I don't think I can keep doing this

[lil' maids in a row]

My 7 year old has been diagnosed with ocd. She struggles with anxiety, insomnia and intrusive thoughts. She is in therapy, but I don't see any progress (I know it will take time). She is not on meds, but I do give her some herbal supplements that seem to help a bit (magnesium, calm drops, melatonin) .

 

I haven't slept through the night in months. She wakes me up 1-4 times every night. I am so exhausted. I need a lot of sleep (I hate that fact, but it is very true), otherwise I get engulfed by depression and anxiety.

 

She is so needy (my heart breaks for her), and it is just constant. She is also tired and struggling and her emotions and temper are on a hair trigger. My younger two are so much simpler to parent, but they bicker and complain about school work and pester one another (and provoke their big sister, who then explodes).

 

This is a hard enough job, but without sleep it is just absolutely overwhelming. I am sitting in a puddle of tears as I type this. What do I do?

[Chris in VA]

Many hugs to you, first.

 

Said most gently, I would reconsider medication. It could change your life and hers.

[Amy in NH]

She'd probably be a whole lot easier to deal with if she also got a good night's sleep.  Mindfulness Based Therapy helps with anxiety and sleep disturbances, but maybe look into some sleep medication short-term until you are all rested enough to deal with her problems through therapeutic intervention.

[mytwomonkeys]

Big hugs to you. No advice, but I will pray for you. ((((Hugs))))

[lil' maids in a row]

Thank you for your responses.  

 

When she wakes up at night it is because she has some horrible violent thought (someone disemboweling her, or cutting her head off and making her drink the blood - can you imagine.  She is only 7.  She has never seen ANYTHING violent on TV.  The only violence she has been exposed to is The Story of the World (which we don't read anymore) and the Bible.  I have no idea how her brain comes up with these ideas.).   She needs to tell me and hug me.  

 

Dh works in a very dangerous job.  I ask her to wake me up instead of him, because I worry about him working on little sleep.  She is also ashamed for her dad to know the thoughts that come into her head  :( .

 

 

[Clear Creek]

I don't know how her diet is, but red dye #40 gives one of my children extreme insomnia, so maybe you can try eliminating it from her diet and seeing if that makes a difference.  Until we cut it from my daughter's diet, I used to joke that we were still waiting for her to sleep through the night at 8yo...except I wasn't really joking. :sad:   Five nights out of seven she would be up and down all night long, wandering the house and crying, unable to sleep and feeling rather frantic about it.  The next day she would be a bear, along with the rest of us who couldn't sleep with the lights on and a child crying.  The first night after she had had all red #40 removed from her diet, she slept through the night.  And then the next night, and the next one.

[Joanne]

It seems that a predisposition to mental illness - which can be a brain malfunction issue - is present. The brain may need some help to level the playing field and access skills learned in therapy.

 

Edited to add: I would eliminate or severely limit access to The Bible and I would monitor church/Sunday school. The topics can be very disturbing especially to a brain predisposed to dramatic processing.

[lil' maids in a row]

Her therapist (whom our pediatrician recommended) really wants to avoid meds (I do to).  I love her.  She is lovely, she really supports our homeschooling and dd adores her.  BUT, I don't see any progress.  DD's anxieties, insomnia, triggers, anger etc. rule our life.  I feel like our therapist is addressing it with a nerf gun.  Part of the problem is that dd is ashamed of her thoughts and behavior and doesn't share with the therapist as much as she should.  She is a delightful, charming and intelligent girl.  I think that the therapist looks at the sweet little thing in piggy tails who puts on a brave show sitting in the office and just doesn't get exactly how troubled she is.

[Clear Creek]

Thank you for your responses.  

 

When she wakes up at night it is because she has some horrible violent thought (someone disemboweling her, or cutting her head off and making her drink the blood - can you imagine.  She is only 7.  She has never seen ANYTHING violent on TV.  The only violence she has been exposed to is The Story of the World (which we don't read anymore) and the Bible.  I have no idea how her brain comes up with these ideas.).   She needs to tell me and hug me.  

 

Dh works in a very dangerous job.  I ask her to wake me up instead of him, because I worry about him working on little sleep.  She is also ashamed for her dad to know the thoughts that come into her head  :( .

 

(((((hugs))))) to your little girl.  I would seriously consider medication for her, that is quite a lot for a little girl to handle on her own.  And (((((hugs))))) to you, as well, momma.

[alef]

We are working through some very similar issues here. Have you had a sleep study done? I'm trying to arrange one for my dd, wondering if it is sleep problems that underlie most of the other problems rather than the other way around. Also pursuing allergy testing and therapy. All of which is hard to arrange as a sleep deprived mama with a family to take care of!

 

Sending (((hugs)))

[sassenach]

I, too, would consider meds. Have you thought about co-sleeping as a short term help? Maybe if you were right there when she woke, she could cuddle up with you without having to wake you. Though that may be a can of worms you don't want to open.

[lil' maids in a row]

Thank you for the info about Red Dye.  I will definitely try cutting that out.

[Joanne]

I am going to give the therapist more credit. If the brain malfunctions, it is difficult if not impossible to access coping and transformational skills.

 

Your pedi may not be well informed on mental illnesses as ILLNESS - although I understand the reluctance to medicate a child so young. However, the maternal genetics suggest a likely organic issue.

 

That is not your fault and not is it parenting.

[alef]

Medication is definitely on the radar here. My dd is six, and that seems awfully young for medication. But I have seen the positive impact of medication on other family members with mental health issues, I know sometimes it is the best thing. I just want to try other routes first.

[lil' maids in a row]

Alef,

 

Yes, I think that if the poor thing could just get enough sleep that it would improve the problem drastically.  Should I call her pediatrician about sleep meds.  Is their something OTC?  Should I talk with her therapist?  

[alef]

Our pediatrician is arranging for a sleep study at the children's hospital. I am hoping that it will provide useful information that can then guide treatment. I don't know what that might be at this point, but it seems the more information we gather the better decisions we will be able to make.

[lil' maids in a row]

That is not your fault and not is it parenting.

 

:unsure: Thank you for saying this.  

[lil' maids in a row]

 

Edited to add: I would eliminate or severely limit access to The Bible and I would monitor church/Sunday school. The topics can be very disturbing especially to a brain predisposed to dramatic processing.

 

I agree, we don't read anything violent in the Bible anymore (no passover story, no crucifixion etc.).  I have talked to the children's director about some of dd's problems, but I hadn't thought about checking up on what they are doing in Sunday School.  I will talk to her Sunday School teacher tomorrow.  Thank you.

[Jean in Newcastle]

Is this therapist allowed to prescribe medication?  I'd schedule an appointment without your daughter.  I would write down all the things your dd has said about her thoughts as verbatim as you can, and I would give that information to therapist.  It is dangerous for your dd's therapist to be operating without the full knowledge of exactly what is going on.  

[Bambam]

Said very gently, that I think, when a problem like this is impacting the family in a negative way (because lack of sleep does impact you and her health-wise and attitude-wise and patience-wise and many other ways), it is time to seriously consider a prescription to try to alleviate some of the problem.  And if you are at the point where you are having trouble keeping going on, then maybe it is time to consider you also having some sort of outlet (counselor, support group, two hours out along) as well. Sometimes just chatting with others who are in the same situation as yourself gives you strength and courage to keep on.

[lil' maids in a row]

Thank you Jean.  I think I am going to schedule an appointment with her pediatrician (for just me if that is possible) as well as with her therapist.  

 

DD's symptoms escalate and then ease off a bit.  I think I get lulled into thinking things are getting better when they start to ease up, but then the slightest thing causes another downward spiral.  It doesn't help that this has been an incredibly difficult few months.  We all had the flu in January (dd's intrusive thoughts went off the charts, hundreds a day, constant.  She was in such a terrible place that if she had known about suicide, I would have been afraid she would hurt herself),  There I was, barely able to get out of bed and she was absolutely falling to pieces and I had no idea what to do.  After that we had a terrible cold.  Then the stomach flu.  Then I had an issue that needed surgery.  Throw in a house refinance (that has been a nightmare), a dog that is dying and some home repair problems and well.......... it has been a rough two months.

 

We have not been able to keep up with our schoolwork.  I feel so bad about that, but I don't know what to do.

 

Mostly, thank you all for letting me get this off my chest.  I haven't been able to get out of bed today.  I have so many things that need to be done, but I just can't find the energy to get up and do them.  Having a soft place to turn to has really helped.  You have all given me a lot to think about.

[Jean in Newcastle]

Has she been thoroughly checked for PANDAS as a cause of the OCD and intrusive thoughts?  http://www.pandasresourcenetwork.org/about-p-a-n-d-a-s/p-a-n-d-a-s-faqs/

[Jennifer in MI]

Has she been thoroughly checked for PANDAS as a cause of the OCD and intrusive thoughts?  http://www.pandasresourcenetwork.org/about-p-a-n-d-a-s/p-a-n-d-a-s-faqs/

I was going to post the same thing.  The fact that she gets worse when sick is what made me wonder.

 

My dd was diagnosed with PANDAS last year and is currently in remission.  

 

((hugs))

[G5052]

Yes, as tough as this is, I think you need to up the ante and get more professionals involved.  Yes, therapy takes time, but when things are spiraling out of control, it may be time for medication.  Sometimes the medication will bring things down enough to the point that with therapy, you can back off on medication.  I wouldn't do that on your own though, you need a team involved in this IMHO.

[zoobie]

I agree with Joanne and immediately would look for a child psychiatrist. You should not worry about what the therapist thinks. She is a professional and will not be hurt that your daughter needs a different type of practitioner. If you knew a really great ENT, but you needed a cardiologist, the ENT will not be upset by your choice to switch. Your DD is your priority, and your mom gut is telling you that she is not progressing under this treatment.

 

Can you get some respite care from a close friend or family member who would come to your house and allow you to get some sleep? If you're not functional, you cannot advocate as thoroughly for your DD.

 

This has absolutely nothing to do with your parenting! Would you blame yourself if she had a physical illness? You clearly love her and are doing your very best to take care of her! Don't doubt yourself as a mom. Remember? You have to be her #1 advocate, and self-doubt is not going to help that. You are mommy, hear you roar! :grouphug:

[alef]

Thank you Jean. I think I am going to schedule an appointment with her pediatrician (for just me if that is possible) as well as with her therapist.

 

DD's symptoms escalate and then ease off a bit. I think I get lulled into thinking things are getting better when they start to ease up, but then the slightest thing causes another downward spiral. It doesn't help that this has been an incredibly difficult few months. We all had the flu in January (dd's intrusive thoughts went off the charts, hundreds a day, constant. She was in such a terrible place that if she had known about suicide, I would have been afraid she would hurt herself), There I was, barely able to get out of bed and she was absolutely falling to pieces and I had no idea what to do. After that we had a terrible cold. Then the stomach flu. Then I had an issue that needed surgery. Throw in a house refinance (that has been a nightmare), a dog that is dying and some home repair problems and well.......... it has been a rough two months.

 

We have not been able to keep up with our schoolwork. I feel so bad about that, but I don't know what to do.

 

Mostly, thank you all for letting me get this off my chest. I haven't been able to get out of bed today. I have so many things that need to be done, but I just can't find the energy to get up and do them. Having a soft place to turn to has really helped. You have all given me a lot to think about.

In my experience as an observer, being sick, tired or under stress exacerbate depression, anxiety and OCD. This is why I am looking into both a sleep study and allergy testing for my dd, in the hopes that we can find and resolve some underlying issues. Her nightmares seemed to decrease when we tried a gluten free diet, though the diet fell by the wayside when we were traveling and I haven't been able to reestablish it. I don't know that gluten in and of itself affects her, but I do suspect something in what we were eating had an impact.

 

Has the therapist taught your daughter to recognize and label intrusive thoughts as OCD? My older dd found this book useful when dealing with OCD issues: http://www.amazon.com/What-When-Brain-Stuck-What/dp/1591478057/ref=pd_bxgy_b_img_y

 

For older dd10 some things that proved useful were learning when she started to feel out of control to sit down with an interesting book and read, forcing her brain out of the obsessive or anxious rut it was in. The other thing that made a huge difference in her life was taking up an activity--in her case dance-- that essentially became a positive focus for her obsessive nature.

 

I keep thinking that when younger dd learns to read she may find a mental and emotional pressure valve in books as older dd did, but so far progress is slow. Pulling out a book and reading to her will sometimes help her calm down when she is falling apart. I have even turned on an audio book for her in the middle of the night when she was too anxious/scared/worked up to sleep. It gives her brain something to focus on to pull her out of the emotional cycle.

 

When considering medication, you definitely want a good child psychiatrist, I would not rely on a pediatrician to handle mental health issues.

[LMV]

More eclectic thoughts:

*I also thought of PANDAS as I read this.  If this is PANDAS then SSRIs for the OCD along with CBT is the recommended treatment.  In severe and unresponsive cases IVIG may be helpful. If you're looking for more information the NIMH has a good summary of the current research and recommendations. [PANDAS-NIMH]

 

*With the exception of the state of NM which grants some prescriptive authority to some therapists, therapists can't prescribe unless they are also physicians (or I suppose if they are midlevel providers who have prescriptive privileges and a supervising physician who is comfortable with them prescribing in this area).  For this reason, I would push for evaluation by a child psychiatrist.  If the child psychiatrist also feels that medications aren't indicated then great but I worry you aren't really getting a full picture of all of the treatment options until you have had her seen by child psychiatry.

 

*I understand the reluctance for medications and it is true that there are definitely risks involved but at the same time withholding medications the child really needs carries significant risk as well.  I'll be honest I had real reservations with putting DFD5 on an antidepressant when she was four but the pediatrician had pretty much ruled out all other possible explanations and two different child psychiatrists both felt that a carefully monitored trial was the best option for her so DH and I went ahead with it.  She has gone from a sad and miserable four year old who couldn't function and was basically a living doll to an active five year who laughs, smiles, runs and loves us, her siblings, and of course her sheep. There was a great little kid buried behind all of the reactive depression and I question if we would have ever met her if we hadn't taken a chance with the Fluoxetine.

 

Best wishes and I hope you find help soon.

[Cindyz]

Have you checked into the Feingold diet?  It has worked for many friends.  I would try that before medication.

[LMV]

 

When considering medication, you definitely want a good child psychiatrist, I would not rely on a pediatrician to handle mental health issues.

 

We were posting at the same time but I completely agree with this (unless of course the pediatrician is a triple boarder and then technically they are a child psychiatrist and a pediatrician).  I will add that it is very important to also rule out the medical/organic causes as well.  Ideally you also have a good pediatrician who did that before referring to child psychiatry.  In some cases when things are a little complicated the child psychiatrist and pediatrician may need to work together a little and in other cases the pediatrician may do some of the medication monitoring aspects in between child psychiatry visits especially if the child psychiatrist is further away or if they are in a state where there are a dearth of child psychiatrists.

[Alte Veste Academy]

:grouphug:

[NorthwestMom]

Gently - no matter what the cause, your sweet DD is being tortured by these thoughts. She is tortured and fearful every night. Her brain is simply not working right, she has no control over this. Please, please get her to a child psychiatrist who can prescribe the meds she needs to have a healthy and fear-free life. It will not hurt her to TRY meds and see if they work, but continuing to try to manage this with less-intrusive coping skills will not get the result she needs. She should continue therapy while taking the meds that will help suppress these thoughts.

 

Really, to me as an outsider, this sounds pretty urgent. No 7yo should be waking up multiple times a night with such violent thoughts - it really emphasizes how far from normal her brain is functioning. You sound like a wonderful mother to get up and comfort her every time. Best wishes to you all. I hope you will update us with her condition, whatever you decide to do.  :grouphug:  :grouphug:  :grouphug:

[gardenmom5]

are you taking her to someone who is guiding you on supplements, or just 'guessing' what will help her?

 

I would strongly urge a naturopath who is experienced in this area.

 

My son was listed as asd, possibly add and ocd by the nearby university asd clinic.  lots of anxiety.  His response to supplements tailored to him by looking at his blood test results of what he was deficient in has been phenomenal.  some of the doses that have worked for *him* have been well over the "recommended" amount on the label.  

also - too much melatonin can cause nightmares.

[Kim in Appalachia]

Her therapist (whom our pediatrician recommended) really wants to avoid meds (I do to).  I love her.  She is lovely, she really supports our homeschooling and dd adores her.  BUT, I don't see any progress.  DD's anxieties, insomnia, triggers, anger etc. rule our life.  I feel like our therapist is addressing it with a nerf gun.  Part of the problem is that dd is ashamed of her thoughts and behavior and doesn't share with the therapist as much as she should.  She is a delightful, charming and intelligent girl.  I think that the therapist looks at the sweet little thing in piggy tails who puts on a brave show sitting in the office and just doesn't get exactly how troubled she is.

 

 

You are probably already doing this, but reassure your dd that she should not be ashamed of her thoughts.  If she does not tell the therapist, the therapist can not help her.  You need to be clear and firm with your dd that this is an illness, and unless the doctor knows all of the symptoms, she can't help her.  

 

I can understand not wanting to use meds on such a young child.  Really, they are untested as far as long term results/affects, but if your dd continues not being able to sleep you need to do something different.  Lack of sleep will make things worse.  

 

And  :grouphug: .  

[LLMom]

I would try meds.  Mental illness is an illness like diabetes and others so there is no shame in taking them, and the benefits outweigh the risks in many cases.  There is such a push for those with mental illness to avoid meds, but it is a chemical imbalance not just something you snap out of.

[MercyA]

I don't know how her diet is, but red dye #40 gives one of my children extreme insomnia, so maybe you can try eliminating it from her diet and seeing if that makes a difference.

 

:iagree: but I would go further and remove all artificial colorings, artificial flavorings, preservatives, and msg-like ingredients from her diet.  I've known this to make a huge difference for some children.  A list of things to avoid:

• Colors: all artificial colors (including Red 2, Red 3, Red 40, Blue 1, Blue 2, Yellow 5, Yellow 6, Green 3); annatto (a natural color)
• Preservatives: benzoates and benzoic acid; BHA, BHT, and TBHQ; gallates; nitrates and nitrites; parabens; propionates and propionic acid; sorbates and sorbic acid; sulphites, bisulphites, metabisulphites and sulphur dioxide.  (Note: low-fat and skim milk contain added vitamin A, which is preserved by BHA. Use whole milk instead.)
• Flavors and flavor enhancers: all artificial flavors; vanillin (artificial vanilla); disodium salts; glutamates, diglutamates, and glutamic acid; MSG; "natural flavors" (often chemically identical to artifical flavors)
• Artificial sweeteners: aspartame (Nutrasweet, Equal) and sucralose (Splenda)
• Ingredients containing processed free glutamic acid (like MSG): see http://www.truthinlabeling.org/hiddensources.html

I also second the recommendation for the book mentioned upthread, What to Do When Your Brain Gets Stuck.

[Miss Mousie]

You are probably already doing this, but reassure your dd that she should not be ashamed of her thoughts.  If she does not tell the therapist, the therapist can not help her.  You need to be clear and firm with your dd that this is an illness, and unless the doctor knows all of the symptoms, she can't help her.  

 

I can understand not wanting to use meds on such a young child.  Really, they are untested as far as long term results/affects, but if your dd continues not being able to sleep you need to do something different.  Lack of sleep will make things worse.  

 

And  :grouphug: .  

 

I agree about her feeling ashamed.  You mentioned that she feels that way with her father, too.  :(   Consider asking your DH to talk with her, let her know he knows all about it and loves her completely no matter what.

 

I also agree with PPs who talked about diet; try to keep a food diary for her, noting the good/bad nights that followed, too.  I realize the last thing you need is one more task to do, but you may find a pattern there that will help her.

 

Lots of hugs to you both.  You are certainly a strong and loving mom!

[freeindeed]

((Hugs)) My youngest child is on anti-anxiety meds. She has been for over a year and we finally have our lives back. For over half the year of 2012, our lives were hell. I know exactly what you mean about not being able to go on. I will also gently suggest that you reconsider meds. I hope you and your daughter will find peace soon.

[alef]

Gently - no matter what the cause, your sweet DD is being tortured by these thoughts. She is tortured and fearful every night. Her brain is simply not working right, she has no control over this. Please, please get her to a child psychiatrist who can prescribe the meds she needs to have a healthy and fear-free life. It will not hurt her to TRY meds and see if they work, but continuing to try to manage this with less-intrusive coping skills will not get the result she needs. She should continue therapy while taking the meds that will help suppress these thoughts.

 

Really, to me as an outsider, this sounds pretty urgent. No 7yo should be waking up multiple times a night with such violent thoughts - it really emphasizes how far from normal her brain is functioning. You sound like a wonderful mother to get up and comfort her every time. Best wishes to you all. I hope you will update us with her condition, whatever you decide to do.  :grouphug:  :grouphug:  :grouphug:

I completely agree that medication may be necessary and should be given careful consideration, but I disagree with your statement that it cannot hurt to try. Psychiatric medications are not something to be treated lightly. They often have problematic side effects, up to and including increasing suicidality in teens. They change the delicate regulation of molecules in the brain in ways that can be helpful but can also make it difficult to stop a medication once started. Our understanding of and ability to regulate brain functions is far from cut-and-dried.

 

Medication can be life changing and life saving, but it also has many potential drawbacks. It may be necessary, but should not be viewed as harmless.

[lil' maids in a row]

I understand that it sounds (and often is) very extreme, please trust that we have been working with her pediatrician and her pediatrician recommended therapist.  I agree that at this point it isn't enough, but there have been times when things seemed to be getting better.  We have also been telling ourselves "next time they will do something different."  We have been doing our best to address this, but we are in over our head.  Which is why I really appreciate everyone's advice.

 

We have over and over again reassured her that her thoughts are not her own.  That her brain is just making up scary things and that she has no reason to be embarrassed.  Nevertheless, it is a difficult thing for a 7 year old to understand.

 

I feel a bit stuck with her diet.  She is an extremely picky eater.  We don't do a lot of junk food, but it is difficult to do much limiting of her diet because it feels very limited already.  I will revisit the idea though.

 

I love the idea of looking into a naturopath.  We are willing to pursue medication, but to medicate a growing brain sounds terrifying (letting things continue is equally terrifying).  I am going to make an appointment and have a very frank discussion with her pediatrician.  Hopefully we will walk out of the office with something to help her sleep and a recommendation for a childhood pych.  If not I will be looking for a second opinion.

 

I got out of bed!  We are headed to play at the lake for the afternoon.  I am chalking that up as a success for today.  Thank you all so much for helping me today!   

[kbutton]

Her nightmares seemed to decrease when we tried a gluten free diet, though the diet fell by the wayside when we were traveling and I haven't been able to reestablish it. I don't know that gluten in and of itself affects her, but I do suspect something in what we were eating had an impact.

 

 

 

Please don't underestimate the possible severity of gluten and how it can make your child feel/behave. Even tiny amounts of gluten make me feel horrible, and anxiety is one of my possible bad reactions. Now that I am extremely careful about all gluten, seeing how a tiny amount makes me feel is very eye-opening.

 

Best wishes to the OP and the others who've chimed in with their stories. We know a family that is dealing with PANDAS as well as dietary issues (gluten/casein) and some other stuff. It's a long road to find out what's wrong, esp. if it's several things.

 

To the OP--If you can find a doctor who will back you up and give you guidance, you might be able to try a comprehensive elimination diet designed to find multiple possible food triggers all at once. I would recommend that type of diet over removing only salicylates or only gluten, etc. If it's an issue that is triggered by multiple dietary things, removing foods piecemeal is not going to help (if both gluten and casein are triggers, you'd potentially have to remove both to see if it helps). And if you work with both a pediatrician and a pediatric psychiatrist, maybe they will be willing to be on standby to prescribe meds if necessary, while helping you try the dietary options too. A doctor that is open-minded can help step you and support you through meds, allergy testing, sleep studies, etc. rather than trying it all on your own.

 

[BlsdMama]

((Hugs.))

 

I have never had depression our emotional issues in my whole life.

 

Last year they gave me progesterone injections weekly and I want getting sleep as two of my babies were night nursers. I was a basket case, couldn't focus, hyper emotional, just a mess. I had to completely change the way I night parented from everything I believed to function and cope.

 

Hormones and sleep... they are wacky, wild things. Try medication. If it helps, spectacular. If it doesn't, you try the next thing. What is a good for for one family is not for another. NO guilt. Be the best family you guys can be, maybe that includes therapy, maybe it includes medication, but I'd you get to a plane where you function well, that's what is important.

[NorthwestMom]

I completely agree that medication may be necessary and should be given careful consideration, but I disagree with your statement that it cannot hurt to try. Psychiatric medications are not something to be treated lightly. They often have problematic side effects, up to and including increasing suicidality in teens. They change the delicate regulation of molecules in the brain in ways that can be helpful but can also make it difficult to stop a medication once started. Our understanding of and ability to regulate brain functions is far from cut-and-dried.

 

Medication can be life changing and life saving, but it also has many potential drawbacks. It may be necessary, but should not be viewed as harmless.

 

Well, I DO agree with everything you have stated here. Absolutely. And I have had two family members on psych meds that we had to adjust until we minimized side effects and maximized benefits, so I do have some experience with that and it is heart-wrenching and scary. I get that.

 

But, I think that it is potentially less harmful to try meds prescribed by a child psychiatrist, who would have thorough knowledge of a developing brain and also experience gained from working with many other children and their reactions to medication, than to continue to manage it on her own with changes to diet or other simple interventions. It's WAY out of the norm for such a young child to have such violent, intrusive thoughts, especially when she has been sheltered from that kind of content. She is being controlled by these terrible thoughts. The OP states that if the child knew about suicide, she might have tried it. It sounds to me like she MIGHT try it anyway, because if her brain is imagining beheadings and the like, suicide is probably going to show up sooner or later. In my opinion, this child is in CRISIS and something drastic needs to be done. 

 

And OP, I just want to second Joanne and say that none of this is anything you did, you sound like a wonderful mom.  :grouphug:  :grouphug:

[magnificent_baby]

First,  :grouphug:  :grouphug:  :grouphug:

 

Saying this gently, I would really advise against the melatonin. Not that it makes me an expert but I'm taking a pharmacology course and my professor (a PharmD) stressed that children should not take this supplement. In addition, you do not know how much you are getting in each dose, as the factories are unregulated and not overlooked by FDA. Supplements in general would make me nervous with kids. 

 

Here is more information from the University of Maryland Medical Center, I did just a quick glance, but it did mention vivid dreams, nightmares and depression as possible side effects (among others). 

 

http://umm.edu/health/medical/altmed/supplement/melatonin

 

I hope you find something that works well for her. Some therapy offices have nurse practitioners as well. This may be an option for you for meds. I have researched the Fiengold (sp?) diet in the past for one of my children, it sounds pretty effective for some families.   

[Hen]

{{hugs}} can you arrange for two nights away for yourself to rest?

 

I would encourage you to ask her Dr. about medication.  I finally sought help for depression, I have tried everything to avoid medication and nothing really helped much, some things helped a little, like exercise but nothing helped like the medication has. I wish I had done it 20 years ago.  I was afraid it would turn me into a not-caring zombie person or make me kind of crazy if they got the levels wrong, or make me not me somehow/ less creative, but it hasn't done any of those things, I am just better able to handle things, and not plunged so deeply into despair over things.  I also noticed at night, my thoughts have slowed down, I was suspecting I had ADD, and I would stay up late because I have trouble falling asleep- now my thoughts are less like lightning in my head and I also noticed that I would get really anxious on the way to newish things and I noticed that is gone now too.  I didn't think I was an anxious person, but now that the stomach churning anxiety is gone on the drive to a new place, I realize that yeah,  I was really anxious a lot of the time.  anyways, praying for you and your daughter and I would really encourage you to at least ask about different medications and how they might help.  It is really the pits to have your own mind working against you in life.

[Ottakee]

I would strongly urge you to seek out a pediatric psychiatrist ASAP.  It sounds like there might be some mental illness issues going on here and they DO cycle---get better, get worse, etc.  Very often OCD is a symptom of something else.

 

My dd had thoughts like that at age 5.  It was terrible as she had never even seen things like that before and was begging for help.  She is now on medication and doing great.  Meds aren't to be taken lightly and you want someone well versed in using them with small kids as they do have growing brains.  There are risks though to not doing anything.  Besides the family dynamics, her self esteem and self worth, etc. but also letting a child brain run out of control (similar to a diabetic with out of control blood sugars) can make it harder to regular it.  Earlier treatment often means less treatment needed (as in lower doses of meds, not as many, etc.)

 

I am not saying she has bipolar but www.bpkids.org has a place to "find a doctor" on their website and they have ones well experienced with young kids.

 

For us, we had to do the meds for the therapy to work.  Our psychiatrist also did blood work, a sleep study, EEG, and other tests to help rule out other issues that might be compounding or causing what we were seeing.

[Ottakee]

We were posting at the same time but I completely agree with this (unless of course the pediatrician is a triple boarder and then technically they are a child psychiatrist and a pediatrician).  I will add that it is very important to also rule out the medical/organic causes as well.  Ideally you also have a good pediatrician who did that before referring to child psychiatry.  In some cases when things are a little complicated the child psychiatrist and pediatrician may need to work together a little and in other cases the pediatrician may do some of the medication monitoring aspects in between child psychiatry visits especially if the child psychiatrist is further away or if they are in a state where there are a dearth of child psychiatrists.

 

Our peds psychiatrist is excellent in this area.  SHE is the one that sent my dd to the neurologist for an EEG (came back positive for seizures), did thyroid blood tests (came back positive for hypothyroid), did a urinalysis (came back positive for a bladder infection even though dd was not complaining), etc.

 

That all said, we STILL had mental health issues that needed medication and a top notch peds psychiatrist to help us with.  This is way beyond your pediatrician unless like LMV said they are also a peds. psychiatrist.  They might be a wonderful ped but psychiatry is a whole new ball game.

 

Meds are scary but can be totally life changing for a child if they are needed.

[Mergath]

It seems that a predisposition to mental illness - which can be a brain malfunction issue - is present. The brain may need some help to level the playing field and access skills learned in therapy.

 

Edited to add: I would eliminate or severely limit access to The Bible and I would monitor church/Sunday school. The topics can be very disturbing especially to a brain predisposed to dramatic processing.

 

:iagree:   Can't agree with this part enough.  I have OCD (mostly obsessing and intrusive thoughts, with very few compulsive behaviors) and looking back, religion was a huge part of what triggered my first issues as a teen.  I was obsessed with the idea that I was going to end up in hell.  (It didn't help that my mom made me attend an AoG church where the youth program basically spent every Wednesday night elaborating on the specific horrors that would await people in hell.)  I was up every night for I don't know how long, scouring books and looking for something to prove that I wasn't going to end up in hell.  For someone with this kind of issue, there's enough material in the bible to keep you awake at night for several lifetimes. :(

 

OP, I would really urge you to consider medication.  I'm not a huge fan of meds for kids, and wouldn't go there except as a last resort.  However, I've also lived through something similar to what your dd is going through, both as a teen and as an adult.  (Remind me sometime to tell you all about the period I went through a couple years back where I was convinced there were malevolent ghosts living in my attic that were going to kill me in my sleep. *sigh*)  When you get to that point where you're not sleeping and living in constant torment because you've totally lost control of your brain, it's almost impossible to get to the point where you can even try to think around the OCD without medication.

[LMV]

Some more eclectic thoughts:

*I'm a bit wary of melatonin in general and more wary of melatonin in kids.  

*While I realize that the alternative medicine/naturopathic/homeopathic realm is very vested in various supplements and there have been at least some anecdotal reports of success, I do think it is important to realize that supplements also have the potential for side effects, toxicity (all fat soluble vitamins can and will accumulate if given in excessive doses), and dangerous interactions (both with other supplements and with prescription medications).  Personally, I would feel more comfortable putting my child on a medication that had been studied and approved by the FDA (as Fluoxetine would be for OCD in a child your daughter's age) than an unregulated supplement or herbal product.  I realize that not all will share my opinion and I respect other's right to make their own decisions regarding this.  I suppose I would just suggest that  a minimum I think that all prescribing physicians need to have a full list of all medications/supplements/herbal products the patient is taking.  

*In spite of my perhaps bias against excessive supplement use, I do think there is merit in the pediatrician or child psychiatrist ruling out some potential deficiency states that may explain symptoms if they haven't already.  In the event of documented deficiency, then using supplements to correct the deficiency (with some monitoring and follow up) would be very reasonable.

*If you decide to try elimination diets please make sure you aren't setting the child up for malnutrition or specific nutrient deficiencies in the course of this.  Some of these deficiencies can cause their own symptoms that mimic psychiatric diagnoses which may confound the problem.

 

Good Luck!

 

 

[Amy in NH]

I agree with PP who warn against melatonin.  It can cause horrible and vivid nightmares.

[mommymilkies]

As someone who has had OCD since a child-diagnosed, I will recommend considering medication.  I wish my parents would have considered me going on it years before.  I go through cycles-sometimes my OCD is like background noise and not really an issue.  Then sometimes it gets really bad.  Medication helps so much.  The side effects and possible risks are substantially smaller to ME than the pain of going with OCD untreated for so long.