PS tells us we have to buy a $100 calculator--for Honors ALGEBRA

[Chris in VA]

So, I took Algebra. I took Algebra II. I took Geometry.

 

I never needed a calculator. Well, IIRC, I certainly didn't need one in ALGEBRA 1.

 

I don't have dd's stuff in front of me to provide an example, but isn't it a bit unusual to need a graphing calculator so early? 

 

I feel sorta PO'd that they are not making the kids do the work themselves. 

 

 

[*Michelle*]

For Algebra I?  We weren't required to have a graphing calculator until trig/analytical geometry.  And even then, my parents couldn't afford it and I just muddled through without one.  I'm not up on the latest features, but wouldn't a graphing calculator be able to just solve an algebra problem?

[emzhengjiu]

My 16 yo DD is taking Algebra 2 with Jann in Texas.  She doesn't want the kids to use graphing calculators.  I want my daughter to learn how to use one, but only when it's appropriate.  Now, she needs to learn and internalize the math not just calculator key strokes.

[Night Elf]

My dd's Algebra class required a calculator, but it wasn't a graphing one. It helped with formulas I think. I can't remember. But the same one is required for her geometry class this year. It was only about $30. I'd have to ask her about it when she gets home. She isn't in honors math though.

[*Michelle*]

Out of curiosity, I just searched the Amazon AppStore and found lots of graphing apps for under $10.

[NorthwestMom]

*Michelle*, my DS's STEM public school won't let them use phone apps for math because of concerns about cheating, as well as the fact they are not allowed for standardized tests, so it's better to get used to the actual calculator you will use while testing.  He is very frustrated by that.

 

DS is taking geometry and they said he does not need a graphing calculator yet, but it's coming...

[Seasider]

I think algebra 1 is early to "need" a graphing calculator. I hope the teacher wouldn't let them skate over learning the manual process well before using the calculators.

 

However, I do see an advantage to getting a student very comfortable using a device that she will be allowed to use and will need for college entrance tests. Some schools have sophomores take the PSAT, so that's when they're starting to run the gamut of such things.

 

This link to the college board site offers more to think about.

 

http://www.collegeboard.com/student/testing/psat/about/calculator.html

 

Your student, if college bound, is going to need that type of calculator in a year or so anyway. And I understand the sticker shock - I had to buy two of them in August.

[Snickerdoodle]

A neighbor who is a math educator drones on and on about this with me every time we see her.    Apparently I am a total failure for not having already introduced the graphing calculator.  My child is doomed b/c  he doesn't use a graphing calculator.

 

I AM SO SICK of hearing about the graphing calculator. 

[sunnyday]

I seem to recall being required to have a graphing calculator for Algebra in 1992. I also recall when I got to college a few years later, many of my friends were able to program the darned things and I was a bit envious that I didn't get more guided exposure to all the features that they were capable of. (As for the sticker shock, I have a friend in California whose high school kids are required to bring their iPads to school! Holy moly!)

[Seasider]

I seem to recall being required to have a graphing calculator for Algebra in 1992. I also recall when I got to college a few years later, many of my friends were able to program the darned things and I was a bit envious that I didn't get more guided exposure to all the features that they were capable of. (As for the sticker shock, I have a friend in California whose high school kids are required to bring their iPads to school! Holy moly!)

Bingo on the guided exposure.

 

And, I'm feeling your friend's pain. Two iPads start attending school with my kids In January. Guess what's for Christmas this year.

[bettyandbob]

Chris, I live in the same district as you. My dd was required to have the TI84 for honors algebra in 7th grade. She was not to bring it to school though, they had a class set locked at school. I purchased it. I think dd started the use it a little last year (9th grade) in Algebra II. She will use it this year in her IB math class, as she will be getting into calculus by the end of the year.

 

So, your dd may not need it this year even though the district requires it, but she will need it eventually as she gets into Algebra II and beyond.

 

I majored in Chem. I took a lot of math. I never, even in college used a calculator in a math class. I did use calculators in Physical Chemistry when I was using differential equations to apply math to chemistry. I honestly believe the introduction of the calculator is stunting some of the students' understanding of math and I could go on for pages with all my arguments. I made sure my dc could do the math without the calculator. dd has noticed her friends use the calculator a lot more than she does.

[Cinder]

When ds1 went through high school (just grad last year) they needed the graphing calc for alg2. By the time ds2 started high school they needed one for alg1. Supposedly to get them used to using it so that by the time they got into the trig stuff they'd be comfortable with it. It seems so strange to me because I got through college--3 semesters calc, advanced calc, diff eq, 3 semesters calc-based physics--with a TI-30 which had nothing fancier than trig functions. Of course, this was back in the day when we still used trig tables--still have mine!

[amsunshine]

Wow, I'm not sure a $100 calculator is necessary.  Ours was around $25 on sale, but I'm sure it doesn't have all the functions that the $100 one has.  I got one that Singapore Math recommends for 7th grade level (pre-Algebra) and although she hardly uses it, dd has enjoyed the few lessons where she has gotten to use it.  I know I didn't use a calculator in Algebra, back in the dark ages.  But then, I'm really questioning my own math education right now.  My dd has done things like fractional exponents (in AoPS Pre-Algebra, and now Dimensions Math 8A).  I know I never touched fractional exponents in either Pre-Algebra or Algebra. :huh:

[WishboneDawn]

Out of curiosity, I just searched the Amazon AppStore and found lots of graphing apps for under $10.

There's a wonderful one for Android that's free.

[fairfarmhand]

My dh went through 5 years of engineering school with a 35 dollar 35 x. (He graduated from college in 1997.)

[bobbeym]

DS19 didn't need a graphing calculator until he was taking DE math from the local CC.  DS15 only needs a scientific calculator for geometry.

[sassenach]

Check ebay. We just picked up DD's graphing calculator for $20 (new would have been $120).

[bettyandbob]

Chris,

The calculator required is one of the calculators approved for use on the SAT, so I guess this is the district's way of getting the kids comfortable with the device over the next few years. A graphing calculator purchased a couple days before the SAT is of no use to the test taker--you need to know how to use it for it to have any value.

 

Again, as a teacher I totally disagree with this trend, but if your dc is in school you have to follow their requirements. Your dd should be able to use the device for years though, so I wouldn't bother with a cheaper model now, when you will have to upgrade.

[Seasider]

My dh went through 5 years of engineering school with a 35 dollar 30 x.

Not to be sassy, but I went through college with no email. No Internet. No cell phone. Of course it's possible.

 

I understand that math doesn't change. They can and should learn the math. However, from my observations, there's an expectation of increased computation speed when sitting for tests. Math minded STEM students might be just fine, but others need to learn how to use available tools to their advantage.

[Katy]

I went to a high school that required a graphing calculator for algebra 1 too.  At the time I thought it was great:  we needed to learn to program our calculators to give us the answers, not to do the actual math.

 

My only suggestion would be that if she's considering going out of state for college, either also tutor her in real, non-calculator algebra, or have her just go ahead and sign up for remedial math in college, because she's not going to do well there, especially if she ends up in a state that doesn't allow calculators for high school math. 

[In The Great White North]

 

 

Check ebay. We just picked up DD's graphing calculator for $20 (new would have been $120). 

 

 

fairfarmhand, on 20 Sept 2013 - 09:59 AM, said:

My dh went through 5 years of engineering school with a 35 dollar 30 x.

Not to be sassy, but I went through college with no email. No Internet. No cell phone. Of course it's possible. 

 

I understand that math doesn't change. They can and should learn the math. However, from my observations, there's an expectation of increased computation speed when sitting for tests. Math minded STEM students might be just fine, but others need to learn how to use available tools to their advantage. 

 

 

You know why they are available on ebay?  Because a lot of colleges don't allow them in their basic calculus class (which is the only math non-math-majors usually take) and many don't allow them at all.  It's too easy to cheat with them.

 

The high school is requiring them entirely because the College Board has written the AP Calc test assuming kids have them.  DC have told me that the graphing function isn't even needed for the PSAT or SAT.

 

 

[In The Great White North]

 

 

especially if she ends up in a state that doesn't allow calculators for high school math. 

 

Are there any?  Which ones?

[Joanne]

We require them at our school for high school math.

[bettyandbob]

I went to a high school that required a graphing calculator for algebra 1 too.  At the time I thought it was great:  we needed to learn to program our calculators to give us the answers, not to do the actual math.

 

My only suggestion would be that if she's considering going out of state for college, either also tutor her in real, non-calculator algebra, or have her just go ahead and sign up for remedial math in college, because she's not going to do well there, especially if she ends up in a state that doesn't allow calculators for high school math. 

 

 

What state would that be? All the major text book publisher introduce the calculator in 3rd grade and increase use from there.

 

The SAT allows the TI 84--they are expecting a certain speed in test completion. I suspect the ACT does as well.

 

I think the calculator is completely unnecessary through differential equations. However, I'm not going to not buy my dc a TI 84 and have her do poorly because of it.

[NicksMama-Zack's Mama Too]

Both of my kids are is ps high school taking Algebra II. The school provides Ti-84's for the student's to use during classtime and provides a link to a pc version/Ti-84 emulator for home use. We live in a very diverse economic area, so the school doesn't require anyone to buy an actual Ti-84 calculator.

 

So far, the teacher has sent home work that involves solving problems without the calculator (using tables and such) and then with the calculator. I am very happy with this teaching method.

[In The Great White North]

 

 

 However, I'm not going to not buy my dc a TI 84 and have her do poorly because of it.

 

Having observed my first two guinea pigs, I am not teaching dc3 how to use the Ti-83 (that her siblings have left here because they are not using it in college). Time will be better spent learning the actual math.

 

 

[bettyandbob]

Having observed my first two guinea pigs, I am not teaching dc3 how to use the Ti-83 (that her siblings have left here because they are not using it in college). Time will be better spent learning the actual math.

 

I already taught my dd and ds algebra at home before they used the calculator at school, because I believe they need to know the math. Not giving them the required calculator would not have impaired their math ability, but it would have meant slow speed on testing. That's where the unnecessary penalty comes in .

[mathmarm]

I loathed calculators as a highschool Math teacher because kids came to my class with no math facts, number sense, or proficiency in calculation. I disallow/don't use calculators in any of my college classes, though the school has a blanket policy that tells kids to buy them. I encourage students not to use them for their homework and I forbid them during the test.

 

I'm not against using calculators, I'm against not using common sense and the human brain. Calculators are nifty tools, they have their place in the world and they aren't the end of the mathematical world, but they are a handicap to students because parents and teachers allow them to be. I use all sorts of software to look at  (3d) graphs, but I could graph 90% of them by hand correctly in just a few minutes, as well. I can talk about the implications of the things that I observe in graph.

 

Talk to the teacher that will be teaching the class and see just how much calculator will they be using and for what. Using a calculator in Algebra 1 and 2 seems like a bad sign...Learning to use them/getting exposure to them is a great idea, but using them daily (or weekly!) for run of the mill Algebra topics? I get a bad feeling from that.

[Katy]

Ahh, I take it back.  I went to school in new england, and it looks like both the state I was in and the surrounding states have changed the rules and now require graphing calculators for high school math.

[regentrude]

As a college physics instructor, I see the detrimental effect of introducing calculators in school too early, using them too often, and treating them as a substitute for thinking. Students are calculator dependent for computations, do not recognize things like perfect squares or simple trig values, have no clue about the behavior of basic functions and can not sketch them, can not look at a function and have an idea how to find out its behavior without a calculator.

 

There should be no need for a calculator in high school math if curriculum were used that is well thought through and that emphasizes conceptual understanding over pressing buttons. Of course, much of high school math curriculum is dumbed down and includes needless computations, sigh. In our homeschool, we do not need a calculator through calculus.

A scientific calculator is useful in science classes, so that the numerical computations do not distract from focus on the actual science.

 

My DD took the subject SAT Math 2 with a $10 scientific calculator and did very well.

We will teach the graphing calculator in time for college, but I find it a shame that curricula are structured so that students can not get by without one.

 

For algebra 1, a graphing calculator is ridiculous. The learning effect would be much greater if students were actually graphing with pencil on paper.

[In The Great White North]

 

 

 Not giving them the required calculator would not have impaired their math ability, but it would have meant slow speed on testing. That's where the unnecessary penalty comes in .

 

We're going through the Blue Book and I'm curious as to what problems will be slowed by not having a graphing calculator?  

[regentrude]

We're going through the Blue Book and I'm curious as to what problems will be slowed by not having a graphing calculator?  

 

We have not found any problems on the SAT and the subject SAT for math that required a graphing calculator.

 

Only for very few problems, the graphing capability of the calculator would even be useable. For most of those, conceptual insights provided the answers without resorting to any calculations. For a few of them, a short calculation by hand was required. Perhaps for those isolated problems, graphing calculator might have been quicker, but that would be more than compensated for by all the other problems that can be solved faster without.

If the student is really good at judging when the calculator shaves off a few seconds, it may be an advantage. But a student who uses the calculator whenever possible will be slower than one who thinks first.

 

[bettyandbob]

 

If the student is really good at judging when the calculator shaves off a few seconds, it may be an advantage. But a student who uses the calculator whenever possible will be slower than one who thinks first.

 

 

This is why dd uses her calculator a lot less than her classmates. She can see quickly how to solve. I knew that was not going to be taught in school. That does not mean she does not use it at all. For the calculator is not a crutch, but an advantage.

 

For most students I see the calculator is a crutch.

[AngieW in Texas]

Just realize that  lot of universities do not allow graphing calculators to be used on quizzes or tests.  I was getting my dd familiar with the graphing calculator over the summer and then we read the syllabus for her calculus class and found out they weren't allowed. She was very happy. She loves her Casio Fx-115ES which only cost me $12 at Office Max. It is also my favorite calculator.

 

 

[msjones]

Have you asked the teacher why it is required?  It does seem early.

 

That being said, graphing calculators are something like word processing programs;  it's a new day and things tools won't be going away.  

[MariannNOVA]

I paid $125. at Staples.

[bettyandbob]

Have you asked the teacher why it is required?  It does seem early.

 

That being said, graphing calculators are something like word processing programs;  it's a new day and things tools won't be going away.  

 

it is a district requirement. this is a very large district (one of the largest in the country) and the teacher may not really know. Like I said my dd was in honors algebra 1 in the district 3 years ago. I think her teacher used them once or twice in class.

[Arcadia]

Here a TI-84 is recommended in the school supplies list for Algebra 1 onwards.  There are loaner sets in each school but it is such a common requirement around here for so many years that most parents already bought a new or used one in advance. 

 

. (As for the sticker shock, I have a friend in California whose high school kids are required to bring their iPads to school! Holy moly!)

My friend's middle school child was issued a loaner iPad by the school.  Her child's school just roll out the loaner iPads for all middle school kids.  I have not heard anyone saying that they have to buy their own iPads.

LAUSD (Los Angeles)  is getting an ipad for each kid to use

"Over the next two weeks, iPads will be distributed at 45 other campuses. The district's 650,000 students, from kindergarten on up, are supposed to receive them over the next year or so.

The district is paying $678 per device — higher than tablets cost in stores — with pre-loaded educational software that has been only partially developed. The tablets come with tracking software, a sturdy case and a three-year warranty." (Aug 27, 2013, link)

[sunnyday]

Thinking back, I believe I was confused. In my 1992 Algebra it was a *slide rule* that was required. (Provided by the teacher in exchange for something like a $5 donation.) I don't think the calculator came in until Trig/Pre-calc in 1994. ;)

[houseofkids&pets]

When dd entered 7th grade last year (in ps), a calculator was required by the teacher.  This was not a graphing calculator, so it was only around $10-12.  This year, kids in the 8th grade advanced math class have to get the graphing calculator and these do cost around $100.  I wonder what we will have to purchase for 9th grade :glare: ?

[In The Great White North]

 

 

Thinking back, I believe I was confused. In my 1992 Algebra it was a *slide rule* that was required. (Provided by the teacher in exchange for something like a $5 donation.) I don't think the calculator came in until Trig/Pre-calc in 1994.

 

:lol:   I wasn't issued a slide rule til college.  And a $150 RPN scientific calculator.  Both mandatory.  

 

 

[In The Great White North]

 

 

Oops

[creekland]

Many students gasp at middle son's college when they find out they can't use graphing calculators in Calc classes.  Some have said they feel they are learning math for the first time.

 

Our schools have pushed calculators too much IMO.  I see very little actual math knowledge from the majority of the students.  One time a student in an Alg 2 class couldn't figure out 2x100 without her calculator... seriously?  Something is flawed and I'm glad to see colleges (at least) picking up the teaching - but not all head to college and of those who do, not all take Calc.

 

Calcs are a nice tool, but they should just be a tool, not the be all, end all, of learning math (learning what buttons to push without knowing why or what each button does).

[Dmmetler]

FWIW, a scientific calculator is allowed on the EXPLORE, which is used as a high school placement test here. I bought my DD one for Christmas last year since she was taking the EXPLORE for talent search, and I figured she'd freak out if she didn't have one and everyone else did. Turned out she didn't use it (or her scratch paper, for that matter). She's doing AOPS Pre-algebra this year and had figured out by the end of chapter 2 that if you did the problem the right way, a calculator wasn't at all useful ;)

[regentrude]

. She's doing AOPS Pre-algebra this year and had figured out by the end of chapter 2 that if you did the problem the right way, a calculator wasn't at all useful ;)

 

This will continue throughout AoPS Calculus. In many cases, using a calculator would completely defeat the purpose and miss the learning objective. There were only a handful of problems throuoght the years where the student was explicitly told "you may use a calculator on this problem".

[Tabrett]

My dd was required to by a $100 graphing calculator for Algebra 1 in 9th grade (public school). It had to be a specific name brand and model. That was 6 years ago. It was expensive, but she has used it all the way through her last math class in college, so it did get a lot of use (5 years of classes).

[Caroline]

So this leaves me wondering when I should have my son start learning how to use a calculator. I don't think he needs it now and I'm glad we don't rely on them. But I myself never used a calculator (I'm talking a fancy graphing one). I've seen the manuals for those things. I would think it does take some practice. Although my son picks up on gadget use far more quickly than I do so maybe I'm worried for nothing.

They aren't hard to learn how to use. You never use the users guide. You just google what you need when you need it. They are all pretty straight forward these days.

[theYoungerMrsWarde]

For the 2003-2004 school year I was required to have one for Algebra 2. The school had some that could be loaned for the year to students who could not afford it.

[bettyandbob]

For the 2003-2004 school year I was required to have one for Algebra 2. The school had some that could be loaned for the year to students who could not afford it.

 

OK this is frightening. I took Algebra 2  23 years before you. :ohmy:

[catz]

I think this is so weird. I have a math and comp sci degree which I got in the 90's and I never owned a graphing calculator. My kid that finished AoPS Intro to Alg (so Alg 1/many alg 2 topics) and is starting geometry sometimes uses a regular calculator, but not always. I really haven't worried about him *needing* to figure out how to use a fancier model. Do they allow their use on the SAT or ACT? I doubt it, right?