Rich and poor friends

[ThursdayNext]

I was reading the thread "How do you live?" and am thinking how much a difference your friends/social group/neighborhood makes.

 

We formerly lived in the Midwest, with many married friends still trying to get through school, or working low paying jobs, or trying to get by on 1 income after kids. We had a tiny house, and used furniture, clothes, etc. Many of the people we knew spent money like we did.

 

We moved to a new state, with a higher income for my husband (49,000). After a year we bought a foreclosure house, found a church, got to know some people. But it seems that all our neighbors have a much higher income, since our house was "on clearance" and we could never have afforded it full price. And the people in our church, small group, Bible study (not with our church),husbands work, etc live so differently from us.

 

Seems like most everyone can afford multiple vacations including Disney at least once a year, surprise their spouse with a cruise for birthdays, buy new furniture, clothes, home accessories, pay for any kid activities they would like. When everyone is talking about the expensive toys, tablets, game systems they bought their kids for Christmas, I have nothing to say. When my friends tell me to sign my daughter up for ballet, or ask why we don't have a pool membership, it's so awkward when I tell them we can't afford it. Even suggesting trips to the zoo or a painting class, I have to say no because I'd need to have money set aside for that ahead of time. I feel so out of place with my "rich" friends, and I don't want to be resentful or judging them.

 

I wish I had some poor friends. But that seems wrong to say or wrong for me to make such a big deal about it. Advice? Commiseration? How do you handle this? Or thoughts from the other side of this, the rich person with poor friends?

[Mandylubug]

We are tight compared to most in our co-op. Co-op is a stretch for us and requires planning to make happen. Many families in it go to every single field trip and homeschool day at 15 bucks plus per child.. it just isn't feasible for us.

 

I typically reply to invites as it isn't in our budget but thanks for the invite. I also try to watch for free or near free activities and invite others to join.

 

It is nice when you do find that family that also can only afford a redbox and a dollar box of popcorn for movie night! It takes the pressure off.

[SamanthaCarter]

Apart from the neighborhood bit, I could have written your post. Not sure how we ended up in the socio-economic bubble we find ourselves in, where everyone else seems to be living a fairly lavish lifestyle. I blame it on our choice of church. (Only half joking, I really like our church)

 

I think we need to get involved in some volunteer/charitable activities to help with my (our) perspective. 

 

Also..."Seems like most everyone can afford multiple vacations including Disney at least once a year, surprise their spouse with a cruise for birthdays, buy new furniture, clothes, home accessories, pay for any kid activities they would like" might be you compiling several families together to create an "everyone" in your head. I know I do that. It's is discouraging though. I've actually encountered both of your examples up there of having people tell me to sign my daughter up for ballet and me having to explain why we don't have a summer pool membership at the pool where "everyone" at church gathers in summertime. Blah. 

[poppy]

I feel you. I am fairly well off (IMO) but I belong to a church in a neighboring town that is much wealthier, and I feel it.  Everyone is an attorney or surgeon.  Everyone's kid goes to a private academy that's hard to get into, even though their town's public school is tops in the state.  Everyone has huge gorgeous house that they hired a designer to decorate.   I don't mind, but, when it's time to play 'whose house should we meet at', I am too embarrassed to show off my 1100 sq foot , full of toys, dingy-furniture cramped Cape.

I realistically know that these folks aren't all that likely to judge me -- or if they did, it wouldn't really matter.   They'd likely be horrified to know I felt this way. This is a church with a strong social justice mission and genuinely nice people.  But I can't help it.   

 

And I wouldn't be surprised to learn that most of them look at folks in the next rung up with some jealousy.  It stinks, but, that's human nature.  Or at least, that's the culture we live in.

[MedicMom]

We make a decent income, twice the household income of the county we live. We expect it to be cut in half here at some point so we live below our means and try to save.

 

But even before that, we never bought our kids the flashiest electronics or anything like that. They have good quality things, but not everything they want. And I can pay for classes and outings--the breathing room is nice.

 

But the flip side is that DH and I work long hours.

 

What I've realized though, watching coworkers buy the newest trucks and dodge Chargers and various expensive toys, is that they are hugely in debt. So though sometimes I feel a little jealous, there is a price to pay, one way or another, for everything.

[Guest]

Well, this *IS* why people tend to hang around others of similar means and values. These conversations can get awkward for all involved. It's also why I tend to mesh well with the homeschoolers in my area. The hsers are far more likely to be frugal, not talk a lot abound brands, phones, trips, etc. than the wider population.

 

The school district near here is what I (to myself) call the Snobby school. It's all North Face jackets and Uggs and Underarmour. It gags me. A friend of mine with a kid in that school said, "My 11-year-old is begging for an iPhone. Not a CELL phone, an IPHONE. Every friend she has owns one."

 

We are of decent means, but consumerism bothers me. I would much rather hang with similarly-minded folks. A few of my family members have become quite affluent. Their conversations bother me, not because I can't afford those things, but because I don't value those things.

[SparklyUnicorn]

I don't think you are asking for friends who can make you feel better because they are worse off, but I get asking to feel like you can be around people who can relate.  I feel like I am mostly around people I can relate to on that front.  I'd say with homeschoolers the two main types I encounter are either those who manage by sacrificing or that they happen to have a spouse who makes a lot of money.  Although then you'd be surprised too because sometimes people just go into bigger debt and it's not that they have more money.  I had a friend I assumed was pretty well off.  They lived in a much bigger house and in a much more expensive area.  They had nice everything.  But then she complained about money all the time.  Her husband and her fought about money.  You just never really know what goes on with some people. 

 

 

[T'smom]

I have friends both significantly better off than we are and friends that are not. It is good to be around both. I try to suggest activities that are inexpensive for friends that aren't because what I really want is to spend time with them. Not make them feel like they have to stretch their budget to do something fun. I remind myself that those with more probably feel the same way about me.

[regentrude]

We are not rich, but have a significantly larger family income than many of my homeschooling friends. I do not feel it is a big issue - we don't flaunt it, but we don't go out of our way to hide it. Activities in our homeschool group are organized with everybody being mindful of the poorest families for whom a $5 outing fee is a hardship. No more than one of those per month. Nobody would brag about being able to afford expensive classes, and information is shared about bargains - but then again, those who can afford to travel do not feel the need to be ashamed.

 

On the other hand, I have friends who are more wealthy, but nobody displays conspicuous wealth or lets it hang out. The all drive older cars. Not sure what some are spending their money on. One friend is a wine lover who can afford expensive wines; he is extremely generous in sharing but never presumes that we are playing in the same league. We have no problem saying that we can't afford to go in on a wine deal.

 

It helps that absolutely nobody in my circle of friends and acquaintances is very materialistic and stuff-driven. Poor and rich alike seem to value experiences more than things. Material possessions are not really a topic  of conversation, and we are all somewhat removed from mainstream.

In our homeschool group, we have a wonderful giveaway system where anybody who does no longer want an item brings it for giveaway. The nice thing is that this done for environmental reasons; so, when I give a poorer friend kids' clothes, that is simply a way to reuse and thus does not have any negative connotations of "charity for the less fortunate", with all the issues that entails, IYKWIM. Interestingly, our internal group culture is such that it is definitely frowned upon when somebody wants to sell an item to another mom... I recall two ladies who wanted to be paid for the stuff they brought, which did not go over well, LOL.

 

[Big Buckin' Longhorn]

You know, it's funny. Somehow I've managed to find a *very* wealthy group of friends, who don't flash their money at all. In fact, under their influence I've become much, much, MUCH less materialistic. I used to try to live beyond my means. No more.

 

These people easily make 4 to 5 times what we make. They live in homes as large as my block, but unless you actually went to their house, you could never guess. And I know for a fact that one of my girlfriends' multi-million $$ home is fully paid for, no mortgage.

 

But we all wear very regular clothes, not necessarily name brand. We all use coupons. We all go to events on free admission days. We go to restaurants and share appetizers to save money, etc . . . We all live a very frugal lifestyle. Now they do travel out of the country for vacations, but what can I possibly say about that, they can afford it. I can't. My deal, not theirs. The thing is, our day-to-day lives are terribly similar. We relate as people, and that's what matters.

 

You really need friends who value the same life experience as you, not who are in the same tax bracket as you. I'm sorry you're struggling though, I know how hard it is.

[poppy]

You know, it's funny. Somehow I've managed to find a *very* wealthy group of friends, who don't flash their money at all. In fact, under their influence I've become much, much, MUCH less materialistic. I used to try to live beyond my means. No more.

 

These people easily make 4 to 5 times what we make. They live in homes as large as my block, but unless you actually went to their house, you could never guess. And I know for a fact that one of my girlfriends' multi-million $$ home is fully paid for, no mortgage.

 

But we all wear very regular clothes, not necessarily name brand. We all use coupons. We all go to events on free admission days. We go to restaurants and share appetizers to save money, etc . . . We all live a very frugal lifestyle. Now they do travel out of the country for vacations, but what can I possibly say about that, they can afford it. I can't. My deal, not theirs. The thing is, our day-to-day lives are terribly similar. We relate as people, and that's what matters.

 

You really need friends who value the same life experience as you, not who are in the same tax bracket as you. I'm sorry you're struggling though, I know how hard it is.

I'm going to guess that this and the OP's social situations are not all that different.... Some flashy friends (perhaps unwittingly so), some frugal friends (perhaps inclined to behave more frugally only with certain friends). I am thinking of the parables "what were the people in your last town like" as well as "it depends on which wolf you feed â€.

 

Hope that made sense to someone.

[Katy]

If it helps, probably many of those people are deeply in debt, and some of them might have a lower net worth than you do.  I'm sure some of our friends (where the wife works) have more than twice our income, but they also are so deep in debt sometimes they don't know how they're going to cover their payments that month.

 

We found it helpful when our church offered Dave Ramsey's class.  We already knew and mostly followed the principles in the class, but by taking it with some of our friends, it became much more acceptable to say "That's not in the budget this month" and not just have people assume we should charge things.

 

One other thing that might help you is learning about social classes.  I took a sociology class in college about this,  the textbook was Class: A Guide to the American Status System by Paul Fussell.  The need for conspicuous consumption is a sign of being only middle or upper middle class, having financial insecurity and having the need to prove to others your worth.  The truly upper class tend to buy used and keep the furniture until it's an antique, not care if things are tattered, hate conspicious brands, rarely redo their kitchens because it's a waste of money and kitchens are mostly used by maids anyway, just reupholster a sofa instead of buying a new one, etc...  It's much cheaper to take your time and find a good quality used sofa and reupholster it in a neutral fabric than it is to buy something new every few years. 

 

If you just want to compete socially (or maybe make those people feel guilty for spending more money than time with their families)  decide to make something a hobby that's not that expensive but that does require spending more time with your family than overconsumers can afford..  Buying used telemark skis, ski the hiking trails near your house, take lots of pictures.  Go backpacking in nice weather. Go fishing.  Learn crafts that take attention and precision.  Cook gourmet food from scratch and post it on instagram every night (even pasta with tomatoes, bacon, olive oil and parmesian looks pretty amazing if you put it in the right light).  Make a dessert every night too (usually sliced fruit and a square of chocolate here, it just takes a few minutes and is pretty and healthy).  Take pictures of the amazing things your kids are learning in homeschool.  Post about how happy you are that you are able to homeschool every time there's school violence on the news.

 

Okay, you get my point.  There's no need to get too carried away with bragging, but there's also no need to feel overly impressed when other people brag.  And you can generally tell the difference between people just sharing their lives and those who are just showing off because they're insecure and need some validation.

[KungFuPanda]

Start a "free stuff to do" club. I'll bet there are all sorts of things in your area do do and lots of people who,would like to participate. You can hike, letterbox, have picnics, meet at parks, have movie nights at home and pop your own popcorn. There are loads of fun things to do that don't involve spending money. You just need to find/form a like minded group of people who are willing to get a little creative to make a buck. My favorite 'free' activities (knowing that nothing is really free) is our Pie Club. We seriously get together and eat several types of homemade pie. We can talk about pie for a long time. Even if you CAN afford the movies and keep the lights on, some people hit a point in life where they're just tired of hemmorhaging money for every little thing. It's more comfortable to watch at home and you don't miss anything when a kid has to pee. All for a movie that will be released on DVD in ten minutes???

[Southern Ivy]

Seems like most everyone can afford multiple vacations including Disney at least once a year, surprise their spouse with a cruise for birthdays, buy new furniture, clothes, home accessories, pay for any kid activities they would like. When everyone is talking about the expensive toys, tablets, game systems they bought their kids for Christmas, I have nothing to say. When my friends tell me to sign my daughter up for ballet, or ask why we don't have a pool membership, it's so awkward when I tell them we can't afford it. Even suggesting trips to the zoo or a painting class, I have to say no because I'd need to have money set aside for that ahead of time. I feel so out of place with my "rich" friends, and I don't want to be resentful or judging them.

 

I wish I had some poor friends. But that seems wrong to say or wrong for me to make such a big deal about it. Advice? Commiseration? How do you handle this? Or thoughts from the other side of this, the rich person with poor friends?

Just because they can "afford" it, doesn't mean they should. Just because they are throwing money out the window left and right, it doesn't necessarily mean they have the money to spend. They could be in debt up to their eyeballs and spending money to pretend that they aren't. 

 

I get it, though, I really do! 

We are working hard to get out of debt (thanks to my poor financial skills in college, we were in debt to the tune of $100K for an education degree!) We technically have the money to spend on trips to the zoo, ballet, decorating my home, etc. But, not without staying in debt and being miserable and arguing about money all the time.

Instead, we have chosen to throw everything extra at our debt. 

 

I see my friends houses that are so adorable. I see their huge flat-screens and then look at our TV that is over 15 years old. So not "cool". I have to forego lots of outings. My daughter isn't in dance. We don't have a membership to the Y. Eating out is a huge treat.

There are some days I really resent it; but I have to remind myself that we are working towards a goal and at this time, those things are not conducive to meeting the goal. 

 

Two of my favorite sayings:

The grass is always greener on the other side, until you jump the fence and see the weeds up close. 

The grass is always greener because it's fertilized with bull****. 

 

just something to think about. ;)

 

[Guest]

I've been on both sides, and they are pretty much equally  uncomfortable, really.  About a year and a half ago, we moved out of a very wealthy neighborhood and into a neighborhood that is much closer to the kind I grew up in, and I have to say, I feel a lot more at home now.  I miss my old house, but not the trappings that went along with being in that neighborhood. 

 

Our church has helped to some degree, because honestly, even though we are fairly small, it was several YEARS before I knew what people did for their jobs.  We just don't talk about our jobs, really, and we hang out together after church every Sunday so we get to spend some time together without it's turning into "we want to go skiing but no one else has the time or the money" or "that group is going to a fancy restaurant and we can't go there..."  

 

A lot of good stuff has been posted upthread.  

[freesia]

I disagree that it's about bragging. IMO, when we moved to an area where we make much less than the folks around us, it was more the nickle and diming that isn't noticed by those with more. Many wouldn't see themselves as rich, either, but think nothing of saying, "Oh, can everyone pitch in 20 dollars a kid as a gift for the test proctor who is doing this for free" or "Bring a gift for the gift exchange at Boyscouts--no more than $20" or "Oh, can everyone pitch in $20 for a gift for the Bible Study Babysitters (not mentioned ahead of time)". It the casualness about having spare $20 bills in your purse or not having to think much about signing your child up for ballet. In our previous area, these would have been more like 5 or 10 dollars.

 

OP, it helps to find a friend who is in the same situation as you. I have one I can vent to when I am feeling exasperated. We also find or make free/low cost events happen for each other's kids.

[Arcadia]

You really need friends who value the same life experience as you, not who are in the same tax bracket as you.

 

I agree.  My neighborhood has enough tightwads for me to not feel out of place.

 

 

. Many wouldn't see themselves as rich, either, but think nothing of saying, "Oh, can everyone pitch in 20 dollars a kid as a gift for the test proctor who is doing this for free" or "Bring a gift for the gift exchange at Boyscouts--no more than $20" or "Oh, can everyone pitch in $20 for a gift for the Bible Study Babysitters (not mentioned ahead of time)". It the casualness about having spare $20 bills in your purse or not having to think much about signing your child up for ballet. In our previous area, these would have been more like 5 or 10 dollars.

 

 

That's common where I am.  $20 is the commonly asked amount for any pooled donation for outside activities.  However the ones who volunteer to collect usually add on that any amount is okay.  ATMs give out cash in $20 denominations and most of us don't carry cash so even if the ask for donation is $5 per kid, most just hand over a $20 bill.

[Ethel Mertz]

What I've realized though, watching coworkers buy the newest trucks and dodge Chargers and various expensive toys, is that they are hugely in debt. So though sometimes I feel a little jealous, there is a price to pay, one way or another, for everything.

 

Yes - I forget that so many finance vacations and big ticket items on credit cards and think nothing of it.

[fraidycat]

My kids wear or have worn Uggs, Underarmour, North face, Lululemon, etc.

 

I didn't realize that was snobby or gag-worthy. I reserve that designation for Louis Vuitton, Burberry, Coach, etc. :P

 

They don't own multiples, but their clothes wash up nicely and get handed down to friends in like new condition when outgrown, even after several washes. They've also been handed down brand name that looks new, even though I know it was worn quite a bit. There really is something to be said for quality and sales racks. Says this minimalist wannabe.

[Guest]

My kids wear or have worn Uggs, Underarmour, North face, Lululemon, etc.

 

I didn't realize that was snobby or gag-worthy. I reserve that designation for Louis Vuitton, Burberry, Coach, etc. :P

 

They don't own multiples, but their clothes wash up nicely and get handed down to friends in like new condition when outgrown, even after several washes. They've also been handed down brand name that looks new, even though I know it was worn quite a bit. There really is something to be said for quality and sales racks. Says this minimalist wannabe.

It's gaggy to me because it's a "thing." I have some things in all those brands, but at the time, I just got them because I liked them and they suited my purpose. But I don't like it when kids can "only" have an Underarmour sweatshirt or Ugg boots or whatever. When they deride non-Uggs as "Fuggs."

[fraidycat]

It's gaggy to me because it's a "thing." I have some things in all those brands, but at the time, I just got them because I liked them and they suited my purpose. But I don't like it when kids can "only" have an Underarmour sweatshirt or Ugg boots or whatever. When they deride non-Uggs as "Fuggs."

Ok yeah, that makes sense. The attitude vs. the items.

 

Consumerism and classism at it's finest.

[Ottakee]

When I am with friends, we try to make everything super low cost or free.  I have more money than some friends and a lot less than others.  We find that we can do a lot of things for free using the local parks around here, packing picnic lunches, etc.

I never want to make anyone feel left out if they can't afford an activity.

 

It is hard though.  I was a poorer rural girl who went to a Christian school that was the only "private" school in town and many families had their own airplanes, helicopter pads at home, brand new cars for their 16th birthday, etc.  Thankfully I found friends who had to work like me.

[Carrie12345]

:::shrug::: I think it's way more complicated than income.  People who can even roughly estimate our household income can't figure out why we don't do/have cooler stuff.  People who I can roughly estimate to have a fraction of our income often do/have way cooler stuff than we do.

I know where we spend our money, and I'm good with that.  If I wanted their "stuff", I'd have to give up mine.

[DawnM]

My friends run the gamut.  I have friends with much less and friends with much more.  I think we fall squarely in the middle really.  

 

We do take vacations every year, and do go to Disney every year......but ask me how frugal of a Disney trip I can take and you might be surprised!

 

We have far more than we need, and not everything we want.

[poppy]

It's gaggy to me because it's a "thing." I have some things in all those brands, but at the time, I just got them because I liked them and they suited my purpose. But I don't like it when kids can "only" have an Underarmour sweatshirt or Ugg boots or whatever. When they deride non-Uggs as "Fuggs."

 

I think that is much more kid-driven/peer-driven than parent snobbery.  I know so many parents (well off parents) who roll their eyes at what their kids say that they "need".  But it's not always wrong to indulge them, either.

[poppy]

I've been thinking about this. I use to belong to a summer pool club that is very expensive ($1800/summer, don't ask about the joining fee....)  Once you're a member, if you re-join by January, you get a 25% discount.    That's $450, not pocket change.

 

Now that I think of it, I am also in a beach club now that had a Black Friday special, $100 off for the summer if you join by Dec. 1.  The club doesn't start until summer.

 

So those are both cases where having the liquid funds to pay several hundred dollars 6+ months in advance can really save money. I'm not saying that having money gives you the ability to save money..... but it sure does give you more options. 

 

 

[AimeeM]

My neighborhood is pretty entirely middle class and upper middle class; it's a bit diverse in that, as the bottom end of the neighborhood homes run about $150K, and the top end of the neighborhood runs closer to 400K (it's a downtown neighborhood, so it's pretty... eclectic).

In our block of the neighborhood, most people do seem to have money for extras like sports, coffee out, random nice little extras... but not so much that they can randomly, immediately splurge on super pricey vacations (that's more of a "let's save for a few months" kind of deal); there are a few random luxury cars in the neighborhood, but more Toyotas lining the street than anything.

Among my friends, I guess we make quite a bit more. I only have a few friends, though.

Among my husband's friends, the income is more equal, since he works with most of them and they are in similar positions working within the same department (engineering); there is never any issue if one mentions wanting to go out to see a game, or everyone grabbing a few beers at a sports bar, or all meeting up for dinner somewhere.

 

I have no problem meeting up with my friends and doing something low-cost or free; if I invite a friend to do something that costs money, I always offer to pay - always; I invite them because I enjoy their company, and I would never want them to feel that they had to take money from something necessary in their lives just to hang out for a bit. Sometimes I invite them because I specifically want them to have an experience and a treat (like my best friend's birthday or something similar).

 

A year ago I would have very proudly said that money caused no problems between me and my very best friend. Unfortunately that isn't true now, and I feel like I'm losing my best friend BECAUSE of money. Well, that isn't accurate... I feel like I'm losing her because of hurt feelings, somewhat caused by the difference between her income and ours. I'm not sure how many more "must be nice" comments, eye rolls after ASKING what we paid for something, or otherwise snarky comments regarding money I can take before I lose it. I had thought that perhaps she was just in a bad place emotionally during a financial rough patch, but it isn't blowing over and it's taking a serious toll on our friendship. While she doesn't mind our income when she needs help, otherwise it is quickly becoming a serious problem between us. She can gush about what she got for free, or on a great sale, but if I gush about something I got on sale, it's quickly pointed out, while she laughs, that my idea of a sale price isn't what she considers a good price or affordable. Somehow, these days, everything seems to turn into price discussions (even the Lemax villages my husband surprised me with, which he found for 50% off, and the shatterproof balls he bought for our tree, turned into a "you know, you could have found just FINE ornaments at the dollar tree - what a waste!") and I'm not sure how to fix it.

 

See? Totally out of place, off topic vent. I need to go to bed, lol.

 

[AimeeM]

I have been on the other side of the fence, too. When DD attended the private school last year, we were suddenly immersed in a culture of serious wealth, and boy did it make my generally comfortable upper middle class life look like horse poo, lol. There we were, a "Catholic school is affordable" type of family, thrown into a 20K a year (plus fees!) private school world. We were one of very few families who received a small amount of aid to attend (the school was too new to have anything set up for aid, so it was more in the realm of the board cutting cost corners where they could for us, and a couple of contracting teachers offering a discounted student rate for DD). These were people who thought nothing of random cross country field trips. More than once we had to gently remind the admin that we needed more than a week or two notice for something like a very costly out of state, week long field trip.

DD has, somehow, managed to surround herself (even now that she's out of the school) with friends who are much wealthier than we are. I never would have know, though, because they are very unassuming and they do not flaunt their money even a little bit. DD's very best friend apparently lives in a huge mountain top home and I found out (not through them) that they are very wealthy (much self made money, and some older family money) - but golly, they are the nicest people ever. They frequently pick DD up and take her to the movies, they came over before we left for the holidays for dinner and were just incredibly laid back - complaining, like us, about the rising cost of this and that ;)

[Katy]

My kids wear or have worn Uggs, Underarmour, North face, Lululemon, etc.

 

I didn't realize that was snobby or gag-worthy. I reserve that designation for Louis Vuitton, Burberry, Coach, etc. :p

 

They don't own multiples, but their clothes wash up nicely and get handed down to friends in like new condition when outgrown, even after several washes. They've also been handed down brand name that looks new, even though I know it was worn quite a bit. There really is something to be said for quality and sales racks. Says this minimalist wannabe.

 

Wondering why Coach is in the same group as Vuitton or Burberry.  You can get Coach at TJ Maxx for 65% off.

[fairfarmhand]

 not because I can't afford those things, but because I don't value those things.

 

BINGO!

 

This is it. When your friends lives are consumed with "stuff" it is awkward to try to connect. There are wealthier people out there who would prefer to discuss books, movies, interesting news pieces, the Bible, ideas, etc. I suggest you try to find those people.

 

I think your problem's not about income. It's about not valuing the same things that these people do. If they can't think outside the "my kids have ballet, why don't your kids have ballet?" or "Let's talk about where we all like to go on vacation" (although those could be entertaining conversations, if the destinations were exotic and unusual. I'd love to talk to friends about international travel, and I think I could do it without jealousy, with many of my friends.) then are they really your "friends"?

 

In our group of friends, we make comparable money to most of our circle. However, because we invest heavily in our farm, don't care to buy electronics, prefer simpler lives than having multiple kids in multiple lessons and activities, and value frugality, we don't budget similarly to them. It's okay. I'm very comfortable with our choices and I don't feel that their decisions are a slam on ours.

[Janie Grace]

If you just want to compete socially (or maybe make those people feel guilty for spending more money than time with their families)  decide to make something a hobby that's not that expensive but that does require spending more time with your family than overconsumers can afford..  Buying used telemark skis, ski the hiking trails near your house, take lots of pictures.  Go backpacking in nice weather. Go fishing.  Learn crafts that take attention and precision.  Cook gourmet food from scratch and post it on instagram every night (even pasta with tomatoes, bacon, olive oil and parmesian looks pretty amazing if you put it in the right light).  Make a dessert every night too (usually sliced fruit and a square of chocolate here, it just takes a few minutes and is pretty and healthy).  Take pictures of the amazing things your kids are learning in homeschool.  Post about how happy you are that you are able to homeschool every time there's school violence on the news.

 

I need to strongly disagree with this advice. I think this kind of approach would only get you more ensnared in a misery-inducing comparison/envy trap... feeding thoughts of "well, they may be rich, but I'm a better mom and I'll show them so!" This is not a way to build friendships or deal with what you are feeling.

 

I live around a lot of wealthy people and I have had to come to realize that the issue is much bigger in my mind than theirs. They like me. They don't feel awkward that I don't have what they have. I'd advise you not to make this a bigger deal than it is. They probably want friendship as much as you do and don't care about your bank account as long as you connect in the important ways.

[Artichoke]

BINGO!

 

This is it. When your friends lives are consumed with "stuff" it is awkward to try to connect. There are wealthier people out there who would prefer to discuss books, movies, interesting news pieces, the Bible, ideas, etc. I suggest you try to find those people.

 

I think your problem's not about income. It's about not valuing the same things that these people do. If they can't think outside the "my kids have ballet, why don't your kids have ballet?" or "Let's talk about where we all like to go on vacation" (although those could be entertaining conversations, if the destinations were exotic and unusual. I'd love to talk to friends about international travel, and I think I could do it without jealousy, with many of my friends.)

 

In our group of friends, we make comparable money to most of our circle. However, because we invest heavily in our farm, don't care to buy electronics, prefer simpler lives than having multiple kids in multiple lessons and activities, and value frugality, we don't budget similarly to them. It's okay. I'm very comfortable with our choices and I don't feel that their decisions are a slam on ours.

Yep, agreeing here.

 

You can't tell a person's net worth by how much they spend.

 

OP, have you ever read The Millionaire Next Door? Not everyone who has money chooses to spend it on luxury items or vacations. You may be surprised to find that your friends aren't wealthy after all.

 

You also asked about those "rich" with poor friends. We're not "rich" but we are comfortable and have more money than many of our friends. We handle extra activities by inviting children's friends at our expense. A simple "we got it." is all it takes. We don't boast of long trips that we're taking or activities that dd gets to do. It may just get mentioned in passing or not at all. For organized activities we quietly and anonymously pay the organizers for others to attend when needed.

[fraidycat]

Wondering why Coach is in the same group as Vuitton or Burberry. You can get Coach at TJ Maxx for 65% off.

Total tongue-in-cheek comment for any of them.

 

I couldn't care one bit less what other people are buying unless they borrow money from me to do it!

 

You found a thrift store deal of the century, great! I'm happy you're happy!

 

Got a brand new Hermes scarf and LV handbag at priciest store in town, great! I'm happy you're happy!

 

I can't seem to work up the giveadamn to worry about other people's money.

[Catwoman]

A year ago I would have very proudly said that money caused no problems between me and my very best friend. Unfortunately that isn't true now, and I feel like I'm losing my best friend BECAUSE of money. Well, that isn't accurate... I feel like I'm losing her because of hurt feelings, somewhat caused by the difference between her income and ours. I'm not sure how many more "must be nice" comments, eye rolls after ASKING what we paid for something, or otherwise snarky comments regarding money I can take before I lose it. I had thought that perhaps she was just in a bad place emotionally during a financial rough patch, but it isn't blowing over and it's taking a serious toll on our friendship. While she doesn't mind our income when she needs help, otherwise it is quickly becoming a serious problem between us. She can gush about what she got for free, or on a great sale, but if I gush about something I got on sale, it's quickly pointed out, while she laughs, that my idea of a sale price isn't what she considers a good price or affordable. Somehow, these days, everything seems to turn into price discussions (even the Lemax villages my husband surprised me with, which he found for 50% off, and the shatterproof balls he bought for our tree, turned into a "you know, you could have found just FINE ornaments at the dollar tree - what a waste!") and I'm not sure how to fix it.

 

See? Totally out of place, off topic vent. I need to go to bed, lol.

It's not "hurt feelings" that are damaging your friendship; it is envy and resentment. If this woman was truly your best friend, she would be happy for your successes, not angry -- and if she is making snarky comments, she's angry.

 

I don't think she is a true friend. You shouldn't have to watch your words or try to phrase things delicately with your best friend. If you get something new, you should be able to be excited about it, not worried about what she will say. You are obviously not a big bragger, so I believe the problem rests with your friend and not with you. She wants you to envy her, but money and possessions seem to be her vision of success, and since you have more of it than she does, she is jealous and bitter. And that is not a friend.

[Catwoman]

Yep, agreeing here.

 

You can't tell a person's net worth by how much they spend. OP, have you ever read The Millionaire Next Door? Not everyone who has money chooses to spend it on luxury items or vacations. You may be surprised that your friends aren't wealthy after all.

I think people mistakenly get caught up in whether or not people "really" have a lot of money, when that shouldn't even be a factor. It doesn't matter if people live beautifully and can afford it or if those same people are up to their necks in debt to maintain their lifestyle. What does matter is what kind of people they are and whether or not you like them and have interests and values in common with them.

[Artichoke]

I think people mistakenly get caught up in whether or not people "really" have a lot of money, when that shouldn't even be a factor. It doesn't matter if people live beautifully and can afford it or if those same people are up to their necks in debt to maintain their lifestyle. What does matter is what kind of people they are and whether or not you like them and have interests and values in common with them.

Totally agreeing that money or lack of shouldn't determine a friendship. . My response was addressing the fact that OP felt uncomfortable because she felt her friends were "rich" based upon their talked about vacations and electronic gifts.

[AimeeM]

It's not "hurt feelings" that are damaging your friendship; it is envy and resentment. If this woman was truly your best friend, she would be happy for your successes, not angry -- and if she is making snarky comments, she's angry.

 

I don't think she is a true friend. You shouldn't have to watch your words or try to phrase things delicately with your best friend. If you get something new, you should be able to be excited about it, not worried about what she will say. You are obviously not a big bragger, so I believe the problem rests with your friend and not with you. She wants you to envy her, but money and possessions seem to be her vision of success, and since you have more of it than she does, she is jealous and bitter. And that is not a friend.

I desperately hope you aren't right, but my husband agrees with you.

She said once in passing that she envies "having enough"; her rough patch has been so bad lately that it's a struggle to put food on the table. She's said, in passing, that it makes her feel like "less" when she has to call and ask for help with groceries... no matter how many times I point out the many great things she does for ME, it never seems to be a balance for her. It feels like she considers our occasional loan or monetary gift to her, to have more value than the many gifts she gives me just by being there; the times she came to sit with me at the hospital until 11 pm when DS5 had his lung surgery; the way she, with a sputtering gas tank, drove 6 hours to be here when she heard I was in labor with my third child (she had moved temporarily). She seems to equate an equal friendship with being able to give back along the exact same means and that's... draining. 

It didn't used to be like this. 

[Catwoman]

I desperately hope you aren't right, but my husband agrees with you.

She said once in passing that she envies "having enough"; her rough patch has been so bad lately that it's a struggle to put food on the table. She's said, in passing, that it makes her feel like "less" when she has to call and ask for help with groceries... no matter how many times I point out the many great things she does for ME, it never seems to be a balance for her. It feels like she considers our occasional loan or monetary gift to her, to have more value than the many gifts she gives me just by being there; the times she came to sit with me at the hospital until 11 pm when DS5 had his lung surgery; the way she, with a sputtering gas tank, drove 6 hours to be here when she heard I was in labor with my third child (she had moved temporarily). She seems to equate an equal friendship with being able to give back along the exact same means and that's... draining.

It didn't used to be like this.

Don't give her any more money or offer to loan her money. If you want to help the family, invite them over for dinner or bake them some special treats.

 

I can understand why your friend would feel uncomfortable if money is actually changing hands. However, the problems are of her own making if she is asking you for loans. She can't have it both ways -- she can't resent you for being financially better off if she is also looking to you for financial assistance. It's entirely unfair to you.

 

Can you take money out of the equation?

[Catwoman]

Totally agreeing that money or lack of shouldn't determine a friendship. . My response was addressing the fact that OP felt uncomfortable because she felt her friends were "rich" based upon their talked about vacations and electronic gifts.

I agree.

 

The big factor is whether or not the friends are bragging about their vacations or expensive possessions, or if they are just making conversation. If the friends are bragging, that is obnoxious. If they are simply making conversation, the OP is the one with the issue that she needs to address. Either she can deal with her friends being wealthier than she is, or she can recognize that she is uncomfortable around them and try to find new friends whose interests are more in line with her own.

[Arcadia]

I desperately hope you aren't right, but my husband agrees with you.

She said once in passing that she envies "having enough"; her rough patch has been so bad lately that it's a struggle to put food on the table.

She could have situational depression due to financial hardship. She might feel that she can trust your friendship enough to borrow money yet at the same time feel upset and a little envious that she has to borrow.

 

I have a few friends who were suddenly unemployed and fall into depression. It can make someone sound bitter.

[AimeeM]

Don't give her any more money or offer to loan her money. If you want to help the family, invite them over for dinner or bake them some special treats.

 

I can understand why your friend would feel uncomfortable if money is actually changing hands. However, the problems are of her own making if she is asking you for loans. She can't have it both ways -- she can't resent you for being financially better off if she is also looking to you for financial assistance. It's entirely unfair to you.

 

Can you take money out of the equation?

I'll admit that I'm not sure I could say no when she needs money for food or electricity. We've been such good friends for so long that it would be pretty miserable for ME (that sounds selfish considering it is her going through it, not me) to think of her and her children going without heat and food. Generally when she needs grocery money, it's to buy groceries for longer periods of time than one dinner would help with.

 

I could try to take money out of the equation, but I'm afraid that during this time in her life, she's attaching price tags to most things. I wouldn't be able to talk about the neat sports camp DD is going to during the summer, because she would see the price tag; I wouldn't be able to share my excitement over going to my favorite restaurant later that night, or how thrilled I was to find that Nike wind suit for my nephew for half off at Macy's. I could just not talk about anything that costs money... but as you pointed out in your earlier reply, that would kill the friendship, because I would be constantly scrambling to ask myself if I should or shouldn't tell her x or y, because it cost money and it may offend her. It would thaw the friendship considerably. 

[AimeeM]

She could have situational depression due to financial hardship. She might feel that she can trust your friendship enough to borrow money yet at the same time feel upset and a little envious that she has to borrow.

 

I have a few friends who were suddenly unemployed and fall into depression. It can make someone sound bitter.

I have no doubt that she's depressed. 

[Lisa R.]

I'll admit that I'm not sure I could say no when she needs money for food or electricity. We've been such good friends for so long that it would be pretty miserable for ME (that sounds selfish considering it is her going through it, not me) to think of her and her children going without heat and food. Generally when she needs grocery money, it's to buy groceries for longer periods of time than one dinner would help with.

 

I could try to take money out of the equation, but I'm afraid that during this time in her life, she's attaching price tags to most things. I wouldn't be able to talk about the neat sports camp DD is going to during the summer, because she would see the price tag; I wouldn't be able to share my excitement over going to my favorite restaurant later that night, or how thrilled I was to find that Nike wind suit for my nephew for half off at Macy's. I could just not talk about anything that costs money... but as you pointed out in your earlier reply, that would kill the friendship, because I would be constantly scrambling to ask myself if I should or shouldn't tell her x or y, because it cost money and it may offend her. It would thaw the friendship considerably. 

Well, for someone that is struggling to pay for groceries would likely find it insensitive for a close friend to share about a favorite restaurant meal she enjoyed. I think the poor friend would be justified in this instance. Likewise, it would insensitive to tell a friend that can't pay her electric bill about a new clothing purchase--even if it was on sale. The restaurant and clothing news should be shared with a different friend. Easy solution. 

 

Being careful about what we say around a friend, even a close friend, should not be a hardship. It is simply consideration. 

 

Similarly, it would be insensitive for a slender person who still watches what she eats to complain about needing to lose five pounds to an overweight friend that struggles with her weight. The good metabolism/slender friend would be kind to share her (minor) food issues with someone in a similar situation. Her overweight friend would easily roll their eyes and wish she had that same "problem" of only needing to lost 5 pounds. The slow metabolism friend would actually be justified in her annoyance that someone mention such a thing to someone who struggles far more significantly in this area. It's a matter of sensitivity and appropriateness. 

 

(Perhaps you were writing quickly and didn't share good examples. I commend you on financially helping your friend in need. She does sound like a good friend to you, but she sounds very stressed as she struggles with basic needs.)

[Hunter's Moon]

I attend a church that puts me in a similar circumstance.

 

I think it helps that DH and I are still young and the those who are better off have a few years on us.

 

It is a tough spot to be in. I never want to say I can't afford something (not essentials, but workshops or trips) because I know someone will ask if they can cover the cost for me and that can get embarrassing after awhile.

[Aiden]

I'm in both positions most of the time--the "rich" friend to one group, and the "poor" friend to another.

 

When we spend time with my husband's work colleagues and their families, we're the poor family, partly because I don't work for pay and partly because we're not willing to sacrifice our other financial goals (avoid debt, save for a house, save for our daughter's college, etc) to give ourselves the phenomenal experiences that others prioritize. We live overseas, and my husband and his colleagues are well compensated, and many justifiably take advantage of those two conditions to get in as much travel as possible now, while it's less expensive than it will be when we're back in the States. Material possessions don't seem to be a big deal among this group, possibly because all of us can afford all we need and a lot of luxuries, but travel is the major expense that I notice others spending on and us foregoing. With this group of friends, I speak freely--we don't vacation together, and that's the main expense, so it's a little odd but not a big deal if I say that I'd love to do something but that our financial priorities are elsewhere, so it isn't in the budget. Meanwhile, I listen to their travel stories and start thinking about whether and how I can adjust our budget to make a trip to the same location work for us, or add it to the "places we'd like to go if possible once our other financial goals are accomplished" list.

 

My other group of friends, however, is mostly missionaries. They rely on support from people back home, and most of them watch every penny. There is the odd family that has very generous supporters, and those odd families go out to eat and go on vacations more frequently than we do, though typically to less expensive locales than our work friends, but most of my missionary friends watch every penny. Moreover, even if they could easily afford to pay US prices for a luxury, they usually can't afford the shipping charges to have it delivered from the US or the taxes to buy imported goods here, so they still have to do without. With this group, I try to be conscious of the things that aren't a big expense to me but are luxuries to them, and while I don't hide them, I try not to mention them ... unless I'm sharing :) Then I bring out the goodies and everyone enjoys them without hard feelings. There could easily be resentment toward me, as I've seen other missionaries experience toward other colleagues who flaunted their privileges and wealth while never sharing them, but because I saw that resentment early on in my overseas life, I've tried--and mostly succeeded, I think--to avoid creating it.

[Carrie12345]

I think people mistakenly get caught up in whether or not people "really" have a lot of money, when that shouldn't even be a factor. It doesn't matter if people live beautifully and can afford it or if those same people are up to their necks in debt to maintain their lifestyle. What does matter is what kind of people they are and whether or not you like them and have interests and values in common with them.

 

Man, I feel completely torn on this point.

On one hand, I completely agree that money shouldn't even be a factor.

On the other, I do feel being up to one's neck in debt to maintain their lifestyle DOES say a lot about the kind of people they are and highlights differences in interests and values.

 

(Not that I'm going to pretend I've never gone a bit nuts and then suffered through paying my stupid decisions off, lol.  I'm just sharing what went through my head while reading the above.)

[lllll]

..

[DawnM]

I'll admit that I'm not sure I could say no when she needs money for food or electricity. We've been such good friends for so long that it would be pretty miserable for ME (that sounds selfish considering it is her going through it, not me) to think of her and her children going without heat and food. Generally when she needs grocery money, it's to buy groceries for longer periods of time than one dinner would help with.

 

I could try to take money out of the equation, but I'm afraid that during this time in her life, she's attaching price tags to most things. I wouldn't be able to talk about the neat sports camp DD is going to during the summer, because she would see the price tag; I wouldn't be able to share my excitement over going to my favorite restaurant later that night, or how thrilled I was to find that Nike wind suit for my nephew for half off at Macy's. I could just not talk about anything that costs money... but as you pointed out in your earlier reply, that would kill the friendship, because I would be constantly scrambling to ask myself if I should or shouldn't tell her x or y, because it cost money and it may offend her. It would thaw the friendship considerably. 

 

 

I have a friend in this situation, but it is with her sister.  Her sister will call me and say, "Sally just bought a new car.  She didn't need one, and her nieces and nephew need X or Y and she goes out and buys a new car!"

 

The truth is, Sally's sister is in the situation she is in because of choices made a long time ago.  But now she is trapped in dead end job upon dead end job.  No insurance, no retirement, and often not enough to cover basic needs.

 

I have even helped Sally's sister out on a few occasions.  I have paid for minor things, sent her things, etc.... for example, her daughter was going to be going to prom and she wanted pictures but in the divorce she had lost the charger for her camera.  I ordered a charger off of Amazon for about $10.    Another time she really wanted to go see her mother who was dying.  I gave her air miles I had so that she could go.  

 

However, the most help I was able to offer came from something really not monetarily.  She had always wanted to do a training AA program at her local CC, but even the $2,000 year in tuition was more than she could afford.   After several years of prodding her to look into it anyway, I made a few calls and google searches.  I found out that she qualified for FREE tuition!  It was a simple thing for me, but she was paralyzed by her situation and couldn't see past it enough to do the research necessary.  

 

I am happy to report that she now has finished the 2 year degree program and has a career that allows her to be off of government subsidies and have health insurance and possibly some retirement.

 

Oh, and just so you know, I had been telling her to do this for almost 10 full years before she finally did it!

 

I am only telling this story to say that maybe there is a way you can help her to help herself.

[FaithManor]

I've been on both sides of the issue, not that we are rich now by any stretch, but with an income three times the median in this county, on the higher end of the earners around here. (This is a low income county so again we aren't rich, just comfortable middle class, and definitely not on the upper end of that.) The big issue is priorities. I've been the friend that couldn't afford much of anything, but hung out with people who had a LOT more than we did yet those friends were very laid back about it and our conversations ran the gamut of topics, art, literature, the local school board's antics, the flap down at AYSO soccer when one of the dads dropped an F Bomb on a coach, the recent GM plan closing, you name it. We didn't spend a lot of time talking about recent acquisitions or travels, though if they brought up a vacation or purchase, I was happy for them. They were just nice people who had great social skills.

 

Now on the other side, where we can afford some travel and other indulgences, and having moved to a different area than the one where we lived when money was tight and friends were great, we live in relative isolation. Oh, we go to church and such, but the difference is that though we don't own a lot of high priced stuff, we are judged for having a nicer house and for enjoying travel. We really never talk about our life to the locals because the tension is palpable when it comes to income disparity, but they do not withhold their disapproval of our decisions. I can talk about our Iceland trip here or my upcoming trip to France to visit my sister, again here on this board, but outside of discussing it with my parents and mil, it can't be talked about IRL in this community. Inevitably someone says, "I haven't seen P or M at all for two weeks. Is everything okay?" to which my mom or dad or brother will say, "They are in X." And then comes the scowl and the comments like, "Well aren't they just hoity toity!" and similar sentiments. Sigh....so we don't mention it, and we have only a couple of friends. They do not live in this community.

 

When we were on a tight budget, if invited somewhere that we couldn't afford to go, I always just said, "Oh, I'm sorry, we already have plans." That's true. I'd planned to vacuum that day! LOL. Another favorite was, "I just can't budget the extra time for that activity." I never mentioned finances. The interesting thing is that since we homeschooled, I think they thought we did so much school work with our kids that they never got a break! I probably used that last answer too much because occasionally someone would express gently that they hope our children at least got to have fun once in a while! Of course, what I did do was see to it that we invited these friends to playdates at the park or the beach....the great thing about the Great Lakes is that the annual park pass is dirt cheap for the state park system, and most city and county parks along the lakes are free. So, picnic and swim is always a great, virtually free activity that rich and poor can all enjoy together. We also invited the children of friends to go along to some of the free events for kids at the local colleges. We were able to find ways to have activities together without it breaking our bank. I am with other posters that do not like to have people offer to pay for you all the time. That was one reason that any and all excuses for why we could not do x, y, z were never financial ones. It neatly avoided that tension.

 

OP, I think that if you can find a way to let yourself off the hook without mentioning finances and just be happy for your friends that they can do or buy the things that bring them pleasure, that will be for the best. I wouldn't get judgy about whether or not they are in debt or not. That is the mantra of a lot of people "oh look, they have all of that stuff or that house or .... because they are up to their eyeballs in debt!" but it's simply not true. Yes, there are people who live beyond their means. But, not a huge amount. None of my well off friends have been in debt. They've had good income and great money management skills often times marrying a little later in life and having a bit saved before entering marriage, then working for a while before having children. That was the norm amongst my friends. Any student loans they had, they paid off before getting married. They all had nice retire savings before they said I do. Part of that was of course that they all went to trade school or college and landed excellent jobs as young twenty somethings. That really helps. The rest was luck...they'd never had medical emergencies where the bills just kept piling up, or chronic health issues, or periods of unemployment, etc. They simply experienced good fortune with wise money management. Most of the people I've known in my life who were in huge debt were lower income folks with significant medical bills, student loans, or both. Medical bills being he main kicker. So it's simply not true that most better off, upper middle class individuals are living beyond their means. Don't play into that judgment game.

 

I agree with Catwoman. The issue is not the money, it's common ground on other issues. Either you have it or you don't. Try to find the common ground.

[Mama Geek]

I talked to a really nice lady several years ago.  We were staying in an extended stay hotel because dh was working and we were staying with him.  The job was not long enough to get an apartment (it only lasted 4 months).  We were bringing in lots of money and living on very little.  This really nice lady ended up loosing her job and her house and her son lost his house and job because of major medical problems he was having.  He had just been cleared from his medical conditions and was starting a new job and the only thing they could afford was an extended stay.  She felt really bad about being poor enough that they had to live in a hotel and I talked to her some and said explained that we were living in a hotel because of good pay and work that was away from home.  We had a really nice chat and talked several times over the time we were there.  

 

We have friends and family on both ends of the financial spectrum.  We like them for who they are and try to be considerate on plans that we make to not stretch anyone to thin.