NY Times Article: It Takes a BA to find a job as a file clerk

[gingersmom]

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/20/business/college-degree-required-by-increasing-number-of-companies.html?_r=0

 

I read it this morning and thought everyone might find it interesting.

 

I"m not even sure what to say/think after reading it.

[MFG]

I think it is a reflection of the job market. One of my goals was to see that each of our children completed an undergraduate degree and we accomplished that this past spring. Some are still working to get a job that really requires that degree, but they are all working.

[DianeW88]

Yep, most companies won't even look at you without a Bachelor's anymore. A friend of ours in his fifties who sells medical equipment (and has for 30 years) was told recently that he needs to get his degree or he'll be fired. They don't even care what the degree is...ballroom dancing would be ok....as long as he has one. So he's back in school at night or he'll lose his job.

[butterflymommy]

Is Ms. Parker wearing pants with that "shirt?" :ohmy:

 

Reading between the lines, it's not just ambition the law firm is after, but intelligence. They're assuming the college grads are smarter.

[Scarlett]

Is Ms. Parker wearing pants with that "shirt?" :ohmy:

 

Reading between the lines, it's not just ambition the law firm is after, but intelligence. They're assuming the college grads are smarter.

 

 

I wondered the same thing!

[momofkhm]

This:

 

"When you get 800 résumés for every job ad, you need to weed them out somehow,â€

 

It's sad but it's the state we are in right now.

[jillian]

Unfortunately it seems to be accurate (didn't read article). Very few people I know got to keep their job without a degree. My father in law works in the oil field and doesn't have a degree and built his career to this day without one, he has been at VP level in the corporations he has worked at. He knows it is rare and feels so blessed.

[Lara in Colo]

I think a lot of this is because the US has out sourced all of the manufacturing, as well as the meaninglessness of a HS diploma.

[ksr5377]

My brother's girlfriend graduated last spring and could not find a job in the field of her degree. After awhile, she was looking for ANY job. She is now answering phones for a large food manufacturer, you know, the 1-800 # on the back to call for questions/complaints etc. They required a Bachelor's degree for this job. Even she thinks it's ridiculous.

[jillian]

Heard a stat today from my LMFT supervisor that by 2070 the homeless population will primarily have PhDs. Don't have a source but that's the outlook from some places I guess.

[kewb]

My dh had to go back to school to finish his degree or be out of a job. Now he is getting his masters for the same reason.

I saw this trend almost a decade ago before I left my corporate job. They were looking for BAs for entry level jobs and a MBA if they could get it. I thought it was ridiculous then and I still think it is ridiculous.

 

From the corporate side-if you are thinking of hiring from within for growth then it may make sense to hire a BA. If, however, you are looking to hire someone who will be content to stay in their position for 30 years then you do not need a BA.

[misty.warden]

Are they assuming that grads are more intelligence or are they looking at the fact that the worker stuck out the four (or more) years? Let's face it, getting through four years of dealing with nutso profs and learning to jump through hoops might mean that the worker can deal with nutso bosses and "this is how it's done here" situations. Musing here...

 

I think that some days too. That and education level is about the only defining characteristic left that isn't listed as something employers cannot use to discriminate. On a related note, I noticed that the protection for age discrimination only protects older applicants, burned my biscuits for quite some time along with things like "must have 2 years experience" for entry level positions.

 

Heard a stat today from my LMFT supervisor that by 2070 the homeless population will primarily have PhDs. Don't have a source but that's the outlook from some places I guess.

 

Correlation and causation may be at work here, I can see places not hiring a PhD to work a job they could pay a person with a MA to do for 75% the wage. "Overqualified" can be just as much a kiss of death. OTOH, I see many of my peers going back for MAs after getting the Bachelor's they were told would get them a job, any job, because it didn't work.

 

 

ETA: this made me cry a little inside:

“I am over $100,000 in student loan debt right now,†said Megan Parker, who earns $37,000 as the firm’s receptionist. She graduated from the Art Institute of Atlanta in 2011 with a degree in fashion and retail management, and spent months waiting on “bridezillas†at a couture boutique, among other stores, while churning out office-job applications.

“I will probably never see the end of that bill, but I’m not really thinking about it right now,†she said. “You know, this is a really great place to work.â€

People aren't even able to entertain the thought of actually paying back their loan debt even with a job. (Yeah I'm bitter and have part of a degree in a "growing field hiring all the time" that won't get me hired at Subway)

[jillian]

Yeah I don't know how they measured it, like I said I don't have the source for that statistic that was tossed out today during the meeting. I know for my BA in Psychology I could've done a variety of things--law school for example or go for an MBA but basically I was stuck with secretarial type jobs without going further in my education. I'm currently working on my MA in MFT and love it but also by looking at what is available in our area we may have to move when dh gets out of military, or I have to start a private practice.

[HS Mom in NC]

So they think people who invested more money (college tuition) and are getting a lower return on that money (low paying jobs) are smarter? Better business people? So what if you have life long crippling debt for a degree that isn't directly related to you line of work. Just ignore it and I'm sure there will be no consequences. Go back and get a degree and a pile of debt even if you've got tons of experience just so your boss can mark it off his list. He needs some camaraderie for a football game after all.

 

The emperor isn't wearing any clothes and not many people want to point it out. No one wants to demand that government roll back over regulation and taxation be rolled back to entice companies to stay in the US and those that are here expand. That's the root of the problem. Until we address the many issues that feed the decrease in our economy we're just limping along toward a cliff. Jumping through more expensive hoops now won't pay in the long run.

[Ali in OR]

Several years ago George Will wrote an interesting article on this, I think for Newsweek. His point was that when it became illegal (too discriminatory) for companies to give applicants tests ("intelligence" tests or aptitude tests), the college degree became their go-to minimum standard to prove that the person was smart enough to do the job. Even if the job doesn't really require a degree. So instead of proving you can do the work, you don't get the opportunity and must first fork over huge amounts of money to get a piece of paper to prove you can do the work.

[laughing lioness]

It's a global market with new rules. We've gotten soft and pampered and expect the rules from the 50's - the 80's to still apply. Zakara's Post American World is a great read.

[Danestress]

Several years ago George Will wrote an interesting article on this, I think for Newsweek. His point was that when it became illegal (too discriminatory) for companies to give applicants tests ("intelligence" tests or aptitude tests), the college degree became their go-to minimum standard to prove that the person was smart enough to do the job. Even if the job doesn't really require a degree. So instead of proving you can do the work, you don't get the opportunity and must first fork over huge amounts of money to get a piece of paper to prove you can do the work.

 

 

That is interesting and has the ring of truth about it. It makes sense. On the other hand, intelligence and personality testing are still regularly used by employers, so it's not illegal. My son has extensive testing before he was hired last year. So even though I think it makes sens that a college degree might be increasingly used as a way to say who is "smart enough" to finish college, Will was wrong if he said that intelligence testing is now illegal.

[LibraryLover]

Didn't NYT just publish an article about how stupid humans are getting? It's not so easy keeping up with sound bites.

[K&Rs Mom]

That's not the case everywhere. My last job before kids was as a clerk at our county's district court. It required a highschool diploma and test (spelling, punctuation, don't remember what else), and maybe 1/3 of the clerks had a college degree. I know that's still the requirement here because I check the county job postings now & then, just to keep an idea what's out there in case I need to go back to work. Bank tellers here just need a highschool diploma too. I have a BA, but the only job I've ever had that required it was as a substitute teacher. I hate that everyone is being told that they must go to college - that's just dumbing down our colleges.

[tex-mex]

Most likely due to our economy gone sour and so many job applicants... the new "rule" makes those who are overqualified get the interview. Easier to weed out candidates from a Human Resources POV?

[regentrude]

The article highlights again that not all majors are created equal and that it may not be wise to go into deep debt for a major with poor career prospects. A bit of research beforehand would be useful.

 

“I am over $100,000 in student loan debt right now,†said Megan Parker, who earns $37,000 as the firm’s receptionist. She graduated from the Art Institute of Atlanta in 2011 with a degree in fashion and retail management, and spent months waiting on “bridezillas†at a couture boutique, among other stores, while churning out office-job applications.

[kiana]

The article highlights again that not all majors are created equal and that it may not be wise to go into deep debt for a major with poor career prospects. A bit of research beforehand would be useful.

 

 

+eleventy billion.

 

I am so happy that I went to the local state school. If I hadn't done study abroad I would have had 0 debt (although the study abroad is a big reason that I was able to keep up in graduate school), but even as-is I had under $10k.

[elegantlion]

Yep, most companies won't even look at you without a Bachelor's anymore. A friend of ours in his fifties who sells medical equipment (and has for 30 years) was told recently that he needs to get his degree or he'll be fired. They don't even care what the degree is...ballroom dancing would be ok....as long as he has one. So he's back in school at night or he'll lose his job.

 

Dh ran into this when he tried to find a job instead of being self-employed. They wanted a degree for construction job, even though he has 30 years of experience. The companies that didn't care about the degree weren't hiring.

 

One of the companies that he ended up working for required the secretary to have a bachelor's degree. It was a small company in the middle of nowhere rural midwest.

 

This is one of the reasons we feel adamant that ds get at least a four year degree, not just for his 20 something career, but for some security if he wants to change careers.

[FaithManor]

That's not the case everywhere. My last job before kids was as a clerk at our county's district court. It required a highschool diploma and test (spelling, punctuation, don't remember what else), and maybe 1/3 of the clerks had a college degree. I know that's still the requirement here because I check the county job postings now & then, just to keep an idea what's out there in case I need to go back to work. Bank tellers here just need a highschool diploma too. I have a BA, but the only job I've ever had that required it was as a substitute teacher. I hate that everyone is being told that they must go to college - that's just dumbing down our colleges.

 

After our local county clerk retired (she'd been in the job for 35 years and was much loved), they announced that the replacement would have to have an A.A. in business. Bank tellers here now also have to have two years of business school. Three years ago, this was not the case.

 

Faith

[LucyStoner]

The job I held down almost FT to pay for college (and worked to rave performance and client reviews while taking 15-20 credits a quarter) is now advertised as a BA needed position when it is open. The last two people who have had it have MAs. It's a bit absurd. I don't know the pay rate now but 10 years ago it was about $24,000/year for FT. Probably isn't that much higher now. I moved on and up after school but I didn't have a year of college when I was doing that job exceedingly well.

 

A two year program at the community college in conjunction with city light leads to an in demand job that starts in the 40s and goes up to 100k and which is as immune from offshoring as you can get. You have to wonder who is "smarter"? I have a friend whose family paid cash on the barrel for an elite 4 year liberal arts education. She quite happily manages a locally owned pizza parlor while doing her art and teaching workshops on the side. She points out that had she known then what she knows now, that money might have been better spent on a place to live, allowing her to invest more of her decent salary for her and her partner's later years.

[creekland]

My dh had to go back to school to finish his degree or be out of a job. Now he is getting his masters for the same reason.

I saw this trend almost a decade ago before I left my corporate job. They were looking for BAs for entry level jobs and a MBA if they could get it. I thought it was ridiculous then and I still think it is ridiculous.

 

 

I know 6 friends IRL who have had to go back to get a degree to either keep their job or move up in their job. Every single one of them is making sure their kids get a degree right after high school. As life produces more workers than jobs, one is going to need any advantage they can get unless they have loads of money to do something on their own (business or whatever). The trick is getting a degree without high debt.

 

Even jobs that don't yet require a degree are hiring applicants who have one over those who don't. My cousin got a job in law enforcement last year. There were two hired out of 40+ applicants. The only two hired coincidentally happened to be the only two with 4 year degrees. My cousin doesn't regret his debt (but it's not even close to approaching 100K).

 

If one isn't the fit for a 4 year degree, go for a 2 year degree or certificate. Something post high school is going to be more and more critical as the years move on unless one has the funds and ability to go into business for themselves where they can make the rules.

[FaithManor]

I know 6 friends IRL who have had to go back to get a degree to either keep their job or move up in their job. Every single one of them is making sure their kids get a degree right after high school. As life produces more workers than jobs, one is going to need any advantage they can get unless they have loads of money to do something on their own (business or whatever). The trick is getting a degree without high debt.

 

Even jobs that don't yet require a degree are hiring applicants who have one over those who don't. My cousin got a job in law enforcement last year. There were two hired out of 40+ applicants. The only two hired coincidentally happened to be the only two with 4 year degrees. My cousin doesn't regret his debt (but it's not even close to approaching 100K).

 

If one isn't the fit for a 4 year degree, go for a 2 year degree or certificate. Something post high school is going to be more and more critical as the years move on unless one has the funds and ability to go into business for themselves where they can make the rules.

 

I agree with this and I do feel that some of the blame falls on the fact that a PS high school diploma is not what it used to be. Yes, there are pockets of education out there in which the kids are really receiving a great education. We meet these kids when we go to TARC. Let me say this, many, many of the public school sponsorted teams that make it in the top 100 are from schools in the top 1000 high schools in the nation. Give that there are 22,000 + high schools, we are talking roughly the top 5% so only a tiny percentage of students have access to such a school. Our local PS, the diploma they hand out isn't worth the paper it's printed on. Grade inflation, apathy, dumbing down of classes, devoting nearly all resources to remedial courses, etc. Local employers expect a high school graduate from this district to be functionally illiterate, math incompetant, and incapable of logical thought. Adding insult to injury is that it's a horrible environment and the kids are relegated to it for 13 years and the end result is that MANY of these kids have been just herded along with no one caring about them as an individual. This does not produce a thinking, breathing, enthusiastic, job tackling employee. Unfortunately, it breeds people who want a paycheck for doing very little because they received a diploma for doing so little. The only bright spot are the kids who are taking vo-tech at a learning center in the county-seat for the last two years of high school. It's run rather differently from the regular PS and the teachers have to be industry experts but not state certified. So, paramedics with level 2 or higher certification teach the EMT and American Red Cross first aid courses. Mechanics that own local businesses and possess their highest level of mechanical licensing teach those classes. Restaurant management is taught by the owner of a successful sit-down type restaurant. Catering is taught by caterers, etc. The quality of the teaching is higher because they can boot a disruptive student out without state oversight, they create their own syllabi and dictate the work necessary to earn credit, the instructors have jobs elsewhere that makes their bread and butter so they don't give a fig about the state - if the working environment is not pleasant and worth their effort, they leave - and on and on...the instructor is in the driver's seat with many options. Since it is hands-on learning, it fits the needs of many students not well served by traditional high schools. However, even with that in mind and the fact that local employers do feel the kids coming out of the vo-tech center have a better work ethic, they still expect to see a two year degree pursued. The reality for them is that they want to see perseverance and many would like these kids to have some business classes. Additionally, any vocational licensing options in Michigan require two years post high school to get even if a degree isn't completed.

 

I really think the years of being able to get any kind of job with just a HS diploma are pretty well gone and certainly the ability to be promoted within a company without formalized, higher ed has disappeared.

 

Faith

[K&Rs Mom]

As life produces more workers than jobs, one is going to need any advantage they can get unless they have loads of money to do something on their own (business or whatever). The trick is getting a degree without high debt.

<snip>

If one isn't the fit for a 4 year degree, go for a 2 year degree or certificate. Something post high school is going to be more and more critical as the years move on unless one has the funds and ability to go into business for themselves where they can make the rules.

 

I've heard this a lot - that we have (and are gaining) more workers than jobs, and it makes sense of our unemployment rates. But I'm also seeing articles about population decline, especially in the richer nations, and how there aren't enough workers to balance out all those leaving the work force. :confused1: I'm so confused.

 

I think the idea of "get a job" is pushed more than it was in history, so that it doesn't even occur to people to create their own jobs. The college system certainly benefits from this, as we see demand for their services skyrocket, but I think our culture as a whole is losing out because of it. I don't think it's sustainable. Someone has to be providing those jobs. My dh would love to grow his business and hire some employees, but the current legal system makes that all but impossible - it's so complicated that you can't follow all the laws if you wanted to. He's also punished for running his own business, paying a lot more in taxes than he ever did as an employee. With all the disincentives, plus being trained in such a way that the idea never occurs to them, it's no wonder people aren't starting their own businesses, even though it really doesn't take a superhuman ability or tons of money.

[butterflymommy]

I've heard this a lot - that we have (and are gaining) more workers than jobs, and it makes sense of our unemployment rates. But I'm also seeing articles about population decline, especially in the richer nations, and how there aren't enough workers to balance out all those leaving the work force. :confused1: I'm so confused.

 

The US population is being propped up by hispanic immigration (both legal and illegal). If you factored out that segment of the population we would be facing an approaching crisis like other rich countries. Japan, which has very strict anti-immigration policies, already sells more adult diapers than baby diapers.

 

So what you are reading about rich countries doesn't apply to the US because of (mostly hispanic) immigration.

 

This is also why the US will be majority hispanic within a generation or so. The white birthrate is well below replacement and I think the black birthrate is just barely at replacement. The hispanic birthrate is well above.

[creekland]

 

Someone has to be providing those jobs. My dh would love to grow his business and hire some employees, but the current legal system makes that all but impossible - it's so complicated that you can't follow all the laws if you wanted to. He's also punished for running his own business, paying a lot more in taxes than he ever did as an employee. With all the disincentives, plus being trained in such a way that the idea never occurs to them, it's no wonder people aren't starting their own businesses, even though it really doesn't take a superhuman ability or tons of money.

 

My hubby owns his own business, but now is the only employee (way too expensive to do it otherwise). When he needs others he subcontracts - even for day jobs. It didn't used to be this way, but it needs to be since the economic downfall. We're not the only ones in our area to do this (or do it more than before). It certainly wasn't cheap for him to leave where he worked and open his own (Civil Engineering) business though. We essentially went 18 months without getting an income from it while he built it up - and that's with being known in the area.

 

To be honest, most kids from high school who start their own business (tattoo, cooking/baking, computers, etc), fail. It's sad, but it takes a bit of start up cash to get almost anything going no matter how good they are at what they do. Some can make it work on the side, but right off hand, I can't think of any who have been able to make a living at it soon after graduation (for more than a few months).

[plansrme]

The people from the firm in the original article sounded to me like they wanted to assure themselves that they would only be surrounded by "PLUs," People Like Us. I suspect that requiring a four-year degree to answer phones is one way of doing that. The whole "our Christmas tree covered in college mascots" and slapping each other on the back during football season? Yeah, it's the post-millennial gold ole boy network; poor people need not apply.

 

I am possibly one of the most conservative Red Staters you will ever meet, and it smacks of that even to me.

 

Terri

[elegantlion]

If one isn't the fit for a 4 year degree, go for a 2 year degree or certificate. Something post high school is going to be more and more critical as the years move on unless one has the funds and ability to go into business for themselves where they can make the rules.

 

 

And we're the bad example of what happens if you want to cease being self-employed at age 50 without a degree. :bored: Dh considered going back to school, but health issue and income issue were too much to be overcome at this point.

 

My hubby owns his own business, but now is the only employee (way too expensive to do it otherwise). When he needs others he subcontracts - even for day jobs. It didn't used to be this way, but it needs to be since the economic downfall. We're not the only ones in our area to do this (or do it more than before). It certainly wasn't cheap for him to leave where he worked and open his own (Civil Engineering) business though. We essentially went 18 months without getting an income from it while he built it up - and that's with being known in the area.

 

To be honest, most kids from high school who start their own business (tattoo, cooking/baking, computers, etc), fail. It's sad, but it takes a bit of start up cash to get almost anything going no matter how good they are at what they do. Some can make it work on the side, but right off hand, I can't think of any who have been able to make a living at it soon after graduation (for more than a few months).

 

 

Thanks for sharing this. Ds would like to have his own business, but he at least gets that it needs to start on the side.

 

 

I do believe there will be entire industries that aren't yet invented that our children will be a part of creating. I want ds to have the opportunity in those industries, whatever they will be. It may be that the new round of entrepreneurs will be the ones dissatisfied with their job prospects after getting a 4 year degree.

[FaithManor]

To be honest, most kids from high school who start their own business (tattoo, cooking/baking, computers, etc), fail. It's sad, but it takes a bit of start up cash to get almost anything going no matter how good they are at what they do. Some can make it work on the side, but right off hand, I can't think of any who have been able to make a living at it soon after graduation (for more than a few months).

 

 

Sad to say, this is what we experience here too. The licensing alone for any kind of business in Michigan is tough. Some states may be more amenable to starting a business, but in heavily regulated areas, 18 year olds can't make it without a lot of cash. The insurance industry has a strangle hold here. Liability insurance alone for a cottage industry can be a killer and if you are caught operating a business without that, you'll be toasted. I stopped giving piano and voice lessons in my home 9 years ago. My liability insurance then just to cover a business related accident on my property (much, much more than the cost of having "accident" insurance for regular homeowner's policy) was $3600.00 per year. That number has nearly doubled. Many piano teachers either choose not to carry it and hope nothing happens, or they teach at a music store and pay rent and commission to the store, or they go out of business. I know that if I had taught through the music store, I would have paid $500.00 a month rent for my room plus 20% commission on the lessons. Of course, no 18 year old is going to get that anyway because music teachers need advanced training in order to teach at a level that allows you to charge a decent some of money for the lesson.

 

Most of the area businesses pay $7000.00 per year in liability if the business is located on personal property - ie. out of their garage or basement assuming zoning will allow you to do this. Store fronts pay anywhere from $10,000 - 15,000.00. Then there is licensing - often $1500.00 - 3000.00 per year, employer taxes (double the withholding of employee taxes), etc. The state actively pursues shutting down businesses trying to fly under the radar and the penalties are not pretty.

 

Maybe if the high schooler did something like cake decorating and lived in a state in which one could sell your wedding cakes without a licensed kitchen (some states one would be forced to get commercial licensing) and could live with mom and pop, then the 18/19 year old could make money. But, make a living? I doubt it. We have five professional cake decorators in our county and they are open about the fact that one can't live on it. The most prolific one, dd's cake decorator, is a Wilton distributor and does all kinds of intricate baked goods for a variety of events. She is able to have enough gigs to be baking, decorating, and selling product nearly every day. However, she said if her husband didn't have an income, she'd be virtually homeless on what she makes from it. This isn't Manhatten, D.C., or San Francisco and no one is paying $3000.00 for a wedding cake or $5.00 each for a special cookie. Her net profit is about $11,000.00 per year. Rent, utilities, food, car, car insurance, and gas for said car alone in this area would be more than that and that's leading a spartan lifestyle. I can think of other "easy to start of up" businesses for our area and none of them would provide a living wage. Taking on an employee means paying workman's comp and that's a large amount of money too.

 

I can not think of any business a new high school graduate could start in this state that would net a living wage without a significant start-up cost and even if the parents put out the working capitol to get it started, without training in business law and accounting, I don't think it would last long. This state is just too complicated to do business in without significant knowledge of the system to get you started.

 

Faith

[justamouse]

So they think people who invested more money (college tuition) and are getting a lower return on that money (low paying jobs) are smarter? Better business people? So what if you have life long crippling debt for a degree that isn't directly related to you line of work. Just ignore it and I'm sure there will be no consequences. Go back and get a degree and a pile of debt even if you've got tons of experience just so your boss can mark it off his list. He needs some camaraderie for a football game after all.

 

The emperor isn't wearing any clothes and not many people want to point it out. No one wants to demand that government roll back over regulation and taxation be rolled back to entice companies to stay in the US and those that are here expand. That's the root of the problem. Until we address the many issues that feed the decrease in our economy we're just limping along toward a cliff. Jumping through more expensive hoops now won't pay in the long run.

 

 

:iagree: :iagree: :iagree:

[Rose in BC]

I began work at my current place of employment when I was 25 working as a receptionist then moving into an administrative assistant role. I quit and stayed home for ten years. Then my husband lost his job due to a mill closure and I went back to work at same place for relief work where needed.

 

I ended up accepting a position as an admin assistant in a department and worked there less than a year when my supervisor went on long term leave. At the same time the company hired a new CAO. After a few months on the job he offered me my supervisor's job (a senior management role). He told me he hires for attitude...skills can be taught but work ethic and good attitudes not so much. I have been in that role for two years now.

 

I have two years college in my background.

 

I am editing to add my ten years homeschooling definitely have contributed to my ability to do well in my current career.

[justamouse]

I know 6 friends IRL who have had to go back to get a degree to either keep their job or move up in their job. Every single one of them is making sure their kids get a degree right after high school. As life produces more workers than jobs, one is going to need any advantage they can get unless they have loads of money to do something on their own (business or whatever). The trick is getting a degree without high debt.

 

Even jobs that don't yet require a degree are hiring applicants who have one over those who don't. My cousin got a job in law enforcement last year. There were two hired out of 40+ applicants. The only two hired coincidentally happened to be the only two with 4 year degrees. My cousin doesn't regret his debt (but it's not even close to approaching 100K).

 

If one isn't the fit for a 4 year degree, go for a 2 year degree or certificate. Something post high school is going to be more and more critical as the years move on unless one has the funds and ability to go into business for themselves where they can make the rules.

 

This, though, is why 'degree mills' are up and profiting. The next hoop will be WHERE did you get this degree from? Because right now that doesn't matter, and justly so.

 

We all talk about 'college experience' not being a good enough reason to take on massive debt, which is true, but, at a good school, more learning will be going on than just 'college experience' and I don't know that I want my child to forgo the B&M so that they can spend hours online, obtain a paper, call it a degree and a college education.

 

The whole of it is so screwed up.

 

 

Right now, to get out of all of the massive regulation and taxation, we hire temps. We have cut out everyone who isn't necessary, and we just use temps when we need them. This is what is happening ALL aound us.

[Amethyst]

Has anyone read Kurt Vonnegut's book Player Piano. It was satire. And in it the secretaries all had doctoral degrees. So it was funny. But now I think perhaps Vonnegut was prescient.

[elegantlion]

This, though, is why 'degree mills' are up and profiting. The next hoop will be WHERE did you get this degree from? Because right now that doesn't matter, and justly so.

 

We all talk about 'college experience' not being a good enough reason to take on massive debt, which is true, but, at a good school, more learning will be going on that just 'college experience' and I don't know that I want my child to forgo the B&M so that they can spend hours online, obtain a paper, and call it a degree and a college education.

 

The whole of it is so screwed up.

 

 

Right now, to get out of all of the massive regulation and taxation, we hire temps. We have cut out everyone who isn't necessary, and we just use temps when we need them. This is what is happening ALL aound us.

 

I agree about the degree mills. I have more than one real life example of the questionable quality of the teachers at those sources.

 

I hate to see a degree become tainted to a oh-you-have-a-degree- wink-wink-nudge-nudge type of situation.

 

I'd really like ds to become more educated through college, not just do it to get a piece of paper.

[Word Nerd]

As with most things, it depends on where you live and what industry you are in. DH does not have a degree, but he does have many years of experience, is licensed, and has other professional coursework and training.

 

There are two jobs open where I work right now. I doubt that applicants without a degree will even be considered--unless they have an outstanding resume with experience and training that makes them stand out from the pack and is solid enough to substitute for a degree.

 

A degree in itself won't help much either if your application package doesn't support the assumption that having a degree makes you well educated. You would be surprised at how many resumes and cover letters eliminate people from consideration because they're so poorly written and unprofessional (pro tip: don't send a hand-written resume on notebook paper).

[Jenny in Florida]

. . . as well as the meaninglessness of a HS diploma.

 

 

I think it's this, mostly, along with the push to get everyone to go to college.

 

It seems to me that we keep chasing the wrong goals, in terms of education. I mean, we keep hearing how high school graduation rates are going up, and we're sending more and more people to college, which sounds like great progress. But, in practice, what it means is that we're dumbing down the high school curriculum and standards, sending folks to college who aren't prepared and have to take remedial classes before they can even start their real college education, dumbing down the college curriculum to make it possible for some reasonable percentage of those folks to graduate and still seeing large numbers of folks who drop out of college burdened with debt and without a degree.

 

It would make so much more sense, I think, to make high school more rigorous and encourage post-secondary programs that would be meaningful, rather than pushing college as the right path for everyone.

[stripe]

The article highlights again that not all majors are created equal and that it may not be wise to go into deep debt for a major with poor career prospects. A bit of research beforehand would be useful.

 

 

What's scary is that I really don't see a good job market anywhere.

 

Check this out.

http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2013/02/the-phd-bust-americas-awful-market-for-young-scientists-in-7-charts/273339/

[creekland]

This, though, is why 'degree mills' are up and profiting. The next hoop will be WHERE did you get this degree from? Because right now that doesn't matter, and justly so.

 

We all talk about 'college experience' not being a good enough reason to take on massive debt, which is true, but, at a good school, more learning will be going on than just 'college experience' and I don't know that I want my child to forgo the B&M so that they can spend hours online, obtain a paper, call it a degree and a college education.

 

The whole of it is so screwed up.

 

 

Right now, to get out of all of the massive regulation and taxation, we hire temps. We have cut out everyone who isn't necessary, and we just use temps when we need them. This is what is happening ALL aound us.

 

 

Around here where the degree comes from doesn't matter IF someone is already on the job and merely needs the degree to check that box. U Phoenix or other online option? Fine. I've yet to see someone hired as a newbie with such a degree. For a first job, it still seems to matter.

 

It may be different in different areas.

[Esperella]

This is interesting because we have found the opposite to be true. my husband was homeschooled, graduated at 15 and flunked out of college. He had an internship with a big name software company, quit to be a mechanic's assistant. After we got married (at 20) he realized the only way to support us was going back to computer programming. He's always been very smart and a hard worker. He now works for a major software company (one he dreamed about working at as a child) and in 2 years time has been put in charge of running an entire team. He's gets a lot of anger from other people who have degrees when they find out he doesn't have one. He says after talking to others in the industry that too many people with degrees aren't taught to create anymore, and come out of college expecting 100k a year and constant promotion.

 

The computer industry has almost always been one where experience is as good if not more appreciable than a degree. A lot of people would rather have those with a passion, who study and are self starters. I can't speak to all careers but in our life, most of our friends don't have degrees and are working very successful, stable jobs.

 

My husband also got recommended for his current job by someone he played WoW with, so most parents hate him based on the never went to college, play wow and you'll succeed thing :)

[FaithManor]

This is interesting because we have found the opposite to be true. my husband was homeschooled, graduated at 15 and flunked out of college. He had an internship with a big name software company, quit to be a mechanic's assistant. After we got married (at 20) he realized the only way to support us was going back to computer programming. He's always been very smart and a hard worker. He now works for a major software company (one he dreamed about working at as a child) and in 2 years time has been put in charge of running an entire team. He's gets a lot of anger from other people who have degrees when they find out he doesn't have one. He says after talking to others in the industry that too many people with degrees aren't taught to create anymore, and come out of college expecting 100k a year and constant promotion.

 

The computer industry has almost always been one where experience is as good if not more appreciable than a degree. A lot of people would rather have those with a passion, who study and are self starters. I can't speak to all careers but in our life, most of our friends don't have degrees and are working very successful, stable jobs.

 

My husband also got recommended for his current job by someone he played WoW with, so most parents hate him based on the never went to college, play wow and you'll succeed thing :)

 

The computer industry can be one exception to the rule and that's because one can gain levels of certification without attending college classes if one is of the type to learn to program without instruction. It's also possible to take certification classes that are offered by Oracle or Microsoft outside of the college environment. We know a few people who have managed it.

 

However, since the new hiring rule for dh's company - HUGE multi-national - no new hires of non-degreed personnel (one of the big objections being that they can write code, but can't write documentation to save their lives because their business writing skills are atrocious - hoping that by forcing the "degree" on the younger generation, there is some chance they won't embarass the company on paper and in communications) - and no promotions to non-degreed personnel with less than 15 years experience - that's going to pinch the pool that writes great software, but didn't jump the degree hoop. I'm no fan because I HATE one-size-fits-all policies and believe management should have the right to evaluate each employee and job candidate on his/her individual merits, but multi-nationals are not known for exercising common sense or allowing managers to have options. :glare:

 

Unfortunately with the failure of several smaller computer consulting firms due to the economy, combined with the purchase of EDS by HP and the subsequent firing of many thousands of IT workers,plus offshoring, and what not, I think finding an employer in the computer industry with a healthier outlook on hiring practices will be difficult. GRRRRRR.......

 

If your husband has any say in his company's hiring practices, maybe he can help them see the error of their ways.

 

Faith

[justamouse]

This came across my fb feed on this article

 

The Higher Ed Bubble

 

Requiring college degrees for jobs that don’t call for that kind of education is a sign that America is over-investing in the wrong kinds of education. The end results are, as the Times reports, highly skewed unemployment figures: Those without a college degree face 8.1 percent unemployment versus 3.7 percent for those who finished a program.

 

While Via Meadia believes that a college education is a very valuable thing indeed, the solution here isn’t to ensure that everyone gets a college degree. Instead, we should be opening the door to more knowledge-based testing of potential new hires, and making it illegal to discriminate against people who don’t have degrees for jobs that really don’t require them. This would make for a fairer society and would let more young adults make their own informed choices.

[butterflymommy]

The people from the firm in the original article sounded to me like they wanted to assure themselves that they would only be surrounded by "PLUs," People Like Us. I suspect that requiring a four-year degree to answer phones is one way of doing that. The whole "our Christmas tree covered in college mascots" and slapping each other on the back during football season? Yeah, it's the post-millennial gold ole boy network; poor people need not apply.

 

I am possibly one of the most conservative Red Staters you will ever meet, and it smacks of that even to me.

 

Terri

 

I had a similar thought, that this is a roundabout way of avoiding hiring minorities, since a college degree/ education are one of the few factors you cannot be sued for "discriminating" over.

[stripe]

I had a similar thought, that this is a roundabout way of avoiding hiring minorities, since a college degree/ education are one of the few factors you cannot be sued for "discriminating" over.

The other one I've seen is insisting that applicants are currently employed; this is discriminating against all sorts of people who've been laid off and some of them can't find a job... And the longer they're out of work, the less likely it is they will be hired.

 

I know tons of people with good college degrees and plenty of experience who can't find very good work. I know a whole group who are working as janitors at a hospital. Luckily the pay is not too bad, so they left other positions for it.

[QueenCat]

 

I agree about the degree mills. I have more than one real life example of the questionable quality of the teachers at those sources.

 

I hate to see a degree become tainted to a oh-you-have-a-degree- wink-wink-nudge-nudge type of situation.

 

I'd really like ds to become more educated through college, not just do it to get a piece of paper.

 

So very true.... not all b & m schools, and not all online programs, are worthy. There are good and bad in both..... I remember doing the research 3-4 years ago, making sure I chose a quality, well respected, regionally accredited, online program. There was quite a bit of not-so-good to weed through. Granted, as I help my boys choose b&m schools, there are bad ones to weed put on the "no" list too.

[FaithManor]

 

 

In my area, these kids make it if they go in to a construction related business. Plumbing, bricklaying, paving, etc are all good income producers for a teen who can stay focused and build up his business.

 

Interesting. In my area, an 18 year old wouldn't have a chance of getting a job like that much less building up that kind of job. We've got a bazillion out-of-work people in the construction industry and many contractors went bankrupt. It is not an option for most kids in the midwest and flooding the areas that still have these jobs with a lot of 18 and 19 year olds will not be helpful because there will be more kids looking than there are jobs and no infrastructure to deal with them. Kind of like the rush to Nebraska or South Dakota or wherever it was recently that struck oil....WAY more people went than there were jobs available...people lived in tents, it was crazy.

 

So, it's great that this is available to high school graduates in your area, but it is not an option in the midwestern states since that industry has completely tanked.

 

Faith

[Bang!Zoom!]

This is the most depressing thread ever.