Let's imagine one's fine child get a HUGE scholarship...

[Ginevra]

...to the uni or college that is at the bottom of their "desirability" list. Let's say it was dc's safety and *nothing* else. They didn't like one thing about the school.

 

What would you do?

 

This is still hypothetical, but clearly, it could happen IRL. Would you build a case for attending the "cheap" school if you could afford his or her favorite(s)? Would you only sell the "cheap" school if it was no way on the desirable school(s)?

[Caroline]

We would (and are) paying for the better school. My parents did the same.

[Granny_Weatherwax]

Not one thing??? I would question why he applied to a school he didn't like anything about.  Even safeties should have something the student can fall back on and enjoy other than being free.

 

 

ETA:  Our family is in a situation similar to what you described.  DS was just awarded a full-ride to his safety.  However, there are things about his safety that he really likes and  he has been establishing relationships with possible mentors.  If he hadn't liked anything about this school, I don't think I would have let him apply.

[shawthorne44]

For me, I think college is what you make of it.  By definition professors are academically inclined, and from personal experience they gladly give time to those sincerely in search of knowledge.   So, I think the academic angle can be met at 90% of the colleges out there.  There are some that think that social scene is important in selecting a college.  Something seems either flippant or elitist about that.  I guess I never saw much benefit to binge drinking or social hierarchies.  Probably my own biases coming out.  The important part of college social life, to me, is your close friends and you have no way of predicting that by the college.  So, yeah, I'd be pro the huge scholarship school.  

[creekland]

I've always wanted my guys going places they like that seem to be good fits for them.  If they didn't like the school, they didn't apply.  There were always other options (even if that meant taking a gap year).  College is more than the academic education for us.

 

In your (hypothetical) situation, my guys would be honored to have gotten the scholarship, but we'd still be willingly paying for them to go somewhere they liked that was affordable without huge figures of loans.

[Pawz4me]

Define "afford."  Can the family afford the more desirable school w/o much or any financial strain?  No loans?  Still able to easily pay for college for younger children?

 

I'd also consider what she will  major in, and if the school the undergraduate degree is from makes a difference to potential employers in that field, or in the chances of being accepted into grad schools if going that route is a possibility.

 

And if grad school is a possibility, would going to the less desirable school enable you to afford to help her with that?

 

But short answer is:  Assuming you can easily afford the more desirable school then I'd do that.  I'd be hesitant to talk a kid into a school she really doesn't like if money isn't an overriding issue.

[Nan in Mass]

If you couldn't afford anything else, then of course you try there. : )

 

If you can afford something that is a better fit (really a better fit, not just a completely inexperienced judgement), then I would try to remember that the cheap school won't be a cheap school if the student doesn't graduate, and the likelyhood of this happening increases if the student hates the school. I'd check the cheap school's graduation rates, at the very least. Then I'd use that to comfort myself about the extra money spent at the uncheap school.

 

We could have done something much, much cheaper. We opted to pay a LOT for a school that was more interesting, a better fit, and more likely to be finished.

 

Nan

[Trilliums]

I would go over the pros and cons of each option, including the huge benefits that go with a cost free education.  

 

If all the options were truly affordable and we felt each one was a good fit for my kids, I would then pretty much let them decide. 

 

if they picked the full ride option, we would let them use money in their college funds for other purposes.  With our current plans, if DS gets into a private, meets need school, his college fund does not have enough in it but we will cover the rest using current income (will involve belt tightening for sure, but based of EFC calculators, we *think* it will be affordable).

 

Son has a full ride scholarship at a regional school that never would have been on his radar but he happened to win this award.  Honestly the school just does not offer enough in his desired major for him to go there, so I am not encouraging him to go there.  He also is likely to be able to attend our state flagship at no cost (already has 8.5k and other applications in for dept awards).  This is definitely not his top choice and there are distinct aspects of the school he dislikes.  He would, however, still attend this school and may do so eventually.  He is still waiting for decisions on all his other schools (no ED applications here!).

[Ann.without.an.e]

If my child didn't like the school and *if* we had the resources to help them get somewhere else (resources not including huge piles of debt for parents or child) then I would definitely let my child go to the preferred school. If the only choice was deep debt or the full ride school....well, suck it up buttercup ;)

 

 

[Hoggirl]

Well, my ds only applied to schools that appealed to him, at least on some level, so it is somewhat difficult for me to relate to this scenario. However, I will tell you what we did, in general with regard to cost. We had a designated amount of money that we were willing to pay for ds's education. Together we crafted the list of schools to which he applied. He was free to choose any school where he was accepted. He had two options that would have been totally free (lower-ranked SEC schools), but he was also accepted to some top-ranked schools where we were going to be full-pay. The designated amount of money for education would cover any of his choices, BUT if he chose one of the top-ranked schools, he knew he would be on his own for graduate school. He also knew that if he didn't spend all the money in the designated fund that he would receive that money for graduate school or as a down payment on a house, for a car, or for summer travel abroad or any number of reasonable things. Picking full-pay meant no summer trips on our dime.

 

Ds chose the top-ranked, full-pay school. I have to confess it was his "dream school." He IS living the dream. He loves it and is thriving. I wish the pile of money had been larger so we *could* help with grad school. We'll see how it plays out in a few years. He was accepted to a summer study-abroad seminar sponsored by his school. It's highly subsidized by his university, so the course itself is only $600. We did agree to pay for that (he earns some credit) as well as his books, but he is going to have to cover his cost of air-fare, eating, and incidentals. He has an on-campus job and is squirreling that money away for that very purpose.

 

Sorry, I am getting OT. We did not try to persuade him one way or the other. We talked with him about the decision when HE wanted to talk about it. It was HIS decision.

[Guest]

Define "afford." Can the family afford the more desirable school w/o much or any financial strain? No loans? Still able to easily pay for college for younger children?

 

I'd also consider what she will major in, and if the school the undergraduate degree is from makes a difference to potential employers in that field, or in the chances of being accepted into grad schools if going that route is a possibility.

 

And if grad school is a possibility, would going to the less desirable school enable you to afford to help her with that?

 

But short answer is: Assuming you can easily afford the more desirable school then I'd do that. I'd be hesitant to talk a kid into a school she really doesn't like if money isn't an overriding issue.

The school I'm speaking of, the safety, isn't a dump; it's not a down-graded school that would make you go, "You applied *THERE*?" Many wonderfully-educated people have graduated from the safety, including people in my family. So, big-picture-wise, it would not be a disadvantageous school.

 

She didn't mesh there. The school has an urban vibe and a lot of hipster types; not her style. While we were visiting, a student sporting a cannabis tee asked us if we wanted any info on drug policy, LOL! I know even that single odd moment went far in influencing her that she won't fit in at that school. (Please don't think I'm naive; I am well aware that there is pot-smoking at JMU or U Del, too.)

 

As far as "afford" - well, I won't really know what that means until I see the packages. But my general feeling is that "afford" means most of the COA can be paid with invested funds, work study and parental OOP. She is in a private high school, so I would be comfortable with OOP in the ballpark of the tuition we already pay. No giant loans.

[Susan in TN]

That's what happened to ds. He has 3/4 tuition/room/board paid at his last choice school. It's not that there wasnt anything good about the school, and we have found many positives since, but it definitely wasn't where he expected to go. While he was offered generous scholarships at his top 2 choices, we still couldn't afford to send him. One of the primary positives is that he can graduate with NO debt whatsoever, and use the funds he has saved for graduate school which is a higher priority for him.

 

(I do want to add that ds is very happy at his university. He has made good friends and has been given many great opportunities that would not have been likely at his top choices. We have also found the coordinator of his major to be an outstanding professor and mentor.)

[bettyandbob]

We've told our dc we would help them finish a BC. If a dc was awarded no scholarships that might mean we will struggle, but we will make it happen. If a dc had a choice to a school that offered the degrees he was interested in and had an environment that would be safe* and he was also accepted to a school where we would struggle to pay, then we would push the scholarship unless the dc articulated a serious problem.

 

If the schools are considered similar in terms of academic reputation for field of study and post graduate opportunity/job placement there had better be a darn good reason for spending more money. That reason varies student to student. 

 

 

 

 

safe* means different things to different students. Some environments could cause depression and anxiety for some students and be perfectly fine for others. Some environments might have too many distractions for a student who only recently developed executive function skills. Some environments might lead a students to maintain contact with old friends who are not a good influence. it depends on the student. 

[Tokyomarie]

I encouraged one of my daughters to take her financial safety. I wish now I had encouraged her to go ahead with the other choice, even though it was more expensive (but not exorbitantly more expensive) because it was more highly ranked and had a better known department in her major. I think it's possible she would have been more likely to find her "tribe" with regards to students in her major even though she originally felt the professor who would mentor her at the university she chose was a better fit.

[8filltheheart]

My kids don't apply to schools that they have a strong dislike for, but they have applied to schools that they aren't head over heels for. But, they also don't have the freedom of choice. They have the limits of finances which means that they would have to accept the full ride. But, since we don't have the ability to turn that down, it is not relevant.

 

Fwiw, if the school is VCU or a similar environment, I can completely understand your Dd's reaction from walking around on campus. I do not like it all. That said, my kids say the outside impression really isn't the same as the inside. (They were not undergrads there, so their perspective is not full life there.) But we know lots of kids who did/do attend and really love it. Some of the off campus apartments and the provided transportation help the escape from the over all feel of the school.

[Laura in CA]

My husband was "forced" by his single mother (who was freaked out by college costs) to live at home and commute to the local state uni with a full scholarship (an OK school; nothing to write home about). He is willing to sacrifice so that our sons can attend schools they are genuinely excited about -- a good "fit," rigorous academics, smart, motivated fellow students, etc.

 

ETA: My husband isn't bitter (well, not too much); it all ended up fine. He was accepted at every grad school he applied to -- Princeton, MIT, Berkeley, and someplace in Texas. However, he spent a lonely four years simultaneously being a (lonely) big fish in a small pond, with no fellow students who shared his excitement about physics, and being worried about grad-school admissions. He knew he had to ace his GREs, for example; a 4.0 at a mediocre school wouldn't hold much weight.

 

(I ended up -- much to my surprise -- at a school that is currently a popular so-called dream school, after applying on a whim and being offered a truckload of money. And had a fantastic four years. I would never have attended without financial aid. But I don't feel as strongly about this issue as my husband does.)

 

I posted on another thread about our friend who turned down MIT b/c it would have meant what now looks like a reasonable, moderate amount of debt.

 

ETA: We ran into this as well with our older son. We had what we thought was a wonderful safety school all lined up, until my son admitted he just didn't like the school. Well, what good is a safety school that the student will balk at attending? It seems obvious, but my husband and I were reluctant to take it off his list!

 

I always stress to people asking for advice that a safety has to be three things: a sure acceptance; financially feasible; and the student has to be willing to attend. :)

People usually focus only on the first criterion, and maybe on the first two.

 

[JumpedIntoTheDeepEndFirst]

If you find yourself in such a situation you might consider visiting the top couple acceptances and the scholarship school on the accepted student tour days.  I think one's perspective can change greatly once you are past the admissions process and down to final choices.

 

Then a long look at the financials.  Scholarship vs lots of loans is a big choice.  One that you (the student) makes for your future and potentially that of any family as it can take years to pay off.

 

Finally-which schools cover the student's academic plan a and plan b. 

[mamato4]

Same position as you, Quill.  DS did not even want to apply to this safety but I made him (yes, just to make me feel better.)  He received an e-mail to go in for an interview in their honors program on a Friday.  He wasn't keen on doing that.  Then on Saturday, at a robotics meet, we met this young lady who happens to be a freshman at that school and in the honors program.  We talked to her and her enthusiasm for that school was very evident.  

 

DS admitted to her that that school is at the bottom of his list and she said the same thing.  It was her bottom-of-the-barrel choice.  She got accepted at other schools but it boiled down to finances for her. She, not her parents, made the choice not to go into debt or put a financial burden on her parents.  But now that she's in the program, she absolutely loves it.  That made DS go in for the interview and he did get into the honors program.  We're still waiting for the financial package and the decisions from the other colleges he applied to.

 

In all honesty, the main reason he doesn't like that safety is the location. It's in a downtown area in a city with a bad reputation, but it's pretty okay around the campus area (there are two colleges in the area which are next to each other.)  Ranking-wise, it's rated higher than our state in engineering so it is a good school, just in a not very nice location.

 

So not much help from me, but we will be having a long, hard discussion about all this when the other decisions come out.  I wish you the best with the decision-making.

[Catherine]

I think it is a very difficult question to answer.  My own college choice was completely dictated by finances.  I was not happy there, but got a good education and I was not completely miserable, it just wasn't a great fit for me.  My oldest overshot the mark and wasn't admitted to any of the schools he really loved-he ended up at his safety with a very nice merit package.  He has been very happy there and would be the first person to tell you that he did not 1) start off there with a positive attitude 2) have an accurate impression of the place at all before he went there. 

 

I would not stint on a school my child really loved, IF I could afford it, which hopefully, I can.  From the child's perspective, I can say honestly that it stinks to know you have no choices, and having them for our kids is the privilege of what dh and I have worked so hard for all our lives.  OTOH, it is definitely true that a kid may not have a clear impression of a place before they actually are a student there. 

[katilac]

I'd probably start with gently pointing out that I don't believe they really can't find one single thing to like about the school, but my kids are used to me being very big on finding the positives in any situation. I have talked quite a bit about the fact that they can be happy anywhere they go, get a good job and have a good life. 

 

Then I'd move on to talking about choices. We've been doing this for a while, kind of setting the stage (I have one junior and one freshman). They don't yet know an exact figure for how much we can pay per year, but they have a ballpark idea. We have talked about what might happen if you attend a school at the tippy-top or above our contribution, and what might happen if you get substantial aid and save us a lot of money. 

 

If you want a really expensive school, then you may be on your own after that for grad school or setting up house. If you go the other way and attend a school that really saves us money, then we might be able to help with a car or study abroad or grad school. We don't make promises, and we make sure they understand that things can change with illness or job loss, but the plan is that we have x amount of money that we will use to stake them in life.

 

If they are able to make college substantially less expensive, we aren't going to jet off to Vegas and spend it on the roulette wheel; we will help in other ways. If they think the pricier college is worth it, that's fine as well.  We want them to make an informed decision, whether it's College A with a semester abroad, or College B and no extras. 

 

Again, it's not an exact amount of money per kid, and we wouldn't give one kid a bazillion dollars if they get a full ride and the other kid nothing if they don't, lol. We will pay state flagship prices no matter what, and more for a great fit, but a really pricey school (for us) will mean a lack of extras somewhere else. 

[Tsuga]

My financial contribution would be the same--as much as I could do.

 

However, I would probably not co-sign on loans in the event that another school was offering a free education.

 

That is me feeling that what I can afford does not include loans unless it is an emergency or last resort.

 

I would co-sign if it was the only chance at college, and then, not private loans. Private loans I cannot afford.

 

I would strongly encourage my child to use that scholarship as leverage, and to consider going to CC for two years to get a scholarship to the school of choice.

 

This is assuming we are talking about $20k/year here, in other words, 1/5th of a house.

 

(Also, can I just say... I think it's okay to switch schools partway through! Take transferable classes particularly if you are feeling like you might not stay, and stay in touch with the place you're going to if it doesn't work out so you know what you need where you're going. You can do that. No biggie. :)

[Nan in Mass]

You can get a house for 100k?  Nice!  Here, a year of private school is about 1/5th of a house.  Not a great house, in not a great town.  It's about 1/6th of a niceish older smaller house.  We pointed this out to our children.  There was an obvious link because we could afford to help them with college because we had been thrifty and paid of our own house and we offered to house them for free after college so they can pay off their loans more quickly.  We think college is more important than a house, and they know that, so the house comparison wasn't as upsetting as it might have been otherwise.  A house is the only really good tangible thing in their experience that comes anywhere near the price of college.  Nothing else we own comes close.

 

Nan

[J-rap]

The thing is, if there was not one thing my child liked about it, she would not have even applied there.  Even our "safety" schools were ones that she liked.

[Tsuga]

You can get a house for 100k?  Nice!  Here, a year of private school is about 1/5th of a house.  Not a great house, in not a great town.  It's about 1/6th of a niceish older smaller house.  We pointed this out to our children.  There was an obvious link because we could afford to help them with college because we had been thrifty and paid of our own house and we offered to house them for free after college so they can pay off their loans more quickly.  We think college is more important than a house, and they know that, so the house comparison wasn't as upsetting as it might have been otherwise.  A house is the only really good tangible thing in their experience that comes anywhere near the price of college.  Nothing else we own comes close.

 

Nan

 

No, I meant over the course of four years. So that would be $80k*4=$320k for a little abode.

 

Point being, I'm not taking that out in loans and when I co-sign yes it is my loan.

 

There would be exceptions. The situation in which the child is fit for military or Peace Corps service, or has a scholarship, would not be an exception.

[Nan in Mass]

Ah, I see.  So your area is about like our area.  I would be highly unlikely to take out loans for that whole amount, also.  A combination of out-of-pocket, loans, scholarships, and savings IS something we are doing.  60k a year all as loans, even for an engineering degree, we would be highly unlikely to do.

 

Nan

[Gratia271]

...to the uni or college that is at the bottom of their "desirability" list. Let's say it was dc's safety and *nothing* else. They didn't like one thing about the school.

 

What would you do?

 

This is still hypothetical, but clearly, it could happen IRL. Would you build a case for attending the "cheap" school if you could afford his or her favorite(s)? Would you only sell the "cheap" school if it was no way on the desirable school(s)?

 

I would only do this if there was no way a school of their choice was feasible. 

[MamaAkins]

We are in a somewhat similar situation.  Dd applied to a small, private school (Wingate University).  She was awarded nearly a full ride ($25000 in scholarships per year, plus financial aid).  She can go there and incur minimal debt (meaning she can probably graduate with less than $5000 in loans over the 4 years of undergrad studies).  The downfalls--its a very small school, probably not as academically challenging as the other schools on her list, and it doesn't have as many programs/clubs/extracurriculars as she would like.   But, we are not in a financial position to help with much of the college costs.  Her top two choices at this time, Elon University and High Point University, are around 45K per year. While she has been awarded presidential scholarships at both (6K and 10K per year, respectively) and is pursuing other scholarships, it likely won't add up to enough for her to be able to attend these schools without incurring large student loans. We are waiting to make decisions until she has all final offers in from all of the schools.  It's going to be a tough decision for her.  

[Guest]

The thing is, if there was not one thing my child liked about it, she would not have even applied there. Even our "safety" schools were ones that she liked.

Well, her opinion of the school has decreased over time. When she applied, she knew it was at the bottom of her list, but I told her she had to choose a financial, in-state safety that she could live with if either a) her favorites declined admission; b) her favorites don't offer substantial dollars. She did choose three in-states - two that she likes well, but that have a few drawbacks, and this last one, which is both the least expensive and the easiest admission. Well, one of the two she liked declined admission. (Maryland College Park). That still leaves St. Mary's, which is a fantastic school where I believe she would be very happy (but that she doesn't think she likes as well as her OOS faves) and the last remaining choice which has not sent a decision yet.

 

Anyway...long story short, she DOES have very good options available to her; I think this has lowered her opinion of the safety more and more.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

While I wouldn't support my kid going wildly in debt for a dream school just because they wanted it, I also wouldn't insist on a school just because it is nearly free.

 

In the same way that when we buy or rent a house we weigh a lot of options and don't just look at the price. Nor do we ignore the realities of what we can spend.

[J-rap]

Well, her opinion of the school has decreased over time. When she applied, she knew it was at the bottom of her list, but I told her she had to choose a financial, in-state safety that she could live with if either a) her favorites declined admission; b) her favorites don't offer substantial dollars. She did choose three in-states - two that she likes well, but that have a few drawbacks, and this last one, which is both the least expensive and the easiest admission. Well, one of the two she liked declined admission. (Maryland College Park). That still leaves St. Mary's, which is a fantastic school where I believe she would be very happy (but that she doesn't think she likes as well as her OOS faves) and the last remaining choice which has not sent a decision yet.

 

Anyway...long story short, she DOES have very good options available to her; I think this has lowered her opinion of the safety more and more.

 

I see.  That's a tough situation, and it depends on a number of things.  Of course you want her to be happy and get some enjoyment out of it, but unless my child had aspirations that could really only be met at certain schools (and I really believed she had it in her to meet them), we would need to work out a solution that was financially feasible.  it might mean the cheaper college for two years and then transferring, or a mid-range college where she could save money by living with a relative, or a third option that hasn't been discovered yet.  :)  (another school completely?)  I'm more and more under the impression that a solid but not top undergraduate college is very fine, and that if you go on to graduate school after that, that's where the school becomes more important. And also, that some students don't even need to go to a 4-year liberal arts college for what they want to do.  They can be trained at a technical college, for example.

 

I guess you will just have to wait and see how it all evolves!  Maybe you'll be pleasantly surprised at the outcome and you won't have to make difficult decisions.  :)

 

[Granny_Weatherwax]

 

I guess you will just have to wait and see how it all evolves!  Maybe you'll be pleasantly surprised at the outcome and you won't have to make difficult decisions.  :)

.

 

This is my hope for everyone.

[chiguirre]

Well, her opinion of the school has decreased over time. When she applied, she knew it was at the bottom of her list, but I told her she had to choose a financial, in-state safety that she could live with if either a) her favorites declined admission; b) her favorites don't offer substantial dollars. She did choose three in-states - two that she likes well, but that have a few drawbacks, and this last one, which is both the least expensive and the easiest admission. Well, one of the two she liked declined admission. (Maryland College Park). That still leaves St. Mary's, which is a fantastic school where I believe she would be very happy (but that she doesn't think she likes as well as her OOS faves) and the last remaining choice which has not sent a decision yet.

 

Anyway...long story short, she DOES have very good options available to her; I think this has lowered her opinion of the safety more and more.

I wouldn't worry until you have all the financial aid packages in hand and have called the schools she likes the best to see if they'll match the megabucks scholarship. Even if they won't, they might sweeten the pot enough to make the best decision obvious. Once you're admitted, they'd really like you to enroll so they're motivated to make that happen if they can. The waiting is nerve wracking, but your dd has got some good options already and might have more soon.

[Mom22ns]

We have a similar situation. Ds has been offered excellent merit aid at the local State U Honors College. We had him apply as a financial safety. He liked it ok when he looked at the program on paper. Visiting made him like it less. Having taken dual enrollment classes at that U makes it even less appealing to him. They have the major he wants. We've check the profs in the classes he cares most about on Rate My Professor and it seems there are some good ones. It would probably be fine. He does NOT WANT TO GO there. 

 

His first choice has accepted him and given him there top category of merit aid, but will not name the dollar amount of the scholarship until March. I have made ds keep the financial safety available as a fall back. We have put down a deposit, turned in the scheduling and housing questionnaires, etc at first choice college. It is hard for me to imagine not making it work. We do know the minimum that the scholarship will be and honestly, we can do it for a couple of years based on our college savings. The last couple of years may require me getting a job. 

 

Ok let's face it, he's going to first choice, but I'm still hanging onto financial safety because I'm still scared.

[justkeepswimming]

My fine child would immediately be set on the task of finding things to love about said beautiful, blessed school that is paying for her to take classes there. :laugh: I would be giddily dancing about celebrating the moment. lol

 

Then she would hold her breath as she hoped that the other, more hoped-for, opportunities presented themselves in a timely fashion. ;)

 

 

[Laura Corin]

 I think it's possible she would have been more likely to find her "tribe" with regards to students in her major even though she originally felt the professor who would mentor her at the university she chose was a better fit.

 

Finding your tribe is something that I think is very important.  I went to a lesser-regarded university because it had an excellent department for half of the degree (joint subject degree) that I wanted to study.  

 

I definitely found my tribe of passionate people in that (drama) department.  Unfortunately, the other department (French) was not academically exciting - the students seemed to be getting by with as little work as possible (reading the texts in translation, for example) and the academics were fulfilling themselves by private research, because they seemed depressed by their teaching.

 

ETA: when we toured Warwick University, which does a lot of research, through its business school, on why students do well at university, they said that attitudes to the subject and university were very important.  If you really don't like the subject/really didn't want to come to the university, then getting up on a Sunday morning and writing that essay is not going to be an attractive prospect.  

 

I'd be worried if the student found nothing good about a proposed place/course of study except that it was free, unless there were no other reasonable options.

 

L

[readinmom]

Just because it's free/low cost doesn't make it a great fit.  

 

Is it the area the school is in?  Friend's dc turned down a full ride because once visited, it turned out that the area had nothing in terms of off campus availability.  Nearest shopping/restaurants was 20+ miles away.  Not a lot of activities, clubs, etc.  

 

If a student isn't happy going in, the results are going to be somewhat lukewarm, in my opinion.  

[Tsuga]

 

 

they said that attitudes to the subject and university were very important.  If you really don't like the subject/really didn't want to come to the university, then getting up on a Sunday morning and writing that essay is not going to be an attractive prospect.  

 

That is true, but I think attitude is something that a person decides on and cultivates. It doesn't have to do with circumstances. It is how you choose to react to circumstances.

 

If your family is between 30th and 75th% for income, has recession debt, and you are between 50th and 95th% academically, and you are looking for a "good fit" then you are in for a nasty shock come college admissions time, because this is not 1965 and nobody's handing out a full ride for Eagle Scout. The people at the tippy-top academically and lower tier financially will have need met. But they should--they've overcome a lot. The rest of us are either going to have kids who are truly exceptional, as in, .01% academically without accommodations, or we are going to pay.

 

For those young people, a good attitude about how the world works is going to be THE deciding factor for their futures.

 

I have serious doubts about someone's readiness for college if she cannot buck up and make a cost-effective decision or see the point of not taking out $60k in loans, which is what 1/2 scholarship at a private school could leave you with after four years. When she goes to college, a young person should be able to have a good attitude, cultivated by her own actions and determination to make it, that would make her able to get up on Sunday and write a paper even if this wasn't her "dream school".

 

If she isn't at that point psychologically or intellectually, why not take a year and work her butt off to see what college is worth?

 

Not having a dream job or not having a dream apartment or not having an easy relationship at one point doesn't make a bad attitude, so why does not having "a good fit" university excuse a poor attitude? Nobody is saying that here but I think it's important to make the distinction.

 

Now I know a lot of people on this board are WAY better off than us. So they can say, "Well my kid shouldn't have to deal with this struggle. That struggle is practically abuse, and while poor people suffer and I'm sorry for them, that's not for my kid. My kids have a right to an individually-tailored K-12 curriculum, to the best-fit university, to personalized support throughout." And that is just a class difference. And for people in those circumstances, if you have the money to let your kid know they are entitled to x, y, and z in a college, I'm assuming you're ready to pay for that attitude and to facilitate that lifestyle. It takes money--depending on the child, sometimes a LOT of money. And while that's not my life, I'm not going to say I wouldn't do it if I could.

 

What is unfair is to cultivate an attitude of "needing a good fit" if you do not have the means to support that attitude throughout the launch. Some people do have the means. We do not. "Good fit" is a privilege, not a right. First you look at finance, the cost-benefit analysis, then you look at "fit".

 

I realize that sometimes, there is a cost to going to a worse-ranked university, a cost paid in connections, starting salary, etc. and I'm not saying ignore that. But if the kid starts talking about the dorms, the clubs, the trees, one particular advisor... this is a GREAT time to point out that life is what you make of it.

[Guest]

That is true, but I think attitude is something that a person decides on and cultivates. It doesn't have to do with circumstances. It is how you choose to react to circumstances.

 

If your family is between 30th and 75th% for income, has recession debt, and you are between 50th and 95th% academically, and you are looking for a "good fit" then you are in for a nasty shock come college admissions time, because this is not 1965 and nobody's handing out a full ride for Eagle Scout. The people at the tippy-top academically and lower tier financially will have need met. But they should--they've overcome a lot. The rest of us are either going to have kids who are truly exceptional, as in, .01% academically without accommodations, or we are going to pay.

 

For those young people, a good attitude about how the world works is going to be THE deciding factor for their futures.

 

I have serious doubts about someone's readiness for college if she cannot buck up and make a cost-effective decision or see the point of not taking out $60k in loans, which is what 1/2 scholarship at a private school could leave you with after four years. When she goes to college, a young person should be able to have a good attitude, cultivated by her own actions and determination to make it, that would make her able to get up on Sunday and write a paper even if this wasn't her "dream school".

 

If she isn't at that point psychologically or intellectually, why not take a year and work her butt off to see what college is worth?

 

Not having a dream job or not having a dream apartment or not having an easy relationship at one point doesn't make a bad attitude, so why does not having "a good fit" university excuse a poor attitude? Nobody is saying that here but I think it's important to make the distinction.

 

Now I know a lot of people on this board are WAY better off than us. So they can say, "Well my kid shouldn't have to deal with this struggle. That struggle is practically abuse, and while poor people suffer and I'm sorry for them, that's not for my kid. My kids have a right to an individually-tailored K-12 curriculum, to the best-fit university, to personalized support throughout." And that is just a class difference. And for people in those circumstances, if you have the money to let your kid know they are entitled to x, y, and z in a college, I'm assuming you're ready to pay for that attitude and to facilitate that lifestyle. It takes money--depending on the child, sometimes a LOT of money. And while that's not my life, I'm not going to say I wouldn't do it if I could.

 

What is unfair is to cultivate an attitude of "needing a good fit" if you do not have the means to support that attitude throughout the launch. Some people do have the means. We do not. "Good fit" is a privilege, not a right. First you look at finance, the cost-benefit analysis, then you look at "fit".

 

I realize that sometimes, there is a cost to going to a worse-ranked university, a cost paid in connections, starting salary, etc. and I'm not saying ignore that. But if the kid starts talking about the dorms, the clubs, the trees, one particular advisor... this is a GREAT time to point out that life is what you make of it.

Binip, you make many great points. I think part of why it is difficult for me to sort this out in my head is because I have acquaintance with the class attitudes of both dirt poor and better off. I grew up poor. My parents, besides sending out the vibe that girls don't go to college, also made it clear there was no money in their pockets for sending daughters to college. So my history is constructed such that if *I* could get/could have gotten a free ride to any college, that would have been an amazing win, no matter if the school was out in the stix, stuck in the bad part of town, or dead last on college rankings.

 

But we have moved out of that economic slot. We are in a comfortable enough position that all of the schools on DD's list are possible. If they were not possible, I would not have brought them to her attention, visited them, or encouraged her to apply. But clearly, the two OOS favorites are going to cost substantially more, unless some unexpected merit aid falls into place.

 

I do agree with teaching kids that life is what you make it; I have promoted that view all their lives and it is a guiding principal for me personally.

[Tsuga]

Wow, really sorry to hear you faced that with your parents, Quill. What a tough road for a girl. :(

 

It is very hard to struggle for a better life and then to see kids not understand what was required to make that life happen. I get it. I hope your DD gets merit aid!

[8filltheheart]

snip

 

"Good fit" is a privilege, not a right. First you look at finance, the cost-benefit analysis, then you look at "fit".

 

Snip

 

I realize that sometimes, there is a cost to going to a worse-ranked university, a cost paid in connections, starting salary, etc. and I'm not saying ignore that. But (snip) this is a GREAT time to point out that life is what you make of it.

This is the reality my children face. They are strong students. Their dad makes too much money to qualify for much in terms of aid, but the reality is that he only makes enough to support our large family's making ends meet. There is no way we can pay our EFC.

 

Fit is what my kids either have to create for themselves or make do. It does not have to be a "match" for them to have waiting for them upon arrival.

 

I think about my parents. My mom dropped out of school in 8th grade to work in a factory BC their house had burned down. Every child in that family was expected to work in order to help rebuild their lives. (She was 1 of 10 kids.) Our lives are pure luxury compared to those who grew up in other generations. My parents always emphasized wants vs needs and we do the same with our own children. Yes, there are definitely real needs (degree being sought, employability after degree, physical safety), but wants......that is a 1000 shades of gray, and sacrificing financial stabilty over wants, that is a serious issue.

 

If it is not a financial hardship, then that is a completely different situation than families taking on huge debt (which sounds like the case of the OP. Great position to be in bc then choices are simply choices.)

 

It takes investigating options before applying in order to make sure the financial safety is going to satisfy real needs. It is too late later to go searching bc wants got in the way during the early application process and left a situation where there is no financial match. That is an unfortunate position to be in---lots of debt or no school. That is a reality that some families corner themselves into bc they get sucked into wants and prestige over finances and meeting real needs.

 

ETA: I posted this before I finished reading the subsequent posts. Quill, I don't want you to think my post was directed toward you bc it definitely isn't. It is simply my musings from reading about kids placed in unenviable positions bc they didn't apply to financial safeties.

[Tsuga]

8FilltheHeart, I need you to edit my book. Just... snip away.

[flyingiguana]

My kids ended up at the cheap school. 

 

They explored the other options and decided the extra money/debt wasn't worth the extra prestige or the major they thought they couldn't live without.  And they started to consider that they could always do that "other thing" in grad school.

 

But -- the cheap school was still one they could stand.  And as the decision making process went forward, they found more and more things they liked about it.  For my first daughter, it actually became her first choice over several others.  For my 2nd daughter, she just figured they were all about the same anyway.  Given what she was comparing, she was likely right.  (I'm not sure what would have been added to the mix to make it any different though.)

 

I do see that they each could have gone to a school with a better music program, but as neither wanted that to be their main focus in college, it wasn't a huge disappointment.  However, with my 2nd, I suspect she'd be following through with a music double major if she was at a school with a decent music program.  But then she likely wouldn't have time for her physics/computer science majors.

 

I've already started prepping her for looking in to masters in music once she finishes undergrad.  If, maybe, she can swing a tuition waiver or something along those lines....  If she can't, I'll advise a graduate program in engineering where she can slip in music classes/study at the university as well.  That's what I ended up doing in my science PhD program. 

[flyingiguana]

It's also interesting to watch the kids who ended up at their dream schools.  Freshman year and my daughters' friends aren't quite as happy with those choices as one might expect or hope.

 

A lot of colleges have a lot of good things about them.  There aren't that many that are real dogs.  And even the dream schools have their, um, issues.

[flyingiguana]

BTW -- I'll also add that it's actually not too late to look in to other safeties if that particular one isn't appealing.

 

My 2nd applied to her safety in July because she was majorly dragging her feet.  Got accepted with decent financial aid even that late in the game.

 

 

[flyingiguana]

The school I'm speaking of, the safety, isn't a dump; it's not a down-graded school that would make you go, "You applied *THERE*?" Many wonderfully-educated people have graduated from the safety, including people in my family. So, big-picture-wise, it would not be a disadvantageous school.

 

She didn't mesh there. The school has an urban vibe and a lot of hipster types; not her style. While we were visiting, a student sporting a cannabis tee asked us if we wanted any info on drug policy, LOL! I know even that single odd moment went far in influencing her that she won't fit in at that school. (Please don't think I'm naive; I am well aware that there is pot-smoking at JMU or U Del, too.)

 

 

I'd go on another tour, if you could.  Or I'd try to sit in on classes or talk with professors.  Find out what clubs are there that might interest her and see if there is some activity she could sit in on.  If the club interests her, she may find there are more people there that are her type.

 

A lot of times, the tours just seem guaranteed to drive kids away.  They can often be run by clueless students.  Or clueless admissions people.  And the loud, odd students are a lot more visible than the quieter types.

 

I really would look at the school more closely if this is all that drove her away.

[bettyandbob]

I'd go on another tour, if you could. Or I'd try to sit in on classes or talk with professors. Find out what clubs are there that might interest her and see if there is some activity she could sit in on. If the club interests her, she may find there are more people there that are her type.

 

A lot of times, the tours just seem guaranteed to drive kids away. They can often be run by clueless students. Or clueless admissions people. And the loud, odd students are a lot more visible than the quieter types.

 

I really would look at the school more closely if this is all that drove her away.

Yes, I'd visit again. I'd make appoints with departments of potential major. I'd be comparing research and internship connections and opportunities closely.

[Annie G]

Oldest dd had a full ride to a local state school and a smaller scholarship to a pricey private school. She really wanted to attend the private school but we had three more kids at home and knew it would be a hardship to take out loans for her to attend. She was disappointed but took off to the state school while her boyfriend started at the private school. 

 

Two years later her boyfriend transferred to the state school because his parents couldn't afford the private school.  He had $11000 in loans for the first two years. They both graduated from the state school and dd paid his loans off because she was able to save that much working since she didn't have to pay tuition. 

 

They both went to grad school and came out debt free, due to scholarships and working through grad school. Dd discovered a wonderful mentor at the state school and he not only provided her with some awesome opportunities, he's been one of her best friends for years. His wife has been such a wonderful friend, helping dd and dsil navigate their adoption journey.  

 

Taking the less expensive route was the perfect choice for them...not that it is for everyone, but we couldn't have imagined how wonderful this school would be for her.   

[Guest]

Oldest dd had a full ride to a local state school and a smaller scholarship to a pricey private school. She really wanted to attend the private school but we had three more kids at home and knew it would be a hardship to take out loans for her to attend. She was disappointed but took off to the state school while her boyfriend started at the private school.

 

Two years later her boyfriend transferred to the state school because his parents couldn't afford the private school. He had $11000 in loans for the first two years. They both graduated from the state school and dd paid his loans off because she was able to save that much working since she didn't have to pay tuition.

 

They both went to grad school and came out debt free, due to scholarships and working through grad school. Dd discovered a wonderful mentor at the state school and he not only provided her with some awesome opportunities, he's been one of her best friends for years. His wife has been such a wonderful friend, helping dd and dsil navigate their adoption journey.

 

Taking the less expensive route was the perfect choice for them...not that it is for everyone, but we couldn't have imagined how wonderful this school would be for her.

That is a wonderful story! Thanks so much for sharing it!

[Guest]

Yes, I'd visit again. I'd make appoints with departments of potential major. I'd be comparing research and internship connections and opportunities closely.

This is a good idea. I was revving up to do this with the in-state choice that she does like, to, shall we say, sell that school to her a bit more. But there is no reason we couldn't do that with Cannabis U as well, LOL!

[Annie G]

This is a good idea. I was revving up to do this with the in-state choice that she does like, to, shall we say, sell that school to her a bit more. But there is no reason we couldn't do that with Cannabis U as well, LOL!

 

Cannabis U!  Yup, I shot Pepsi Max through my nose when I read that.