getting back the discipline I have lost...can you help

ProudGrandma · June 9, 2015

when my kids were little, I said what I meant and I meant what I said and my 3 kids were good listeners and obeyed most of the time. Disciplining them was easier. But now that they have become young teenagers (or nearly so with one child) the sassiness, the back talking, the arguing, the nit picking of each other, the disobedience has become worse. What sort of consequences do you give your young teenage child for such behavior. Sitting in the corner, going to their rooms, etc obviously isn't the way to go anymore. We don't do devices or computer or TV much in our home, so taking those away won't work. They don't have a phone. (don't want to debate the reasons to those choices). I want something concrete and immediate...to make them realize that just because they are older, doesn't mean they have permission to behave badly.

Please give me some ideas. Ask questions for clarity if needed.

thanks.

Joker · June 9, 2015

I'm not sure how old your dc are but taking away time with friends is what works here. Mine are 13 and 15 and each have a good group of friends that keeps them busy. If they get into some kind of attitude funk (hasn't really happened in a while), then they miss out of doing things with their friends. They also get to help me and dh more around the house with chores and yard work.

Jean in Newcastle · June 9, 2015

I don't think it is simply a matter of finding a way to come down hard on them. How have you taught them to discuss issues among the family? How have you taught them to disagree politely? (You don't have to answer these outloud but these would be the hard questions I would have for myself.)

I have two teens and I am no longer operating on "I said what I mean and I mean what I say" in all things. I mean, of course that I do mean what I say but I am no longer making all the decisions for my kids. I ask their honest opinions on things. We do a lot by consensus. My kids do squabble some with each other during this process and while it makes me crazy sometimes, I tell them to knock it off and we get back to figuring out what we're going to do. It just isn't that huge a deal because how else are they going to learn how to negotiate and work things out? I may tell them to do a task but I let them come up with how to do the task. I do not micromanage them. This is just how it works in our house. It's not perfect but I feel like we have a pretty harmonious house and that my kids respect me.

bolt. · June 9, 2015

Would you be open to the idea of teaching them how to behave well in a more straightforward way? Or do you only want this thread to brainstorm more and better consequences to apply to their current social behaviours?

Starr · June 9, 2015

I find sending myself or others to their room is a very good tool. :D If you can't be nice it's time for a sandwich, a shower, exercise or quiet time in your room. Don't give up now! :grouphug: You can do it.

albeto. · June 9, 2015

Sorry, but I agree with Jean and Sadie. In my opinion, the best tool you have in your tool belt as the parent of teens is listening. I interpret "obedience" as "convenience." Reading back your post in that vein, it looks like this:

when my kids were little, I said what I meant and I meant what I said and my 3 kids were convenient most of the time. Manipulating behavior was easier. But now that they have become young teenagers (or nearly so with one child) the sassiness, the back talking, the arguing, the nit picking of each other, the general inconvenience has become unpleasant to me. What sort of manipulation do you use to make sure your young teenage child is convenient. Sitting in the corner, going to their rooms, etc obviously isn't the way to go anymore. We don't do devices or computer or TV much in our home, so manipulation through removal of resources only I have access to or control of won't work. They don't have a phone. (don't want to debate the reasons to those choices). I want something now ...to make them realize that just because they are older, doesn't mean they have permission to stop being convenient.

Yikes. That sounds harsh, but that's not what I was going for. Honest. It's just... I really do think "obedience" is a matter of convenience in this sense. Unless your children have some cognitive or social skills challenges, they're learning how to play the game that exists in your home to get their needs met. I'd listen more, ask them what they feel their needs are. By this age, their needs no longer correspond with yours as much. It's a part of growing up. It's a part of exerting autonomy as they continue their mental pattern recognition and prediction skills. It's not a bad thing, it's how humans are. That's not a bug, it's a feature. ;)

Now's the time to focus on conflict resolution, not obedience. Like Sadie said, expectations are good in times of emergencies, but your days aren't likely to be that. I hope you take this post in the spirit in which it's intended - not as a criticism of you, but as a means to explain a different way of interpreting the same problem. I assume my interpretation is closer to what your kids think, and it's them you want to reconnect with, right? Right or wrong (and I think there is no right or wrong when it comes to subjective interpretations), you guys want to find a way to live under the same roof with a sense of peace and joy. Try looking at it from another perspective. Get their perspective. Ask their opinions. Then help them solve their problems in such a way that it doesn't create more problems, either for them, or for you. Expect compromise. Model compromise. Model patience. Model unity. Take time to enjoy each other's company when you can. Continue to make "inside jokes" that mean something only to your family. Hug them every day, even when you want to throttle someone. Approach them with a smile.

Farrar · June 9, 2015

I think it's important to say what you mean and mean what you say with kids of all ages. But what that looks like with teens is going to be radically different. I wouldn't talk about a potential consequence unless I meant it. But that's part of why I also wouldn't be as firm about potential consequences with older kids in the first place. A four yo needs to know that if they hit little Timmy on the playground one more time, you're leaving. A fourteen yo needs to know where you stand, but most of the time you can't just pack them up and go if they do something you don't like.

ProudGrandma · June 9, 2015

Let me first explain myself about how we USED to discpline the kids...one child was climbing up a tricky part of the climber at the park, the older one comes up behind them and they start to climb...faster causing the younger one to go more quickly then they should. I tell the older one to wait until the younger one is at the top. She waits at first, but then continues on. I tell her she now needs to go up the climber another way because she didn't listen and obey. I see nothing wrong with that. But now that the kids are older, that method doesn't work.

ok...now let me give you a couple examples:

1) I noticed that my daughter for the 1000th time left her light on in her bedroom. I mentioned it to her and she said she would take care of it. After about 20 minutes I noticed that she did not take care of it and when I said something again, she responded disrespectfully. "I told you I would do it in a minute" kind of answer. What would you have done?

2) another BIG problem we have is EXCESSIVE bossiness of the big kids to the youngest. And now the youngest one thinks he can boss his older siblings. And whenever we step in, all we get is arguing, trying to defend why they have the right to tell the other one what to do, or how to act, or what to stop doing, etc. Sometimes they have a good point...sometimes they are actually acting out of love and care (the other doing something dangerous or just plain stupid), but most of the time is because the one bossing is annoyed by a certain behavior or something. I try to just stop the arguing, but it always ends up with a dramatic "you NEVER listen to me" or "you ALWAYS take ______'s side" or "you NEVER understand". How do I handle these things?

3) today as we were packing up our camper from a weekend camping trip, my husband was hitching the camper to the SUV and my son who wanted to help, thought he knew better how to do something...so he plunged ahead...and no matter how many times my husband told him to stop, he just kept on going...and going would have been really bad for the camper. This sort of thing happens a lot with this particular child. He sometimes has really good ideas...so in his mind that translates into ALWAYS having better ideas than the adult who is present. And even when an adult tells him no, or stop, don't, or wait...he doesn't. What should be his punishment? He has broken, damaged, ruined things because this impulsive behavior.

4) similar to example 1, often when I ask/tell my children to do something...take their clean clothes to their room and put them away, clean up the school room since they took out 3 games and left them all over the floor, left bikes, balls and rip stiks outside...etc...the response I get is "I am getting there" or "ok" (but they don't do it....or "forget" until I remind them for the 3rd time...which to me is 2 times too many many times...for a child who is either 11, 13,, or nearly 15). But it's the tone in which they talk to us...the way they respond...as if we are asking them to move the livingroom furniture to the front yard.

5) just happened: we just got home from a camping trip, daughter has been busy doing something in her room, playing with her brothers, etc. Then, she got an idea in her head that she wanted to watch something on a DVD and we are just about ready to eat. I tell her that she needs to wait right now and her response was "I am so bored and you don't even care!" and stops off to her room.

We want to get our children's opinions, thoughts, ideas....but they can't seem to express themselves in a way that isn't disrespectful or agumenatvie.

please give me some advice on this....before it gets any more out of hand than it is.

ProudGrandma · June 9, 2015

maybe discipline is the wrong word to use...instead, how do I handle these situations?

Loowit · June 9, 2015

I struggle with this honestly. I am by nature a controlling person, so I have a hard time letting go as my kids get older. I want immediate responses when I ask them to do something or whatever. But having a child with ODD has taught me a lot of patience and conflict resolution. One thing that I have tried with my older two that sometimes helps when they are starting the attitude thing is saying "Attitude check". It is their clue to check what they are saying and how they are saying it. It gives us both a chance to calm down and think it through. If that doesn't work I will tell them to go cool down and then we can talk. DD chooses her room, DS has a "cave" he can go to to de-stress, my youngest has a whole different system that we have to use because of his behavior issues.

Joker · June 10, 2015

1) I noticed that my daughter for the 1000th time left her light on in her bedroom. I mentioned it to her and she said she would take care of it. After about 20 minutes I noticed that she did not take care of it and when I said something again, she responded disrespectfully. "I told you I would do it in a minute" kind of answer. What would you have done?

If I cared that much, I would turn it off myself. Not worth fighting over, IMO.

2) another BIG problem we have is EXCESSIVE bossiness of the big kids to the youngest. And now the youngest one thinks he can boss his older siblings. And whenever we step in, all we get is arguing, trying to defend why they have the right to tell the other one what to do, or how to act, or what to stop doing, etc. Sometimes they have a good point...sometimes they are actually acting out of love and care (the other doing something dangerous or just plain stupid), but most of the time is because the one bossing is annoyed by a certain behavior or something. I try to just stop the arguing, but it always ends up with a dramatic "you NEVER listen to me" or "you ALWAYS take ______'s side" or "you NEVER understand". How do I handle these things?

I haven't had this issue as mine are only 2.5 years apart. My first thought is to ask you how often olders are left in charge of youngers. I think it would make a difference if they are often in a position to parent/babysit them.

3) today as we were packing up our camper from a weekend camping trip, my husband was hitching the camper to the SUV and my son who wanted to help, thought he knew better how to do something...so he plunged ahead...and no matter how many times my husband told him to stop, he just kept on going...and going would have been really bad for the camper. This sort of thing happens a lot with this particular child. He sometimes has really good ideas...so in his mind that translates into ALWAYS having better ideas than the adult who is present. And even when an adult tells him no, or stop, don't, or wait...he doesn't. What should be his punishment? He has broken, damaged, ruined things because this impulsive behavior.

I would sit them down at a time when not engaged in this behavior and have a good discussion about it. I don't think you will get anywhere punishing for this or trying to change it while it's happening since you know it's already an issue.

4) similar to example 1, often when I ask/tell my children to do something...take their clean clothes to their room and put them away, clean up the school room since they took out 3 games and left them all over the floor, left bikes, balls and rip stiks outside...etc...the response I get is "I am getting there" or "ok" (but they don't do it....or "forget" until I remind them for the 3rd time...which to me is 2 times too many many times...for a child who is either 11, 13,, or nearly 15). But it's the tone in which they talk to us...the way they respond...as if we are asking them to move the livingroom furniture to the front yard.

I don't expect either dd to jump when I ask so if they pick up their stuff when I ask the third time, I'm good.

5) just happened: we just got home from a camping trip, daughter has been busy doing something in her room, playing with her brothers, etc. Then, she got an idea in her head that she wanted to watch something on a DVD and we are just about ready to eat. I tell her that she needs to wait right now and her response was "I am so bored and you don't even care!" and stops off to her room.

I would think she was overly tired from the camping trip which in turn makes her grumpy. She probably needs food and sleep and you start over tomorrow.

We want to get our children's opinions, thoughts, ideas....but they can't seem to express themselves in a way that isn't disrespectful or agumenatvie.

please give me some advice on this....before it gets any more out of hand than it is.

I honestly wouldn't consider what you've posted here that big of a deal. I thought when I originally posted it was more.

Jean in Newcastle · June 10, 2015

Example #1: Are you worried about the electric bill? The environment? I wouldn't find it necessary to nag my kids about a light being on. Since it sounds like a habit from your language of it being the 1000th time and it sounds very important to you, I would work on the habit of shutting off the light. I would tell them that this is a new habit we're going to work on. Perhaps brainstorm on how to make it a habit.

Example #2: "Thank you, but I'm the parent and didn't give up that job to you." is how I've addressed it before to my kids (both the older and the younger!) Then I make sure that I am keeping on top of things so they don't feel like they have to.

Example #3: This is the only one that I would be super hardnosed about because it sounds like there is a safety, emergency element to this. Practice what "stop" means with this child. Give very explicit commands like "take your hand off of the camper right now." or whatever needs to be communicated for safety. Does this child need an evaluation and perhaps some assistance in managing impulsivity?

Example #4: "OK, guys, we're all going to clean up now." And do it with them. It's modeling the behavior and the attitude.

Example #5 : Would not really be on my radar. My dd does this. Then once she's not so tired or has had something to eat or drink she comes and apologizes to me.

amo_mea_filiis. · June 10, 2015

#1- I'd take the lightbulb for 24 hours (after telling her that is the new plan).

#2- no experience.

#3- agree with Jean. Mine are both impulsive.

#4- I guess for me it would depend what they were doing. As hard as it is, I think we're supposed to ignore their attitudes (don't ask how well I've been doing with that lately! Lol).

#5- not much is expected here the first day home after a big thing. Everyone just needs to relax away from everyone else. She did not put on the DVD; she went to her room. I think that's fine.

hornblower · June 10, 2015

Breathe

that's all I've got. Breathe, try to smile, try to let it roll off your back. If someone is being a turd to you, just say "quit acting like a turd. I don't like it."

Remove yourself from a room if sibling stuff is bothering you. Ask them to leave. I also do say stuff like "knock it off already because I'm an old woman and you're making me cranky and it's not good for me"

(eta, just read about the bossiness - I'm going to go on a limb & say they're doing what you've modelled.)

Change the subject. Pretend they're fractious guests at your dinner party & your job as host is to gracefully redirect the conversation. "Gee, that's interesting Jane. But you must tell me about that new movie that's coming out next weekend. Is it true that Ms Big Star filmed the entire thing drunk?"

The consequence in my house is real life. Act like a jerk and you make people upset and sometimes you make your mother really cranky and sometimes it means everybody is looking daggers at you.

I would suggest you all - as a family - start reading books on communication and cooperative team building. Many of the skills, empathetic listening, cooperative leadership, expressing requests appropriately are skills that transfer well to all adult relationships.

albeto. · June 10, 2015

1) I noticed that my daughter for the 1000th time left her light on in her bedroom. I mentioned it to her and she said she would take care of it. After about 20 minutes I noticed that she did not take care of it and when I said something again, she responded disrespectfully. "I told you I would do it in a minute" kind of answer. What would you have done?

Turn it off when you notice it. Mention it later. "Hey hon, I saw you left your light on. I turned it off for you. You know it gets so hot in the summer and that will help keep your room cooler. Besides, it's good limit our energy use for the environment." That's it. No lecture. Next time it's convenient for her to do something like that for you, thank her for it and let her know you appreciated her help.

Her experience: Mom did something nice without expectation of anything in return.

Her conclusion: Families do nice things for each other.

2) another BIG problem we have is EXCESSIVE bossiness of the big kids to the youngest. And now the youngest one thinks he can boss his older siblings. And whenever we step in, all we get is arguing, trying to defend why they have the right to tell the other one what to do, or how to act, or what to stop doing, etc. Sometimes they have a good point...sometimes they are actually acting out of love and care (the other doing something dangerous or just plain stupid), but most of the time is because the one bossing is annoyed by a certain behavior or something. I try to just stop the arguing, but it always ends up with a dramatic "you NEVER listen to me" or "you ALWAYS take ______'s side" or "you NEVER understand". How do I handle these things?

Separate the kids. Placate the youngest so they can wait, then talk with the oldest. Get their side. Help them figure out a more socially appropriate solution to their problem. Remind them younger kids have different needs, and often these needs require patience on our part. Go out of your way to notice when they do tend to their younger siblings. Thank them, and articulate how considerate that is, and how neat it is to see the family taking care of each other.

Then talk to the younger one and do the same thing. Remind them sometimes the older ones have better ideas because they've got more experience. Remind them everyone has more experience and better ideas in different things, and it's fun to learn from those who know more.

Their experience: Mom takes the time to work out with them what bothers them, and what they can do to solve it.

Their conclusions: They learn to take the time to calmly and rationally identify and solve problems.

3) today as we were packing up our camper from a weekend camping trip, my husband was hitching the camper to the SUV and my son who wanted to help, thought he knew better how to do something...so he plunged ahead...and no matter how many times my husband told him to stop, he just kept on going...and going would have been really bad for the camper. This sort of thing happens a lot with this particular child. He sometimes has really good ideas...so in his mind that translates into ALWAYS having better ideas than the adult who is present. And even when an adult tells him no, or stop, don't, or wait...he doesn't. What should be his punishment? He has broken, damaged, ruined things because this impulsive behavior.

Take the extra hour or two to give him the undivided attention he needs to learn the skills of listening and when and how to apply innovation.

His experience: Mom spends time with him he feels special, he feels good learning and being helpful.

His conclusion: It's okay to be patient and confirm his ideas before running full force with every plan that pops into his head.

4) similar to example 1, often when I ask/tell my children to do something...take their clean clothes to their room and put them away, clean up the school room since they took out 3 games and left them all over the floor, left bikes, balls and rip stiks outside...etc...the response I get is "I am getting there" or "ok" (but they don't do it....or "forget" until I remind them for the 3rd time...which to me is 2 times too many many times...for a child who is either 11, 13,, or nearly 15). But it's the tone in which they talk to us...the way they respond...as if we are asking them to move the livingroom furniture to the front yard.

There's a reason for making these requests. Let them know. It's hard to prepare dinner when laundry is all over the kitchen table. The games are fun to play, but they're useless when the pieces are lost. Help them clean, do it together and take the opportunity to hang out with them. Get them talking about something they find interesting or funny, and let them chat while you do their chores with them.

Experience: Mom likes hanging out with me, and I feel good when she listens to me and laughs at my jokes. She helped me do these chores without making an awkward lesson out of it.

Conclusion: The chores get done and I can move on. Family helps out when they can. That's just the nice thing to do.

5) just happened: we just got home from a camping trip, daughter has been busy doing something in her room, playing with her brothers, etc. Then, she got an idea in her head that she wanted to watch something on a DVD and we are just about ready to eat. I tell her that she needs to wait right now and her response was "I am so bored and you don't even care!" and stops off to her room.

Let it go. Enjoy dinner with the rest of the family. When she comes back, enjoy her company. Don't make a big deal out of it and she won't either.

Experience: No drama. I needed time alone and I got it. Nobody made a big deal when I got back. I had a pleasant evening.

Conclusion: Sometimes people need time alone, and sometimes family is really comforting.

We want to get our children's opinions, thoughts, ideas....but they can't seem to express themselves in a way that isn't disrespectful or agumenatvie.

I would suggest that you take the opportunity over the summer to slow down activities so you can spend the extra time needed during the day to essentially "drop everything" and come help your kids when they have trouble solving their own conflicts. That way they'll get the time and attention they need without throwing off any plans that can't be altered.

Also, and I wish I knew how to do it but this is my husband's department, keep a humorous attitude. Not only does it help keep the tension down for kids to see Mom and Dad keep their cool when someone stomps off in a huff, but it teaches everyone to have a thicker skin. Then model that yourself. Mention how you brushed something off when the circumstances were not convenient, but you didn't have a choice, and so you laughed it off somehow. I think kids assume as adults we have so much control over things that it extends beyond our homes. Seeing that you have to deal with garbage that is totally out of your control is not only an eye opener for them, but watching you brush it off with a joke or a shrug teaches them the same thing. They might as well learn now, no one has all the control they want, even moms and dads! We can complain about the injustices, or we can laugh it off and have an ice cream cone to celebrate the absurdity of the situation. I had a friend do that when her child got a "0" on an assignment for reasons out of his control - what an epiphany! You can teach your kids "life ain't fair! let's celebrate how goofy it is!"

I really liked the book 20 Teachable Virtues. It's been ages since I've read it, but I found it to be a very helpful resource, and easy, quick read.

lllll · June 10, 2015

..

kbutton · June 10, 2015

I think you got some great advice, but I have a couple of comments.

#3--My son is like this, and he has major issues with being impulsive. He also has some compulsive behavior which he has trouble stopping once started. We spend a LOT of time and effort talking about things ahead of time. He also doesn't express things well until after he's processed them completely, and that feeds into this issue. If you have an excessive amount of this that doesn't respond to some habit training, you might ask for some professional help from someone who is good with quirky kids.

#4--I try really hard to have predictable times to check in on my kids--if they are going to go outside, then they have to pick up a mess they have made, and so on, and then I try to check to see that they did it right then, not once they're busy elsewhere. Same for getting ready for dinner, bed, etc. My mom had a tendency to nickel and dime my time with silly stuff and little chores when they bothered her, not at some predictable time, and I hated that. I think adults tend to attach different levels of importance to activities than their children do, and we kind of consider their things silly enough to interrupt. If it bothers you that something is out, I would make sure you are pointing this out to them at a time that is respectful of their time and the stuff that is important to them. It goes a long way in creating good will. And I find that they are more considerate of my time in return.

AMJ · June 10, 2015

Example #1: Are you worried about the electric bill? The environment? I wouldn't find it necessary to nag my kids about a light being on. Since it sounds like a habit from your language of it being the 1000th time and it sounds very important to you, I would work on the habit of shutting off the light. I would tell them that this is a new habit we're going to work on. Perhaps brainstorm on how to make it a habit.

Example #2: "Thank you, but I'm the parent and didn't give up that job to you." is how I've addressed it before to my kids (both the older and the younger!) Then I make sure that I am keeping on top of things so they don't feel like they have to.

Example #3: This is the only one that I would be super hardnosed about because it sounds like there is a safety, emergency element to this. Practice what "stop" means with this child. Give very explicit commands like "take your hand off of the camper right now." or whatever needs to be communicated for safety. Does this child need an evaluation and perhaps some assistance in managing impulsivity?

Example #4: "OK, guys, we're all going to clean up now." And do it with them. It's modeling the behavior and the attitude.

Example #5 : Would not really be on my radar. My dd does this. Then once she's not so tired or has had something to eat or drink she comes and apologizes to me.

I would also suggest changing her light switch. DH put motion sensor switches in one bathroom and some closets so that forgotten lights weren't that much of an issue (and we have been guilty of this, too, when distracted in the middle of things). He also put a button-timer switch in eldest DD's closet -- she has to push a button to turn on the light, and it will only run for so many minutes before it turns off. He turns off her room light at the fixture (ceiling fan with chain switches) if she forgets to turn the switch off when she leaves the room. It's infrequent enough she doesn't remember the next time it happens and comes to us complaining her light won't work.

I also know from direct experience from my own youth with siblings and from watching other kids grow up (both related and unrelated to me) that a lot of this is part of a phase that lasts a few years. Much of this they will grow out of. Pick your battles -- what is truly important for everyone's survival and sanity just now?

OP, maybe ask your parents and ILs what you and your DH were like when you were each these ages.

Junie · June 10, 2015

1) I noticed that my daughter for the 1000th time left her light on in her bedroom. I mentioned it to her and she said she would take care of it. After about 20 minutes I noticed that she did not take care of it and when I said something again, she responded disrespectfully. "I told you I would do it in a minute" kind of answer. What would you have done?

Please let the light thing go. My dad was always yelling at us to turn out the lights. When I was older, I did the math to see how much money it cost to leave the lights on. It really wasn't very much at all. I certainly would have just paid him the money if it meant he would have stopped yelling at me. :crying: (BTW, I leave all of the lights in my house on from the time I get up until I go to bed. I like light.)

2) another BIG problem we have is EXCESSIVE bossiness of the big kids to the youngest. And now the youngest one thinks he can boss his older siblings. And whenever we step in, all we get is arguing, trying to defend why they have the right to tell the other one what to do, or how to act, or what to stop doing, etc. Sometimes they have a good point...sometimes they are actually acting out of love and care (the other doing something dangerous or just plain stupid), but most of the time is because the one bossing is annoyed by a certain behavior or something. I try to just stop the arguing, but it always ends up with a dramatic "you NEVER listen to me" or "you ALWAYS take ______'s side" or "you NEVER understand". How do I handle these things?

I tell my kids that they aren't parent yet and that they will probably get their turn some day. But not yet. If they don't stop, I separate them by sending someone to their room or to do a chore.

3) today as we were packing up our camper from a weekend camping trip, my husband was hitching the camper to the SUV and my son who wanted to help, thought he knew better how to do something...so he plunged ahead...and no matter how many times my husband told him to stop, he just kept on going...and going would have been really bad for the camper. This sort of thing happens a lot with this particular child. He sometimes has really good ideas...so in his mind that translates into ALWAYS having better ideas than the adult who is present. And even when an adult tells him no, or stop, don't, or wait...he doesn't. What should be his punishment? He has broken, damaged, ruined things because this impulsive behavior.

I haven't faced this situation, so no advice. Sorry.

4) similar to example 1, often when I ask/tell my children to do something...take their clean clothes to their room and put them away, clean up the school room since they took out 3 games and left them all over the floor, left bikes, balls and rip stiks outside...etc...the response I get is "I am getting there" or "ok" (but they don't do it....or "forget" until I remind them for the 3rd time...which to me is 2 times too many many times...for a child who is either 11, 13,, or nearly 15). But it's the tone in which they talk to us...the way they respond...as if we are asking them to move the livingroom furniture to the front yard.

This is one we're working on. Sometimes I just have to tell them that they have to quit what they're doing "right now" and get the job done. Sometimes I require them to get the job done before they get to eat. (That usually gets them moving quickly.)

5) just happened: we just got home from a camping trip, daughter has been busy doing something in her room, playing with her brothers, etc. Then, she got an idea in her head that she wanted to watch something on a DVD and we are just about ready to eat. I tell her that she needs to wait right now and her response was "I am so bored and you don't even care!" and stops off to her room.

I agree with the previous poster that she's probably just tired from the trip. At our house, dc are required to ask permission before watching anything or playing video games.

We want to get our children's opinions, thoughts, ideas....but they can't seem to express themselves in a way that isn't disrespectful or agumenatvie.

I notice that when my kids get argumentative, they sound a lot like me. I'm working on it. :001_unsure:

please give me some advice on this....before it gets any more out of hand than it is.

Junie · June 10, 2015

#4--I try really hard to have predictable times to check in on my kids--if they are going to go outside, then they have to pick up a mess they have made, and so on, and then I try to check to see that they did it right then, not once they're busy elsewhere. Same for getting ready for dinner, bed, etc. My mom had a tendency to nickel and dime my time with silly stuff and little chores when they bothered her, not at some predictable time, and I hated that. I think adults tend to attach different levels of importance to activities than their children do, and we kind of consider their things silly enough to interrupt. If it bothers you that something is out, I would make sure you are pointing this out to them at a time that is respectful of their time and the stuff that is important to them. It goes a long way in creating good will. And I find that they are more considerate of my time in return.

Thank you for reminding me of this. I need to do better at this one. I know I used to hate when my mom would interrupt me in the middle of book.

snickerplum · June 10, 2015

I know mine are little and not teens, but I have a background in education and I've worked a lot with teens. Some things are just them in the teenage fog and they'll come out of it someday. However, I think the OP is right in wanting to help change/guide the situation. It's a respect issue. In the grand scheme of life is not shutting a light off a big deal? Not really. When they're grown, will an employer ask over and over for a small task to be completed? Probably not. As parents should we not be training our children for life outside our home?

And I don't think children, teens, whatever should ask how high if we say jump. But you know what - I'm the mom, so go turn off the light. Pick up your dirty clothes. Come to the table to eat. Be a pleasant part of the family because we love you and enjoy your company. Most of the time. :P

We're going to have 4 teenagers in our house all at one time someday. Pray for me, y'all.

hornblower · June 10, 2015

oh & re the lights:

"Youâ€™re obsessing about the wrong home energy uses"

http://grist.org/climate-energy/youre-obsessing-about-the-wrong-home-energy-uses/?utm_source=syndication&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=feed

ProudGrandma · June 10, 2015

1) I am NOT obsessing about the light thing because of the energy it is is using. I could care less about that...it's the idea that she is asked to do something and doesn't quite gets around to getting it done until I get upset....whether it's emptying the dishwasher, cleaning her room, feeding the pets, weeding HER strawberry bed..THAT is the issue..not the lights.

5) I totally get that she was tired tonight. And if that was the only time this sort of thing happened, I wouldn't have made a deal out of it at all...but that sort of thing happens often...tired or not, hungry or not...

the overall arching issue is attitude...and willingness to obey when told to do what needs to be done. How is that any different than "you have these 3 chores to do, make sure they get done" that seems to be common in most people's homes. Our issue is I can't seem to figure out how to make that happen without drama, arguing, and tension.

I don't think I nag...until I have asked too many times...which is what I am trying to change. I know I am not expecting too much...they aren't 5 anymore...I have just allowed them to be too lazy sometimes.

My kids are great kids...they really are. When they want to be, they are kind, considerate, helpful kids. But they go through these times where their attitude needs a major adjustment...and I am not sure how to help them with that.

AND when they are helpful, kind, considerate i thank them, I praise them, I brag on them...I treat them...so, it's not like I am ignoring the good...

Am I still not clear as to what I am asking?

Tsuga · June 10, 2015

Let me first explain myself about how we USED to discpline the kids...one child was climbing up a tricky part of the climber at the park, the older one comes up behind them and they start to climb...faster causing the younger one to go more quickly then they should. I tell the older one to wait until the younger one is at the top. She waits at first, but then continues on. I tell her she now needs to go up the climber another way because she didn't listen and obey. I see nothing wrong with that. But now that the kids are older, that method doesn't work.

ok...now let me give you a couple examples:

1) I noticed that my daughter for the 1000th time left her light on in her bedroom. I mentioned it to her and she said she would take care of it. After about 20 minutes I noticed that she did not take care of it and when I said something again, she responded disrespectfully. "I told you I would do it in a minute" kind of answer. What would you have done?

With our teen, it is rinse, repeat, DO NOT ENGAGE. Engaging raises the stakes and it gets ugly. So for example (let's say my partner does this because he's good at it but I'm getting better):

"I said I would do it."

"Please do it now."

"I SAID I WOULD DO IT! I'LL DO IT!"

"Please do it right now."

"Oh my GOD. You don't trust me!"

"Please turn off the light now."

"You treat me like a child! Oh my god! Whatever!"

"Please turn off the light now."

"I'M TURNING IT OFF!!!!!!!"

Pauses. "So please turn it off before I ask again."

"FINE!"

Now, I know it seems like she won. But she is able to process long-term consequences at this age. So next time, it will go as follows (because we're tons of fun):

"Did you turn off the light?"

"I'm not five!"

"I'm going to check now."

"I said I did it!"

"No you didn't. I'm going to check because last time this turned into an argument."

"Because YOU made it into an argument!"

"Thanks for turning the light off."

His kids are actually pretty well behaved because they never get anywhere with him. IMO he's a bit to passive aggressive, but that's not the point. Ultimately in these cases keeping his cool really humiliates them and they do try to stay at his level.

2) another BIG problem we have is EXCESSIVE bossiness of the big kids to the youngest. And now the youngest one thinks he can boss his older siblings. And whenever we step in, all we get is arguing, trying to defend why they have the right to tell the other one what to do, or how to act, or what to stop doing, etc. Sometimes they have a good point...sometimes they are actually acting out of love and care (the other doing something dangerous or just plain stupid), but most of the time is because the one bossing is annoyed by a certain behavior or something. I try to just stop the arguing, but it always ends up with a dramatic "you NEVER listen to me" or "you ALWAYS take ______'s side" or "you NEVER understand". How do I handle these things?

I just repeat, ad nauseam: "Thank you, but one mom is enough." "Thank you, but one mom is enough. Please stop." "Right or wrong, one mom is enough. If it's not life threatening, one mom is enough."

Repeat, repeat, repeat.

3) today as we were packing up our camper from a weekend camping trip, my husband was hitching the camper to the SUV and my son who wanted to help, thought he knew better how to do something...so he plunged ahead...and no matter how many times my husband told him to stop, he just kept on going...and going would have been really bad for the camper. This sort of thing happens a lot with this particular child. He sometimes has really good ideas...so in his mind that translates into ALWAYS having better ideas than the adult who is present. And even when an adult tells him no, or stop, don't, or wait...he doesn't. What should be his punishment? He has broken, damaged, ruined things because this impulsive behavior.

In this case, I will show, "NO MEANS NO! THIS IS NOT YOUR DECISION!" And then, just as I would physically redirect an adult (unarmed) if needed, I would physically redirect. The punishment is to explain that since I can't trust him to follow the rules, next time, I'm going to make his decisions for him, and those will be the same decisions I made for him when he was younger. Even adults need to respect the person in charge. I do not believe that this is disrespectful. If your kayaking instructor yells "STOP!" then if you don't stop, you may not go there again. So I don't think it's extreme to say the next activity, he's in the group with the younger kids.

4) similar to example 1, often when I ask/tell my children to do something...take their clean clothes to their room and put them away, clean up the school room since they took out 3 games and left them all over the floor, left bikes, balls and rip stiks outside...etc...the response I get is "I am getting there" or "ok" (but they don't do it....or "forget" until I remind them for the 3rd time...which to me is 2 times too many many times...for a child who is either 11, 13,, or nearly 15). But it's the tone in which they talk to us...the way they respond...as if we are asking them to move the livingroom furniture to the front yard.

When the tone gets really bad, I will say, "I don't hang around with people who speak to me like that." Then, depending on whether it was horrible or just irritating, they will leave (really rude, not socially acceptable at all) or I will (rude but they wouldn't get kicked out of a restaurant for it).

5) just happened: we just got home from a camping trip, daughter has been busy doing something in her room, playing with her brothers, etc. Then, she got an idea in her head that she wanted to watch something on a DVD and we are just about ready to eat. I tell her that she needs to wait right now and her response was "I am so bored and you don't even care!" and stops off to her room.

Let her calm down a bit--don't escalate. Then when you call her to dinner, calmly explain that no, you don't really care whether she's bored because that's her problem to deal with, and she can apologize for her harsh tone before dinner. Seriously, punishment won't work. All this will sink in after 10,000 times. Really.

We want to get our children's opinions, thoughts, ideas....but they can't seem to express themselves in a way that isn't disrespectful or agumenatvie.

Oh my god I am with you there. That is my life.

please give me some advice on this....before it gets any more out of hand than it is.

Joker · June 10, 2015

1) I am NOT obsessing about the light thing because of the energy it is is using. I could care less about that...it's the idea that she is asked to do something and doesn't quite gets around to getting it done until I get upset....whether it's emptying the dishwasher, cleaning her room, feeding the pets, weeding HER strawberry bed..THAT is the issue..not the lights.

5) I totally get that she was tired tonight. And if that was the only time this sort of thing happened, I wouldn't have made a deal out of it at all...but that sort of thing happens often...tired or not, hungry or not...

the overall arching issue is attitude...and willingness to obey when told to do what needs to be done. How is that any different than "you have these 3 chores to do, make sure they get done" that seems to be common in most people's homes. Our issue is I can't seem to figure out how to make that happen without drama, arguing, and tension.

I don't think I nag...until I have asked too many times...which is what I am trying to change. I know I am not expecting too much...they aren't 5 anymore...I have just allowed them to be too lazy sometimes.

My kids are great kids...they really are. When they want to be, they are kind, considerate, helpful kids. But they go through these times where their attitude needs a major adjustment...and I am not sure how to help them with that.

AND when they are helpful, kind, considerate i thank them, I praise them, I brag on them...I treat them...so, it's not like I am ignoring the good...

Am I still not clear as to what I am asking?

I think it still comes down to picking your battles. I do not expect my dds to be perfect or do everything I ask, when I ask. I have to pick the big stuff and they do well with those things. So, could it be that maybe you are expecting obedience and compliance right away with every thing you ask? Could you maybe reevaluate?

Oldest must take care of her bunnies. That is non-negotiable. She knows that and does it every single day. The rest of her room may be messy for days, she may have clothes in the bathroom, and she may leave the light in her room on. She always takes care of her bunnies. She also always gets up in time for school and always does her schoolwork. She cleans her room when I ask, but I do not ask all the time. Maybe you need to prioritize and let some things go?

hornblower · June 10, 2015

the overall arching issue is attitude...and willingness to obey when told to do what needs to be done. How is that any different than "you have these 3 chores to do, make sure they get done" that seems to be common in most people's homes. Our issue is I can't seem to figure out how to make that happen without drama, arguing, and tension.

I don't think I nag...until I have asked too many times...which is what I am trying to change. I know I am not expecting too much...they aren't 5 anymore...I have just allowed them to be too lazy sometimes.

yeah, I don't know how to address that except that I somewhere along the way I stopped expecting them to obey. Technially, nobody obeys anyone here. We ask. The askee usually is pretty willing to assist or will say "can it wait?" or might say "um, I really don't want to. How important is this?" The effect is that everyone kind of obeys everone, kwim?

it's a transition as they hit the teen years & practice being adults.

I actually do nag but I call it making a list & staying on top of it. We tend to come up with tasks cooperatively & then I just stay on top of them to make sure they're done. So some things are just part of the routines (again, cooperatively agreed upon) and other things might be on the 'day list'..

For general stuff - my particular sisyphian task was convincing ds that YES THE TOILET SEAT NEEDS TO GO DOWN & if you miss the toilet altogether YOU have to clean it up - it really boiled down to me endlessly checking and calmly reminding. And funny notes stuck on walls and some general silliness to break the monotony. And eventually I realized that I checked but nothing needed saying & gradually it stopped being an issue.

Jean in Newcastle · June 10, 2015

I would get the book "Smart but Scattered" as more than one of your children sounds like they might have some executive function issues.

goldberry · June 10, 2015

DD is very big on procrastinating. We still haven't totally resolved it. Usually, I ask her to do something, then give her a reasonable amount of time to do it. If it needs to be done NOW, then I go to her and say very specifically, "I need you to stop what you are doing and go do blah-blah." Even then, if she says, can I finish this one thing, I will let her do that. Or, now that she is a bit older, I will say, "blah-blah needs to be done before lunch (or before we leave, whatever)". But you can see, I wouldn't do that for turning off a light. I have to save that for things that *really* need to be done. The light I would turn off by myself. I am with the other posters who said to pick the few things that matter and let MANY other things go, that way you don't feel like you are constantly nagging.

The attitude, I try to just let slide as much as I can. When it gets too much, when she was younger we would have a sit-down, where I explained that I know she gets frustrated, tired, angry, etc., but that I also have feelings and it hurts me for her to speak to me like that. Rinse, repeat. Sometimes no sit down, just a look. Not a look that says, "Oh no you didn't just say that" But a look that says, "That was really hurtful." Or even just saying those words. Approaching it from that angle made it less a power struggle and more just communication. Almost always she would feel bad and apologize honestly. Now sometimes I only have to say, "You know, I don't appreciate you talking to me like that." in a very neutral tone. Usually she gets it right away. I try not to take it personally.

Example with the camping outburst... I probably wouldn't say anything at the time at all. If I felt it was part of a larger pattern and not just an isolated grumpy outburst, I would approach her *the next day* and say, you know, we all were tired from camping, but it's important that we don't take that out on each other when we are all worn out. Keep it short and sweet, and then move on. The "next day" or "later in the day" approach has served me well. With a teen, often if you try to deal with it in the moment it only becomes a power struggle.

goldberry · June 10, 2015

Example about picking battles...when we had one bathroom, I was totally grossed out by DD leaving a wad of her hair in the tub drain every time. Towels on the floor, whatever - hair in the tub drain - NO. I kept asking and she kept forgetting... for months.

Finally I just sat down and said, "Look, I have a thing about hair in the tub drain, it makes me think a small animal has died there. This is my thing that for whatever reason *totally freaks me out* and I am seriously asking you to just respect that and *remove your hair from the tub drain* or I may have a melt down."

She was amused by my weird obsession with tub drain hair, but she made an honest effort to remove it. The few times she forgot and I did remind her, she followed up with no snarky comments at all.

Again though, that only works if you aren't doing it with everything.

extendedforecast · June 10, 2015

Let me first explain myself about how we USED to discpline the kids...one child was climbing up a tricky part of the climber at the park, the older one comes up behind them and they start to climb...faster causing the younger one to go more quickly then they should. I tell the older one to wait until the younger one is at the top. She waits at first, but then continues on. I tell her she now needs to go up the climber another way because she didn't listen and obey. I see nothing wrong with that. But now that the kids are older, that method doesn't work.

ok...now let me give you a couple examples:

1) I noticed that my daughter for the 1000th time left her light on in her bedroom. I mentioned it to her and she said she would take care of it. After about 20 minutes I noticed that she did not take care of it and when I said something again, she responded disrespectfully. "I told you I would do it in a minute" kind of answer. What would you have done?

2) another BIG problem we have is EXCESSIVE bossiness of the big kids to the youngest. And now the youngest one thinks he can boss his older siblings. And whenever we step in, all we get is arguing, trying to defend why they have the right to tell the other one what to do, or how to act, or what to stop doing, etc. Sometimes they have a good point...sometimes they are actually acting out of love and care (the other doing something dangerous or just plain stupid), but most of the time is because the one bossing is annoyed by a certain behavior or something. I try to just stop the arguing, but it always ends up with a dramatic "you NEVER listen to me" or "you ALWAYS take ______'s side" or "you NEVER understand". How do I handle these things?

3) today as we were packing up our camper from a weekend camping trip, my husband was hitching the camper to the SUV and my son who wanted to help, thought he knew better how to do something...so he plunged ahead...and no matter how many times my husband told him to stop, he just kept on going...and going would have been really bad for the camper. This sort of thing happens a lot with this particular child. He sometimes has really good ideas...so in his mind that translates into ALWAYS having better ideas than the adult who is present. And even when an adult tells him no, or stop, don't, or wait...he doesn't. What should be his punishment? He has broken, damaged, ruined things because this impulsive behavior.

4) similar to example 1, often when I ask/tell my children to do something...take their clean clothes to their room and put them away, clean up the school room since they took out 3 games and left them all over the floor, left bikes, balls and rip stiks outside...etc...the response I get is "I am getting there" or "ok" (but they don't do it....or "forget" until I remind them for the 3rd time...which to me is 2 times too many many times...for a child who is either 11, 13,, or nearly 15). But it's the tone in which they talk to us...the way they respond...as if we are asking them to move the livingroom furniture to the front yard.

5) just happened: we just got home from a camping trip, daughter has been busy doing something in her room, playing with her brothers, etc. Then, she got an idea in her head that she wanted to watch something on a DVD and we are just about ready to eat. I tell her that she needs to wait right now and her response was "I am so bored and you don't even care!" and stops off to her room.

We want to get our children's opinions, thoughts, ideas....but they can't seem to express themselves in a way that isn't disrespectful or agumenatvie.

please give me some advice on this....before it gets any more out of hand than it is.

I'll answer the first situation, but I need to go to bed, so I'll have to come back tomorrow for the others. So lights left on drive me batty. Having to ask more than once drives me batty. I tend to go one of two ways. I'll ask sweetly like, "Hey sweetie? Would you run up and turn off your bedroom light? I think you forgot to turn it off on your way out." I'd say 60-70% of the time the child does as I ask. If she doesn't get around to it, and it's driving me crazy, I'll just run up and turn it off myself. Sometimes it makes me grumpy that I was ignored and that I had to do it myself, and I don't hide it. No I don't throw a tantrum, and I don't try to manipulate or guilt my kids either. But I think it's healthy for them to realize that their actions or non action can make the people they live with annoyed or upset. When the child wonders why I'm grumpy, I tell her that I'm annoyed that she didn't turn off the lights and I had to do it myself. And I shouldn't have to do it, since I wasn't the person who left it on. Child apologizes and that's the end of it. Usually she tries to be more intentional about turning off lights for a while. For the times when I don't get around to turning it off myself, it gets left on and eventually burns out quickly. This happened a few times with my daughter's closet and personal bathroom. When she asked me to get her light bulbs changed, I told her that I wouldn't be able to get around to it until the weekend or maybe the next, but she could do it herself if she wanted. She lived without the closet light, which is great because it meant no electricity was being wasted. But when the bathroom light went out, she decided to do it herself. She went to get a chair, find some light bulbs, realized that the chair was too low, struggled up the stairs with the ladder, changed the bulb and put everything away. I guess that was a lot of work, because I haven't had to remind her to turn off the lights again. I just really try not to repeat myself. It makes me come across as a nagger, and who likes to be nagged?

Paige · June 10, 2015

maybe discipline is the wrong word to use...instead, how do I handle these situations?

I'll answer this with what I think philosophically rather what I actually do. I fail so often to live up to my parenting ideals and frequently become frustrated and resort to yelling, removal of privileges, and other threats that seem ridiculously unrelated to the actual offense.

I think that we should treat teenagers much like we treat toddlers in situations like you described. Not that we should be overbearing or disrespectful, but when I had frustrating behaviors from my 1yr old, the most common advice was just to expect it and be consistent. If I expected my DS to pull the cords or try to eat dog food, when he did it, I was far less annoyed and more able to be on my game. A toddler's job is to explore and our job is to redirect. People told me to redirect him over and over and eventually the lesson would stick. He no longer eats dog food- a win for me!

With teenagers, I think the ideal approach would be to patiently remind your DC to please turn off the lights with a brief reason- it costs money, wastes energy or whatever, then turn it off or have her do it and move on. Rinse and repeat, and she'll probably grow up to turn lights off. When she speaks disrespectfully, my ideal parent would calmly say something about it being rude and unnecessary and model an appropriate way to speak when irritated. Eventually they'll learn if we are calm and consistent. That's my mantra- calm and consistent...

Do not engage in the argument. My DS is a pro at this and I had my biggest win in forever tonight. He was actually cleaning his room really well without complaining. I told him I was impressed and he was doing a good job. He said he quit whining and just did it because, "I'm all out of whines and arguments because I figured out it wasn't having any affect!" Usually he is a master of drawing me in before I even realize what's happening.

Ideally, I would realize that a lot of "their problems" aren't really my problems to fix. I need to model how to deal with difficult people in a positive way (the kids being my difficult people at times!) and I need to expect that they will try out behaviors that I don't like and don't take it personally. I also need to give up my pride in their behavior and refuse to be embarrassed when my teen displays age appropriate annoying behavior. People can stuff it if they judge me when my 2 yr old throws a fit just like they can stuff it when my teenager throws out an eye roll and sass. I'm trying to deal with it, but everyone's been there and nobody should judge a parent for stuff like that! I think we sometimes get anxious and think if we don't stop this behavior right now then DC will grow up and live in a van down by the river or be a total jerk, but for the most part it's not true. Most of them will naturally outgrow this behavior and be lovely adults regardless of what kind of discipline style we approach as long as we are good models and show consistent love.

Of course, if kids are displaying unusually antisocial behavior that's different, but what you describe sounds pretty normal.

creekland · June 10, 2015

1) I noticed that my daughter for the 1000th time left her light on in her bedroom. I mentioned it to her and she said she would take care of it. After about 20 minutes I noticed that she did not take care of it and when I said something again, she responded disrespectfully. "I told you I would do it in a minute" kind of answer. What would you have done?

I'd turn it off without even having mentioned it the first time. In our family, we all do little things like that when we see needs. Sometimes we mention them (NOT in an accusing way) and other times we don't. It's simply not a battle physically or mentally.

2) another BIG problem we have is EXCESSIVE bossiness of the big kids to the youngest. And now the youngest one thinks he can boss his older siblings. And whenever we step in, all we get is arguing, trying to defend why they have the right to tell the other one what to do, or how to act, or what to stop doing, etc. Sometimes they have a good point...sometimes they are actually acting out of love and care (the other doing something dangerous or just plain stupid), but most of the time is because the one bossing is annoyed by a certain behavior or something. I try to just stop the arguing, but it always ends up with a dramatic "you NEVER listen to me" or "you ALWAYS take ______'s side" or "you NEVER understand". How do I handle these things?

They are mentally growing into roles and testing them out. I'd say something more humorous to diffuse the situation - something like, "Hey bud, you have to wait until you have your OWN kids before you get to make those decisions! Do you have a spouse picked out yet??? By using humor you get your point across in a nice way and they don't have to get offended. Since they're at that "weird" age regarding the opposite gender and even thinking about marriage or kids, they'll usually remember it more - and often times - quit doing things that will bring it up.

3) today as we were packing up our camper from a weekend camping trip, my husband was hitching the camper to the SUV and my son who wanted to help, thought he knew better how to do something...so he plunged ahead...and no matter how many times my husband told him to stop, he just kept on going...and going would have been really bad for the camper. This sort of thing happens a lot with this particular child. He sometimes has really good ideas...so in his mind that translates into ALWAYS having better ideas than the adult who is present. And even when an adult tells him no, or stop, don't, or wait...he doesn't. What should be his punishment? He has broken, damaged, ruined things because this impulsive behavior.

He WANTS to help. He needs places where he CAN help - where he can do it ALL BY HIMSELF. Find something appropriate and put him in charge (more than one something if you can). This is a GOOD thing. You want team players. Sure, if might be faster to do everything yourselves, but that's not the point of raising young adults.

If he breaks something, he needs to pay for it and fix it, of course. (Allow forgiveness for true accidents or lack of knowledge, but not with direction.)

4) similar to example 1, often when I ask/tell my children to do something...take their clean clothes to their room and put them away, clean up the school room since they took out 3 games and left them all over the floor, left bikes, balls and rip stiks outside...etc...the response I get is "I am getting there" or "ok" (but they don't do it....or "forget" until I remind them for the 3rd time...which to me is 2 times too many many times...for a child who is either 11, 13,, or nearly 15). But it's the tone in which they talk to us...the way they respond...as if we are asking them to move the livingroom furniture to the front yard.

This happens. They have now reached the stage where they are becoming themselves and not just youngsters who can be ordered around. Such is the life with teens. Use humor when you can. Recall this thread to my future DIL when you can't:

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/540328-to-my-future-dil/

The good thing I can report is that he is MUCH more conscious of these things now that he's back from his first year of college. They (often) do eventually figure some things out, but they will also be themselves, not younger forms of their parents. Not everything is important to every individual. My middle son is, and has always been, naturally neat. It's just the way they are.

5) just happened: we just got home from a camping trip, daughter has been busy doing something in her room, playing with her brothers, etc. Then, she got an idea in her head that she wanted to watch something on a DVD and we are just about ready to eat. I tell her that she needs to wait right now and her response was "I am so bored and you don't even care!" and stops off to her room.

She is bored and, in her own way, she's letting you know. It's time to figure out how to change that. Is she old enough to get a job? Is she old enough to volunteer? Teens are READY to move out and do things. Our country makes them stay "children" way too long IMO. Fortunately for us, since we live on a farm, our kids always had REAL jobs they did and it did a TON for their self-esteem and natural development. Not everyone has a farm though, so in this situation I'd be looking at brainstorming with her about how to change this. See if she can check into opportunities, or if she doesn't know how/what, then you do some lead work checking into things and put her on the right path.

Jobs (paid or volunteer) often do wonders for teens. I can't emphasize that enough.

1) I am NOT obsessing about the light thing because of the energy it is is using. I could care less about that...it's the idea that she is asked to do something and doesn't quite gets around to getting it done until I get upset....whether it's emptying the dishwasher, cleaning her room, feeding the pets, weeding HER strawberry bed..THAT is the issue..not the lights.

This is where you need to adjust. We don't boss our teens around if we want good relationships with them. It just doesn't happen. Some can get compliance, of course. That all depends upon the teen (first) and the nastiness/bossiness of the parent (second), but it's never a good idea.

Instead, you are looking at building up a team aspect. Let her room be her room. If it bugs you too much, close the door. If her strawberry bed doesn't get weeded, so what? It's hers. It's time for her to figure these things out. With household chores, we took turns in our house (including parents on this). Everyone knew when it was their turn, they did it. It was never an issue because all 5 of us had the same deal helping out. As my guys got older, they would sometimes even do things when it wasn't their turn. It was awesome to see. We never demanded a certain time though. If the dishes were still in the dishwasher when it came time to do the next load, the person whose turn it was simply told them and they did it.

AND when they are helpful, kind, considerate i thank them, I praise them, I brag on them...I treat them...so, it's not like I am ignoring the good...

Don't overdo this. It triggers the "boss" deal and turns them off. Once in a while is fine - just as we'd do with our spouse. You aren't their boss. You're a more experienced member of your team.

Am I still not clear as to what I am asking?

It's clear and it's common at this stage of parenting. Be aware that it can take both parents and kids time to adjust to any new normal as we're pretty set in our ways many times.

Some places offer parent/teen communication classes. Those could be worth looking into, but I'll admit I've never done one. My human nature has me working pretty well with most teens (though those in your own household are the most difficult as we expect more from our own family). My problems came more with the pre-teen group. My guys got treated like team members/teens from a pretty young age. Fortunately, it worked (for the most part). I still was the author of that "To my future DIL thread" so don't expect super miracles! :lol:

fairfarmhand · June 10, 2015

I'm going to come back later with specifics, but I need to go to my garden before the day gets hot.

One thing though...If you continue trying to parent teens the exact same way that you parented them as tots and school aged kids, you are going to drive a wedge between yourself and your kids. It happened in my family and in my husband's family.

In my family, it made me WAY less likely to listen to my parents when it was VERY important because they were always on my case about something, so I learned to tune it out. Why did I want to listen to someone who just carps at me all the time?

So, figuring out ways to manage this without being a nagging, griping witch is crucial. This is going to take change on your part and a shift in your expectations.

I'll come back later with specifics; I do have a dramatic, oppositional, stubborn, whiny 17 yo, so I do know what you are going through and how annoying it is, but I've learned better ways of handling these kinds of situations.

Greta · June 10, 2015

One thing though...If you continue trying to parent teens the exact same way that you parented them as tots and school aged kids, you are going to drive a wedge between yourself and your kids. It happened in my family and in my husband's family.

Yes. When I was 15, my mom was still talking to me the way she did when I was 5. Not only did this drive me crazy, it profoundly damaged our relationship. I avoided her whenever I could. I didn't want to be around her. I counted down the days until I could move away to college, and I visited home rarely after that. Things are better now, and I love my mom, but OP I know you deeply love your kids and you don't want this kind of dynamic! And I'm not saying that you have that. I'm just saying, I know you don't want to go there! :grouphug:

With my teen, obedience is not my goal. It's not even on my radar. I think of our relationship as more of a partnership now. It's no longer me directing and her following, like it was when she was little. It's working together to figure out where we want to go and how to get there. (I'm NOT saying I always succeed at this and I'm just such a fantastic parent. HA! I'm just saying that's my philosophy and my approach. I do fall short of my ideals. All the time.) My mom has explained to me that she felt desperate to protect and direct me, and she apparently didn't know how to do that except by controlling, bossing, and nagging me. I've tried to learn from her mistakes, and so my philosophy with my daughter is: "treat her like an adult, and she will act like an adult." She's my first and only, and the experiment is a work in progress, but so far it seems to be working out very nicely!

Yes, when she was little, I taught her to turn the lights off when she left a room. She generally remembers now, but when she doesn't, I just turn it off. Done. Same when my husband leaves his closet light on, which he does practically every day. I don't nag him about it, I just turn it off. If it were a chronic issue, I would take my daughter to Lowe's and buy some super energy-efficient bulbs for her bedroom and bathroom while chatting about the reasons for it, and that would be that.

If my daughter said she wanted to watch a movie right before dinner, I would respond the same way as if my husband said he was going to watch a movie right before dinner. "Okay, Sweetie, just be aware that dinner will be ready in five minutes." Then let her make the decision. If she wants to go to all the trouble of getting it started just to have to stop it right away, then let her. No harm done. If she'd rather watch the movie than eat, again same as for my husband, I let her make the decision. She almost always does eat dinner with us, but if she isn't hungry, I don't force it. She can warm up leftovers later if she wants to.

I do think the issue with your son wanting to help, and then ending up damaging things or possibly hurting someone - that's kind of in a different category. When safety is an issue, then you do have to be "bossy". I think this has already been suggested, but I would have a real heart to heart talk with him about it sometime when it is *not* happening, so that it's not an emtionally charged conversation. Let him know in advance than when you or your husband say "stop" you really need him to understand that it's for the safety of both the property and the people involved, and that you are confident that he can handle that responsibility like the capable young man that he is. He obviously wants very much to be seen as capable, and that's a good thing. He just needs a little more direction, maybe some more jobs and tasks that you know he can do well, or that challenge him just a bit (but not too much).

Well, I don't know if any of that will prove helpful at all, but :grouphug: OP. You're doing great, and your kids sound great - normal, and great! :D

Doodlebug · June 10, 2015

...

fairfarmhand · June 10, 2015

Let me first explain myself about how we USED to discpline the kids...one child was climbing up a tricky part of the climber at the park, the older one comes up behind them and they start to climb...faster causing the younger one to go more quickly then they should. I tell the older one to wait until the younger one is at the top. She waits at first, but then continues on. I tell her she now needs to go up the climber another way because she didn't listen and obey. I see nothing wrong with that. But now that the kids are older, that method doesn't work.

ok...now let me give you a couple examples:

1) I noticed that my daughter for the 1000th time left her light on in her bedroom. I mentioned it to her and she said she would take care of it. After about 20 minutes I noticed that she did not take care of it and when I said something again, she responded disrespectfully. "I told you I would do it in a minute" kind of answer. What would you have done?

Can you make the light turning off thing into a game? Give each person in the family 4 quarters in a jar on the counter. If someone discovers that someone else left the lights on they get to take a quarter. When one person loses all their quarters, everyone else gets to put the money they've collected in their wallets, you pass out 4 more quarters and the game starts over.

Key to this approach is that YOU and DAD need to participate to make it fun. ANNNDDD....You intentionally "let" them catch you from time to time.

If you don't want to use money, you can use tokens of some sort. Then when one person's tokens are gone, that person bakes a batch of cupcakes for the rest of the family (including cleaning the kitchen) that you all can enjoy after supper. If nobody "loses" in a week, you take the whole bunch of kids out for ice cream Sunday night.

Trick is to make it fun and upbeat and the idea is to make it a new habit. You probably won't have to continue this project for too long before they get in the habit.

2) another BIG problem we have is EXCESSIVE bossiness of the big kids to the youngest. And now the youngest one thinks he can boss his older siblings. And whenever we step in, all we get is arguing, trying to defend why they have the right to tell the other one what to do, or how to act, or what to stop doing, etc. Sometimes they have a good point...sometimes they are actually acting out of love and care (the other doing something dangerous or just plain stupid), but most of the time is because the one bossing is annoyed by a certain behavior or something. I try to just stop the arguing, but it always ends up with a dramatic "you NEVER listen to me" or "you ALWAYS take ______'s side" or "you NEVER understand". How do I handle these things?

"Excuse me, I am the mom here." Rinse repeat. WHen you get argument and drama, shrug, turn and walk away.

3) today as we were packing up our camper from a weekend camping trip, my husband was hitching the camper to the SUV and my son

who wanted to help, thought he knew better how to do something...so he plunged ahead...and no matter how many times my husband told him to stop, he just kept on going...and going would have been really bad for the camper. This sort of thing happens a lot with this particular child. He sometimes has really good ideas...so in his mind that translates into ALWAYS having better ideas than the adult who is present. And even when an adult tells him no, or stop, don't, or wait...he doesn't. What should be his punishment? He has broken, damaged, ruined things because this impulsive behavior.

This is a bit different. My dh, my dd, and my ds all have one track minds. So if they are in the middle of working something out mentally, they will not listen well. They may or may not hear me. So, for this kind of kid, you just STOP. Even if you're in a hurry. You do not continue. You stop the project and stand there staring at him. If he still doesn't get it, you go over, take him by the arm and look him directly in the eyes. "You are not listening, You are not paying attention to what I'm telling you. Go in the house. I cannot trust you to help with this project." In other words, you stop talking and act. Talking won't help with this sort of focused concentration.

4) similar to example 1, often when I ask/tell my children to do something...take their clean clothes to their room and put them away, clean up the school room since they took out 3 games and left them all over the floor, left bikes, balls and rip stiks outside...etc...the response I get is "I am getting there" or "ok" (but they don't do it....or "forget" until I remind them for the 3rd time...which to me is 2 times too many many times...for a child who is either 11, 13,, or nearly 15). But it's the tone in which they talk to us...the way they respond...as if we are asking them to move the livingroom furniture to the front yard.

bec

Your tone of voice may be getting more shrill with your continued reminders (because mine does!) and they may see the reminders as nagging. So bring them into this discussion.

"You know kids, I've noticed that I end up nagging and griping at you to get you to help out. I really hate that. It makes me crabby. My issue is that things are forgotten if I don't remind you, but I do get frustrated with having to remind you multiple times. And then you get frustrated at me for the way that I am talking to you. Do you have any ideas as to how to resolve this? "

Then brainstorm. Let everyone talk and offer ideas as to WHY things are forgotten (Maybe you are asking at a bad time? If it's something that can wait 15 minutes, I will try to ask at that point when they are not in the middle of an activity. Maybe they don't see things as important as you do. Okay. So for certain things, bikes left outside in the rain, perhaps that child needs to have the bike confiscated because bikes can get stolen and rusted, and that's being irresponsible with their possessions.) Let people brainstorm as to how you can get things done without resorting to nagging. (Perhaps a written list that is checked off before computer time happens or television time happens?)

Also, for things like putting stuff away, I do the "yes, but first approach." It goes like this:

"Mom, can I have a popsicle?"

"Yes you can. But first, go pick up the board game that you had out."

A variation of "yes, but first" is this: 2 hours before we leave for something, I say this

"We are leaving for x activity at 10:30. Before we leave, I need dd to empty the dryer and put away the towels, ds to dust the living room and feed the cat, dd to feed the chickens and check on the sheep, and I need dd to empty the dishwasher and load the towels in the washer. I will load the dirty dishes and sweep the kitchen If you don't get these done before we leave, I will have extra work when we get home."

Each of these tasks take like 5-10 minutes. (That's thing one, they can complete their tasks very quickly) Also, the kids hear that their siblings ALL have an equal amount of work.

Then I give a 30 minute warning. "We need to be out the door in 30 minutes. Is everyone getting ready? Does everyone have their chores done?"

I'm not above leaving a procrastinator at home for not completing tasks, or for things that can't be missed, the procrastinator gets extra chores when we get home.

My kids respond better when they are given plenty of advanced warning about chores that need to be done and when the whole group is expected to pitch in. I love taking the 15 minutes before supper as a time for everyone to do 2-3 quick cleaning tasks. This keeps them out of my hair when I am cooking and also makes the house look nicer.

When I interact this way with my kids, they've come to learn that when I do pull the "I need it done right now. Drop what you're doing and get to it!" That there's generally a really good reason.

My oldest dd complained about always having to load the dirty dishes. She wanted to unload the cleans from time to time in the morning. I told her that I wouldn't mind that, but if she is at work, I can't let the dirty breakfast dishes pile up until she gets home to unload the cleans. So that's why her younger sister got the job of unloading and she got the dirties. I offered to her that if she wanted to do cleans, she needed to allow time in the morning to get it done before work. And she was happy to comply.

5) just happened: we just got home from a camping trip, daughter has been busy doing something in her room, playing with her brothers, etc. Then, she got an idea in her head that she wanted to watch something on a DVD and we are just about ready to eat. I tell her that she needs to wait right now and her response was "I am so bored and you don't even care!" and stops off to her room.

I don't know that I'd even worry about it if she wanted to watch a movie right before dinner. I'd probably say, "Ok, but supper will be ready in 10 minutes and you will have to turn it off.": And allow her to choose what she wanted to do. But if you still didn't want her to watch it and told her no, then I'd just shrug off the dramatic response with an eye roll.

We want to get our children's opinions, thoughts, ideas....but they can't seem to express themselves in a way that isn't disrespectful or agumenatvie.

please give me some advice on this....before it gets any more out of hand than it is.

The huffy, overdramatic stuff can be ignored.

The manipulative "You don't care about me." Ignore. She's trying to draw you into an argument.

Step away from the arguing and silly discussions about stuff.

fairfarmhand · June 10, 2015

BTW, one thing I had to let go of is the expectation that it would get easier in the teen years than it was when they were little. In some respects, it is easier. They can help more, they can be more independent. They're not as physically exhausting.

But in other way, they are more emotionally needy. They need more talking through stuff with mom. They need to learn to speak appropriately. They need gentle but persistent ways. Yes it takes much more time to talk through some stuff than it would if I just barked orders and punished if they didn't immediately jump up to do it, but good parenting isn't always quick.

I also needed to change my mindset from compliance to cooperation. I shifted from getting them to instantly comply to getting them to cooperate with me.

(I had this unrealistic picture of a Duggar-Like family where the older kids just all pitched in and mom didn't have to do as much directing. However, my kids are not like that.)

Katy · June 11, 2015

I was going to respond, but Creekland already said everything I would have said.

Jean in Newcastle · June 11, 2015

Humor rocks.

Carol in Cal. · June 11, 2015

Emails take the sting out of things sometimes. Just saying.

Tsuga · June 11, 2015

I have a question.

Why bother teaching them to turn the lights off at all, if you give up when they are teens and it becomes a partnership in which I turn off all the lights?

What is the point? Or washing dishes. Or cleaning the room. If at some point I just stop and give up and say, this is my problem, then why did I bother for the 12 years leading up to it? They didn't learn and they won't learn. I'm the light lady, the toilet seat lady.

This is a serious question and not intended to sound snarky.

Jean in Newcastle · June 11, 2015

I have a question.

Why bother teaching them to turn the lights off at all, if you give up when they are teens and it becomes a partnership in which I turn off all the lights?

What is the point? Or washing dishes. Or cleaning the room. If at some point I just stop and give up and say, this is my problem, then why did I bother for the 12 years leading up to it? They didn't learn and they won't learn. I'm the light lady, the toilet seat lady.

)

This is a serious question and not intended to sound snarky.

Do you really think that teens don't know how to turn off a light?

In our family we are a team. We've always been a team. Even when they were little. When they were little, I had to teach them how to function on the team. Now that they are older, I recognize that they have their own agenda as well as my own, so my part of being a team player is to recognize and respect that. So I will say things like "When you have a minute can you _____________?" By me respecting them and treating them as part of the team (and not asking them to do stupid things) then they are so much more likely to respect me and to take ownership of the team.

Lights aren't that important to me. We don't tend to have them on during the day anyway and during the evening we're in and out of rooms so much that it isn't a big deal if they are on for a few moments while the room is empty. There are some things that are much more important to me - like putting food back into the fridge. This is something that my kids tend to forget and I see this as much more important and not "make work". But even then, I don't make it a big deal. I come in, see some things out and will call down the hall "put away the breakfast stuff" and ds (who is the main offender) will say "OK!" Sometimes he will forget because he got distracted by something else. So I'll call down the hall again "the breakfast stuff isn't putting itself away. . ." and ds will come running out to take care of it. No drama, no anger from either of us. There is a legitimate need and they do it. Sometimes I will peek in ds' room and see that he's deep into a physics test and I will let it go and will put away his breakfast stuff. And sometimes they will see that I'm in pain and will throw in a load of laundry for me because. . . we're a team.

Ausmumof3 · June 11, 2015

Let me first explain myself about how we USED to discpline the kids...one child was climbing up a tricky part of the climber at the park, the older one comes up behind them and they start to climb...faster causing the younger one to go more quickly then they should. I tell the older one to wait until the younger one is at the top. She waits at first, but then continues on. I tell her she now needs to go up the climber another way because she didn't listen and obey. I see nothing wrong with that. But now that the kids are older, that method doesn't work.

ok...now let me give you a couple examples:

1) I noticed that my daughter for the 1000th time left her light on in her bedroom. I mentioned it to her and she said she would take care of it. After about 20 minutes I noticed that she did not take care of it and when I said something again, she responded disrespectfully. "I told you I would do it in a minute" kind of answer. What would you have done?

Lights... Explain that everytime the light is left on it costs you money. Therefore said child will be paying for the wasted electricity... Also works for mistreating furniture etc.

These are logical consequences not being mean. I wouldn't do it so much for forgetfulness unless it was really chronic but if you reminded her and she still didn't do it I would. We have a tight budget and power is dear. Kids being wasteful with it equals my spending money going on the power bill.

2) another BIG problem we have is EXCESSIVE bossiness of the big kids to the youngest. And now the youngest one thinks he can boss his older siblings. And whenever we step in, all we get is arguing, trying to defend why they have the right to tell the other one what to do, or how to act, or what to stop doing, etc. Sometimes they have a good point...sometimes they are actually acting out of love and care (the other doing something dangerous or just plain stupid), but most of the time is because the one bossing is annoyed by a certain behavior or something. I try to just stop the arguing, but it always ends up with a dramatic "you NEVER listen to me" or "you ALWAYS take ______'s side" or "you NEVER understand". How do I handle these things?

Bossiness... Listen to your own tone and your husbands. If you are on the authoritarian side they will be as well. If you place responsibility for the littles behaviour on the bigs they will need to be bossy not to get in trouble.

Listen and use reflective listening technique. So repeat back what they said in your words. So they know that you heard and understood them. If you disagree explain why but only after demonstrating that you actually heard.

3) today as we were packing up our camper from a weekend camping trip, my husband was hitching the camper to the SUV and my son who wanted to help, thought he knew better how to do something...so he plunged ahead...and no matter how many times my husband told him to stop, he just kept on going...and going would have been really bad for the camper. This sort of thing happens a lot with this particular child. He sometimes has really good ideas...so in his mind that translates into ALWAYS having better ideas than the adult who is present. And even when an adult tells him no, or stop, don't, or wait...he doesn't. What should be his punishment? He has broken, damaged, ruined things because this impulsive behavior.

All of my family have this issue to one degree or another... We can be know it all ish. I don't have the answer for it other than humility comes with age. I would possibly expect payment or work to fix what was damaged depending on the situation.

4) similar to example 1, often when I ask/tell my children to do something...take their clean clothes to their room and put them away, clean up the school room since they took out 3 games and left them all over the floor, left bikes, balls and rip stiks outside...etc...the response I get is "I am getting there" or "ok" (but they don't do it....or "forget" until I remind them for the 3rd time...which to me is 2 times too many many times...for a child who is either 11, 13,, or nearly 15). But it's the tone in which they talk to us...the way they respond...as if we are asking them to move the livingroom furniture to the front yard.

I have this problem too.

5) just happened: we just got home from a camping trip, daughter has been busy doing something in her room, playing with her brothers, etc. Then, she got an idea in her head that she wanted to watch something on a DVD and we are just about ready to eat. I tell her that she needs to wait right now and her response was "I am so bored and you don't even care!" and stops off to her room.

Why can't she watch the DVD then pause it at tea time?

We want to get our children's opinions, thoughts, ideas....but they can't seem to express themselves in a way that isn't disrespectful or agumenatvie.

please give me some advice on this....before it gets any more out of hand than it is.

Answers after your questions but I don't have teens so take it all with a pinch of salt... Pretty sure we will run into our own set of problems...

eternalsummer · June 11, 2015

I would not bother casting the leaving the lights on issue as a matter of $; the average energy-saving light bulb costs something like a cent or two a day to run; probably she'd be happy to give you $5 or so (500 days worth of leaving on the light) to not bother her about it for a year.

On the other hand, 10 minutes of a shower costs something like $.55 in electricity, so a 1-minute slower showerer is costing you a lot more per day than a kid who leaves the light on all the time. (although both amounts are probably pretty trivial for most people)

creekland · June 11, 2015

I have a question.

Why bother teaching them to turn the lights off at all, if you give up when they are teens and it becomes a partnership in which I turn off all the lights?

What is the point? Or washing dishes. Or cleaning the room. If at some point I just stop and give up and say, this is my problem, then why did I bother for the 12 years leading up to it? They didn't learn and they won't learn. I'm the light lady, the toilet seat lady.

This is a serious question and not intended to sound snarky.

We teach our kids many things throughout their lives - everything from putting on their clothes or crossing the street safely to complex Algebra (for most) or our ideas of how relationships should work. It's important for us to teach them. It's our job.

But there comes a time (in their mid teens) when we have to come to the realization that they are their own person. They may, or may not, value the same things we do. Better yet, we come to the realization that they don't HAVE to value the same things we do and we still love them and enjoy having them on our family team.

As Jean pointed out, they now know how to turn on a light, pick up clothes, and pretty much everything else they were taught as a kid. (They're likely still learning the Algebra+ and more about relationships - learning never really stops.)

On top of that, the teen years are years when the brain has grown significantly and our teens are still learning to negotiate all the new neurons they have. Remembering simple things like lights? Should that really be a battle? Do we want our teens involved in a continual battle to be perfect, even though their brains aren't really capable of that (for most) yet? Do WE want to be in a continual battle? I don't.

Honestly? Teens are going to grow into the adults they will be WITHOUT us making their teen lives a continual battlefield. I don't have them at my fingertips, but I know I've read articles about how the MORE we make their lives a battlefield the MORE issues (mental & physical) they have later in their lives. We save our battles for things that are important. In the teen years, those were more associated with things they were still learning (homework, remembering to keep mom & dad in the loop when visiting friends, etc). We also rarely demanded obedience, but rather used words that were far nicer. "Let's think about our schedule... when is that paper getting completed again?" This also helps them THINK through their schedule rather than just having it dictated for them and never learning anything from it.

As Jean said, in our house we work as a team. My kids have grown up seeing a family work as a team. Now that they are returning from college I get to reap the rewards of my guys doing things WITHOUT being told - for some things - even without suggestions. It's wonderful. I can still turn off a light or two or maybe they do for me. ;) Hubby and I do the same for each other. Who needs the stress of keeping track of little things?

If we had all grown up as our parents raised us... I'd be a Hoarder. Hubby would be a neat freak. We've settled into a terrific marriage only focusing on things important to us cleanliness-wise. His mom would be appalled. My dad would marvel at how much free space we have and assume we need more things. ;)

KrissiK · June 11, 2015

I didn't read all the replies. I have five kids... The oldest one is 12, then 11 and on down to 4. I struggle with them a lot, but two things I'm really working at are....

1) leverage. You have to find the leverage with your kids and work it. You said you don't do much electronics, well, that's fine, but there has to be leverage somewhere with your kids. Use it!

2) we try to use the principle "If A, then B" for anything they have to get done. "If your chores are done, then you can play" and absolutely not before. We do electronics in a limited basis,but they are not allowed to do them unless.... School work is done, zones are clean, personal laundry baskets are emptied. That is our leverage. As kids get older, it's not so much punishment as leverage and that takes some thought, but it does work.

Regarding things like lights.... I've given up. Or I'll do things like... "oh, don't bother getting up! I've got it!" My kids hate that!

Tsuga · June 12, 2015

Do you really think that teens don't know how to turn off a light?

In our family we are a team. We've always been a team. Even when they were little. When they were little, I had to teach them how to function on the team. Now that they are older, I recognize that they have their own agenda as well as my own, so my part of being a team player is to recognize and respect that. So I will say things like "When you have a minute can you _____________?" By me respecting them and treating them as part of the team (and not asking them to do stupid things) then they are so much more likely to respect me and to take ownership of the team.

Lights aren't that important to me. We don't tend to have them on during the day anyway and during the evening we're in and out of rooms so much that it isn't a big deal if they are on for a few moments while the room is empty. There are some things that are much more important to me - like putting food back into the fridge. This is something that my kids tend to forget and I see this as much more important and not "make work". But even then, I don't make it a big deal. I come in, see some things out and will call down the hall "put away the breakfast stuff" and ds (who is the main offender) will say "OK!" Sometimes he will forget because he got distracted by something else. So I'll call down the hall again "the breakfast stuff isn't putting itself away. . ." and ds will come running out to take care of it. No drama, no anger from either of us. There is a legitimate need and they do it. Sometimes I will peek in ds' room and see that he's deep into a physics test and I will let it go and will put away his breakfast stuff. And sometimes they will see that I'm in pain and will throw in a load of laundry for me because. . . we're a team.

They know how to do it. They don't fully get the long term consequences (global wArming) or financial aspect.

We DO have the lights on all the time. Not me. Everyone else. It's frustrating and I get that teens forget, as do we all. But you're in pain, so they help.

I am not in pain. I could do 100% of the work around here without a wince. They know this and therefore subconsciously take advantage. And who wouldn't? It's not like I need their help. I can do it all, and better. The only reason I don't is to teach them to take part. But unlike in your home, there is no natural limit to my team contribution.

Iilt's great that your kids love you and are 't spoiled and listen and care. I know the pain sucks beyond imagining but apparently you got decent kids out of it.

Our kids don't feel for us like that. They help out because of imposed consequences, though, not natural consequences. The natural consequence to their rudeness or not helping is actually nothing. We just do it.

So there is no team because they don't care about us. Not like that.

And why should they? we don't need them. We love them but we could do all this ourselves.

Jean in Newcastle · June 12, 2015

Well, it is true that my kids help because I have physical limitations but that isn't the only reason they help.

Working as a team has always been a goal around here on good days and bad. Not only is it a priority, but it is something that we find enriching and simply fun.

When my kids were little we played the Elf Game. I would fold the clothes and the kids would try to sneak clothes off of the bed where I put them and quick put them away without me catching them. Of course I could see them, but I made a big deal out of looking off into the distance and not seeing them until the last minute and then trying to catch them to lots of giggles. They loved "Elfing it" and even as teens will play the game at times. It's silly but it gets the work done and we build our team (family) while we do it.

During the summer we often have Round Robin days. We rock-paper-scissors to choose an order of who gets to choose music. Then we each choose a task or area to declutter or clean for 20 minutes. The person who has musical choice gets to put on music loud enough for all to hear - ds tends to choose metal as long as it isn't too heavy, dd chooses pop and I tend to choose Santana. At the end of twenty minutes a timer goes off. We switch musical choice to the next person, choose a new task (or to continue the first one if we want) and go again for another 20 minutes. We tend to do this for an hour or two. And no one complains. Everyone is working hard. No one is nagging. No one is micromanaging. I am working alongside them and more than musical choice etc. - this is what makes the difference.

Tomorrow dh is off of work. He wants to work in our jungle of a yard. Ds cannot help due to severe allergies but dd has already volunteered to help. I will help too though I can only manage 10 min. at a time. Dh isn't good at the games but he will be out there working alongside my dd and dd is happy to work alongside him because they will laugh and talk and will connect in a special way.

My kids do have some chores that they do daily and repetitively. They aren't always thrilled to do them. They would have these chores no matter what the state of my health. And yes, sometimes I have to remind them to do them. I don't see the occasional reminder as a big thing.

creekland · June 12, 2015

They know how to do it. They don't fully get the long term consequences (global wArming) or financial aspect.

We DO have the lights on all the time. Not me. Everyone else. It's frustrating and I get that teens forget, as do we all. But you're in pain, so they help.

I am not in pain. I could do 100% of the work around here without a wince. They know this and therefore subconsciously take advantage. And who wouldn't? It's not like I need their help. I can do it all, and better. The only reason I don't is to teach them to take part. But unlike in your home, there is no natural limit to my team contribution.

Iilt's great that your kids love you and are 't spoiled and listen and care. I know the pain sucks beyond imagining but apparently you got decent kids out of it.

Our kids don't feel for us like that. They help out because of imposed consequences, though, not natural consequences. The natural consequence to their rudeness or not helping is actually nothing. We just do it.

So there is no team because they don't care about us. Not like that.

And why should they? we don't need them. We love them but we could do all this ourselves.

And the reason my kids naturally help out is??? No similar "I can't do it" health issues here.

It's a bit in how they were raised I suspect (always pitching in with real jobs where they felt like a needed part of the family) and another bit that they don't consider home life to be a continual battle with different teams fighting each other.

Switching your youngsters' thoughts into teamwork rather than battlefield is likely challenging. I can do that fairly easily with school kids, but that's because "leadership" changes and all of us (not necessarily just teens) automatically adjust to different standards with different conditions. I'm not sure I would be able to do it for my own kids. It could be worth it to check into parent/teen communication suggestions from those with more expertise than I have. I have to "train" 9th graders every year as school kids advance through the grades, but all of that is done via intuition more than a specific plan.

fairfarmhand · June 12, 2015

They know how to do it. They don't fully get the long term consequences (global wArming) or financial aspect.

We DO have the lights on all the time. Not me. Everyone else. It's frustrating and I get that teens forget, as do we all. But you're in pain, so they help.

I am not in pain. I could do 100% of the work around here without a wince. They know this and therefore subconsciously take advantage. And who wouldn't? It's not like I need their help. I can do it all, and better. The only reason I don't is to teach them to take part. But unlike in your home, there is no natural limit to my team contribution.

Iilt's great that your kids love you and are 't spoiled and listen and care. I know the pain sucks beyond imagining but apparently you got decent kids out of it.

Our kids don't feel for us like that. They help out because of imposed consequences, though, not natural consequences. The natural consequence to their rudeness or not helping is actually nothing. We just do it.

So there is no team because they don't care about us. Not like that.

And why should they? we don't need them. We love them but we could do all this ourselves.

My kids respond well to the idea of fairness. It isn't fair for one or two people to do all of the work in one household. I try to link their work with what they do. In other words, everyone can pitch in on dishes because everyone eats. My bigger kids do their own laundry because they wore the clothes. I don't ask them to clean my bathroom because they seldom use it. We all contribute to dirty floors and baseboards. We all live on a farm, (and the kids know this is a privilege that their friends don't have. They enjoy having chicks and sheep and horses,) and with teh farm comes responsibilities of caring for the animals.

There are things that dad and I do that they can't like work for money, call the insurance company, get the tires rotated and the oil changed on the cars, teach in homeschool....So they know that they need to do the things that they CAN do, to free up dad and I for the stuff they CAN'T do.

Now, it's not tthat they always do it out of love and consideration. Often there is some grumbling. But I continue to ask cheerfully, and once they get started, they just do it. I've also trained them that if they don't do it right the first time, they will have to come back and do it correctly later. (often with some whining and grumping that I ignore) They've learned that it's just best to get the unpleasant stuff out of the way because it is not going to go away, and no one is going to do it for them.

The Well-Trained Mind Extended Guide

getting back the discipline I have lost...can you help

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