Mandylubug Posted December 16, 2013 Share Posted December 16, 2013 Random topic. Not happening to anyone currently in my life, just found out it happened to someone I know years ago and I wonder what I would do when my kids are teenagers, would I feel like I needed do this: So, a young man approaches a father to ask to marry his daughter. He has been the steady boyfriend of this DD since she was 15 and the young man 16. They are now 18 and 19 and have been best friends ever since they have met. There are no red flags to issues, they had their typical arguments, worked them out healthily and moved on like the typical relationship. It seems to be a very mutual, healthy relationship based on respect and love for each other. They are both really mature, have been in college for a year and ready to set a wedding date. Here is the question: When the boy asks to marry the daughter in privacy with the father, the father has no qualms with the boy, he knows he loves the daughter. He knows the daughter loves the boy. His question to the boy was: "Are you sure you know what you are getting into? Are you sure you want to marry HER? She is rebellious, she has a smart mouth and is very stubborn. She will not keep her opinions to herself. She and I clash daily. Are you sure you've seen this side of her and are you sure you are man enough to make this a life time commitment?" Do you find that an appropriate comment? I personally feel like it is sowing seeds of doubt that aren't there but I'm interested to see others opinions. I was shocked when I heard the conversation happened like it did. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bagel270 Posted December 16, 2013 Share Posted December 16, 2013 Ha! That's what my dad did. My dh married me anyway. :laugh: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joanne Posted December 16, 2013 Share Posted December 16, 2013 As a parent, I would object due to that age. I would voice my concern on that basis, since I was approached. As played out, I feel the comments are completely, totally inappropriate and possibly obnoxious. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HRAAB Posted December 16, 2013 Share Posted December 16, 2013 My biggest issue would be their age. As far as what the father said, I think he was out of line. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haiku Posted December 16, 2013 Share Posted December 16, 2013 I think it's fine. Dating someone and living with them are completely different things, as most married people will tell you. In today's culture, I wouldn't be at all surprised to hear of a young man who hasn't seriously considered what living with a young woman day in and day out will actually-and-truly be like (and the same of a young woman). Besides, if the boy had changed his mind based on the father's comments, it would have been a clear indication they weren't ready. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrothead Posted December 16, 2013 Share Posted December 16, 2013 Dad was out of line. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dory Posted December 16, 2013 Share Posted December 16, 2013 I would object because of their age and probably ask them to wait a year or two, but the dad's comments were mean and totally out of line. Any dad that would say that about his daughter has some issues. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AimeeM Posted December 16, 2013 Share Posted December 16, 2013 I can see my dad saying it. (for no other reason than that my dad would be telling the truth, and would want to ensure his daughter wouldn't be ringing his doorbell, years later, heartbroken because the young man couldn't keep up, lol) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meriwether Posted December 16, 2013 Share Posted December 16, 2013 When my BIL approached my dad, Dad told him, "Well, you can ask her but don't be surprised if she says no." They had been a couple for about 10 years, since 7 th grade. My sister was going through a patch where she was thinking that maybe she should spend time with other young men before she was committed. Dad knew that she might not be ready to commit. She did accept his proposal, but BIL still brings that conversation up sometimes. I don't think a father has to be encouraging. I do think a father shouldn't run down his daughter in general. I think a caution against marrying young or for premarital counseling offered in a pleasant way would have been appropriate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoobie Posted December 16, 2013 Share Posted December 16, 2013 I see what dad was getting at--they don't know the nitty gritty realities about each other after dating in high school. The way it was phrased sounds like he was speaking negatively about his daughter though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bree Posted December 16, 2013 Share Posted December 16, 2013 I would say it was inappropriate. He has known her 3 years so it's not like they just met. Then again I married at 19 so that part didn't bother me so much...then again my parents begged us to move in together and they would pay for it :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mandylubug Posted December 16, 2013 Author Share Posted December 16, 2013 Well, I will admit I laughed. I was shocked but I laughed. DH confessed this conversation was held between him and my Dad. We have been happily married for 12 years and he just told me, lol. My Dad even was bragging about how good a husband I had just the other week because he was willing to sacrifice so much for me to be able to home school my kids and stay at home full time, etc.. I just NEVER knew the conversation went down like that. I should mouth off to him and see how he defends himself but nah, looking back, we did clash. I am stubborn, steadfast and opinionated. I wish my girls to be the same. However, growing up, I was raised to be "obedient" and "quiet." I was never the quiet, roll-over type. God didn't make me that way ;) There were some crummy things said to me by him growing up. I remember being told in 2nd grade that I would never make it to college at the rate I was learning my multiplication facts. All throughout my school years we clashed. I didn't learn as he did and struggled a ton. In high school, he didn't believe I had a 3.0 gpa and actually went up to the counselors office for them to prove I had actually pulled off that gpa on my own and was indeed eligible for the Hope scholarship. He was Mr. negativity, I tell ya. I say all that but I know he is a loving father. I clash with one of my kids, too and I have to admit, I wonder, what will I say when it is time for them to marry? Will I warn off the other person as well? LOL eta: I'm not bad mouthing my Dad. I love him. I know he is Mr. Negativity. It is just shocking to hear he tried to get your DH to walk away "while he still had a chance" kind of conversation. LOL I'm sure he would laugh about it now, too. Those teenage years were rough living at home and I really just needed to get out and on my own. No regrets. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustEm Posted December 16, 2013 Share Posted December 16, 2013 If someone had had a discussion with my dh's ex about his immaturity then they could have probably saved each other 4 years of their lives and a lot of pain. Luckily for me they didn't. He learned a lot in that marriage that prepared him for ours (or would have prepared him to fix things in his first marriage had she wanted to.) I don't think dad was out of line (i'm assuming those weren't his exact words and not the entire conversation.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melissa in Australia Posted December 16, 2013 Share Posted December 16, 2013 :lol: when My Dh approached my father DH was just over 30 and I was 18. My father told my DH to keep me away from books- his words " as long as you keep her away from books she is a good worker, as soon as she gets a book in her hand you are in for trouble" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cottonmama Posted December 16, 2013 Share Posted December 16, 2013 I don't think dad was out of line (i'm assuming those weren't his exact words and not the entire conversation.) This. It really depends on the tone and exact words, but yes, I think it could be appropriate if said in a lighthearted or gentle and helpful way, not in a spirit of trying to get rid of the guy and not in the spirit of disparaging the daughter. Better still, though, would be for the dad to discuss it with his daughter after the proposal (so as not to spoil the surprise) and say something like, "Are you sure he can handle you? Does he know about this side of you?" and to be sure they are getting premarital counseling that deals with that kind of thing. My dh knew from my honesty that I have a temper, and I think it was important for him to know that ahead of time. It wasn't necessarily my dad's responsibility to make sure dh knew that, but one way or another I think it's good for the parents to encourage the couple to work through character issues during the engagement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OrganicAnn Posted December 16, 2013 Share Posted December 16, 2013 I think it might be appropriate for a father to ask a young man to really consider the serious step he is about to take. I don't know I would want him to bring out a laundry list of his daughter's petty faults. If the daughter was a not nice person, if the daughter was hiding her true personality, and if the couple had not been dating long, then maybe the father should give some warning to the boy. Otherwise, it is up to both young people to do their own "due diligence". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murphy101 Posted December 16, 2013 Share Posted December 16, 2013 I'm rather amused that more people are bothered by the age and would voice concern about that, which will change yearly, but think it is out of line to voice concern about personality conflicts, which very often don't change nearly as much or as often. Dh and I were like that. Met at 16, married at 19. His entire family was concerned about us being too young. My parents had few things to say on the matter. My dh didn't ask for permission. He did inform my dad that we were engaged and we would be getting married whether they liked it or not, but their acceptance would be nice. My oldest son is almost 19. If he said he wanted to get married, dh and I would not really care about the age. If she is a nice girl who genuinely loves him and he is a nice guy who genuinely loves her, that will outlast being young. And if she or he isn't? Well there's no age where that's going to work out well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbutton Posted December 16, 2013 Share Posted December 16, 2013 My parents got married at 18 at a time when the legal age to do anything without permission was 21. The priest who married them expressed a concern that perhaps my parents were being coerced by the parents to get married (apparently concerned it was a shotgun wedding and weren't telling him). My mom's father replied that the priest clearly didn't know my mom if he thought she could be made to do anything she didn't want to do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Incognito Posted December 16, 2013 Share Posted December 16, 2013 Funny- my FIL asked my DH if he was really sure he wanted to marry me and a few questions like that when DH was going to come out and propose to me. Now that I know my FIL, I understand a bit of who he is and how/why he did it, but my DH really shouldn't have told me while we were engaged that his dad has asked him these questions and sounded really down about us getting engaged/being together. I took a bit of offense and thought my FIL didn't like me, but years later I realized that he was really just wanting to go over the whole thing with his son and be sure my DH wanted to make such a big decision. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rosie_0801 Posted December 16, 2013 Share Posted December 16, 2013 What's inappropriate is when the father says that to his daughter. And after she and her spouse break up, tells the ex son in law that he's better off single, right in front of her.I rather like the "are you man enough" question. That challenges a young fellow in a way "do you think you can put up with that?" doesn't...As you can all tell, I am unable to view this through neutral glasses. :laugh: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lolly Posted December 16, 2013 Share Posted December 16, 2013 I don't see much wrong with the conversation. Then, I see the personality traits he pointed out as strengths...Not all men can handle a strong woman. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prairie~Phlox Posted December 16, 2013 Share Posted December 16, 2013 My parents married at 18-19, dh & I were 20 & 21. I have known quite a few young people over the last few years get married young. If my children had met their future spouse, I would encourage it as well, as long as they were equally yoked. If not, then I would discourage it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lisbeth Posted December 16, 2013 Share Posted December 16, 2013 I don't think those are the words of a loving father. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
creekland Posted December 16, 2013 Share Posted December 16, 2013 I was never the quiet, roll-over type. God didn't make me that way ;) I've often said that I'd have been stoned by age 3 in certain cultures... fortunately, my hubby likes the way I am. We make a great team, not subordinates. I recall my dad saying some similar things to hubby when I took him home to meet the parents... ;) He said it in front of me though. My in-laws told hubby he ought to divorce me when they saw how he was being changed... We're at 25+ years now - and VERY happily going strong. I couldn't have picked a better guy. He probably could have picked a better gal (than me), but he tells me he likes "my" ways better than "traditional" ways. I'm glad we found each other. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murphy101 Posted December 16, 2013 Share Posted December 16, 2013 I didn't see anything particularly terrible about what he said. I guess if it was untrue it would be terrible, but the OP admits that it likely was/is true. He wasn't saying she was an awful person. He was simply pointing out that she can be opinionated and mouth off and had this guy been able to see her without rose-colored glasses, had this guy argued with her and dealt with conflicts with her, is he a strong enough guy to handle fighting with her. I think those are okay questions. Some people don't handle conflict well and when they marry someone who can be opinionated and has no problem confronting people bluntly, it can be a recipe for two unhappy people. I have a very easy going son and if he was in a relationship with a woman like that, I wouldn't hold it against her, but I'd let him know that he is entering a marriage where he must speak up more and become much more comfortable dealing with conflict and not taking every blunt comment personally to the heart. My dad informed my future husband that they hadn't been able to convince me to stay in my place and that dh should know I like to be in charge and don't have proper respect for men. Dh just laughed and said that wasn't his experience at all and left it at that. The problem was the place they wanted to keep me and men who weren't worthy of respect but there's no convincing my dad of that. lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
albeto. Posted December 16, 2013 Share Posted December 16, 2013 Random topic. Not happening to anyone currently in my life, just found out it happened to someone I know years ago and I wonder what I would do when my kids are teenagers, would I feel like I needed do this: So, a young man approaches a father to ask to marry his daughter. He has been the steady boyfriend of this DD since she was 15 and the young man 16. They are now 18 and 19 and have been best friends ever since they have met. There are no red flags to issues, they had their typical arguments, worked them out healthily and moved on like the typical relationship. It seems to be a very mutual, healthy relationship based on respect and love for each other. They are both really mature, have been in college for a year and ready to set a wedding date. Here is the question: When the boy asks to marry the daughter in privacy with the father, the father has no qualms with the boy, he knows he loves the daughter. He knows the daughter loves the boy. His question to the boy was: "Are you sure you know what you are getting into? Are you sure you want to marry HER? She is rebellious, she has a smart mouth and is very stubborn. She will not keep her opinions to herself. She and I clash daily. Are you sure you've seen this side of her and are you sure you are man enough to make this a life time commitment?" Do you find that an appropriate comment? I personally feel like it is sowing seeds of doubt that aren't there but I'm interested to see others opinions. I was shocked when I heard the conversation happened like it did. In context, yes, I think it's an appropriate comment. The context, as I see it is passing the responsibility of caring for the individual from father to husband. The father is making sure the husband understand's there's no return policy. It's all very practical from a medieval point of reference. I find it embarrassing from that point of view. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marbel Posted December 16, 2013 Share Posted December 16, 2013 I didn't read any responses yet. I wish my parents had voiced their doubts when I decided to get married at age 22, either to my ex-husband or to me. I think it's appropriate for parents of young people to ask questions to determine readiness. It's a form of pre-marital counseling, isn't it, in a way? Now, when I remarried at age 39, after living on my own as an adult for 15 years after my divorce... I think it would be inappropriate simply because of age and experience. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mytwomonkeys Posted December 16, 2013 Share Posted December 16, 2013 I don't know. If they had been dating for 4 or 5 years, I can't imagine any of those "objections" shocked the young man, nor did the behavior of his future FIL. I'm sure he was very aware of the entire family package and all their issues. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mytwomonkeys Posted December 16, 2013 Share Posted December 16, 2013 Honestly, this scenario is so out there in my "world" I cannot fathom it. I have never encountered the whole "asking for marriage permission" thing. . It really isn't for permission as much as a courtesy I think. My husband talked to my dad prior to proposing. My husband doesn't drink at all, but my dad loves Heineken. He brought my dad a 12 pack & jokingly said " I have a proposition". My dad appreciated my husband going to him, but I was almost 29. It wasn't a permission needed conversation :) Just a gesture. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThatHomeschoolDad Posted December 16, 2013 Share Posted December 16, 2013 A. What in the world are they doing getting married at 19? B. It sounds like dad has some serious gender or control issues. What do they clash about? Are we talking the level of "you're wearing that?" or are we talking "dad, I'll just be happy with my own babies and a trailer to call home" sort of ambition, or are we talking "women should be seen and not heard, and dad-gummit, DD has these crazy ideas about going to law school" ? There's a lot under the surface there that needs to be taken into account. By itself, "Are you sure you've seen this side of her and are you sure you are man enough to make this a life time commitment?" sounds like a valid question to a teenager and speaks to a level of maturity that makes sense. Taken with the dad's other line of questions, I'm not so sure that was the primary intent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebel Yell Posted December 16, 2013 Share Posted December 16, 2013 So they'd been dating all that time and he has no idea how she really is? Or were they always doing supervised coutship where they had no time to be alone or truly be themselves? :confused1: I think the dad's comments were odd, but not odd if they were from a very strict courtship family where the couple had never been alone together. And I have peopel that I "clash daily" with- and many many other that it;s all smooth sailing. Maybe the girl isn;t the problem. :cursing: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bolt. Posted December 16, 2013 Share Posted December 16, 2013 I find it absurd to seek anyone's permission to marry. If its a sentimental gesture, it should be responsed-to in a way that reflects sentementality, supporting the relationship fully. In that case, it's not a transfer of patriarchal responsibility. If it really is a transfer of patriarchaly responsibility, actually seeking permission-that-matters, then I suppose it's only sensible to discuss the details between the men who are conducting the transfer. If parents have legitimate concerns about their daughter's good character, readiness for marriage or honesty with her bf, they should talk to her -- not undermine the relationship from the outside. But, still, the particulars of those comments were just... Icky? -- this dad seems to have some strang ideas of how an adult daughter should be (especially in relation to himsrlf) in order to "criticize" her on those particular points. It sounds like he (the dad) lacks the social skills to relate to his grown offspring as people, and he sounds fairly intent on supressing her adulthood. On the other hand, maybe it's "reverse psychology" -- waiting to see if the young man would agree with unflattering terms or rush to her defense? If so, it's a prank that needs to be cleared up immediately after assessing his reaction -- not left hanging. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mandylubug Posted December 16, 2013 Author Share Posted December 16, 2013 I would not marry a guy who asked my dad if he could. I'm not my dad's property. I see nothing courteous about treating me like a business transaction. I don't know how to say that in a nicer way, but that really is how I see it. Lol it was just a courtesy. The marriage would have happened regardless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mandylubug Posted December 16, 2013 Author Share Posted December 16, 2013 I find nothing courteous about it. But as I said in another post, it would indicate to me that the boyfriend did not know me very well and then I'd wonder what else he hasn't figured out about me. Nah, it was actually my DH that went through this fiasco. The marriage was going to happen regardless.DH approached him out of courtesy for Me. Family is important to me and he chose to get my dad's blessing before proposing formally to me. Marriage timelines, etc had already been discussed for a while. The conversation was initiated as a show of respect to my dad but it was never a requirement in our relationship. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mandylubug Posted December 16, 2013 Author Share Posted December 16, 2013 I wondered that or if the dynamic between the daughter and father were just different. The relationship between a daughter and father verses a daughter and spouse should hopefully be different. The give and take in each relationship just might be entirely different. I clashed with my dad in ways I never clashed with any boyfriend nor my spouse. My dad has mellowed considerably over the years (for the better thankfully). We do just clash personality wise. I was a spontaneous dreamer that saw the best in every situation. He bursts bubbles as a sport ;) He's a perfectionist and planner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MinivanMom Posted December 16, 2013 Share Posted December 16, 2013 I find the comments icky. I'll trust you that it happened within the context of a loving father/daughter relationship, but definitely icky. If dh was asking out of courtesy, then it was ugly and unnecessary for dad to run you down. In that situation the proper response is congratulations and nothing more. If dh was really asking for permission, then it is icky in a patriarchal "lets discuss the little woman" kind of way. "Rebellious", seriously? Is your husband "in charge" of you to where "rebelliousness" is a potential relationship issue? Icky, icky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mandylubug Posted December 16, 2013 Author Share Posted December 16, 2013 I find the comments icky. I'll trust you that it happened within the context of a loving father/daughter relationship, but definitely icky. If dh was asking out of courtesy, then it was ugly and unnecessary for dad to run you down. In that situation the proper response is congratulations and nothing more. If dh was really asking for permission, then it is icky in a patriarchal "lets discuss the little woman" kind of way. "Rebellious", seriously? Is your husband "in charge" of you to where "rebelliousness" is a potential relationship issue? Icky, icky. I know dad THOUGHT my hubs would be in charge of me. He believes in that kind of relationship. However, my relationship has NEVER been one where DH ruled over me. It has actually been very equal. DH actually was a sahd with 4 kids under 3 while I brought home the bacon for a while. He was a better housewife than I will ever be! Lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mandylubug Posted December 16, 2013 Author Share Posted December 16, 2013 Would have been funny of your DH to say something like, "Well you know I like a challenge sir." LOL Hahaha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThatHomeschoolDad Posted December 16, 2013 Share Posted December 16, 2013 Would have been funny of your DH to say something like, "Well you know I like a challenge sir." LOL And then went charging right down that gender-bender with "Yes, I think it's a husband's role to train a wife, to mold her into into adult human, you know? A good wife that will not get fat, and still wash out my skid marks at the end of the day. As I was just discussing with the guys on my shift at the Rubbermaid plant...." Go for it, kid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carrie12345 Posted December 16, 2013 Share Posted December 16, 2013 :::shrug::: When my mom was 47, my stepfather asked Grandpa for permission to marry her. Grandpa just asked "Why???" That's how we roll. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harriet Vane Posted December 16, 2013 Share Posted December 16, 2013 I don't think it's inappropriate for a loving parent to try to help a young man think through the day to day reality of living with someone. I do think it's out of line and inappropriate for a father to criticize and demean his child. There are ways to discuss personality characteristics and potential marriage challenges without being ugly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stripe Posted December 16, 2013 Share Posted December 16, 2013 Ha! That's what my dad did. My dh married me anyway. :laugh: Me too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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