Why Vaccines Matter

[TeacherZee]

As someone who has permanent health problems due to a childhood bout of Pertussis I cannot share this article to often. Vaccinating isn't just about protecting you it is also about protecting others.

[Guest]

I agree with you.

[Melissa in Australia]

:iagree:

[kiwik]

So do I but it is a contentious subject.

[PinkyandtheBrains.]

:iagree:

 

 

Sad we have to face new epidemics of preventable illnesses. :sad:

[Crimson Wife]

There is a middle ground, however, between the current CDC schedule and forgoing all vaccines. The schedule that most of us got as kids in the '70's and '80's was sufficient to provide "herd immunity" against the most serious diseases spread via casual contact but required far fewer total doses and spread them out more.

 

I recently had to get a copy of my immunization record to prove that I've been immunized against measles (my DH was commuting on BART during the time that a contagious person rode it). Here's what I got:

 

2 months: DTP & polio

15 months: MMR

18 months: DTP & polio

5 years: DTP & polio

13 years: MMR

 

ETA: booster shots as an adult of at least tetanus and I think the last one I got in '07 probably was a DTP.

 

That's it and that was the standard schedule back when I was a kid in the '80's. So why so many more shots on the CDC schedule today?

[OneStepAtATime]

There is a middle ground, however, between the current CDC schedule and forgoing all vaccines. The schedule that most of us got as kids in the '70's and '80's was sufficient to provide "herd immunity" against the most serious diseases spread via casual contact but required far fewer total doses and spread them out more.

 

I recently had to get a copy of my immunization record to prove that I've been immunized against measles (my DH was commuting on BART during the time that a contagious person rode it). Here's what I got:

 

2 months: DTP & polio

15 months: MMR

18 months: DTP & polio

5 years: DTP & polio

13 years: MMR

 

That's it and that was the standard schedule back when I was a kid in the '80's. So why so many more shots on the CDC schedule today?

I want to know, too.  What caused the change?  And was it medically based or ...?

 

And we do vaccinate here, FWIW, but I have come to realize that it is really important to study carefully and question the medical practices being foisted on me and my kids and DH.  Sometimes doctors make mistakes and sometimes they don't have your best interests at the top of their list.  I assume the people at the CDC can also fall into that category.

[kroe1]

In all fairness, pertussis in my former area of Arkansas seemed to be spread more by older, formerly immunized, but no longer immune, adults. Non-immunized children could also spread pertussis, obviously, but it was the adults who were getting a more chronic nagging cough who did not know they had the disease. Fortunately, there is a big push for immunizing adults with a booster here in Florida. Before my first grandson was born, I made all the adults in our family go get a booster.

[TeacherZee]

There is a middle ground, however, between the current CDC schedule and forgoing all vaccines. The schedule that most of us got as kids in the '70's and '80's was sufficient to provide "herd immunity" against the most serious diseases spread via casual contact but required far fewer total doses and spread them out more.

 

I recently had to get a copy of my immunization record to prove that I've been immunized against measles (my DH was commuting on BART during the time that a contagious person rode it). Here's what I got:

 

2 months: DTP & polio

15 months: MMR

18 months: DTP & polio

5 years: DTP & polio

13 years: MMR

 

That's it and that was the standard schedule back when I was a kid in the '80's. So why so many more shots on the CDC schedule today?

I'm not in the US, what are kids getting besides those?

[Laurie]

In all fairness, pertussis in my former area of Arkansas seemed to be spread more by older, formerly immunized, but no longer immune, adults. Non-immunized children could also spread pertussis, obviously, but it was the adults who were getting a more chronic nagging cough who did not know they had the disease. Fortunately, there is a big push for immunizing adults with a booster here in Florida. Before my first grandson was born, I made all the adults in our family go get a booster.

 

It's complicated.  People who have just been vaccinated, but are not showing symptoms, may be able to spread the disease to others.

http://www.nbcnews.com/health/cold-flu/whooping-cough-vaccine-may-not-halt-spread-illness-f2D11655363

 

 

 

This is an older article, so perhaps tests have improved:  http://www.nytimes.com/2007/01/22/health/22whoop.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

But it does make me wonder about false epidemics. 

 

[shawthorne44]

Rotovirus was one I saw.  My doc didn't recommend it, which is why I remember it. 

[goldberry]

I have no problem with families choosing a modified or extended schedule.  I have no problem with families that have had actual significant reactions, or have extenuating medical circumstances choosing to modify or even not vaccinate.

 

Families that choose to forgo ALL VACCINATIONS without having any extenuating circumstances...those are the families causing a problem.  Both for their own children and others.

 

I seldom get so cut-and-dry about something, but this is a serious subject.

[Cera]

There has also been a change from a health focused approach to vaccines to a monetary focus to vaccines (not saying all aren't produced with some intent to promote health but there is a rush to market and less necessity for newer vaccines in an effort to make money).

 

And as far as shopping while sick as mentioned upthread, I would kill to stay home when I am not feeling well.  Unfortunately many of us don't have that luxury.

[LisaKinVA]

I'm not in the US, what are kids getting besides those?

 

From birth to 6

 

Rotavirus (x3)

Pneumoccocal (x4)

HiB (x4)

Hepatitis A (x2)

Hepatitis B (x3)

MMR (x2)

Polio (x4)

Varicella (x2)

DTaP (x5)

Flu (annually)

 

From 7-18

 

TDap

Guardisil (HPV) (rec' at 10)

Menengitis (MCV) x2

Flu (annually)

 

I know I had an MMR booster again at 18 when I went to college, but that isn't on the site.  I think it may have been due to a Measles outbreak at the school... because there are a bunch that you *may* get under certain circumstances, but they aren't routine.  I do get a TDaP every 5-10 years as an adult.

 

ETA:  We've never had the flu vaccine in our family.   We haven't done HPV.  I did do the MCV.  I don't think my kids had the Rotavirus one, either, and I've heard that the MCV is being recommended for younger children now.

[goldberry]

And we do vaccinate here, FWIW, but I have come to realize that it is really important to study carefully and question the medical practices being foisted on me and my kids and DH.

 

Fully agree with this and with the PP who mentioned the financial motive becoming stronger.  It is too bad that it is leading people to reject all vaccinations rather than exercising their own critical thinking skills. 

[Crimson Wife]

I'm not in the US, what are kids getting besides those?

 

http://www.vaccines.gov/who_and_when/infants_to_teens/index.html

 

DTP at 2 mos., 4 mos., 6 mos., 15 mos., and 4 years.

MMR at 12 mos. and 4 years

Polio at 2 mos., 4 mos., 6 mos., and 4 years

 

Plus the following shots that were not part of the routine schedule in the '80's:

 

Hepatitis B at birth, 1 mo., 6 mos.

Rotavirus at 2 mos. and 4 mos.

Hib at 2 mos., 4 mos., and 12 mos.

Pcv at 2 mos., 4 mos., 6 mos., and 12 mos.

Varicella at 12 mos. and 4 years

Hepatitis A at 12 mos. and 18 mos.

Meningitis at 11 years and 18 years

HPV at 11 years

 

That is a LOT of shots to be giving so close to each other in very young children.

[shawthorne44]

I don't remember any doctor-recommended vaccines except for the flu vaccine and tetanus from when I was 10 years old to when I was pregnant.  I got the pneumonia vaccine on my own because it seemed like a good idea.  I got a bunch of the vaccines that they recommend when you travel to a tropical poor location.  But I never had a doc say, "Hey, have you had your whooping cough booster?"  If they'd have been on my radar, I would have gotten any and all boosters before getting pregnant.  Because I didn't like the idea of it happening DURING pregnancy, but I did it anyway.  

[kbutton]

There is a middle ground, however, between the current CDC schedule and forgoing all vaccines. The schedule that most of us got as kids in the '70's and '80's was sufficient to provide "herd immunity" against the most serious diseases spread via casual contact but required far fewer total doses and spread them out more.

 

I recently had to get a copy of my immunization record to prove that I've been immunized against measles (my DH was commuting on BART during the time that a contagious person rode it). Here's what I got:

 

2 months: DTP & polio

15 months: MMR

18 months: DTP & polio

5 years: DTP & polio

13 years: MMR

 

ETA: booster shots as an adult of at least tetanus and I think the last one I got in '07 probably was a DTP.

 

That's it and that was the standard schedule back when I was a kid in the '80's. So why so many more shots on the CDC schedule today?

 

They have vaccines for a wider variety of illness now, such as meningitis. I know a disabled adult that is a 9 mo. old developmentally (he's also completely deaf and has seizures) because he contracted meningitis as a toddler not long before the meningitis vaccine was developed. There were many times his parents weren't sure he would survive to adulthood at all. Nasty stuff.

 

[Elfknitter.#]

I'm not in the US, what are kids getting besides those?

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/schedules/

[Dory]

That's the exact vaccine that 4 individuals have ended up in the hospital from in my family.

[Crimson Wife]

They have vaccines for a wider variety of illness now, such as meningitis. I know a disabled adult that is a 9 mo. old developmentally (he's also completely deaf and has seizures) because he contracted meningitis as a toddler not long before the meningitis vaccine was developed. There were many times his parents weren't sure he would survive to adulthood at all. Nasty stuff.

 

 

But the meningitis vaccine isn't given until age 11 (my oldest got it at her last well child visit). So the fact that there is a vaccine available wouldn't prevent a toddler from getting the disease.

[TeacherZee]

They have vaccines for a wider variety of illness now, such as meningitis. I know a disabled adult that is a 9 mo. old developmentally (he's also completely deaf and has seizures) because he contracted meningitis as a toddler not long before the meningitis vaccine was developed. There were many times his parents weren't sure he would survive to adulthood at all. Nasty stuff.

 

See this is is my thinking, yes we didn't get vaccinated against all the illnesses because the vaccines didn't exist. I can understand those who use a delayed schedule but part of me also worries about a bit of a slippery slope. I figure the vaccines are done at those times for good reasons

[Alice]

There is a middle ground, however, between the current CDC schedule and forgoing all vaccines. The schedule that most of us got as kids in the '70's and '80's was sufficient to provide "herd immunity" against the most serious diseases spread via casual contact but required far fewer total doses and spread them out more.

 

I recently had to get a copy of my immunization record to prove that I've been immunized against measles (my DH was commuting on BART during the time that a contagious person rode it). Here's what I got:

 

2 months: DTP & polio

15 months: MMR

18 months: DTP & polio

5 years: DTP & polio

13 years: MMR

 

That's it and that was the standard schedule back when I was a kid in the '80's. So why so many more shots on the CDC schedule today?

 

The differences between the schedule then and the schedule now are several reasons: 

 

1) DTP was a whole-cell vaccine and as such much more immunogenic. We now give DTaP which causes l much less reactions than DTP but is less immunogenic. Therefore it requires more doses to generate a full immune response (the reason for the current recommendation for a 11 year old TdaP as well as the additional shots in the primary series. 

 

2) Knowledge evolves over time, the CDC and other bodies track immunity and if they evidence of immunity waning they may add the recommendation for additional boosters.

 

3) Two major diseases that we vaccinate against now are not on the list for then. One is Hemophilus influenza type B or Hib which causes meningitis in babies and young children and the other is Pneumococcus which also causes meningitis in babies ( both can also cause pneumonia and ear infections but the meningitis is the primary reason for the vaccine). Before 1985, when Hib began to be used in the standard vaccine schedule there were 12,000-20,000 cases a year of invasive Hib disease (that means sepsis or meningitis not just an ear infection) with over 500 deaths a year. That's all in kids less than the age of 3. In comparison, the number of cases of Hib meningitis reported in the past 5 years has been between 2-25. Doctors who I know who trained 10 years before me say that they remember pretty much always having one patient on the wards with Hib meningitis, it was just that common in big Children's Hospitals. How many cases have I seen? Two, in my 17 years of residency and practice. Prevnar is similar, although did not have as high a rate of disease. Those two additional series of shots alone add two shots at the 2, 4, 6 and 12 or 15 month visits. 

 

4) Some shots have been added that could be argued are more lifestyle/convenience. Varivax (chickenpox) is one of them. Chickenpox does and can cause more serious complications but the bottom line is that in this country it is offered just as much to keep kids in school and parents at work. Rotavirus/Rotateq is also more of a convenience vaccine in this country. Rarely do kids get dehydrated enough to be hospitalized and if they are, then they have access to care. Worldwide Rotavirus was estimated to be responsible for about 450,000 deaths in children under five, making it a life-saving vaccine in many countries. 

 

5) Hep B is the other vaccine that has added to the infant shot schedule. From an individual standpoint, Hep B is not likely to be transmitted to a baby if the Mom knows she is Hep B negative. However, Hep B in infants is much more likely to lead to chronic disease and not all babies are born to Moms who had good prenatal care and know their Hep B status. Hep B is more common than most people realize. 

 

Hepatitis B In the World

• 2 billion people have been infected (1 out of 3 people).
• 400 million people are chronically infected.
• 10-30 million will become infected each year.
• An estimated 1 million people die each year from hepatitis B and its complications.
• Approximately 2 people die each minute from hepatitis B.

Hepatitis B In the United States

• 12 million Americans have been infected (1 out of 20 people).
• More than one million people are chronically infected .
• Up to 40,000 new people will become infected each year.
• 5,000 people will die each year from hepatitis B and its complications.
• Approximately 1 health care worker dies each day from hepatitis B.

 

 

The bigger problem to me though is the basic argument that "what was ok for me is ok for my kids".  I don't know about you but I grew up when we rarely wore seatbelts. We all lay in the back of the station wagon and rolled around. Or I sat in the front seat between my parents at a young age with only a lapbelt protecting me. I never wore a bike helmet. We ate a lot of processed junk food. Back when my grandparents were kids penicillin wasn't available. My grandfather was one of 7 kids and only 2 survived childhood. Most died from childhood diseases that could easily be prevented or treated today. One burned to death when a spark from a fire got on her very flammable pajamas. 

A lot of things change, often for the better. Sometimes not. I hear all kinds of arguments about vaccines and people can have their own opinions even if I disagree but this attitude is the hardest for me to understand. Yes, the shot recommendations have changed. We've learned new things. We'll probably learn more. Some of the shots may go away (like smallpox which I'm just old enough to have gotten). Some new ones may get recommended. Maybe in 20 years the current crop of doctors will all look at what we are doing now the saw way we look at leeches (which are actually making a comeback). But it always surprises me that people are surprised that medicine, which is at least in part a science, changes. 

[mom31257]

So are we supposed to take every vaccine drug companies produce and the CDC recommends without question? Am I to truly believe these profit making companies have all our best interests at heart?

 

There are those who have bad reactions to vaccines. I know because my nephew is one of them. He is 20 and developmentally about age 3-4 because of his DPT shot when he was 4 months old. It caused severe epilepsy. The lot number had already had 2 deaths and 10 permanent disabilities but was still out on the market. Why should we submit ourselves to risks when the government and drug companies are that negligent?

 

 

He'll never drive a car, never marry, never have children, never live a normal life. He is the only child my sister has, and their family name ends with him.

[TeenagerMom]

We selectively vaccinate. Dtap & TDap is one we do because of Tetanus. The most recently vaccinated person in our household was 1 year post booster when she was diagnosed with Pertussis. The rest of us didn't get it. She contracted it from another vaccinated teenager and a week later, another vaccinated friend was diagnosed. It is not necessarily non-vaccinated children spreading communicable diseases. My needs a booster now, asthmatic child didn't even catch it. It's a crapshoot.

[TeacherZee]

Thank you for the information Alice and those who posted the schedule

[Alice]

But the meningitis vaccine isn't given until age 11 (my oldest got it at her last well child visit). So the fact that there is a vaccine available wouldn't prevent a toddler from getting the disease.

 

There are many different kinds of meningitis. The ones given to babies (Hib and Prevnar) are because that is when there is the highest incidence of disease. Meningococcal meningitis is different and is the one given beginning at age 11. 

[Farrar]

My understanding from what doctors have said to me is that we need the pertussis booster (which, IIRC, was added to tetanus shots) because the previous dose was shown to be less effective long term than previously believed.

 

Agreed with others that it's important to vax.  Doing it on a somewhat modified schedule seems fine to me (our pediatrician offered for us to, we didn't intend to, but ended up doing so slightly because when they were under the weather, she put some off for future visits).  Not doing so...  Well, I'm sure some people will come in here with lots of convincing sounding science that's been roundly dismissed and disproven by the actual scientific community.  It's not something I've found we can reason across lines with very well, to be honest, because truth and facts aren't allowed to enter into the discussion.  All the facts are relative to the people who don't vax.

[StaceyinLA]

The HIB is a meningitis vax for infants. It supposedly covers the strains they are more prone to in the first years. After a few years of age, it is moot because for older children those strains aren't a threat.

 

We always did delayed/selective here. My girls are doing the same with their children. 

 

I am more concerned, as far as epidemics, with older kids/adults whose vaccines are no longer effective. SO many people don't realize that they have to keep up with vaccines because the immunities aren't lifelong.  With pertussis, especially, the issue is that it can lose effectiveness as soon as a few years after the shot, but because it is lumped with tetanus, you can't get a booster any sooner than 10 years (after initial series of course).

 

All of the adults in our family had TDaP before the grandbabies were born in an attempt to offer as much protection as we could to the babies since in adults, pertussis just takes the form of bronchitis. I know a LOT of people who would never consider that bronchitis would make them a real risk to an infant. Sad, but true.

[shawthorne44]

There is a problem with getting a tetanus booster sooner than 10 years?  I've noticed that several doctors have a "If you don't remember when your last tetanus shot was, then you need another one"  This is when I go in for an injury.  

[Elisabet1]

The US has way more vaccinations than any where else in the world.  Plus, I had been getting my children the DTap or whatever version of DTP it is at that age, after 3 yrs old. But now, the only one available in this area is the embryo derived version. I refuse to be a part of any abortion. I will not use those shots. 

 

Even beyond those shots, most of the shots these days are not for serious illnesses where the illnesses are worse than the shots. The shots are medical treatments. They are chemicals being injected inside someone. There are risks, even though pro-vaccinators often like to ignore that. 

 

Originally, vaccinations were for serious things like small pox and polio. Now, they are there for everything from Rotavirus to Measles to Chicken Pox. The pharmaceuticals are for-profit businesses. They spend more money in congress now than the big tobaccos once did. 

[StaceyinLA]

I also don't think it's fair to say that because someone doesn't vaccinate, they aren't looking at the science. Overall the science for vaccines seems convincing, and maybe it is (although there are ample statistics showing a huge drop in many of those diseases BEFORE the vaccines were introduced, likely due to improved medical care), but many aren't willing to take the risks of side effects. Yes, the risks are small (smaller with some vaccines than others), but they are REAL. The CDC website lists them all, so it isn't tainted, biased information. I think everyone is entitled to make an informed choice based on what works for their family.

 

There is a quote in Dr. Sears' vaccine book (which is a great book by the way), and I don't know it exactly so I'm just paraphrasing, but the mom basically said that if she gave her child a vaccine and her child was permanently injured, she would have taken an active position in causing that damage to her child, whereas if she didn't vaccinate, and her child was affected by a disease, she wouldn't have been the direct cause of that. Obviously that was just what prompted her to make the decision she did after research, so I realize that not everyone will agree, but it is likely that other folks do agree with this position.

 

My position - I was willing to take the risks with the diseases we chose not to vaccinate against. I don't consider them to be worth the risks of the vaccines. I have read TONS over the years, and I would make the same decision today.

[StaceyinLA]

There is a problem with getting a tetanus booster sooner than 10 years?  I've noticed that several doctors have a "If you don't remember when your last tetanus shot was, then you need another one"  This is when I go in for an injury.  

 

 

That is a different shot. The one given when you have an injury is the immunoglobulin (pretty sure I don't have them backwards). It is active and works more immediately than the regular vaccine. For the tetanus in the vaccine itself, I read it is unable to be given sooner, which is why there is often a gap in protection for pertussis (often in children from 7-10 or 11 years, depending on when the pertussis loses effectiveness).

[heartosunshine]

From birth to 6

 

Rotavirus (x3)

Pneumoccocal (x4)

HiB (x4)

Hepatitis A (x2)

Hepatitis B (x3)

MMR (x2)

Polio (x4)

Varicella (x2)

DTaP (x5)

Flu (annually)

 

From 7-18

 

TDap

Guardisil (HPV) (rec' at 10)

Menengitis (MCV) x2

Flu (annually)

 

I know I had an MMR booster again at 18 when I went to college, but that isn't on the site.  I think it may have been due to a Measles outbreak at the school... because there are a bunch that you *may* get under certain circumstances, but they aren't routine.  I do get a TDaP every 5-10 years as an adult.

 

ETA:  We've never had the flu vaccine in our family.   We haven't done HPV.  I did do the MCV.  I don't think my kids had the Rotavirus one, either, and I've heard that the MCV is being recommended for younger children now.

 

 

I had an MMR booster when I went to college as well, but they said it was because I had my second MMR at 11 months old. Too early.

 

 

[StaceyinLA]

I had an MMR booster when I went to college as well, but they said it was because I had my second MMR at 11 months old. Too early.

 

 

 

They don't usually give the first MMR until after a year old, so you shouldn't have had a second at 11 months.

 

 

Just realized that maybe you meant years...

[Butter]

My understanding from what doctors have said to me is that we need the pertussis booster (which, IIRC, was added to tetanus shots) because the previous dose was shown to be less effective long term than previously believed.

 

Not exactly, but close.  We've actually known for a very, very long time that pertussis immunity wore off between 6 and 12 years old.  It was considered acceptable because pertussis is most dangerous to babies and vaccination rates were pretty good among babies (obviously in the last 15-20 years this has changed).  I recall once when I was working at the therapist office and had some down time, I paged through the nearest magazine.  It happened to be Parents.  There was a blurb about how they were working on a pertussis booster because immunity to the childhood series wanes between 6 and 12.  This was when I was between 17 and 20 (that's when I worked there) so 1995-1998 time range.  Now we have the Tdap booster for kids and recommendations for adults to get pertussis boosters with their tetanus shots as well.  It took a while to develop an older person vaccine for pertussis because of virulence.  For some reason pertussis has always been a "dangerous" shot (as in causes more reactions than average).  The development of acellular pertussis was huge for babies, but also eventually led to pertussis boosters for older kids/adults.  This is an example of why more shots are recommended today than in the past.  Developments, discoveries, etc.

[StaceyinLA]

Not exactly, but close.  We've actually known for a very, very long time that pertussis immunity wore off between 6 and 12 years old.  It was considered acceptable because pertussis is most dangerous to babies and vaccination rates were pretty good among babies (obviously in the last 15-20 years this has changed).  I recall once when I was working at the therapist office and had some down time, I paged through the nearest magazine.  It happened to be Parents.  There was a blurb about how they were working on a pertussis booster because immunity to the childhood series wanes between 6 and 12.  This was when I was between 17 and 20 (that's when I worked there) so 1995-1998 time range.  Now we have the Tdap booster for kids and recommendations for adults to get pertussis boosters with their tetanus shots as well.  It took a while to develop an older person vaccine for pertussis because of virulence.  For some reason pertussis has always been a "dangerous" shot (as in causes more reactions than average).  The development of acellular pertussis was huge for babies, but also eventually led to pertussis boosters for older kids/adults.  This is an example of why more shots are recommended today than in the past.  Developments, discoveries, etc.

 

 

Well, I think the problem with this is that they still have a waning period with the effectiveness, but they are stuck not being able to booster because it's lumped with the tetanus. There is still a gap in protection (a protection which I believe is only about 70% to begin with).

 

I realize it would mean more shots, but I think for the long term, if pertussis vaccination is going to be at its peak effectiveness, they need to pull it out of the DTaP and have a pertussis only vaccine.

 

We didn't vaccinate for pertussis because my dd had a severe reaction to the DTP (before acellular was introduced). My kids had Td only. It just seems like if they can take out the Td and create a vax, they could make one just for pertussis.

[Butter]

There is a problem with getting a tetanus booster sooner than 10 years?  I've noticed that several doctors have a "If you don't remember when your last tetanus shot was, then you need another one"  This is when I go in for an injury.  

 

No there isn't.  Even if you can come up with a specific date you had a tetanus shot when in the ER with an injury, if it's more than 5-7 years ago, they are going to give you another shot.  It won't hurt you if it is tetanus only (whether the tig or the regular vaccine is given will vary - some places will give you the Tdap, particularly if you know when your last tetanus booster was, because, like with babies/well visits, it's a captive audience).  Now, if it has pertussis in it, it's a little different.  For example, for school my son needed 4 DPT, DT, DTaP, or Tdap in any combination.  He's had 3.  His ped will not give him another Tdap for a minimum of 5 years (she said higher risk of reaction due to the pertussis) so she has to write an annual note saying it would be medically dangerous for him to have another shot of one of those at this time (technically, he could have the DT and be "up to date" according to the school, but the ped feels that would be silly and isn't a fan of schools playing doctor with certain requirements).

[Alice]

There is a problem with getting a tetanus booster sooner than 10 years?  I've noticed that several doctors have a "If you don't remember when your last tetanus shot was, then you need another one"  This is when I go in for an injury.  

 

 

That is a different shot. The one given when you have an injury is the immunoglobulin (pretty sure I don't have them backwards). It is active and works more immediately than the regular vaccine. For the tetanus in the vaccine itself, I read it is unable to be given sooner, which is why there is often a gap in protection for pertussis (often in children from 7-10 or 11 years, depending on when the pertussis loses effectiveness).

 

You can get a tetanus booster 5-10 years after your last tetanus. If you have a dirty wound the recommendation is to get one if it's been more than 5 years. You can get them closer together if you have to (someone traveling overseas who will be gone for many years or a pertussis outbreak in the community) it just makes your arm more sore and is more likely to cause a mild reaction (aches, fever, etc). The recommendation currently for pregnant women is to get a TdaP with every pregnancy, and they are being given several years apart. 

 

Tetanus immunoglobin is rarely if ever given. You wouldn't give it for a dirty wound. Immunoglobulin in general is more of a risk than vaccines since it's a blood-product and it's much more expensive. Immunoglobulin is typically given in cases when an immunocompromised person is known to be exposed to a disease or when someone isn't vaccinated ahead of time (rabies immunoglobulin, or varicella immunoglobulin for a person with cancer exposed to chickenpox). 

[PinkyandtheBrains.]

I also don't think it's fair to say that because someone doesn't vaccinate, they aren't looking at the science. Overall the science for vaccines seems convincing, and maybe it is (although there are ample statistics showing a huge drop in many of those diseases BEFORE the vaccines were introduced, likely due to improved medical care), but many aren't willing to take the risks of side effects. Yes, the risks are small (smaller with some vaccines than others), but they are REAL. The CDC website lists them all, so it isn't tainted, biased information. I think everyone is entitled to make an informed choice based on what works for their family.

 

There is a quote in Dr. Sears' vaccine book (which is a great book by the way), and I don't know it exactly so I'm just paraphrasing, but the mom basically said that if she gave her child a vaccine and her child was permanently injured, she would have taken an active position in causing that damage to her child, whereas if she didn't vaccinate, and her child was affected by a disease, she wouldn't have been the direct cause of that. Obviously that was just what prompted her to make the decision she did after research, so I realize that not everyone will agree, but it is likely that other folks do agree with this position.

 

My position - I was willing to take the risks with the diseases we chose not to vaccinate against. I don't consider them to be worth the risks of the vaccines. I have read TONS over the years, and I would make the same decision today.

 

Anecdotally, not from hard numbers and facts and "stuff".

 

Listening to my anti-vax friends, they aren't looking at the science. They've been pulled into many of the pseudoscience websites, false autism scares, and other things.  Does this mean that everyone who chooses not to vaccinate didn't look at the science? No. But I am finding it more common than I anticipated among homeschoolers who I would expect to value good research.

 

 

This is my own personal observation, it's not a scientific study nor should it be misconstrued as fact.  I find it scary. 

 

Both my children are fully vaccinated with all "required for school" vaccines.  They get to choose when they are 13+ if they want to get the Gardassil vaccine. The discussion fits in nicely with human reproduction education.  My younger son was on a delayed schedule since some of the vaccines gave him a mild reaction (high fever).

 

We have had the flu vaccine before, but I am less urgent about it since it only has about a 60% (?) effectiveness rating. I personally can not get the flu vaccine because of allergy. There is a new flu vaccine made without egg but it was impossible to find in my area, if I can find it this coming year I'll likely get it.  Flu hit me hard because of other health issues.

 

 

 

[La Condessa]

Just anecdotal evidence, but I personally know of two babies that died suddenly of unknown causes the night after being vaccinated. (Not SIDS) I did decide to vaccinate my kids, but I deliberated long and hard about it.

[Saddlemomma]

I want to know, too.  What caused the change?  And was it medically based or ...?

 

And we do vaccinate here, FWIW, but I have come to realize that it is really important to study carefully and question the medical practices being foisted on me and my kids and DH.  Sometimes doctors make mistakes and sometimes they don't have your best interests at the top of their list.  I assume the people at the CDC can also fall into that category.

 

Another issue is the Pharmaceutical industry. They are in it for the money.  There are big bucks to be made in requiring certain vaccines and drugs. I'm not saying all are bad, but there are instances where I feel we've been fed misinformation for the sake of the almighty dollar. 

 

Let's take statins for example.  I've done some research on cholesterol, blood pressure, and such.  Several doctors believe that we are pushing artificially low cholesterol levels to benefit pharmaceutical companies.  Our cells and arteries need cholesterol to maintain their flexibility.  If you check, each year the levels required get lower and lower (and I'm talking about the so-called "bad" cholesterol).  It's getting to the point where everyone is going to be required to be on statins.  For example here's one article that sheds some light on cholesterol: http://www.healthy.net/Health/Article/Cholesterol_tests/2750

 

My father died at 59 with his 4th heart attack.  Since the age of 42 he had been on statins and told his cholesterol was doing well.  In fact, his cholesterol may have been so artificially low, it may have caused hardening of the arteries and actually contributed to his death.  Am I absolutely sure of this? No, but several other things I've read suggest that when we starve the body of cholesterol, it can cause the same symptoms and worse than those we are treating people for in the first place.  Here's another more scientific article with cited sources: http://diaryofalegaldrugdealer.com/the-great-cholesterol-myth/   Yet another one: http://experiencelife.com/article/cholesterol-reconsidered/  These are just relative to statins, but when you involve profits to big pharma, you need to do due diligence and question what is really the impetus for these drugs and vaccines and what is in them. 

 

I'm not anti-drug  (legal drugs anyway) or anti-vaccination. For the most part, we also vaccinate.  However, we also have a history of serious allergies with some vaccinations.  Therefore we question.

 

My mother was a surgical RN for 28 years.   Because of the stories she relayed each night after work at the dinner table, I've learned to question, question, question and research! In fact, I've had doctors ask me before if I was a nurse because of all my questions. The point is that we are our own best advocates.  We do actually know our bodies and how they normally work better than our doctors.  We do not arrive in this world as a standard model like a Buick.  Each body has its own idiosynchrasies. We all react differently to different chemicals and plant bases.  Therefore, we must really research a vaccine, be our own advocates, and judge the potential risks before just blindly following recommendations.

[barnwife]

See this is is my thinking, yes we didn't get vaccinated against all the illnesses because the vaccines didn't exist. I can understand those who use a delayed schedule but part of me also worries about a bit of a slippery slope. I figure the vaccines are done at those times for good reasons

Actually, the vaccines are given at those times to make it easy. They are connected to well-child visits. Nothing more fancy than that. The medical world knows that were that not the case, many more parents wouldn't vaccinate (solely because they'd have to make yet another trip to the doctor to have it done).

 

Also, any vaccine given before 1 year needs a booster after a year. Your response to vaccines isn't completely mature (not sure if that's the right word) until then. Basically, at age 1 your body starts responding better to vaccines.

[kiana]

(although there are ample statistics showing a huge drop in many of those diseases BEFORE the vaccines were introduced, likely due to improved medical care)

 

FTR, I investigated these statistics a while back. It is common to claim that they were vanishing on their own, but virtually every site I've found making this claim has plotted the mortality rate rather than the incidence rate, or occasionally used some data which has been cherry-picked, to say the least. It is certainly true that these diseases were becoming fatal far less often than before with improved health care, but plotting the *mortality* rate tells us nothing at all about whether the disease itself was vanishing. Plotting the incidence of *disease* gives a far different story.

 

I'm linking an anti-vaccine site to illustrate the kind of deceptive charts used: http://childhealthsafety.wordpress.com/graphs/

[magnificent_baby]

They don't usually give the first MMR until after a year old, so you shouldn't have had a second at 11 months.

 

 

Just realized that maybe you meant years...

 

She may have meant years, yes. However, my first MMR was at 10 months and my second at 12 years. Since mine were not given according to my university's guidelines (after age 1 and at least 30 days apart), I had to prove immunity through a titer. Thankfully it worked so I didn't have repeat the series. Anyway, it's possible she did receive them that early. 

[Elisabet1]

Anecdotally, not from hard numbers and facts and "stuff".

 

Listening to my anti-vax friends, they aren't looking at the science. They've been pulled into many of the pseudoscience websites, false autism scares, and other things.  Does this mean that everyone who chooses not to vaccinate didn't look at the science? No. But I am finding it more common than I anticipated among homeschoolers who I would expect to value good research.

 

 

This is my own personal observation, it's not a scientific study nor should it be misconstrued as fact.  I find it scary. 

 

Both my children are fully vaccinated with all "required for school" vaccines.  They get to choose when they are 13+ if they want to get the Gardassil vaccine. The discussion fits in nicely with human reproduction education.  My younger son was on a delayed schedule since some of the vaccines gave him a mild reaction (high fever).

 

We have had the flu vaccine before, but I am less urgent about it since it only has about a 60% (?) effectiveness rating. I personally can not get the flu vaccine because of allergy. There is a new flu vaccine made without egg but it was impossible to find in my area, if I can find it this coming year I'll likely get it.  Flu hit me hard because of other health issues.

I have done extensive research. And I have looked over the sites directly from the pharmaceuticals and even the inserts they provide. I actually read up on what each of the chemicals are, and embryos. I was once an embryo. Each one of my children were embryos.  I also researched each illness that each shot is supposed to protect against, and also, how effective the shots are. And what risks there are associated with each chemical in the shots, and so on. I made my decision based on science. 

[magnificent_baby]

No there isn't.  Even if you can come up with a specific date you had a tetanus shot when in the ER with an injury, if it's more than 5-7 years ago, they are going to give you another shot.  It won't hurt you if it is tetanus only (whether the tig or the regular vaccine is given will vary - some places will give you the Tdap, particularly if you know when your last tetanus booster was, because, like with babies/well visits, it's a captive audience).  Now, if it has pertussis in it, it's a little different.  For example, for school my son needed 4 DPT, DT, DTaP, or Tdap in any combination.  He's had 3.  His ped will not give him another Tdap for a minimum of 5 years (she said higher risk of reaction due to the pertussis) so she has to write an annual note saying it would be medically dangerous for him to have another shot of one of those at this time (technically, he could have the DT and be "up to date" according to the school, but the ped feels that would be silly and isn't a fan of schools playing doctor with certain requirements).

 

In my experience, it's actually state requirements. Schools have to comply with state regulations. 

[Crimson Wife]

Well, I think the problem with this is that they still have a waning period with the effectiveness, but they are stuck not being able to booster because it's lumped with the tetanus. There is still a gap in protection (a protection which I believe is only about 70% to begin with).

 

I realize it would mean more shots, but I think for the long term, if pertussis vaccination is going to be at its peak effectiveness, they need to pull it out of the DTaP and have a pertussis only vaccine.

 

We didn't vaccinate for pertussis because my dd had a severe reaction to the DTP (before acellular was introduced). My kids had Td only. It just seems like if they can take out the Td and create a vax, they could make one just for pertussis.

 

I think ALL shots should be available individually.

 

My older kids got the individual measles, mumps, and rubella shots so that I could spread them out. But by the time my youngest had come along the Feds had pressured the manufacturer into discontinuing the individual shots. So parents were faced with an "all-or-nothing" decision about MMR. I didn't feel comfortable forgoing it entirely, but I delayed years past when I would've had the individual measles shot administered. Many parents who might've done the individual measles shot but don't feel comfortable with the potential risks of the combo MMR choose to skip it entirely.

[PinkyandtheBrains.]

Another issue is the Pharmaceutical industry. They are in it for the money.  There are big bucks to be made in requiring certain vaccines and drugs. I'm not saying all are bad, but there are instances where I feel we've been fed misinformation for the sake of the almighty dollar. 

 

Let's take statins for example.  I've done some research on cholesterol, blood pressure, and such.  Several doctors believe that we are pushing artificially low cholesterol levels to benefit pharmaceutical companies.  Our cells and arteries need cholesterol to maintain their flexibility.  If you check, each year the levels required get lower and lower (and I'm talking about the so-called "bad" cholesterol).  It's getting to the point where everyone is going to be required to be on statins.  For example here's one article that sheds some light on cholesterol: http://www.healthy.net/Health/Article/Cholesterol_tests/2750

 

My father died at 59 with his 4th heart attack.  Since the age of 42 he had been on statins and told his cholesterol was doing well.  In fact, his cholesterol may have been so artificially low, it may have caused hardening of the arteries and actually contributed to his death.  Am I absolutely sure of this? No, but several other things I've read suggest that when we starve the body of cholesterol, it can cause the same symptoms and worse than those we are treating people for in the first place.  Here's another more scientific article with cited sources: http://diaryofalegaldrugdealer.com/the-great-cholesterol-myth/   Yet another one: http://experiencelife.com/article/cholesterol-reconsidered/  These are just relative to statins, but when you involve profits to big pharma, you need to do due diligence and question what is really the impetus for these drugs and vaccines and what is in them. 

 

I'm not anti-drug  (legal drugs anyway) or anti-vaccination. For the most part, we also vaccinate.  However, we also have a history of serious allergies with some vaccinations.  Therefore we question.

 

My mother was a surgical RN for 28 years.   Because of the stories she relayed each night after work at the dinner table, I've learned to question, question, question and research! In fact, I've had doctors ask me before if I was a nurse because of all my questions. The point is that we are our own best advocates.  We do actually know our bodies and how they normally work better than our doctors.  We do not arrive in this world as a standard model like a Buick.  Each body has its own idiosynchrasies. We all react differently to different chemicals and plant bases.  Therefore, we must really research a vaccine, be our own advocates, and judge the potential risks before just blindly following recommendations.

 

 

 

I agree Big Pharma <insert evil villian music here> is in it for the money, go capitalism!  The research on vaccines, referring to the standard ones everyone usually gets not some of the new ones like gardassil, is solid, extensive and ongoing. They keep looking at them, researching and evaluating.  It's not just big pharma that researches this either.  

 

I wouldn't equate vaccine research and testing to that done for new medications. It appears to be a slightly (possibly huge!) different set of standards. I would have to do more research on that, but it seems to be a different process. I am currently researching workouts and exercise ideas I might like so a new topic will have to wait!

[Elisabet1]

Just anecdotal evidence, but I personally know of two babies that died suddenly of unknown causes the night after being vaccinated. (Not SIDS) I did decide to vaccinate my kids, but I deliberated long and hard about it.

I know 3 babies that died that way too. It was horrifying.

 

The first time, it was a neighbor. We lived in a apartment. I was very pregnant at the time. We could hear screaming going on outside and could see the lights from the ambulance and fire truck. We looked out the window and saw the mom screaming. They all left. The next day, we got notice from the complex that it had been a baby girl...Cassandra. It was March 1996. I went to the candlelight vigil. The mom told me she was never able to return to the apartment and had been staying elsewhere ever since. She said she did not understand how this had happened, she had been to the ped earlier that day and everything was fine and she had her shots. It was her 2 month shots.  She told me they cannot tell her at all why her daughter suddenly died. And it was not SIDS. The baby was awake when it happened. They were holding her.

 

That was the first, but it will always be etched in my mind. Vaccines are still a medical treatment. It should be researched before using it. 

 

Even since the birth if my first, the "required" shots have increased incredibly. Hep A? That gets a WTF from me. HPV shot for non-sexually active children? And they lie to the parents and kids to get them to sign off on that shot...tell them it is for cervical cancer. HPV is sexual health. Any child receiving that should be offered birth control and have full knowledge of what they are being given and ways to prevent HPV other than the shots. I feel like we have stepped back in time to when parents would decide their unfit child needed to be sterilized against their will. It is disgusting.