Boasting that they don't read books

[Epicurean]

I met a homeschooling parent last night who blew my mind. I had no idea people like this exist.

 

This was at an informal social function of homeschooling families, and we were gathered in a group chatting about the books we've read recently. This guy, we'll call him Joe, wasn't saying much, so I asked him what he's been reading to include him in the conversation. Here's what he said, to the best of my recollection.

 

Oh, I don't read books. I think the last book I read was over ten years ago. I'd have to think for a bit what that one was. I'm more of a producer, not a consumer.

 

After an awkward silence (which he seemed oblivious to), someone asked him what he meant by that. He was only too happy to launch into an explanation.

 

Well, when you think about it, there are only two kinds of people in this world: the producers and the consumers. The producers are the people who make their voices heard, they're the people who change history by putting their own individual thoughts out there. And then there are the consumers, who read the thoughts of producers. Consumers are receptive, they passively receive knowledge, whereas producers are more active. I think too many people in our culture have become consumers, and they think just because they're consuming books instead of television, that they're different when they really aren't. [Laughs.]

 

He didn't say this, but I definitely got the feeling that he might agree with the wicked stepmother in Ever After who quipped, "Some people read because they cannot think for themselves."

 

For full disclosure, in the four hours that I spent in Joe's presence, I developed a burning hatred of him. Every time he opened his mouth, I wanted to punch him in the face. He made numerous remarks that made my husband give me the, "Be nice and don't say anything," look. If you want to get an idea of what he's like, imagine Mr. Collins from Pride and Prejudice but ramp up the pompous, socially-inept ridiculousness about three more notches.

 

Here's what I want to know. Is this a quirk that is unique to this one guy, or is this idea part of a greater anti-intellectual movement? I have trouble believing he came up with it all on his own. Have you run into this before? Is there someone, perhaps in the evangelical circuit (he is very religious), who promotes the idea that people should be proud that they don't read?

 

On a related note, if you have any ideas about how to secretly dis-invite this guy from our social gatherings, I'd love to hear about it. :lol: I have a feeling this guy is going to be harder to shake off than a tick on a hound dog.

[Chris in VA]

Oh please, please do not make this about evangelicals.

 

I don't know about an anti-intellectual movement, but it sounds to me like he is misinformed about how to engage with a book. Maybe he was never taught how to read correctly--which is most certainly NOT a passive exercise.

 

In general (which is a dangerous way to start a sentence), I find people who produce without hearing from others produce nothing but bs.

[73349]

And what has Joe written lately, then?

 

I've never met such a person, but I'm sure he's not alone. I've read that the average adult American reads only about a book a year, and I know I am consuming several people's shares. ;)

[Epicurean]

Oh please, please do not make this about evangelicals.

 

I don't know about an anti-intellectual movement, but it sounds to me like he is misinformed about how to engage with a book. Maybe he was never taught how to read correctly--which is most certainly NOT a passive exercise.

 

In general (which is a dangerous way to start a sentence), I find people who produce without hearing from others produce nothing but bs.

 

Sorry! Joe always seems to make non sequitur connections between the random topic being discussed and evangelical Christianity, so it seemed like it might be a possibility.

 

I haven't read what he's written, but judging by the things he said, I think you're write about "non-consumers" just producing bs. Of course, it's hard for me to be objective about the guy.

[Catwoman]

Joe sounds like an idiot.

 

I would not invite him to any future social gatherings and I wouldn't feel guilty about it.

[GinaPagnato]

Oh please, please do not make this about evangelicals.

 

I don't know about an anti-intellectual movement, but it sounds to me like he is misinformed about how to engage with a book. Maybe he was never taught how to read correctly--which is most certainly NOT a passive exercise.

 

In general (which is a dangerous way to start a sentence), I find people who produce without hearing from others produce nothing but bs.

 

Please, please, a million times, please!

 

Loud mouth, non-curious, pompous people come in every suit.

 

[Tanaqui]

I can tell you how to get rid of him, but I can't tell you how to do it politely.

 

If you want manners, learn the following phrases and repeat them ad nauseum. Practice in front of a mirror so you can get used to saying them with a straight face and a steady intonation: "That's an interesting perspective" "That's one point of view" "Fascinating. So, $OTHERPERSON, what have you been up to?" "That certainly is innovative" "What a novel idea".

 

Of course, the snotty version is to laugh wildly and go "Wow, you really had me going, I thought you were serious for a minute!" and the vindictive version is to keep pulling at the conversational thread until even he realizes he sounds like a pompous fool.

[hornblower]

The producer/consumer thing is one I've heard in lots of places in context of self-improvement & creativity. If you google  those words you'll see a bunch of new age/new management/empowerment blah blah stuff about that.

The not reading must be his own take on it. I've never heard that before.

in writing circles certainly anyone who says they want to write but they don't have time to read is pretty much laughed out of the club.

"“If you don't have time to read, you don't have the time (or the tools) to write. Simple as that.â€
― Stephen King

[Epicurean]

And what has Joe written lately, then?

 

I've never met such a person, but I'm sure he's not alone. I've read that the average adult American reads only about a book a year, and I know I am consuming several people's shares. ;)

 

Oh man, I wasn't brave enough to ask. Can you imagine?

 

I think what struck me was how proud he was of not reading. It seems like most people who don't read would sort of lie about it (talking about the last book they read as if it was yesterday) or try to turn the conversation to something else. And I mean, homeschoolers aren't your typical Americans, so I guess I just didn't expect to hear something like that from a parent who educates their children at home. I guess I'm more naive than I thought.

[catz]

The best "producers" are the biggest "consumers".  That explanation is completely back-asswards.  Sounds like a narcisstic jerk.  Avoid avoid avoid!   :thumbdown:  

[Tanaqui]

It seems like most people who don't read would sort of lie about it (talking about the last book they read as if it was yesterday) or try to turn the conversation to something else.

 

I know a few people who don't read much and will openly admit it - but they don't turn it into some sort of status marker, they either mention it as a character flaw (like not getting enough exercise) or just a difference in preferences (like being a person who likes to go rowing instead of running).

 

[Guest]

Sorry! Joe always seems to make non sequitur connections between the random topic being discussed and evangelical Christianity, so it seemed like it might be a possibility.

 

I haven't read what he's written, but judging by the things he said, I think you're write about "non-consumers" just producing bs. Of course, it's hard for me to be objective about the guy.

It's not a religious thing. It's more of what I'd expect from an overdose of Ayn Rand, to be honest. I've only ever encountered attitudes similar to that in libertarian-bordering-on-anarchist circles, and even then it is exceedingly arrogant and, thankfully, exceedingly rare.

[GinaPagnato]

And I have to add...who ARE these people?!

 

Seriously, in my area the homeschoolers are intelligent, curious, driven, intellectually-vigorous people. Most of the ones I know are evangelical, which in NO way at all negates their substantive intellect. Their kids are doing incredibly well, being admitted to great colleges, a pleasure to talk with, etc.

 

I seriously cannot imagine running into a guy like this. Seriously.

[*Inna*]

Wow, he sounds like an obnoxious ass.

[Epicurean]

Joe sounds like an idiot.

 

I would not invite him to any future social gatherings and I wouldn't feel guilty about it.

 

Unfortunately, I'm not in charge of organizing the events. :( I wish I was the one who sent out the emails. I could maybe try to talk to the lady who hosts the gatherings, but I feel like it might not be well received. He's new to the group, and I'd probably just come off as petty and unkind for not wanting him invited back. I'll have to think about that one.

[hornblower]

Start every day as a producer

Are you a consumer or producer

Raising producer kids <--- this one actually isn't that bad

& a Christian view of Consumers v Producers

[SKL]

I know a "producer."  She doesn't read books.  Maybe a decade+ ago she listened to one or two nonfiction audiobooks that friends recommended for self-improvement.  She says that even when she was a kid, she would not read books; she'd ask her sisters to tell her the stories.

 

Instead she spends nearly all of her waking hours making things happen in the business/nonprofit world or being social.

 

I, on the other hand, am more of a consumer.  In general, I would rather read about someone else's amazing adventures than strike new ground myself.

 

I don't think either kind of person is better than the other.  Though I do think the "producer" types deserve to be thanked for a lot of real progress.

 

Now as for this boaster, he pretty much sounds like a jerk.  Why was he there at the gathering anyway?  Why wasn't he out producing instead of annoying people?

 

Did anyone ask him what he's produced recently?

[Butter]

Seems to me the best producers are also some of the biggest consumers.

 

I can't imagine being proud of being a non-reader.  Of course I can't imagine being a non-reader period.  The only people I know who don't read (or listen to) books are not boastful about it.  In fact, they tend to be more embarrassed.

[catz]

I know a "producer."  She doesn't read books.  Maybe a decade+ ago she listened to one or two nonfiction audiobooks that friends recommended for self-improvement.  She says that even when she was a kid, she would not read books; she'd ask her sisters to tell her the stories.

 

Instead she spends nearly all of her waking hours making things happen in the business/nonprofit world or being social.

 

I, on the other hand, am more of a consumer.  In general, I would rather read about someone else's amazing adventures than strike new ground myself.

 

I don't think either kind of person is better than the other.  Though I do think the "producer" types deserve to be thanked for a lot of real progress.

 

Now as for this boaster, he pretty much sounds like a jerk.  Why was he there at the gathering anyway?  Why wasn't he out producing instead of annoying people?

 

Did anyone ask him what he's produced recently?

 

I don't get the mindset that says you are one or the other?  Some of the best written books have subtle historic or cultural references woven throughout.  Huge "consumption" had to have inspired such works.  Scientists and engineers consume for years before being productive and keep skills up to date.  I used to be a software engineer and I just spent the winter "consuming" a curriculum for a new software tool to write a curriculum on the same tool, packaged to be fun and consumable for tweens and teens.  I also wrote the same curriculum to require some creativity and production.  Seems like a very closed minded way thinking about the world. 

 

I will say, there are some blogs online that just seem like people spewing their world view while not at all trying to understand outside their bubble or empathize with others having experiences they've never had.  That is not "production" to me.  That is just spewing. 

[Word Nerd]

I highly doubt he came up with that idea on his own...which would make him a consumer.

[marbel]

Unfortunately, I'm not in charge of organizing the events. :( I wish I was the one who sent out the emails. I could maybe try to talk to the lady who hosts the gatherings, but I feel like it might not be well received. He's new to the group, and I'd probably just come off as petty and unkind for not wanting him invited back. I'll have to think about that one.

 

Doesn't sound like someone I would want to spend much time with. But if he is new to the group, maybe he will tone it down after a while.  I would probably just avoid him at future social functions.  

 

I have known some very smart, productive people who did not read.  They neither boast about it nor do they seem embarrassed by it.  They do a lot of good stuff - run companies, participate in charity events, coach kids' sports leagues, etc.  Some of them do a heck of a lot more than I do in a day or a month or a year.  They are involved in community to an extent many are not.  I don't see being a non-reader as something to be embarrassed about on its own.

 

I guess I've also known people who brag about how well-read they are.  Really, there are unpleasant people of all kinds!  :001_smile:

 

[LMD]

It's not a religious thing. It's more of what I'd expect from an overdose of Ayn Rand, to be honest. I've only ever encountered attitudes similar to that in libertarian-bordering-on-anarchist circles, and even then it is exceedingly arrogant and, thankfully, exceedingly rare.

Rand-ianism was my first thought too, it sounds like a Galt speech!

I actually really enjoyed reading some Rand, but there's no getting away from the extremity of her views and this is the kind of black & white polarising she espouses...

[regentrude]

He sounds like a moron, but then, for decades it has been socially acceptable to boast of ignorance in math, something I have encountered even on these boards.

Maybe we're on the way of society finally dumbing down to such a degree that it's soon also cool to be illiterate.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

Whether he's a producer or a consumer, what he's not is properly socialized. His reading preferences and philosophies can be as esoteric as he likes, authentic or not, who cares, if he can just survive a single pleasant evening chatting with nice people without making them despise his every word.

 

I had a nearly identical experience recently, in a brand new homeschool group that was lovely except for an unsocialized newcomer, only my person was...I don't know...psychotic. She was so viciously hostile that she couldn't even endure an hour of chitchat with polite people (whom she had just met) without turning it into a fight over politics. Nobody else wanted to fight over politics. It was insane and everyone was speechless except for me. I had a little something to say, on my way out the door. 

 

I'm even in the same situation of wondering whether to annoy the hostess by telling her to choose between us, or just fading out and letting the perfectly nice people think that "I" am anti-social.

 

 

[Ausmumof3]

I met a homeschooling parent last night who blew my mind. I had no idea people like this exist.

 

This was at an informal social function of homeschooling families, and we were gathered in a group chatting about the books we've read recently. This guy, we'll call him Joe, wasn't saying much, so I asked him what he's been reading to include him in the conversation. Here's what he said, to the best of my recollection.

 

Oh, I don't read books. I think the last book I read was over ten years ago. I'd have to think for a bit what that one was. I'm more of a producer, not a consumer.

 

After an awkward silence (which he seemed oblivious to), someone asked him what he meant by that. He was only too happy to launch into an explanation.

 

Well, when you think about it, there are only two kinds of people in this world: the producers and the consumers. The producers are the people who make their voices heard, they're the people who change history by putting their own individual thoughts out there. And then there are the consumers, who read the thoughts of producers. Consumers are receptive, they passively receive knowledge, whereas producers are more active. I think too many people in our culture have become consumers, and they think just because they're consuming books instead of television, that they're different when they really aren't. [Laughs.]

 

He didn't say this, but I definitely got the feeling that he might agree with the wicked stepmother in Ever After who quipped, "Some people read because they cannot think for themselves."

 

For full disclosure, in the four hours that I spent in Joe's presence, I developed a burning hatred of him. Every time he opened his mouth, I wanted to punch him in the face. He made numerous remarks that made my husband give me the, "Be nice and don't say anything," look. If you want to get an idea of what he's like, imagine Mr. Collins from Pride and Prejudice but ramp up the pompous, socially-inept ridiculousness about three more notches.

 

Here's what I want to know. Is this a quirk that is unique to this one guy, or is this idea part of a greater anti-intellectual movement? I have trouble believing he came up with it all on his own. Have you run into this before? Is there someone, perhaps in the evangelical circuit (he is very religious), who promotes the idea that people should be proud that they don't read?

 

On a related note, if you have any ideas about how to secretly dis-invite this guy from our social gatherings, I'd love to hear about it. :lol: I have a feeling this guy is going to be harder to shake off than a tick on a hound dog.

Make all your social outings for the next three months book clubs and bookstore visits

 

(;

[Seasider]

Whether he's a producer or a consumer, what he's not is properly socialized. His reading preferences and philosophies can be as esoteric as he likes, authentic or not, who cares, if he can just survive a single pleasant evening chatting with nice people without making them despise his every word.

 

I had a nearly identical experience recently, in a brand new homeschool group that was lovely except for an unsocialized newcomer, only my person was...I don't know...psychotic. She was so viciously hostile that she couldn't even endure an hour of chitchat with polite people (whom she had just met) without turning it into a fight over politics. Nobody else wanted to fight over politics. It was insane and everyone was speechless except for me. I had a little something to say, on my way out the door.

 

I'm even in the same situation of wondering whether to annoy the hostess by telling her to choose between us, or just fading out and letting the perfectly nice people think that "I" am anti-social.

More and more I am choosing the fading out option. My emotional energy is shrinking in core volume and becoming more valuable, so I'm starting to avoid overspending it.

 

It's kind of sad, yet liberating.

[Seasider]

Make all your social outings for the next three months book clubs and bookstore visits

 

(;

LOL! Touche!

[SKL]

On the other hand, maybe it wasn't perfectly polite to put a non-reader in an awkward position.  He was being quiet, someone asked him what he was reading, there was an awkward silence when he said he wasn't reading anything.  That wasn't all his fault.  Maybe he felt defensive.

 

It would be like asking a homeschooler what company she works for, and then leaving an awkward silence when she said she hadn't worked in a company for 10 years.

 

It would have been polite for someone to follow up the guy's initial answer with, e.g., "tell us, what do you prefer to do in your spare time?"

[JFSinIL]

Innocently ask him "Oh my, where did you read THAT?"

[Angie in VA]

 

 

I had a nearly identical experience recently, in a brand new homeschool group that was lovely except for an unsocialized newcomer, only my person was...I don't know...psychotic. She was so viciously hostile that she couldn't even endure an hour of chitchat with polite people (whom she had just met) without turning it into a fight over politics. Nobody else wanted to fight over politics. It was insane and everyone was speechless except for me. I had a little something to say, on my way out the door. 

 

 

 

Oh, please tell us what you said. I must know. 

[Lang Syne Boardie]

Oh, please tell us what you said. I must know. 

 

LOL! I wish my words had been pithy, fridge-worthy zingers but mostly I just argued a little so she didn't get the upper hand and start to set the tone of the group, and then I said that there obviously wasn't any reason to continue today so I must be going. Sweetly said goodbye to each normal person, gathered the kids, and left.

 

I had the moral high ground on the argument, which makes biting sarcasm difficult IRL. Sorry to disappoint. :p

[SKL]

I love reading, and yet there have been times when I wasn't reading anything.  It isn't a bad idea to consider that "what are you reading right now" is not a question everyone can answer.

[catz]

On the other hand, maybe it wasn't perfectly polite to put a non-reader in an awkward position.  He was being quiet, someone asked him what he was reading, there was an awkward silence when he said he wasn't reading anything.  That wasn't all his fault.  Maybe he felt defensive.

 

Hmm ... to me this was just an attempt at inclusion.  Someone with mature social skills could have turned it "I'm not much of fiction reader, but I follow a bunch of news blogs!". or "I just don't have a lot of free time these days!  I'm really busy with X and Y."  That would be an opening to turn the conversation.   The problem to me is not that he's not a reader.  Reading is not pleasurable for everyone.  Fine.  It seem like he openly and proudly criticized everyone standing there.

 

[SKL]

Oh and then there are people who cannot read.

 

I guess I feel a little uncomfortable with the idea that it would be better for the guy to respond with "I'm embarrassed to say I don't read much" vs. "I don't read because I prefer to do other things."

 

(Not saying this guy's obnoxious explanation was OK, just that it's no better to put someone in the position of being embarrassed over not reading.)

[Onceuponatime]

Rand-ianism was my first thought too, it sounds like a Galt speech!

I actually really enjoyed reading some Rand, but there's no getting away from the extremity of her views and this is the kind of black & white polarising she espouses...

Admittedly, I've only read one Rand book, and that was Anthem, recently. In that book the main character is intellectually liberated by coming apon a forbidden library and reading his way through it. That doesn't seem to fit what I'm hearing here.

[catz]

And like someone hinted at above, he appears to be 100% present blindly "consuming" the philosophy that the world is made up of producers and consumers.  That is just BS in my opinion.  The world is many more shades of grey.  We all produce.  We all consume. 

[Lang Syne Boardie]

Oh and then there are people who cannot read.

 

I guess I feel a little uncomfortable with the idea that it would be better for the guy to respond with "I'm embarrassed to say I don't read much" vs. "I don't read because I prefer to do other things."

 

(Not saying this guy's obnoxious explanation was OK, just that it's no better to put someone in the position of being embarrassed.)

 

There is no way that asking someone what they've enjoyed reading lately is a rude question that could be interpreted as putting someone in the position of being embarrassed.

 

Because as WoolySocks points out, one could say, "I'm swamped with my research; I'm on the brink of curing toenail fungus -- too busy with work for novels right now. Hope to get back to reading more soon." Or 5000 other excuses, from spending all extra hours perfecting a golf swing to having trouble getting the bifocals prescription right.

 

Or he could simply reply pleasantly, with a smile, "Oh, while I'm enjoying this conversation very much I've never been much of a reader."

 

 

[SKL]

Of course we all produce and consume.  But some people are heavier on the production side.

 

I think as far as social graces go, the key is to meet the other person wherever he is.  When he responded "I haven't read a book in 10 years," someone in the group should have met him where he was and found something he could talk about.

 

Not saying I'm great at that.  Actually I rather suck at it, but I try.  ;)

[SKL]

There is no way that asking someone what they've enjoyed reading lately is a rude question that could be interpreted as putting someone in the position of being embarrassed.

 

Because as WoolySocks points out, one could say, "I'm swamped with my research; I'm on the brink of curing toenail fungus -- too busy with work for novels right now. Hope to get back to reading more soon." Or 5000 other excuses, from spending all extra hours perfecting a golf swing to having trouble getting the bifocals prescription right.

 

Or he could simply reply pleasantly, with a smile, "Oh, while I'm enjoying this conversation very much I've never been much of a reader."

 

I thought his initial answer was fine.  But then there was this awkward silence that he was left to fill.

 

Nobody needs an "excuse" to not read for pleasure.  Anyone thinking that way is looking down upon their fellow man IMO.

 

[kubiac]

[Lang Syne Boardie]

I thought his initial answer was fine.  But then there was this awkward silence that he was left to fill.

 

Nobody needs an "excuse" to not read for pleasure.  Anyone thinking that way is looking down upon their fellow man IMO.

 

 

(Not sure why I'm bothering with this) you'll note my favorite suggestion of something he could say, "While I've been enjoying this conversation very much I've never been much of a reader," said pleasantly with no apology or embarrassment.

 

If there was an awkward silence he didn't have to fill it by putting everybody down and behaving like a horse's patoot.

[lllll]

..

[LMD]

Admittedly, I've only read one Rand book, and that was Anthem, recently. In that book the main character is intellectually liberated by coming apon a forbidden library and reading his way through it. That doesn't seem to fit what I'm hearing here.

You could be right, I haven't read that one. I've read fountainhead & atlas and they were pretty big on producers, thinkers, inventors vs leeches! :D

[SproutMamaK]

The philosophy itself it blindly arrogant. It assumes that the "producer" in question is better than everyone else at "producing" and could not learn anything from researching what others have learned. I don't HAVE to research things, I just DO them! Uh... if you're just a producer and never a consumer, you're probably a pretty crappy one. Using and learning from things others have produced is how the world advances, otherwise we're just constantly reinventing the wheel. If he got to the meeting in a car he didn't build from scratch himself and went home to a house that he didn't build from logs he cut down himself from his own property, he is indeed a consumer. We're all producers in some areas, consumers in others. He's just focusing myopically on the areas where he is NOT a consumer, and tossing labels on everyone else to justify his arrogance.

[Reefgazer]

He sounds like one of those people who run around with a bumper sticker on his car that says "My kid beat up your honor kid."  It's part of the anti-intellectualism that has swept this nation in the past 2 decades.

[Word Nerd]

And like someone hinted at above, he appears to be 100% present blindly "consuming" the philosophy that the world is made up of producers and consumers. That is just BS in my opinion. The world is many more shades of grey. We all produce. We all consume.

It seems so obvious that I have a hard time seeing how anyone could possibly believe the absurd notion people can only be one or the other.

[Frances]

Seems to me the best producers are also some of the biggest consumers.

 

I can't imagine being proud of being a non-reader. Of course I can't imagine being a non-reader period. The only people I know who don't read (or listen to) books are not boastful about it. In fact, they tend to be more embarrassed.

My husband does not read books and he is neither proud of it or embarrassed by it. He's very intelligent and has two STEM doctorates (one professional and one academic) and is also an artist. He's extremely creative and is constantly designing and building or making things and has more energy than anyone I know. He is also the volunteer leader of a recreational sports group and teaches a college class for fun during the summer in addition to his regular job. He often researches topics online related to his various projects and interests, but I think the last time he read an entire book was many years ago when we were still reading aloud to our son.

 

On the other hand, I love to read and consume three newspapers each day and several books each week, in addition to online research on topics of interest. But I certainly don't produce things like my husband does. I don't think one is better than the other, we're just different.

 

However, the guy in the OP sounds like a jerk and someone to avoid.

[Guest]

My husband does not read books and he is neither proud of it or embarrassed by it. He's very intelligent and has two STEM doctorates (one professional and one academic) and is also an artist. He's extremely creative and is constantly designing and building or making things and has more energy than anyone I know. He is also the volunteer leader of a recreational sports group and teaches a college class for fun during the summer in addition to his regular job. He often researches topics online related to his various projects and interests, but I think the last time he read an entire book was many years ago when we were still reading aloud to our son.

 

On the other hand, I love to read and consume three newspapers each day and several books each week, in addition to online research on topics of interest. But I certainly don't produce things like my husband does. I don't think one is better than the other, we're just different.

 

However, the guy in the OP sounds like a jerk and someone to avoid.

You sound like me and me husband. I love reading, be it papers, books, blogs, or forums. My husband does, too, but he is just too busy to sit down and read anything non-work related, except for bedtime stories to the kids. It isn't necessaily a reflection of intellect :)

[Amira]

Am I the only one who wishes the OP had obliged us with more examples of what he had to say?

[TechWife]

& a Christian view of Consumers v Producers

 

That is a terribly unbiblical viewpoint.  By conservative Christian standards, they have grossly misinterpreted the verses they are citing. Prooftexting, anyone?