LucyStoner Posted May 16, 2014 Share Posted May 16, 2014 So all this talk of clothing choices meaning people are (insert adjective of choice) reminded me of some of the most frustrating interactions I have had these last few very frustrating weeks. To make a long story veeerry short, my SIL is leaving a domestic violence situation. It's 17 kinds of bad and there are 2 vulnerable, flat out amazing kids involved in my funny niece and nephew. This is a pretty cut and dry situation and criminal charges are pending and civil protection order(s) are in place. Yet, I have had several flat out ridiculous exhanges with 2 particular women who are near to the situation but not close. Both seem to hold my SILs good looks and her clothing against her, especially holding against her that their husbands have, er, "noticed" my SIL. One of these men is dangerously close to breaking the law with his near harrassment and possibly relaying information back to the batterer. My SIL has recieved texts from these women, one telling her not long before she finally left that "she needs to make it up with her husband and keep him happy". She told her this after she knew of some, but not all, of the violence. The stuff she knew about included breaking my SILs hand and punching out one of her front teeth. Last week, while I was looking for my niece, who was temporarily missing after school (yeah, I aged that hour people, I really did) and one of these "ladies" wanted to gossip with me about my SIL and make exucses for the abuse and abuser. I am looking for a missing 12 year old in a DV situation and she wants to stand around and slut shame my SIL. I shut her down but what the frick!??! Much of this is based on their impressions of my SIL for how she looks. She has a rocking body and would probably get lusty looks from these ladies' rather, uh, forward and crass husbands if she were wearing a burlap sack. One of these ladies agreed to write a perjured statement for the batterer. So much for "thou shall not lie." This is why judging people for how they look in a tank top is reprehensible and disgusting. It's truly just too close to "I wonder what she did to cause him to do that" (yeah, real quote people, there are people really like that.) There is no excuse for abuse. Dissecting clothing choices as a reflection on someone's value as a person is icky. It becomes that much more dicey when people use it, and the related questions as to her sexual going-ons, to minimize, rationalize, deny or overlook physical, sexual, emotional and verbal abuse. Unfortunately, that is all too common. Perhaps the only thing worse than domestic abuse is people excusing it or blaming the victim. So that is my screed on #%$! patriarchy for the week. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean in Newcastle Posted May 16, 2014 Share Posted May 16, 2014 :grouphug: :grouphug: :grouphug: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 16, 2014 Share Posted May 16, 2014 There is so much wrong wrong wrong in this situation. I am so sorry for what has happened and will continue to happen in a legal (not necessarily a "justice") system. In the wake of the Doug Phillips and Bill Gothard and related situations, I have come to realize that there are certain parts of American society that are mistaken for "Christian" when they are nothing but oppression. I have also realized that I have been in some sort of "cone of protection" (to riff on "cone of silence") in that "patriarchy" has come into my periphery but not to have influence in my life, EVEN AS I have become aware that for some people this is all they have known. It makes me realize that when we use certain words, "modesty" among them, we are talking at cross-purposes--because the definition is completely different. (I have run into this in other arenas, as an Orthodox Christian--"salvation" means something different than it does for Protestants.) Sometimes, when we talk about things on this discussion board, we have to realize that our words don't mean the same thing. LucyStoner, I am really sorry for the hell your beloved face. People who are judging had better be very careful...because Christ himself made some pretty clear statements against judging others. There are some interesting stories in Orthodox Christianity about saints who were ... ummm... maybe not very "saintly" in their outward appearance...but were considered saints because they did not presume to judge another. "Judge not, lest ye be judged." "You will be judged with the same measure you use to judge." Lord have mercy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catwoman Posted May 16, 2014 Share Posted May 16, 2014 :grouphug: :grouphug: :grouphug: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SunnyDays Posted May 16, 2014 Share Posted May 16, 2014 Oh, Katie. :grouphug: I'm so sorry for what you're all going through. Those women are despicable. I'm glad your SIL and your niece and nephew have you to lean on, but no one should ever have to live that hell. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melissa in Australia Posted May 16, 2014 Share Posted May 16, 2014 (hugs) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cinder Posted May 16, 2014 Share Posted May 16, 2014 :grouphug: What a horrible situation. I hope your sister and her dc will be able to find peace and healing. :grouphug: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freeindeed Posted May 16, 2014 Share Posted May 16, 2014 I hope your SIL and her children will come to a place of peace and healing. These women you describe sound absolutely horrific. Jealousy is nasty enough, but coupled with their accusations and lies, it's downright disgusting and despicable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veritaserum Posted May 16, 2014 Share Posted May 16, 2014 How awful. :-( Yes, patriarchy both oppresses women and teaches men to pass the blame onto women. It also encourages women to help oppress and silence any women who point out the problems. Frak the patriarchy. :-( Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeacherZee Posted May 16, 2014 Share Posted May 16, 2014 Hugs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marbel Posted May 16, 2014 Share Posted May 16, 2014 What an awful situation. I'm so sorry for your family. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mommyfaithe Posted May 16, 2014 Share Posted May 16, 2014 Just despicable!! I can not fathom what these women are thinking! Or not thinking! Obviously, karma is not on their radar. The law of the universe...every religion has its form of Karma. I am praying for your SIL, that justice prevails and she and her children remain safe and deaf to comments from idiots! She is blessed to have you! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anne in CA Posted May 16, 2014 Share Posted May 16, 2014 I am sorry for your bad situation. Many years ago I used bad theology to help a friend justify staying with an abuser who really wanted to kill her. IMO the only reason he did not kill her was that her brothers would have killed him. In my defense I did not know how bad the domestic violence was, but I have never gotten over feeling badly that I was not more helpful. She stayed with him for much longer than she should have. She has issues from dealing with it that may never go away. I REALLY miss my friend that was, but I am part of the reason my friend is not the same. The real issue to ME, personally, is that anything that steals a persons spirit and changes them is wrong to do to them. Bullying steals a person's spirit and can take a huge toll on the rest of people's lives, as we saw on the other thread. Patriarchy also steals part of someone's spirit and ruins lives, both men's and women's. Domestic violence/ verbal abuse is spirit destroying as well as racial bigotry. All those things make my blood pressure go through the roof. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FaithManor Posted May 16, 2014 Share Posted May 16, 2014 Oh my word, I really hope that your SIL and her children find safety and healing! The women that join in on this crap make my brain bleed. I'd like to punch them. But sadly, I see this reaction all the time and especially from women inside extreme patriarchial traditions because it appears that they feel better about themselves (I'm a better person, more saved, more spiritual, more whatever) than that woman over there, and I suspect that this comes from the fight for human dignity and respect because women are so demeaned and disrespected in some of these traditions. It's the only way to get ahead within the group. The most extreme movements such as DP's also openly suggest that the only reason women are battered is because they aren't "submissive" enough to their husbands and if they'd just become perfect doormats for their spouses, the abuse would stop. DP excommunicated a woman from his congregation when she sought church help for domestic violence. She was considered a Jezebel for asking for help instead of submitting to the abuse. It ended up in a court case in which he sued the woman for her blog and he lost since he'd issued very damning statements to her in writing and in other verifiable forms and she was smart enough to keep the evidence. It's not necessarily this extreme in all patriarchial obsessed churches, but the danger is definitely there because the system deliberately demeans one gender which gives the other gender the wink, wink, nod, nod to oppress. Obviously, most males involved in these churches don't beat their wives. That would be a violation of their own personal code of ethics. It's just that for those with the propensity towards this behavior, for those lacking coping skills, lack of self control, for those narcissists, for those control freaks that do have the proclivity, they practically get the go ahead from the tradition. There just isn't any protection for the women because the women have been dehumanized. I think the reason that so many are talking about it now is because these ideas, these movements as organized religious entities used to be really fringe. And when I say fringe, I mean hardly known, had few members, didn't have much steam, certainly didn't get much press in the mainstream of Catholicism, Orthodoxy, or Protestantism. BUT, in the late 80's and through the 90's they began growing. The numbers got bigger. Leaders seemed to get in front of the microphone a lot. The internet brought them into the spotlight. Instead of being some poduck, back hole church in no one recognized, they became large corporate organizations with LOTS of donors and multi million dollar budgets who tried to put on a veneer of acceptability in order to get their foot in the door of the homeschooling movement, mainstream denominations, religious conventions, etc. Bill Gothard, when nobody knew him and his stuff was new but so whacky nobody ever heard of it and nobody the collective you knew ever ascribed to it, just didn't seem like a threat gender equality issues. 30 years later, a net worth in 2008 estimated at 94 million dollars, youth re-training centers that took in public monies in three different states, a youth re-training center in Moscow, and a horde of female victims coming forward....he got a LOT scarier. DP in 1994 was a nobody. A total nobody with no credibility anywhere. In 2013, he was running a multi-million dollar company peddling his dangerous ideals at every homeschool convention in the nation. DW 20 years ago wasn't on anyone's horizons. In the new millennium, he's the mind behind a history and literature program that is wildly popular with the reconstructionist movement, "Omnibus" and is becoming more widely known despite being a real woman hater, endorsing slavery, and marrying off a young girl in his congregation to a convicted pedophile with an official list of more than 30 victims, and suspected of many more than that. This is a man who has actually gained some steam within the homeschooling movement. DP's dad, Howard Phillips, founded the US Constitution Party. He ran for president several times. 40 years ago if you said that someone who wanted to make Old Testament law secular law and stone adulterers and wayward teens, bringing back capitol punishment for nearly all crime so that we wouldn't need prisons or jails could run for office on a national platform, people would have said your crazy. That will never happen. But not only did he found a party on these ideals, but in past three or four presidential elections they've been able to gather enough steam to pull together candidates and run on many national ballots. Thankfully they rarely get more than a couple hundred thousand votes. But, oh my word, they actually find citizens to vote for them which just kind of scares the eebie jeebies out of me and they have won positions in local politics and even a few state races!!! That's how it begins. You get them in your state legislatures (which of course begins with winning local races) and you're in trouble. Not some fringe, do not harm group anymore. We've got a DP loving, BG worshipping, DW adoring man in our township who runs for township supervisor every single election. He spends a lot of money on it. Now, it's the township supervisor of a rural township of 1200 people. Doesn't sound like anything to be concerned about. Well, his agenda ought to make everyone vote against him on principle anyway, but that's not the point. The point is that if he wins, the next step is an appointed position with the county, which means the following couple of election cycles will see his name on the ballot for county commissioner, which means in another election cycle or two he's working in a position in Lansing, which means the following cycle, he runs for the state legislature. Sounds like a long time, but many of these cycles are only two years so in less than a decade he could be the representative of my district in Lansing. God Forbid! Guess whom my husband and I very ACTIVELY campaign against. If Mickey Mouse were his only opponent, we'd campaign for Mickey! :D I'd sooner elect my cocker spaniel as township supervisor as this man and thankfully so far, the only people - judging by the voting count - who cast their ballot for him must be his wife and kids, maybe a couple of other relatives. Whew! Dodged a bullet. But, if you don't pay attention, like anything else in politics, one day you wake up and go, "WTH????" I think that's why we have to talk about this stuff. It's not fringe enough anymore. The worldview has gained enough veneer of "family values friendly" or whatever the political buzzword is that family people should like them, that the whistle blowing needs to commence. Billy G used to give HUGE sums of money - you can check the financial dealings...I have, but it would take a lot of space to post his financials here (google political candidates and donors along with Gothard's name - there will be numerous articles that pop up which have investigated the facts) to candidates that he felt would allow him to move forward with more youth training centers. Billy G's secular version of his ideology, Character First, has been used widely in Louisiana public schools. You'd like to think that a sicko like him could not get access to so much public dollar, but he does, and his is an organization that will tell females that if they are getting knocked around by their husbands or fathers, it's all their fault because they didn't submit enough. So, again, a "fringe" group that could have been poised - hopefully some of the expose (how does one make an accent mark with this program????) on this creep will help end their day in the spotlight - to make inroads into public policy that would undo everything that has been done on behalf of women's rights, gender equality, and equal protection under the law for women and children. Again, OP, I'm really sorry for your SIL and her children. I will pray for their safety and justice to be served in the family and criminal courts. I hope you can continue to be a bright spot in her life. I hope you find some way of telling those nasty hens to go back to their own chicken coup and leave her alone. 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trulycrabby Posted May 16, 2014 Share Posted May 16, 2014 Honestly, I know very little about the patriarchy movement except what I have read here, but I am praying for your sister in law and her children. : grouphug: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ravin Posted May 16, 2014 Share Posted May 16, 2014 Faithmanor, read some classic science fiction. Heinlein and Butler were two examples of authors who wrote about dystopian future visions of the U.S. where the fundamentalist right takes control. The idea that we could as a society abandon the secular civil society and fall into theocracy is not one that is at all unimaginable. The mindset the OP describes in those women disgusts and baffles me. I'm glad her SIL has good family support and not relatives caught up in such wrongheadedness! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liz CA Posted May 16, 2014 Share Posted May 16, 2014 I am glad you posted. We need to teach our kids and remind ourselves that we are responsible for our own behavior. The onus is on us. Even when we do see someone scantily clad, it is not justified to judge or view it as an invitation. Even when we are umcomfortable with someone we cannot blame them for other people's behavior because those "other people" are in charge of their own actions. Such an important lesson for our kids...and adults. And I am glad you found the your niece. That must have been frightening with everything else going on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goldberry Posted May 16, 2014 Share Posted May 16, 2014 It makes me realize that when we use certain words, "modesty" among them, we are talking at cross-purposes--because the definition is completely different. Sometimes, when we talk about things on this discussion board, we have to realize that our words don't mean the same thing. This is so wise, and something I have had to learn. At first I was surprised at the negative reactions to the word "modesty" on this board. Then I realized what you are pointing out in this post. I had no idea the horrible experiences people have been through under the guise of modesty/Christianity/you name it. Or the way those things have been used to subjugate/demean/demoralize people. Of course those people have a different definition of certain words than I do...they have a right to be angry and offended, and it is not surprising those words evoke such visceral responses. Yet another way this board has helped me to be more understanding... Lucy, what an awful situation... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trish Posted May 16, 2014 Share Posted May 16, 2014 Stuff like this happens without patriarchy being involved. Crazy people are crazy people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MeghanL Posted May 16, 2014 Share Posted May 16, 2014 Stuff like this happens without patriarchy being involved. Crazy people are crazy people. Yes, but it's harder to say "crazy people are crazy people" when the crazy person is also supposed to be your direct line to God and the entire religious community would rather you be beaten to death than admit anything other than what is "faith promoting". Any proof that the crazy person is not God-inspired must be the wife's fault or the entire faith comes tumbling down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cottonmama Posted May 16, 2014 Share Posted May 16, 2014 Just posting as a modest-dressing woman to agree that that kind of treatment of abused women is horrible. I don't believe in shunning at all. I think we all have standards of modesty on some level, and I understand that mine are more conservative than others'. I want to pass those conservative standards of dress on to my kids (both genders). And I'll admit that to me part of the reason is consideration for those who are trying not to have lustful thoughts. That doesn't mean that I am responsible for that person's thoughts. It just means I'm willing to cover up more if that helps them. I'm not posting this to start controversy but to note that not all of us who are advocating modesty have that hurtful outlook. I hope this comes across in that way without giving ANY excuse for abusers. And I'm so sorry the OP's SIL was treated that way after what she went through. :grouphug: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LucyStoner Posted May 16, 2014 Author Share Posted May 16, 2014 Stuff like this happens without patriarchy being involved. Violence against women by their male spouses is one part of patriarchal thinking. Is the batterer crazy? Perhaps. But in his mind controlling her, her body and her sexuality is why "she incites his anger" and "makes him mad". Nearly every fight that led to violence was about his jealousy and paranoia the she was cheating on him. Being crazy and being patriarchal are not mutually exclusive of each other and for some go hand in hand. (Nor does one necessitate the other- I fully get that there are patriarchal thinking people who would neither condone nor perpetrate abuse of women and children.) Excusing violence because she's a (insert sexist slur rooted in sexuality shaming of your choice) is part and parcel with misogyny and punching her themselves IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mommaduck Posted May 16, 2014 Share Posted May 16, 2014 Does anyone else ever think of The Handmaid's Tale when things such as Phillips and Gothard come up? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mommaduck Posted May 16, 2014 Share Posted May 16, 2014 Just posting as a modest-dressing woman to agree that that kind of treatment of abused women is horrible. I don't believe in shunning at all. I think we all have standards of modesty on some level, and I understand that mine are more conservative than others'. I want to pass those conservative standards of dress on to my kids (both genders). And I'll admit that to me part of the reason is consideration for those who are trying not to have lustful thoughts. That doesn't mean that I am responsible for that person's thoughts. It just means I'm willing to cover up more if that helps them. I'm not posting this to start controversy but to note that not all of us who are advocating modesty have that hurtful outlook. I hope this comes across in that way without giving ANY excuse for abusers. And I'm so sorry the OP's SIL was treated that way after what she went through. :grouphug: I started out skirt wearing and headcovering for similar reasons. My reasons now are more personal and have nothing to do with helping others with their thoughts. What undermined the previous thinking is, "how far are we to go...how quick is that slippery slope." The truth is, you'd be considered immodest by earlier standards. Therefore, is it the coverage? Or is it something else that is the issue? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mommaduck Posted May 16, 2014 Share Posted May 16, 2014 There's a sign in North Charleston/Hanahan that reads "My little black dress doesn't mean yes." Yes, I think the little black dress shown is impractical, is obviously created to entice, etc. On the other hand, it STILL is not an invitation and those that think it is have issues. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FaithManor Posted May 16, 2014 Share Posted May 16, 2014 Does anyone else ever think of The Handmaid's Tale when things such as Phillips and Gothard come up? Well, oh crap! I've never read the book so I went and looked at the wiki summary! :scared: :eek: :ack2: :willy_nilly: :svengo: YIKES! This is exactly the kind of world I could imagine DP, DW, and BG trying to implement. Gah! Where is my deserted tropical island without snakes??? I want to start my own republic. It shall be known as the Republic of "Get the Cray, Cray AWAY FROM ME!" Don't know what the initials should be for this nation, but I'm pretty certain that one of the first laws put on the books will be, "Feed misogynists to the piranhas, thus saith the queen of the island." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mommaduck Posted May 16, 2014 Share Posted May 16, 2014 Well, oh crap! I've never read the book so I went and looked at the wiki summary! :scared: :eek: :ack2: :willy_nilly: :svengo: YIKES! This is exactly the kind of world I could imagine DP, DW, and BG trying to implement. Gah! Where is my deserted tropical island without snakes??? I want to start my own republic. It shall be known as the Republic of "Get the Cray, Cray AWAY FROM ME!" Don't know what the initials should be for this nation, but I'm pretty certain that one of the first laws put on the books will be, "Feed misogynists to the piranhas, thus saith the queen of the island." It was also made into a movie. You want to throw the book, but it's very good. I read it years ago and saw the movie when I was younger as well. I just wished I had understood the connection between it and these groups I was attracted to at one time back then. Looking back, I entirely see the connection and see where others have made the same connection and comparison between these groups and that book. A milder comparison would be Stepford Wives. People fall in love with an ideal and get sucked in...ignoring reality and those that are taking advantage of the starry eyed idealism. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrookValley. Posted May 16, 2014 Share Posted May 16, 2014 Well, oh crap! I've never read the book so I went and looked at the wiki summary! :scared: :eek: :ack2: :willy_nilly: :svengo: YIKES! This is exactly the kind of world I could imagine DP, DW, and BG trying to implement. Gah! Where is my deserted tropical island without snakes??? I want to start my own republic. It shall be known as the Republic of "Get the Cray, Cray AWAY FROM ME!" Don't know what the initials should be for this nation, but I'm pretty certain that one of the first laws put on the books will be, "Feed misogynists to the piranhas, thus saith the queen of the island." You should read it. It's very good, albeit horrifying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Above The Rowan Posted May 16, 2014 Share Posted May 16, 2014 Does anyone else ever think of The Handmaid's Tale when things such as Phillips and Gothard come up? Yup. We read this in senior high English class and I have read it probably a dozen times since then. I love this book. Margaret Atwood is one of my favourite authors. And everytime I read a discussion on here about patriarchal issues, this book pops up in my head. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrincessMommy Posted May 16, 2014 Share Posted May 16, 2014 There is so much wrong wrong wrong in this situation. I am so sorry for what has happened and will continue to happen in a legal (not necessarily a "justice") system. In the wake of the Doug Phillips and Bill Gothard and related situations, I have come to realize that there are certain parts of American society that are mistaken for "Christian" when they are nothing but oppression. I have also realized that I have been in some sort of "cone of protection" (to riff on "cone of silence") in that "patriarchy" has come into my periphery but not to have influence in my life, EVEN AS I have become aware that for some people this is all they have known. It makes me realize that when we use certain words, "modesty" among them, we are talking at cross-purposes--because the definition is completely different. (I have run into this in other arenas, as an Orthodox Christian--"salvation" means something different than it does for Protestants.) Sometimes, when we talk about things on this discussion board, we have to realize that our words don't mean the same thing. LucyStoner, I am really sorry for the hell your beloved face. People who are judging had better be very careful...because Christ himself made some pretty clear statements against judging others. There are some interesting stories in Orthodox Christianity about saints who were ... ummm... maybe not very "saintly" in their outward appearance...but were considered saints because they did not presume to judge another. "Judge not, lest ye be judged." "You will be judged with the same measure you use to judge." Lord have mercy. That bolded part... it is SO so true. Its a good reminder... Lucy - what an awful situation. I hope your sister-in-law escapes and has a good support system to help her. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elisabet1 Posted May 16, 2014 Share Posted May 16, 2014 SIL's bad choices in life in general may be part of her bad choice to marry a man who is also a bad choice. BUT....that does NOT mean she should run back to that man. And it also does NOT mean gossip is suddenly ok. Gossip is not ok and these women were definitely engaging in it. I likely would have turned to those women and have said "gossiping is unbiblical and I won't be a part of it. You may want to check yourself. Don't try to remove the speck from your brother's eye when you have a plank sticking out of yours." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plink Posted May 16, 2014 Share Posted May 16, 2014 SIL's bad choices in life in general may be part of her bad choice to marry a man who is also a bad choice. BUT....that does NOT mean she should run back to that man. And it also does NOT mean gossip is suddenly ok. Gossip is not ok and these women were definitely engaging in it. I likely would have turned to those women and have said "gossiping is unbiblical and I won't be a part of it. You may want to check yourself. Don't try to remove the speck from your brother's eye when you have a plank sticking out of yours." Seriously??? Why do you assume that the sister is making bad choices? ~Because someone was gossiping about her in regards to her clothing? OP specifically said her sister would look good in a burlap sack. Some of us have bodies that simply look shapely no matter what we wear. It isn't always about the clothing, sometimes it just your God-given shape. It isn't something you can change, even if you wanted to. (Believe me, I've tried - and was criticized that wearing an oversized sweatshirt and jeans was too provocative.) ETA - ARGH!!!!! Comments like this make me crazy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FaithManor Posted May 16, 2014 Share Posted May 16, 2014 Plink, I would have liked what you said, but I flirted out all my likes for the day and it's not even 2:00 p.m. It's the second time this week. :blushing: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elisabet1 Posted May 16, 2014 Share Posted May 16, 2014 I want to add this...choice in life tend to spread across the board. So if you make bad choices in several areas, you probably are not likely going to make good choices in one area...and that good choice area is not likely going to be marriage. I am very sorry for your SIL. And I do not obey my husband. I am happy for those who do that and that it really works for. But that is not how our lives are, and I like how we live. We are all different and different things work out. Not every man wants to have to make every decision and rule over his wife. Some people like, and it works for them, the man leading the home. Others prefer a 2 person partner ship sharing these duties. And others still prefer to include the entire extended family and this is engrained deeply in their culture. And many divide the duties different. Some share everything, others, each person has a different area they control. But if someone..man or woman, boy or girl, tends to make bad life choices, and nothing is done to intervene, it is generally no shock when that person can end up in a bad marriage. That person generally needs much more than being removed from the situation. If they do not get help in making more changes, and decide to do that, they will likely end up in a similar situation/relationship again, with the next person. It is not that they CAUSE that person to be abusive, but they are more likely to pick someone who is abusive. Also, another thing I have noticed (worked at a domestic violence shelter many years ago), in SOME people, they thrive on a victim mentality. So, they pick someone who will make them a victim. And remember that men/boys can be abused too. This is not a problem exclusive to women. Unless the abused person was in that relationship against their will (kidnapping, a child who was under the adult's control, etc) the abused generally need as much help to change as the abuser. And of course, anyone held against their will needs a lot of help with recovery too, but the point is, that people who chose abusive relationships often (but not always) have something in them that attracted to that situation in the first place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bettyandbob Posted May 16, 2014 Share Posted May 16, 2014 SIL's bad choices in life in general may be part of her bad choice to marry a man who is also a bad choice. What part of this thread gave you information that the SIL made bad choices? Why even bring up bad choices? Doing so is incredibly judgemental. You don't have all the facts. You haven't lived in the situation. You have no idea what choices, good or bad, led to the situation described by the OP. And I would not expect the OP to give more information. Please do not speculate about people without the facts. Doing so blames the victim, even if you think it doesn't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FaithManor Posted May 16, 2014 Share Posted May 16, 2014 Elizabet1, NOTHING in the OP's post stated squat about her bad life choices. My sister DID EVERYTHING RIGHT...everything, by every conservative Christian standard there was, and ended up marrying the "nice boy", the "good boy", the Christian one" who turned out to have PTSD from his tours in the Middle East and turned into a homicidal maniac after charming the socks off everyone. We were lucky to get her out of there alive since he slept with a loaded handgun under his pillow! That is just so offensive it makes my brain limp. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denise in Florida Posted May 16, 2014 Share Posted May 16, 2014 I am sorry for your bad situation. Many years ago I used bad theology to help a friend justify staying with an abuser who really wanted to kill her. IMO the only reason he did not kill her was that her brothers would have killed him. In my defense I did not know how bad the domestic violence was, but I have never gotten over feeling badly that I was not more helpful. She stayed with him for much longer than she should have. She has issues from dealing with it that may never go away. I REALLY miss my friend that was, but I am part of the reason my friend is not the same. The real issue to ME, personally, is that anything that steals a persons spirit and changes them is wrong to do to them. Bullying steals a person's spirit and can take a huge toll on the rest of people's lives, as we saw on the other thread. Patriarchy also steals part of someone's spirit and ruins lives, both men's and women's. Domestic violence/ verbal abuse is spirit destroying as well as racial bigotry. All those things make my blood pressure go through the roof. Not the same situation but I have done the bolded as well. I have grown a lot since then, both in my faith (better theology) and I hope as a friend. I have also learned to trust people's perceptions of what they are going through. Yes, there are liars and fakes but in my personal experiences (not global obviously) they are by far the minority. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plink Posted May 16, 2014 Share Posted May 16, 2014 But if someone..man or woman, boy or girl, tends to make bad life choices, and nothing is done to intervene, it is generally no shock when that person can end up in a bad marriage. ... the point is, that people who chose abusive relationships often (but not always) have something in them that attracted to that situation in the first place. | | | | \ / You may want to check yourself. Don't try to remove the speck from your brother's eye when you have a plank sticking out of yours." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luckymama Posted May 16, 2014 Share Posted May 16, 2014 My brain just exploded. And I'm out of likes. Sheesh. FaithManor, you definitely should read The Handmaid's Tale. I read it in college (not as an assignment) and it was truly mind-opening. I think I should do a reread soon. I'm sure my experiences as an adult will color my reading this time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denise in Florida Posted May 16, 2014 Share Posted May 16, 2014 This is so wise, and something I have had to learn. At first I was surprised at the negative reactions to the word "modesty" on this board. Then I realized what you are pointing out in this post. I had no idea the horrible experiences people have been through under the guise of modesty/Christianity/you name it. Or the way those things have been used to subjugate/demean/demoralize people. Of course those people have a different definition of certain words than I do...they have a right to be angry and offended, and it is not surprising those words evoke such visceral responses. Yet another way this board has helped me to be more understanding... Lucy, what an awful situation... I have learned so much from these wise ladies here over years. :iagree: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FaithManor Posted May 16, 2014 Share Posted May 16, 2014 My brain just exploded. And I'm out of likes. Sheesh. FaithManor, you definitely should read The Handmaid's Tale. I read it in college (not as an assignment) and it was truly mind-opening. I think I should do a reread soon. I'm sure my experiences as an adult will color my reading this time. Lucky mama, did you flirt yours out as well???? Mine are gone for the day. Second time in a week. I don't feel like I was given as many likes today as I used to have and now wonder if the mods are going to keep reducing my ration until I'm down to bread and water type like sustenance. :blush: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katy Posted May 16, 2014 Share Posted May 16, 2014 I've never read The Handmaid's Tale but I will now. Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carol in Cal. Posted May 16, 2014 Share Posted May 16, 2014 Another factor in the rise of these fringe movements is that the media does not really cover anything that isn't sensational but is religious very well. They look for an 'angle' a lot, and it's pretty clear when they do write about mainstream Christian faiths, conservative or liberal, that they often don't really understand them. It's an embarrassment, really. So fringe, nutsy groups get a lot of press, and in the minds of the ignorant they become somewhat normalized or Christianity as a whole gets tarred with that brush. Frankly, it's kind of offensive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FaithManor Posted May 16, 2014 Share Posted May 16, 2014 Another factor in the rise of these fringe movements is that the media does not really cover anything that isn't sensational but is religious very well. They look for an 'angle' a lot, and it's pretty clear when they do write about mainstream Christian faiths, conservative or liberal, that they often don't really understand them. It's an embarrassment, really. So fringe, nutsy groups get a lot of press, and in the minds of the ignorant they become somewhat normalized or Christianity as a whole gets tarred with that brush. Frankly, it's kind of offensive. I cant like this. I want to, but I can't. I belong in the "likes" brothel this week. :nopity: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrookValley. Posted May 16, 2014 Share Posted May 16, 2014 SIL's bad choices in life in general may be part of her bad choice to marry a man who is also a bad choice. BUT....that does NOT mean she should run back to that man. And it also does NOT mean gossip is suddenly ok. Gossip is not ok and these women were definitely engaging in it. I likely would have turned to those women and have said "gossiping is unbiblical and I won't be a part of it. You may want to check yourself. Don't try to remove the speck from your brother's eye when you have a plank sticking out of yours." I want to add this...choice in life tend to spread across the board. So if you make bad choices in several areas, you probably are not likely going to make good choices in one area...and that good choice area is not likely going to be marriage. I am very sorry for your SIL. And I do not obey my husband. I am happy for those who do that and that it really works for. But that is not how our lives are, and I like how we live. We are all different and different things work out. Not every man wants to have to make every decision and rule over his wife. Some people like, and it works for them, the man leading the home. Others prefer a 2 person partner ship sharing these duties. And others still prefer to include the entire extended family and this is engrained deeply in their culture. And many divide the duties different. Some share everything, others, each person has a different area they control. But if someone..man or woman, boy or girl, tends to make bad life choices, and nothing is done to intervene, it is generally no shock when that person can end up in a bad marriage. That person generally needs much more than being removed from the situation. If they do not get help in making more changes, and decide to do that, they will likely end up in a similar situation/relationship again, with the next person. It is not that they CAUSE that person to be abusive, but they are more likely to pick someone who is abusive. Also, another thing I have noticed (worked at a domestic violence shelter many years ago), in SOME people, they thrive on a victim mentality. So, they pick someone who will make them a victim. And remember that men/boys can be abused too. This is not a problem exclusive to women. Unless the abused person was in that relationship against their will (kidnapping, a child who was under the adult's control, etc) the abused generally need as much help to change as the abuser. And of course, anyone held against their will needs a lot of help with recovery too, but the point is, that people who chose abusive relationships often (but not always) have something in them that attracted to that situation in the first place. This is victim blaming, and it's no less dangerous than patriarchy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrookValley. Posted May 16, 2014 Share Posted May 16, 2014 Lucky mama, did you flirt yours out as well???? Mine are gone for the day. Second time in a week. I don't feel like I was given as many likes today as I used to have and now wonder if the mods are going to keep reducing my ration until I'm down to bread and water type like sustenance. :blush: Well, your bad choices on this forum have led you to making bad choices with your likes, so no surprise that you now have no likes to give. Shame, shame. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veritaserum Posted May 16, 2014 Share Posted May 16, 2014 This is victim blaming, and it's no less dangerous than patriarchy. And is often perpetuated by patriarchy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FaithManor Posted May 16, 2014 Share Posted May 16, 2014 Well, your bad choices on this forum have led you to making bad choices with your likes, so no surprise that you now have no likes to give. Shame, shame. That's victim blaming and I resent that! :001_tt2: :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wheres Toto Posted May 16, 2014 Share Posted May 16, 2014 Well, oh crap! I've never read the book so I went and looked at the wiki summary! :scared: :eek: :ack2: :willy_nilly: :svengo: YIKES! This is exactly the kind of world I could imagine DP, DW, and BG trying to implement. Gah! Where is my deserted tropical island without snakes??? I want to start my own republic. It shall be known as the Republic of "Get the Cray, Cray AWAY FROM ME!" Don't know what the initials should be for this nation, but I'm pretty certain that one of the first laws put on the books will be, "Feed misogynists to the piranhas, thus saith the queen of the island." I found The Handmaids Tale extremely disturbing. Very well written but the kind of images that are very hard to get out of your head. And I generally read science fiction, fantasy and horror. Clive Barker, Stephen King, Dean Koontz, Mercedes Lackey, Heinlein, Bradbury... If I found the Handmaid's Tale that disturbing, it should tell you something. And at the time I read it, I had never even heard of the wack-a-doodle patriarchy ideas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
albeto. Posted May 16, 2014 Share Posted May 16, 2014 This is victim blaming, and it's no less dangerous than patriarchy. And is often perpetuated by patriarchy. It's a symptom of internalized patriarchy. Internalized misogyny. Interesting stuff, but sad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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