A year without God turns into atheism.........(article)

[Tsuga]

Your summary of his writings are not accurate reflections of his articles and books. They're simplified straw men. He didn't claim that because she opposed abortion (i.e. believed that an embryo was a life and therefore sacred) she did not care about fighting poverty. That's too simple (and doesn't make sense). Instead he claimed that because she opposed policies known to reduce poverty (ie, birth control), her focus was not on addressing poverty. I agree. She cared about promoting a particular theological concept concerning mortification, suffering, and its understood correlation with justification. Poverty plays into this concept. According to her, it's "beautiful."

 

Her focus was on easing suffering and she never said any differently.

 

I read his articles--based on those I would never dream of paying a penny for any of his books. That's true.

[LucyStoner]

I've never read anything by Hitchens on Mother Teresa.

 

I did however read Aroup Chatterjee's book and found the arguments compelling.

 

She was categorically opposed to opening a hospital for medical care there yet when she was sick she was cared for at the best Western hospitals. Nuns who have left there report disturbing things.

 

I don't believe she was a wholly awful person but I do believe that she functioned, to a degree and to the misfortune of many, as a poverty pimp of sorts. A way for people to feel better that someone was doing something for the poor.

 

Poverty is not beautiful. It doesn't make people morally superior. It doesn't do much of anything but crush people.

 

I have an unpopular opinion that charity is not enough. Charity doesn't change anything. And yeah, I have and do back that up with my own actions. Social change is what is more important and there are a great many of organizations doing that around the world.

[Brit29]

I've never read anything by Hitchens on Mother Teresa.

 

I did however read Aroup Chatterjee's book and found the arguments compelling.

 

She was categorically opposed to opening a hospital for medical care there yet when she was sick she was cared for at the best Western hospitals. Nuns who have left there report disturbing things.

 

I don't believe she was a wholly awful person but I do believe that she functioned, to a degree and to the misfortune of many, as a poverty pimp of sorts. A way for people to feel better that someone was doing something for the poor.

 

Poverty is not beautiful. It doesn't make people morally superior. It doesn't do much of anything but crush people.

 

I have an unpopular opinion that charity is not enough. Charity doesn't change anything. And yeah, I have and do back that up with my own actions. Social change is what is more important and there are a great many of organizations doing that around the world.

 

This is just fascinating to me. I never had any idea there was controversy surrounding Mother Theresa. I suppose I should have, looking back, but I didn't. 

[fraidycat]

I have an unpopular opinion that charity is not enough. Charity doesn't change anything. And yeah, I have and do back that up with my own actions. Social change is what is more important and there are a great many of organizations doing that around the world.

Please pardon my almost complete ignorance in this matter. I'm intrigued. Can you point me toward some resources or info on which organizations are the "good" (social change vs. charity) ones, or how to tell the difference. It is my kneejerk reaction to agree with your unpopular opinion, but truthfully this is not something I've put a lot of thought in, or focused on beyond the most superficial "charitable donations".

[Joanne]

Not all of us. I don't think belief or unbelief is a choice - I would say scripture points to it being a divine act. Superstition or habit is one things, it genuine faith? Not a choice. You can't will yourself into it (or out of it).

 

/my .02

 

Actually, I agree. Which is the main reason I gave up on being an Christian and Christianity.

[Chris in VA]

 

I have an unpopular opinion that charity is not enough. Charity doesn't change anything. And yeah, I have and do back that up with my own actions. Social change is what is more important and there are a great many of organizations doing that around the world.

Not that unpopular. It's very prominent in some areas of the Episcopal Church, for example. I've heard/am aware of many debates along the lines of the morality of charity vs social change/action, for instance. It seems to be a hot topic at our seminary locally.

 

I do agree, to some extent.

 

I think one of the problems is that social change takes time; some needs are immediate and cannot wait for "the wheel to turn." Perhaps a good dose of both charity that is a "handout" and charity that is social change based?

[Joanne]

Be fair.  "Certain threads" are being posted with thinly veiled agendas.

 

There is nothing "thinly veiled" or passive aggressive about this (or my similar) thread.

 

I was a Christian for over ****40**** years. My deconversion happened over the course of about 10 years, all of them on this board.

 

I enjoy discussing issues of spirituality, religion, and theology.

 

I find TWTM posters to be very intelligent and researched, and I value their discourse.

 

Of course the links I post reflect my viewpoint.

 

My kids are adults  and teens. I don't homeschool anymore. I don't worry about discipline, diapers, homeschool documentation, park days, homeschool coops. I don't knit, I am not gluten free. I haven't left here because I'm invested. I go back further than most current posters. This board has seen me through a crazy amount of life's challenges.

 

No agenda on my posts. Just a reflection of who and "where" I am. That has always been the case.

 

Years ago, it was staunch defense of at home mothering, staunch defense of the superiority of homeschooling, anti-spanking, fiscal conservative rants, vaccine rights, breastfeeding. I am not now, nor was I then a "one trick pony" but you are free to *focus* on these threads to the exclusion of the others and my history if you'd like.

 

[LucyStoner]

Please pardon my almost complete ignorance in this matter. I'm intrigued. Can you point me toward some resources or info on which organizations are the "good" (social change vs. charity) ones, or how to tell the difference. It is my kneejerk reaction to agree with your unpopular opinion, but truthfully this is not something I've put a lot of thought in, or focused on beyond the most superficial "charitable donations".

Books-

 

Anything by Linda Stout, especially Bridging the Class Divide.

 

The Power of Positive Deviance by the Sternins.

 

Uncharitable by Dan Pallotta.

 

I tend to focus on local, small organizations but I admire the work of the Gates Foundation tremendously. FareStart and University Behind Bars are others I think do a good job. Sisters of the Road. I could list a lot of places, but some would potentially compromise my privacy and others are very local. It's more about an approach than the organization's name. Housing first, meeting people where they are at, helping people while pressing for changes that will help even more people. Generalities, but it's out there and it works. M

 

I'm not opposed to direct aid (and in fact have managed and raised considerable funds to do just that) but direct aid can be given with an empowerment mindset rather than a charity mindset. A food bank which is set up like a grocery store where people can make a certain number of selections from a variety of choices rather than standing in line for a long time to be handed a box of rotting produce, rock hard bread and foods that might not work for their diets with the distinct attitude that beggars can't be choosers. Where recipients are welcomed as donors and volunteers (because some people can give some times but need help at other times). Simple, but powerful shifts. Habitat for humanity doesn't throw up a bunch of hovels and give them away. They build truly nice houses with decent amenities and they sell them to low income families. The family first invests their time in others' homes, then their own and they pay for it, building equity for themselves. Stuff like that.

[Carol in Cal.]

Thank you for your reply. :)

 

I still don't get it though. :p Of course she continued her work. What else would she do?

Rosie,

I think that the assumption is that the work was a difficult sacrifice, and that she was moved to it by her love of God and consequent love of other people, and that her faith in God provided a great deal of the strength to go on with it.  Hence if she had actually lost her faith, both her sense of obligation and her sustaining knowledge of the rightness of her actions before God might reasonably have been diminished to the point where she would switch to doing something far easier and more comfortable.

[Guest]

Binip, you stun me with your complete grasp and intelligent discourse. Bravo! I could read you all night.

[Trish]

It's a comfort to know we will all definitely get an answer on this.

[livetoread]

I have followed this pastor's career for awhile now, long before his year of atheism. He was a sort of rising star among the more liberal SDAs, and this whole thing has sent shock waves through the denomination.

 

I can assure any doubters that he was a True Christian, before he wasn't. As someone who has made the journey from SDA believer to atheist myself, I followed his year with much interest. Given the questions he was asking at the beginning of 2014 when he announced his project, I pretty much knew belief was over for him, but sometimes it takes awhile to stop the CPR and call it. It takes a lot of courage to live the process of losing your faith so publicly. Most of us do it off in a corner somewhere because we feel shame and deep doubt about it all.

 

He has recently said that he hopes to create a space where those who are exploring life on the fringes of theism and beyond can find community. I think this is a needed thing as, at least online, sometimes it can feel like the believers think you are sinful and the atheists think you are intellectually weak for having serious doubts about the existence of God but still trying to hang on. Losing your faith can take years and finding support during the process for whatever stage you are in would be nice.

[Jasperstone]

 

I don't believe in god, but I believe Mother Theresa took love and truth to another level with what she did.

 

 

I believe in God, but don't believe Mother Theresa took love and truth to another level with what she did. ;)

[Audrey]

 

 

I suspect the argument that he was never a Real Christian (by virtue of his sect or by virtue of his lack of faith) will be the most popular rationalization.

 

Taking the vast array of contradicting definitions into account, there is no such thing as a Real / True Christian.  That's just phrase designed to be a slightly less obnoxious way of saying :p "I'm better at this religious game than you." :p

[DawnM]

Yeah, that is a huge reason I am not a Calvinist. 

I have seen people leave the faith where I had once seen it in earnest, I had even seen missionaries leave the faith completely after preaching it and helping people come to Christ.

 

But this is not the thread for debating theological belief.

 

I will say that his journey to go without God for a year was already showing a huge leap away from the faith.

 

I can understand struggling and not being sure, but saying, "Ok, I reject God for one year while I think about it" isn't quite making sense to me.  If you believe fully this would not be an option.

 

I am tired so I am sure I am not communicating well.

 

 

It's newsworthy because religion is a subject about which people are interested in purchasing information. It's noteworthy because it puts some major chinks in some major theological arguments, namely the idea that the sheep know the shepherd's voice, and the shepherd won't abandon the sheep. The guy did this in good faith that God would be there when he got back.

 

I suspect the argument that he was never a Real Christian (by virtue of his sect or by virtue of his lack of faith) will be the most popular rationalization.

 

[albeto.]

And how many people did you teach to fish?

Irrelevant. I'm not the subject of this topic.

 

There are specifics in the links I provided if you're interested in learning something new. You may not agree with my opinion, and really that's perfectly fine, but the information is available for those interested.

 

I'm hesitant to address the rest of it because it's just so far removed from the OP. I'm happy to participate in another thread, however. Of course, I'm happy to address it here, too (I like bunny trails, I think they're the spice of forum life, but I think mine is a minority opinion at that).

 

[Teachin'Mine]

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/29/opinion/29martin.htm

[Catwoman]

So we're seriously bad-mouthing Mother Teresa now??? :svengo:

 

Who's next? :glare:

[hornblower]

So we're seriously bad-mouthing Mother Teresa now??? :svengo:

 

Who's next? :glare:

I think it's more that you're just hearing it now. The criticisms are old.

[LucyStoner]

So we're seriously bad-mouthing Mother Teresa now??? :svengo:

 

Who's next? :glare:

I think it's a little more nuanced than that.

[Catwoman]

I think it's more that you're just hearing it now. The criticisms are old.

There are always claims and criticisms against any famous person. I'm just not sure why it was necessary to bring them up on this thread.

 

Frankly, Mother Teresa did more to help others than any of us could ever hope to do in our lifetimes, so perhaps people might extend a bit of grace to her memory.

 

 

PS. Happy Birthday!!!! :hurray:

[Catwoman]

I think it's a little more nuanced than that.

Not from where I'm sitting.

[LucyStoner]

Not from where I'm sitting.

Have you read anything on the subject? Aroup Chatterjee's book is worth a read.

 

Plenty of people went there to work but left with a bad taste about the conditions and how people were treated.

 

Additionally, ample funds were raised, often from sketchy sources (dictators, Charles Keating), which would have allowed significant upgrades to the hospice and shelters but no such improvements have ever been made. She herself received top flight medical attention with the best doctors money can buy. Which is great, but why not use some of those hundreds of millions to improve the care people get at the hospice they run?

 

I wouldn't think you'd consider poverty a virtue in and of itself.

 

I don't doubt she was amazing in many ways but no human is above reproach and that's what she was, a human being. And there was more than a little bit of hero worship, cult of personality, rock star type deference to her. That's usually never a good thing.

[albeto.]

There are always claims and criticisms against any famous person. I'm just not sure why it was necessary to bring them up on this thread.

You're right about claims and criticisms against any famous person. People whose behavior is done in the public sphere catch the publics scrutiny as well as admiration. In this case, it was brought up in context to a broader issue. Things that get brought up sometimes catch attention. It happens.

 

Frankly, Mother Teresa did more to help others than any of us could ever hope to do in our lifetimes, so perhaps people might extend a bit of grace to her memory.

As more information comes to light, people are beginning to conclude her actions shouldn't be ignored for an overwhelming sense of nostalgia.

[LucyStoner]

Frankly, Mother Teresa did more to help others than any of us could ever hope to do in our lifetimes, so perhaps people might extend a bit of grace to her memory.

 

 

Giving people bread and holding their hands while they suffer is a good thing.

 

Only doing that, when you can do more, is not.

 

Charity is not enough, even when it has an iconic face.

[Χά�ων]

There are always claims and criticisms against any famous person. I'm just not sure why it was necessary to bring them up on this thread.

 

Frankly, Mother Teresa did more to help others than any of us could ever hope to do in our lifetimes, so perhaps people might extend a bit of grace to her memory.

 

 

PS. Happy Birthday!!!! :hurray:

To be honest, earlier this week was the first I had heard of this. I have been reading and am amazed and appalled at what I have learned and what I am still learning. I had no idea and had a similar reaction as what you seem to have. I encourage you to research the topic. Links have been provided so you do not have to dig through google searches. :)

[flyingiguana]

http://www.addictinginfo.org/2014/12/24/pastor-who-gave-up-religion-for-a-year-to-test-his-faith-says-he-might-not-go-back/

Was that the original article?  When I google for it, I get one hit that's a blank page and this one -- but this one has no comments.  So I wonder if the site's attempt to clear out the comments did something funny.

 

One thing I've found interesting in my life is that the people I've known who were quite religious who decided to become pastors ended up becoming both pastors AND atheists.  And that their take on it is that just about everyone studying to be a pastor is an atheist.  As in, after getting all the facts (at seminary) most people would have to become atheists.

 

I don't know if this is just a function of the particular denomination these people are in (around here, it's just about all ELCA) or the particular seminary.  Or if it's just that the small sample of people I know who have gone this route just want to believe that all pastors are atheists because that's how they personally turned out.

 

I'm also in the middle of reading Forged (Ehrman), which in itself is making me suspect a lot of people studying for the ministry must have to call into question everything they formerly knew about the Bible.

 

This isn't meant to offend or convince anyone.  Just an observation that some people might find interesting.

[SparklyUnicorn]

I think for a lot of people it is. If someone who previously has been religious, if the idea that there's not a god crept into their mind, they may have to make a conscience decision to go down that rabbit trail or to push it out. I don't think there is anything "magical" about it either. 

 

I wasn't very old when I knew this though.  That's the thing.  I didn't spend years and years and years being religious then follow a rabbit trail because of a thought that crept into my mind.  I pretty much never really believed it.  As a kid people tell you that you are supposed to believe stuff.  I went along with it like I might go along with believing in Santa Claus.  Until I was old enough to realize that it's impossible there is a man who drives a slay with flying reindeer and pops down chimneys to deliver gifts to everyone.  I wasn't all that old when I knew I didn't believe in a Santa Claus.  And nobody told me he wasn't real.  

 

 

 

[Χά�ων]

The one thing I do not understand is why people need religion to tell them helping others and being kind is the way they are supposed to act. I do not understand that at all.

 

I would even go so far as to say that it affects how I have raised my son. I never gave rules or told him how to behave. I worked with his natural empathy and let him decide for himself how to behave. He is a nicer person than I am truth be told.

[Heidi]

I cannot Not believe there is a God. It is the only thing in life that I am sure of. I try to imagine the possibility of there being no God and nothing makes sense.

[SparklyUnicorn]

I cannot Not believe there is a God. It is the only thing in life that I am sure of. I try to imagine the possibility of there being no God and nothing makes sense.

 

To me this is a respectful and believable thing to say.  I'm not going to tell you that you have chosen to believe.  You just believe and I believe you.  I don't like when people tell me I have chosen not to believe.  That makes no damn sense.  Especially when you consider I'm in the minority.  It's not always easy being in the minority.

[marbel]

<snip>

 

One thing I've found interesting in my life is that the people I've known who were quite religious who decided to become pastors ended up becoming both pastors AND atheists.  And that their take on it is that just about everyone studying to be a pastor is an atheist.  As in, after getting all the facts (at seminary) most people would have to become atheists.

 

<snip>

 

Wait a sec.  You mean you know people who have gone to seminary to become pastors, became atheists in seminary, but went ahead and became pastors anyway?   Like, everyone you know who has gone to seminary has done this? 

 

I am not doubting you or your experience or perception, just clarifying, because that makes no sense to me.

 

I can understand someone becoming an atheist through study.  (Well, sort of.)  But I can't imagine someone becoming an atheist in seminary and then going on to become a pastor.    How unethical.   How can they preach, pray for people, exhort people in their faith?  Their lives would be a complete lie.

 

My husband graduated from seminary in 2011 and is a part-time associate pastor now.  We are greatly involved in our seminary community.  There are occasionally people who leave because they realize they don't have the call to ministry they thought they did - maybe those people lost their faith, I don't know.  I would be stunned (and disgusted) to find out that any of the students I've been involved with and who have gone on to become pastors are atheists.  

 

But as the saying goes..."when you can fake sincerity, you've got it made."

 

Again, flyingiguana, I am not doubting you.  But your post did make my head spin a little.

 

ETA: Just to clarify, when I think "pastor" I think Christian, and ELCA (which was mentioned in the snipped part of the quoted post) is a Christian denomination.  But I suppose a person could be an atheist and a UU minister/pastor without an ethical problem, is that right?  And maybe others.  If I'm wrong feel free to correct me.  

 

[Rosie_0801]

 

 

How can they preach, pray for people, exhort people in their faith?  Their lives would be a complete lie.

 

Not if their desire to serve trumped their personal opinions, I suppose.

I could do all those things without lying, though I wouldn't because I know how much people would not appreciate the way I was misrepresenting myself. I know that it is not just important that something works, in a religious setting, but that it works in the right way.

[marbel]

Not if their desire to serve trumped their personal opinions, I suppose.

I could do all those things without lying, though I wouldn't because I know how much people would not appreciate the way I was misrepresenting myself. I know that it is not just important that something works, in a religious setting, but that it works in the right way.

Rosie, you are one of the most delightful people here so I don't want to argue with you (other than in the most friendly way).  But are you sure?

 

Could you really recite (for example) the Nicene Creed without it being just a meaningless bunch of words in your mouth?  Do you think it would be OK for a person to lead his/her congregation in the reading of that prayer if he or she didn't believe a word of it?   Do you think you could baptize an infant (or an adult, or any age in between) using the words "in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit" and exhort the parents and congregation to bringing the child up in the "nurture and admonition of the Lord" without feeling a bit like an imposter?   (I think these are pretty typical of most Christian churches, not just my own.)

 

Maybe you don't think of that as lying?  

 

There are other ways of serving people.  Social worker, perhaps? 

[albeto.]

Rosie, you are one of the most delightful people here so I don't want to argue with you (other than in the most friendly way).  But are you sure?

 

Could you really recite (for example) the Nicene Creed without it being just a meaningless bunch of words in your mouth?  Do you think it would be OK for a person to lead his/her congregation in the reading of that prayer if he or she didn't believe a word of it?   Do you think you could baptize an infant (or an adult, or any age in between) using the words "in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit" and exhort the parents and congregation to bringing the child up in the "nurture and admonition of the Lord" without feeling a bit like an imposter?   (I think these are pretty typical of most Christian churches, not just my own.)

 

Maybe you don't think of that as lying?  

 

There are other ways of serving people.  Social worker, perhaps? 

 

You might find the Clergy Project an interesting source to look through. Some people share their stories with the public, and you might find some insight to this.

[Rosie_0801]

Rosie, you are one of the most delightful people here so I don't want to argue with you (other than in the most friendly way).  But are you sure?

 

Could you really recite (for example) the Nicene Creed without it being just a meaningless bunch of words in your mouth?  Do you think it would be OK for a person to lead his/her congregation in the reading of that prayer if he or she didn't believe a word of it?   Do you think you could baptize an infant (or an adult, or any age in between) using the words "in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit" and exhort the parents and congregation to bringing the child up in the "nurture and admonition of the Lord" without feeling a bit like an imposter?   (I think these are pretty typical of most Christian churches, not just my own.)

 

Maybe you don't think of that as lying?  

 

There are other ways of serving people.  Social worker, perhaps? 

 

Of course I couldn't do all those things and mean them the way my hypothetical congregation would want me to mean them, and there are certainly more comfortable ways for atheists to serve their communities! But yeah, I could do those things without feeling like a hypocrite *from my own point of view.* (As I said, I wouldn't because I know in the context of a Christian community, my pov isn't the right one and my hypothetical congregation would be hurt when they found out I didn't mean it in the way they thought I did and should. Not to mention that Christianity isn't interesting enough for me to make a career out of it.) 

 

From *my* pov, if the Nicene Creed was what people needed to hear, then jolly good. There are good reasons for things like that. Since I believe one's spirituality is one's own responsibility, it makes no difference whether the preacher believes in the deity s/he is leading the prayer to. Of course I could baptise someone using those words. They are the words used and are believed by the people requesting the ceremony. And of course the deity in question should be approving of an official new worshipper! Then, what else should Christian parents be doing if not bringing their kids up to be good Christians? 

 

When I first joined our homeschool group, the topic of religion came up (which surprised me greatly, this being Australia and all!) One of the other women came bouncing up to me later and said something to the effect of "They said you're pagan. I'm the opposite to you, I'm Christian!" I sort of stuttered a bit, and said "er, not really, well, I guess from your point of view, yeah."

 

The differences look a lot bigger from your side than they do from mine. :)

[SparklyUnicorn]

I would guess the mod team agrees with those go complain about these type of threads. I posted about the Kenyan bishops and it was deleted and labeled pot stirring tho I really wanted to discuss the facts of what they said and I am a practicing faithful catholic. That doesn't mean I can't think critically about things like the bishops' claims regarding vaccination and the WHO.

 

I am baffled at what is and isn't allowed here. And what people think should and should not be.

 

Maybe it comes down to what gets too many complaints.  No clue. 

 

I wouldn't have complained about a topic like you mention.

[obsidian]

Or who complains about it. Or who posted it. Whatever. It's Infuriating. The snide mod remarks just add fuel to the fire

Hm. I very rarely post on controversial threads, but I often read them. I've noticed what seems to me to be a great improvement in forum moderation recently (last couple months or so). Is that just me? :p

[Murphy101]

A year without married life leads to... Being single?

 

A year without paying rent leads to... Eviction?

 

A year without ___ usually leads to not having (or having a lot less of) whatever in that ____.

 

No big news worthy surprise there.

[foxbridgeacademy]

NM 

 

[Guest]

The phrase, "...a RELATIONSHIP with God..." Drives me batty. Even in my Uber Serious days, I never understood how a person can say (feel, believe) they have a "personal relationship" with God. I have a personal relationship with Dh. How do I verify this? I talk to him and he talks to me. He raises eyebrows, or smiles, or knits his brows, or throws up his hands, or laughs out loud when we communicate. I can sit beside him. I can touch his back. I can make cookies and see that he enjoys them. I can feel the warm spot where he was lying in bed. I can tell he walked in the door without even seeing him because I recognize the sound of his footfalls. I continually get feedback that WE are in a personal relationship. So I never understood how someone can know,/feel/believe they have a personal relationship with God when there is no such feedback.

[JadeOrchidSong]

I've never read anything by Hitchens on Mother Teresa.

 

I did however read Aroup Chatterjee's book and found the arguments compelling.

 

She was categorically opposed to opening a hospital for medical care there yet when she was sick she was cared for at the best Western hospitals. Nuns who have left there report disturbing things.

 

I don't believe she was a wholly awful person but I do believe that she functioned, to a degree and to the misfortune of many, as a poverty pimp of sorts. A way for people to feel better that someone was doing something for the poor.

 

Poverty is not beautiful. It doesn't make people morally superior. It doesn't do much of anything but crush people.

 

I have an unpopular opinion that charity is not enough. Charity doesn't change anything. And yeah, I have and do back that up with my own actions. Social change is what is more important and there are a great many of organizations doing that around the world.

God gives different gifts to different people. Mother Teresa had the gift of charity. Others may have different gifts. She simply faithfully did her part. You can do your part. There is a place for everyone who wants to do good to the society.

[livetoread]

The phrase, "...a RELATIONSHIP with God..." Drives me batty. Even in my Uber Serious days, I never understood how a person can say (feel, believe) they have a "personal relationship" with God. I have a personal relationship with Dh. How do I verify this? I talk to him and he talks to me. He raises eyebrows, or smiles, or knits his brows, or throws up his hands, or laughs out loud when we communicate. I can sit beside him. I can touch his back. I can make cookies and see that he enjoys them. I can feel the warm spot where he was lying in bed. I can tell he walked in the door without even seeing him because I recognize the sound of his footfalls. I continually get feedback that WE are in a personal relationship. So I never understood how someone can know,/feel/believe they have a personal relationship with God when there is no such feedback.

The funny thing is, when Ryan blogged about feeling the absence of God, many believers told him belief isn't about feelings. When he blogged about the intellectual inconsistencies of belief, he was told that it is about a personal relationship with God and not theology. Whatever you are having serious doubts about, that's not what it is. But rest assured that your serious doubts are still your fault and not God's who is doing whatever he can to help you believe if you would just do "x" and not "y", or else "y" and not "x".

[mamaraby]

I can understand someone becoming an atheist through study. (Well, sort of.) But I can't imagine someone becoming an atheist in seminary and then going on to become a pastor. How unethical. How can they preach, pray for people, exhort people in their faith? Their lives would be a complete lie.

 

My husband graduated from seminary in 2011 and is a part-time associate pastor now. We are greatly involved in our seminary community. There are occasionally people who leave because they realize they don't have the call to ministry they thought they did - maybe those people lost their faith, I don't know. I would be stunned (and disgusted) to find out that any of the students I've been involved with and who have gone on to become pastors are atheists.

 

Again, flyingiguana, I am not doubting you. But your post did make my head spin a little.

 

I can't speak for the other poster, but ime it wasn't went to seminary/bible college, became atheist, and then pastor. It was went to seminary/bible college, became pastor, and then atheist. I think it happens far more often than you think.

 

I went to Moody and there are a number of my classmates who are atheists or who have left church behind altogether. Dh went to bible college and seminary and was a pastor for several years. Was he an atheist for at least some of that last year? I can't say for sure as it wasn't really a label he used at the time. Questioning or even agnostic? That's probably more likely.

 

He hadn't been a pastor for decades, but it was still a tough career switch. In spite of his BA and MA, he had to translate/sell his experience to even be considered. In the meantime, we had one child and another on the way while he was the sole breadwinner. What would you have had us to do?

 

Switching careers immediately is kinda impossible and in the mean time a body's gotta eat (and have a home). I think that's doubly true for those who become atheists after being in ministry for quite a long time. It's not responsible to leave one's family without a way to feed and clothe themselves. I'm willing to bet a case of diet coke that there are very few churches out there offering sufficient severance packages to pastors who can no longer believe and have to find a way out. Hence organizations like The Clergy Project.

 

And yes, it was all that studying that I did that led to me becoming an atheist, though I can understand how that seems counter-intuitive.

[Slartibartfast]

It's newsworthy because religion is a subject about which people are interested in purchasing information. It's noteworthy because it puts some major chinks in some major theological arguments, namely the idea that the sheep know the shepherd's voice, and the shepherd won't abandon the sheep. The guy did this in good faith that God would be there when he got back.

 

I suspect the argument that he was never a Real Christian (by virtue of his sect or by virtue of his lack of faith) will be the most popular rationalization.

 

Each Christian has their own personal relationship with Christ. Of *course* people will comment on the relationship he had.

 

He isn't less of a good person because he isn't a Christian. That doesn't impact his morals, his value as a human, or his intellect, choosing a different path is not a moral failing. I don't know if he was a Real Christian but I also don't think that matters and I don't think it is an insult when speaking about an atheist. A lot of people have questions or they have a moment when they falter, have a "crisis of faith." Which road you take doesn't impact your humanity, it is just a different path. Faith takes work sometimes, as does any relationship.

 

His decisions don't impact my faith in the slightest and says *nothing* about any theological arguments. I have a different personal relationship with Christ, just as any other person does.

 

Just because he isn't listening doesn't mean the Shepherd isn't speaking. It isn't a failure for Christianity that he chose a different path.

[Slartibartfast]

The phrase, "...a RELATIONSHIP with God..." Drives me batty. Even in my Uber Serious days, I never understood how a person can say (feel, believe) they have a "personal relationship" with God. I have a personal relationship with Dh. How do I verify this? I talk to him and he talks to me. He raises eyebrows, or smiles, or knits his brows, or throws up his hands, or laughs out loud when we communicate. I can sit beside him. I can touch his back. I can make cookies and see that he enjoys them. I can feel the warm spot where he was lying in bed. I can tell he walked in the door without even seeing him because I recognize the sound of his footfalls. I continually get feedback that WE are in a personal relationship. So I never understood how someone can know,/feel/believe they have a personal relationship with God when there is no such feedback.

 

 

Everyone has different needs, feelings, experiences, ideals. People look for different things and have different experiences with religion, that is what I mean by it.

 

I don't think every person is going to get the same thing out of religion, any religion. 

[marbel]

<snip>

He hadn't been a pastor for decades, but it was still a tough career switch. In spite of his BA and MA, he had to translate/sell his experience to even be considered. In the meantime, we had one child and another on the way while he was the sole breadwinner. What would you have had us to do?

 

<snip>

 

That would be a tough situation.  I'm sure it's hard - I'm not discounting that.  I have not known anyone in that exact position but I have known people who have had to leave jobs abruptly because of ethical issues - for example a person who worked for a manufacturing company which, it turns out, grossly misrepresented its products.  There is generally not severance pay for a person quitting over ethical issues, no matter what the industry.   It is a risk.

 

I don't mean to trivialize the difficulty; it probably sounds as if I am.   I do empathize.  It must be terrible.

 

 

I can't seem to get multi-quote to work; this is Martha's post:

 

 

 

A year without married life leads to... Being single?

 

A year without paying rent leads to... Eviction?

 

A year without ___ usually leads to not having (or having a lot less of) whatever in that ____.

 

No big news worthy surprise there.

 

Right.  What can a person expect if he or she decides to ignore someone, or act as if that person does not exist, for a year?   What did this pastor expect from God?  If I don't pick up my Bible, or pray, for a year, what should I expect?  (Rhetorical questions.)

[Audrey]

The one thing I do not understand is why people need religion to tell them helping others and being kind is the way they are supposed to act. I do not understand that at all.

 

I would even go so far as to say that it affects how I have raised my son. I never gave rules or told him how to behave. I worked with his natural empathy and let him decide for himself how to behave. He is a nicer person than I am truth be told.

 

People don't need religion to tell them that helping others and being kind is the way to behave.  However, religion does permeate most societies and that message is part of most major religions, so people within that society will get that message whether or not they, themselves, are religious.  There are other messages that religions convey within a society that get spread, as well.  This is just one of them.  Even if one is raised in a family without religion, there are the over-arching societal messages that influence everyone. 

[Dicentra]

That's what I think church and religious books, fellowship and ritual does, provide a sort of artificial feedback on that personal relationship - reinforces it in the absence of actual, verifiable feedback. And that's why I think it is interesting that in the absence of that feedback for a year, a 'natural' atheism emerges. Religion is cultural, and if you disrupt the cultural means of transmission, it's interesting to see what happens.

 

Please, no-one take offence at this post. This is just the way I see it; I recognise others see it differently.

 

This is thought-provoking, Sadie.  Thank you. :)

[Guest]

Everyone has different needs, feelings, experiences, ideals. People look for different things and have different experiences with religion, that is what I mean by it.

 

I don't think every person is going to get the same thing out of religion, any religion.

Okay but still...what does that actually mean? If a person knows/believes they have a personal relationship with God, to what do they point for verification? Sometimes, I have felt emotional while singing religious songs, or hearing a pastor speak, or reading scripture. But I have also had emotional experiences while watching Sleepless in Seattle, or reading how Harry Potter dug Dobby's grave by hand.

 

My mother is convinced that she has seen and heard all manner of kooky stuff. I assume this is how she supports her belief that she has this personal relationship. But then, does that mean people who seek the rational are incapable of "true" belief? If I was looking all over for my car keys, sat down on the couch in exasperation, only to feel something lumpy, only to discover the keys were right there under the cushion, I would laugh and say, "Ha! That's ironic! They are *right* here!" If this happened to my mom, she would believe God (or an angel) put the keys there where she would discover them, in answer to the prayers she was just uttering to find the keys.