Aspasia Posted October 4, 2014 Share Posted October 4, 2014 Now that I know, I feel kinda dumb that I didn't know before. I've had a lot of problems with one of dd's friends (who I've posted about here before), because this friend is mean to my little kids and is always mean to other neighbor kids when they're here. Friend seems to be possessive of dd, and that results in her meanness to anyone who threatens her position. All this time, I've been really frustrated with friend for her meanness, and never considered the possibility that dd would start being mean, too (duh). The thing is, dd has always been super sweet and had a very the-more-the-merrier kind of attitude. She just loves friends and loves everyone to be happy and feel good. Or so I thought. Our next door neighbors have been acting very stand-offish for the last couple months and their daughter (dd's age) hasn't been outside at all. At first, I thought maybe I was imagining the cold shoulder, but I finally went over today and talked to the mom about whether something had happened between the girls. She hesitated and then said, "I don't even know where to begin." Turns out my dd has said and done some very mean things to this child. She told her that her gift at dd's birthday party was the worst gift (it was one of three Barbies, so I know that wasn't true--she was just being mean). She told this girl that I said she couldn't play with her anymore because she's a bad influence. (I've said something similar before about the mean friend, because after dd plays with her, she's really mouthy with me and mean to her siblings, so I've told her that if that's how she's going to behave after playing with friend, she won't be allowed to play with her anymore. But I haven't said it about this kid. So again, it's like she was just trying to hurt this girl's feelings.) Neighbor mom and I talked for about an hour and it was just one thing after another. She has been keeping her daughter inside because she was tired of her coming home crying every single day, and my kid has been involved almost every time. I don't know what to do! I've witnessed lots of exclusionary behavior among all the girls in the neighborhood, and I call them out on it when i see it. I always follow that up with a long chat with dd. We talk a lot about how it would feel to be the girl on the other side. I'm always telling her that we don't have to like everybody but we do have to be kind to everybody. I talk to her about what makes a good friend and what makes a not-so-good friend. After incidents of unkindness, I talk to her about what she should do next time. Blah, blah, blah. We talk about this kind of stuff! I promise! But dd is kinda two-faced. In those conversations, she tells me what I want to hear, because she wants to please me. But then she turns around and does whatever she needs to do to please her little friends. She perceives the power structure in the neighborhood kid group and wants to be sure she associates with the powerful kids, even if that means selling out and doing things she knows she shouldn't do. What do I do? How do I convince this kid that social status isn't the most important thing in the world? That keeping mean friends happy isn't as important as being kind? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest submarines Posted October 4, 2014 Share Posted October 4, 2014 What is your DD's side of the story? How old is she? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean in Newcastle Posted October 4, 2014 Share Posted October 4, 2014 You will have to supervise all playdates. I had to do that with dd who was bullied by a mean girl and was starting to become one herself. I made sure that I was in the area - outside doing yard work or inside folding laundry etc. No playdates if I wasn't free to supervise while multi-tasking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PinkyandtheBrains. Posted October 4, 2014 Share Posted October 4, 2014 Agreeing with supervision for the foreseeable future. Time (with supervision) should curb the worst of it as she grows past this stage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trish Posted October 4, 2014 Share Posted October 4, 2014 Tell her she can't be friends with the mean girl anymore? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HSMWB Posted October 4, 2014 Share Posted October 4, 2014 This is with the 7 year old, right? I would say she can't play with neighbor kids anymore without direct supervision by you anymore. End of story. I would probably try to make an effort to cultivate friendships outside of the neighborhood - meet up with friends at park, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aspasia Posted October 4, 2014 Author Share Posted October 4, 2014 So, do I never let her play at anyone else's house? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean in Newcastle Posted October 4, 2014 Share Posted October 4, 2014 So, do I never let her play at anyone else's house? Not until she has the capacity to handle it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laurie4b Posted October 4, 2014 Share Posted October 4, 2014 So, do I never let her play at anyone else's house? I wonder if you could be honest with those other moms about the issue, and depending on what you are comfortable with, either ask for feedback after each visit (after the mom has talked with her dd), authorize the other mom to intervene, etc. I would definitely have a feedback loop. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harriet Vane Posted October 4, 2014 Share Posted October 4, 2014 I agree with Jean. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redsquirrel Posted October 4, 2014 Share Posted October 4, 2014 So, do I never let her play at anyone else's house? Well, how is it going so far, not so great right? It seems to me like her playing at houses and with these particular girls isn't working out so well. If you want to change the behavior change the environment. If you don't change something then nothing will change. This is a good indication that these kids are not ready to be together without some positive adult supervision. I would be concerned about her continued association with these other kids. They seem to have a pretty strong influence on her, changing her perception of what is acceptable and how she should treat people. They have driven another child to tears and her mother is keeping her indoors to avoid further association? That is pretty bad, honestly. I would spend some time with your daughter, making some beautiful cupcakes that she will give to the little girl who lives next door, along with a short letter of apology for her mean words. She can close the letter letting the girl know that in the future she will work harder to be a kind person, or at least a better neighbor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AmyontheFarm Posted October 4, 2014 Share Posted October 4, 2014 Nip it now. And I would stop all visits with the mean girl she is learning this from. I would also go next door and talk with Mom about having Mom and dd visits where both of you were together to get the two girls playing together again fully supervised. I think her being brave enough to tell you means she appreciated you and your child in the past. Offer a hand in friendship and see if you can both work together to rebuild that friendship. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
texasmama Posted October 4, 2014 Share Posted October 4, 2014 This is a bit of a different take, and I agree with the supervision of play dates until your dd shows maturity and good judgment and kindness. But since you talked to this mom for a very long time about specifics regarding how dd was mean to her dd and this is a mom that you seem to know and have a relationship with to some degree, I would get both dds and both moms in the same room and discuss it. That lets your dd know that her actions are known by all and that they are unacceptable. Your dd should also express an apology to the other girl. That is what I would do if I had a dd being mean to another girl like this to the point at which the other child's mother kept her inside from playing. I would then supervise closely all playdates with all children. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alicia64 Posted October 4, 2014 Share Posted October 4, 2014 As I was reading your post I was assuming you talking you were talking about an 11 or 12 year old or a teen. When I saw you were talking about a 7 year old I was surprised and then. . . happy. Happy for you . . . meaning. . . you can fix this at this age. Yes, control her playdates. She has way too much leeway for a kid this young. And if she has a friend who is a full-on bully that friendship needs to end. In my mind that's like letting her be friends w/ a kid who's abusive physically. Except in this case it's emotional. The situation is so bad that your neighbor is keeping her girl indoors. Things are really bad. It's time to take complete control -- in a positive way. She clearly can't handle the amount of freedom she's had. She may just be too sensitive for it. Meaning she's too easily pushed around by aggressive kids. Alley Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
myfunnybunch Posted October 4, 2014 Share Posted October 4, 2014 The good news is that the other mom told you. Now you know. I am sure that was SUPER hard for both of you. This is why children need parents, because sometimes they don't make the best choices on their own. You're a good momma, and you will see your dd through this. Think how much she will learn from you about how to love the people around us and how to have such confidence in herself that she won't need to worry about the power structure of the neighborhood girls. Those are lessons that will last her entire life. I agree with supervised play only for quite some time. My ds is a little prone to this kind of thinking, and repeated "You're better than that kind of thinking. The way to be cool is to build up the people around you. That creates a positive power circle," kind of talk is slowly changing the his mindset and the ensuing behavior. :grouphug: I think you're pretty brave for approaching the other mom and not dismissing her concerns. Good for you. Cat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ravin Posted October 4, 2014 Share Posted October 4, 2014 There would be consequences, if my kid did this, even at that age. I would not force an apology. I might, however, require some sort of reparation to the other little girl. I would cut off all unsupervised peer interaction and cut off interaction with the other bully-girl entirely. I would let that girl's mom know that her kid is being a bad influence. I will add that while I wouldn't force an apology, I would let my DD know that if she wants to have friends, she should probably start with making amends with the bullied little girl -under supervised conditions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elisabet1 Posted October 4, 2014 Share Posted October 4, 2014 Please take my advice for what it is. I am not trying to insult. But here is what I have learned.... Do not think it is just the influence of the other child and if you can just get your daughter to see that, all will be fine. Your daughter is the bully, no matter who she blames for it. First step to improving any situation like this is accepting responsibility, not blame others. So never give your daughter the out that she only did it because of the other child. Plus, no matter how great your daughter has been in front of you, it does not change how she was to this other girl behind your back. You had no idea this was coming until it happened, but it had already been going on. This means this was going on when you thought you daughter was just this outgoing nice person. I know as parents we want to believe and feel that our children are great. So, if something goes wrong, it is so much easier to accept and say "not my child, they got it from somewhere else." But somewhere, along the line, if you want to stop the behavior, you have to stop blaming the other child, the school, or some other influence and say "it doesn't matter where she learned it, she is still the one doing it so SHE needs to stop." While I do agree completely with removing bad influences, I also believe that it is extremely important to not let her hear you blame anyone else for her choices. Remember that saying our parents used to always say to us "if everyone else jumps off a cliff, will you do it too?" Well, this is a very true statement. If she jumps off a cliff, death and/or serious injury is not going to exempt her just because she says she only did it because her friends did it. She still did it. That is it for my advice. I think it is important. For the rest, I hope others can help you. I just know this one part for sure. Do not allow her to blame someone else. Do not allow her to hear your thoughts that someone else led her to do this. Unless she owns her behavior, she will never improve it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elisabet1 Posted October 4, 2014 Share Posted October 4, 2014 Also, I agree with no forced apologies. It just teaches to give fake apologies. It forces the victim to pretend the apology is real, and she will know. If she does not know, she will fall in to it. And people rarely ever feel sorry in the end when they have been forced to say they are sorry. They just feel they have done their time, so they don't need to feel guilt for their crime. It is better to reach her heart to get her to see what she has done, than to force fake behaviors that won't change the heart. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laurie4b Posted October 4, 2014 Share Posted October 4, 2014 I like the idea of some kind of reparation for the girl next door. If your dd is truly apologetic, I would have her apologize and say that she is sorry for the hurt she caused by her mean behavior. If she is not sorry, I would have her state that what she did was wrong. I wouldn't necessarily expect the other little girl to want to resume friendly relations. As suggested upthread, it seems one of the moms should be present at any of their interactions for a while. I totally agree with those who say separate from the mean girl. I wonder if the other mom is as much in the dark as you were. 7 is an age where you can fix this and thank goodness you're a mom who wants to rather than defending your dd. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
texasmama Posted October 4, 2014 Share Posted October 4, 2014 Is your dd sorry, OP? (I suspect she very well may be.) If so, it is not insincere to apologize. If she is not sorry or at all repentant, that is a different problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 5, 2014 Share Posted October 5, 2014 I haven't read the responses, but I just wanted to say I applaud you for actually listening to the neighbor without just blindly defending your dd. More parents should behave the way you did. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bettyandbob Posted October 5, 2014 Share Posted October 5, 2014 Stop play dates with the mean girl Stop play dates at all for a short time. Allow her to play in your yard only when you can supervise. When play dates begin again, you have to go. That means they won't happen often because you have younger dc. Tell her going on a play date without mom is a privilege. She is not ready for the privilege. Have her begin apologizing to children you know she has hurt (if the families involved will let her). My special needs son was bullied last year on his school bus by three boys who were younger than him--the boys were 7 at the time. Two of them wrote letters and made face to face apologies. It was very hard for my son to have these boys come to our house and try to speak to him (this is why I caution on whether the victim will allow you to apologize). However, when they did they saw the depth of terror they had caused in my son. It made a huge impression on the boys and I think the act of writing an apology AND delivering in person went a long way toward changing the bully behavior and attitude. ETA: the 7 yos were honestly shocked they had the ability to hurt anyone--it was clear they did not know what they had done until that point. Eventually, you will gradually back off from supervision. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean in Newcastle Posted October 5, 2014 Share Posted October 5, 2014 And OP, :grouphug: . She's young. You're on it. It will work out ok. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elisabet1 Posted October 5, 2014 Share Posted October 5, 2014 Oh..I wanted to add also that I think you are just absolutely wonderful that you want to fix this. Most parents would just say "not my kid." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
plansrme Posted October 5, 2014 Share Posted October 5, 2014 Stop play dates at all for a short time. I agree 100% with this. This also gives her friends time to forgive, and perhaps the girls (the nice girls, not the mean girl) can start anew in a few months. And then I would go with short, supervised, structured play dates--maybe the girls have a tea party in which you participate, or they make cookies with you in the kitchen. An hour later, everyone goes home. Structure is your friend until she unlearns some bad habits. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farrar Posted October 5, 2014 Share Posted October 5, 2014 I agree with no forced apologies, but I also believe in the power of apologies. I think apologies go wrong when a kid does something and before anything else the parent says, "Apologize now!" I think when it's prepared, when you talk about why, when you really build it to something, when it has to be more than, "Uh, sorry," then it becomes something bigger. I wouldn't require it exactly, but I would make the resumption of some privileges and trust dependent on it. Not the unsupervised playdates because I totally agree with being on top of that, but maybe something smaller. And I agree with reparations to go with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maize Posted October 5, 2014 Share Posted October 5, 2014 I am so sorry you are facing this, and glad you are willing to address it head on. I agree with no unsupervised play dates, and would keep her away entirely from the other mean girl. She is clearly not ready to interact with someone like that without picking up unhealthy patterns of behavior. I would sit down with your DD and talk about the serious implications of her unkindness--she needs to know that her actions have driven this neighbor girl to stay inside her house so that DD cannot keep hurting her. Then maybe DD can come up with some ideas herself to remedy the situation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arcadia Posted October 5, 2014 Share Posted October 5, 2014 So, do I never let her play at anyone else's house? You can if you are free to chaperone. It's hard for the host of the play date to be the one telling your daughter off. If your daughter "acts up" at a play date, can the host "kick her home" if you are not around? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrincessMommy Posted October 5, 2014 Share Posted October 5, 2014 Nip it now. And I would stop all visits with the mean girl she is learning this from. I would also go next door and talk with Mom about having Mom and dd visits where both of you were together to get the two girls playing together again fully supervised. I think her being brave enough to tell you means she appreciated you and your child in the past. Offer a hand in friendship and see if you can both work together to rebuild that friendship. I agree... How wonderful this mom went out on a limb and was honest with you. That takes guts. I'd probably bring her in on trying to help you supervise this and calling your dd out when she's being mean. I'm sure your heartbroken :grouphug: So sorry you have to go through this. I like the idea of talking to your dd about ideas to fix the problem. And, I'd keep her away from the bad influence. She's far too young to handle it on her own with such a strong personality pushing her. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DesertBlossom Posted October 5, 2014 Share Posted October 5, 2014 I would be inclined to very gently point out the natural consequence of her behavior. When you're not nice to friends, they don't want to play with you. (or, their moms won't let you play with them) Talk about what it means to be a good friend, and what kind of behaviors she would want her friends to exhibit. I would let that be the teacher. Hopefully there will be more opportunities for her to play nice with her friend again, but point out that it's possible that if she continues to act that way, she won't get to play with her friend ever again. I think it can be good for kids to realize that these aren't just mom's rules that she made up and enforces. But that these are real life lessons. A while back I overheard DS's friend tell him about a mutual friend of theirs and his "unfriendly behavior." DS got wide-eyed and said "Oh I would never do that!" I chuckled to myself to myself and was grateful for a (very gentle) real life opportunity to learn that when you're not nice, friends don't like you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elegantlion Posted October 5, 2014 Share Posted October 5, 2014 Seven is pretty young still, but you might read up on personalities a bit. She may have a strong choleric, type A personality, or she may be the people pleaser (you said she wanted to be friends with the right group and thought this was the way). I would not discuss the personality issue with her, but see if you can find tips for parenting her personality type - phrasing can be very important. It's not a way to pigeon-hole people or chalk everything up to personality, but it can give you some guidance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DesertBlossom Posted October 5, 2014 Share Posted October 5, 2014 Also, if you're comfortable with it, let the mom know that she can send your DD home if she's not playing nice and tell her that she's welcome to come back if she can play nicely. If she really likes playing with said friend, that will be motivation enough to improve her behavior. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aspasia Posted October 5, 2014 Author Share Posted October 5, 2014 Please take my advice for what it is. I am not trying to insult. But here is what I have learned.... Do not think it is just the influence of the other child and if you can just get your daughter to see that, all will be fine. Your daughter is the bully, no matter who she blames for it. First step to improving any situation like this is accepting responsibility, not blame others. So never give your daughter the out that she only did it because of the other child. Plus, no matter how great your daughter has been in front of you, it does not change how she was to this other girl behind your back. You had no idea this was coming until it happened, but it had already been going on. This means this was going on when you thought you daughter was just this outgoing nice person. I know as parents we want to believe and feel that our children are great. So, if something goes wrong, it is so much easier to accept and say "not my child, they got it from somewhere else." But somewhere, along the line, if you want to stop the behavior, you have to stop blaming the other child, the school, or some other influence and say "it doesn't matter where she learned it, she is still the one doing it so SHE needs to stop." While I do agree completely with removing bad influences, I also believe that it is extremely important to not let her hear you blame anyone else for her choices. Remember that saying our parents used to always say to us "if everyone else jumps off a cliff, will you do it too?" Well, this is a very true statement. If she jumps off a cliff, death and/or serious injury is not going to exempt her just because she says she only did it because her friends did it. She still did it. That is it for my advice. I think it is important. For the rest, I hope others can help you. I just know this one part for sure. Do not allow her to blame someone else. Do not allow her to hear your thoughts that someone else led her to do this. Unless she owns her behavior, she will never improve it. I definitely don't allow her to blame other kids. She has tried to blame her mean/mischievous friend for things before, by saying how badly friend wanted her to do something, and I always, always point out that it's always her choice. SHE is the one who does it in the end. There aren't any other victims besides the little girl next door. She seems to be the girl in the neighborhood who none of the children have really connected with, and I think that makes her more of a target. :( BUT...I was driving to the store tonight, after I wrote my first post, thinking about this issue. I did realize that this particular child is insanely sensitive. I remembered several specific instances where she was at our house and I actually witnessed her not getting her way, crying about it, and announcing that she was going home. So I know this girl equates not getting her way with people being mean to her. If she's going home crying and telling her mom that the other kids were mean, it's not always entirely accurate. I also remembered that this child's personality is rather...difficult. I've seen her react to the other kids with kind of snotty behavior: sticking her tongue out, spitting, taunting...that kind of thing. She does that when, again, they don't want to play whatever she wants to play. I really have seen this. I'm not making excuses for dd. Not at all. Because the things she has said to this girl are inexcusably cruel. When I talked to her tonight, the whole talk was about protecting people's feelings; people's feelings are more important than whether or not our friends think we're cool; be the kind of friend you want your friends to be to you; anyone who is mean WITH you, will eventually be mean TO you, so let's just change this pattern before it gets worse, etc. I talked to her a lot about how I know that deep down, she's a very sweet friend who likes everyone to feel good. I told her I would love to see that version of her again--I think ALL of her friends would love that version of her. And I told her it doesn't matter what she tells me, I just want her to be honest with herself. I said, "Ask yourself this question, and tell yourself the truth. I won't even know the answer. Ask yourself, 'Am I the very best friend I can be?'" So the talk with her was all about her...but when I talked to dh afterward, I did note that this other girl isn't entirely innocent.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean in Newcastle Posted October 5, 2014 Share Posted October 5, 2014 Supervision keeps both (or more) kids in line. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pronghorn Posted October 5, 2014 Share Posted October 5, 2014 I am the mom of a kid who may have been considered "insanely sensitive" at the age of seven. So my heart goes out to her mom. And I hope you will care enough to discuss sensitivity issues with your child. Perhaps you can talk about the challenges and role-play strategies for dealing with sensitive kids. And help your kid know that you value the sensitive kids too. They may be difficult at immature stages, but often they grow into beautifully empathetic kids like mine. Sensitivity is not necessarily a weakness. In some situations it is a strength. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caroline Posted October 5, 2014 Share Posted October 5, 2014 Well, now you are making excuses for your daughter. And this child is the only victim that you know about. I don't tell other parents when their kids are mean to my children. Why? Because just what happened in this post. You turned it around so that it is now the other girl's fault that your daughter was mean, or even that the whole thing was made up by this other girl. So what's the use? I definitely don't allow her to blame other kids. She has tried to blame her mean/mischievous friend for things before, by saying how badly friend wanted her to do something, and I always, always point out that it's always her choice. SHE is the one who does it in the end. There aren't any other victims besides the little girl next door. She seems to be the girl in the neighborhood who none of the children have really connected with, and I think that makes her more of a target. :( BUT...I was driving to the store tonight, after I wrote my first post, thinking about this issue. I did realize that this particular child is insanely sensitive. I remembered several specific instances where she was at our house and I actually witnessed her not getting her way, crying about it, and announcing that she was going home. So I know this girl equates not getting her way with people being mean to her. If she's going home crying and telling her mom that the other kids were mean, it's not always entirely accurate. I also remembered that this child's personality is rather...difficult. I've seen her react to the other kids with kind of snotty behavior: sticking her tongue out, spitting, taunting...that kind of thing. She does that when, again, they don't want to play whatever she wants to play. I really have seen this. I'm not making excuses for dd. Not at all. Because the things she has said to this girl are inexcusably cruel. When I talked to her tonight, the whole talk was about protecting people's feelings; people's feelings are more important than whether or not our friends think we're cool; be the kind of friend you want your friends to be to you; anyone who is mean WITH you, will eventually be mean TO you, so let's just change this pattern before it gets worse, etc. I talked to her a lot about how I know that deep down, she's a very sweet friend who likes everyone to feel good. I told her I would love to see that version of her again--I think ALL of her friends would love that version of her. And I told her it doesn't matter what she tells me, I just want her to be honest with herself. I said, "Ask yourself this question, and tell yourself the truth. I won't even know the answer. Ask yourself, 'Am I the very best friend I can be?'" So the talk with her was all about her...but when I talked to dh afterward, I did note that this other girl isn't entirely innocent.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farrar Posted October 5, 2014 Share Posted October 5, 2014 I don't think it's making excuses to look at the dynamics are her relationship with the neighbor or the bad influence. It would be nice if bullying situations were always cut and dried, but they usually have a little nuance. I think Bucolic was pretty up front in saying, she did these things, there will be consequences. Part of helping her learn not to bully may be finding relationships where she can succeed and this may not be a great one to practice with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amy g. Posted October 5, 2014 Share Posted October 5, 2014 I do agree that what you need to address is YOUR child's behavior, not the mean girl's, not the neighbor girl's. Your child did not behave in a way that aligns with your family's value system. It really doesn't matter what the other children did. In my house, there would be a long talk about how we treat people, even sensitive people, even, targets, even children who cry and stick their tongues out. I would tell her,"I do not trust you to behave when you are out of my sight, so you will have no play dates unless I am right there watching you and listening to every word exchanged." Then there would be a DRASTIC reduction in my child's social life. It would simply not be a good time for me to supervise a play date, so she will have to help me clean the kitchen instead of going to a friend's. I would make her earn back every social interaction privilege. I would spend this time while it wasn't convenient to supervise a play date to build my relationship with her. I'd read the book "The Hundred Dresses" together. I'd have some serious talks about bullying. I think that what your daughter did is COMPLETELY understandable and age-appropriate, but I would make sure it is a learning experience for her. I would treat it as though changing her behavior is the most important thing in the world, because for me, it would be. How could I feel good about any of the other things my children might achieve if they do not treat others with basic kindness and respect? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caroline Posted October 5, 2014 Share Posted October 5, 2014 I don't think it's making excuses to look at the dynamics are her relationship with the neighbor or the bad influence. It would be nice if bullying situations were always cut and dried, but they usually have a little nuance. I think Bucolic was pretty up front in saying, she did these things, there will be consequences. Part of helping her learn not to bully may be finding relationships where she can succeed and this may not be a great one to practice with. I don't think it is making excuses to study the relationship either. And I agree that this relationship is not a great one to practice with. But she is backpedaling. She is making excuses for her daughter's meanness--the other child is over sensitive, no one else likes the other child, the other girl lies to her mother. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lmrich Posted October 5, 2014 Share Posted October 5, 2014 You are a great mom! I am so impressed that you were able to listen to your neighbor and not defend or deny her words. You are also a great neighbor. You have time to fix this. Sometimes kids bully because they like to feel power or control. Can you give your daughter more control in the home (nothing crazy) but over some little some things like control what the family will have for dinner. If you stay pick out her clothes, it is time to stop. If she and you are ready, giving her a pet to take care of gives her a sense of power as well. (think fish or turtle - something that does not involve too much work or this backfires) This may not apply to your dd at all, but I thought I would throw it out there as a different reason why kids/adults bully. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reefgazer Posted October 5, 2014 Share Posted October 5, 2014 I agree that you'll need to closely supervise all future playdates for a while. But I think helping DD find new friends who aren't bullies themselves would be the fastest way to change her behavior. She wants to fit in with her current friends, right? Now that I know, I feel kinda dumb that I didn't know before. I've had a lot of problems with one of dd's friends (who I've posted about here before), because this friend is mean to my little kids and is always mean to other neighbor kids when they're here. Friend seems to be possessive of dd, and that results in her meanness to anyone who threatens her position. All this time, I've been really frustrated with friend for her meanness, and never considered the possibility that dd would start being mean, too (duh). The thing is, dd has always been super sweet and had a very the-more-the-merrier kind of attitude. She just loves friends and loves everyone to be happy and feel good. Or so I thought. Our next door neighbors have been acting very stand-offish for the last couple months and their daughter (dd's age) hasn't been outside at all. At first, I thought maybe I was imagining the cold shoulder, but I finally went over today and talked to the mom about whether something had happened between the girls. She hesitated and then said, "I don't even know where to begin." Turns out my dd has said and done some very mean things to this child. She told her that her gift at dd's birthday party was the worst gift (it was one of three Barbies, so I know that wasn't true--she was just being mean). She told this girl that I said she couldn't play with her anymore because she's a bad influence. (I've said something similar before about the mean friend, because after dd plays with her, she's really mouthy with me and mean to her siblings, so I've told her that if that's how she's going to behave after playing with friend, she won't be allowed to play with her anymore. But I haven't said it about this kid. So again, it's like she was just trying to hurt this girl's feelings.) Neighbor mom and I talked for about an hour and it was just one thing after another. She has been keeping her daughter inside because she was tired of her coming home crying every single day, and my kid has been involved almost every time. I don't know what to do! I've witnessed lots of exclusionary behavior among all the girls in the neighborhood, and I call them out on it when i see it. I always follow that up with a long chat with dd. We talk a lot about how it would feel to be the girl on the other side. I'm always telling her that we don't have to like everybody but we do have to be kind to everybody. I talk to her about what makes a good friend and what makes a not-so-good friend. After incidents of unkindness, I talk to her about what she should do next time. Blah, blah, blah. We talk about this kind of stuff! I promise! But dd is kinda two-faced. In those conversations, she tells me what I want to hear, because she wants to please me. But then she turns around and does whatever she needs to do to please her little friends. She perceives the power structure in the neighborhood kid group and wants to be sure she associates with the powerful kids, even if that means selling out and doing things she knows she shouldn't do. What do I do? How do I convince this kid that social status isn't the most important thing in the world? That keeping mean friends happy isn't as important as being kind? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kitten18 Posted October 5, 2014 Share Posted October 5, 2014 I don't think it's making excuses to look at the dynamics are her relationship with the neighbor or the bad influence. It would be nice if bullying situations were always cut and dried, but they usually have a little nuance. I think Bucolic was pretty up front in saying, she did these things, there will be consequences. Part of helping her learn not to bully may be finding relationships where she can succeed and this may not be a great one to practice with.I completely agree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amy g. Posted October 5, 2014 Share Posted October 5, 2014 The problem with finding new friends, cutting contact with the bully, and looking at the neighbor girls shortcomings are that they do nothing to actually solve the real problem. The bullying behavior might temporarily stop if you find new friends, but the underlying issue of her emulating her friend's values rather than yours is not addressed. Emulating friends with better values might make things seem better, but that is a termporary fix. Life is FULL of situations where we are tempted to be unkind. There will always be annoying people. There will always be people who seem like easy targets. Your daughter needs an internal change that helps her to do what she knows is right regardless of her friends, regardless of the situation, regardless of the temptation. That kind of permanent, fundamental change does not come quickly, and it will not be brought about by discussing what the other children have done wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anne in CA Posted October 5, 2014 Share Posted October 5, 2014 While in theory I do agree that the other mean girl is not the real problem, IME , sometimes there are people who make a bad combination when they mix. When a child is too young to judge between who is exciting to be around and who is toxic the parent should make the cut off for them. This seems like that sort of situation. I also agree that forced apologies are a bad idea, but I do think that OP's dd should do something to SHOW she is sorry to the hurt girl even if she doesn't use words. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pronghorn Posted October 5, 2014 Share Posted October 5, 2014 I think talking about how the other kids might be feeling is important, especially the target child. Perhaps even talk about how that child's mother must feel seeing her child so sad. And talking about how you would feel if someone was unkind to your child. Younger kids sometimes have trouble understanding that other people have feelings just like they do. The earlier you help your child think that through, the earlier she will learn kindness. Perhaps even talking about the other bullies might help, e.g. wondering why they are hurting someone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farrar Posted October 5, 2014 Share Posted October 5, 2014 Yes, it's a problem that she fell into this behavior so easily, was influenced by the friend, etc. But she's SEVEN! I think it's really normal at this age and as long as a parent is on it, addressing it in many of the ways suggested here, this is not going to be her lifelong identity. I sort if think the thread us mislabeled. She's not "a bully" she engaged in bullying. And there's some difference there. Also, again, seven! So young. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redsquirrel Posted October 5, 2014 Share Posted October 5, 2014 I honestly don't think the other child's 'sensitivity' matters at all. What if she weren't a sensitive kid? What if you heard or saw your child say those things when they happened? How would you respond? Would it be ok with you? If it isn't how you want your child to treat anyone, then how does her 'sensitivity' come into it? Put that aside and deal with your own kid. If it wasn't in line with how you think your child should act, then that is the issue. If my kid knows I don't allow him to play a certain type of video game, then he can't play it even if the other parent says it is allowed in their house. My kids know that and speak up. My rules and expectations don't end at the front door. The same with my expectations of his character. I expect my child to treat everyone with respect and kindness at all times, not just people who are 'typical' in their responses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farrar Posted October 5, 2014 Share Posted October 5, 2014 But it takes two to have a relationship. And both sides can end up entrenched in their own dynamics. I've seen cases where a kid was mean a couple of times, got in trouble, got watched more closely, improved their behavior, stopped being mean... but the other kid can't move on. Every time anything goes wrong, the other kid blames and cries and brings up how the kid took a toy unfairly a year ago or called a name (and a year ago would, for these girls in the OP be as kindergarteners for goodness sakes!) and it's all happening all over! Except, they're so little! Is the "mean" kid being a bully? Is the "sensitive" kid a victim? I don't think it's so cut and dried. It does seem like from what Bucolic said, her dd was much crueler, for a longer time. Consequences need to happen. But just coming down hard to her without understanding what led to this isn't going to help. She should think about what influences led to this, what friendship dynamics exacerbated it, what supervision is needed, what positive experiences helping might improve her dd's attitude, etc. etc. It can't *just* be, you're a bully, you're a horrible kid, you were terrible. I don't think that ever helped a kid turn things around. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amy g. Posted October 5, 2014 Share Posted October 5, 2014 No one said she was a horrible kid. I said it was understandable, age appropriate behavior. I have a 7 year old. I understand how young they are. Intentionally being mean to another human being is not nuanced in our family. It is unacceptable for any reason whatsoever. I would want to be sure that my child understood that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farrar Posted October 5, 2014 Share Posted October 5, 2014 No one said she was a horrible kid. I said it was understandable, age appropriate behavior. I have a 7 year old. I understand how young they are. Intentionally being mean to another human being is not nuanced in our family. It is unacceptable for any reason whatsoever. I would want to be sure that my child understood that. Intentionally being mean is not nuanced in our family either. It's completely non-negotiable. Totally, 100% agree she needs to understand that. What is nuanced is understanding what led a 7 yo to become intentionally mean. Why did that happen? And how can she be turned around? Because once that behavior has taken hold, I think at this age you absolutely have time to change it. But I don't think just saying, this is unacceptable will necessarily turn things around. You have to look for why, for ways for her to find success and see empathy in action, for her to learn the meaning of apologies and reparations, for her to figure out how to make her own good choices. I mean, I totally agree that she needs much closer supervision now, but what about in a couple of years? If the only thing that keeps her in line is a parent with an eagle eye, that's not a success in helping her learn to not bully. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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