Has this been discussed? Doug Phillips *resigns* from Vision Forum (Ministries)!

[StaceyinLA]

>>  3) As Christians we are called to follow Jesus, not people. <<

 

 

This is the biggest problem I see with so many of the super-church pastors, supposed family "leaders" (like Gothard, Phillips, etc.) and other figures. People are really almost putting their faith into the person, and/or the "system" they represent. They are all sinners just the same as you and me.

 

I have always been a skeptic about these sorts of people; just never get a sincere vibe. On the one hand it makes me really sad, and on the other it makes me hope people will just wake the heck up!

[Little Nyssa]

Still thinking about all this. I began to picture anyone trying this kind of abuse on my particular church community. I don't think it would work, because our local church is full of very strong minded people who would knock the person over the head if they tried it! They would never stand for it and such person would be out on his ear.
Then I began to realize that there could, in any community, be a few who are more timid, who could be taken advantage of, especially if it occurred in private, and if the person was weak because of going through some kind of crisis, and depending on the leader for spiritual help. I suppose the abusive person in authority knows, like any bully, who he can bully and who won't stand for it. And he gathers around himself a community of victims who are weak and/or wounded so that he can keep his power. And, if they do speak up, their neediness and weakness will make their story unbelievable, and their own faults will be exposed. And the leader pretends to himself that this is what God wants so that he can justify himself. Ultimately the facade will not hold, something slips, and there is a scandal.
Maybe there can be a real repentance, I hope so. But it would be hard for any of us to know if there truly is, wouldn't it? I can imagine someone who was really repentant writing a very similar letter. So I can't tell if he means anything or not. The only thing is 'produce fruit in keeping with repentance.' and I'm not the one with any responsibility to keep tabs on him so I will probably never know.

[sunflowerlady]

Casting stones? Doug Phillips built himself a very large glass house paid for by his own stone casting at others.

Why didn't he just pray for them?

[unsinkable]

>> 3) As Christians we are called to follow Jesus, not people. <<


This is the biggest problem I see with so many of the super-church pastors, supposed family "leaders" (like Gothard, Phillips, etc.) and other figures. People are really almost putting their faith into the person, and/or the "system" they represent. They are all sinners just the same as you and me.

I have always been a skeptic about these sorts of people; just never get a sincere vibe. On the one hand it makes me really sad, and on the other it makes me hope people will just wake the heck up!

I've been following the story of a mega-church pastor who gave a sermon saying his wife was adulterous and is in a one year isolation residential treatment program.

Yeah, what kind of dirtbag husband announces that FOR her while she isn't there to defend herself?

And what if she's NOT in isolated treatment...what if she's dead by his hand? Shudder.

I hope the people listening to this guy's sermon wake up to what kind of man he is.

[JumpyTheFrog]

The only thing is 'produce fruit in keeping with repentance.' and I'm not the one with any responsibility to keep tabs on him so I will probably never know.

We may yet find out. If associated big-wigs distance themselves from him and he starts defending himself and acting like they are overreacting, then we'll know the resignation letter was all for show. If he sues other people (he's a lawyer) and tries for a gag order, we'll know his repentance is a fraud. The same goes if he tries to reclaim his place with VFM, start a new ministry, goes on a new speaking tour, etc anytime in the next few years (or even decades).

Over on The Wartburg Watch, they have written in the past about the fake "repentance" pedophiles use to be allowed to remain at churches. Most people fall for it. They say that a truly repentant pedophile (unlikely there are many, but there might be one somewhere) wouldn't get upset if people didn't want him at a church with kids. He would be willing arrange his life so he'd never be around kids and would never be in a position to act on any temptation. Likewise, repentant church "leaders" should avoid anything that would put them in a position to hurt people like that again.

[HRAAB]

I've been following the story of a mega-church pastor who gave a sermon saying his wife was adulterous and is in a one year isolation residential treatment program.

Yeah, what kind of dirtbag husband announces that FOR her while she isn't there to defend herself?

And what if she's NOT in isolated treatment...what if she's dead by his hand? Shudder.

I hope the people listening to this guy's sermon wake up to what kind of man he is.

 

So he's got her locked up in the attic?

 

I've never heard of treatment facilities for adultery.

[jelbe5]

So he's got her locked up in the attic?

I've never heard of treatment facilities for adultery.

Didn't Tiger Woods or some other big name go to some type of program for "sex addiction"?

ETA I also don't agree with a public acknowledgement of what I think should be private matters.

[unsinkable]

So he's got her locked up in the attic?

I've never heard of treatment facilities for adultery.

Janet, I haven't looked for info in a few days but last I heard, no one had seen her.

http://www.foxcarolina.com/story/23701174/pastors-sermon

[HRAAB]

And I still can't get past the father daughter teas where the daughter shaves her father.  What the h*ll?  At a tea?  With crumpets, Earl Grey and shaving cream and razors.  Am I missing something?  Did I read that wrong?

[KungFuPanda]

Hi all: I'm a long-time homeschooling mom and blog at SpiritualSoundingBoard.com. A reader sent me a link to this thread and although I'm familiar with many of the stories, it's just hard to wrap your mind around this kind of treatment of women in Patriarchy. One might get confused and think we were talking about Muslims. It is so, so disturbing. FaithManor - - any time you want to guest post and share this kind of info, please let me know. This stuff must be exposed. Ugh.

People are talking about how wonderful his statement of repentance is. A statement of repentance means nothing if there is no action/fruit. It's premature to know how "repentant" he is. Let's wait a year or so and then ask key people who deal with him frequently to see. He mentions stepping down as president at Vision Forum, but there are 2 entities: one is non-profit 501c3, the other is a for-profit business. Is he stepping down from both? Is he also stepping down from his pastoral position at his church?

I don't know where you live, but the Muslims I know don't act like this. Do you even have IRL Muslim friends?

It is very disheartening to read the posts. Who are any of us to cast the first stone or are we all perfect? We also can't judge others motives or lives. We are only responsible for ourselves in the end. I personally feel bad for his Savior and what this has done to him.
Why don't you pray instead of casting stones isn't that what Jesus would do???

IIRC, Jesus tossed those moneylenders right out of the temple . . . and not in a quiet, prayerful, discreet way either. WWJD I deed!

So he's got her locked up in the attic?

I've never heard of treatment facilities for adultery.

Maybe 'treatment' is code for him losing complete control and her taking off. He might figure that a year is enough time to fix the situation somehow.



This has been an interesting thread. I've never even HEARD of these Doug guys and find it amusing that they "represent the homeschooling community." WHERE do they even operate?

[JumpyTheFrog]

And I still can't get past the father daughter teas where the daughter shaves her father. What the h*ll? At a tea? With crumpets, Earl Grey and shaving cream and razors. Am I missing something? Did I read that wrong?

Nope, you didn't read it wrong. I think they also did some event where the daughters were blindfolded and had to listen for directions from their dad. VF is all about daughters giving their hearts to their daddies until their dads pass them off to husbands. The strict courtship program, however, doesn't seem to be leading to nearly as many early marriages as they hoped for. In my previous church, the oldest girls raised this way are nearing 30, with no prospects. Many of them have been out of high school for 5-10 years and have little to show for it: no career and no college (well, a few got English degrees from Thomas Edison by using CLEP exams to test out of most of college). Even working miniumum wage FT for all those years would've let them save up enough to buy a starter house around here! Instead, they are doing what they were taught, staying home and being Mommy's helper, rather than being "worldly" by having goals of their own. (Writing music, writing Christian fiction, and speaking at local himeschooling conferences are approved paths for a few, but none of those pay much, if anything.)

[FaithManor]

So he's got her locked up in the attic?

 

I've never heard of treatment facilities for adultery.

ATI has re-education centers.  I have no idea if this particular individual is involved with that, the reality is that women are sent to them for a variety of reason. Adultery would definitely be one, but anything from wanting to wear something the husband/pastor didn't like, or make-up that wasn't approved, or wanting to attend church somewhere else, or not keeping the house perfect, or not wanting to have another child, or....there is a book on Amazon right now by one of the survivors who was sent to a Gothard re-education facility when her husband and the pastor of the church in cahoots with her brother decided she wasn't submissive enough. Sensory deprivation, isolation, certain types of things we would describe at best as something reserved for the treatment of criminals of serious crimes and at worst, torture, were done to her there.

 

While I have no way of knowing if this is where the "she" in Unsinkable's post was sent...and yes, they physically restrain, even tie up the female in question if that's what it takes, in order to force her to go. In most cases, if the police knew about it, it would fall under unlawful restraint and kidnapping. So, I am sickened, and yet not surprised that Unsinkable heard this from a pulpit. Wherever this woman is, it is probably not good UNLESS she had a professional diagnosed condition such as schizophrenia that came to light as a result of her "adultery", and she is in an legitimate, medical treatment facility for such condition.

 

The ATI re-education center in Indianapolis is partially funded by the state. Believe it or not, it is a favorite of some family court judges and juveniles are sentenced to time in them for "character education". The horrors that some of these teens have described would make you sick to your stomach. However, Gothard gets results. He runs his horror house well enough that most of these kids will obey ANYTHING in order to not go back. As one judge put it, "ATI gets results." Of course, this judge and I probably differ quite greatly on what kind of results American taxpayers should seek. From his perspective, all he cares about is that the offender does not repeat. Fine. But, I take a bigger view and prefer not to make more predators out of them, or PTSD sufferers, or more dominionist monsters that undermine the constitutional rights of the other citizens. GACK!

 

Faith

[unsinkable]

ATI has re-education centers. I have no idea if this particular individual is involved with that, the reality is that women are sent to them for a variety of reason. Adultery would definitely be one, but anything from wanting to wear something the husband/pastor didn't like, or make-up that wasn't approved, or wanting to attend church somewhere else, or not keeping the house perfect, or not wanting to have another child, or....there is a book on Amazon right now by one of the survivors who was sent to a Gothard re-education facility when her husband and the pastor of the church in cahoots with her brother decided she wasn't submissive enough. Sensory deprivation, isolation, certain types of things we would describe at best as something reserved for the treatment of criminals of serious crimes and at worst, torture, were done to her there.

While I have no way of knowing if this is where the "she" in Unsinkable's post was sent...and yes, they physically restrain, even tie up the female in question if that's what it takes, in order to force her to go. In most cases, if the police knew about it, it would fall under unlawful restraint and kidnapping. So, I am sickened, and yet not surprised that Unsinkable heard this from a pulpit. Wherever this woman is, it is probably not good UNLESS she had a professional diagnosed condition such as schizophrenia that came to light as a result of her "adultery", and she is in an legitimate, medical treatment facility for such condition.

The ATI re-education center in Indianapolis is partially funded by the state. Believe it or not, it is a favorite of some family court judges and juveniles are sentenced to time in them for "character education". The horrors that some of these teens have described would make you sick to your stomach. However, Gothard gets results. He runs his horror house well enough that most of these kids will obey ANYTHING in order to not go back. As one judge put it, "ATI gets results." Of course, this judge and I probably differ quite greatly on what kind of results American taxpayers should seek. From his perspective, all he cares about is that the offender does not repeat. Fine. But, I take a bigger view and prefer not to make more predators out of them, or PTSD sufferers, or more dominionist monsters that undermine the constitutional rights of the other citizens. GACK!

Faith

I did NOT hear this from a pulpit.


I read it in a news article.

Edit to add...my people have a different word for mega-churches. We call them basilicas.

[kitten18]

Don't feed the sock puppet.

:lol: :lol: :lol:

[HS Mom in NC]

It is very disheartening to read the posts. Who are any of us to cast the first stone or are we all perfect? We also can't judge others motives or lives. We are only responsible for ourselves in the end. I personally feel bad for his Savior and what this has done to him.

Why don't you pray instead of casting stones isn't that what Jesus would do???

 

Jesus spent a lot of time addressing the oppression and false teachings of the religious leadership around Him.  He even called them "broods of vipers" and "white washed tombs" saying they were full of death and rot and fith and decay. He made a whip and used it to force the money lenders out of the temple.  It was the victimized followers of this type of bad theology that He poured out His live and compassion on.  "Aslan isn't a tame lion."

[Crimson Wife]

As far as the other woman is concerned she is just as wrong as he is.

I wouldn't necessarily make the assumption that just because he was having an emotional affair with her that her feelings towards him went beyond Platonic friendship. It wouldn't surprise me if it did, but men are notorious for reading more into a relationship than actually exists.

[Catwoman]

I wouldn't necessarily make the assumption that just because he was having an emotional affair with her that her feelings towards him went beyond Platonic friendship. It wouldn't surprise me if it did, but men are notorious for reading more into a relationship than actually exists.

I think his whole story is a crock. I don't believe for a single moment that he resigned from such a powerful and influential position over an "emotional affair."

I still think there's a whole lot more going on there than any of us will ever know.

[mommaduck]

So he's got her locked up in the attic?

 

I've never heard of treatment facilities for adultery.

 

I have...in fact, I've heard of a pastor doing that to his wife for not towing the line, hook and sinker. Stuck her in a hellhole.

[Spy Car]

Jesus spent a lot of time addressing the oppression and false teachings of the religious leadership around Him. He even called them "broods of vipers" and "white washed tombs" saying they were full of death and rot and fith and decay. He made a whip and used it to force the money lenders out of the temple. It was the victimized followers of this type of bad theology that He poured out His live and compassion on. "Aslan isn't a tame lion."

Completely beside the point of the thread, but today my son will be writing a persuasive 5 paragraph essay comparing and contrasting Aslan with Jadis (the Queen of Charn/White Witch) for his 4th Grade class.

There are many differences (obviously) in how the characters represent "good vs evil," but one interesting agruement he came up with in his outline this week was seeing how both were similar in not being non-violent. Aslan (like Jadis) is prepared to use force in the battle of good and evil, they just take different sides in that struggle.

Sorry for the rabbit hole. Play on.

Bill

[Crimson Wife]

I've never heard of treatment facilities for adultery.

There are treatment programs for compulsive behavior, including chronic infidelity/s*x addiction.

[Mary in VA]

Janet, I haven't looked for info in a few days but last I heard, no one had seen her.

http://www.foxcarolina.com/story/23701174/pastors-sermon

 

I know nothing about this church or the pastor.  From the information I could get from googling, it appears erratic behavior/infidelity from his wife took place over the course of ten years.  They tried counseling and dealing with it for a long time.  The things I read said she is getting psychological treatment.  So on the surface (of course I could be totally wrong) it doesn't bear any resemblance to "the Dougs."

[mommaduck]

Janet, I haven't looked for info in a few days but last I heard, no one had seen her.

http://www.foxcarolina.com/story/23701174/pastors-sermon

 

Figures it would be out of Greenville, SC 

[Crimson Wife]

I think his whole story is a crock. I don't believe for a single moment that he resigned from such a powerful and influential position over an "emotional affair."

I still think there's a whole lot more going on there than any of us will ever know.

Like I said, that wouldn't surprise me one bit. I'm just willing to give the other woman the benefit of the doubt rather than automatically assuming she's a homewrecker. God knows the full truth and will judge her accordingly. I pray that she is innocent and if not, that she is able to repent of her sin and find forgiveness through Him.

[HRAAB]

There are treatment programs for compulsive behavior, including chronic infidelity/s*x addiction.

Yes, someone else pointed this out. However, (without knowing the woman's history) a case of adultery does not equal a sex addiction.

eta: I see he claims she admitted to several affairs. It also sounds there might be more going on than just affairs - perhaps depression, mental instability.

[Catwoman]

Like I said, that wouldn't surprise me one bit. I'm just willing to give the other woman the benefit of the doubt rather than automatically assuming she's a homewrecker. God knows the full truth and will judge her accordingly. I pray that she is innocent and if not, that she is able to repent of her sin and find forgiveness through Him.

I always figure that a woman can't be a homewrecker without a willing accomplice. ;)

I find it annoying when people automatically blame the woman, too! Why is there an assumption that the woman is the evil temptress who's making the first move and luring in a poor, unsuspecting, weak, gullible, innocent man? Plenty of married men make the first move to initiate illicit relationships.

And seriously, do we really want to believe that men are so incredibly weak and easily tempted? I think men are perfectly capable of resisting temptation. It's kind of sad to think that some women believe otherwise.

[unsinkable]

I always figure that a woman can't be a homewrecker without a willing accomplice. ;)

I find it annoying when people automatically blame the woman, too! Why is there an assumption that the woman is the evil temptress who's making the first move and luring in a poor, unsuspecting, weak, gullible, innocent man? Plenty of married men make the first move to initiate illicit relationships.

And seriously, do we really want to believe that men are so incredibly weak and easily tempted? I think men are perfectly capable of resisting temptation. It's kind of sad to think that some women believe otherwise.

They say Eve tempted Adam with an apple. But I ain't going for that. I know it was her Pink Cadillac, crushed velvet seats.

[JumpyTheFrog]

Will Phillips be resigning from being an elder at Boerne Christian Assembly? His letter at VFM didn't mention it.

 

 

[HS Mom in NC]

Completely beside the point of the thread, but today my son will be writing a persuasive 5 paragraph essay comparing and contrasting Aslan with Jadis (the Queen of Charn/White Witch) for his 4th Grade class.

There are many differences (obviously) in how the characters represent "good vs evil," but one interesting agruement he came up with in his outline this week was seeing how both were similar in not being non-violent. Aslan (like Jadis) is prepared to use force in the battle of good and evil, they just take different sides in that struggle.

Sorry for the rabbit hole. Play on.

Bill

 

You seem to have missed the context of my Aslan reference.  When Christians talk about Aslan in the context of Christian living they're referring to Jesus, Himself.  Are you not around lots of literary Chrsitans who sometimes talk this way?  Maybe this is something you've never seen before and don't know what to make of it when it happens. When I said, "Aslan isn't a tame lion" I was using a Christian way of saying Phillips is lying and Jesus will hold him accountable.

 

 I meant He's (Jesus is) not tame in the sense that He doesn't fit our mold, He isn't brought out to do what we want Him to, and He isn't here for us to present Him to others as it conveniences us to make our points. We do His bidding as He sees fit.  He's not some talisman or name to be used to legitimize whatever suits our fancy.  And in the end, there is destruction for those receiving His judgment. A soft and squishy God full of mush for unrepentant oppressors He isn't. He's mighty, powerful, and full of righteous anger at the right time in the right way and there will be an eternal reckoning for those who have misrepresented Him, distorted Him and disregarded His teachings without truly repenting of it.   Specifically, in this context, Jesus' teaching that if you want to be the greatest in the kingdom of heaven, you have to be the servant to all.  That's contrary to the teachings and attitude of Philips and others like him.

[Spy Car]

You seem to have missed the context of my Aslan reference. When Christians talk about Aslan in the context of Christian living they're referring to Jesus, Himself. Are you not around lots of literary Chrsitans who sometimes talk this way? Maybe this is something you've never seen before and don't know what to make of it when it happens. When I said, "Aslan isn't a tame lion" I was using a Christian way of saying Phillips is lying and Jesus will hold him accountable.

No, I am not around lots of literary Christians. Not at all. Nope.

I think I/we took your meaning (at least in a limited sense) correctly. Aslan does not advocate surrender to Jadis and her allies, but warns his creatures to ready themselves for future battle.

I meant He's (Jesus is) not tame in the sense that He doesn't fit our mold, He isn't brought out to do what we want Him to, and He isn't here for us to present Him to others as it conveniences us to make our points. We do His bidding as He sees fit. He's not some talisman or name to be used to legitimize whatever suits our fancy. And in the end, there is destruction for those receiving His judgment. A soft and squishy God full of mush for unrepentant oppressors He isn't. He's mighty, powerful, and full of righteous anger at the right time in the right way and there will be an eternal reckoning for those who have misrepresented Him, distorted Him and disregarded His teachings without truly repenting of it. Specifically, in this context, Jesus' teaching that if you want to be the greatest in the kingdom of heaven, you have to be the servant to all. That's contrary to the teachings and attitude of Philips and others like him.

I take your point. I only wish we'd been able to steal the line "Aslan is not a tame lion" for dear son's essay, as it would have added a nice turn of phrase. Note to self: meet More literary Christians :D

I have many other thoughts about this turn of event, but am going to (uncharacteristically) told my tongue for the time being.

Bill

[5kidsforME]

I wouldn't necessarily make the assumption that just because he was having an emotional affair with her that her feelings towards him went beyond Platonic friendship. It wouldn't surprise me if it did, but men are notorious for reading more into a relationship than actually exists.

 

I'm not even sure at what angle to come at this.  

 

1. you're more in denial then I was yesterday.

2. Are you saying that this women is so "dumb" that she had no idea she and DP were having a lengthy romantic relationship?

3. Or are you trying to say it is all completely his fault?

 

She knew. She was involved. They are both wrong. 

[Catwoman]

They say Eve tempted Adam with an apple. But I ain't going for that. I know it was her Pink Cadillac, crushed velvet seats.

All I have to say is that I'm glad I like that song, because it has been stuck in my head since you posted it. :)

[Terabith]

No, I am not around lots of literary Christians. Not at all. Nope.

I think I/we took your meaning (at least in a limited sense) correctly. Aslan does not advocate surrender to Jadis and her allies, but warns his creatures to ready themselves for future battle.

I take your point. I only wish we'd been able to steal the line "Aslan is not a tame lion" for dear son's essay, as it would have added a nice turn of phrase. Note to self: meet More literary Christians :D

I have many other thoughts about this turn of event, but am going to (uncharacteristically) told my tongue for the time being.

Bill

 

Well, the "Aslan is not a tame lion," is quote from Mr. Beaver.  C. S. Lewis, however, would definitely qualify as a "literary Christian," I would say!  

 

I hear the term "emotional affair" a lot, but I really don't understand what that means.  I mean, is it fantasies?  Or a close friendship?  I just really can't imagine.......

[Joanne]

It is very disheartening to read the posts. Who are any of us to cast the first stone or are we all perfect? We also can't judge others motives or lives. We are only responsible for ourselves in the end. I personally feel bad for his Savior and what this has done to him.

Why don't you pray instead of casting stones isn't that what Jesus would do???

Because many of us participating are not Christians and your post is meaningless to us. Because many who ARE Christians believe Doug and his Vision Forum to be beyond "sin" and to be abuse, brainwashing and a cult.

[Anne in CA]

I do not know the whole situation at all, but I have strict reservations about placing the woman in this scenario in equal blame with DP. Number one, as an attractive woman with a very public job I have had MANY men think that my friendliness was flirting. The week my wedding ring was getting fixed was CRAZY. Men think differently than women, period. It is entirely possible for a man to have a flirtation while a woman is having a friendly encounter. I had to be almost forty to accept that, but I have now, lol. It is not impossible that DP and this woman met for some sort of weekly meeting (her marriage counseling session?) and he thought they were flirting and having emotional time together and she thought they were working on her self esteem to fix her marriage. I know someone this happened to. It happens. It does not make the woman equally guilty.

 

The other way the woman might not be at fault is that she may have known that "telling on" DP would cause her family to be cast from her church and she didn't want to do that to her husband and kids so she was powerless to stop the ride she was on. She may not even have cared for him at all, she may have just been placating him so that she could remain in her church. That would also not make her equally responsible for his bad behavior.

 

The real reason I don't believe she is as responsible as him? The men in Patriarchy movement want all the power in any relationship with a woman, so they should have all the accountability that goes with it. Period.

 

 

[Spy Car]

Well, the "Aslan is not a tame lion," is quote from Mr. Beaver. C. S. Lewis, however, would definitely qualify as a "literary Christian," I would say!

In which book did Mr Beaver say this?

The literary merit (or lack thereof) of C.S. Lewis is a discussion for another thread. I lean towards Tolkein's view myself.

I hear the term "emotional affair" a lot, but I really don't understand what that means. I mean, is it fantasies? Or a close friendship? I just really can't imagine.......

Are you asking me?

Bill

[5kidsforME]

I do not know the whole situation at all, but I have strict reservations about placing the woman in this scenario in equal blame with DP. Number one, as an attractive woman with a very public job I have had MANY men think that my friendliness was flirting. The week my wedding ring was getting fixed was CRAZY. Men think differently than women, period. It is entirely possible for a man to have a flirtation while a woman is having a friendly encounter. I had to be almost forty to accept that, but I have now, lol. It is not impossible that DP and this woman met for some sort of weekly meeting (her marriage counseling session?) and he thought they were flirting and having emotional time together and she thought they were working on her self esteem to fix her marriage. I know someone this happened to. It happens. It does not make the woman equally guilty.

 

The other way the woman might not be at fault is that she may have known that "telling on" DP would cause her family to be cast from her church and she didn't want to do that to her husband and kids so she was powerless to stop the ride she was on. She may not even have cared for him at all, she may have just been placating him so that she could remain in her church. That would also not make her equally responsible for his bad behavior.

 

The real reason I don't believe she is as responsible as him? The men in Patriarchy movement want all the power in any relationship with a woman, so they should have all the accountability that goes with it. Period.

 

I do believe that DP will be held more responsible before God because of his position.   That being said the excuses you are giving the other women are not acceptable.  You are justifying (I realize we are guessing here on what happened) her actions.  Sometimes in life we are called to do hard things.   You are guessing she was forced into this position.  You are guessing she was abused by this relationship.  Even if she was put in a horrible situation she still should do the right thing.

[Catwoman]

I do believe that DP will be held more responsible before God because of his position. That being said the excuses you are giving the other women are not acceptable. You are justifying (I realize we are guessing here on what happened) her actions. Sometimes in life we are called to do hard things. You are guessing she was forced into this position. You are guessing she was abused by this relationship. Even if she was put in a horrible situation she still should do the right thing.

I'm not at all sure why we are discussing the woman at all. :confused: We have absolutely no details about what happened, and blaming the woman seems pointless when all we have is his side of the story -- and he hasn't exactly provided a wealth of detail.

All we know is that Doug Phillips appears to have gotten caught doing something he shouldn't have done, and had to resign as a result. As I posted earlier, I can't imagine that this whole fiasco resulted from nothing more than an "emotional affair" with one woman. It would have been far too easy for him to have justified a "special friendship" with the woman, if that's all it was. IMO, he never would have resigned unless there was potential for a huge scandal.

I think the whole "emotional affair" thing was nothing more than a convenient excuse for stepping down, in the hope that no one would dig any deeper.

[JumpyTheFrog]

The men in Patriarchy movement want all the power in any relationship with a woman, so they should have all the accountability that goes with it. Period.

 

From what I have seen, they say they have all the responsibility (since they make all the major decisions), but then they turn around and blame the women for everything! "If only she wasn't so attractive/immodest/worldly/domineering/ambitious/unsubmissive/bold/opinionated/grumpy/nagging/bossy" blah blah blah! All the talk of having all the responsibility that comes with all the power is just bloviating. The same with all the talk of the mean "serving their wives." Garbage. 

 

In our family-integrated church, there were only two men besides DH that ever took turns walking in the back with the fussy babies or toddlers, instead of expecting their wives to always do it. The services were 2-2 1/2 hours long and there was no nursery because the whole FIC movement is anti-nursery and anti-Sunday School. Since most of the women were quiverful, this meant they always had a baby, a toddler, a pre-schooler, plus some older kids, while often being pregnant. This meant that a women could go 25+ years without ever being able to sit through the whole service, while most of the men sat through every single one. What kind of "servant leadership" is that? And this was at a church that as legalistic as it was (between the Vision Forum and Michael Pearl followers), was moderate compared to many in the movement!

 

When the men say they are "servant leaders," it's because they think making all the decisions is "servant leadership." I missed the part where Jesus told his disciples to serve others by bossing them around!

 

 

 

 

When the ten heard about this, they were indignant with the two brothers. Jesus called them together and said, â€œYou know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their high officials exercise authority over them. Not so with you. Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant, and whoever wants to be first must be your slave— just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”

 

Hmmm...according to this, the wives who are expected to obey their domineering husbands are going to end up first! Phillips and others like him are teaching men to be like the Roman rulers, expecting all their whims to be catered to!

 

So many of these men have convinced themselves that deciding things is really, really tough, and that women just aren't up for it. No, poor old us, we just can't handle important decisions, so they need to "serve" us by rescuing us from having to make big choices. See, they really are just trying to help! Why should we have to go through pro-con lists, use wisdom, seek advice from experts, or pray about it when they can be the Holy Spirit for us and just tell us what to do?!

 

One of the young women at the church got married shortly after we left. She barely knew the young man. He picked her wedding dress and she wasn't allowed to see it or try it on until the day of the wedding. I heard it didn't fit well at all. Even worse, some friends still at that church told me that he quickly began trying to control her contacting her family. He sounds like an abusive jerk, but her dad is the all-knowing patriarch that isn't to be questioned.

[FaithManor]

Because many of us participating are not Christians and your post is meaningless to us. Because many who ARE Christians believe Doug and his Vision Forum to be beyond "sin" and to be abuse, brainwashing and a cult.

Absolutely, and then there are those of us who are Jesus Followers and yet absolutely will.not.defend. a wolf devouring the flock. I can discern between situations in which it is not appropriate to out the offender, and those situations in which it is VITAL to do so.

 

To the OP Joanne was responding to,

 

We can disagree about where that line is. But, that will not cause me to be silent, or Joanne, or Mommaduck, or anyone else who has seen this kind of horror first hand and either was a victim of it, or has helped victims through it. Jesus was very clear about the Pharisees. Paul was very clear as well. We need to be clear as well.

 

Faith

[JumpyTheFrog]

there are those of us who are Jesus Followers and yet absolutely will.not.defend. a wolf devouring the flock. 

 

 

When we left our church, we lost all our friends there except for one family. I had considered some of them like family and they just threw us away. We recovering sheep who have been wounded by these spiritually abusive men will not only call out the wolves we see, we will gather around the still damaged sheep to protect them. When they try to get away from the wolves, we will be there to support them, especially when their friends and family turn on them. 

[maize]

In which book did Mr Beaver say this?


Bill

it's in the Lion the Witch and the Wardrobe. Go look it up and use it in your essay😊

ETA I found it, in the last chapter, not an exact quote but Mr. Beaver tells the new kings and queens that Aslan is wild, not like a tame lion.

[Chris in VA]

(Bill, Tirian says it in the Last Battle, and Mr. Beaver says something like it--"not like a tame lion"--in LWW.)

[eloquacious]

Mr. Beaver said it earlier, too ... something like, "He is not tame, but he is good," before Aslan even appears to the children.

[Terabith]

In which book did Mr Beaver say this?

The literary merit (or lack thereof) of C.S. Lewis is a discussion for another thread. I lean towards Tolkein's view myself.


Are you asking me?

Bill

 

Bill, The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe.  Chapter 8, when they are discussing who Aslan is.  It's page 80 in my copy.

 

Re my question about what on earth an emotional affair is, that's up to anyone.  

[PeacefulChaos]

Wow.

I had never heard of this guy until today. 

I think I had seen a Vision Forum booth at the homeschool convention I attend - I need to be sure not to purchase from there, though I doubt I would, anyway - I tend to lean away from overly religious stuff in general.

I read all of 'Jen's Story' that was linked way back - wow. 

And Faith's post with all the info - :svengo:

 

For real, this is just crazy.  I shuddered and/or teared up when I read half of the stuff on this type of 'ministry'. 

 

On a totally different note, I feel very sad for his family.  This doesn't really pertain to anything in general, and I haven't seen anyone being overly judgmental of him or anything - more, I've seen people warning others not to be overly judgmental.  I just had it come to me that I don't think sinning in some way - even adultery - is that far out of the realm of possibility for *most* people.  I have friends who say it would 'never happen' in their marriage, they couldn't imagine having an affair or their spouse doing the same... my take on things has shifted a lot in the last few years.  I think it would be possible for the majority of people, but that it depends on them making the right decision not just once, but several times over the course of their interactions with the opposite gender.  And it wouldn't necessarily be *everyone* of the opposite gender - I don't know how many people it would be.  But no one is above sinning or anything, just because they are a Christian or anything else. 

 

 

ETA: Oh, and re: an emotional affair has always been described as when a man or woman begins going to someone of the opposite sex aside from their spouse for... whatever.  Like if they had a bad day at work, but rather than talk to their DH/DW at home about it, they search out this other 'friend' to talk to them.  While at the same time harboring more affectionate feelings for the person than just a friendliness, obviously, and, usually over time, having the result of less feelings for their spouse. 

[Susan Wise Bauer]

Please keep the discussion civil, folks. (As in, don't pick on each other; discuss the issue.)  Thanks.

 

SWB

[itsheresomewhere]

Just to throw this out there- who says it was really a woman.

A few weeks ago, I was googling something and it somehow brought up a few things about him. It was few people who had dealt with him in some fashion. He is just one creepy guy IMO.

[PeachyDoodle]

Mr. Beaver said it earlier, too ... something like, "He is not tame, but he is good," before Aslan even appears to the children.

 

That quote's in my siggy, fyi.  :laugh:

[Trish]

If he's in a position of authority, particularly such high and public authority, the woman can be made to feel that she has no choice and that no one would believe her if she tried to avoid or ask for help from the others in ministry around them.

Is there some sort of implied physical threat? Because if a man was a worker in an organization where the woman was in charge, I can't picture anyone saying he couldn't consent if such a situation came up. If we're talking an adult of normal intelligence.

I don't think that's giving her enough credit in a free will sense. She can't consent?

[FaithManor]

Is there some sort of implied physical threat? Because if a man was a worker in an organization where the woman was in charge, I can't picture anyone saying he couldn't consent if such a situation came up. If we're talking an adult of normal intelligence.

I don't think that's giving her enough credit in a free will sense. She can't consent?

It's about the conditioning. It isn't so much can she cognitively give consent, but more that she is conditioned to not go against the hierarchy. He is the highest authority figure in the organization, in the sect. From birth girls within this tradition are conditioned to never question male leadership, period. Their fathers cannot be questioned for any reason, the pastor cannot be questioned for any reason, the eldership cannot be questioned, and a woman must always submit herself to the will of her father, her husband, and the eldership. In Doug's own writings he has made it very clear that women cannot EVER go against the wishes of the man in authority over them, at least not one claiming to be a Christian. From outside the sect, they probably wouldn't have a problem if she said, "BUG OFF!" to some other male. But then, they isolate the women very effectively so that they aren't in the presence of men who raised outside the fellowship.

 

Out of this has grown the speculation, though know one is claiming to actually know this, that she MIGHT not have been fully able mentally to say "NO!" with the degree of strength that we healthy, non oppressed women would be able to do...much less react in a self-defensive manner which would make clear to him to leave me alone or else, and make good on the else by injuring some danglers. There are women out there that are so beaten down by this system that it simply does not occur to them to protect themselves from a male making inappropriate gestures or forcing attention on them that they do not want.

 

Again, we don't know. However, it is plausible because Vision Forum treats, brainwashes, and educates women in much the same manner as FLDS and ATI/Gothard followers treat their women. So, it would certainly not be surprising if this occurred.

 

Faith