Has this been discussed? Doug Phillips *resigns* from Vision Forum (Ministries)!

[Guest Julie Anne]

Will Phillips be resigning from being an elder at Boerne Christian Assembly? His letter at VFM didn't mention it.

 

Hoppy,
 

Minutes ago, someone commented on my blog that he stepped down as teaching elder in February, saying things have been "brewing" for some time.  This commenter could not provide a source for this information, however.

[Murphy101]

I have a real problem with the idea that conditioned women can't give consent but men can. In theory, this is a community where everyone is being conditioned. Community conditioning requires perpetuating it to others and self in the community, but only the males are held accountable for it.

No woman is having any kind of an affair with a guy bc she just can't help herself.

I'm willing to believe he is a dirtbag, but I see nothing to make me think any higher of her.

I tend to think he is an egotistical turd.

The best I can say is the gal had bad taste in men.

ETA:
VF

However, it is plausible because Vision Forum treats, brainwashes, and educates women communities in much the same manner as FLDS and ATI/Gothard followers treat their women relationships So, it would certainly not be surprising if this occurred.
 
Faith

I don't think they are just a bunch of men who target women. (Tho I'm sure some of those types naturally gravitate to such organizations.) If anything, the women are far more pushy and harsh to other women than the men are. And VF peddles quite a bit to men and raising sons. I've never ever had a man approach me about this. But I have known several women IRL who I think spiritually abuse and bully other women into feeling they should buy into this carp.

It seems like a sexist excuse to claim the women just can't say no but expect the men to suddenly and spontaneously ditch their conditioning and intuitively know she is just playing along bc she does know any better.

[Crimson Wife]

I'm not even sure at what angle to come at this.  
 
1. you're more in denial then I was yesterday.
2. Are you saying that this women is so "dumb" that she had no idea she and DP were having a lengthy romantic relationship?
3. Or are you trying to say it is all completely his fault?
 
She knew. She was involved. They are both wrong.

I've been in the position where what I thought was just a Platonic friendship with a married male co-worker was seen by him as an invitation to hit on me. Totally embarrassing and fortunately he backed off REAL quick when I made it clear to him that I had no interest. Some guys just have such raging egos that they misinterpret simply friendliness as "oh, she must want me!"

[Juniper]

I have a real problem with the idea that conditioned women can't give consent but men can. In theory, this is a community where everyone is being conditioned. Community conditioning requires perpetuating it to others and self in the community, but only the males are held accountable for it.

No woman is having any kind of an affair with a guy bc she just can't help herself.

I'm willing to believe he is a dirtbag, but I see nothing to make me think any higher of her.

I tend to think he is an egotistical turd.

The best I can say is the gal had bad taste in men.

 

When someone has your husband, your in-laws, your children, your livlihood, your health insurance, community, and to go against is to be labeled a Jezebel, divisive, unsubmissive (and when you are conditioned that those things are equal to losing your salvation and being hated by God), you are not an equal able to freely consent to a relationship.

Again, most of that is from my situation, but from what I am hearing (and no I will not share sources) the women in question's family may have been finacially dependent on VF. That is the insidiousness of it. First they get your finances, then your family, then your future becomes enmeshed with their success.

To leave, to say "No," means to regect the God you have come to know. You stand on the edge of a knife and in the panic of that moment you slip onto the side of keeping everything you know intact.....and that is when you are truly caught, because now they have your shame.

.....and who will believe you are a victim? After all, you are an adult and could have said, "No."  :(

[Laurie4b]

It was a slip of the tongue.... Sort of.... I admit to getting these men mixed up at times because I guess I don't pay close enough attention. And their names are both Doug. They both are controversial, and do they both hold to similar theology? Or not. Sorry about that.

 

Absolutely nothing to apologize about.I've made the same mistake,

[LucyStoner]

I have a really hard time understanding how men like this even find women to court or marry. The only way that is possible is brainwashing women to think very little of themselves. It is inherently abusive. I recall reading that whole thing about how his wife never goes out without him in case he needs to text her for a cup of coffee. As if having a Y chromosome makes him impotent to pour hot liquid into a cup?! If my husband called me every time he wanted a cup of coffee, he'd be getting the coffee. Without the cup.

I pour coffee for him all the time. I iron his shirts. I pack his lunches. But he never gets up without seeing if I need something and tackles any chore he has time for even on a packed schedule. He also pours ME coffee quite a bit and can wake with a baby with the best of them. That is what a real man does.

[Murphy101]

When someone has your husband, your in-laws, your children, your livlihood, your health insurance, community, and to go against is to be labeled a Jezebel, divisive, unsubmissive (and when you are conditioned that those things are equal to losing your salvation and being hated by God), you are not an equal able to freely consent to a relationship.

Again, most of that is from my situation, but from what I am hearing (and no I will not share sources) the women in question's family may have been finacially dependent on VF. That is the insidiousness of it. First they get your finances, then your family, then your future becomes enmeshed with their success.

To leave, to say "No," means to regect the God you have come to know. You stand on the edge of a knife and in the panic of that moment you slip onto the side of keeping everything you know intact.....and that is when you are truly caught, because now they have your shame.

.....and who will believe you are a victim? After all, you are an adult and could have said, "No." :(

It sounds like this goes for the men too. Their wives, their livelihood their everything is tied to this and god forbid they aren't man enough to keep their women folk and kids in line.

One could argue the men are just as brainwashed and could just walk away too. But I suspect it is tremendously harder than just walking away for the men too.

I don't understand how it can be that all encompassing and pervasive and then say in the same breath, but only the women didn't really have a choice. Isn't that just perpetuating the idea that they are helpless women who need others to think and act for them?

[Murphy101]

I have a really hard time understanding how men like this even find women to court or marry. The only way that is possible is brainwashing women to think very little of themselves. It is inherently abusive. I recall reading that whole thing about how his wife never goes out without him in case he needs to text her for a cup of coffee. As if having a Y chromosome makes him impotent to pour hot liquid into a cup?! If my husband called me every time he wanted a cup of coffee, he'd be getting the coffee. Without the cup.

I pour coffee for him all the time. I iron his shirts. I pack his lunches. But he never gets up without seeing if I need something and tackles any chore he has time for even on a packed schedule. He also pours ME coffee quite a bit and can wake with a baby with the best of them. That is what a real man does.

I'm all there with you. If my husband said I couldn't go out without him bc he might need another can of pop, I'd laugh and tell him walking to and from the kitchen is healthier for him.

[Blueridge]

I read on several sites last night that Doug Phillips officially resigned from Vision Forum *Ministries* which is the non-profit entity. The persons reporting this said that apparently he is still involved with the for-profit side of VF. I went to the Vision Forum website this morning and he is still listed as the president, (and he had posted a blog post there just yesterday as though none of his indiscretions had occurred.) So to me this public 'confession' seems like more of a smoke screen and he plans to continue on as 'normal'. I hope DP will publicly confirm this soon.

[cave canem]

I read on FB last night that Doug Phillips officially resigned from Vision Forum *Ministries* which is the non-profit entity. The person reporting this said that apparently he is still involved with the for-profit side of VF.

 

DP started VF, an online retail business selling books, toys and other do-dads.  It is not his source of power over women but does keep food on the table.  I have never heard of a shop owner giving the business away when caught in a dalliance.

[*Lulu*]

It sounds like this goes for the men too. Their wives, their livelihood their everything is tied to this and god forbid they aren't man enough to keep their women folk and kids in line.

One could argue the men are just as brainwashed and could just walk away too. But I suspect it is tremendously harder than just walking away for the men too.

I don't understand how it can be that all encompassing and pervasive and then say in the same breath, but only the women didn't really have a choice. Isn't that just perpetuating the idea that they are helpless women who need others to think and act for them?

Here's the difference:

Doug is not a cog in the VF patriarchy machine; he is the man that causes all those cogs to turn.

[*Lulu*]

Even in denominations that are not patriarchy-centric any church can become a breeding ground for abuse of power by spiritual leaders when small amounts of patriarchal teaching become combined with emphasis on the submission to spiritual authorities.

If you believe absolutely in a literal hell, then being threatened with it can feel as dangerous as if your abuser were holding a gun or a knife.

[JumpyTheFrog]

DP started VF, an online retail business selling books, toys and other do-dads. It is not his source of power over women but does keep food on the table. I have never heard of a shop owner giving the business away when caught in a dalliance.

Ah, but the business sells dozens of audio teachings by him and other creepy men like him, plus DVDs, books, and overpriced toys. (Anybody who has ever looked at the print catalog will notice that all the good toys are in the boy section. The girls only have dolls and things like that, while the boys get the telescopes or whatever science stuff they have.)

[JumpyTheFrog]

Vision Forum sells products by Sm Davis. Here's the list of what Davis includes in his $429 DVD set (available on his website) for parenting a difficult child: https://www.solvefamilyproblems.org/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=Difficult%2DChild

I couldn't find it on the website this time, but I remember about four or five years ago he was definitely promoting his collections as a formula. He went so far as to say that if you bought the cheaper audio versions instead of making your kids watch the DVDs, the program wouldn't work.

Notice the titles of some of the so-called parenting talks:

-One that teaches you why you must spank all difficult kids (people like this don't give exceptions for any reason)
-Several about how wives must submit (they mean obey) to their husbands if they want their kids to behave
-One about the "bride-price" and how young men are required by God to pay their future Father-in-Law for his daughter. I heard one of Phillip's sons-in-law did this. Phillips also "knighted" one of his sons.

In the courtship section, he has additional talks on betrothral. In his view, strict courtship is too filled with the "wordly, daying spirit" and a couple should have no emotional attachment to each other until they are betrothed (a binding engagement). If they broke of the relationship before marrying, the community will consider them divorced and they will never be allowed to marry.

This is the kind of garbage VF promotes and encourages, and often sells.

[sunflowerlady]

Yes, the VF catalog sells recordings of teachings by Doug as well as other leaders of that movement. They also sell books that support their beliefs. Oh, they sell DVDs also. I wonder if they will remove items from their inventory due to this.

[cave canem]

Ah, but the business sells dozens of audio teachings by him and other creepy men like him, plus DVDs, books, and overpriced toys. (Anybody who has ever looked at the print catalog will notice that all the good toys are in the boy section. The girls only have dolls and things like that, while the boys get the telescopes or whatever science stuff they have.)

 

I did not endorse the store.  People are free to stop buying overpriced toys and audios by creepy men.  Perhaps the business will wither as customers express disapproval of the owner's extra-curriculars. 

 

However loathsome DP may be, it does not follow that he should give up his toy store because he was found unfit for the pastorate and quit his other "ministry."  Such a move would gladden the hearts of those who find him irksome, but I don't think it's reasonable to expect as a matter of course.  A retailer does not have the same onus of trustworthiness as a pastor, no matter what the merchandise is. 

 

It is also unseemly to emphasize that his store makes money.  Why else do people run retail businesses?  Some people even make money selling their own books justifying the abuses of trust/power that ended their political office/pastorate/sports hero status.  Making money just isn't the same as abusing trust, even when one supports the other.  The good thing is that we can refuse to participate in a market that offends us. 

[cave canem]

Yes, the VF catalog sells recordings of teachings by Doug as well as other leaders of that movement. They also sell books that support their beliefs. Oh, they sell DVDs also. I wonder if they will remove items from their inventory due to this.

 

I could be completely wrong about this by now, but last I heard, it was *his* store.  He is the they you write about.  I would be surprised to hear that he removed his own teachings from the store, but I suppose he could go to an all-toy/books for children format if having the teachings for sale made the thing unprofitable.  
 

[Juniper]

It sounds like this goes for the men too. Their wives, their livelihood their everything is tied to this and god forbid they aren't man enough to keep their women folk and kids in line.

One could argue the men are just as brainwashed and could just walk away too. But I suspect it is tremendously harder than just walking away for the men too.

I don't understand how it can be that all encompassing and pervasive and then say in the same breath, but only the women didn't really have a choice. Isn't that just perpetuating the idea that they are helpless women who need others to think and act for them?

Actually, you are right. It does go for the men (just not for the perpatrator). What you are describing is what saved my marriage. I had to recognize that dh was as much a victim as myself in many ways. Now, after our exit if my dh had not done the very difficult work of seeking out his own secular counselors to help sort out his wounds and what part of his upbringing had poised him to be vulnerable to this dynamic, we would probably be divorced.

 

Now, if dh had refused to face reality and wanted to keep me forced into that "role" he would have been both victim and abuser. It is the cycle. Thankfully, although we hit a very rough patch he was willing to do whatever it took to become a healthy adult and a great husband.

I have shared with a few people one of the things that he did that was a turning point for us. This was about 1.5 years after leaving (healing from these situations is very lengthy) and I was still very angry at dh for keeping us in that church as long as he did (I had pleaded for years to get out, but all I had was my gut feeling that something was very wrong and as women in that dynamic it would be seen as controlling if we left, becuase I wanted to) I told him I would remian living with him, raising the kids and working on myself, but he needed to agree to pay for me to go to nursing school so that I could choose to remain in the relationship by choice and not out of neccesity. I made it clear that once I could support myself I might still chose to leave him. He did not bat an eye, agreed, and was incredibly supportive.

When I say that the woman "may" not have had much of a choice I am only speaking to the dynamic between the woman and DP. It is very likely that her dh is a victim as well. (not in exactly the same way, but in a very similar vein).

If the dynamic was reversed and we were discussing a charismatic, powerful and dangerous woman who had control of her followers/employee's finances, families and spiritual life and she preyed on a man under her authority he would be just as much a vicitm. Same if it were a male/male or female/female. Gender has nothing to do with it.

[Impish]

You know what always confuses me about these situations?

 

Why is it that the passage about a submissive wife is loudly proclaimed...but what about the 2nd part? Yanno, the one where men are to love their wives as Christ so loved the church?

 

Cause somehow, I don't remember Christ being abusive and controlling w/the Church...seems to me He died for it.

[Trish]

Maybe the men can't consent either. The brainwashing is so strong that the brain can't be used in normal ways.

[PeachyDoodle]

Even in denominations that are not patriarchy-centric any church can become a breeding ground for abuse of power by spiritual leaders when small amounts of patriarchal teaching become combined with emphasis on the submission to spiritual authorities.

 

Many, many evangelical churches are falling into the trap of following a "vision-casting" pastor whose plans for the church come from God. Questioning the vision is tantamount to questioning God Himself. Ask me how I know this.
 

[eloquacious]

You know what always confuses me about these situations?

 

Why is it that the passage about a submissive wife is loudly proclaimed...but what about the 2nd part? Yanno, the one where men are to love their wives as Christ so loved the church?

 

Cause somehow, I don't remember Christ being abusive and controlling w/the Church...seems to me He died for it.

 

 

The secret is that Doug Phillips et. al really want to get up and get themselves a cup of coffee. They are practically chomping at the bit to make breakfast. They are giving up their own desires for the betterment (spiritual and physical) of their wives. So self-sacrificial of them!

[Seasider]

Just a heads up, this thread has been linked over at TWW (www.thewartburgwatch.com), with particular attention to Faith's posts. That's not a bad thing, just wanted to remind everyone that the WildWildWeb is a public place, whether or not you expect it to be so.

Y'all should check out TWW. It's an eye opening place!

[Juniper]

Just a heads up, this thread has been linked over at TWW (www.thewartburgwatch.com), with particular attention to Faith's posts. That's not a bad thing, just wanted to remind everyone that the WildWildWeb is a public place, whether or not you expect it to be so.

Y'all should check out TWW. It's an eye opening place!

some of those ladies are hilarious!!!! :)

[Alessandra]

Here is my take.

 

......

 

Okay, flame away now. I've got my big girl panties on! LOL

 

Faith

 

What a great post! I especially appreciated your take on DP not admitting things as a way to prevent his wife getting a divorce. It sounds like a very plausible theory. 

 

Yes, I understand. It's hard to get the whole story. I have more, but I can't put it out here. It's saved to my hard drive and includes writings in Doug's own hand to families that have left his church. But, when those were put on the web, Doug started defamation lawsuits against those that published his letters and the written allegations plus disciplinary actions of his church against the "offenders". The judge ordered the those involved to take them off the web pending the settling of the case, and due to DP's vicious litigation technics, those of us in possession of these letters aren't putting them out there again. I have shown these to my pastor and other elders of my church. I happened to download and keep them back before the judge ordered it, and only because I happened upon some blog posts and was so dismayed, "What the HELL!" is pretty much where my brain went, that I just copied and pasted this stuff into word documents. But, I can guarantee you Doug's minions monitor the web big time, and I'd be the next one sued if posted them here or anywhere else. I am not certain how it's defamation when the man wrote them himself, or when these things were issued on church stationary or VF ministries letterhead, but since I do not know the whole result of the defamation suit (gag order), I am unwilling to put myself in that position.

 

His blogs used to speak for themselves. I was going to link to the archives, but before I wrote my post I went out to his blogs and found, not surprisingly, A HUGE number of them deleted or revised with indications that they were revised between October 1st and October 30th. He's good at his lawyer trade, so covering he's adept at covering his tracks. All I can say is that from the Biblical perspective, there is  "Great Cloud of Witnesses"...enough to have to definitely give some weight to the allegations against him.

 

The brainwashing, well, that's typical. When you think about how easy it can be for a captor to brainwash his prey and in a relatively short period of time, then one can imagine how easy it is to do to one's own children. What does a three year old know about what God or legitimate, mainline church teaching about father/child or husband/wife, male/female relationships? Nothing...she only knows what mommy and daddy tell her. In these sects, dare I say cults...there are definitely cultish tendancies...isolating youth so that they only consort with those that believe what their parents believe is easy. We talk about FLDS a lot here, and the similarities are there. Polygamy no, abuse, neglect, brainwashing, isolation, grooming of victims, male domination, extreme female submission, s*xually deviant behavior, ...it's all there.

 

Don't start me on RC Sproul Jr.! He makes the two Dougs look almost normal, but then when his financially shady dealings, along with startling s*xual improprieties (multiple girls in the youth group, a mother and her daughter, etc.) plus supplying alcohol to minors was outed, both Dougs also publicly supported him. To me, this only indicates slime defending slime. I won't go any further. Sproul Jr. deserves his own thread, and it would be one that makes your stomach twist into knots.

 

Faith

 

Scary.

 

ATI has re-education centers.  I have no idea if this particular individual is involved with that, the reality is that women are sent to them for a variety of reason. Adultery would definitely be one, but anything from wanting to wear something the husband/pastor didn't like, or make-up that wasn't approved, or wanting to attend church somewhere else, or not keeping the house perfect, or not wanting to have another child, or....there is a book on Amazon right now by one of the survivors who was sent to a Gothard re-education facility when her husband and the pastor of the church in cahoots with her brother decided she wasn't submissive enough. Sensory deprivation, isolation, certain types of things we would describe at best as something reserved for the treatment of criminals of serious crimes and at worst, torture, were done to her there.

 

 

Faith

 

Do you have a link to the book you mentioned? I read I Fired God, mentioned in another thread, and found it illuminating -- not in the sense that I wanted to follow that path, but because it showed how ingrained the abuses were and how extremely difficult it was to escape. 

[Blueridge]

nm

[Alessandra]

Is this the book?
 

Honestly, I can't tell from looking at the Amazon previews. The one pp mentioned was about ATI. Not sure about this one, but for $3.03 kindle version, I think I'll get it anyway.

THX!

 

ETA deleted link as per request of pp.

[LucyStoner]

Don't start me on RC Sproul Jr.! He makes the two Dougs look almost normal, but then when his financially shady dealings, along with startling s*xual improprieties (multiple girls in the youth group, a mother and her daughter, etc.) plus supplying alcohol to minors was outed, both Dougs also publicly supported him. To me, this only indicates slime defending slime. I won't go any further. Sproul Jr. deserves his own thread, and it would be one that makes your stomach twist into knots.

Faith

And Veritas Press hired Sproul Jr after a lot of those allegations come out.

[6packofun]

One interesting thing about this whole situation for me has been finding out that bloggers and other folks I read online actually appreciated the so-called wisdom of Doug Phillips and VF so much that they are heartbroken over this.  It IS sad for the Phillips family; I wouldn't wish this kind of situation on anyone although I know that God can be glorified through it.  But I'm discovering those who apparently have aligned themselves with this patriarchal belief system and I had no idea!  It makes my respect for them go down quite a bit and I'm glad for the enlightenment.  (For example, a blog that is linked somewhat regularly on The Gospel Coalition had an article on it with much sadness over Phillips, someone that they had grown to love and respect.  Well, now I know.  And that blog will be read much less by me if that's the kind of discernment this person has!)

[StephanieZ]

I believe that a person conditioned in a cult-like religion or sect or cult lose their ability to truly make choices. Both men and women can be unable to act on their own will and will consent to their deified leadership to whatever they ask. This is part of the nature of a cult, to demand and cultivate blind obedience to and reverence for some particular prophet/leader human being.

In cults, you can have adult men and women committing suicide, committing heinous acts of violence, even killing their children or allowing their children to be abuse in vile ways.

Indeed, I have read that in a major polygamous religion, a major deified prophet repeatedly 'married' women who were already married to other men! Their husbands presumably on some level, whether before or after the fact, also consented to this arrangement since they remained in the church. This same prophet supposedly also 'married' a fourteen year old girl with her parents presumed consent. I am not naming the prophet or religion as I don't want to offend anyone, and I don't actually know for sure it is true. In any event, I think it is totally believable that people can and will agree to all sorts of abuse to themselves or loved ones if they believe their salvation or that of their loved ones is on the line.

Sick, sick, sick . . .

[Guest rn2011]

I joined just to reply to this topic but no, I am not a sock puppet. lol

I actually know people who are employed by VF. I used to call them friends but I was disowned when I chose to go to nursing school.

 

What surprises me is that he even had contact with women. Since women aren't to work in his reality, I am trying to imagine a scenerio where he could have a lengthly relationship with one.

[FaithManor]

I joined just to reply to this topic but no, I am not a sock puppet. lol

I actually know people who are employed by VF. I used to call them friends but I was disowned when I chose to go to nursing school.
 
What surprises me is that he even had contact with women. Since women aren't to work in his reality, I am trying to imagine a scenerio where he could have a lengthly relationship with one.

He and Belle have had more than one older teenage/young unmarried twenty something
female that has "volunteered" as a nanny - he does not pay because females are
not allowed to earn money but volunteering for him is one thing they are allowed to
do while waiting for a husband - and the wives and single daughters of male
employees are encouraged to volunteer at the profit making arm of VF as a way
of using their talents to further the cause...again no pay. So there aren't any
paid female employees around but plenty of chances for him to be around other
women as the boss man.

Faith

[mommaduck]

He and Belle have had more than one older teenage/young unmarried twenty something
female that has "volunteered" as a nanny - he does not pay because females are
not allowed to earn money but volunteering for him is one thing they are allowed to
do while waiting for a husband - and the wives and single daughters of male
employees are encouraged to volunteer at the profit making arm of VF as a way
of using their talents to further the cause...again no pay. So there aren't any
paid female employees around but plenty of chances for him to be around other
women as the boss man.

Faith

 

That is just wrong. I'm shocked there hasn't been a lawsuit against them for gender discrimination (men can be paid employees, but women can only volunteer). Even Puritans and Victorians from yesteryear would be shocked.

[LucyStoner]

Oh that's right. I forgot. Women's work has no value. So why would they need wages?

And how is this that Proverbs 31 gal? That lady bought a field and earned an income from it.

[*Lulu*]

Oh that's right. I forgot. Women's work has no value. So why would they need wages?

And how is this that Proverbs 31 gal? That lady bought a field and earned an income from it.

Stop it right now.

You know cherry picking verses is one of the Devil's tools to distort the gospel.........

Unless it supports our agenda of the day. Then God is totally good with it.

[FaithManor]

That is just wrong. I'm shocked there hasn't been a lawsuit against them for gender discrimination (men can be paid employees, but women can only volunteer). Even Puritans and Victorians from yesteryear would be shocked.

Well he's a huckster of an attorney so you know he has his button covered. I imageine it works like this. They only post open positions at Boerne Assembly and since
the women have been conditioned to understand that they cannot apply for work,
there are no applications, resumes, or requests on file from women seeking paid
paid work. They show up to volunteer, but they never submit paperwork so there
is no paper trail. On top of which, he publishes photos of the company employees
and this includes the female volunteers so it looks like women work for him when
no pay check is generated. As long as he does not publicly advertise for hire,
I am sure he can manage to fly under the radar.

Of course he has no intention of abiding by secular hiring practices and any church
or pastor that would call this into question, would be instantly deemed heretical.

He's a clever narcicist with a license to practice law and a cadre of followers
willing to violate any reasonable code of ethics to defend him. This is how he
gets away with it, and I'm not saying anything new or inflammatory. There is plenty
of public evidence to back this up, and his own words condemn him.


Faith

[Word Nerd]

work for a man who isn't your husband as a volunteer = good

work for a man who isn't your husband for pay = evil

 

Seems legit.

[Seasider]

work for a man who isn't your husband as a volunteer = good
work for a man who isn't your husband for pay = evil

Seems legit.

Yeah, right? Not double minded at all....

[FaithManor]

work for a man who isn't your husband as a volunteer = good
work for a man who isn't your husband for pay = evil
 
Seems legit.

Staggers the imagination doesn't it!

This is why it is hard for me to contemplate why people buy into the insanity.
To borrow a quote from Foghorn Leghorn of Looney Toons fame, "It just don't add
up!"

[albeto.]

Looking at this from the outside, I see people express how awful it is for a woman to be in such subjugation to men simply because she was born female, but the same community (same individuals?) will support the idea of "wifely submission," as positive, and the only reason is because the wife was born female. So the problem doesn't seem to be subjugation, but how much subjugation is expected/respected. She's allowed to draw a line here ("I am submissive to my husband in the big decisions, but I decide when/where/how often to work outside the home") or there ("I cover my head to show submission to my husband and do not think about working outside the home/family"), or anywhere in between. But this is the same issue - subjugation assigned by gender. The difference is a matter of how much a woman is supposed to submit. Well, why isn't it appropriate for a Christian woman to accept this submission as far as VF advocates? If a woman takes the faith seriously, and believes the bible to be trustworthy in such matters, then why blame or belittle her for following it more intensely, for drawing the line a little bit further? And conversely, why not encourage this line of subjugation be removed altogether? It seems that without an objective marker to identify how much is appropriate, critiquing others' choices is nothing more than personal rationalization. 

[Seasider]

As to why people buy into it, it is certainly mind boggling, but I can think of a few good reasons.

Herd mentality, because it is supported by the local church, the local homeschooling group, the big state homeschooling conference. When everyone you interact with thinks this is a good idea, there's no one throwing out red flags. I see new idealist home schoolers and authoritarian church attendees fall all over the VF stuff.

If you were raised in this model, you might not think to question it.

What I'd really like to see is a correlation study of first-wave participants and the history of abuse (particularly in the wife's family). Someone whose been beaten down might think the authoritarian protector is something to be desired.

Then once you're in, you are effectively anchored by children, lack of money and lack of job skills, as so many have already pointed out in this thread.

It is very sad and I believe far from what Jesus intended for His people.

[Seasider]

Looking at this from the outside, I see people express how awful it is for a woman to be in such subjugation to men simply because she was born female, but the same community (same individuals?) will support the idea of "wifely submission," as positive, and the only reason is because the wife was born female. So the problem doesn't seem to be subjugation, but how much subjugation is expected/respected. She's allowed to draw a line here ("I am submissive to my husband in the big decisions, but I decide when/where/how often to work outside the home") or there ("I cover my head to show submission to my husband and do not think about working outside the home/family"), or anywhere in between. But this is the same issue - subjugation assigned by gender. The difference is a matter of how much a woman is supposed to submit. Well, why isn't it appropriate for a Christian woman to accept this submission as far as VF advocates? If a woman takes the faith seriously, and believes the bible to be trustworthy in such matters, then why blame or belittle her for following it more intensely, for drawing the line a little bit further? And conversely, why not encourage this line of subjugation be removed altogether? It seems that without an objective marker to identify how much is appropriate, critiquing others' choices is nothing more than personal rationalization.

I believe opinions will differ, but many Christians do NOT believe that the wife is exclusively the submissive party. Those holding the egalitarian point of view believe in mutual submission along the lines of placing the needs and interests of the spouse ahead of oneself, not as a martyr, but as any loving couple would do. It is not an arbitrary level of submission determined by the wife. Authority belongs to God, and not to the "patriarch" of the immediate family.

[mommaduck]

Staggers the imagination doesn't it!

This is why it is hard for me to contemplate why people buy into the insanity.
To borrow a quote from Foghorn Leghorn of Looney Toons fame, "It just don't add
up!"

I can tell you as a former supporter, I had NO idea that this was how employment was handled. Shouldn't surprise me. It's much like Gothard's volunteer workforce of underaged young adults.

[FaithManor]

I believe opinions will differ, but many Christians do NOT believe that the wife is exclusively the submissive party. Those holding the egalitarian point of view believe in mutual submission along the lines of placing the needs and interests of the spouse ahead of oneself, not as a martyr, but as any loving couple would do. It is not an arbitrary level of submission determined by the wife. Authority belongs to God, and not to the "patriarch" of the immediate family.

Yes and there are also many of us who attend churches where they believe Galatians
3:8 to he very thought provoking..."In Christ there is no Jew or Gentile or male
and female." (Paraphrase because I can't get my kindle to copy/ paste.)

Which means the subjugation of one gender to another is unJesus like.

Faith

[Mrs Mungo]

Looking at this from the outside, I see people express how awful it is for a woman to be in such subjugation to men simply because she was born female, but the same community (same individuals?) will support the idea of "wifely submission," as positive, and the only reason is because the wife was born female.

What community are you speaking of here? I've never seen this board as one in which wifely submission is regularly put forth as a positive. At best, I would say that it is tolerated that some women choose that path for themselves.

[livetoread]

Regarding the legal aspects of discrimination, seems to me that religious exception trumps all. As long as he can show that it is church doctrine, he has a large amount of latitude. Churches are exempt from many, if not all, civil rights issues as long as they can prove it is part of their religious beliefs and that the doctrine is applied equally. He couldn't pay some married women and then not others claiming doctrine, for example, but he could refuse to pay any married women according to doctrine.

I'm not an attorney, but that's my understanding.

[Alessandra]

Regarding the legal aspects of discrimination, seems to me that religious exception trumps all. As long as he can show that it is church doctrine, he has a large amount of latitude. Churches are exempt from many, if not all, civil rights issues as long as they can prove it is part of their religious beliefs and that the doctrine is applied equally. He couldn't pay some married women and then not others claiming doctrine, for example, but he could refuse to pay any married women according to doctrine.

I'm not an attorney, but that's my understanding.

 

This is my understanding too. There have been a number of cases (I remember one that Catholic University was involved in) that were decided in favor of religious employers who did not give equal rights/equal pay to female employees. Looked for the references, but couldn't seem to turn them up.

[Brilliant]

Regarding the legal aspects of discrimination, seems to me that religious exception trumps all. As long as he can show that it is church doctrine, he has a large amount of latitude. Churches are exempt from many, if not all, civil rights issues as long as they can prove it is part of their religious beliefs and that the doctrine is applied equally. He couldn't pay some married women and then not others claiming doctrine, for example, but he could refuse to pay any married women according to doctrine.

I'm not an attorney, but that's my understanding.

 

That wouldn't apply to Vision Forum, the catalog company.  Only to Vision Forum Ministries, the non-profit organization.

 

If young women are really doing unpaid "volunteer" work for VF, the Texas Employment Commission should look into it.  I bet they need an actual complainant, though, and who would complain?

[Meriwether]

You know what always confuses me about these situations?

 

Why is it that the passage about a submissive wife is loudly proclaimed...but what about the 2nd part? Yanno, the one where men are to love their wives as Christ so loved the church?

 

Cause somehow, I don't remember Christ being abusive and controlling w/the Church...seems to me He died for it.

These conversations always leave me...agitated? I'm not sure that is the right word. I am conservative. I go to a conservative church. Our pastor talks about submission quite a lot. He mentions the words "meek and quite spirit" more than occasionally. But we never hear just one side of it. We always hear how men and women are equal before God. How a husband who does not treat his wife well will not have his prayers answered. How a husband is to know and understand his wife. How each marriage will look different because each couple is different. He takes pains to say a marriage with the woman staying home and homeschooling is no more Godly than a woman working with the kids in daycare, for example.

 

When I hear "conservative or fundamentalist", I think of churches like mine. The women do not feel beaten down. We don't feel less than. We have strong opinions and personalities. The marriages in my  church are not like the ones described in this thread.

[Joanne]

These conversations always leave me...agitated? I'm not sure that is the right word. I am conservative. I go to a conservative church. Our pastor talks about submission quite a lot. He mentions the words "meek and quite spirit" more than occasionally. But we never hear just one side of it. We always hear how men and women are equal before God. How a husband who does not treat his wife well will not have his prayers answered. How a husband is to know and understand his wife. How each marriage will look different because each couple is different. He takes pains to say a marriage with the woman staying home and homeschooling is no more Godly than a woman working with the kids in daycare, for example.

When I hear "conservative or fundamentalist", I think of churches like mine. The women do not feel beaten down. We don't feel less than. We have strong opinions and personalities. The marriages in my church are not like the ones described in this thread.

I can't comment on you church or its marriages. But there are many who feel that any submission based on gender is wrong and inherently unhealthy. The words wrapped around it don't matter. And we'll process the relative feelings of the women involved with our own opinions of how and why they don't feel oppressed. No amount of explanation will change that.