Why is it always MY kid who has to adapt and just deal?

[Dmmetler]

One of the moms at co-op told me that she doesn't think my DD should do her presentations because "it makes the other kids feel bad that they don't know what she's talking about". So, I'm supposed to take my kid, who is frustrated beyond her endurance and who is trying her best to make it work and tell her that she shouldn't do the ONE THING she enjoys in the class, because "it makes other kids feel bad?" She's already trying to simplify her language for her audience (using terms like "egg-laying" instead of oviparous.

 

Worse yet, this mom chose to tell me this in front of DD-which had her ripping this week's visuals up in the car on the way home.

 

Sigh...only 3 more weeks..... Unfotunately, I agreed to teach one of them (in another class) so we can't just not go back and call the year over, much as I'd like to do so.

 

Sad thing is, this mom is also one who makes a big deal about how advanced her kids are, and how hard they are to raise. She obviously has read about giftedness and knows the language. So why can't she understand the needs of ANOTHER gifted kid-that DD isn't trying to make others feel bad-it's that she's doing what the teacher gave ALL the kids the option to do, at her own level!

[La Condessa]

I'm so sorry.

[MomatHWTK]

The other mother was wrong all the way around. She's probably decided either to hold her own children back and doesn't want anyone else choosing a different course, or her children aren't as gifted as she thinks they are and she's the one feeling bad.

 

If she's teaching the class and can decide on who does presentations then you may have to take it to a higher level. Let the deciding members know that refusing to let a child participate is wrong, whether it is because the child will do well or not good enough.

 

For the long haul, if your DD really is having trouble communicating with peers, then that is an opportunity for you to step in mom. Teach her to introduce big terms with humor and grace. Have her explain the meaning of the word and why it means "egg-laying." Make it fun. These are valuable skills that will serve her well throughout life. ;)

 

FWIW, I can't handle co-ops, I don't like any other "cooks" in my kitchen. :)

[PinkyandtheBrains.]

Who the heck says a kid shouldn't give their presentation because it might be over the other kids heads?! It is her homework/project she should present like everyone else.

 

I'd speak out about this, then I'd leave the co-op. We've had bad luck with co-op type activities so far.

[Dmmetler]

It's hard because this was a group I started, 3 years ago, and I genuinely love teaching. And when it was a small, multi-age group, it worked. I feel bad for abandoning it-which was why we did this semester at all, but it's not worth putting DD to the point that she's at.

 

 

I'm considering asking DD to be my helper with the preschool/K kids I teach. Maybe that would be better?

 

 

And of course, Tuesday she also has dance with the over stressed, over critical teacher, and DD's wound so tight that 8 suspect one comment will lead to her bursting into tears,

 

 

At least the snake was willing to be cuddled this afternoon! God bless that critter-I don't know that DD would have made it through this year without her!

[nitascool]

I am so sorry this happened to your dd. We have not had good success with co-ops either. Often the groups my son finds interest in are for older kids. When he is old enough to take a class it is dumbed down to the point of being rediculous. Of late, my youngest has been word checking herself with the adults in her life. The fact that my 5yo has to simplify her vocabulary to be understood by adults often makes we worry about the path our sociaty is on. I too find it difficult to swallow that my children always have to be the ones to change. Recently, a woman at the library told my dd that she uses too big of words, and laughing said I don't even know what reverberate means. I thing we moms of bright kids can only take so much... because that day, I had had it. I told her, "Your a librarian. LOOK IT UP!" and grabbed my dd's hand and stormed off. Not my best of moments but it sure felt good.

[nmoira]

I'm sorry. If it's not a done deal, I hope you're able to tell her that that plan doesn't meet your daughter's needs, as this is something she had our a lot of effort in... Unless perhaps you misunderstood and she was suggesting it be presented to all the classes? :)

 

Here's something you and she might have some fun with:

 

http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/up-goer-five-and-science-communication/

 

 

"As a challenge to science communicators, geneticist Theo Sanderson created a website called Up-Goer Five – the concept and title was inspired by a comic by XKCD in which he explains the blueprints for a Saturn V rocket using only the 1000 most commonly used words. The Up-Goer Five site has a text editor in which you can place text, and it will highlight every word that is not on the list of the 1000 most commonly used"

[Five More Minutes]

This brought tears to my eyes. It's NOT fair for the other mother to suggest that your daughter shouldn't present to the group, much less to make that request IN FRONT OF your daughter. I am so sorry for you both.

[Greenmama2]

Wow! The things some parents choose to say in front of children, either theirs or mine boggles my mind sometimes. I'm so sorry this happened to your daughter. Honestly, that would be cause for me quitting despite having committed to teaching.

[clemota]

Unacceptable. If this was a project that ALL of the children were offered the option of doing, then your daughter has EVERY RIGHT to do it. Making other kids feel bad? I sincerely doubt it - I bet mom was more bothered by the fact that her kids didn't do a project than they were.

 

Can you speak to this other parent privately (outside of earshot of your dd) and let her know how you feel? Either way, I think you should absolutely let your daughter continue to make her presentations for the next 3 weeks - and let her know that sometimes grownups can be very wrong about things - like this parent was to even ask such a thing. Your child has as much right to be there and participate to the fullest that every other child there does. So let her.

 

Putting my mama bear back in the cage now...

[Χά�ων]

Wait, this is YOUR coop? I would tell that mom that she is highly disrespectful towards a student in the coop and (nicely) tell her to sit down and shut up or not come back.

[texasmama]

I'm sorry. I think that was very rude of her. I would love to hear your dd's presentation.

[Crimson Wife]

her children aren't as gifted as she thinks they are and she's the one feeling bad.

 

Bingo. The worst moms to deal with are the ones "hothousing" bright-but-not-gifted kids.

[Kaleidoscope]

Ridiculous! I'd never expect another child to dumb down for my kids. Why wouldn't she see it as a learning opportunity for her child? Or a chance for her child to learn good manners of just listening politely? That's so annoying. I'm sorry.

[crazyforlatin]

Could you have your Dd adjust her language according to her audience? Politicians do this....

 

I know it may not be ideal for your DD, but if she loves presenting, giving speeches, debating, she will have to communicate so that her audience will feel comfortable and enjoy listening to her. It's a two-way street with presentations. It's easier for your DD to adapt to the audience than for the audience to adapt to her.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Dmmetler]

It's not the instructor, but a mom who regularly helps in that class-which means that I suppose it really shouldn't bother me, but it does, and from DD's point of view, she doesn't see one adult as having more authority than another-it's still a grown up who heard her present her work and found it lacking.

 

The instructor has been really good about encouraging the kids to share or present something each week. Maybe 2-3 kids do, and DD is the only one who takes it beyond a basic show and tell. It's never very long-she knows she only has a few minutes, so she tries to find some really interesting facts and ideas to share and good pictures to go with them, generally making them into little books to share. Things like "A day in the life of the Loch Ness Monster". I do think this last one might have gotten a bit more wordy than some-she was researching Cobras in India, and if there's one thing she's passionate about, it's snakes.

 

The instructor actually sent me an e-mail letting me know that they were doing Denmark next week, and that since she knows DD is into Legos, that maybe DD might want to do something about them.

 

 

I deliberately took myself out of teaching a unit for DD's class this year-they need me more with the little ones, and since I was an adjunct in ECED music education (birth-age 7) until last year, and did most of my teaching in the lab school where I'd get to teach children with college students watching, I've got a BIG bag of tricks to draw on. It's not my co-op, but as one of the moms who originally founded it, and as one of the people on the organizing board for the whole group it's under, it's something I do struggle with walking away from-in large part because I KNOW how hard it is to pick up the slack when someone walks out. We've lost not one but two instructors for the teens this year, for example-one because she separated from her husband and had to go back to work, and the other because of emergency surgery-and it's tough. I'm covering the preschool for the last month to free up a parent to go to an older age group and teach there.

[QuirkyKapers]

So rude and so hurtful. I would not stop your child from doing her presentations. In fact, I would tell that lady you have been thinking about what she said and that if her child is not understanding, than perhaps the child should step out during that time. I would also let her know how hurtful her words were to your daughter. Frankly, I think she owes your daughter an apology and would be tempted to tell her so. If she isn't in charge, I would let the leaders know.

[Barbara H]

I agree - that's totally unacceptable nonsense. And, I bet if we could do a survey of the kids in the group they'd say they enjoy your daughter's presentations. Also, just eliminating the presentations is not going to prevent an awareness that's she's especially smart. Kids are quite good at figuring out the best qualities of their peers and they tend to feel comfortable with them.

[kiwik]

I seem to recall your daughter is youngish- I really don't think kids at this age feel bad in the way she was suggesting. It would be a problem if other adults were holding here up as example but if the are just saying thankyou, I never knew that about ... and calling on the next person I should think they wouldn't give it a thought beyond so and so knows a lot about ...

 

It is generally adults who get hung up on these things not children.

[EKS]

I guess I'll go against the flow a bit here and say that although I think what that woman said was unacceptable, the other issue here is that when giving a presentation, the presenter needs to tailor it to the intended audience. It's not dumbing down; it's the appropriate thing to do.

[clemota]

Hmmm. It sounds as if the instructor not only understands your daughter's love of presentations, but actually is encouraging it by emailing you about future subjects. Would you feel comfortable letting her know what happened (without naming names if you'd like) and seeing what she thinks about the whole thing? I think that since she's the instructor, it'll really be up to her to ask a child to stop presenting.

 

I still think that other mom has jealousy issues.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

8yo's get to be themselves. 16yo's have to learn to self-censor for less educated audiences. (My vociferous "liking" on all the posts in this thread is because the thread is triggering some anger over my child, aged 16, who needed to do that very thing this past weekend for no good reason but he did it.)

 

But at 8? Part of the class, proud of her work, should be presenting it like everyone else. I'm so angry for you and for her. What the woman said is just wrong. Jealous, petty, thoughtless, and wrong.

[kiwik]

But to be honest she will probably spend a lot of her life adapting. But she shouldn't have to start at 8. My vocabulary started going downhill at 16 when I started working.

[violamama]

Gah. Bleh. What a cow. I'm sorry, but if she had said something to YOU alone that would be one thing. I'd have sympathy.

 

For somebody to be SO self-absorbed that they have to express that bull crap in front of a child... An 8 year old child who put effort into a presentation of ANY kind, let alone something so personally awesome? No.

 

If she came near me again with that crap, I would say something along the lines of, "Well, I'm so sorry! I'm afraid you have misunderstood the purpose of this experience. It is also to teach children to respect the effort and advanced knowledge of another. I'm sure you can understand the importance of such a skill and of how to respect others, especially children. (INSERT LONG MEANINGFUL LOOK HERE)"

 

But that probably won't make your most excellent DD feel any better, and I'm really sorry about that.

[ElizabethB]

"As a challenge to science communicators, geneticist Theo Sanderson created a website called Up-Goer Five – the concept and title was inspired by a comic by XKCD in which he explains the blueprints for a Saturn V rocket using only the 1000 most commonly used words. The Up-Goer Five site has a text editor in which you can place text, and it will highlight every word that is not on the list of the 1000 most commonly used"

 

That is funny!

 

It reminds me of one of our favorite Dilbert comics, he was told to make it simple for management, then simpler for leadership, the final result was a little smiley face.

 

We lost it a few moves ago, I chuckled almost every time I saw it, it was on our fridge for a long time.

[MomatHWTK]

Maybe you could suggest that they do a seminar on how to encourage a child's self-esteem for the adults. She sounds like she could use a few tips for the sake of all the children, including her own.

[Dmmetler]

My thing is-how is an 8 yr old supposed to learn if she doesn't try? She's already attempting to filter her vocabulary for the group and pull it back (and looking at her notes, she really is trying in this regard). It's like she can't win. Either she's too advanced to be allowed to share, or she's not advanced enough because she doesn't have the rhetoric skills yet. There's no "advanced kids deserve the chance to learn, too".

 

 

 

 

[Rebecca VA]

Your daughter's presentation sounds great! I think it's WONDERFUL that the other kids will get the benefit of her research and hard work. You should tell the other mom that truly gifted kids (like hers -- snark) tend to respond well to challenging material -- it makes them think harder and faster. The other mom should be GRATEFUL that her children are able to spend time with a child like yours. They will definitely learn something.

[kwg]

I don't get it- the kids I know, would prob raise their hand (LOL, or just blurt out) "What does oviparous even mean?" and she could tell them and all is well that ends well.

I think I might tell DD that the teacher is very excited to hear her next presentation and thinks she does a great job. I mean, she is is emailing you ideas!

[kwg]

I am all in a tizzy now for your dd! I mean really! It isn't even like those kind of words are not introduced to your "average" child anyway. What is her problem?

Chickens Aren't the Only Ones

 

 

Maybe you should send her a booklist before your dd's presentations.

[EKS]

 

Yeah if the presenter is presenting in a professional meeting. She's 8 (according to OP's sig line).

 

If I go listen to a scholar present something I don't expect him or her to dumb his stuff down to make me feel good about myself.

 

As far as being 8 is concerned, it sounds as though the OP's child would have no problem understanding how to make a presentation appropriate for the intended audience. It's not about making anyone feel good about themselves--it's about *communication*.

 

As for listening to a scholar present something, if you are not a member of the intended audience, then of course you're not necessarily going to understand every last thing (or going the other way, it might be too basic). But if the intended audience is educated adults who are not experts in the field, then I would expect you to.

[KarenNC]

I have an advanced kid with a large vocabulary and I was that kid myself. I have been the recipient of "the look" for my vocabulary and for my daughter's vocabulary many times. My daughter has had adults and her friends comment on her vocabulary from time to time. It's annoying.

 

First, the woman was out of line, especially to say this in front of the child and in suggesting she not do her presentations. Poor social skills on the adult's part, as was the librarian's response.

 

However, and I say this with great empathy, yes, she's only 8, but part of teaching her to do presentations includes helping her go over it and identifying any "specialty words" that she might need to define as she gives the presentation, particularly in her area of passion. I disagree with a PP that words like "oviparous" are routinely presented to average 8 yo children. No one person is going to be fluent in all the terminology associated with any field (try me and texting :) which I definitely don't identify as highly advanced vocabulary!). I would definitely *not* present this to her as "dumbing down" her material but as part of her responsibility as a presenter because other kids may not have read as much about snakes, just as she may not have read as much or know as much specialty terminology about trains or motorcycles or astronomy or what have you. I stress to my child that the purpose of communication is actually to transfer meaning from one person to another---if we don't do that, we've failed to communicate regardless of the words we use. She can still use correct terminology but make it accessible to the audience--"Snakes lay eggs, which means they are oviparous" or "Snakes are called oviparous, which means they lay eggs" for example. Not something she needs to make a big deal about. This skill will go a long way for her.

[brownie]

Funny - Our ps has each of the kindergarteners do an oral report on an oviparous animal every year. And I think it's more about the opportunity to get comfortable presenting at a young age than about science. Homeschoolers sometimes can be off base as to what is on-level academically. Sounds like she may have no idea what an 8 year old can understand.

[Crimson Wife]

It's one thing to quietly pull the mom aside and say something like, "I'm really impressed with the depth of your DD's presentations but I'm concerned some of the kids might be having a hard time following along with her. Maybe you could work with her to help her better tailor them for her audience, for example by making sure she defines unfamiliar terms. She take them from good to great that way." Constructive criticism after praising the hard work that the child has clearly put into the presentations.

 

It's quite another to say what was reported in the OP and in front of the child.

[clemota]

Goodness, for the sake of all us angry moms, you HAVE to let your DD make presentations! :lol: :hurray:

 

Tell her that we're all rooting for her and that the other mom was WRONG!

[shawthorne44]

I get a little teery at the thought of your daughter tearing her visuals

[kiwik]

It's one thing to quietly pull the mom aside and say something like, "I'm really impressed with the depth of your DD's presentations but I'm concerned some of the kids might be having a hard time following along with her. Maybe you could work with her to help her better tailor them for her audience, for example by making sure she defines unfamiliar terms. She take them from good to great that way." Constructive criticism after praising the hard work that the child has clearly put into the presentations.

 

It's quite another to say what was reported in the OP and in front of the child.

 

 

I agree

[Pen]

It's one thing to quietly pull the mom aside and say something like, "I'm really impressed with the depth of your DD's presentations but I'm concerned some of the kids might be having a hard time following along with her. Maybe you could work with her to help her better tailor them for her audience, for example by making sure she defines unfamiliar terms. She take them from good to great that way." Constructive criticism after praising the hard work that the child has clearly put into the presentations.

 

It's quite another to say what was reported in the OP and in front of the child.

 

 

I agree.

 

What the other mom said, esp to be in front of OP's child, was wrong.

 

The above suggestion for what she should have said is much better. Maybe OP can use the above to help her daughter, even though it was Kiwik not the other mom who was able to phrase it constructively.

 

And, esp. as an important person in this co-op, maybe OP could also suggest to the other mom this better way of communicating with OP or others in the future. As in, tell the other mom that what other mom said, really hurt her daughter who was ripping up visuals in car and so on. Convey the degree of distress that he own comment made--no doubt as much making the OP's child feel bad (or more) than the OP's child has made the other mom's children feel bad when they cannot understand the presentations.

 

Sounds like maybe an I'm sorry from the other mom to OP's dd would be helpful.

 

Maybe help from someone other than OP prior to presentation to know what is clear or not in OP's dc's presentation would be helpful. Sometimes a mom who has also read the same materials is too close to know what is going to be unclear to others. Another option might be to allow children to ask questions when they do not understand part of a presentation and have the presenter explain. That could solve the problem of other children not understanding and bring to OP's child's attention what sort of thing needs more explanation. At 8, I think we often do not have enough experience to know if a word we learn is commonplace to most people, or technical or unusual or perhaps archaic.

 

It does sound like the Co-op could use a meeting on constructive communication.

[nmoira]

OP, I was wondering how this ended up being resolved for your daughter.

 

 

That is funny!

 

It reminds me of one of our favorite Dilbert comics, he was told to make it simple for management, then simpler for leadership, the final result was a little smiley face.

 

We lost it a few moves ago, I chuckled almost every time I saw it, it was on our fridge for a long time.

 

I just ordered the Up Goer Five poster (it's 4 feet tall!) for my eldest. We'll put it up by her place at the school table. :D

 

[Dmmetler]

Not well, I'm afraid. DD didn't do a presentation this week, didn't say a WORD in class, and chose not to do the craft (which ordinarily she would have been all over). The instructor didn't push her on it, knowing the situation. Basically, DD's decided that she's not going to do anything that will make someone else feel bad, and that she's just going to endure the last couple of weeks-but didn't tell me that she'd planned to just plain shut down and do nothing until I asked her on it after the fact. She didn't want to come in my K class because no one else in her class does that. She's definitely not a happy camper, and I can't blame her.

 

I'm planning to not have her go for the next 2 weeks-DH can work from home, and let her stay home so I can fulfill my responsibilities. I think she might want to go to the last week, since it's just the honors program/party-but I plan to ask if she wants to get her awards for various things she's done this year there or if she'd rather get them out at dinner with DH and I. I'm thinking she may want to fly under the radar there, too.

[nmoira]

*hug*

[Lang Syne Boardie]

At this point I would really like to see a formal, public apology made to your daughter. Whoever gives it should say something about how everyone, including adults, sometimes forgets to be kind or fails to see the humanity in others, and they should apologize for making that mistake. They also should reiterate that ALL are welcome in the group and ALL are accepted just as they are, because we ALL can learn from each other.

 

Any chance of that happening? Would you want to force the issue?

 

She's self-marginalizing and self-punishing over something that was entirely that stupid woman's fault. :(

[Lang Syne Boardie]

I've never forced that issue or demanded respect for my child. I allowed my child to just accustom himself to the notion that he's different, outside the group, and that's where he always stood until he became a very good leader who learned that if he must stand outside the group, he is a person who can successfully stand at the front and lead them...it's worked out well for him but I don't think I'd make the same choice again. I think I'd want to insist that my child be treated with the same welcome and respect as any of the other children. But I've not BTDT, so I can't really advise how to bring it about.... :(

[Black-eyed Suzan]

Oh, this makes me so sad, especially hearing how she has changed her behavior as a result. And the fact that it came from an adult (who should know better!) just hurts.

 

Hugs to you and your daughter.

[kwg]

:( Are you going to talk to the mom who started this whole mess?

[Incognito]

I'm so sorry.

 

It sucks.

 

I don't know what I'd do if I were you, but I wish we lived nearby because from stuff you've written I think your DD and my DS would get along great.

[Greenmama2]

Wow, I'm so sad to hear the next installment :(

[Dmmetler]

I have brought it up with the executive board, along with the information that DD and I will be out of co-op entirely as soon as this year is over. Really, I should have pulled DD months ago, because it was obvious that it really wasn't a good fit, but with an instructor willing to try and with DD still enjoying some aspects-at least the presentation, the craft time, and the playing outside part, I figured it was OK (and I did make sure the instructor knew-which was a good thing, because otherwise, it would have made DD's behavior this week completely inexplicable). She's been so driven this year that having one day a week that had a few hours of lighter content didn't seem like a bad thing, either. And I love teaching kids. That's been the hardest part about giving up my university job was that I had to give up my lab school classes, too. I didn't expect it to end up hurting DD like this, though.

 

To be honest, until this week, when DD's behavior had changed so much, I almost felt guilty that I'd pursued it at all. Kind of a "do you want some cheese to go with that whine?" sort of situation.

 

 

 

I am starting to wonder what it is about age 8, though- 3rd grade was where I remember going from teachers who, for the most part, seemed to delight in my precociousness and who did their best to meet my needs, even though it wasn't great, to teachers who seemed to delight in chopping me down and making me feel small, and where I went from loving school to dreading it. DD, even though she's outside the school system, seems to be running into a lot of those adults this year, too.

[musicianmom]

I am really angry on behalf of you and your daughter. Envy is one thing, attempting to tear someone down to satisfy full-blown resentment and jealousy? I can't fathom that in someone who isn't NPD or something.

 

[clemota]

I am so sorry to hear this and so disgusted to think about the way your DD was basically BULLIED by an ADULT. Here we are, trying to teach our children the correct path and a grown up comes along and does the opposite. Ugh. I think you've made the right decision in letting her avoid it for the rest of the year. It's what I would do for my kids as well.

 

I sincerely hope you both are able to brush as much of this off as you can, and DD starts to feel better about herself.

 

And I know it's petty, but I secretly hope that other mom gets a taste of her own medicine. Soon.