Good YA book about end times...and a question about seeing demons (CC)

[Marie in OR]

I just read a great kindle book called "Signaveria". It is set a couple of years after the rapture when everyone needs the mark of the beast to buy or sell. The main characters are teenagers, and tells how they handle life under a new, global government, led by the "antichrist".

 

Here's the question: in the book, each of the characters learn to use their new spiritual gifts. One of them looks at an ordinary couple and "sees" demons instead. The book says this is "distinguishing between spirits". Is this what this gift does? Has anyone ever "seen" demons" in a person?

 

Here's a link to the book:

http://www.amazon.com/Signaveria-ebook/dp/B00ESLW8NO/ref=sr_1_1?s=digital-text&ie=UTF8&qid=1378743043&sr=1-1

[Χά�ων]

I can honestly say I have never "seen" a demon. I will say that I have met people and wondered if they had some major mental illness because of their behavior. It is especially sad if the person is a child. I have also known people and after a few years become pretty certain they are a sociopath, but that was in sports parent world so take it for what you will.

[Tangerine]

Even when I was a Christian, this always struck me as people trying to use God to disparage someone or something they didn't like, and painting it as spiritual discernment.

[celticmom]

I would take any fictional description of how spiritual gifts work with a huge grain of salt. That would go double or triple for books about the rapture. The only case in which I would consider making an exception is the author was a real life expert on the subject  or there was some other significant real world reason to believe that they are knowledgeable.

[Mom-ninja.]

 Is this what this gift does? Has anyone ever "seen" demons" in a person?

 

I honestly don't understand your question. Would you like to try and explain your question? Then maybe I can answer. :)

[Marie in OR]

I'm referring to this:

 

1 Cor 12: 8 To one there is given through the Spirit a message of wisdom, to another a message of knowledgeby means of the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, 10 to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues,[a] and to still another the interpretation of tongues.

 

Would this gift manifest itself in the way described in the book (I know it's a fiction book! I know it's not the Bible! Just curious about this gift).

 

In the book, the girl saw a couple and seemed to see that they were possessed by demons. She said they looked like monsters. The other kids saw only people.

[Lara in Colo]

I actually know two people who see demons.  A close relative has seen them since a small child and turned away from the church when they offered only condemnation.  When she was smaller they would appear to her and talk to her--- when she was older they would cause issues in her life-- they would talk so loud she couldn't hear actual people or get any sleep.  

 

The other person I know that sees them actually is a leader in my previous church and counsels others about spiritual gifts. What see sees is more like a shadow covering a person and influencing their actions. 

[LMA]

From a Catholic perspective (with imprimatur), the book Angels and Devils by Joan Carroll Cruz may interest you.

[plansrme]

I know someone who believes he saw demons once. He does not talk about it (I believe I am the only person he has told) and has not had it happen again. There were no alcohol or drugs involved.

 

There is a fascinating book, the name of which I can't remember now, about a Catholic priest's training to become an exorcist. Believe or not, Carholic or not (I am not), it was an excellent, balanced read. It was written within the last 10 years, and the priest profiled was the consultant on a movie about demon possession. Of course the name will come to me when I log out...

[mommymilkies]

I actually know two people who see demons. A close relative has seen them since a small child and turned away from the church when they offered only condemnation. When she was smaller they would appear to her and talk to her--- when she was older they would cause issues in her life-- they would talk so loud she couldn't hear actual people or get any sleep.

 

The other person I know that sees them actually is a leader in my previous church and counsels others about spiritual gifts. What see sees is more like a shadow covering a person and influencing their actions.

That's called schizophrenia. It's a serious disorder. I hope they receive guidance and care.

[albeto.]

I actually know two people who see demons.  A close relative has seen them since a small child and turned away from the church when they offered only condemnation.  When she was smaller they would appear to her and talk to her--- when she was older they would cause issues in her life-- they would talk so loud she couldn't hear actual people or get any sleep.  

 

The other person I know that sees them actually is a leader in my previous church and counsels others about spiritual gifts. What see sees is more like a shadow covering a person and influencing their actions. 

 

Out of curiosity, how would one distinguish these from auditory and visual hallucinations explained by neurological reasons?

[mamajag]

Has anyone ever "seen" demons" in a person?

Yes, but only when I don't take my medication. I don't know if that counts or not.

[unsinkable]

Typical.

[unsinkable]

From a Catholic perspective (with imprimatur), the book Angels and Devils by Joan Carroll Cruz may interest you.

Thanks!

[unsinkable]

I know someone who believes he saw demons once. He does not talk about it (I believe I am the only person he has told) and has not had it happen again. There were no alcohol or drugs involved.

 

There is a fascinating book, the name of which I can't remember now, about a Catholic priest's training to become an exorcist. Believe or not, Carholic or not (I am not), it was an excellent, balanced read. It was written within the last 10 years, and the priest profiled was the consultant on a movie about demon possession. Of course the name will come to me when I log out...

Is it An Exorcist Tells His Story by Gabrielle Amorth?

[plansrme]

Is it An Exorcist Tells His Story by Gabrielle Amorth?

My daughter knew--it is The Rite.

[hillfarm]

I have never "seen" a demon, but I once had an experience where I met someone and had an incredibly strong feeling that they were...beyond horrible, the most evil I could ever imagine. It was an otherwise normally appearing person, a professional who was the director of a museum. I was a college student taking a tour of the museum and he came out of his office for a few minutes to speak with our group.

 

I had never seen him before and never saw him again. But it was like a bomb went off in my head and I felt an overpowering desire to get out of there immediately. I felt like I couldn't breathe and I noticed that I couldn't get a clear view of his face - it was as if his whole face was blurry to me.

 

I heeded my feelings and left immediately with a friend. The rest of the group joined us outside in a few minutes. I never heard anything else ever again, but never tried to research it either. I have never experienced anything similar in the 30+ years since.

 

I consider myself a pretty good judge of people and often make rather quick decisions about who is trustworthy. So far I have always been right about the situations where I don't trust people. Several of them have ended up in jail for various crimes. I don't shun those I don't get a good feeling about, but I don't allow myself or family to be unguarded around them either. I have wondered whether I might have a bit of the spiritual gift of discernment.

 

And no, I don't think schizophrenia is the same thing as spiritual discernment.

[NicAnn]

I think there are many many accounts of seeing demons. Ive thought a lot on this over the years and discussed it with dh. I think people don't *see* demons, but more experience them. Does that make sense?

 

I would be interested in any book links from a non denominational author, if it exists.

[mamajag]

And no, I don't think schizophrenia is the same thing as spiritual discernment.

It started back when I was a Christian, and part of why I left the faith was the steady advice not to seek mental health evaluation because what I was seeing was a "gift". I just have the one schizophrenic symptom (alongside treated bipolar), but it's scary enough that I take a pretty substantial dose of an antipsychotic to make it go away.

[mommymilkies]

Feeling people are evil, getting that sense that something is "off", I get that. But if you are hearing voices and seeing demons, that is mental illness, not spirtual discernment. I have a Catholic neighbor who had the same thing happen. Finally he told the priest. Guess what? He finally got psychiatric care. Even they recognize that hearing voices and seeing demons is a mental illness that needs psychiatric care.

[NicAnn]

I don't think so. I mean, sure yes of course there are mental disorders. But I think demons can, and do, present themselves in a variety of ways. I'm not sure I believe in demonic possession, per se, but demons messing around with people? Yep.

[unfrumpable.]

If I ever see a demon (doubtful), I would certainly not consider it a gift.

[Mergath]

That's called schizophrenia. It's a serious disorder. I hope they receive guidance and care.

 

:iagree:   The father of a little kid my dd used to have playdates with thought he was seeing and being attacked by demons.  His obituary was in the paper a couple months back.  Apparently, he took his own life.  He was only thirty-five.

 

Telling people that this kind of thing is a gift from God instead of encouraging them to seek psychiatric help is sick.  

[hillfarm]

If I ever see a demon (doubtful), I would certainly not consider it a gift.

 

It's a little hard to explain. The gift is not about being able to see/perceive bad spirits, the gift is being able to see both the good and the bad ones so that you know what you are dealing with.

 

I only had the one experience that scared the dickens out of me. I have had a few over the years that set off my "creep-o-meter" and several more situations where I just thought the person was kind of "oily", not to be trusted.

 

On the flip side, I have met several people who were rather scary to look at that deep down I just knew I could trust. They turned out to be great people and it has greatly enriched my life to know them. Even though many of them look like people you wouldn't want to meet in a dark alley. I just knew they were good, trustworthy individuals.

 

For those who aren't Christians, do you believe in spirits (good or evil)  or spiritual discernment at all? (Not being snarky here, just curious.) Are there any people who you believe have seen/perceived spirits outside of the religious realm? Please forgive my ignorance here, but I thought several ancient religions believed in the existence of spirits and demons. Do you feel that they are all wrong and it is actually mental illness?

[mommymilkies]

I do not believe in demons. I am fascinated by the study of such things and was probably the only Jewish kid in (at the very least) my state with a huge collection of saints and angels books. But if you are seeing and hearing things like described above, that is an obvious sign of mental illness. As for the rest, I consider them more to be a way of describing that which can not be explained. I'm agnostic or pantheistic or some word along those lines. The physical probability of demons, to me, is akin to the probability that there are real vampires.

[albeto.]

For those who aren't Christians, do you believe in spirits (good or evil)  or spiritual discernment at all? (Not being snarky here, just curious.) Are there any people who you believe have seen/perceived spirits outside of the religious realm? Please forgive my ignorance here, but I though several ancient religions believed in the existence of spirits and demons. Do you feel that they are all wrong and it is actually mental illness?44

 

The brain is a highly, mindbogglingly complex structure. We know about as much about it today as people knew about genetics in the 19th century. That is to say, we can see patterns and make plausible predictions, but we're only now putting it to the test, detail by detail. There's no more reason to attribute the brain responding to internal firings as demonic influences than there is reason to attribute the lightning storms to Zeus. The more we know, the smaller this "gap" of knowledge becomes. 

 

I'd be curious to know how someone comes to believe their understanding is most likely. For example, you believe demons can't be "seen" but can be discerned through some kind of emotional radar (for lack of better word). Why do some people believe that's the most likely understanding of spiritual influence, whereas others believe demons can be perceived by our external senses (sight, sound, etc). And why do some people believe the most likely understanding of spiritual influence is nothing more than a matter of inspiration? Does that make sense? If you (just picking on you for the sake of convenience, not to pick on you really), don't trust someone else to be accurate when they say demons can be seen and heard, and someone else doesn't trust you to be accurate when you say they can be "felt," what does that say about the credibility of these kinds of belief? 

[Mergath]

For those who aren't Christians, do you believe in spirits (good or evil)  or spiritual discernment at all? (Not being snarky here, just curious.) Are there any people who you believe have seen/perceived spirits outside of the religious realm? Please forgive my ignorance here, but I thought several ancient religions believed in the existence of spirits and demons. Do you feel that they are all wrong and it is actually mental illness?

 

I think there are probably things outside our ability to understand, either because science hasn't advanced far enough or our puny human brains aren't big enough.  Do I think a human being has the occasional encounter with something we aren't capable of understanding?  Sure, it's possible.  But there's a world of difference between that and thinking that ordinary people are secretly demons, or however it's supposed to work.

 

If you sit down and read most of the accounts of demon-like creatures from older cultures, it's pretty clear they're anthropomorphizing things they either didn't understand or couldn't control.  I really don't think most of them were ever meant to be taken literally.  And yes, some of those stories probably were the result of mental illness.  Schizophrenia isn't exactly new.

 

When a person claims to see demons on a regular basis, they need psychiatric treatment, not a pat on the back for being so darn gifted.

[LucyStoner]

No, I do not believe in ghosts, spirits, the paranormal, demons, poltergeists or anything of the sort. I think the value in them is allegorical and metaphorical. I have experienced a few "unexplainable" things but I believe it to be the brain working in ways I don't understand.

 

I think discernment is intuition, insight, wisdom and the occasional good guess.

 

I am leery of the beliefs that some people have about demons as explainations for mental and in some cases physical health problems. My mother had epilepsy that was caused by head trauma inflicted by physical abuse. That's a lot of abuse people. Her mother considered the epilepsy to be a sign of demon posession and had my mom subjected to a whole new set of horrors but with the help of religious "experts". Oddly, Tegretol and Dilantin seemed to help her more than anything else. The irony of a woman who so violently abused her children as to result in permanent damage like a seizure disorder using religion to try and heal her daughter is not lost on me. You understand why when people start talking about demons or exorcisms or whatnot, I back away slowly.

[Chris in VA]

Sorry, Katie.  :grouphug:

[NicAnn]

Typical.

Yep.

[Twinmom]

I'm pretty sure my husband has the gift of spiritual discernment and he has never literally seen a demon, in any form. He just "knows" when something isn't right, isn't Biblical, is working against God, etc. It is hard to explain, but he can almost always spot evil, a world view working against Christianity or a bad situation in its many forms from way out, whereas I can usually end up right in the middle of something before I recognize it. He has a level of discernment and wisdom in the spiritual realm that i appreciate deeply. He sort of see things coming from way out, if that makes sense. Both of us believe in the existence of demons and of evil but I know he would (and has...he has a mentally ill brother) consider it mental illness if someone were regularly seeing demons.

 

I think discernment is discernment and visions of demons is likely mental illness, if you know what I mean. HTH in some way!

[Lady Florida.]

For those who aren't Christians, do you believe in spirits (good or evil)  or spiritual discernment at all? (Not being snarky here, just curious.) Are there any people who you believe have seen/perceived spirits outside of the religious realm? Please forgive my ignorance here, but I thought several ancient religions believed in the existence of spirits and demons. Do you feel that they are all wrong and it is actually mental illness?

No, I do not believe in spirits of any kind, and I think LucyStoner already covered what I think discernment is, in the quote below. I don't think it's always mental illness, though it certainly can be. However, it could also be sleep paralysis, the power of suggestion (especially if one belongs to a church that encourages this kind of thing), or the person could just be a charlatan.

 

 

I think discernment is intuition, insight, wisdom and the occasional good guess.

[Trish]

Feeling people are evil, getting that sense that something is "off", I get that. But if you are hearing voices and seeing demons, that is mental illness, not spirtual discernment. I have a Catholic neighbor who had the same thing happen. Finally he told the priest. Guess what? He finally got psychiatric care. Even they recognize that hearing voices and seeing demons is a mental illness that needs psychiatric care.

 

Except, not everyone who sees a demon is mentally ill. 

 

Jesus. St. Teresa of Avila. Ezekiel.

 

But I think it's best to err on the side of psychiatry!

[Lady Florida.]

Except, not everyone who sees a demon is mentally ill. 

 

Jesus. St. Teresa of Avila. Ezekiel.

 

But I think it's best to err on the side of psychiatry!

 

Actually, historical Jesus probably never existed, the story of Ezekiel is just...bizarre, and St. Teresa of Avila is a perfect example of mental illness in a time when mental illness wasn't understood. 

[suzybluecheese]

Sort of on topic, this is a great Ted Talk: http://www.ted.com/talks/oliver_sacks_what_hallucination_reveals_about_our_minds.html

[BrookValley.]

Except, not everyone who sees a demon is mentally ill. 

 

Jesus. St. Teresa of Avila. Ezekiel.

 

But I think it's best to err on the side of psychiatry!

 

Except, how do we know they were not mentally ill? They didn't have the same medical or psychological understanding that we have today when those people were alive. As we all know, over the course of history we have come up with all sorts of interesting ways to explain what we didn't understand. Regardless, I agree--no matter what you believe, best to seek medical help!

 

My husband is very, very good at making snap decisions on a person's character. He's a staunch atheist. No spiritual gifts involved. He is simply a very good reader of human body language and demeanor. We make all kinds of jokes about his fancy "powers," but it's all very easily explained. He's always been a listener, not a talker; he always observes first, acts later. He's just good at making observations and reading them.

[DawnM]

I guess I view distinguishing the spirits differently.  I think it has more to do with understanding those things that we as Christians should stay away from, but doesn't necessarily mean demonic.  

 

My last day on vacation a friend who gets really in to end times and prophecy from "christian" perspectives (seriously, I question her judgement) said that the rapture will happen by the year 2020 and that Obamacare and the microchip he makes us all get will be the mark of the beast, etc......

 

I just don't buy into any hype.  I grew up with those dreadful films that scared the living daylights out of us (Thief in the Night combined with some Larry Norman's "I wish we'd all been ready.")

 

Books like this make me cringe.   

 

If we believe in Jesus and believe that he saves, then he saves, period.  We don't have to live in fear or worry.

 

Sorry to go off, just a touchy subject for me.

 

 

I just read a great kindle book called "Signaveria". It is set a couple of years after the rapture when everyone needs the mark of the beast to buy or sell. The main characters are teenagers, and tells how they handle life under a new, global government, led by the "antichrist".

 

Here's the question: in the book, each of the characters learn to use their new spiritual gifts. One of them looks at an ordinary couple and "sees" demons instead. The book says this is "distinguishing between spirits". Is this what this gift does? Has anyone ever "seen" demons" in a person?

 

Here's a link to the book:

http://www.amazon.com/Signaveria-ebook/dp/B00ESLW8NO/ref=sr_1_1?s=digital-text&ie=UTF8&qid=1378743043&sr=1-1

 

[Tangerine]

I think, that if upon hearing of someone seeing demons, most people think "mental illness" instead of "gift from God", then "typical" is right where I want to be.

[Lady Florida.]

Sort of on topic, this is a great Ted Talk: http://www.ted.com/talks/oliver_sacks_what_hallucination_reveals_about_our_minds.html

 

That was an interesting video. Thanks for sharing. I love TED talks, and learn so much from them!

[WishboneDawn]

Except, how do we know they were not mentally ill?

Well...To some degree this might be a framing issue. Certainly these people had issues but they found ways of being and living that worked for them and sort of cast some doubt as to whether we should be tagging them with the label, "ill". From our modern perspective, yes.

 

But from their perspective? That counts for something.

[goldberry]

I have a friend who is not a Christian. She does believe in God, but in a very personal, non-organizational way.   She is very - what I would call, empathetic.  She reads people and their feelings very well.  She considers this a natural ability, not supernatural. 

 

She had an experience where she saw someone she had never met before in a college cafeteria.  She looked at him and had an experience similar to the one above about the museum director.  The odd thing was, he looked back at her and she felt like he KNEW that she was seeing him.  He looked back at her for a minute, then got up and left the table, tray of food, everything, and walked out. She found out later he actually left the school, no explanation, and never returned.  Creepy. 

 

As I said, she is regularly empathetic and sensitive to knowing people's character.  She said that was the ONLY time she ever saw anything like that.  Again though, she considers this a natural ability and not supernatural.  She considers what she saw to be a manifestation of his true nature, his true human nature.

[Tiramisu]

Actually, historical Jesus probably never existed

 

To hold this view, you would have to ignore the non-Christian Jewish and Roman historical sources which attest to Jesus' life and death. You may choose to ignore them, but you can't say they don't exist.

[Jennifer3141]

To hold this view, you would have to ignore the non-Christian Jewish and Roman historical sources which attest to Jesus' life and death. You may choose to ignore them, but you can't say they don't exist.

 

I don't think Kathy is saying that, "something" didn't happen 2,000 years ago. Just like society was rocked by the Buddha and Allah and Meher Baba and Joseph Smith on and on and on.

 

What many intellectuals doubt is whether that prophet was the, "son of god" or if he was just a cool dude who cared about other humans.

 

The resurrected son is a nice story. That's probably why it's been told more than once in history, as I'm sure you know as a student of classical history. :)

[Tiramisu]

I don't think Kathy is saying that, "something" didn't happen 2,000 years ago. Just like society was rocked by the Buddha and Allah and Meher Baba and Joseph Smith on and on and on.

 

What many intellectuals doubt is whether that prophet was the, "son of god" or if he was just a cool dude who cared about other humans.

 

The resurrected son is a nice story. That's probably why it's been told more than once in history, as I'm sure you know as a student of classical history. :)

 

I interpreted what she said differently, because she specifically said, "historical Jesus probably never existed".

 

Of course, everyone has the right to their own decision about the spiritual aspects of his existence.

[Jennifer3141]

I interpreted what she said differently, because she specifically said, "historical Jesus probably never existed".

 

Of course, everyone has the right to their own decision about the spiritual aspects of his existence.

 

Correct. "Historical" in the sense that he didn't magically change water into wine or "historical" in the sense that he wasn't one single person but a movement or any number of theories I've read about the people who rocked history.

[Tiramisu]

Correct. "Historical" in the sense that he didn't magically change water into wine or "historical" in the sense that he wasn't one single person but a movement or any number of theories I've read about the people who rocked history.

 

I have to clarify. I definitely mean historical in the sense that there was such a person as Jesus according to non-Christian Jewish and secular Roman sources.

[Lady Florida.]

I interpreted what she said differently, because she specifically said, "historical Jesus probably never existed".

 

Of course, everyone has the right to their own decision about the spiritual aspects of his existence.

 

You didn't misinterpret. There is actually no historical evidence for Jesus. All "evidence" comes only from Christian writers and only many years after his supposed death.

[Garga]

My mother has seen demons on two separate occasions. You may or may not believe it but she doesn't have any mental disorders. They were two separate events years apart and nothing dramatic occurred. In every other way she is completely normal without mental issues.

 

I personally know two other people who have also seen demons. They, too, have no mental illnesses. These were not reoccurring events and the demon were not talking to them and telling them what to do, as you would expect with a mental illness.

 

So, OP, to answer your question, I do believe demon possession is real, I believe demons themselves are real and there are a few people out there who can see it for whatever reasons. I don't care to speculate why some people can see them. Of course, my answer to your question is pretty meaningless because who am I after all? Some stranger on a forum. But for me, the people who told me about their experiences are trustworthy with no signs of mental illnesses.

[Mergath]

My mother has seen demons on two separate occasions. You may or may not believe it but she doesn't have any mental disorders. They were two separate events years apart and nothing dramatic occurred. In every other way she is completely normal without mental issues.

 

I personally know two other people who have also seen demons. They, too, have no mental illnesses. These were not reoccurring events and the demon were not talking to them and telling them what to do, as you would expect with a mental illness.

 

So, OP, to answer your question, I do believe demon possession is real, I believe demons themselves are real and there are a few people out there who can see it for whatever reasons. I don't care to speculate why some people can see them. Of course, my answer to your question is pretty meaningless because who am I after all? Some stranger on a forum. But for me, the people who told me about their experiences are trustworthy with no signs of mental illnesses.

 

Just out of curiosity, how did they know they were demons, as opposed to something with a more "scientific" explanation such as aliens or some kind of temporary hallucination?  

[mommaduck]

I see we've reached the yearly Smack Down Christianity thread....