God, trust, and all that stuff (obviously CC)

[MSNative]

:grouphug: I am so sorry. Words don't help after tragedies, especially the death of your child. I wish I could sit with you and let you yell, cry, whatever and have you know that it's ok to feel all that you are feeling. No one is unchanged after losing a child. Of course you will question your faith and everything else that is good in the world. It's not wrong to question, cry out, be angry, desperately want to know why, etc. I'm sure you have lovely friends and family and I hope they are able to help you through this. I hope you can find some comfort and healing. Once you are in a better place emotionally (and you will get there even though it doesn't feel like it now) you can figure out your faith.

 

:grouphug:

[Melissa in Australia]

I have no advice or words of wisdom, only hugs :grouphug: :grouphug: :grouphug: :grouphug: :grouphug:

[Granny_Weatherwax]

The funny thing is, there are things about God I do believe in (Creation, Crucifixion/Resurrection). I believe the big things, but I don't view God as a loving father.

:grouphug:

 

I am not wise or firm in my faith so I have no words of condolence or insight for you and for that I must apologize. I share many of your feelings, though, especially the above quote.

 

I believe He exists but He is neither kind, loving nor just.

[LostSurprise]

I sympathize with you. I also have issues of doubt and frustration, although they stem from different areas than yours. I'm sorry we have to walk this walk, and I wish I understood better why it was necessary.

 

 

Being honest, I must admit I've never understood this line of questioning. I've never seen God as a puppetmaster and nepotist controlling the world and making the outcome better for those who have just enough relationship with him to ask him for things. And that's what we do mostly. That's what we want. We don't really want to know God, we want a sugar daddy who will make things better when they go badly, who makes people follow the rules, and who we can pleasantly ignore otherwise. For the majority of Christians this is the case. Sure, we feel something: love we call it but perhaps stability, justice, karma, rule of law, peace are more accurate.

 

In my philosophy, the world is an experiment in Free Will. Every single being on this planet crashes, bangs, and rubs against each other, each trying to get what they need or have their own way. Each limited to their own viewpoint and survival. How do I expect God to resolve that? Do I expect someone else to die because I can't handle my own loved one dying? Can God even see death and time as we do? To a being who does not see death as the end, is it a bad thing? Do I expect the world to be fixed just for me or for everyone? What is the cascading effect of that? Do I think that the world can be fixed so everyone gets exactly what they want and need and yet we all can still do whatever we want?

 

I think the issue is much deeper than most hurting people can see. We are Chaos. Independence, individuality are beautiful things, but they mean chaos is the rule. And then we cry, scream, rage against what this self will and chaos bring us.

 

Lest you think I'm some smug Christian sitting somewhere who's never had tragedy touch them, I'll just tell you my youngest son has a progressive seizure disorder which will (probably) eventually rob him of his ability to walk, talk, even eat. I've had to lose my son by degrees. My doubts about God have come from other directions, but I understand your need to doubt right now. My only advice is to give it time. Never sever a relationship completely during a time of great pain. Stand back. Walk away. Wait for another day. Yell. Cry. Let the human beings around you love you. Later you will have the clarity of mind to do the thing that is best for you.

 

I wish you well, the best there is, and I wish you strength to get through this.

[jms]

Read the book of Job. All the way through. Seriously, this is where you are, this is where he was. Nothing anyone can say to you right now will truly provide any relief, just try to remember that most people mean well.

[JVA]

I'm so very sorry for your loss. My miscarriage was an emotional upheaval for me that took me months and months to recover from. There had been other losses in my life but this one was the one that got me to really assess what I believed....it shook me to my core. Eventually, I was reminded of some important facts: God is sovereign (He knew what had happened to me) God loved me (He grieved over the loss of our child as well) God is omnipotent (He would walk thru the pain and carry me to the other side). The process made me look at His character and purpose. It helped me understand the difference between authority and agency. I've been able to work through other difficulties in life because of that dark time...I was now equipped to focus on the big picture and to trust that He is using everything that occurs in my life for my sanctification- if I let Him. I need to remember that my life is still in the middle of the whole story....the great ending is still a ways off in the distance.

 

Perhaps this article can lend some light to your struggle.

http://www.challies.com/articles/god-does-not-owe-us-a-happy-ending

 

May you find comfort in His presence for He knows your every need.

[albeto]

Read the book of Job. All the way through. Seriously, this is where you are, this is where he was. Nothing anyone can say to you right now will truly provide any relief, just try to remember that most people mean well.

 

 

One might also try reading the book of Job from his first wife's point of view.

[BakersDozen]

Read the book of Job.

I read it once. If there is anything that would make me an atheist, the book of Job would be it. It is a pissing contest between two male figures and children - innocent children - are the victims. What kind of God would allow so many children to perish just so a contest can be won or a point made? I hate that book. I detest that book. I think it is the most horrible thing I've ever read (even worse than The Great Gatsby). And the fact that Job is given more children in the end is supposed to make it all better somehow? The only thing I get from Job that I can say, "Yep" to is what Job's wife said: "Curse God and die."

 

What a horrible, horrible, horrible God to do/allow something like that. Nothing more than a pissing contest of which God was a part.

 

Sorry...I am so bitter today I shouldn't be on here. Maybe I'll try again tomorrow...

[Heather in Neverland]

A good friend of mine died at age 29 from melanoma, just 5 weeks after giving birth to her first child. I prayed and prayed and begged God to spare her. But He didn't. I don't even pretend to know why.

 

The first man I ever loved suddenly and unexpectedly committed suicide. It crushed me to my very core and 20 years later not a day goes by that I don't think about it. I have no idea why God let the love of my life put a gun to his own head.

 

But I guess I have always felt that God doesn't really "owe" me an explanation. Anything I have that is good in my life is a gift from Him but I certainly don't deserve any of it and I am not entitled to anything, really. We want Him to "earn" our worship by doing what we want. But this is His earth. I am His creation.

 

The Lord gives and The Lord takes away. Blessed be the name of The Lord.

 

Does it mean I don't feel the pain of these losses? By no means. I am scarred for life by these tragedies. Truly. I will give you no Christian platitudes. I will not tell you it is because your faith wasn't strong enough. It sounds terribly cliche to say God has a plan but I believe He does even if I don't understand it. What is the alternative? That all of the suffering in life is just... random and senseless? How is that more comforting?

 

I am praying for you and your aching heart. (((Hugs)))

 

The most powerful and succinct explanation I have ever heard on the issue of theodicy.

 

 

 

 

[Erin]

I love Voddie Bachum. Just saw him in person a month ago at a conference. Phenomenal speaker and very convicting...

 

 

I tend to agree that Job is the last thing I want to read when I'm struggling with something. However,

What kind of God would allow so many children to perish

this is the question of someone who is bound to this earth and its rules. And when we're hurting and angry, this is true for most of us.

 

But remember, God sees things in terms of eternity...

This life is just the very tip of a string that circles around the room, out the door, around the trees, back in the door, and still has an unending amount on the spool.

[albeto]

It sounds terribly cliche to say God has a plan but I believe He does even if I don't understand it. What is the alternative? That all of the suffering in life is just... random and senseless? How is that more comforting?

 

 

Why does life without subscribing to a particular religious belief make it "random and senseless"? The firefighters who gave their lives trying to spare their communities from loss of life and home lived lives of noble intent, and died for noble reasons. To imply that without the existence of the deity that coincidentally happens to be the one familiar to you and your culture, their lives were random and senseless, is mind boggling to me. Well, that's putting it mildly.

[Heather in Neverland]

 

 

Why does life without subscribing to a particular religious belief make it "random and senseless"? The firefighters who gave their lives trying to spare their communities from loss of life and home lived lives of noble intent, and died for noble reasons. To imply that without the existence of the deity that coincidentally happens to be the one familiar to you and your culture, their lives were random and senseless, is mind boggling to me. Well, that's putting it mildly.

 

 

I understand that not everyone will agree with me. I am OK with that.

[Laurie4b]

I am so sorry for the loss of your child. :grouphug: The loss of all those brave men from your community must make it so much worse. Death all round. :grouphug: I hate the separation and tearing of relationships that death brings.

[SunnyDays]

Many :grouphug: to you. Just know that you are not alone in struggling with many of these questions. I've heard tragedy explained in many ways from a theological point of view, and somehow all the explanations ring hollow. I'm so sorry for your loss and for what your community is going through. :grouphug:

 

[albeto]

I understand that not everyone will agree with me. I am OK with that.

 

 

I'm not expecting you to convert me, I'm wondering what would make life outside the parameters of religious interpretation random and senseless?

[Heather in Neverland]

 

 

I'm not expecting you to convert me, I'm wondering what would make life outside the parameters of religious interpretation random and senseless?

 

We have different world views... Different starting points for this conversation. You are not interested in being converted. I have no interest in trying to change your beliefs. We will just have to respectfully agree to disagree.

[TracyP]

What is the alternative? That all of the suffering in life is just... random and senseless? How is that more comforting?

 

 

I am NOT picking on you or arguing, just answering your question. :)

 

I have a niece who was born 3 years ago. She had problem after problem when she was born. By the time she was 6 mos, she had spent close to half her life in the hospital. She was close to death time after time and needed to have a heart surgery and a pace maker. I prayed for her and her parents CONSTANTLY. I completely believed that God was in control up to this point.

 

But that wasn't enough. The doctors realized that she was going to need a new heart. I don't have to tell you what had to happen to the baby of someone else for my niece to get a new heart, right? So many people in our family were praying for a heart, but her parents (my bro and sil) and myself could not bring ourselves to do so. It was at this point that I started to believe that God didn't have a darn thing to do with this situation. It is not because I was mad at God. It is because seeing this situation as outside God's control was more comforting. If the death of one child to save the life of another is random and senseless, then it is just that - random and senseless. It means that life and death happen and my niece got lucky this time. (It is worth noting that her journey is not near over - she will need another heart at some point.) If God was orchestrating all this, then what does it mean? Is it comforting to think that God brings some babies into the world just to take them away? No. I find any explanation of "God's purpose" in this situation inadequate.

 

Between this situation and watching a close friend struggle to understand why God allowed her to be repeatedly raped during her childhood, I find 'random and senseless' gives far more comfort. I realize you will see it differently. I'm just offering up another perspective.

[albeto]

We have different world views... Different starting points for this conversation.

 

I don't know why that would prevent you from answering my question.

 

You are not interested in being converted. I have no interest in trying to change your beliefs. We will just have to respectfully agree to disagree.

 

By "respectfully," do you mean "let it go"? You claimed that without your religious interpretation, life is random and senseless. By making this claim, you're essentially trying to speak for me. You're implying that for me, the loss of 19 lives is random and senseless. That's not only inaccurate, that's rude.

 

You're suggesting to the OP that if she finds arguments for the existence of God to lack reason, if she rejects the claims of your religious faith, she will be rejecting any reason and sense in life. I can't see this as anything but emotional manipulation placed on someone in a particularly emotionally vulnerable state. I think that's totally uncool. I think I can understand why you don't want to answer (you don't want to defend it, ultimately), but if I'm wrong I'd like to offer you the chance to clarify.

 

In any case, I will not respect this point of view because I find it very disrespectful, but I will disagree respectfully, as long as respectfully means I get equal opportunity to defend myself against libelous comments.

[Clear Creek]

:grouphug: I have had a miscarriage, and it shook me to my very core. I could not pray for months without screaming at God in my head, and I literally was unable to open my Bible. I would sit in church and stare at the wall behind my husband's head as he preached, not even pretending to listen or follow along in my Bible. So I understand this pain. Do you want to know what brought me out of that haze of anger? Someone asked me why I was such a Special Sue that my baby would be the only one on the entire earth that wouldn't die. Why I was so special that any of my kids would never die. Because, ya know, everyone throughout history has died. God hasn't kept a single person alive to go on living on this earth forever and ever. I thought it was a bit harsh at the time, but it quickly made me realize that God isn't roaming about the earth striking down people's loved ones without care; my baby's death was not caused by God for some "greater good," nor was it some special event that God "allowed." It was the natural ending of life, period. Earlier than I would have liked, but nothing more or less that that. Everything and everyone dies, and there is nothing unique about me that will escape death's presence in my life. Now, that begs the question as to what kind of God would create the laws of nature that require everyone to die, but if we think back to the Garden of Eden, that was a gift of mercy. Adam and Eve were meant to live forever in communion with God, but they shot themselves in the foot by turning away from Him and doing their own thing. God, in His great mercy, made sure that they wouldn't have to live forever in that state and created a way to have perfect communion with Him again. It just begins after the natural consquences of this life (in other words, death).

[Mrs Mungo]

I do not have a view of God that includes Him preventing anything bad ever happening to His believers. Do I wish that He had healed my sister and allowed her to see her daughter grow up, marry, guide her through life? Absolutely. But, I don't think we escape all of the consequences that our human bodies bring just by virtue of belief. If you only believe in good times, that is not much faith.

[jms]

I read it once. If there is anything that would make me an atheist, the book of Job would be it. It is a pissing contest between two male figures and children - innocent children - are the victims. What kind of God would allow so many children to perish just so a contest can be won or a point made? I hate that book. I detest that book. I think it is the most horrible thing I've ever read (even worse than The Great Gatsby). And the fact that Job is given more children in the end is supposed to make it all better somehow? The only thing I get from Job that I can say, "Yep" to is what Job's wife said: "Curse God and die."

 

What a horrible, horrible, horrible God to do/allow something like that. Nothing more than a pissing contest of which God was a part.

 

Sorry...I am so bitter today I shouldn't be on here. Maybe I'll try again tomorrow...

 

 

No need to apologize. I see what you are saying, although I don't read it that way. Sometimes it just comes down to whether we trust that God is good, even when we don't get it all and think He owes us an explanation. This is what Job did. He trusted in God's character, even when nothing made sense. You're doubting God's character today. I think everyone does at some point, because at some point we all have stuff happen we don't get. Some things are just a matter of faith that only you and God can settle. I'm sorry you're in so much pain right now. :grouphug:

[milovany]

I don't know why that would prevent you from answering my question.

 

 

You're quite the pushy evangelist. ;)

[albeto]

 

You're quite the pushy evangelist. ;)

 

 

Asking questions isn't evangelizing. ;)

[milovany]

Asking questions isn't evangelizing. ;)

 

 

You've just been on some different threads recently, trying to convince people why your world view is the best one (seemingly so that people will "convert" away from their insensible religion). Or at least that's how it's coming across to me. Helps me remember to not be so pushy/obvious/bold with my faith, but to pray and trust and let God be God. Lord have mercy on me.

[SunnyDays]

I realize that the worldview exchange is pertinent to the topic at hand... However, I'd hate to see the thread taken too far off track. I think we all need to be able to state our own beliefs toward the end of helping OP work through hers.

[Incognito]

I don't know why that would prevent you from answering my question.

 

 

 

By "respectfully," do you mean "let it go"? You claimed that without your religious interpretation, life is random and senseless. By making this claim, you're essentially trying to speak for me. You're implying that for me, the loss of 19 lives is random and senseless. That's not only inaccurate, that's rude.

 

You're suggesting to the OP that if she finds arguments for the existence of God to lack reason, if she rejects the claims of your religious faith, she will be rejecting any reason and sense in life. I can't see this as anything but emotional manipulation placed on someone in a particularly emotionally vulnerable state. I think that's totally uncool. I think I can understand why you don't want to answer (you don't want to defend it, ultimately), but if I'm wrong I'd like to offer you the chance to clarify.

 

In any case, I will not respect this point of view because I find it very disrespectful, but I will disagree respectfully, as long as respectfully means I get equal opportunity to defend myself against libelous comments.

 

If I may interject, the point I believe that Heather in Neverland was making was that in her beliefs, meaning and purpose are found in God. So without God, things do not have meaning and purpose. She isn't trying to tell you your life is meaningless and purposeless, she is saying that her perpsective is that all things find their meaning and purpose in the orchestration of events by God, and that those who don't believe do not recognize that layer of meaning/purpose, but she isn't saying the purpose disappears when you don't believe.

 

I'm guessing the OP has been around Christianity enough to be familiar with that paradigm, and it even seemed to me that the OP was finding comfort for her own mind in the idea that perhaps God doesn't have meaning and purpose in all things, because they believe that things can be horrible and God shouldn't be going around assigning meaning and purpose to horrible things.

[unsinkable]

 

 

Asking questions isn't evangelizing. ;)

 

 

You've just been on some different threads recently, trying to convince people why your world view is the best one (seemingly so that people will "convert" away from their insensible religion). Or at least that's how it's coming across to me. Helps me remember to not be so pushy/obvious/bold with my faith, but to pray and trust and let God be God. Lord have mercy on me.

 

I agree that albeto seems to mostly participate in the religious threads...and I am curious what besides religion brings you to the WTM boards?

 

Are you educating yourself or children? Homeschooling? Afterschooling? Doing research for the future?

 

I've just never noticed what other types of threads you're interested in, Albeto.

[KrissiK]

I'm sorry you are struggling with this. I am a strong, Bible believing Reformed Christian and I struggle with this, often. However, in my mind, I have two options.... I either believe the totality of Scripture to be true, whether I can fully understand it or not, or... I don't. And if I don't then what? Just pick it apart and believe the parts I want to? I don't think so. Choose another religion? No. Ann VosKamp's book "1000 Gifts" speaks to questions like those and she writes with the experience of one who has dealt with major tragedy. I'm not a huge fan of her writing style, but the content of her book spoke to me.

 

My advice.... pray. Ask God to open your eyes to His grace and mercy. God doesn't have to prove Himself, but sometimes we are blind to who He really is and we shouldn't be asking for proof, but for sight.

[Pamela H in Texas]

Your OP had me in tears. Your pain is very evident. I so wish you peace (realizing it may take a little time).

 

Some insight to what the scriptures say (click here)

[Mrs Mungo]

It sounds terribly cliche to say God has a plan but I believe He does even if I don't understand it. What is the alternative? That all of the suffering in life is just... random and senseless? How is that more comforting?

 

To me, that isn't the alternative. I think suffering is part of life. I think suffering is the consequence of human bodies, human frailty and nature that does not always conform to the will of humans. We're not living in a perfect world. That means that bad things happen. Bad things happen to both good and bad people. Bad things happen to believers and non-believers. Likewise, good things happen to each group alike. Do I think God has a plan in the sense that His hand controls everything? No, I don't. But, neither do I think suffering is random or senseless. I think God can make good things come from suffering. I think we can show our care and compassion toward people who are suffering and those people will comfort us in our time of need.

 

Does that make sense?

[Chelle in MO]

OP, I am so sorry for the pain you are in. There aren't any words that will take away that pain.

 

When I read chapters 38 and 39 in Job, I see that I exist in God's world--He doesn't exist in mine. There are many, many things I don't like and don't understand about this world, but I don't have to like and/or understand them. I just believe on Jesus Christ and keep my eyes on Him. And I don't mean that to sound trite or simple.

 

I'm really very sorry for what you are experiencing. It is extremely difficult to endure at times like this. :grouphug:

[Guest]

Just wanted to say, I get it. Those have been my same thoughts. Exactly.

[Guest]

P.S. I don't find the book of Job comforting, either. But I think Abraham "obeying God" to sacrifice Isaac is worse. Or the baby that was David and Bathsheba's child of adultery.

[saraha]

OP- I so struggle with these same thoughts. Do we have to have a "relationship" with God? Is it enough to believe in him and what Jesus did to get to heaven? If it is enough to believe in who he is, then to me, that makes sense. I don't have to try to understand who he is or believe that I mean anything to him, just believe that he is the creator and that Jesus died and rose again. I won't be disappointed in him when things hurt or tragedy strikes and will know that I will get to heaven. "I'll Fly Away" is a much more comforting song for me than a lot of the stuff that is sung now, because it seems to acknowledge what I feel. No promises, no disappointments. ETA my return key is not working here, so all my thoughts are running together

[sunflowerlady]

I'm sorry. I understand.

[nmoira]

In my philosophy, the world is an experiment in Free Will. Every single being on this planet crashes, bangs, and rubs against each other, each trying to get what they need or have their own way. Each limited to their own viewpoint and survival.

 

I don't have a problem with this idea of gods. Well, unless you're expected to believe and perhaps other hoops to attain salvation as opposed to eternal damnation or punishment or whatever. That takes away a bit of the free will component, no? It throws a bit of a wrench in the works, knowing the rules ahead of time: "Pssst you don't do x, y, and z, then, "Ha, ha!"" But then if you have a god that set up the universe and lets it run, what is the essential difference from our point of view between that and a universe without gods? I guess I don't see the point of a god that isn't a personal god. But then again...

 

What I do have a big problem with is praying to a Santa-like god, asking for favours. Perhaps patience, perhaps a cure of some sort, perhaps respite. Praying for a dying child to pull through; I think it's barbaric to suggest that praying the right way to the right god will make a bit of difference as to the fate of the child, because that implies that somehow those prayers or those supplicants or that child weren't worthy of mercy. If one believes the child is rewarded in some sort of glowy afterlife, well, great. But the suffering of children on earth is something for which I would never forgive a god that could intercede and doesn't. I'm admittedly biased as an atheist, and also because my father rejected his God for similar reasons. The last straw for him came when, decades later, revelations surfaced of sexual abuse at a Yukon Indian residential school at which he'd worked in the 50's. It gutted him.

[Mommy22alyns]

OP, wow. You have so eloquently described my exact feelings. I've thought about a similar post myself. Flatly put, it's hard for me to be a Christian. I really relate to the end of your post where you speak of not bothering to pray. When I was hospitalized with my big bleed while pregnant with Sylvia, neither DH nor I prayed about it. What if we had? What if we'd lost her? It was so very close. I teach my daughters with Christian materials. I send them to VBS. We read the Bible. But I don't feel it, it's not in my heart. Why am I teaching them? It seems like so many people DO derive comfort and hope from their beliefs and I guess a part of me wants that (naive?) certainty for them. I'm going to go back and read the thread, but thank you for being brave enough to voice what a lot of us must feel. And I'm sorry for your loss. :grouphug:

[Heather in Neverland]

 

 

If I may interject, the point I believe that Heather in Neverland was making was that in her beliefs, meaning and purpose are found in God. So without God, things do not have meaning and purpose. She isn't trying to tell you your life is meaningless and purposeless, she is saying that her perpsective is that all things find their meaning and purpose in the orchestration of events by God, and that those who don't believe do not recognize that layer of meaning/purpose, but she isn't saying the purpose disappears when you don't believe.

 

I'm guessing the OP has been around Christianity enough to be familiar with that paradigm, and it even seemed to me that the OP was finding comfort for her own mind in the idea that perhaps God doesn't have meaning and purpose in all things, because they believe that things can be horrible and God shouldn't be going around assigning meaning and purpose to horrible things.

 

 

Well I just woke up on this of the world and was trying to think of the exact words to explain my position to Albeto (who seems very offended that I would have an opinion that does not match hers) and then I read this.

 

I really can't do any better. You explained it perfectly. Thank you.

 

I appreciate all the attempts to answer my question from my first post from other points of view. It has given me insight into other ways of looking at the situation and I appreciate that.

 

Albeto, I did not write my post to intentionally upset you. I expressed my beliefs. You have your own. I respect your beliefs and your right to your beliefs even if I do not agree with them.

 

Of course you don't have to "let it go." You have the right to continue posting about this if you wish. However, I will not be baited into defending my beliefs because I don't have to. I am at peace with them whether you are or not.

 

I'm sorry my post made you so angry.

 

 

 

 

[albeto]

Well I just woke up on this of the world and was trying to think of the exact words to explain my position to Albeto (who seems very offended that I would have an opinion that does not match hers) and then I read this.

 

I really can't do any better. You explained it perfectly. Thank you.

 

I appreciate all the attempts to answer my question from my first post from other points of view. It has given me insight into other ways of looking at the situation and I appreciate that.

 

Albeto, I did not write my post to intentionally upset you. I expressed my beliefs. You have your own. I respect your beliefs and your right to your beliefs even if I do not agree with them.

 

Of course you don't have to "let it go." You have the right to continue posting about this if you wish. However, I will not be baited into defending my beliefs because I don't have to. I am at peace with them whether you are or not.

 

I'm sorry my post made you so angry.

 

Not angry at all. I didn't expect you intended to say anything negative. I tried to explain my confusion, not any anger (because I don't feel that), but I'm grateful to have an answer to my question.

 

 

If I may interject, the point I believe that Heather in Neverland was making was that in her beliefs, meaning and purpose are found in God. So without God, things do not have meaning and purpose. She isn't trying to tell you your life is meaningless and purposeless, she is saying that her perpsective is that all things find their meaning and purpose in the orchestration of events by God, and that those who don't believe do not recognize that layer of meaning/purpose, but she isn't saying the purpose disappears when you don't believe.

 

I'm guessing the OP has been around Christianity enough to be familiar with that paradigm, and it even seemed to me that the OP was finding comfort for her own mind in the idea that perhaps God doesn't have meaning and purpose in all things, because they believe that things can be horrible and God shouldn't be going around assigning meaning and purpose to horrible things.

 

Thank you for the translation.

 

:)

[Guest]

What is the alternative? That all of the suffering in life is just... random and senseless? How is that more comforting?

 

Though I'm not the OP, I will say that I do find it more comforting to think the suffering of this world is random and senseless than to think that God could have prevented tragedy but didn't. My mother loves to collect stories about miraculous healings, but you know what I feel when I hear them? Resentment. If God can (and does) miraculously repair a baby who was dx'd in utero as missing half a brain, why couldn't He patch up my placenta for one more hour so my baby would not have died? It's psychologically easier to think God does no such favors for anyone and that my baby died because she just did. Because sometimes, babies die. Much simpler than thinking He sometimes intervenes and other times, turns his back.

[albeto]

Though I'm not the OP, I will say that I do find it more comforting to think the suffering of this world is random and senseless than to think that God could have prevented tragedy but didn't.

 

A number of people are comforted by this idea of random, senselessness. I guess I wouldn't have thought to interpret it that way. Take for example the firefighters. Nothing is "random" in that each event is the logical effect of causes that happen before. Those firefighters ran out, at risk to their own lives, in hopes of sparing their community the loss of lives and homes due to a fire that started unexpectedly (but understandably). Their deaths were not random, they were accidental. In my opinion, the purpose they sought in fighting the flames wasn't senseless but noble. They put their lives on the line for something that's "bigger" than any individual - the love and security of their community as a whole. I can't find senselessness in that, but only profound sense, the most noble sense.

 

As far as loosing pregnancies, that's not "random" either. It can be overwhelmingly depressing for some, a life-changer for others, and still others can meet this unexpected loss with resilience. I don't think any of this has to be senseless in that we can interpret it whatever way we think fits best. Pregnancy is, for many, putting one's hope in the future, creating a tangible object for empathetic tendencies, experiencing the wonders of life threw the eyes of one experiencing it for the first time. I think there's nothing that makes more sense in the world than to do something for the experience. I think there's no experience more noble than to sacrifice for someone else, and let's face it, that's what motherhood is. Although it offers emotional rewards to the giver, it the practical rewards the receiver gets is what makes it special. Giving and receiving. It's human nature at its core. It's beautiful and inspiring. It can be awful to loose, but only because it was so valuable to begin with.

[Mrs Mungo]

And to the OP, there are some really good books, articles and blogs out there written by people whose livelihood consists of thinking deeply upon these matters. The blog of Peter Enns is a good place to start. He has a lot of book recommendations sprinkled throughout.

[tabinfl]

I am so sorry for your loss. I understand your questions, though I don't have any answers.

 

I walked away from my faith after a losing a close friend just before high school graduation (without any closure -- a brain injury left my friend comatose for months. I sat by his hospital bed nearly every day, but when he awoke he was a different person, an angry, violent person who didn't even know me). I had been active in my church, a "good Christian", and I was confused, bitter, and furious at having been duped into believing that God was good.

 

I found that faith again -- maybe a slightly different version -- years later, at the lowest point in my life thus far. It came slowly, in bits and pieces, through prayers that were little more than "Help!" and days when I was grateful just to see the sun rise once again. Since that time, it has become a great source of strength and comfort for me through other difficulties in my life. I find that comfort through prayer and reliance on God's grace -- trusting that even if my world crumbles around me, I can pick up the pieces and move on, that I will be OK even if my circumstances are not, and seeing that be true for others around me, even those dealing with things I can't even imagine.

 

I hope you can find comfort and peace, somehow, in the midst of your grief. If that means walking away for a while, well, that's your path. The God I know will be waiting with open arms if/when you come back.

[Mergath]

Why does life without subscribing to a particular religious belief make it "random and senseless"? The firefighters who gave their lives trying to spare their communities from loss of life and home lived lives of noble intent, and died for noble reasons. To imply that without the existence of the deity that coincidentally happens to be the one familiar to you and your culture, their lives were random and senseless, is mind boggling to me. Well, that's putting it mildly.

 

 

I agree with this. To me, life inside a Christian worldview seems far more senseless. You're tossed about at the whim of God, who is so far above us that we can't possibly understand why in the world he does all this stuff to us (though people have endless platitudes about it that generally bring absolutely no comfort) but it doesn't matter anyway because we're all just passing through this life. Like we're not supposed to get too attached to our families or our children because they're on their way out to someplace better anyway? *snort* I'm sorry, but I don't find that overly comforting.

 

For those of us who don't believe in that kind of a God, however, we understand that tragedy and death are part of life. There's no purpose in it. There's no grand design. It just happens, and it sucks. But that makes life all the more precious, because we don't think it's a pitstop on the way to heaven or whatever. This, right now, is what's important, and the losses make us cling more tightly to the beautiful things we still have, and appreciate them all the more.

 

ETA: And I'm not trying to derail the thread, but I want the OP to know that it's okay to feel like this.

[BakersDozen]

OP, wow. You have so eloquently described my exact feelings. I've thought about a similar post myself. Flatly put, it's hard for me to be a Christian. I really relate to the end of your post where you speak of not bothering to pray. When I was hospitalized with my big bleed while pregnant with Sylvia, neither DH nor I prayed about it. What if we had? What if we'd lost her? It was so very close. I teach my daughters with Christian materials. I send them to VBS. We read the Bible. But I don't feel it, it's not in my heart. Why am I teaching them? It seems like so many people DO derive comfort and hope from their beliefs and I guess a part of me wants that (naive?) certainty for them.

I have wondered for years why I take my kids to Awana, Bible Quiz, etc. Why I read to them from the Bible and all that when I don't feel anything inside. I don't know...I just don't. I can't talk to them about this local tragedy because I fear overwhelming them with my own emotional thoughts.

 

I will say that I do find it more comforting to think the suffering of this world is random and senseless than to think that God could have prevented tragedy but didn't.

My sanity at this point has to believe this. I cannot allow any thought that God was at all involved in the fire or any other tragedy because I feel I would lose my mind.

 

I don't find the book of Job comforting, either. But I think Abraham "obeying God" to sacrifice Isaac is worse. Or the baby that was David and Bathsheba's child of adultery.

Bathsheba's grief was overlooked whereas David's - the scumbucket jerk - was highlighted. All Bathsheba got was a dead baby and a husband who then wanted teA with her afterward. Yeah, that story really frosts me.

 

but thank you for being brave enough to voice what a lot of us must feel.

I wasn't brave, I was trusting. I trust the ladies here who, even though they may disagree with me, will respond with wisdom and gentleness. Nowhere else and with no one else can I be so open.

 

Do we have to have a "relationship" with God? Is it enough to believe in him and what Jesus did to get to heaven? If it is enough to believe in who he is, then to me, that makes sense. I don't have to try to understand who he is or believe that I mean anything to him, just believe that he is the creator and that Jesus died and rose again. I won't be disappointed in him when things hurt or tragedy strikes and will know that I will get to heaven. "I'll Fly Away" is a much more comforting song for me than a lot of the stuff that is sung now, because it seems to acknowledge what I feel. No promises, no disappointments.

This exactly.

 

It's been another hard day. Everywhere there are 19 flags flying, opening ceremonies for the rodeo were today and a horse was led around empty-saddled save for a hat and boots in the stirrups. There is such a sense of grief and confusion. Tomorrow there is a huge gathering for the community but I can't go. I am not ready to hear the words of comfort that might be offered. This is too confusing. The worst thing is I really want to talk to God about this but I am so afraid of him now. I'm so afraid of him. :(

 

I'm sorry I can't respond to every single post (still working through the PMs) but again and with all my heart I thank you ladies for what you have offered.

[Luckymama]

OP I absolutely understand :grouphug: I haven't been able to really participate at church since my parents died (Mom in 2009 and Dad in 2011). I have no idea what to believe any more. And if I type more I'll lose my composure with dd13 across of the table from me so...

[milovany]

For those of us who don't believe in that kind of a God, however, we understand that tragedy and death are part of life. There's no purpose in it. There's no grand design. It just happens, and it sucks. But that makes life all the more precious, because we don't think it's a pitstop on the way to heaven or whatever. This, right now, is what's important, and the losses make us cling more tightly to the beautiful things we still have, and appreciate them all the more.

 

I'm a Christian (eastern Orthodox) and this is how I feel. I grayed out the parts that as a Christian I don't agree with, but the gist of your message remains.

[gardenmom5]

The worst thing is I really want to talk to God about this but I am so afraid of him now. I'm so afraid of him. :(

 

I haven't responded before because I tend to be so inarticulate.

 

I do want to respond to this thought. do talk to God. Tell Him what you really feel. He's a big boy, and can take it. I've been in confusing difficulties, and only when really pouring out my whole soul and how I really felt - even if it was anger, hurt, and despair - did I somehow, receive soothe to my soul, despite the circumstances, pain, grief, etc. I was feeling.

 

I believe God can still soothe the wounded heart, even when the circumstances suck.

[Twigs]

:grouphug: :grouphug: :grouphug:

[Stacia]

womanintheshoe, I hope you find peace on your journey, even though it may be a long time in coming. Please remember to be kind & true to yourself.

 

I was brought up in a somewhat religious background, but never (even as a child) felt real belief. I briefly continued church as an adult, but felt I could not continue to actively participate in something I don't believe.

 

I consider myself agnostic, meaning that I think humans cannot know whether God, god, gods, or some bigger, spiritual essence(s) exist or not. It is simply something unknowable to humankind. Perhaps he/she/it/they exist; perhaps he/she/it/they do not exist.

 

For many, comfort comes from having belief (whether that means one believes in something bigger than us or whether one believes that no such thing exists). For myself, I am completely comfortable in not knowing.

 

As far as the events that have led you to questioning the qualities of God, many :grouphug: . Some events are just devastating & heartbreaking. My condolences to you & to your community.