Dog people - why do nice dogs snap at toddlers?

[klmama]

I was looking at our Humane Society page to see what dogs were available.  There were a number of dogs who were described as very well-behaved in general but that were given up because they snapped at the toddlers in the house.  Do toddlers do something that dogs just don't like? Are the dogs trying to assert their dominance over the toddlers?  Most were male dogs - is this a male dog thing?  Thanks for helping me understand. 

[hornblower]

It has nothing to do with dominance. Dominance is not a useful paradigm when looking at domestic dog behavior & all serious dog training & behavior professionals have long abandoned the concept. (here is a pdf from the American Veterinary Society of Animal Behaviorists on Dominance...)

Some dogs have extremely high tolerance & very high bite inhibition. But that is quite rare. Dogs snap at children because children do silly things like get in their faces, hug them, steal their food, + run around & shriek high pitched (which is pretty much what prey animals do). So generally it's usually a case of either children violating dog rules, children activating prey drive, inadequate training (of both children & dogs) and inadequate supervision.

For dog bite prevention & how to learn to read dogs (& how to teach children to read dogs) see Doggone Safe

For examples of commonly rude things that kids do (& people take pictures & post in the internet as "SO CUTE" and behaviorists and trainers are all OMG WHAT ARE YOU DOING?) see Eilleen and Dogs "Before You Share That Cute Dog & Baby Picture"

[regentrude]

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deleted- pp said it better

[Butter]

Our dog (a girl) will kind of snap at my 6 year old's fingers as he walks by her sometimes.  She doesn't actually bite and doesn't even touch him with her teeth.  It seems like kind of a game to her.  His hand level isn't much above her head so we wonder if she thinks he wants her to play with him.  She's very gentle with everyone, including him.  That's just the only weird thing she does, but it could definitely be construed as snapping at him in a mean way if you weren't used to it.

[hornblower]

some people also forget that dogs don't have opposable thumbs. Their mouths are how they grab everything. Some mouthy dogs are just being playful but people freak out.

[Pawz4me]

It has nothing to do with dominance. Dominance is not a useful paradigm when looking at domestic dog behavior & all serious dog training & behavior professionals have long abandoned the concept. (here is a pdf from the American Veterinary Society of Animal Behaviorists on Dominance...)

 

Ditto.  A thousand times.

 

Continuing (and pretty much restating) what Hornblower said -- My theory about why so many otherwise stable dogs have issues with toddlers is because they're so very different from older kids and adults.  They move more quickly and more erratically, which probably makes dogs nervous.  The dog can't very accurately predict or anticipate what the toddler's going to do next.  Add to that the often high pitched noises toddlers make -- putting myself in the dog's place I can easily imagine how disconcerting toddlers must be to them.

[plansrme]

Herding breeds also could be trying to herd their little sheep/toddlers by nipping at their hind legs. I mean, their ankles. Lord knows toddlers could use a little herding sometimes.

 

Eta: My dog is half-border collie, and I could see her doing this. She likes her sheep to be quiet and still and to stay in one place, preferably for the entire herd to be in the same room. A toddler sheep would not make her happy.

[fairfarmhand]

Herding breeds also could be trying to herd their little sheep/toddlers by nipping at their hind legs. I mean, their ankles. Lord knows toddlers could use a little herding sometimes.

 

Eta: My dog is half-border collie, and I could see her doing this. She likes her sheep to be quiet and still and to stay in one place, preferably for the entire herd to be in the same room. A toddler sheep would not make her happy.

 

We had a blue heeler that would grab my dd by the seat of her pants.

 

We were not amused.

[plansrme]

We had a blue heeler that would grab my dd by the seat of her pants.

 

We were not amused.

So what did you do? Were you able to train her out of it, or did you have to keep them separate until your daughter was older? I grew up with Newfoundlands, and then had golden retrievers as an adult/ This is my first herding dog, or half-herding dog, and the personality and instinct are fascinating. I am just really curious as to how they respond to discipline (mine is grown and rarely in need of discipline).

[hornblower]

It's not about discipline. It's about training incompatible behaviors. Learning for animals should be life long - just like for us. No reason you can't keep on teaching tricks forever.

[klmama]

Thanks, everyone.  Hornblower, thanks for the links.  I'm going to share that info with my dc. 

[hornblower]

Thanks, everyone.  Hornblower, thanks for the links.  I'm going to share that info with my dc. 

 

most welcome!

 

And check out these posters on body language too 

 

"Every year over 4.5 million people are bitten by dogs. One of the most common causes of biting and aggression in dogs is fear. This color poster developed by Dr. Sophia Yin and illustrated by Lili Chin, shows the common as well as more subtle signs of fear and anxiety in dogs. Download the pdf version of the "Body Language of Fear and Anxiety in Dogs". You are welcome to make copies to distribute for free."

[marbel]

Ditto.  A thousand times.

 

Continuing (and pretty much restating) what Hornblower said -- My theory about why so many otherwise stable dogs have issues with toddlers is because they're so very different from older kids and adults.  They move more quickly and more erratically, which probably makes dogs nervous.  The dog can't very accurately predict or anticipate what the toddler's going to do next.  Add to that the often high pitched noises toddlers make -- putting myself in the dog's place I can easily imagine how disconcerting toddlers must be to them.

 

I am sure no dog expert but this has been my experience with my dog and little kids.   They put their hands above his head as if they're holding a treat, and he wants the treat.  Or, they look like they're about to hit him.  Or they scream in his face.

 

We used to babysit a toddler who our dog loved.  But he was very quiet and didn't reach out to the dog at all - just pretty much ignored him.  The dog would follow him around and when the boy fell down (as toddlers will do), the dog would lick his head. 

 

 

[SparklyUnicorn]

No experience with dogs, but even cats often don't like little kids.  Little kids are unpredictable.  They make sudden movements.  They bounce all around.  They don't know how to be gentle with an animal.  Their approach is never with consideration of whoever they are approaching.

 

 

[ktgrok]

Hornblower, I want to buy you a drink. Thank you for sharing such great information. 

[The Girls' Mom]

Sometimes toddlers make ME want to snap at them, so understanding that dogs are often uncomfortable around them isn't a stretch for me..lol. But in all seriousness, there are way too many people that expect a dog to not act like a dog around small screechy, flailing balls of energy. I wish there were more people like you that took the time to learn about it, and more people that were proactive about preventing a dog from snapping.

 

Our JRT does not like small children. We take care to kennel her when there are small kids here.

[SebastianCat]

Ditto. A thousand times.

 

Continuing (and pretty much restating) what Hornblower said -- My theory about why so many otherwise stable dogs have issues with toddlers is because they're so very different from older kids and adults. They move more quickly and more erratically, which probably makes dogs nervous. The dog can't very accurately predict or anticipate what the toddler's going to do next. Add to that the often high pitched noises toddlers make -- putting myself in the dog's place I can easily imagine how disconcerting toddlers must be to them.

My miniature schnauzer does not like small children and I see many of the above reasons applying to her. She is totally fine with older kids.

 

This thread has great advice!

[Guest]

Sometimes people just want to come up with a really good excuse to not have to deal with a dog anymore when they get to be too much. Not saying that is always the case, but I have seen it more often than not with dogs my rescue friends take in.

[hornblower]

Hornblower, I want to buy you a drink. Thank you for sharing such great information. 

 

:blush:

 

awww, thank you. I'll raise a virtual glass to all of you.

[foxbridgeacademy]

When DD was 4-5 we got our Chihuahua.  He did not like her, would growl a bit and run away if she got too close.  She never was left alone with him and she never did those things Hornblower was mentioning upthread.  Because of DD's good behavior Chichi stopped growling and would let DD pet him but he didn't start playing with her (sockball is a favorite) until she was about 7.  He acts the same way with niece and nephew except they have done some of the bad behavior (niece tried to pick him up by his head, he bit/nipped her).  He's finally started to mellow toward her now that she's calmer and over 8 yrs. old.

 

 

*** she was never left alone with dog, niece is just sneaky and quick (she was 5-6 yrs old).  

[AimeeM]

I think some of it may be a dominance issues... an "alpha" issue, a "pack" issue; if you consider it, it isn't abnormal for an adult dog to nip at/snap at young pups.

Also, toddlers can be mean. Not intentionally mean, but just "I'm curious and have no understanding of how to appropriately interact with this animal" kind of way. 

 

[snickerplum]

Our rat terrier loves our kids - he lets them pull on his collar,play with his paws run around and wrestle. If they try and take something he's chewing on he gives a low warning growl, but doesn't nip unless provoked. If they try he comes to comfort them. That being said, he does not like other children, even ones the same age as ours. Even if they don't try and play with them he growls. He seems to be quite protective, especially of me and my children. I guess he thinks Dh can handle himself. :-)

[sparrow]

It has nothing to do with dominance. Dominance is not a useful paradigm when looking at domestic dog behavior & all serious dog training & behavior professionals have long abandoned the concept. (here is a pdf from the American Veterinary Society of Animal Behaviorists on Dominance...)

 

Some dogs have extremely high tolerance & very high bite inhibition. But that is quite rare. Dogs snap at children because children do silly things like get in their faces, hug them, steal their food, + run around & shriek high pitched (which is pretty much what prey animals do). So generally it's usually a case of either children violating dog rules, children activating prey drive, inadequate training (of both children & dogs) and inadequate supervision.

 

For dog bite prevention & how to learn to read dogs (& how to teach children to read dogs) see Doggone Safe

 

For examples of commonly rude things that kids do (& people take pictures & post in the internet as "SO CUTE" and behaviorists and trainers are all OMG WHAT ARE YOU DOING?) see Eilleen and Dogs "Before You Share That Cute Dog & Baby Picture"

 

Great post!

 

It is SO rare to find the bolded, but we lucked into one.  We had a very hard time finding a rescue that was willing to work with us when dd was just over 1 year and ds newly 3 years.  I understood the reasoning, but it was frustrating. We knew we were good owners, but how can you prove that to rescues that have to take in dogs from crappy owners every day? Finally, a rescue gave us a chance with Molly, who will be 13 this fall!  We never allowed the typical bad toddler behaviors mentioned above, but I know crying alone can stress some dogs. Molly is mellow with a capital "M".  Her foster mom was thrilled she was going to a family with young kids. She said she had never had a more mellow puppy in her long life fostering dogs. Molly's personality has remained the same. I don't know what we'll do when she's gone :crying: .

 

[pehp]

I could be totally off-base but I think it's b/c toddlers are/can be annoying.  My toddlers were highly annoying to my dog when they were little (ear-pulling, pinching) a couple of times before they were corrected and learned not to do it.  My dog is some sort of angel so he never did anything, just licked them.  My son used to sit on him (as a chair) and our big huge sweet dog would just sort of shrug. Every so often the dog would just leave the room.  He's the sweetest thing!!!  

 

A bad dog is a bad dog, but some dogs are really good but can't tolerate the in-your-face-ness of toddlers.  

 

I think my dog is a rarity!!

 

And I think best practice is to keep dogs and toddlers apart, unless you are *sure* the dog is completely okay and/or the toddler can respect the dog.  I worked on way too many dog bite cases as a defense attorney and they ALL involved toddlers.  

[Farrar]

In addition to all the weird movements, toddlers stare at all kinds of things - including dogs - really intently. I know people are saying it's not dominance, but I feel like dogs see it as a sort of engagement or challenge. When my boys were five, they got really freaked out by a dog belonging to a family member - the dog took all their staring and circular movements as an invitation to play. It was a bad combo.

 

The thing that made me craziest with dog owners were the people who seemed to take it as an insult when you pulled your toddler away. It's like, look, this is not personal. Short of a tiny dog in a handbag, I'm going to pull my kid gently away because my kids have no dog skills. It's not you. Don't get in a huff.

[Zinnia]

We had a jack russell when my older kids were toddlers.  He was mad that he was replaced with a baby, and he never got over it.  We rehomed him when my oldest was 5 (and the others were 3 and 1).  He had just become miserable over those 5 years, and we weren't able to train him out of his snappy behaviors.  It wasn't fair to him (and he was an anxious miserable  mess when we tried) to have him separated away from the family for the majority of the day.  So, a new home was the right thing to do for him. 

[LucyStoner]

In addition to all the weird movements, toddlers stare at all kinds of things - including dogs - really intently. I know people are saying it's not dominance, but I feel like dogs see it as a sort of engagement or challenge. When my boys were five, they got really freaked out by a dog belonging to a family member - the dog took all their staring and circular movements as an invitation to play. It was a bad combo.

 

The thing that made me craziest with dog owners were the people who seemed to take it as an insult when you pulled your toddler away. It's like, look, this is not personal. Short of a tiny dog in a handbag, I'm going to pull my kid gently away because my kids have no dog skills. It's not you. Don't get in a huff.

My kids are both scared of dogs and keep their distance and then some. Unfortunately because some people break the leash laws, they have each had a couple of times they have had a dog snap or run after them. While I get that the dogs are probably harmless, it doesn't help my kids alleviate their fears either.

[Guest]

This just reaffirms my belief that dogs aren't good pets for families. Seriously. I don't think I could watch both dog and children enough to prevent the myriad behaviors of both creatures listed in the links. I am tired of unleashed dogs charging my stroller, 'friendly' dogs growling at my children from across the freaking room, and generally seeing a whole lot of tense and aggressive behavior in any number of breeds. Maybe they can just sense that I dislike them, but I haven't met very many dogs I'd say are actually decent pets for anyone with multiple young children.

 

Give me rats and fish any day!

 

/bad dog experiences

[LisaKinVA]

I'm only going to refer to the three dogs I've had as an adult:

 

Brothr's Rorder Collie/Husky Mix (would snap at toddlers -- not frequently -- but usually, it was because the said toddlers were playing rough, and the dog couldn't get away.  Never bit..

My Cocker Spaniel -- never snapped at toddlers -- when the kids got to be too much, she'd run off to my room and crawl under the bed (my room was off-limits to visiting nieces and nephews).  

My German Shepherd -- hasn't snapped at toddlers, but has snapped at tween-aged boys -- usually because they are jumping around and shrieking or chasing my smaller children (in play), While we have trained a LOT with "soft bite", and she has never bitten anyone, the shrieking/jumping/running around really kicks her prey drive into high gear.  And, frankly, that can be scary for anyone!  So -- we just don't allow her out by herself when the kids and their friends are running around.  Some of it is also protection-instinct (keeping kids away from the pool, etc.)  She was bred for instincts (bred under the German system -- both parents were very well bred/trained).  Thankfully, she IS easy to train, we just haven't gotten all the way through protection (still finishing up advanced obedience/shutzhund I).  Her protection instincts are pretty intense.  BUT, at least she doesn't bark at cars, people or other animals walking past our house...unless the tweenagers up the street are taunting her through the fence, or the Yappy dog is walking by...she's a great dog.

[Guest maiyingxi]

His hand level isn't much above her head so we wonder if she thinks he wants her to play with him.

[Ausmumof3]

Same reason adults do! They are annoying and don't respect personal space. Also a dog might have had a bad past experience with a toddler and snap pre-emptively at all toddlers.

 

Often dogs that grow up with little kids learn to deal with it, it's the ones that aren't used to it. I do think it's important for dogs to have a safe space and kids to learn to respect it. Our beagle never snapped, the staffy did once under extreme provocation when I didn't realise dd was jumping on his back but never did again. It does seem to be a common problem with borders and kelpies.

[Lanny]

I applaud you wanting to adopt a dog. If you have very young children, I would suggest a medium size dog, preferably from the Herding/Working Dog group.  I had Old English Sheepdogs for many years and they are one of the breeds that are usually great with children.   Although we now have 2 Male dogs, over the years I have always had Female dogs.  Never in my life had I been interested in, or known a Rottweiler.  4 or 5 months ago, my stepson and his wife were on their motorcycle and a Rottweiler puppy either jumped out of the bed of a pickup truck or was thrown out of the bed. They stopped and picked him up and brought him home.  I knew that cute little puppy was going to grow into an enormous dog.  He is a very friendly and loving dog, yet I believe if the need arouse, he would protect us.

 

This is why I am writing about him.   A few days ago, we had visitors arrive at our gate, just as I arrived home on my bicycle. 2 adult women and a girl about 12 years old. Before I realized what she was doing, the girl put her hand through our gate, to pet the Rottweiler.  Fortunately, he did not react in anything but friendliness.  Later, I explained to the girl that she should not pet dogs that she does not know and  not through a fence like that.  On our side of the gate is one thing, on the other side of the fence, our dogs protect our property and our family. That is their job.

 

We have a neighbor across the street who loves Rottweilers. She told my wife that when. she tries to pet him, the other Male dog reacts very aggressively.

 

I am not suggesting that you get a Rottweiler, but I am suggesting that you do not get a TINY dog.  We have 4 toy dogs and they are extremely nervous high strung animals and do not like being touched.  However, they are alert and bark so they are good for security.

 

GL with the dog that you adopt!

[Carrie12345]

 

 

I am not suggesting that you get a Rottweiler, but I am suggesting that you do not get a TINY dog.  We have 4 toy dogs and they are extremely nervous high strung animals and do not like being touched.  However, they are alert and bark so they are good for security.

 

 

 

We got two Rottweiler mixes when my dds were toddlers (rott/lab and rott/shepherd.) I love tiny dogs, but these guys were the perfect choice for us; much more laid back, much less fragile, came as puppies so they would know little of life *without toddlers, and quickly grew to be big dogs with few reasons to be intimidated by little people.

 

We also kept the kids and dogs separated when not actively supervised. Never experienced snapping, and only had one growl when a child tried to snatch a toy.

 

All that said, my dog (we lost one last year) STILL cannot stand the screeching of the 4 and 7yos.  He will whine when it starts and bark if it continues.  OTOH, he will bark if I yell at the kids.  Obnoxious behavior simply isn't something most dogs are going to stand for!

[mom2scouts]

Hornblower, thank you so much for that information.  I adore animals, but I've never owned a dog and I'm aware that I don't know how to read them the way I read other animals.  I spent some time last night reading all the links you gave.

[Farrar]

My kids are both scared of dogs and keep their distance and then some. Unfortunately because some people break the leash laws, they have each had a couple of times they have had a dog snap or run after them. While I get that the dogs are probably harmless, it doesn't help my kids alleviate their fears either.

 

Mine too, to various extents. One of my boys became so phobic after an off leash dog threatened him that we had to go into therapy. And I'm sure the owners of that dog didn't realize anything was wrong. Because to them, the dog was just being playful and didn't even touch him in the end.

[marbel]

Mine too, to various extents. One of my boys became so phobic after an off leash dog threatened him that we had to go into therapy. And I'm sure the owners of that dog didn't realize anything was wrong. Because to them, the dog was just being playful and didn't even touch him in the end.

 

Seeing off-leash dogs around makes me so angry.  There is a woman who walks in our neighborhood and has the leash with her, draped over her shoulders, while the dog is free.  He has rushed my dog before.  It's my dog, not my kids, who is afraid of dogs and he went nuts.  Fortunately he is of a size I can pick him up.  Of course he came off looking like the mean aggressive dog vs. the nice friendly pup who just wanted to meet him. 

 

Sorry for the OT rant.   There is a reason for leash laws and it's not just to protect people from mean or aggressive animals.

 

[Aura]

Our dog (a girl) will kind of snap at my 6 year old's fingers as he walks by her sometimes.  She doesn't actually bite and doesn't even touch him with her teeth.  It seems like kind of a game to her.  His hand level isn't much above her head so we wonder if she thinks he wants her to play with him.  She's very gentle with everyone, including him.  That's just the only weird thing she does, but it could definitely be construed as snapping at him in a mean way if you weren't used to it.

 

 

some people also forget that dogs don't have opposable thumbs. Their mouths are how they grab everything. Some mouthy dogs are just being playful but people freak out.

 

Just thought I'd add my experience. For a long time, whenever I went outside, even though we have a fenced yard, she'd always grab at my hand with her mouth. Not biting at all. It took a few times to realize this, but I swear, she was trying to hold my hand just like she always sees me do with the kids. (My littles love holding my hand as we walk, even in the yard.)

 

We have another dog that does not like horseplay inside. He's part border collie. He knows loud, rambunctious play inside is not allowed. We've trained the dogs that they are not allowed to dog-play inside. I fuss at the kids when they do get too rowdy inside. Rambunctious play of any kind is not allowed inside. If the kids break this rule, he'll follow them around barking until they stop.

[Pawz4me]

One thing to remember is that different breeds/groups of dogs have different play styles and instincts, and that can greatly affect how they interact with people in general and especially with younger children.

 

Pointing and retrieving breeds are bred to be touch insensitive so that they won't hesitate to run through briars or jump into icy streams or ponds.  That can mean that w/o training they think nothing of slamming into people and running over toddlers.  They just don't "get" touch or body contact as well as some other breeds.  It can be a nuisance when one of them bumps against an adult, but a real problem when they send a toddler flying when they swing their rear ends around too fast, or when the dog runs headfirst right into a toddler.

 

Herding breeds tend to be much more body conscious/touch sensitive than the pointers and retrievers, but they tend to be much less tolerant of rowdy play.  I'm guessing too much rowdiness or activity makes their instincts scream "Herd! Herd! Get them under control!"

 

Those are generalizations, of course, and won't apply to every single dog.  But it's something to keep in mind when considering a particular breed.  Think about more than looks.  Think about what that dog (or at least his ancestors) was bred to do, and the implications of living with those traits and the extra training living with them will require.

[Alice]

Sort of off-topic question. For those of you who are good with dogs and dog training, what is the best thing to do with a dog when you do have small kids over to visit? 

 

Background: We have a 16 month old dog, who is a beagle and lab mix (the lab is a guess but she looks exactly like a lab) and maybe some other breeds (several trainers/vets/groomers have mentioned maybe Shar Pei in there somewhere). She is very good with our kids. One of the reasons we picked her was that she was a foster dog that friends of ours had and so we had a chance to see her behavior with our kids for months before we adopted her. She is a bit of a cautious dog, but that has gotten better and better. She seems to have a very good bite inhibition, she is mouthy (which we have worked on a lot and it's getting better) but she has a gentle mouth. She is tolerant of our kids and loves them, including our five year old. 

 

We fairly frequently have young kids over. When it's just one child other than ours, I keep the dog near me or have the kids play in a room with the door closed. About once a month we have a big lunch at our house with many kids. Some are very scared of all dogs. And the dog obviously gets excited by all the activity. She is crate-trained and likes the crate but only really goes there when we are going out. When we crate her when people are here she howls or barks and gets very upset. 

 

I think we should probably work on crating her when we are home for short periods but in the meantime I've been just keeping her on a leash right by me even in the house when we have the big group over. It seems to work ok but I'm wondering if there is anything that I am inadvertently teaching her that is bad. This is our first dog ever and we are enjoying her but realizing there is a lot we have to learn on top of what we have already learned. 

[hornblower]

It is normal for a dog to complain about being crated when exciting things are happening.

Your idea of keeping her leashed near you is actually excellent. It's called umbilical cord training & I use it in those circumstances. Reward her for all calm bhvr. Anytime she sits and is quiet, cooked chicken (or her other favourite treat) should be popping in her mouth.

FWIW, I'd probably just keep doing the leash thing because it's the simplest thing. Eventually the dog learns to just stick to you & be calm at your feet or you can practice sending them to a mat to relax (see below)

You can also gradually condition her to accept crating in those circumstances by building the bhvr bit by bit.  So for ex. you could crate with a stuffed kong when you know someone is coming for just a very short time.  I rarely use crates in the house but I do work on calm crate behavior when at dog competition/class. The thing is, it means that while the dog is in the crate, you're working the whole time, watching them & reinforcing all moments of calm so it's hard to do when you have company if you actually want to be a host. To be an effective trainer you have to gradually build the bhvr and that means setting up the environment too. So you might want one guest only, fairly quiet & only 1 min quiet in crate. Then 2 guests etc & slightly longer.


You can also start by training 'calm'. In my house I call it 'chill' separately & then try to combine it with the crate.

Have a look at this article on how to stop unwanted barking

ETA - help your dog succeed by making sure she's had an extra long outing/offleash romp before asking her to be calm for company.

Also, depending on the climate where you live & the season, I know some people whose dogs adore cars & will happily sleep in a crate in a car, parked on a quiet street. Obviously this only is appropriate in cool, safe weather, parked out of the sun & only if the dog likes the car. You can set up a baby monitor to listen in on the dog.

Also:

 

[Alice]

Thanks so much hornblower! Great advice. I really appreciate it. Off to read and look at some of the information you linked. 

[Bluegoat]

I used to have to dogs, a lab/husky cross and a boxer/pit bull cross, and the lab cross was never willing to put up with what she considered inappropriate behavior from children or puppies.  I don't think she was scared of them, but she really gave the impression that she thought they were just beyond the pale.