Tell me I'm not alone, horrible family Xmas

[Meadowlark]

im sitting here about ready to cry because we had our family Xmas today and it was horrible. I won't go into the years of drama with my family, but to make it short, I have a sociopath brother and his wife is just like him. My other brother committed suicide 5 years ago, and ever since, my parents have clung to my living brother as he is "all they have left". They can do know wrong and are very manipulative with my parents. They have been cruel and abusive to us in the past, they ignore our kids,and it's all behind my parents back.

 

We limit our contact with them as much as possible, but my mom loves to have a big, family Xmas. So we put on our happy faces and go. Imagine a group of 6 adults, all sitting in the same room, but only my parents talking. For 5 whopping hours. I know, we should've left long before. To make matters worse, they didn't bring any gifts for our kids this year, and we have always exchanged gifts for the kids in the past. We brought generous gifts for their 4 kids, even teens who are not even my brothers. Um, hello I guess we missed the memo on that. I felt like they were secretly laughing at us.

 

What's worse, my parents are desperate for everyone to get along and be one happy family, and it's not going to happen. How do I survive these get togethere? Its torture. I feel like I could seriously lose my mind. I can barely be in the same room with these abusive people. What's worse, if we say anything or act anything but jolly, we are called the black sheep by my parents for creating conflict. It's a no win situation for us.

 

I keep thinking that everyone has a great family...eating, drinking, having fun. If you do, you're very blessed. For the rest of us, the holidays are a nightmare and incredibly sad.

[mom2scouts]

I'm sorry.  You DO NOT have to put up with that.    I'm giving you permission to skip the "big, family Christmas" next year and go somewhere fun with your family.  How about a ski trip, cabin rental, or quiet day at home? Do you really want to teach your children that it's OK for family to be unkind, manipulative, or abusive just because they are family?

[Annie G]

You're not alone. I won't go into details but our family is as dysfunctional as yours sounds. Thankfully, we live 850 miles away so visits are limited.  Having said that, we leave Monday for a visit with both my family and dh's. We play a game between us as to whether my family or his is the most weird. Sometimes it's a tie, though each family contributes some pretty worthy entries.  I have three siblings and dh just has one...so my family usually wins because there's more to choose from. 

 

It can be hard to hear/read about everyone's fabulous family. 

[bettyandbob]

I'm sorry. My Christmas made me sad too.

 

Sometime, a few months from now I think you need to ask why your brother is "all they have left" when you and your family is available.

 

Also, I'd find a way to shorten the visit. We spent 2 hours with my parents and my sister's family and we get along. 2 hours was enough and we had to meet dh extended family. I'd make a plan for why leaving early or arriving late was necessary and stick with it.

[Plink]

hugs

[TCB]

I'm sorry you had such a horrible day. Your parents are very lucky to have you, as there are not many people who would be prepared to sacrifice so much in order to make them happy. But you should only do this for them if you feel able to cope with this. If it is too much to bear than I don't think anyone would fault you in any way for saying "no more".

[OrganicAnn]

I know it is difficult, but I would not want to repeat a day like that.     Every family has some dysfunction, but that sound miserable.   Do you really think that is what your parents want?    Were your parents embarrassed that your kids didn't get any presents?   

 

Could you do separate days with your parents next year.   

 

 

[Moxie]

I decided a long time ago that, if I don't want to be with someone on a Tuesday night, I sure as heck am not going to be with them on a special holiday!! It is okay to cut all contact!! They will talk about you but that's their issue. Make good memories with your kids.

[Meadowlark]

I'm sorry. You DO NOT have to put up with that. I'm giving you permission to skip the "big, family Christmas" next year and go somewhere fun with your family. How about a ski trip, cabin rental, or quiet day at home? Do you really want to teach your children that it's OK for family to be unkind, manipulative, or abusive just because they are family?

in regard to the last line, I think and hope my kids are oblivious. They are still young, so it's a little easier to hide from them. We are very careful to never discuss this situation in front of them, or speak ill of anyone. But, I know kids are perceptive and I'm sure they will start catching on. Thanks for the permission. We really only go for the kids. My brother has 2 kids about my older 2's age, and they LOVE playing with them and all disappear into the basement and have a ton of fun. Plus, my mom does a lot of fun things (big meal, fills stockings, bakes a TON) and I will sacrifice my own happiness for a day so they can have the memories of Christmas at grandmas. But, having said that, it's almost to the point that I can't do it anymore, so I'm not sure what to do next.

[Tammi K]

 

We limit our contact with them as much as possible, but my mom loves to have a big, family Xmas. So we put on our happy faces and go.

 

What's worse, my parents are desperate for everyone to get along and be one happy family, and it's not going to happen. How do I survive these get togethere? Its torture.

 

I say this respectfully and with a big hug :grouphug: .

 

Why do you feel that you must go? Why do you feel that you are responsible for protecting your parents from the reality of the situation?  Why do you feel it's your job to create a big family Christmas for you mother where it isn't inclined to exist?

 

What is the worst thing that would happen if you didn't go? If you told your parents what is really happening? If you stood up for yourself and refused to be treated the way you are?

 

If the worst thing that could happen would be that they no longer include you, would that be so bad? Is the pain of being WITH these people better than the grief of being without?

 

Only you can make the decision to let them treat you this way and only you can stop it.

 

(Written by someone who has not seen or spoken to her mother in over 8 years because I realized that no one but me was making me play the role I was playing in the family drama.)

[Meadowlark]

I decided a long time ago that, if I don't want to be with someone on a Tuesday night, I sure as heck am not going to be with them on a special holiday!! It is okay to cut all contact!! They will talk about you but that's their issue. Make good memories with your kids.

It would break my parents hearts if we didn't go. It's complicated, but they are very fragile after my brothers death. I know I cannot be responsible for healing them, but I also feel that I should just suck it up and get through it. I think my kids would be heartbroken not having Christmas at grandmas too, somim not sure how to get around that.

 

Also, remember that according to my parents, my brother and wife do no wrong. So in their eyes, it would be us disconnecting from a perfectly normal, healthy family holiday. We live 1 mile apart, a d see them often. It would create more tension than there already is.

 

And I doubt my parents notices the gift thing. DH thinks I should say something, I'm not so sure. What do you all think?

[Cammie]

I think it is time for you to make your family Christmas what you and your children need.  You don't need to go to these gatherings.  Let your parents and your brother's family get together.  You and your children can start new traditions and have a wonderful time.  If your parents want to come, and you are comfortable with that, then let them come.  You do NOT have to include your brother and his family.  You do not deserve to be treated badly, no one does.  It is your responsibility to make sure that your family's Christmas is what you want it to be.  I know it might be a hard conversation and I am a confrontation avoider so I appreciate the difficulty.  But give yourself permission to be happy.  Explain it however your mother will understand it.  Don't make it about your brother if she will get defensive.  Make it about you, your kids, your needs.  :grouphug:

[readinmom]

I'm sorry, but you cannot keep doing this.  You are kidding yourself if you think your dc do not sense what is going on.  You need to set your own family traditions.  Invite your parents to participate with you (even brother), and if they choose not to accept, it was their choice.  I was at a writing conference and during the break, the speaker was meeting with a few of us.  He said a phrase that has really been a sticking point for my life:  "You have to pull your own happiness wagon.  If you fill it with bad things, you're still the one pulling it.  Make wise choices; be happy and pull your own wagon." 

 

You are allowing yourself to be manipulated.  Would you do this to your kids on the pretense of being a happy family Christmas?  It sounds not too happy, in my opinion.  Please distance yourself, and set your boundaries.  The love won't be any less.  Love is not a contest.  It's a feeling. 

[Meadowlark]

I say this respectfully and with a big hug :grouphug: .

 

Why do you feel that you must go? Why do you feel that you are responsible for protecting your parents from the reality of the situation? Why do you feel it's your job to create a big family Christmas for you mother where it isn't inclined to exist?

 

What is the worst thing that would happen if you didn't go? If you told your parents what is really happening? If you stood up for yourself and refused to be treated the way you are?

 

If the worst thing that could happen would be that they no longer include you, would that be so bad? Is the pain of being WITH these people better than the grief of being without?

 

Only you can make the decision to let them treat you this way and only you can stop it.

 

(Written by someone who has not seen or spoken to her mother in over 8 years because I realized that no one but me was making me play the role I was playing in the family drama.)

Good thoughts here. Okay, backpeddling...so, 2 years ago, I severed all ties. I almost sunk into a depression about it and decided for my mental health, I had to let them go. Did not go over well with my parents. They say they don't blame us, but they do-even if they don't realize it. My moms dreams of a happy family were shattered...by US. We told them of the verbal abuse and written abusive letter, and they still couldn't acknowledge what these people have done to us. No empathy, zero. All they know is we caused a family rift and they will most likely never forgive us for that. Meanwhile, my brother and wife are calm, cool and collected. They never get upset, never get emotional (sociopath, remember) and act like we are the crazy ones. My dad denies he is a sociopath, even thought my brother himself admitted it! He later said he was "joking"...umm, who jokes about that? Last year, they scheduled their daughters bday party ON my sons actual bday. Hers was 2 days earlier. My parents went to her party, even though my mom is my sons godmother. BIG explosion that was. Just a few months ago, my parents went to Germany with my brother for 10 days. So..you can see where this is going. It's crazy. We honestly think my brothers death has really made my parents...well, not all there.

[Meadowlark]

I think it is time for you to make your family Christmas what you and your children need. You don't need to go to these gatherings. Let your parents and your brother's family get together. You and your children can start new traditions and have a wonderful time. If your parents want to come, and you are comfortable with that, then let them come. You do NOT have to include your brother and his family. You do not deserve to be treated badly, no one does. It is your responsibility to make sure that your family's Christmas is what you want it to be. I know it might be a hard conversation and I am a confrontation avoider so I appreciate the difficulty. But give yourself permission to be happy. Explain it however your mother will understand it. Don't make it about your brother if she will get defensive. Make it about you, your kids, your needs. :grouphug:

The interesting thing about the gatherings, is that the verbal abuse stuff happened in the past. So there really is nothing going on now except extreme awkwardness. You could cut the tension with a knife. Nobody talks, nobody even looks at each other. We eat, clean up (imagine how fun that is with my mom and SIL), open presents and then the kids play while we adults sit around and...well, try not to be in the same room. But, my mom told me and my brother this year that she didn't want us leaving the room when the other walked in because that isn't respectful of them in their home. Like I said, we go because of the kids and that is huge for me.

[Meadowlark]

Here's another thought, interested in hearing what you all think. In the past, we've gotten gifts for all of the adults and kids. It was getting to be too much for my mom so she said she wanted to draw names. Of course, my brother/wife agreed to it. We did not want to. They did not appreciate us "trying to tell them how to run things at their house" and that "it's their house and they decide what we do". So, after thinking quite hard about the ramifications of this, we decided we would just go along with it, although we really didn't see the point in getting gifts for people we despise. So we drew names. I got my SIL and my brother got me. There was a $50 set point. We got her a $50 gc, and I got a gift that I saw on sale t kohls for $40, without any discounts. Then, they didn't bring gifts for our kids.

 

The question is, if we go next year,is it disrespectful of me to say we will not participate in this drawing name business,OR is it perfectly okay for me to say "no way?"

 

As you can see there are many layers to this mess. I appreciate all of your thoughts. I've been dealing with this dysfunction for nearly 10 years with my brother. We are really down to only seeing each other at Xmas and thanksgiving every other year. I'm just trying to figure out how/if I can get through these family functions for the sake of my kids. Oh, and if you asked my kids, yes, I think they would say its a happy Christmas as they are mostly running around with their cousins on a sugar high...

[Jean in Newcastle]

You are describing a lot of controlling behavior and a lot of it is from your ILs and not the brother and SIL (since I assume that it is the ILs who are saying that "it's their house and they decide what to do".)  

[Meadowlark]

You are describing a lot of controlling behavior and a lot of it is from your ILs and not the brother and SIL (since I assume that it is the ILs who are saying that "it's their house and they decide what to do".)

Yep, you are 100% correct. My mom has control issues, especially when it comes to me. She always feels like I am trying to tell her what she can or cannot do. So if she is going to have the big, family Christmas, it is going to be by HER rules.

 

I saw a therapist a few months ago for this, and she thought I was kind of the outcast of the family because I don't play by the rules. I don't accept abusive behavior, I call people out on things...this all translates into "Amy causes problems in our otherwise happy family". They would much rather pretend things are normal, than face the truth or even worse, lose the only son they have left. So, they are certainly not going to ruffle their feathers, or they might lose them. My mom admitted it. But, are they willing to lose me? Acc. To my therapist, I am not a threat. They know I will always be there and so they are not as concerned about making me happy. This has all been discussed and many tears have been shed. It's all been out in the open. It is what it is. Does it mean I am a doormat? No, I don't think so. If I was being verbally abused at these family get togethere, NO WAY I would be there. It's not like that...it's just the aftermath of the explosion now.

[Jean in Newcastle]

So. . . your mother has NPD (narcissistic personality disorder) and so does  your brother?  Having a family scapegoat can be part of that dysfunction.

[Jenny in Florida]

I keep thinking that everyone has a great family...eating, drinking, having fun. If you do, you're very blessed. For the rest of us, the holidays are a nightmare and incredibly sad.

 

I'm so sorry you had a rotten day.

 

If it helps at all (misery loving company and all of that), no, not everyone has a great family. We went no-contact with my family of origin a number of years ago, which prompted a whole new level of pain and suffering for a while (which could, in theory, erupt again). In the long run, however, I still believe it was the best thing we could have done for my own mental health and emotional stability.

 

Even before we cut ties, I had sworn off big get-togethers with my extended family after more unpleasant experiences than I care to describe or even remember.

 

My husband's parents, who were never anything less than wonderful to me, are no longer with us. One of his three brothers died a couple of years ago, and one is out of touch most of the time. The third brother is married and stable, but lives on the other side of the country. We see him and his family once every year or so.

 

Consequently, our holidays have pretty much always been just the four of us. I do have times when it all seems very quiet and small, and I can get weepy about the fantasy of a large, joyous, chaotic, multigenerational celebration (especially when I read posts here in the weeks before Thanksgiving and Christmas). But mostly I've come to cherish those special times and the quirky, personal traditions we've built and nurtured.

 

I've decided to hold out hope for the future, that someday I may be the grandmother hosting my adult kids and their partners and children for the holidays. And I'm determined to be the mother and grandmother I never got a chance to experience.

[Guest submarines]

So, after thinking quite hard about the ramifications of this, we decided we would just go along with it, although we really didn't see the point in getting gifts for people we despise. So we drew names. I got my SIL and my brother got me. There was a $50 set point. We got her a $50 gc, and I got a gift that I saw on sale t kohls for $40, without any discounts. Then, they didn't bring gifts for our kids.

 

 

The real issue here is that you despise them and they are toxic for you, and you should distance yourself, even if you will be "blamed." That your gift was $10 more than what you received is irrelevant in your situation. If you want to make it relevant, then I don't think it is a big deal that he spent $40 on you instead of fifty. It is not that he got you a scarf from a dollar store.

 

[Meadowlark]

The real issue here is that you despise them and they are toxic for you, and you should distance yourself, even if you will be "blamed." That your gift was $10 more than what you received is irrelevant in your situation. If you want to make it relevant, then I don't think it is a big deal that he spent $40 on you instead of fifty. It is not that he got you a scarf from a dollar store.

 

True...after I reread, I realized how money is SOOO not the issue. There have been issues involving money in the past, but I'll spare you from that story :-)

 

[Catwoman]

You are your own worst enemy in this situation.

 

Whether or not you realize it, you seem incredibly desperate for your parents love and approval -- and they continually slap you in the face by choosing your brother, his wife, and their children over you and your family.

 

But you keep going back for more.

 

Do you really believe that your parents are so stupid and clueless that they didn't notice that your brother didn't bother to bring gifts for your children? Seriously??? I think you're deluding yourself, and it sounds like your dh might agree with me.

 

You seem like such a kind person, but unfortunately your kindness and desire to be a good daughter and please your parents is making you absolutely miserable. I think you need to sit down with your parents and explain exactly how you feel, and if they continue to support your brother and discount your feelings, it may very well be time to walk away from your brother and your parents, for your own mental health. It's awful to feel unloved and unimportant, and quite frankly, your parents don't deserve the kind of dedication and devotion you're showing them. Hey, of course they're upset about the death of your other brother -- but so are you! If anything, your parents should be showing extra love toward their surviving children, and that is clearly not happening.

 

I am not one to suggest therapy on a whim, but in your case, I think you might really benefit from talking with an unbiased third party about why you keep putting up with such awful behavior from your brother and your parents. It sounds like your dh would Iike to see you put your foot down and set some serious boundaries with them, yet you don't seem willing to do that, so I strongly suggest you get some independent feedback so perhaps you will start to realize that your needs and feelings are just as valid and important as those of your parents and brother, and that you will be able to take a stand and let them know you will no longer tolerate their incredible disrespect.

 

YOU DESERVE BETTER.

 

:grouphug: :grouphug: :grouphug:

[NASDAQ]

My mother was in this situation for many years. Her BIL (my uncle) wouldn't speak to her, it was all very unpleasant, but she kept spending every Christmas with my father's family because that big-happy-family thing was important to his mother, and therefore to him.

 

I wish she had felt more able to tell my father that she, too, deserved a comfortable Christmas with people who valued her and her happiness.

 

I'm sorry your Christmas sucked. I hope next year is better.

[Hakg]

I'm sorry your Christmas was so awful.  I haven't read the other responses, but just wanted to say we had a number of horrible Christmases with my in-laws, until one day, I decided we were no longer spending this joyous occasion with a bunch of miserable so and so's.  It was not positive for our DS, and I think that was the main reason DH and I decided to never spend Christmas with them together as a family again.

 

For the past 5 years we have visited with *my* relatively normal family a couple of days before Christmas, and then on Christmas day we go 3 hours away to a resort in the country (just for a few days) so we feel like we are celebrating Christmas.

 

All I can say is, if family get togethers are torture, just don't do them.  For yourself, but for your kids mainly.

[bettyandbob]

Your dc are learning from you and they are learning from your parents and brother's family. You can say they are oblivious, but actually they are learning. Besides seeing how you interact with the adults it doesn't appear you have any idea what goes on in the basement when the kids " have a great time." You do know the first time one of your dc says something is not right what grandma will say? BTW the first time of your dc says something is not right may be years after things started to not be right in the cousins' playtime.

 

You need to stop being part of these games. Do not bring your dc to these people. If you must visit mom out of duty, pick a day when your brother is not and keep it short. But if you do that, I bet mom won't do stockings/presents for the kids because you aren't following the rules. So, really keep them out of your holiday season.

[mom@shiloh]

I'm trying to think of this from your mother's perspective.  If you feel that she continues to be "fragile" after your brother's death and this seems really important to her, I would tough it out for her sake.(I think this falls under the category of honoring your parents.)   And, since you say that your children also seem to enjoy the time with their cousins, that would be another reason to go.  Others have said that your kids know what's going on, but I disagree.  I think that they could be completely oblivious since they're off playing with cousins -- this is based on my experience growing up and also my children's experiences with lots of cousins at family get-togethers.  As they get older, you can open up to them more about the reality of the family relationships.  

 

Lower your expectations of the event, just expect that it's not going to be fun.  Expect that people will be unkind and be the bigger person by rising above it.  Set definite boundaries, such as, we are going to be there from 1-4 and try to keep that time busy.  Eat, clean-up, open gifts, go home.  Can you do a gift exchange with everyone?  We do that and it makes things so much easier.  Everyone has one person to buy for and one person to give to.  That way kids are included.  

 

It sounds to me as if bil and sil like to 'jerk your chain'.  Don't give them the satisfaction.  And, if your parents go to their graves without ever knowing what a miserable experience this is for us, I think that's perfectly fine as long as you can see it as a duty that you're going to do cheerfully once a year out of your love for your parents.  It's ok if you don't feel like it's out of love -- love is action, not feelings.  

 

 

[Catherine]

in regard to the last line, I think and hope my kids are oblivious. They are still young, so it's a little easier to hide from them. We are very careful to never discuss this situation in front of them, or speak ill of anyone. But, I know kids are perceptive and I'm sure they will start catching on. Thanks for the permission. We really only go for the kids. My brother has 2 kids about my older 2's age, and they LOVE playing with them and all disappear into the basement and have a ton of fun. Plus, my mom does a lot of fun things (big meal, fills stockings, bakes a TON) and I will sacrifice my own happiness for a day so they can have the memories of Christmas at grandmas. But, having said that, it's almost to the point that I can't do it anymore, so I'm not sure what to do next.

I know where you are coming from. I think it's admirable that you are hanging in there and dealing with your brother's ugliness for the sake of your mom and dad. And your second post makes it clear that there are many reasons to keep going, even though there are also reasons for leaving. Given that you plan to keep going, it makes sense to focus on these positives, and try to minimize the negatives. Maybe part of the day can be making a meal together? That way you get to spend more time with your mom, less with the brother and SIL? And perhaps there is some way to keep the time a bit shorter? I wonder if there is any way, also, to talk to your mom about your discomfort and ask her if there is a way to shorten that gathering a bit. Those are measures that you can take to gain back a bit of control of the situation without having to opt out completely. And activities to do during the gathering-anything to keep the conversation light and away from the ugly topics.

[PrincessMommy]

I think you're getting great advice.  But, if you feel like you really must go for this one occasion then please DON'T stay 5 hours.  Go late and leave as early as you can (2hrs tops).  Seriously, if you have to do it minimize the damage.  Make up an excuse of someplace you have to be (after they've planned the time).  It's only going to get worse for your children as they age. 

[maize]

Here's another thought, interested in hearing what you all think. In the past, we've gotten gifts for all of the adults and kids. It was getting to be too much for my mom so she said she wanted to draw names. Of course, my brother/wife agreed to it. We did not want to. They did not appreciate us "trying to tell them how to run things at their house" and that "it's their house and they decide what we do". So, after thinking quite hard about the ramifications of this, we decided we would just go along with it, although we really didn't see the point in getting gifts for people we despise. So we drew names. I got my SIL and my brother got me. There was a $50 set point. We got her a $50 gc, and I got a gift that I saw on sale t kohls for $40, without any discounts. Then, they didn't bring gifts for our kids.

 

The question is, if we go next year,is it disrespectful of me to say we will not participate in this drawing name business,OR is it perfectly okay for me to say "no way?"

 

...

Since you asked for opinions, I will say that on this issue I don't get what you're upset about. Drawing names or not drawing names just doesn't register as a big deal to me, neither does a slight difference in gift value. Getting upset about it sounds like making mountains out of molehills. I realize this is all in the context of other issues that make it easy to get upset over things, but the issue itself appears insignificant.

 

FWIW, my family draws names at Christmas. I sent a nice gift to my sister but haven't heard from her about it. We never received a gift. I don't remember which sibling had my name and I'm not going to hunt through my emails to find the list. I'm assuming whoever it is is overwhelmed by life right now; we may or may not eventually get a gift and it really doesn't matter. My in laws decided last year it was time to end the decades long gift exchange in their family. Shrug. Not a big deal.

 

I suspect the overall situation is making you overthink things. For your own sake, if you can choose to let the little things just roll off your shoulders, please do. Getting upset over it won't change anyone else, but it will make you miserable.

 

Given everything you have said about the overall situation, my personal inclination would not be to cut ties or avoid the situation entirely, but maybe to choose some personal limits. People have suggested that two or three hours would be easier than five, and I agree. Three hours once or twice a year as a gift to your parents doesn't seem unreasonable.

[Flowing Brook]

I am sorry.  It is hard when family acts that way. I feel for your parents My dad lost his son.  My step brother.  Growing up he never could treat me very well. I always felt like it was because he felt so guilty over his ds.  It did not make it any easier but knowing why my dad was acting the way he did helped me not get bitter about it. Not saying you are. Just that sometimes it helps to think about where the other person is coming from.  That being said they should not treat you the way they do.   If it were me I would have a honest unemotional (easier said than done I know) talk with them.  I would explain to them what I see and what I think should be done differently.  As an adult I have done this with  my dad and he said he honestly never realized he did this and our relationship has changed drastically for the better. 

 

If you can't have a conversation with your parents and get them to treat you differently than I would stop going to family gatherings. It is not fair to yourself or your children.  They should grow up with happy memories of their childhood holiday. My dad ruined every single holiday and birthday growing up. It is to the point that I have to make myself over come that and my sister won't celebrate any holiday period because of it. 

As far as your brother and sil. I'd be nice but have as little contact as possible.  If your parents change I would tolerate them at family gatherings for the sake of being together. But if your parents don't then I'd stay away.  :grouphug: :grouphug: I am sorry you are going through this. I hope your next Christmas is better.

[JFSinIL]

Just  say NO.  Invite your folks to YOUR house and not the brother.  Say you want your own family traditions for your kids in their own home.  If your brother wants to come over - fine, BUT ignore him!  You enjoy your folks, your family - make food, etc. etc. and IGNORE the brother.  You are on your own turf.  He and his wife can sit and skulk all day if they so desire. Ignore them!

 

If he doesn't come - fine.  If folks would rather be with him - don't let on you are sad, but calmly invite them for Christmas Eve (etc.) - stand your ground that YOUR Christmas in in YOUR house.  They need to work around YOU and YOUR family.

 

And don't buy his kids anything - do get a neat game (Catan?) that your kids would like, wrap it, and have it handy IN CASE they show up and DO have gifts for your kids. Or in case they show up, no gifts, but you still want to present them a shared family gift (whether they appreciate it or not - you are the bigger person here).  If you do not need the game as a gift - ta da - one more gift for YOUR family.

[snowbeltmom]

im sitting here about ready to cry because we had our family Xmas today and it was horrible.<snip>. They can do know wrong and are very manipulative with my parents. They have been cruel and abusive to us in the past, they ignore our kids,and it's all behind my parents back.

 

 

 

:grouphug:

 

I have been in your situation for years. (Not buying gifts for my kids (birthday and Christmas) is also my brother and sil's mode of behavior) Imo, your parents know exactly what is going on, but choose to ignore your brother's poor behavior because your parents are afraid that if they confront him, he will cut them out of their life.  Instead, your feelings are ignored and you are the one that is made to feel responsible for maintaining family harmony.

 

Fwiw, this year I decided that I had had enough and I did not host the extended family for Christmas.  My daughter and I cooked a dinner for Christmas Eve and we ordered in Chinese on Christmas Day.  We all had a wonderful time. It was such a relief not to deal with the family drama.  It may be selfish, but I wish I had considered my feelings years ago.

 

:grouphug:

[snowbeltmom]

And don't buy his kids anything - do get a neat game (Catan?) that your kids would like, wrap it, and have it handy IN CASE they show up and DO have gifts for your kids. Or in case they show up, no gifts, but you still want to present them a shared family gift (whether they appreciate it or not - you are the bigger person here).  If you do not need the game as a gift - ta da - one more gift for YOUR family.

 

I struggle with the bolded.  Even though my brother and sil don't even acknowledge my kids' birthdays, let alone buy gifts (In fact, my sil sends out a "save the date" email 2 months in advance for my nephew's birthday party on my son's birthday every single year.) I still buy for my brother's kids because I don't want to feel like I am punishing them because my brother is a jerk. 

 

[Melinda in VT]

I struggle with the bolded.  Even though my brother and sil don't even acknowledge my kids' birthdays, let alone buy gifts (In fact, my sil sends out a "save the date" email 2 months in advance for my nephew's birthday party on my son's birthday every single year.) I still buy for my brother's kids because I don't want to feel like I am punishing them because my brother is a jerk. 

 

 

We don't buy birthday or Christmas gifts for nieces or nephews, and my siblings and my husband's siblings don't buy for our kids either. No one is punishing anyone. We actually like each other. We just don't feel the need to buy presents. The birthday party thing is crazy, but if I were you, I would reframe the gift issue. Lots of perfectly normal, loving families don't buy presents for nieces or nephews.

 

[maize]

I struggle with the bolded. Even though my brother and sil don't even acknowledge my kids' birthdays, let alone buy gifts (In fact, my sil sends out a "save the date" email 2 months in advance for my nephew's birthday party on my son's birthday every single year.) I still buy for my brother's kids because I don't want to feel like I am punishing them because my brother is a jerk.

 

See, this make sense to me, you are doing what you feel is right without regard to the behavior of others. You can't dictate anyone else's behavior, but you can choose not to let their behavior impact your own.

 

OP, maybe you could tell your parents you are at a point with your own family where you really need to develop your own traditions for the holidays, you would like to have either Thanksgiving or Christmas set aside for immediate family. Cutting back to one large gathering a year seems reasonable. Thanksgiving might have fewer potential issues than Christmas...

[snowbeltmom]

We don't buy birthday or Christmas gifts for nieces or nephews, and my siblings and my husband's siblings don't buy for our kids either. No one is punishing anyone. We actually like each other. We just don't feel the need to buy presents. The birthday party thing is crazy, but if I were you, I would reframe the gift issue. Lots of perfectly normal, loving families don't buy presents for nieces or nephews.

 

 

I did not mean to imply that families that don't buy presents are not loving.  Sorry if it came across that way.  However, I buys gifts for my nephews on my husband's side of the family (both birthday and Hanukkah) and for my nieces (my other brother's kids).  Both my other brother and sil also buy for my kids.  So in my situation, I would feel like I was punishing my nephews since I wasn't treating them the same as their cousins.

 

[maize]

We don't buy birthday or Christmas gifts for nieces or nephews, and my siblings and my husband's siblings don't buy for our kids either. No one is punishing anyone. We actually like each other. We just don't feel the need to buy presents. The birthday party thing is crazy, but if I were you, I would reframe the gift issue. Lots of perfectly normal, loving families don't buy presents for nieces or nephews.

 

No one in my family buys gifts for nieces and nephews. We'd be broke if we tried!

[Mango]

I wish I could skip. DH insists we go. 

[mirth]

If you only live 1 mile away, you should go to any and all family Christmas dinners but say you can only stay for an hour.  Find a sitter for the kids while your roast cooks.  1 hour is plenty to utter some pleasantries to the family and then just leave.  Drop off something for the dumb gift exchange.  Keep doing the $50 g.c. thing and stop worrying about her 15-30% Kohl's discount.  Accept the $8-15 loss and just move on.  Think of it as paying a fee for not having to be there.  

 

Spare your children from any drama because I think one day some claws will really come out at one of these family dinners.

[lavender's green]

I believe that when you create your own family, you put them first.  If your brother and SIL are actually sociopaths, why do you expose your kids to them?  Kids really do pick up on a lot.  Also, sociopaths do not make good parents, so why would you send your kids to the basement with their kids?  Even if the kids claim to enjoy it?  Kids are smart, and they'll say whatever they're expected to say, just as you do whatever you're expected to do for family gatherings (see, kids pick up on all of it...)  Sounds like a recipe for disaster to me.

 

I'm really sorry you're going through this, and I know how it is because I've been there too.  You should do a lot of reading about dysfunctional family dynamics.  It sounds like the whole thing originates with your parents, even if your angst is directed at your brother.

[AlmiraGulch]

No, you're not alone.  This year, for the first time ever, my family spent Christmas day with just the one sister who lives close that we get along with and not the other one who causes all the problems and yet is seen as The Perfect One by our parents.

 

It was wonderful.

 

The next day my sister that hosted texted me about how great it was to have it be so relaxed, with no drama.  She was right!  There was no tension, no anxiety, no snark, no eye rolling...nothing.  We both decided right there we'll never go back to that again.  

 

As for my parents?  They're welcome to spend their time with whomever they like, but I'm an adult, too, and I have the same choice.  I won't sacrifice my immediate family's time and experiences for my parents' delusion ever again.

 

 

[Beth in OH]

These issues will be lifelong, and you can only yourself and your responses.  Learn.  Make decisions.  Act--set boundaries that you can live with consistently. I recommend reading the book Codependent No More, by Melodie Beatty.    I found this book to be life changing and to help me make difficult relationship decisions and live with them.

[bettyandbob]

I'm trying to think of this from your mother's perspective.  If you feel that she continues to be "fragile" after your brother's death and this seems really important to her, I would tough it out for her sake.(I think this falls under the category of honoring your parents.)   And, since you say that your children also seem to enjoy the time with their cousins, that would be another reason to go.  Others have said that your kids know what's going on, but I disagree.  I think that they could be completely oblivious since they're off playing with cousins -- this is based on my experience growing up and also my children's experiences with lots of cousins at family get-togethers.  As they get older, you can open up to them more about the reality of the family relationships.  

 

Lower your expectations of the event, just expect that it's not going to be fun.  Expect that people will be unkind and be the bigger person by rising above it.  Set definite boundaries, such as, we are going to be there from 1-4 and try to keep that time busy.  Eat, clean-up, open gifts, go home.  Can you do a gift exchange with everyone?  We do that and it makes things so much easier.  Everyone has one person to buy for and one person to give to.  That way kids are included.  

 

It sounds to me as if bil and sil like to 'jerk your chain'.  Don't give them the satisfaction.  And, if your parents go to their graves without ever knowing what a miserable experience this is for us, I think that's perfectly fine as long as you can see it as a duty that you're going to do cheerfully once a year out of your love for your parents.  It's ok if you don't feel like it's out of love -- love is action, not feelings.  

 

I knew something was going on. and before I knew something was going on I'd picked up behaviors from my grandma that are not desirable to have. I was learning the whole time. I may not have been aware what I was learning, but I was learning the whole time my father spent years taking us to gatherings because "family is important."  Kids might be somewhat oblivious, but they are learning and you will not like they learn and it may take a while to eradicate what they learn. Don't ever believe your dc will not be affected, especially when you are not observing the whole time (going to the basement with cousins).

 

I do agree, that if you must go lower your expectations and extremely limit your time. 5 hours can be difficult with family we like. 2 hours  (eat dinner, open stockings, go home). Have an exit plan and stick to it. Do not bring gifts to exchange with brothers family. Maybe include that in an email response to next year when your mom is on the response list. "We assume that since Dan and Sue decided not to bring gifts last year that the new tradition is for our families to not exchange gifts and so we've built that change into our holiday budget."

[Alicia64]

 What's worse, if we say anything or act anything but jolly, we are called the black sheep by my parents for creating conflict. It's a no win situation for us.

 

 

You are not alone. I know you can't give every complex detail here, but I wanted to say: please don't let your parent's off the hook. If your parents can't see that "the conflict" is being created elsewhere. . . then they're part of this family dynamic.

 

This situation isn't just originating with the sociopath brother and his crazy wife. Your parents are pushing for all this togetherness to continue -- and if the love and good feelings aren't real, what's the point?

 

My stance at this point in life is that the good, healthy people have to make a stand and say "no" to putting on fake holidays with the crazy people. If the good, healthy people don't take a stand, where does it leave the world?? Too many people like your brother and sister in law get away with this kind of garbage.

 

Why aren't your parents protecting you and your kids?

 

Your job is to protect your kids and allowing your kids to be around these people isn't good for them. I've gone "no contact" with my crazy family, but I support the idea that keeping it to one or two hours is much healthier than five.

 

Alley

[Meadowlark]

I am getting some great feedback here, and I appreciate you all taking the time to share your thoughts. A couple of things have particularly stood out to me.

 

First, I do overthink things. I think about this crap waaaay too much and I wish so badly that it could just bounce off of my thick skin. Fortunately and unfortunately, I have think skin and a sensitive heart. This has been the greatest hurt of my life.

 

Me cutting ties with my brother was me standing up for myself and my family.  I am proud of that decision and my ability to do what needed to be done, although it continues to be a sore spot with my parents and we really cannot even talk about it. But really, we're only talking about this one (sometimes Thanksgiving) family holiday, once a year. No abuse is taking part anymore, at least none that can be seen or heard. It's just extreme awkwardness and pretending to be something we are not. Its quite ridiculous, and I'm sure that we both only take part in it for the sake of my parents. My parents are in deep denial. They don't see my brother or sil for who they really are. Heck, they even implied we were lying when I told them that my brother told me he was a sociopath. So those of you that said my parents are part of the problem, they most surely are. Sometimes I get more upset with them than with my brother because I do love them, I wonder why they aren't protecting me, and I feel terribly betrayed by them.  Btw, I have asked them why they continually choose them over us. They say they don't. They say they're in the middle and we force them to choose. For example, with the bday thing, my dad blamed me for having my sons bday on his birthday. He said I could've picked any other day and I picked that day to create a problem for them. WHAT? Yep, that's what I'm dealing with.

 

Some of you have advised me to skip it altogether...and I'm honestly not sure about that. I think it would devastate my parents and also I think my kids would be quite sad. And, my parents are getting older and so I'm sure these big family get togethers (by big I mean TONS of food/presents) will only be happening for 3-5 more years, max.

 

I think a better idea for me is to definitely shorten our time there. I heard you all...5 hours was waaay too long. I did try to leave earlier but my mom said "oh, you can't leave now, we haven't even had dessert". And then she said she was up at 5 in the morning making this apple pie. Naturally, we felt obligated to stay. Next year, I have decided that we will limit our time to no more than 3 hours and I will tell my parents that we have to do the gathering in the morning, or the evening. My kids were an absolute wreck last night. 4/5 of them were screaming. The baby was overtired and took 2 hours of crying to finally get to bed. Both my brother and sil are divored and so my sil has kids from another marriage and every single year, we work around her schedule with her ex's relatives. I will NOT have this big shindig in the middle of the afternoon. I will stand firm and if my parents will not accomodate, than we will be staying home.

 

I will also continue to try to lower my expecatations, although they're in the gutter already.  I go into each of these gatherings expecting to be ignored, and that is what happens. This year sunk to a new low with my brother completely ignoring my "Merry Christmas" and then the no gifts for my kids thing. I hate to see the kids in the middle of this, but I will take their lead and not bring gifts for their kids ever again. I'm quite sure my parents didn't catch on to that btw...but I loved the suggestion that someone wrote to write an email next year clueing them in...brilliant!

 

Many of you have said that you have a brother or sister like this. Thankfully, many of you have other siblings that you are able to celebrate with. That was what my deceased brother was. He was kind of the life of the party, fun, and eased some of the tension. Now he is gone and it's just the 4 of us. I don't have anyone to talk to, anyone to commiserate with. I suspect my extended family all know my brother is a little socially odd, but it's hard to get people to understand why I would make a drastic move like cutting him out of my life. It's family after all! I also live in the midwest where family is everything, and even my mom's best friend said she couldn't believe what I did. I feel a lot of judgement from people.

 

It's nice to hear that some of you understand, although I'm sorry for your hurts as well. I will try to put this negative energy into my beautiful 5 children and amazing husband who has stood by my side through all of this. The wagon analogy was great. I will always be pulling my own wagon, but I will choose what goes in it. That image really resonated with me. And finally, next year, I will stay off facebook for the christmas season! Thank you all!

[readinmom]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

It's nice to hear that some of you understand, although I'm sorry for your hurts as well. I will try to put this negative energy into my beautiful 5 children and amazing husband who has stood by my side through all of this. The wagon analogy was great. I will always be pulling my own wagon, but I will choose what goes in it. That image really resonated with me. And finally, next year, I will stay off facebook for the christmas season! Thank you all!

 

I'm glad that you have sorted this out into positive ways.  Praying for you to put this horrible day behind you, and focus on the new year.  You will be in my :grouphug:

[OrganicAnn]

I just want to say that your kids might not always have fun with their cousins especially if their cousins start taking after their parents.   I'd limit contact because of that alone.  I wouldn't let my kids out of my sight with a socio-pathic uncle around.   No kids off playing in the basement.  No kids off in another room.   

 

You might be surprised how much your kids would prefer to stay home or only spend a short time with relatives.   

 

 

 

 

[J-rap]

I'm sorry it has been so difficult.  I think your responsibility should be toward your children now, however, and I don't think it's healthy for your children to be in that environment.  I think you and your family should plan to spend next Christmas alone, maybe plan a fun trip away at a hotel over Christmas and don't even tell anyone where you are.  Your example will give your children the strength and confidence they may need someday to pull themselves away from a situation that is not good for them.  You can have your own great family Christmas celebration with your husband and children.

[Eagle]

I would be tempted to send a "save the date" email for your son's birthday party to your parents on January 1. That will save one argument this year.