently, it's all in my head - which may be true - but if so, the brain is very, very good at making things up.

 

It's frustrating to have them find (and sometimes fix) problems that don't bug me on the same scale, but be unable to fix what does - or even explain what's going on.  I am working on learning to live with the issues, but there are definitely times when it bothers me on a pretty high mental (and physical) level.

 

It's now easy for me to believe there are many health related deals we just don't know about or have answers for yet.  Outliers are out there.

[ktgrok]

Here's what I'm getting from all these posts:  if CICO is not working for you (as in, if you are eating less and eating differently and moving more and not losing weight), then it is a signal that there is a medical problem that needs to be diagnosed, not that the principles of eat less/differently and move more is incorrect.  The fact that CICO doesn't work for a specific person is a signal that something is off with thyroid/hormones/etc.  Generally speaking,  I think, after reading all of this, that CICO can be helpful baseline for people to know if they have other medical problems or not.  If you (general) are routinely eating less, moving more and you can't lose weight the principle of CICO says, "get to a doctor".

 

Well, I can say that no doctor has ever been of any help, (excluding bariatricsugeon, obviously). I've been overweight/obest/morbidly obese, begged for help, and been told to try walking daily or eating better. Thanks, hadn't thought of that. Right. 

 

The doctors just tell you CICO too.

[ktgrok]

Yeah, I know.  And not all diabetes is related to weight.  My own father was a skinny Type II diabetic.  So even though I try to watch my weight closely, I've got that niggling fear in the back of my mind that I'm doomed to develop it anyway.  Or one of my boys may be.  Sigh.

 

I guess the one thing I can't wrap my mind around about the idea that there's some not-yet-discovered hormonal/endocrine issue going on in people who can't lose weight is this -- When my thyroid went bad I had many symptoms.  It was obvious that something was very wrong with various parts of my body.  It wasn't just that I gained ten pounds quickly despite not eating/exercising any differently, and that I couldn't manage to lose it.  There were lots of issues, and many of them were measurable (worsening cholesterol and blood glucose numbers, lowered BP and heart rate, etc.).  And SeaConquest said the same thing about her PCOS--several different symptoms.  So I'm having a hard time understanding how there could be something similar to those things going on that would just cause easy weight gain or the inability to lose and not other symptoms, too.

 

Most obese people do have other symptoms,but those are blamed on the obesity and ignored otherwise. 

[SeaConquest]

Yeah, I know.  And not all diabetes is related to weight.  My own father was a skinny Type II diabetic.  So even though I try to watch my weight closely, I've got that niggling fear in the back of my mind that I'm doomed to develop it anyway.  Or one of my boys may be.  Sigh.

 

I guess the one thing I can't wrap my mind around about the idea that there's some not-yet-discovered hormonal/endocrine issue going on in people who can't lose weight is this -- When my thyroid went bad I had many symptoms.  It was obvious that something was very wrong with various parts of my body.  It wasn't just that I gained ten pounds quickly despite not eating/exercising any differently, and that I couldn't manage to lose it.  There were lots of issues, and many of them were measurable (worsening cholesterol and blood glucose numbers, lowered BP and heart rate, etc.).  And SeaConquest said the same thing about her PCOS--several different symptoms.  So I'm having a hard time understanding how there could be something similar to those things going on that would just cause easy weight gain or the inability to lose and not other symptoms, too.

 

Right, but keep in mind that the first doctor I went to with my symptoms (a GP with his MD from UCSF -- arguably, the best med school in the U.S.) ran all wrong bloodwork for PCOS and sent me on my merry little way saying, "There is just a lot we don't know about obesity, Monique." It was my mother who encouraged me to persist to a second opinion with an endo. And, why, with all those trips to the derm for treatment for cystic acne, did not one of them screen me for PCOS. Most women don't find out they have it until they try to have kids and have difficulty. By then, much of the havoc of insulin resistance has been wreaked on our bodies for years or decades.

 

I have had to be incredibly proactive about my healthcare to get the treatment that I've needed, and I am still not cured of this disease. 

[Catwoman]

Well, I can say that no doctor has ever been of any help, (excluding bariatricsugeon, obviously). I've been overweight/obest/morbidly obese, begged for help, and been told to try walking daily or eating better. Thanks, hadn't thought of that. Right.

 

The doctors just tell you CICO too.

That is an excellent point. There are good doctors out there who will work with you to find the root of the problem and then figure out how to treat it, but so many who treat you like a number and send you on your way without taking your concerns seriously.

 

Not related to weight, but don't get me started on how many so-called liver specialists and hematologists and other doctors never managed to figure out that my dh was developing cirrhosis. It makes me sick every time I think of how his current medical problems might have been prevented if even one of the doctors had put the pieces of the puzzle together instead of never bothering to analyze all of the data that was right in front of them. The information was right in front of them, had they cared enough to follow up on any of it.

[Pawz4me]

Most obese people do have other symptoms,but those are blamed on the obesity and ignored otherwise. 

 

But . ..are there symptoms other than ones that are commonly associated with weight gain?  I know there's the whole chicken and egg argument with a lot of this stuff.  But what I'm getting at (I think) is that with something like hypothyroidism there are symptoms that are the opposite of what one would normally expect with weight gain, like lowered BP and heart rate, and symptoms that aren't correlated with weight gain at all, like dry skin and brain fog.

 

When I was obese I honestly felt perfectly healthy.  I can't remember having any symptoms.

[Pawz4me]

Right, but keep in mind that the first doctor I went to with my symptoms (a GP with his MD from UCSF -- arguably, the best med school in the U.S.) ran all wrong bloodwork for PCOS and sent me on my merry little way saying, "There is just a lot we don't know about obesity, Monique." It was my mother who encouraged me to persist to a second opinion with an endo. And, why, with all those trips to the derm for treatment for cystic acne, did not one of them screen me for PCOS. Most women don't find out they have it until they try to have kids and have difficulty. By then, much of the havoc of insulin resistance has been wreaked on our bodies for years or decades.

 

I have had to be incredibly proactive about my healthcare to get the treatment that I've needed, and I am still not cured of this disease. 

 

I didn't know there was a cure for it?  I thought it was like hypothyroid -- once you've got it you've always got it.

[SeaConquest]

I didn't know there was a cure for it?  I thought it was like hypothyroid -- once you've got it you've always got it.

 

There isn't a cure per se. I mean that no one has been able to get to the root of these issues and put together a comprehensive, meaningful, and lasting treatment plan. Yes, I am no longer pre-diabetic (for now), and I am having a momentary period of stability, vis a vis my mood disorder, but I would hardly say that I am in some sort of remission. It just feels very temporary, until my body/IR/hormones get out of whack again, as they always seem to. And, it's hard to get excited about a 15 lb. loss when you still have another 60-70 to go -- even if those 15 lbs. have had a positive effect, you know? 

[kiana]

I didn't know there was a cure for it?  I thought it was like hypothyroid -- once you've got it you've always got it.

 

There isn't a cure, but if you *can* lose the weight it can help with many of the symptoms. I have this myself, and it was vicious during my early twenties. When I got out of the obese range I started cycling again without the pills, and now that I'm around 21% fat I am experiencing no symptoms (without medication) other than the stupid hirsuitism. 

 

Many people I know used Metformin or similar to get their blood sugars under control, or birth control pills, or a low-carb diet, but found that once they managed to hit normal weight range less medication was needed. 

[BooksandBoys]

Yeah, I know. And not all diabetes is related to weight. My own father was a skinny Type II diabetic. So even though I try to watch my weight closely, I've got that niggling fear in the back of my mind that I'm doomed to develop it anyway. Or one of my boys may be. Sigh.

 

I guess the one thing I can't wrap my mind around about the idea that there's some not-yet-discovered hormonal/endocrine issue going on in people who can't lose weight is this -- When my thyroid went bad I had many symptoms. It was obvious that something was very wrong with various parts of my body. It wasn't just that I gained ten pounds quickly despite not eating/exercising any differently, and that I couldn't manage to lose it. There were lots of issues, and many of them were measurable (worsening cholesterol and blood glucose numbers, lowered BP and heart rate, etc.). And SeaConquest said the same thing about her PCOS--several different symptoms. So I'm having a hard time understanding how there could be something similar to those things going on that would just cause easy weight gain or the inability to lose and not other symptoms, too.

My father-in-law and his sister were skinny Type II, both diagnosed in their twenties, until they discovered that they had MODY II, a genetic form of diabetes, rather than Type II. In MODY II, insulin levels are always lower than in normal human bodies and lower than optimal to manage blood sugar, and, therefore, blood sugar levels are always slightly elevated. A marked difference from Type II is that most MODY II people don't get the crazy high BG levels (no spikes up into the 400s). MODY II people tend to be thin, possibly due to the chronically low insulin levels.

 

My healthy-eating, highly active, skinny husband was diagnosed with Type II at 23, but when his father learned of MODY, we realized that's what husband has too. He can still eat anything and not gain weight. Two of my kids have it too, and they eat more than I've ever seen little kids eat while simultaneously falling off the weight percentile charts.

 

CICO worked for me before children. After the first pregnancy, exercising heavily, eating low calorie (yes, I know how to count. Remember CICO worked for me before kids - I dropped 30 pounds of college gain, caused by eating junk, with CICO), and nursing exclusivy resulted in significant weight gain: 30 pounds more than I'd gained in pregnancy. I'll say that again: low calorie, exercise, and nursing exclusively and I gained 30 pounds! I tried everything for 4 years, the discovered low carb and a few food sensitives and finally got the weight off. Something about pregnancy changed my body significantly!

[VaKim]

Don't get me started. The school day in this country is ridiculously long, with nothing to show for. Back home, elementary school kids get out at 11am or noon. They have a little bit of homework, but not overly much.

Here , kids kept in school for a huge amount of time that is completely age inappropriate and then have homework. You'd wonder what they are thinking: if they can't manage to teach it to them in the seven hours they are in the school, homework won't accomplish that either.

Off my soap box.

 

I wish I could like this five billion times!

[flyingiguana]

http://www.chalmers.se/en/news/Pages/Your-stomach-bacteria-determines-which-diet-is-best-for-weight-reduction.aspx

 

"Your gut bacteria determines which diet is best for weight reduction

New research enables "tailored" diet advice – based on our personal gut microbiome – for persons who want to lose weight and reduce the risk of disease. Systems biologists at Chalmers University of Technology have for the first time successfully identified in detail how some of our most common intestinal bacteria interact during metabolism.......

 

Facts/the Study
There were 45 overweight people in the study who were divided into two groups depending on whether their gut microbiome was diverse or low-diverse. They were put on a low calorie diet for six weeks. The content of substances that are known markers of disease and ill health were then measured in the individuals' blood and faeces. The result was that the low-diverse group, which already had an inferior health situation from the start, obtained greatly improved values. The individuals in the diverse gut microbiome group were not affected to the same extent. The Chalmers researchers selected five of the most common intestinal bacteria, and by mathematically modelling their metabolism and interaction with each other, were able to explain the results of the study."

 

 

The "Facts" portion doesn't really seem to say what the intro says, but it's still interesting that people are beginning to do this sort of research.

 

And that "fat" doesn't necessarily mean "unhealthy".  It's not that simple.

[mommymilkies]

http://www.chalmers.se/en/news/Pages/Your-stomach-bacteria-determines-which-diet-is-best-for-weight-reduction.aspx

 

"Your gut bacteria determines which diet is best for weight reduction

New research enables "tailored" diet advice – based on our personal gut microbiome – for persons who want to lose weight and reduce the risk of disease. Systems biologists at Chalmers University of Technology have for the first time successfully identified in detail how some of our most common intestinal bacteria interact during metabolism.......

 

Facts/the Study

There were 45 overweight people in the study who were divided into two groups depending on whether their gut microbiome was diverse or low-diverse. They were put on a low calorie diet for six weeks. The content of substances that are known markers of disease and ill health were then measured in the individuals' blood and faeces. The result was that the low-diverse group, which already had an inferior health situation from the start, obtained greatly improved values. The individuals in the diverse gut microbiome group were not affected to the same extent. The Chalmers researchers selected five of the most common intestinal bacteria, and by mathematically modelling their metabolism and interaction with each other, were able to explain the results of the study."

 

 

The "Facts" portion doesn't really seem to say what the intro says, but it's still interesting that people are beginning to do this sort of research.

 

And that "fat" doesn't necessarily mean "unhealthy".  It's not that simple.

Fascinating.  It's amazing how much your gut biome can affect everything-immunity, allergies, weight, mental health...

[Joyofsixreboot]

Very cool piece about someone whose body obviously is not working as predicted. I thought of this thread right away and found it especially interesting since I run.

 

http://www.nbcnews.com/nightly-news/video/-fat-girl-running--blogger---you-can-t-wait-for-your-body-to-be-perfect--528308803873

[Jerico]

Cico worked when losing pregnancy weight the first two times. I was able to lose about 55 pounds in a year after my baby.

 

It took me almost 3 years to achieve that with my third. I still have 15 pounds to go (i gained more with my third). He is 3 1/2. I hike 11-16 miles a week. I track my calories. I've eaten at 1400, then bumped up to 1700. This has shown no weight loss. I still bounce between my usual numbers.

 

I've had my thyroid tested (g'ma had thryoid cancer i just learned). I've done an elimination diet for other reasons- no dairy, no wheat/gluten, no fatty meat. No weight loss.

[BlsdMama]

Does it have to be all or nothing? I think assuming that obesity is EITHER caused by excess calories OR caused by inflammation/hormonal imbalance/etc is a false dichotomy. It is very likely some combination of both.

Absolutely.

 

I also think there is some weird hereditary factor.

 

In my family one side tends to be heavy, the other not. One of my aunt's did have her stomach staples and list an incredible amount if weight but gained much of it back.... I think most do?

 

In my husband's family they tend to gain weight and be diabetic. The man eats the same food I do and FAR less of it. We have entirely different metabolisms and not because I'm crazy active or because he's inactive. Our bodies respond very differently to the food we eat. I could live on white bread and not gain more than five or ten pounds. He eats a few small meals each day and his metabolism operates much slower. I will say the guidelines in Trim Healthy Mama did work for him. Slower, but they worked. He needed to eat each morning to start his metabolism and then eat small meals every three to four hours to keep it plugging along. Some day we'll admit that is no one perfect solution. Oh, and that sugar is evil. ;)

[gardenmom5]

Absolutely.

 

I also think there is some weird hereditary factor.

 

In my family one side tends to be heavy, the other not. One of my aunt's did have her stomach staples and list an incredible amount if weight but gained much of it back.... I think most do?

 

In my husband's family they tend to gain weight and be diabetic. The man eats the same food I do and FAR less of it. We have entirely different metabolisms and not because I'm crazy active or because he's inactive. Our bodies respond very differently to the food we eat. I could live on white bread and not gain more than five or ten pounds. He eats a few small meals each day and his metabolism operates much slower. I will say the guidelines in Trim Healthy Mama did work for him. Slower, but they worked. He needed to eat each morning to start his metabolism and then eat small meals every three to four hours to keep it plugging along. Some day we'll admit that is no one perfect solution. Oh, and that sugar is evil. ;)

 

I do think there is something to this as one factor.

 

I have four adult kids - two take after my side, two after dh's.

the two from mine remind me of my paternal grandmother (her family was tall and very thin).  she also had severe osteoporosis and I was surprised to learn she'd been 5'7".  I only knew her as about 5'2" and maybe 100lbs soaking wet. (she also walked everywhere, and drank a lot of tea.)  2dd is like her and a bundle of energy -  dsil complains SHE eats more than he does, and she's thinner than he is.

 

the other two - need to watch what they eat and get plenty of exercise.

[flyingiguana]

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/09/150921133654.htm

 

Millennials, Gen Y need to eat less, work out more to stave off obesity, researchers say The study results suggest that if you are 25, you'd have to eat even less and exercise more than those older

 

This is based on self reports of exercise and calorie consumption, but I gather that so were the original studies.

[mommymilkies]

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/09/150921133654.htm

 

Millennials, Gen Y need to eat less, work out more to stave off obesity, researchers say The study results suggest that if you are 25, you'd have to eat even less and exercise more than those older

 

This is based on self reports of exercise and calorie consumption, but I gather that so were the original studies.

Great.  

[Joules]

I think I posted it on the other thread, but there was a huge study that looked at weight differences between firstborns and later children.  The theory is that something that happens in the womb makes firstborns more likely to have insulin resistance.

https://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/news/fullstory_154313.html

 

There is definitely more to the picture than just CICO.  That works great if the reason you are overweight is that you eat too much and don't exercise enough.  For many people, that is not the reason.  Much does seem related to insulin resistance and auto-immune type disorders, which are on an exponential increase.  

 

I personally was losing weight eating very little (800-1000 cals) and exercising intensely, until the autoimmunes turned on my connective tissue (the thyroid, blood, digestion systems and allergies weren't keeping them busy enough).  That took out the exercise option, so I'm stuck where I am for now.

 

For the pp who said one should see a doctor, I think most of us have...dozens of them.  There really isn't a cure for rampant autoimmune issues, just treatment of the symptoms (with drugs that make you gain weight ;) )

[ktgrok]

Yup. 

 

I will say, I'm now down just over 40lbs. That has taken 3 months of eating between 800 and 1,000 calories a day. There doesn't seem to be a clear relationship between where in that calorie level I am and losing vs maintaining. Some weeks I lose nothing, other weeks I lose 3lbs at once. I can say that without surgery there is no way on earth I could have eaten this few calories, so even if it is just CICO there is no way I could have done that few CI. Not without making it my whole life. 

[DawnM]

I can tell you it's super easy to lose weight when you never feel hungry.  All I had to overcome were all the other cues for eating (and there are plenty) and then make smarter choices regarding what to eat.  With that accomplished, I now have to (usually) tell myself to eat, esp if no one else is around to remind me it's time to eat.  As I type, I haven't eaten since breakfast and I wasn't hungry then either.  I only fixed it and ate it to remain healthy. It was quite tasty, but I didn't need it hunger-wise.  I could easily skip supper as well... and if hubby weren't coming home, I probably would or I'd eat a pear or something just to have had something.

 

I really, really wish I could pass this aspect on to the rest of you!  It is sort of making me feel guilty reading about some of your experiences.

 

In general, I've started following threads like these because hubby has now joined me in wanting to lose weight and because I wish my mom would lose weight for her health.  He's "normal" with his hunger.  She's "always" hungry.  I appreciate all of you who have shared personally so I can glean ideas from them, for them.

 

I also appreciate those of you sharing some nutrition info.  I don't want to lose health while losing weight - for any of us.

 

But I still wish I could share the lack of hunger bit... it would help significantly for many.  Hopefully scientists will make inroads soon.

 

This is what I am currently working on.  I haven't pulled the trigger to buy the program yet, but I have researched and researched over the last 2 weeks and found out as much as I could without purchasing.  The premise is to learn what real hunger is and what it isn't.  Typically in the am (the program says) we aren't really hungry, but rather dehydrated from our sleep.  So, drink something.  

 

I also really struggled with low blood sugar issues, but this program says to drink 60-64 ounces of water with a mix of 1/7th OJ and 6/7th water.  The OJ really helps with the blood sugar issues and makes sure you stay hydrated.

 

But the real key to this program is eating only when you are truly hungry and stopping before you are stuffed.  Most people find they truly don't need the amounts of food they have been consuming.

 

The other things about this plan that are helping.......eat 2-4 ounces of protein at each meal, but overall eat whatever you want, only limiting sugar because sugar messes with your hunger signals.  

 

People are indeed losing weight on this plan and keeping it off.  It is based in TX and many companies are paying for their employees to do it.  I wish my husband's company would, but we don't live in TX and our insurance won't cover it, I called.

[ktgrok]

Interesting. I have been skipping breakfast as well, sometimes having a mid morning snack, sometimes not. I have an iced coffee (cold brew mixed with high protein milk) instead. 

[historically accurate]

This is what I am currently working on.  I haven't pulled the trigger to buy the program yet, but I have researched and researched over the last 2 weeks and found out as much as I could without purchasing.  The premise is to learn what real hunger is and what it isn't.  Typically in the am (the program says) we aren't really hungry, but rather dehydrated from our sleep.  So, drink something.  

 

I also really struggled with low blood sugar issues, but this program says to drink 60-64 ounces of water with a mix of 1/7th OJ and 6/7th water.  The OJ really helps with the blood sugar issues and makes sure you stay hydrated.

 

But the real key to this program is eating only when you are truly hungry and stopping before you are stuffed.  Most people find they truly don't need the amounts of food they have been consuming.

 

The other things about this plan that are helping.......eat 2-4 ounces of protein at each meal, but overall eat whatever you want, only limiting sugar because sugar messes with your hunger signals.  

 

People are indeed losing weight on this plan and keeping it off.  It is based in TX and many companies are paying for their employees to do it.  I wish my husband's company would, but we don't live in TX and our insurance won't cover it, I called.

 

I'm finding exactly the opposite for myself. I've been trying to pay attention to true hunger cues over the last couple of months. I need to eat within 1 hour of waking up, and I'm hungry for lunch. I often am not hungry at dinnertime, so I'll eat a really light salad while the family eats. 

[Carol in Cal.]

This is what I am currently working on.  I haven't pulled the trigger to buy the program yet, but I have researched and researched over the last 2 weeks and found out as much as I could without purchasing.  

What program is this?

[Carol in Cal.]

I have also found that I'm not really hungry when I wake up, which is news to me (I have always been a breakfast eater.)  

What I am is thirsty, plus I like the ritual of making breakfast and then eating it slowly while reading a book.  But I skip it now, and I don't really miss it.  I drink about 2-3 cups of water and 1-2 cups of coffee, and sometimes I eat a little fruit (no WW points) and that's usually it.

[redsquirrel]

Interesting. I have been skipping breakfast as well, sometimes having a mid morning snack, sometimes not. I have an iced coffee (cold brew mixed with high protein milk) instead. 

 

Well, I think that counts as breakfast, yes?  I have a high protein smoothie, made with coffee, every morning and call that breakfast.

 

I've had to go very low carb to make the weight start shifting.  I am only 5' and in my late 40s, so my caloric needs are low, I can live on 800-1,000 calories a day and not lose an ounce. If I go over that, or hang out at 1,000,  with any consistency I will gain and gain. 

 

But, when I went low carb and lower fat it started to come off.  My caloric intake didn't change but what I ate did. And by keeping it mostly protein I find my appetite is greatly reduced.

[creekland]

Just FWIW... I've been sharing a bit of what I've been learning on these threads with my Bio classes as we're doing Biochem... ;)

 

Not the who's doing what part, of course, but the murkiness of how our bodies actually react to carbs and proteins, etc.

 

I think it's interesting enough to pass on to the next generation - at least in tidbits they may (or may not) remember.