Has this been discussed? Doug Phillips *resigns* from Vision Forum (Ministries)!

[Blueridge]

Heartbreaking. :(

http://www.visionforumministries.org/issues/news_and_reports/statement_of_resignation.aspx
ETA: I have since read that Doug Phillips has actually resigned from Vision Forum *Ministries* which is the non-profit entity, so apparently (many are now assuming) he is still involved with the for-profit side of VF.

[Juniper]

I have been trying to figure out how I feel about it. Not heartbroken. More like relief. Not for the pain the rest of the family is feeling, but that hopefully the festering wound that has been there all along will finally be treated and healed.

 

But, I don't think that is going to be a very popular opinion. :(

[sunflowerlady]

Yikes. That's terrible. Unfortunately, this type of thing no longer shocks me. I feel sad for his family.

[Blueridge]

I think I am still in disbelief...and heartbroken for his wife especially. She has been in a sort of a bubble (I assume) and I cannot imagine her feelings. It did seem as though his 'public confession' was rather sanitized. 

[Laurie4b]

I respect him for taking full responsibility for his behavior--especially since it could have been explained away, rationalized, etc. since it wasn't overtly sexual.May his family have the space to heal and may he experience life-altering grace.

[JumpyTheFrog]

The cynic in me wonders whether he has more integrity than all the other famous pastors that don't step down, or whether the truth is much worse than he has publicly admitted and that's why he's resigning.

[Juniper]

Having been through something similar, and knowing the scope of the organization. I have the feeling this letter was part of an agreed upon severance package which will include a clause about not saying anything else that could reflect negatively on Vision Forum....and I would assume there will be a settlement in the works with the other women dependent on her not saying, writing, or communicating anything that could reflect negaively on the organization. We will never know the full truth of their relationship, but I have suspicion there is more to it, based upon the fact that he is completely resigning his position. It is also important to remember that if she was a parishoner or in some way connected to the organization, she cannot "consent" to a relationship with him.

I do feel for his wife and both grieve for the disorienting pain she is going through, while hoping she comes out of this stronger and wiser.

[Blueridge]

I know so many families personally that have 'bought' the VF teachings (and all their catalog goodies) and I grieve for them, too. I worry for the homeschooling community every time one of their 'representatives' falls from grace publicly. 

[JumpyTheFrog]

It just shows that even following all the rules (legalism) Vision Forum promotes (modesty, stay-at-home adult daughters and wives, strict courship rules that lead to quasi-gender segregation) don't work the way they promise to prevent this sort of thing. If they don't work for middle-aged men, why should we expect the rules to work as promised for horny teens and young adults?

[sunflowerlady]

Yes many families have bought into the VF teachings and lifestyle. This will be difficult for those people, but at the same time, maybe these people will have their eyes opened. It is not good to put people on a pedestal and think that they are examples of an ideal life.

[sunflowerlady]

Exactly, HoppyTheToad. I agree totally and that is what I was trying to say.

[Sisyphus]

I always found all the dressing up, teas and daddy-daughter stuff in Vision Forum to be really weird. Feel badly for his wife, and family, though. Curious how my "apply this formula to life and get perfection" hs acquaintances will see this.

[albeto.]

The cynic in me wonders whether he has more integrity than all the other famous pastors that don't step down, or whether the truth is much worse than he has publicly admitted and that's why he's resigning.

 

The cynic in me thinks if he didn't get caught doing something far more scandalous than having a close friendship with a lady friend he wouldn't have stopped and publicly resigned. Makes me wonder what really went down, who is pulling the strings for real, and if his wife or children will question the credibility of the Christian claims to be a "new creature," because, man these questions have got to be rummaging through lots of hurt heads right now.

[albeto.]

Yes many families have bought into the VF teachings and lifestyle. This will be difficult for those people, but at the same time, maybe these people will have their eyes opened. It is not good to put people on a pedestal and think that they are examples of an ideal life.

 

I dunno. Cognitive dissonance is a powerful mental tool to help avoid some genuinely painful facts. When I was a faithful Catholic, I found every reason under the son to rationalize scandals in the Catholic church. I can't imagine it would be any different for someone who is faithful to the patriarchal ideology. 

[Plink]

I must be skeptical, but I tend to assume that anyone who preaches dramatically against anything is trying to heal their own internal problems. They aren't good naturedly trying to help others, but self-centeredly assuming that the rest of the world must be exactly like them, dealing with the same thing.

To say I am not surprised is an understatement.

[Michelle My Bell]

Sad but not unexpected. Their whole premise is to lift the man so high that he is king. He simply had the King complex. 

[Seasider]

I think this letter describes the tip of the iceberg. I understand there's also some investigation of finances involved.

I am sad for his family. But I have been sad for them for a long time, living under that patriarchal figurehead. I think this event will actually be liberating for them, albeit painful.

[Word Nerd]

It is sad. I wonder if the woman in question has had people come alongside her "with love and admonition, providing counsel, strong direction and accountability." I doubt it.

[Juniper]

It is sad. I wonder if the woman in question has had people come alongside her "with love and admonition, providing counsel, strong direction and accountability." I doubt it.

 

This is what makes me angry in these situations. If she is a part of that sphere many will blame her. If it is as bad as my situation she may even need protection. :(

[HRAAB]

It is also important to remember that if she was a parishoner or in some way connected to the organization, she cannot "consent" to a relationship with him.

Can you explain what you mean by saying she cannot consent to a relationship with him.

[KrissiK]

I am not terribly familiar with VF and all their teachings. I've seen and admired the catalog, I have a feel for what they represent.... But I guess my question is, (in response to a previous post) does Wilson say that following his teachings will guard you against moral downfall? Did he specifically say that? I guess , I'm wondering because if he did specifically say that if a person lives that way, they are immune from moral downfall then you can say that his teachings don't hold water. But my impression is that he is just espousing a certain philosophy, results not guaranteed, then.... That's just what it is. A different way (they think better way) to live, but we're still all sinners, susceptible to the same sins. Does that make sense?

[Tap]

The cynic in me thinks if he didn't get caught doing something far more scandalous than having a close friendship with a lady friend he wouldn't have stopped and publicly resigned. Makes me wonder what really went down, who is pulling the strings for real, and if his wife or children will question the credibility of the Christian claims to be a "new creature," because, man these questions have got to be rummaging through lots of hurt heads right now.

Yeah, but you can do a lot sexually (!) that doesn't include knowing someone in a "Biblical sense." 

[Mommy22alyns]

Wow.  That's pretty much all I can muster.  I have had strong reservations about the whole VF philosophy for a long time.

[PrincessMommy]

I respect him for taking full responsibility for his behavior--especially since it could have been explained away, rationalized, etc. since it wasn't overtly sexual.May his family have the space to heal and may he experience life-altering grace.

 

I agree.  What little I know about VF, it's not a company I would wish to assoc. with, but I do respect him for taking responsibility for his actions and stepping down. 

[eloquacious]

The cynic in me thinks if he didn't get caught doing something far more scandalous than having a close friendship with a lady friend he wouldn't have stopped and publicly resigned. Makes me wonder what really went down, who is pulling the strings for real, and if his wife or children will question the credibility of the Christian claims to be a "new creature," because, man these questions have got to be rummaging through lots of hurt heads right now.

 

I have similar thoughts sometimes, but I do know of a pastor who stepped down because of inappropriate texting. In this case, I don't know much about the man and his family beyond the surface public persona. I haven't done too much research into VF and so on, though we used to get their catalogs. (Not sure how we got on the list!) I think I will silence the cynic within and choose to believe that it was precisely as they said: something which could have been far worse, (in our human eyes) but wasn't allowed to progress to that level. Similarly, I choose to believe that he, being an honest man, he is confessing to what happened in his heart, which (as Jesus pointed out) is just as sinful. Call me naive, but sometimes that's the way I roll. :-P

[Juniper]

Can you explain what you mean by saying she cannot consent to a relationship with him.

 

If he was in a place of perceived power, (spiritually, finacially or socially), and she was a member of his church, official volunteer or an employee of some other arm of his buisness, than she will be in a position to press charges of sexual assault under the same rules that govern teachers from sleeping with students, therapists from sleeping with clients and Doctors from sleeping with patients.

There is less legal precendence (than with Drs, teachers and therapists) as many victims feel so much shame and do not get the support they need to fully understand that this was not a relationship between equals. But, it is becoming more common in it usage as a legal defense.

 

Now, if she had no idea who he was...that is a different story.

 

Remember, this is a group that hits "spiritual authority" very hard! IF she was a part of that movement a good lawyer will use that. A case can be made that she did not feel she could regect his advances without reprecussion. That saying, "No," to her spiritual authority is equal to rebellion against God.

[mommaduck]

Can you explain what you mean by saying she cannot consent to a relationship with him.

 

If he's in a position of authority, particularly such high and public authority, the woman can be made to feel that she has no choice and that no one would believe her if she tried to avoid or ask for help from the others in ministry around them.

[Chris in VA]

I think any man or any woman, regardless of their moral philosophy, can do sinful, inappropriate things. I don't know if it really has anything to do with what he teaches or not.

 

SWB's going to have to do an update to Art of the Public Grovel. So many public figures have fallen since that came out. Very sad.

[MFG]

A cautionary tale. Any Minister of the gospel or other "ministry leader" should learn to recognize the pitfalls inherent in pointing to himself and his own moral behavior rather than pointing to Christ and His righteousness.

[mom@shiloh]

Sad.

[HS Mom in NC]

Since I don't know the details first hand:

 

1) No matter far it went, if it's at all inappropriate, it was right that he step down whether he's genuinely repentant or not.

 

2) I think the way he approaches gender roles does set men up for pride issues. There are other approaches to traditional gender roles that are more humble and servant oriented in nature, whether I agree with their classifications of gender roles or not. We need to ask if unsound doctrine in this area contributed to this problem or not.

 

3) As Christians we are called to follow Jesus, not people.  We're filled with The Holy Spirit and have access to Scripture making us both capable of and responsible for using Biblical discernment about who to take advice from.  We need to teach good, sound doctrine that makes us to fearlessly and unapologetically hold ourselves and leadership accountable for unbiblical behavior. We can't blindly put our faith in human leadership to do our thinking for us and we can't  be crushed or disheartened when human beings sin. It's going to happen and we need to be prepared to react appropriately.

 

4) We need to be cunning as serpents and harmless as doves.  Good testimony in this type of situation is for believers and his local congregation to hold this guy accountable,  for this guy to confess and humbly submit to what ever consequences come from it (legal and otherwise) and for all of us to respond with, "Create in me a clean heart, oh God and renew a right spirit within me..." so we aren't tempted to sin in the same way too or to sin by being proud in response.

[Catwoman]

Am I the only one who did this :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: when they read the letter of resignation?

It sounded so incredibly phony and scripted to me. I didn't sense sincerity; I thought he was trying to do damage control... and not very effectively, IMO.

And when he mentioned his "beloved bride," I just about did this: :ack2: :ack2: :ack2:

I'm with the others who suspect that this is just the tip of the iceberg, and that there is a lot more to this story.

Sorry to be so cynical.

[HRAAB]

If he was in a place of perceived power, (spiritually, finacially or socially), and she was a member of his church, official volunteer or an employee of some other arm of his buisness, than she will be in a position to press charges of sexual assault under the same rules that govern teachers from sleeping with students, therapists from sleeping with clients and Doctors from sleeping with patients.

There is less legal precendence (than with Drs, teachers and therapists) as many victims feel so much shame and do not get the support they need to fully understand that this was not a relationship between equals. But, it is becoming more common in it usage as a legal defense.

 

Now, if she had no idea who he was...that is a different story.

 

Remember, this is a group that hits "spiritual authority" very hard! IF she was a part of that movement a good lawyer will use that. A case can be made that she did not feel she could regect his advances without reprecussion. That saying, "No," to her spiritual authority is equal to rebellion against God.

 

 

If he's in a position of authority, particularly such high and public authority, the woman can be made to feel that she has no choice and that no one would believe her if she tried to avoid or ask for help from the others in ministry around them.

 

Thanks.  I see what you mean.  It seems rather unlikely this woman would press charges against him; or if she does, if she would receive any support from other members - if she's a member of his church.

 

The more people exalt themselves, the farther they have to fall.

[mamakelly]

Oh that's sad. I guess it's what happens when you lift "men" up so high, they can't help but fall.

[tex-mex]

Sad but not unexpected. Their whole premise is to lift the man so high that he is king. He simply had the King complex. 

 

:iagree: :iagree: :iagree:

 

Nothing new under the sun with mankind.  We're a flawed lot. 

 

Power corrupts no matter if you are a rock star, politician, Big Fish in a little pond, or a Pastor.  I cannot tell you how many leaders in ministry have done far worse and not asked for help.  My guess?  Someone knew of the inappropriate behavior and informed the Board finally. They confronted him and he confessed.  They then asked him to step down.

 

I'm not a VF fan, but hoping his family will survive this blow without much more damage.  Very sad. 

 

That being said, I always find it interesting that no one points a finger to the other woman.  She had certainly known he was a married man and yet she either pursued him or encouraged the inappropriate office behavior.  Look at Jessica Hahn and Jim Bakker, for example.  Or Reille Hunter and John Edwards.  There is a profile of a CERTAIN type of woman whom looks at these "men of power" and hunts them down for an opportunity.  Whether it is a one night stand, having a $$ sugar daddy, or getting pregnant (Blake Griffin's baby mama drama) on purpose to have a $$ lifestyle, and more.  These certain types of women are a blight on all of us who are trying to empower ourselves and be good role models for young girls.  Men fall easily into this age-old "trap" of a femme fatale and even KINGS are vulnerable to the charms of a beautiful woman with not-so-sincere intentions. 

 

:rant:  (Rant over...) I really feel badly for the wife and family of this man.

[Catwoman]

Of course, but ya gotta admit it seems extra hypocritical in this case. I guess I do expect people in higher positions to practice what they preach. Oddly they seem to be even more likely to screw up big time than the average Joe. Maybe it isn't that way, but it "seems" so. Maybe because if I did this nobody out there in the world would care or hear about it.

I agree. Practice what you preach, buddy, or stop preaching.

I think some of these guys have giant egos and believe they are so important and wonderful that no one will ever dare to rat them out, but they're thinking with the wrong head when they believe that a disgruntled ex-mistress will never threaten to go public and ruin their carefully crafted images -- which is quite possibly what happened in this case.

[Catwoman]

That being said, I always find it interesting that no one points a finger to the other woman. She had certainly known he was a married man and yet she either pursued him or encouraged the inappropriate office behavior. Look at Jessica Hahn and Jim Bakker, for example. Or Reille Hunter and John Edwards. There is a profile of a CERTAIN type of woman whom looks at these "men of power" and hunts them down for an opportunity. Whether it is a one night stand, having a $$ sugar daddy, or getting pregnant (Blake Griffin's baby mama drama) on purpose to have a $$ lifestyle, and more. These certain types of women are a blight on all of us who are trying to empower ourselves and be good role models for young girls. Men fall easily into this age-old "trap" of a femme fatale and even KINGS are vulnerable to the charms of a beautiful woman with not-so-sincere intentions.

I don't care if the other woman threw herself at him constantly. It was up to him to say no. Period.

[Mary in VA]

I am not terribly familiar with VF and all their teachings. I've seen and admired the catalog, I have a feel for what they represent.... But I guess my question is, (in response to a previous post) does Wilson say that following his teachings will guard you against moral downfall? Did he specifically say that? I guess , I'm wondering because if he did specifically say that if a person lives that way, they are immune from moral downfall then you can say that his teachings don't hold water. But my impression is that he is just espousing a certain philosophy, results not guaranteed, then.... That's just what it is. A different way (they think better way) to live, but we're still all sinners, susceptible to the same sins. Does that make sense?

 

Vision Forum was run by Doug Phillips, not Doug Wison-different companies.

 

Twelve years ago my husband and I were at a conference where Doug Phillips spoke.  We had just returned to homeschooling and moved to the states from overseas.  We had no idea his position in the homeschooling community.  We went up to speak to him during a break. He was very friendly and my dh, an attorney, was speaking to him about something legal.  My dh said in passing that I was also an attorney.  The temperature in the room seemed to drop instantly and the look Doug Phillips gave me was very cold.  It turned instantly. Over the years as I learned more about him I realized his reaction to me could have been totally expected.

 

I am very sorry for his family.  I hope this situation leads to a vibrant relationship with the Lord for Mr Phillips, away from the legalism he espoused.

[Danestress]

Vision Forum is not my cup of tea. By a long shot.

But I still don't get some of the criticism here. Of course there is more to the story. He has shared what is relevant and what he needs to share with his followers. The rest is seriously no one's business but his wife's. Why would he share more?

We have no idea if the other woman has a support network or has been rebuked. Because again, it is none of our business. If the media gets hold of it and makes it public, he will have to live with that. He promoted himself and became a public figure, so of course people are curious. But why should he or anyone close to him reveal more?

[Word Nerd]

Thanks.  I see what you mean.  It seems rather unlikely this woman would press charges against him; or if she does, if she would receive any support from other members - if she's a member of his church.

 

The more people exalt themselves, the farther they have to fall.

 

 

If she has the same worldview as Phillips and is from inside that circle (and that seems likely), she would probably see herself as just as culpable as he is (perhaps even more so) and not even think of pressing charges.

 

I know someone who had an affair with her doctor. They both divorced their spouses and are married now. No charges were made, nor were there any professional repercussions for the doctor.

[Word Nerd]

That being said, I always find it interesting that no one points a finger to the other woman.  She had certainly known he was a married man and yet she either pursued him or encouraged the inappropriate office behavior. 

 

I bet there are plenty of people pointing a finger to the other woman—especially if she's inside his religious circle. 

[eloquacious]

Oops-responded to the wrong post. Nevermind!

[JumpyTheFrog]

I understand there's also some investigation of finances involved.
 

 

Can you explain this?

 

 

does Wilson say that following his teachings will guard you against moral downfall? 

 

This is Doug Phillips, not Doug Wilson. They both have extreme beliefs, but they are different people. 

 

Everything about Vision Forum promotes the idea of following a formula. That's why they promote parent controlled courtship, meaning even adult children can't go out for coffee without a chaperone and permission from the dad. I went to a family-integrated church/Vision Forum church for five years. Phillips teaches men they are the kings and tells them to set a 200 year vision for their families. I saw some slides that one of the elders had at a New Year's goal setting type event. It listed his teenage daughter as having her first baby at age 21, even though she was maybe 18 at the time with no prospects. The plan showed the approximate years for his two younger kids (one who was maybe in kindergarten at the time) to get married and which year his daughter might have her 8th baby. 

 

 

 

That being said, I always find it interesting that no one points a finger to the other woman.  

 

Well, the link in the initial post gave no information about the other woman. But if she is surrounded by Vision Forum types, she doesn't need our condemnation. They will put all the blame on her, saying things like "She should've stayed home with her dad or husband" or "She wasn't dressed modestly enough." Phillips, however, will have many people who admire him even more for stepping down.

[HRAAB]

 

Everything about Vision Forum promotes the idea of following a formula. That's why they promote parent controlled courtship, meaning even adult children can't go out for coffee without a chaperone and permission from the dad. I went to a family-integrated church/Vision Forum church for five years. Phillips teaches men they are the kings and tells them to set a 200 year vision for their families. I saw some slides that one of the elders had at a New Year's goal setting type event. It listed his teenage daughter as having her first baby at age 21, even though she was maybe 18 at the time with no prospects. The plan showed the approximate years for his two younger kids (one who was maybe in kindergarten at the time) to get married and which year his daughter might have her 8th baby. 

 

 

That is seriously twisted.  Sounds like he had deified himself.

[Seasider]

Hoppy, it's the headline at TWW, a developing story. Sorry if I mentioned it prematurely - time may certainly prove me wrong.

[Guest]

That is seriously twisted.  Sounds like he had deified himself.

 

I agree.  :confused1: Ewww. Plans for when your little girl will have her 8th baby? That sounds...delusional. 

[sunflowerlady]

As for not pointing a finger at the woman or calling her out-in my experience most people in these type of groups blame the woman disproportionately. They claim that she seduced him, "made him stumble", went after a "man of God" etc. I have even heard of wives of cheaters being chastised for "letting themselves go" and causing him to look elsewhere.

[DianeW88]

Sad for his wife...but not terribly shocked.  Is it just me (and that's entirely possible) or did his letter of resignation seem to have a tinge of smugness to it?

 

[Sisyphus]

Well, next to "smug" in the dictionary is his picture, so that goes without saying.

[Pawz4me]

I don't know a thing about the man or Vision Forum, but what I think I "hear" in his resignation letter is a bit of martyrdom.