NOOOOOO!

[brehon]

I guess she decided to follow it up with the lesser-known A Well Lost Mind and decided to go with that instead.

 

See, I think that I could provide a couple of chapters for that book and I don't live anywhere near like the Nauglers live.

[Elfknitter.#]

Sooo..all the people that died of lockjaw weren't actually alive to start with? That's her conclusion???

 

Clearly, they were zombies. The lockjaw prevented them from eating more brains.

[Seasider]

See, I think that I could provide a couple of chapters for that book and I don't live anywhere near like the Nauglers live.

Same here! The other thread about year end awards comes to mind. Best Dramatic Performance by a Fourth Grader Avoiding Cursive and the like.

[Mimm]

An answer to our previous questions about tetanus shots... 

 

Out of boredom, I was checking out her blog.  Under her "Education" section, I was hoping to see what she used for curric.  Instead her 'education' is on Vaccine information and links she found helpful.  Two of them were dead links, the third worked.

 

http://blessedlittlehomestead.org/education/

 

Under Tetanus Vaccine: Fact or Fiction  this is what I found: 

 

So what is Tetanus?

Tetanus is the name of a sickness you get when the bacterium Clostridium tetani enters your body and flourishes (with a life cycle). The emphasis should be on ‘flourishes’ because Clostridium tetani requires an anaerobic environment. What does this mean? It means for the bacterium to survive, it must be in an environment free of oxygen.

 

In other words, to get sick with Tetanus, you must get the Clostridium tetani into your body, such as through the infamous example of stepping on a nail. Then you must ensure that the wound does not get oxygenated (does not bleed and is not exposed to air) and you must ensure the bacterium multiplies enough to start a life cycle, because the toxins released when they die is what causes Tetanus symptoms.

 

Summary: Tetanus requires a wound that is deep enough and neglected enough to create an anaerobic environment so that the bacteria can flourish, die off and spread a toxin in the body. The incubation period is 3-21 days, the average being 8 days.

 

And what does it mean to ‘oxygenate’? It means to bleed. Blood is oxygenated by passing through the lungs and then flowing through the body to oxygenate all the tissues. That is how we live. We are oxygenated creatures. So if you step on a nail and you bleed, the Clostridium tetani cannot live. In other words, Tetanus is impossible to get if you are alive, pumping blood normally through your body and taking care of the wound.

 

Feel bamboozled yet?

So I'm thinking that would be a big NO on where she got tetanus for her kids.

 

Just when you think you've heard it all.... you read another anti-vaxx post. ;)

 

[Heather in VA]

And we are supposed to read something like that and still feel that she's providing them an excellent education???

[Spryte]

I hope CPS will update their shots, as part of their medical. Clearly, there's a tetanus concern on that property.

[Renai]

Where is the facepalm emoticon?!?

[Heather in VA]

I hope CPS will update their shots, as part of their medical. Clearly, there's a tetanus concern on that property.

 

Maybe those who foster can answer this. I would hope so too but I wonder if it's legal. They have lost custody but not their parental rights so I think they might have to have permission from the Naugler's to vaccinate.

[Spryte]

Maybe those who foster can answer this. I would hope so too but I wonder if it's legal. They have lost custody but not their parental rights so I think they might have to have permission from the Naugler's to vaccinate.

We foster, but in a different state, and have only had babies. The babies followed the recommended vac schedule. I don't know how it would work with older kids, though.

[idnib]

Summary: Tetanus requires a wound that is deep enough and neglected enough to create an anaerobic environment so that the bacteria can flourish, die off and spread a toxin in the body. The incubation period is 3-21 days, the average being 8 days.

And what does it mean to ‘oxygenate’? It means to bleed. Blood is oxygenated by passing through the lungs and then flowing through the body to oxygenate all the tissues. That is how we live. We are oxygenated creatures. So if you step on a nail and you bleed, the Clostridium tetani cannot live. In other words, Tetanus is impossible to get if you are alive, pumping blood normally through your body and taking care of the wound.

 

Well I don't want this thread to turn into a vaccine debate, but I will add that they call themselves "naturopaths" (question 5 in the link) and don't even know what that means. That's an actual degree. NDs go through 4 years of school. She graduated from high school and he has an AA.

[Heather in VA]

Well I don't want this thread to turn into a vaccine debate, but I will add that they call themselves "naturopaths" (question 5 in the link) and don't even know what that means. That's an actual degree. NDs go through 4 years of school. She graduated from high school and he has an AA.

 

Not only that but in many states it requires a license. This is akin to someone attending a few births and pronouncing themselves a midwife. 

[Ottakee]

Maybe those who foster can answer this. I would hope so too but I wonder if it's legal. They have lost custody but not their parental rights so I think they might have to have permission from the Naugler's to vaccinate.

It might depend on what the judge orders.  They might have signed a religious exemption form and the kids won't need to get shots but we have never had that in our 100+ foster kids........then again we never had a family quite like this either.

 

When we did have kids that were WAY behind, they would often do a catch up schedule with them and sometimes I did feel that it was too many shots at once but I had no say in it with those kids.  With the 2 we fostered to adopt and had since they were babies we did theirs on a delayed schedule as there were some health concerns so we split up the shots, spread them out more, etc.

[Orthodox6]

I just read the FAQ with interest.  A few blunt [i.e. uncharitable] observations:

 

#1:  "When will you be getting your children back?"  no answer. Of course she does not know; however, she could state that she intends to comply fully with court-ordered changes.

 

#2:  "Do you attend a church or homeschool support group?"  no answer

 

#5:  "We are naturopaths but we would seek professional medical care if it was [sic] needed."  No professional medical care was sought for possible food poisoning, for a serious burn, or for a home birth [multiple times?].  [A trained midwife constitutes professional medical care.]

 

#6.  [selective comments]:  What holds the tarps in place during high winds and/or heavy rains?  The wood stove is not used in spring/summer.  Are they, then, raw food adherents? [possibly ok for adults; not typically recommended for children]  The "optional" fence might, in theory, prevent wild animals from knocking over and/or climbing into the trash and recycle receptacles.  Speaking of the latter, does the county do rural pick up of recyclable materials, or must they haul it somewhere?

 

#7.  :smilielol5: From whose privately-held supplies do you haul in the potable water?  Are they aware of this?  Where are photographs of the water cachement system currently being built? 

 

#8.  She works full time as a pet groomer?  The business opened on 5-20-2015 (according to website).  How have household expenses been paid for up until this time?  Wait.  According to #11, you barter for things.  What on earth does this "home"stead have available for barter that anyone would want?  [other than child labor]

 

#9:  Posted document says it clearly.

 

#11:  "He never said that he was going to shoot anyone."  The child sent for the gun was supposed to do the job?

 

#14:  waffle, waffle.

 

#16:  "And the children have been involved in these decisions."  Unanimous approval?  What were/are the repercussions for a child who votes "no"?  What is used as "the age of discretion"

 

#19:  "He even changes diapers."  :nopity:

 

#20:  "We live a simpler life than my clients do."  For once, I agree.  The dogs have it better than this family.

 

#21:  "We actually blog to teach."  . . . with stellar success at teaching the absolutely wrong way to do just about everything related to homesteading!

 

 

[FaithManor]

Sooo..all the people that died of lockjaw weren't actually alive to start with? That's her conclusion???

Wow, her logic, it staggers the imagination!

[gardenmom5]

It's important to note however that DV can and does happen to women who are extremely functional, capable and healthy.

 

That said, just like pedophiles look for kids who are most vulnerable to their machinations, DV abusers often use a somewhat similar process.

 

When she's almost always pregnant or just recently postpartum yet she's the worker, there's just a big fat red flag there.

 

they may start out functional - but they generally don't stay that way. there is a point you start to question your perception of things because an abuser does such a number of up is down, black is white, etc. after a while, you think you're nuts. 

 

while constantly being pg doesn't help Nicole to think independently, I'm not sure she'd be rational and functional right now even if she wasn't pg.  he's a user - he certainly doesn't contribute anything other than keeping her knocked up and reinforcing the paranoid beliefs.

[gardenmom5]

Well I don't want this thread to turn into a vaccine debate, but I will add that they call themselves "naturopaths" (question 5 in the link) and don't even know what that means. That's an actual degree. NDs go through 4 years of school. She graduated from high school and he has an AA.

 

 

 

 

#5:  "We are naturopaths but we would seek professional medical care if it was [sic] needed."  No professional medical care was sought for possible food poisoning, for a serious burn, or for a home birth [multiple times?].  [A trained midwife constitutes professional medical care.]

 

 

 

 

we have a naturopathic university here.  I take my son to a naturopath.  it's an actual degree, and they are licensed by the state after taking exams.  (insurance pays for it.)   they vax.   (among other things she objects to.)

 

Nicole is deluded.  again.

[Orthodox6]

we have a naturopathic university here.  I take my son to a naturopath.  it's an actual degree, and they are licensed by the state after taking exams.  (insurance pays for it.)   they vax.   (among other things she objects to.)

 

Nicole is deluded.  again.

 

Yes, it is legitimate study.  I did not mention the naturopath claim because it was addressed earlier by others. 

[gardenmom5]

Yes, it is legitimate study.  I did not mention the naturopath claim because it was addressed earlier by others. 

 

 

I was only referring to Nicole claiming to be a "naturopath".

 

I don't think that word means what she thinks it means . . . .

[Halcyon]

In case it wasn't posted, this is Nicole's personal FB page: https://www.facebook.com/HomesteadMomma?fref=ts

And an interview with Pace Ellsworth (i haven't listened to it yet): http://www.everything-voluntary.com/2015/05/episode-056-naugler-support-effort-0h30m.html

[Renai]

Must say, she does a bang-up job grooming those dogs.

[Corraleno]

It seems like they were living a fairly functional, if financially challenged, life up until the end of 2012. They were living in a nice old farmhouse, the kids were doing what I'd call relaxed/eclectic schooling (they were doing math and English and lots of interest-led history (using SOTW as a spine no less!) and science, nature study, etc. Weekly trips to the library, lots of field trips, lots of arts and crafts and building projects. The election results seem to have convinced her that economic collapse was imminent, and her political rhetoric increased. At the same time, they seem to have been pissing people off in their church, which Nicole blamed on homeschooling, saying that the bishop was against homeschooling and was afraid that Nicole would persuade others to try it. Oh, and they didn't like her asking "hard questions" about theology, so for those reasons they were banned from the church. [No mention of Joe's threats to the bishop and others, of course.] Up until then, the older kids were in Boy Scouts and active in church groups activities, the church donated beds and furniture, and they were using the food pantry. I'm guessing that the old farm house is the rental that people talk about when they say the Nauglers were evicted for nonpayment of rent after the church stopped paying the rent, because as soon as Nicole says the church kicked them out, a commenter says "I'm sorry you have to move." [According to some people, they retaliated by trashing the house, leaving feces everywhere.]

 

So then they moved to a 4 BR double-wide that had electricity as well as water & septic, and it had a big school room, and again the kids seemed to be doing well. However, in early spring 2013, Joe got arrested for the car being unregistered and uninsured (which BTW they both believe is their constitutional right, because the constitution doesn't give the govt the right to regulate that), and cops found there was a warrant for his arrest for nonpayment of child support (supposedly owed $14K at that point) and failure to appear. He spent 6 weeks in jail, and Nicole was kind of freaking out, not only about how difficult it is to be a single mother to (then) 9 kids, but also because Joe is her best friend, love of her life, can't live without him, etc. — plus she was worried that he'd get more jail time and they'd have to cough up thousands of dollars they didn't have. Instead the judge ordered him to pay $75/mo, gave him credit for time served, and released him. But at that point Nicole seemed to sort of lose it. She said she felt she was "going into a tailspin" and didn't know how to make it stop, but hoped things would get better soon. 

Even reading all of the blog and FB posts from the summer of 2013, I don't see any explanation for why they left the double-wide, so that may have been another eviction and she just didn't want to talk about it, or it could have been their choice, I don't know. But while they were in the double-wide, at least they had light and heat and functioning sanitation, and the kids were all clean and still doing school work. 

But for whatever reason, they moved to the current land, and had the prefab structure put on it, which was at least a solid structure with a roof, floor, and windows. They added a wood stove, although it was uninsulated, and they seem to have made it through the winter of 2013 in that. By that time, though, neither of them were really working much. He had a job working night shift at an auto parts place, but didn't like the hours so he quit. She didn't like the boss at the grooming salon (who wouldn't let her little kids come with her), so she quit that, too. Their garden had failed, they were begging for donations and using the local food pantry. So they decided to save the $300/mo or so they were paying for the prefab and send it back and build their own. The strangest part to me is that they never seem to have gotten anyone out there to test & repair the well and septic system that already exists on the property. So they were "borrowing" water from other people and using their version of a compost toilet (aka a bucket that would get dumped somewhere). She says that their first visit from CPS came within a couple of weeks of them moving into the prefab, based on an anonymous tip. [Note: I suspect that when the Nauglers insist that CPS has seen and approved their homestead before they are talking about this prefab place, not the sticks-&-tarp arrangement.]

 

Then in the spring/summer of 2014 they started trying to build their own "cabin," and that's when everything just totally fell apart. At the end of the summer, Nicole was posting that she was really disappointed with how far they'd gotten, that she thought the cabin would have been built already, was worried about winter, the garden had failed again, and things were falling apart. But at the same time, her political rhetoric was becoming more and more strident, she was posting a lot of things about constitutional rights and even posted a specific script to use if someone is ever stopped by the police (which was pretty much the script she used when they were stopped for a seat belt violation). As the living conditions got worse, with neither of them working much, no garden producing food, kids reduced to catching & eating turtles and eating moldy pancakes, she became more and more defensive about their way of life and that no one had the right to tell them how to live. It seems like she either doesn't "see" the filth and squalor because it happened gradually, or she sees it but can't deal with it, so she reframes it in her head as a heroic fight against the evil government for constitutional rights.

And because their ideology is so extreme, and so paranoid, everyone who actually wants to help the family, and the kids, is seen as an enemy to be resisted at all costs.  :sad:

 

 

 

[Heather in VA]

In case it wasn't posted, this is Nicole's personal FB page: https://www.facebook.com/HomesteadMomma?fref=ts

And an interview with Pace Ellsworth (i haven't listened to it yet): http://www.everything-voluntary.com/2015/05/episode-056-naugler-support-effort-0h30m.html

 

I hadn't seen her personal page before. It's one 'fight the big bad Man' quote after another isn't it.

 

 

Edited to add... there is a post where Nicole says that Issac and Uriah are saying 'I don't consent. I don't answer questions' to the people they are with. I really feel for those trying to reach those kids.

[Mimm]

It seems like they were living a fairly functional, if financially challenged, life up until the end of 2012.

.........

And because their ideology is so extreme, and so paranoid, everyone who actually wants to help the family, and the kids, is seen as an enemy to be resisted at all costs.  :sad:

 

Thank you for this post! It really clarifies the time line and it's kind of heartbreaking seeing the downward spiral the family is in. With allegations about drug use when they were first together, I'm wondering if Joe didn't quit for a while as their family grew, then start back up.

[idnib]

So they decided to save the $300/mo or so they were paying for the prefab and send it back and build their own. 

 

Thanks for the great timeline. I did read comments in several places saying that while the Nauglers say they decided to get rid of the pre-fab, it was actually repossessed.

[Guest]

It is just further proof that this isn't a homesteading family as much as it is a homeless family with strange ideas about government so they won't accept help. Also, dad is a lazy POS.

[Lawana]

It seems like they were living a fairly functional, if financially challenged, life up until the end of 2012. <snip>

 

And because their ideology is so extreme, and so paranoid, everyone who actually wants to help the family, and the kids, is seen as an enemy to be resisted at all costs. :sad:

Thank you for taking the time to provide that summary.

[Corraleno]

Thank you for this post! It really clarifies the time line and it's kind of heartbreaking seeing the downward spiral the family is in. With allegations about drug use when they were first together, I'm wondering if Joe didn't quit for a while as their family grew, then start back up.

 

Yeah, I'm guessing that Joe's alleged weed habit has something to do with his inability to hold a job. And considering his anger issues and the way he's prone to violent reactions when things don't go his way, I wonder if Nicole is OK with him smoking if it reduces the risk of her or the kids getting hit. :(

 

 

Thanks for the great timeline. I did read comments in several places saying that while the Nauglers say they decided to get rid of the pre-fab, it was actually repossessed.

 

I think it's highly likely it was repossessed. They were begging for food at that point — and yet neither of them were working even close to full time. Nicole was working 2-3 days/wk, and often Joe wasn't working at all. He briefly worked a fast food job (confirmed by Nicole) but someone who knows them said he was fired from that for sexual harassment. The same person confirmed what the groomer said about Joe being fired from the hotel job due to theft.

 

Oh, here's a fun bit of irony — Nicole caught one of the kids stealing a pair of sunglasses from the Dollar Store, so she made him return them, then  she lectured him about the importance of respecting other people's property and made him copy out scriptures saying that stealing is wrong! 

[Ottakee]

I hadn't seen her personal page before. It's one 'fight the big bad Man' quote after another isn't it.

 

 

Edited to add... there is a post where Nicole says that Issac and Uriah are saying 'I don't consent. I don't answer questions' to the people they are with. I really feel for those trying to reach those kids.

It does make being the foster parent, social worker, counselor, etc. very hard.  We have had children here who were "coached" on what to say or NOT say.  Very scripted as all 4 kids in 4 different homes had the SAME answers word for word.  The biggest answer we got was "I don't remember".....even about totally safe things like what they did at school, what games they played at recess, etc.  We certainly heard that when asking about various large scars, etc.

 

I just pray that the children have some very very good and very experienced foster parents.  As someone mentioned above, it seems like until about 3 years ago they were a struggling but making it family.

[mamakelly]

Maybe those who foster can answer this. I would hope so too but I wonder if it's legal. They have lost custody but not their parental rights so I think they might have to have permission from the Naugler's to vaccinate.

I have several friends that are foster parents. Unless the bio parents could prove that the kids were up to date on vaccinations, the kids were put on a rapid catch up schedule. But the bio parents still retained some sort of rights, like one family couldn't get the little girls hair cut, because bio mom wouldn't allow it.

[Heather in VA]

It does make being the foster parent, social worker, counselor, etc. very hard.  We have had children here who were "coached" on what to say or NOT say.  Very scripted as all 4 kids in 4 different homes had the SAME answers word for word.  The biggest answer we got was "I don't remember".....even about totally safe things like what they did at school, what games they played at recess, etc.  We certainly heard that when asking about various large scars, etc.

 

I just pray that the children have some very very good and very experienced foster parents.  As someone mentioned above, it seems like until about 3 years ago they were a struggling but making it family.

 

Maybe that is another reason they are in different counties. They could have chosen experience of the foster family over closer proximity. There is probably a big concern on the part of CPS to cover their butts too. They have to be completely on edge dealing with such a paranoid family. The Naugler's are probably just chomping at the bit to hear something they want to sue over. 

[Corraleno]

It is just further proof that this isn't a homesteading family as much as it is a homeless family with strange ideas about government so they won't accept help. Also, dad is a lazy POS.

 

Yep, that sums it up. Their motive for "homesteading" is to "stick it to the Man," and to be able to thumb their noses (while pointing guns) at all the idiots who didn't heed the warnings and who won't have anything to eat when the economy collapses. The problem is that they don't have anything to eat now. Or safe water. Or a warm safe place to sleep. It's like they've ended up living in post-apocalyptic conditions, but the apocalypse never happened.

 

They just have no. freaking. clue. what they're doing and really did not do ANY research ahead of time, other than pinning a few inspirational photos on pinterest. I think Nicole thought it's easy to grow all your own food, you just need a few acres and some seeds and the food practically grows itself. If you have a pond, that means unlimited water for drinking/cooking/bathing and the bonus of free fish for dinner. Barter for a couple of goats, who will eat nothing but twigs and brush, and you get free milk and cheese. Grab some bits of wood lying around the property and throw up a cabin in a few weeks. Easy peasy.

 

All of their attempts at growing food have failed. Most plants died or were decimated by bugs. They mixed up some seeds and ended up with a bunch of cucumbers instead of squash. (One of the dinners Nicole posted was plain spaghetti with cut up cucumbers and carrots on top — yum.) Their ideas about "free ranging" farm animals were incredibly naive — the first two batches of chickens were eaten by the dogs; coyotes got the first two baby goats; the goats were trashing their "kitchen" (such as it is) and eating their food (instead of the free grass and twigs they were supposed to be eating).  They tied up one of the dogs to keep her away from the livestock, and she broke the line and got lost in the woods, in a snow storm, for 2 weeks before she managed to find her way home. Poor management and too much poop has ruined the pond, which is now a slimy green mess. What used to be grass is now poop slurry. They just keep getting in further and further over their heads, but they can't admit that they screwed up and need help — other than "just give us lots of money to spend as we please and then piss off."

[Desert Strawberry]

Just when you think you've heard it all.... you read another anti-vaxx post. ;)

 

Please don't assume that everyone who chooses not to vaccinate is this stupid.

[alisoncooks]

Wow, how did I miss this thread?!

I've been lamenting the lack of updates about this family (since the closing of the other thread) and all along, this was here...just under my nose.

 

*not that anything new I've read is remotely satisfying...just sadder and crazier*

But at least I know where to look for updates now! 
 

[Heather in VA]

Wow, how did I miss this thread?!

I've been lamenting the lack of updates about this family (since the closing of the other thread) and all along, this was here...just under my nose.

 

*not that anything new I've read is remotely satisfying...just sadder and crazier*

But at least I know where to look for updates now! 

 

 

I think one of the saddest part of looking for updates is that I don't even know what to hope for. Do I hope for reconciliation knowing that even meeting some basic requirements from CPS isn't likely going to be a sign of a good future or do I hope the kids find great permanent placement with families even though it means they won't be with all their siblings or their parents. 

[unsinkable]

It does make being the foster parent, social worker, counselor, etc. very hard. We have had children here who were "coached" on what to say or NOT say. Very scripted as all 4 kids in 4 different homes had the SAME answers word for word. The biggest answer we got was "I don't remember".....even about totally safe things like what they did at school, what games they played at recess, etc. We certainly heard that when asking about various large scars, etc.

 

I just pray that the children have some very very good and very experienced foster parents. As someone mentioned above, it seems like until about 3 years ago they were a struggling but making it family.

Wow, this brings back some ugly memories of my childhood. My dad used drive us around and coach us in what to say, and we wouldn't stop until we got the script right. :-(

[Halcyon]

I am sorry, unsinkable. That sounds awful.

[Luckymama]

I am just so sad for those kids :(

[Mommy22alyns]

Corraleno, thanks so much for the summaries and analyses.

 

I am so, so sad for those kids.   :crying:

[Forget-Me-Not]

I wonder if the fact that the well/septic weren't assessed had to do with the fact that they (by some accounts) weren't on the property legally. My guess is permits would have to be pulled to work on one or both, and then they'd run into legal problems.

[unsinkable]

I am sorry, unsinkable. That sounds awful.

Thanks. What is awful how much in common dysfunctional families have. Awkward sentence but I hope you KWIM.

 

I remember I stopped reading Angela's Ashes when I got to the scene when the drunk dad woke the kids in the middle of the night...and was either singing or making them sing. I threw the book away from me. And I remember thinking, "what IS IT with drunks needing company? That they'd even wake their poor kids?"

I've been trying to remember if she was around the cloth diapering boards.

 

This may be the most insignificant thing to carp about, but for someone who defines herself as (among other things) a cloth-diapering mama, isn't the cute (but dirty) baby on the property wearing disposables?

 

And how would you manage cloth diapers on the homestead?  I'm sure that a diaper service is not an option, both financially and ideologically.  They rely on a laundromat in town to wash their clothes. 

[SproutMamaK]

I think one of the saddest part of looking for updates is that I don't even know what to hope for. Do I hope for reconciliation knowing that even meeting some basic requirements from CPS isn't likely going to be a sign of a good future or do I hope the kids find great permanent placement with families even though it means they won't be with all their siblings or their parents. 

 

Personally, I'm hoping that this is a wake-up call for the Mom to ditch the Dad, get her life together, and make a go of it on her own. I can't imagine how difficult that would be with 11 children... but it's the only outcome that doesn't break my heart for those kids. I suppose there's the hope that the Dad could get his act together and they could become a solid family unit, but that seems outside the realm of possibility to me.

[Corraleno]

 

Edited to add... there is a post where Nicole says that Issac and Uriah are saying 'I don't consent. I don't answer questions' to the people they are with. I really feel for those trying to reach those kids.

 

I'm sure Nicole and Joe are really proud of that and think it's a "win" for their side, but I suspect all it will do is drag out the investigation even longer. It just compounds the parents' lack of cooperation, increases suspicion that they're hiding something, and prolongs the assessment process. If they think that teaching the kids to respond this way will somehow force CPS to return them sooner, they may be shocked to discover it has the opposite effect — it may even end up restricting parental access, if the parents are encouraging this. Worst of all, it could result in splitting the kids up even more, if they feel that kids are refusing to cooperate out of solidarity. They sure have been thoroughly indoctrinated.  :sad:

[ChocolateReignRemix]

Ah, I suspected all along they were at least on the fringe of the sovereign citizen movement.  After reading an old post of Nicole's on FB where she mentions them getting pulled over for not having the van registered and how they don't need to due to having a "right to travel" it is confirmed.

 

She sounds like she is as deep in the crazy as he is.

[Orthodox6]

I am sorry, unsinkable. That sounds awful.

 

Double ditto.  :grouphug:

 

[Heather in VA]

Wow, this brings back some ugly memories of my childhood. My dad used drive us around and coach us in what to say, and we wouldn't stop until we got the script right. :-(

 

((((HUGS))) ... I was going to 'like' this post but it didn't seem right. We need a ((HUGS)) button

[Seasider]

I wonder if the fact that the well/septic weren't assessed had to do with the fact that they (by some accounts) weren't on the property legally. My guess is permits would have to be pulled to work on one or both, and then they'd run into legal problems.

Once again, why haven't we heard from the actual land owners?

[idnib]

Once again, why haven't we heard from the actual land owners?

 

Because they're smarter than that?  :D

[Renai]

I think one of the saddest part of looking for updates is that I don't even know what to hope for. Do I hope for reconciliation knowing that even meeting some basic requirements from CPS isn't likely going to be a sign of a good future or do I hope the kids find great permanent placement with families even though it means they won't be with all their siblings or their parents. 

 

The problem with this scenario is it would prove them right that CPS was after their well-behaved kids to adopt them out for money.

[Seasider]

Because they're smarter than that? :D

Ha! Okay, let me rephrase. I'd love to hear ABOUT the actual land owners. Somebody's keeping it zipped up tight.