My cautionary tale

[Bluegoat]

I don't think the education bubble is just about cost - it is about the fact that people have to be grossly over-educated to compete for jobs that don't really require that kind of time spent in a university. Back in the 60's and 70's governments decided to try and send as many people as possible to university. So jobs that could have been filled by high school graduates needed undergraduate degrees, and now graduate degrees, and on and on. And at the same time, the quality of the university programs has been watered down, and the purpose of the university as a very specific kind of institution of research and learning has begun to disapear. And that function in society hasn't really been replaced either.

 

The universities themselves expanded to take in all of these new students, and now have to keep the numbers up to pay for all the facilities. They thought it was great back when they were getting all the money for the initial expantions - now they have to stuff the cheap to run arts progams full with hundreds of students to make money.

 

And it hasn't been great either for many of the programs that used to be taught elsewhere but are now part of the university. My mom graduated second in our province from nursing school around 1968. She lived in the nursing residence, got free room and board and $4 a week to spend. They studied really hard and worked like dogs in the hospitals keeping them spotless and learning to be absolutely rigorous about the basics of nursing care. They graduated with great skills and no debt, and the hospitals had a really good workforce from it as well. Now it is an undergraduate degree, which commands more respect and money, and the RNs are now managers and LPNs and so on do the practical work. But I know the old RNs say that the overall quality was better coming out of the nursing schools.

 

And I have heard very similar things from other kinds of trades that have been transferred to universities to administrate.

[rosesinsummer]

I understand wanting your kids to have the "college experience". But in your reality, I would be considering community college.

 

:iagree:

 

The "college experience" is also over-rated. Better to graduate with good financial footing than enjoy a "college experience" and have to eat ramen noodles for years to pay for the privilege of having had it. ;)

[Lang Syne Boardie]

I don't think the education bubble is just about cost - it is about the fact that people have to be grossly over-educated to compete for jobs that don't really require that kind of time spent in a university. Back in the 60's and 70's governments decided to try and send as many people as possible to university. So jobs that could have been filled by high school graduates needed undergraduate degrees, and now graduate degrees, and on and on. And at the same time, the quality of the university programs has been watered down, and the purpose of the university as a very specific kind of institution of research and learning has begun to disapear. And that function in society hasn't really been replaced either.

 

The universities themselves expanded to take in all of these new students, and now have to keep the numbers up to pay for all the facilities. They thought it was great back when they were getting all the money for the initial expantions - now they have to stuff the cheap to run arts progams full with hundreds of students to make money.

 

And it hasn't been great either for many of the programs that used to be taught elsewhere but are now part of the university. My mom graduated second in our province from nursing school around 1968. She lived in the nursing residence, got free room and board and $4 a week to spend. They studied really hard and worked like dogs in the hospitals keeping them spotless and learning to be absolutely rigorous about the basics of nursing care. They graduated with great skills and no debt, and the hospitals had a really good workforce from it as well. Now it is an undergraduate degree, which commands more respect and money, and the RNs are now managers and LPNs and so on do the practical work. But I know the old RNs say that the overall quality was better coming out of the nursing schools.

 

And I have heard very similar things from other kinds of trades that have been transferred to universities to administrate.

 

Thank you for this post!

 

What are possible solutions? And if the bubble 'bursts,' what will that look like?

[MFG]

I am SO glad that our youngest is graduating from college in May. Since 2001 we have had at least one and often two children in college each semester. Now we get to start picking up the pieces...

[rosesinsummer]

I don't think the education bubble is just about cost - it is about the fact that people have to be grossly over-educated to compete for jobs that don't really require that kind of time spent in a university. Back in the 60's and 70's governments decided to try and send as many people as possible to university. So jobs that could have been filled by high school graduates needed undergraduate degrees, and now graduate degrees, and on and on. And at the same time, the quality of the university programs has been watered down, and the purpose of the university as a very specific kind of institution of research and learning has begun to disapear. And that function in society hasn't really been replaced either.

 

The universities themselves expanded to take in all of these new students, and now have to keep the numbers up to pay for all the facilities. They thought it was great back when they were getting all the money for the initial expantions - now they have to stuff the cheap to run arts progams full with hundreds of students to make money.

 

And it hasn't been great either for many of the programs that used to be taught elsewhere but are now part of the university. My mom graduated second in our province from nursing school around 1968. She lived in the nursing residence, got free room and board and $4 a week to spend. They studied really hard and worked like dogs in the hospitals keeping them spotless and learning to be absolutely rigorous about the basics of nursing care. They graduated with great skills and no debt, and the hospitals had a really good workforce from it as well. Now it is an undergraduate degree, which commands more respect and money, and the RNs are now managers and LPNs and so on do the practical work. But I know the old RNs say that the overall quality was better coming out of the nursing schools.

 

And I have heard very similar things from other kinds of trades that have been transferred to universities to administrate.

 

:iagree: Particularly with your comments about the old school work while you study 3 year RN degree vs. BSN degree. Well said!

[kalanamak]

This is the route we chose. Could someone elaborate on the phrase "college experience"?

 

For me, it is exposure to good professors, interesting grad students as TAs, and some arts exposure. I grew up in a midwestern town with a huge land grant college, and between the vet school, the bull barns, the auditorium where I saw things like touring plays and musicians, etc, I had the junior version of what I call the college experience. I ended up going to a small state school, and I'm somewhat sorry I did.

[kalanamak]

 

I don't have a very "academic" kid. I'm not planning on any significant scholarships.

 

And I'll be retiring right around then .... ugh. This thread is giving me a tummy ache.

 

I have only three hopes to pin kiddo's future on: Washington State won't reneg on its GET program and kiddo won't be too rebellious of a teen, or that he's happy being an electrician or something like that. Luckily, GET can be used for trade school.

[kalanamak]

 

Even if I had all of the money in the world, that is just too much of a savings compared to going away to a 4 year school for the entire undergraduate degree for me to not take advantage of it.

 

I agree, and I'm even near a darned good cc, but "you can lead a boy to college but you cannot make him think."

[lauracolumbus]

It wasn't even a "trick" when I was college age. I was self-supporting and living in my own place at 20. From that time on, I could apply on my own, because I was an independent adult.

 

The trick is pretending that NO young adult is independent until after the age of 26, unless married, emancipated legally, or in the military. That's ridiculous. Some are completely on their own, though in this economy, many are not. They should not be penalized for this previously normal situation.

 

 

This is what happened to my niece. She lived on her own and tried to get aid. Her parents did not help her. She could not get any $$ b/c her parents made too much, despite her being on her own for a year. She only got aid (and lots of it) when she had a baby (unmarried). Not exactly the public policy I want our country pursuing.

 

Laura

[lauracolumbus]

I don't think the education bubble is just about cost - it is about the fact that people have to be grossly over-educated to compete for jobs that don't really require that kind of time spent in a university. Back in the 60's and 70's governments decided to try and send as many people as possible to university. So jobs that could have been filled by high school graduates needed undergraduate degrees, and now graduate degrees, and on and on. And at the same time, the quality of the university programs has been watered down, and the purpose of the university as a very specific kind of institution of research and learning has begun to disapear. And that function in society hasn't really been replaced either.

 

The universities themselves expanded to take in all of these new students, and now have to keep the numbers up to pay for all the facilities. They thought it was great back when they were getting all the money for the initial expantions - now they have to stuff the cheap to run arts progams full with hundreds of students to make money.

 

And it hasn't been great either for many of the programs that used to be taught elsewhere but are now part of the university. My mom graduated second in our province from nursing school around 1968. She lived in the nursing residence, got free room and board and $4 a week to spend. They studied really hard and worked like dogs in the hospitals keeping them spotless and learning to be absolutely rigorous about the basics of nursing care. They graduated with great skills and no debt, and the hospitals had a really good workforce from it as well. Now it is an undergraduate degree, which commands more respect and money, and the RNs are now managers and LPNs and so on do the practical work. But I know the old RNs say that the overall quality was better coming out of the nursing schools.

 

And I have heard very similar things from other kinds of trades that have been transferred to universities to administrate.

 

I agree. And my mom was also that RN. And amazingly enough, my SIL (from the above post) makes almost 100k as a private home care as an LPN. My niece is switching her major to nursing in hopes of duplicating her mother's experience--which of course will be nearly impossible (at least I hope that LPNs routinely do not make that kind of $$ as it's mostly tax dollars).

 

Laura

[Bluegoat]

Thank you for this post!

 

What are possible solutions? And if the bubble 'bursts,' what will that look like?

 

I wonder if it will just be that fewer and fewer people will be getting university degrees in the US? If that happens I guess that employers could import some people, but in general they are just going to have to accept applicants with different sorts of qualifications, and maybe look at doing more mentoring or on the job training in some cases.

 

How professional programs will deal with it could be interesting. We need doctors and nurses, but if it is too expensive people just won't be going through those programs. I don't know how hard it would be to change the way they work to make them less expensive. It might be hard to go back to the old style of nursing program or Normal Schools for teachers.

 

I think it could be really devastating for the universities though. They have too much infrastructure, there will be a ton of good scholars - the young ones mostly - that would have to look for another line of work. On the other hand, whatever comes out of it might have a real sense of purpose as an institution dedicated to the study of truth, and there are a lot of crummy scholars who could be gotten rid of as well.

 

It would be really nice if a renewed respect for trades and working with hands and entrepreneurship and self-education and farming/fishing/forestry and those kinds of things came out of it.

 

I think that a problem might be that a number of countries outside the US are in better shape overall without the bloated university system you guys have. We are slightly better off I think but not a lot. But it could be hard to compete against those countries that have things in better order to deal with that kind of bubble burst, or that don't really have a bubble.

[DawnM]

Our policy is and has always been that we will pay for any of the local public 4 year colleges and living at home. The most expensive one in the area (and one I would encourage them to attend if possible) is currently $10K tuition per year with fees and such. We can afford that. If they start with CC or go to a school with lower tuition, even better.

 

They are free to go anywhere else they choose, but they will need to cover the difference.

 

This is subject to change should we run into more $$ or should they go into a field that requires something further away, but for now, we are standing by this.

 

90% of the jobs out there will not require a "name school." Should my children show exception to this and fall into the 10%, we will reconsider.

 

Dawn

[Sneezyone]

Between military tuition assistance and my income, DH only had to use 4-6 months of his total GI Bill eligibility to complete his BA and MA degrees. DS and DD will split his remaining 30+/- months. Guestimating 9 month school years, This will allow each of them to have almost two years of college (including living expenses and books) covered for pretty much any in-state school and a good many private ones.

 

I also started putting money aside in a prepaid tuition account before we ever had children or ever thought of having children (for DH and I to use ourselves!). We're now adding to what's left of that stash so by the time DD and DS complete middle school, they will have 2, possibly 3 additional years of prepaid tuition and fees. We just got notice that tuition at the state's flagships will increase 18% or more next year too so I'm glad we have this measure of protection!! It's scary thinking about 15% or more year over year increases!

 

Having a lot of student loan debt myself, I've thought long and hard about how to prevent my kiddos from being in the same position while also allowing them to have the out of state experience that I had (and DH wishes he had). This is the best solution we could come up with. We'll certainly encourage the kids to apply for scholarships (especially the small ones which add up over time) but we're not couting on anything other than what we save.

Edited April 19, 2012 by Sneezyone

[Haiku]

We told our dd17 that we can pay for her first two years of school at the community college, but she has her heart set on "going away" to school. We said, "Fine. We'll give you the same amount that we would pay at the cc, and you can make up the rest however you can."

 

I am not going to spend the rest of my life in debt because my children want to "go away" to school. No way. Maybe I am mean, cold-hearted, unsympathetic, or anti-intellectual, but it's my life, too, and I have post-kid plans that don't include spending the rest of my life paying for my kids' college. They'll go where they can afford to go. Period.

 

In my wildest dreams I couldn't afford to pay $13,000 (what the OP mentioned she will be paying) a year for my kid to go to college. It's not even a consideration. I'd have to put the younger two in school and work full time. No way.

 

Tara

[lauracolumbus]

My ds was also NMS, 2200+ SATs, multiple college classes at three different colleges, almost straight A's, a year abroad. We thought he had quite good credentials. He was rejected at both reaches, wait listed at both schools we thought he'd likely get into, and accepted at both safeties, one with significant aid. The aid he got no where near approaches the cost of school. We are fortunate to have savings and enough income to pay the difference.

 

It still stings that he was not accepted at the university where my dh and I have both worked for 22 years, where he successfully took a class, and where, by the numbers, he would have been in the top quarter of their class. I can only assume his essay, which I thought was "average" or his LORs did it.

 

Wow. Just wow. So it's not mostly test scores. It is EVERYTHING. Where are all these perfect kids coming from?

 

Laura

[cathmom]

We are an hour from LSU. I would much rather foot the bill for my son's gas a few days/week than pay 10k for him to live on campus.

 

I was always in favor of commuting (I did it), and there are several schools within an hour of our house. But when oldest ds graduated from high school in 2008, gas was going over $4 a gallon with no end in sight, small used cars cost a fortune (because everyone wanted ones that didn't use a lot of gas) and parking at schools is difficult and expensive, not to mention wear and tear on the car and repair bills. Plus, I don't really think it's the best use of time.

 

:iagree:

 

 

One needs to look for colleges where the student is into the top 25% of students applying, but not so top that they are bored and not challenged. Then, make sure the school offers merit aid - not all do.

 

My son did this - he went to the school that offered him a full scholarship. He was bored, he was miserable, he transferred as soon as possible.

 

 

 

I disagree with this. In spite of costs, most colleges are seeing increases in applications, not decreases. Some of that is coming from international students. Five of the six colleges middle son applied to this year had increases in applications - more than ever before in history if their letters and stats are to be believed. Acceptance rates were down.

 

 

 

I think that a large part of this is that many students apply to a lot of places because they have no idea if they'll get in or not.

 

We're Canadian and have a good in-city school. I paid 9K/year for law school (graduated 2008). And I finished my honours BA in three and an half years, as did my husband. More than four is not acceptable to me.

 

Many students do not graduate in four years THROUGH NO FAULT of their own. Colleges are making it difficult to get required courses. What is their incentive to do so???? If you stick around another year, they can charge you another $25K.

 

If it is like the universities here, they decided to do the overhauls and add the extremely large athletic complex for the kids shortly after the large government subsidization started. Quite strangely, the tuition almost immediately increased a startlingly similar amount to what the government had kicked in. Hey, they parents were used to putting that amount in anyway. The surplus went to starting improvements. Then, the economy crashed. Oops, we need more $ to continue down the road we started. increase more. That is oversimplified, but basically what happened here. Now, the kids are going to a beautiful school with amenities they will never be able to afford when they graduate. (Exactly why do these kids need a fitness facility that is much nicer than any other available in the large city? Why do they need gardens with waterfalls alongside the sidewalks and patios?)

 

A state school near us is redoing the building with the food court. They are ripping out a perfectly good staircase and putting in a glass staircase near the doors because now "the students have to walk 100 feet into the building to get to the other one" - but, let's ignore the fact that they will still have to walk the 100 feet UPSTAIRS now!!!! They fired professors (see my above comment about not being able to finish in 4 years) while adding dorms ($$$) and new fancy gyms ($$$$ in fees)

 

 

For a high performer, apply to some 100% needs met schools. If your EFC is low, they will give you everything you need. My dd will be going to a small needs met school in the fall, the tuition is lower than we dreamed possible. She iss a very unique child with hundreds of hours of very specific extra curriculars, looking for a degree in a very specific (and rare) major. One top tier school put her on the waitlist, but the second - looking for unique individuals - wanted her. This is her dream school, with excellent lab facilities and opportunities. Yes, some of it was luck, but we also worked very hard to present her at her best, and I think that paid off.

 

 

 

Our EFC is $0. Has been every year. Initially ds got a full scholarship. Then the state took away a low income grant the second year and gave him a loan instead. He figured since he wasn't happy there and it wasn't free anymore he might as well transfer. He found a similar deal but somehow now he has loans and we have loans, which we never counted on. An EFC of 0 doesn't mean much when the financial aid office says "We need this covered or your dc, who is so close to graduating he can taste it, can't finish his degree."

 

I think we must be really lucky. I also think this is one time when being lower income is a good thing. Dd is planning to attend an out of state university. She received a scholarship for most of the out of state tuition ($11,000-12,000 per year) and with grants and all she will have to borrow around $7000 per year and work at a work study job. We are not in a position to give her anything except some spending money. She will be a broke college student!

 

She is an above average but not stellar student and she could have attended our state U for free after scholarships and grants. Her scholarships were over $6000. I wanted her to go there, but no school in Idaho has either of her intended majors and she didn't want to change her dreams.

 

At both schools she was awarded over $5500 in grants and our EFC is $0.

 

See the above. This is how we started almost 4 years ago. Now he has loans and we have loans.

[orangearrow]

This thread is giving me a tummy ache.

 

 

 

me too. :001_huh: :ack2: :bored:

[Rosy]

I only read a couple pages, I may go back and read the rest later. Tuition at state colleges in WA is $7-10k. Even if you add in living on campus, it is still cheaper than what some of you are talking about paying after scholarship and financial aid. Is WA an anomaly, or are we turning up our noses at state schools? WA has some excellent state schools, so I guess I should be grateful!

[Deb in NZ]

Amazingly, in other developed countries, university is considered part of the public schooling package, and is close to free. What a concept.

 

Here in NZ, university isn't part of the public schooling package & isn't free, but tertiary education (university, polytech, etc.) isn't anywhere near as expensive as the prices I see quoted for American universities.

 

Education, in general, is very different here. Highschool is 3-5 years long. Even for those who choose to leave after 3 years, tertiary education is possible. There are many paths to university, not just directly after finishing year 13 at PS. Tertiary education here seems to be more about gaining the skills & qualifications you need to succeed in your chosen career and less about "finding yourself." I don't know of any students who are in uni with undeclared majors & am not sure that that is even possible as uni does not include any general education courses. All the papers (courses) are requirements for your chosen major. Many polytechs have programs in which you do 2 years through the polytech for a diploma (like an associates degree) & have the option of doing a 3rd year to earn your bachelors degree through a cooperating university. Some programs are set up in which year 1 = a certificate, year 2 = a diploma, & year 3 = a degree. This is great for people who don't have the money to do all three years at once &/or don't want to take out big loans.

 

Dd has chosen to go the polytech to uni route and is very happy with the results. She has more practical qualifications & less in loans than she would have had doing all three years at university. By the time she graduates the end of this year, she will have a student loan of about $20k. With dh losing his job six months after dd began we have been unable to help out at all with her tuition, but it has been a mixed blessing as our un/under employment has meant that dd has recieved the maximum student allowance (grant) from the gov't that covers her living costs if she is careful.

 

Ds#1 has chosen to go the apprenticeship route to gaining qualifications. If he later decides he wants a degree, he will have already have covered 1-2 years of his degree requirements.

 

A friend of his has a civil engineering cadetship in which he works for a company & as part of his contract he gets his education paid for. He'll end up with a diploma in civil engineering + 8 years of experience + full pay when he finishes his cadetship. He can choose to do the 3rd year of study to earn his degree.

 

For those students who don't qualify for student allowance because their parents earn too much, university can cost as much as $16k-20k / year including living cost. But when you take into consideration that a bachelors degree is only 3 years, the cost of university is still much cheaper than that in the States.

[SunnyDays]

I attended a small liberal arts private school, and graduated about 15 years ago. When I left college, it was about $16K per year for tuition, room, and board. Now the same school costs approximately $37K per year for the same. It's unbelievable. And now our nearby state school is about the same as I paid at a private school.

 

DS is only 9... old enough that we should have started saving more long ago (he has a small account but nothing substantial), and young enough that the whole system might look different by the time we're firming up his plans.

 

Before DS came along, I managed a customer service team at an insurance company. (Using my "practical" business degree, LOL.) They wanted me to hire policy processors WITH college degrees , for a crazy low amount. Imagine their surprise when I just couldn't find good candidates. :glare:

 

My son is bright, and loves math and science... he could really pursue any path he wants. But in some ways... it wouldn't bother me a bit if he decided he wanted to become an electrician, or a carpenter, or some other skilled trade line of work. Heresy, I know. But, it's good honest work that can't be outsourced.

 

The jobs which now suddenly require a college degree... it just boggles my mind. Plenty of people in prior generations were able to leave high school, and get an entry level job that would lead to a middle-class career.

[momtotkbb]

I only read a couple pages, I may go back and read the rest later. Tuition at state colleges in WA is $7-10k. Even if you add in living on campus, it is still cheaper than what some of you are talking about paying after scholarship and financial aid. Is WA an anomaly, or are we turning up our noses at state schools? WA has some excellent state schools, so I guess I should be grateful!

 

Where we are our two largest in-state univ are about $23000/year for in-state tuition, Room and board and est for books. Our oldest graduated last May and we were paying about $14000 for tuition, fees, books since he lived off campus.

[Sneezyone]

I only read a couple pages, I may go back and read the rest later. Tuition at state colleges in WA is $7-10k. Even if you add in living on campus, it is still cheaper than what some of you are talking about paying after scholarship and financial aid. Is WA an anomaly, or are we turning up our noses at state schools? WA has some excellent state schools, so I guess I should be grateful!

 

I used to work at the state higher ed office in OLY. When I started at HECB in 1999, GET units were $36-39 a unit and the payout value was $30-33 a unit. Today, one unit is $163 and the payout value is $103. When I started, UW and WSU had to apply to HECB to increase tuition. The regents were complaining and wanted more authority to control prices since the leg. was cutting their funding. Today, these schools have the authority to set their own tuition and fees (a high need, high aid model similar to private schools) and the leg is still cutting funding. HECB projects tuition at these two institutions to increase 18% next year alone.

 

I told my family members, any who would listen anyway to a 20-something recent grad, that GET was better than the stock market as an investment vehicle. Any available money that I had, no matter how small, I put in GET (I only wish I'd had more at the time). I just didn't know how right I was. Tuition is still increasing by an avg. 10% a year in this state with no end in sight. The state isn't fully funding K-12 let alone scrounging for higher ed. More increases are on the horizon. Look for WA costs to mirror CA.

 

ETA: there are even states considering charging a premium to allow priority access to hard to get classes (ergo only students with addl. funds above and beyond regular tuition will be able to graduate in four years).

Edited April 19, 2012 by Sneezyone

[Shellers]

When my DD21 graduated from high school, she wanted to go to a four year school. She didn't qualify for financial aid and we don't have the money to help her out. My college package to her was free room and board. She ended up going to a very crowded community college. The college is so crowded, it's hard to get classes. This Spring (2013) she was hoping to finally transfer over to a state college, but the college is closed to transfer students. The girl can't get a break.

[mamakelly]

Between military tuition assistance and my income, DH only had to use 4-6 months of his total GI Bill eligibility to complete his BA and MA degrees.

 

I was wondering if anyone had gone the military to pay for college route. DH and I have always felt like military service would be a good way for our children to be able to "afford" to go to college.

[Sneezyone]

I was wondering if anyone had gone the military to pay for college route. DH and I have always felt like military service would be a good way for our children to be able to "afford" to ...[/Quote]

When they made GI Bill bennies transferable that was huge for us. The amount DH and I were saving for future kids was spent on DH when we realized his bennies were worth more than he could get on active duty. DS and DD will not only get tuition and fees but also E5 living expense money. It is more generous than it used to be, especially if you do the top up college fund kicker like DH did. There is also ROTC to consider.

[Sneezyone]

When my DD21 graduated from high school, she wanted to go to a four year school. She didn't qualify for financial aid and we don't have the money to help her out. My college package to her was free room and board. She ended up going to a very crowded community college. The college is so crowded, it's hard to get classes. This Spring (2013) she was hoping to finally transfer over to a state college, but the college is closed to transfer students. The girl can't get a break.

 

This is an important point. Transfer admissions can be very competitive too. I know my alma mater cut back on transfers preferring to grow their own upperclassmen. There was some concern about the ability of community college transfers to perform at the same level as freshman admits. This may be less of an issue at public schools? Not sure...

[creekland]

My ds was also NMS, 2200+ SATs, multiple college classes at three different colleges, almost straight A's, a year abroad. We thought he had quite good credentials. He was rejected at both reaches, wait listed at both schools we thought he'd likely get into, and accepted at both safeties, one with significant aid.

 

For anyone who has a student who has high stats like this might I suggest using the University of Alabama's Honors College as a safety school? They offer free rides (you pay NOTHING, not even room and board) if your student makes NMF. If they have high stats without making NMF (like my guy), then they offer free tuition. With slightly lesser stats, they have other merit aid.

 

We used them as a safety and my guy would have been happy to go there had they been his best financial option. However, in his case, both the University of Pittsburgh and the University of Rochester gave him equal finances. He's chosen the University of Rochester as he feels he fits in there the best. Considering URoc is ranked #35 (out of some 3000+ colleges), they're no slouch of a school. UA is ranked in the 70's - and generally moving up in the rankings with their awesome guaranteed (not competitive) merit aid.

 

There are other schools who offer really good aid for high stat kids - then there are schools that offer nothing. If finances matter, do research and choose carefully.

 

For those who are truly lower income (<50,000) there are schools who do decently with meeting need if your student can get in (don't need to be a NMF). You can't be anti-loan as most schools want the student to have some skin in the game, but the loans are generally just the basic federal types ($5500, $6500, $7500 per year) making the debt at graduation in the $20,000 range. If they choose their major carefully and do well in school, that's not too much of an investment IMO.

[Catherine]

What's funny is, he IS an athlete. He was a state-ranked swimmer until he quit at the end of sophomore year. So maybe that doesn't count. And he's a violinist in a competitive regional orchestra. Hmmm-just how bad could his LORs have been?

[Hoggirl]

Wow. Just wow. So it's not mostly test scores. It is EVERYTHING. Where are all these perfect kids coming from?

 

Laura

 

If you want to see all these perfect kids, go look around on College Confidential. Check out some of the Early Decision and Regular Decision threads on accepted and rejected students. On paper (or perhaps I should say, "on screen,"), it is often difficult to discern much difference. The reality is that top schools...probably the top twenty...have enough qualified applicants to fill their spots three times over with equally qualified kids. It is a total cr@p shoot at the top. Throw in filling spots for athletes, URMs, kids of legacies (though this is dwindling in importance at some places), and you can see why it is so competitive. In fact, I have wondered at what number in the rankings one can count on relying on your objective stats alone. (ETA: Okay, I just posted this question on the Parents' forum at CC).

 

Baylor University is another school (like Alabama suggested by Creekland) that offers good merit aid solely based on stats. Their website has a straightforward plug and chug calculator to see exactly what you qualify for. It is ranked similarly to Alabama.

Edited April 19, 2012 by Hoggirl

[mom31257]

:lurk5: I think my coffee mug and I are going to need to spend a lot of time here!

[Laura Corin]

The reality is that top schools...probably the top twenty...have enough qualified applicants to fill their spots three times over with equally qualified kids.

 

All their applicants have top marks, so they interview to find those who would benefit from the Oxbridge style and also (they admit) those whom the lecturers would enjoy teaching.

 

Laura

[Hoggirl]

All their applicants have top marks, so they interview to find those who would benefit from the Oxbridge style and also (they admit) those whom the lecturers would enjoy teaching.

 

Laura

 

How many students are interviewed each year? That seems burdensome, albeit effective.

[kalanamak]

I used to work at the state higher ed office in OLY. When I started at HECB in 1999, GET units were $36-39 a unit and the payout value was $30-33 a unit. Today, one unit is $163 and the payout value is $103.

 

I told my family members, any who would listen anyway to a 20-something recent grad, that GET was better than the stock market as an investment vehicle. Any available money that I had, no matter how small, I put in GET (I only wish I'd had more at the time). I just didn't know how right I was.

 

Yeah, who knows if the current prices will pay off, but I sure as shooting knew, some years back, that the deal was was very sweet. I think there are enough participants now that if the legislature decided not to keep its promise, there would be a lawsuit. (There is some talk of snaking around it by having the schools charge more "non-tuition" charges, and those wouldn't be included in the GETs value.)

 

But that really sweet price back then was a product of the "we're doing so well, we can never fail" mentality of just a decade ago.

 

Speaking of 529, I am amazed at the number of people who start these when the kid is 16. Shouldn't these be more long term investments?

[elegantlion]

This thread has me very depressed. Our live at home options are a state school that doesn't offer a program ds wants, a CC an hour away that is crowded and would probably drive ds out of the desire for a college education, or a junior college I just discovered has a branch in our town, but classes are held in the high school and might be good for dual enrollment.

 

I would suggest this book, How to be a High School Superstar. I plan on having ds read it this summer. It's not a magic bullet, but it offers some options to numerous APs.

[Laura Corin]

How many students are interviewed each year? That seems burdensome, albeit effective.

 

They interview about 12,000, then they make conditional offers (dependent on the outcomes of their exams) to about 4,000. In the end, something over three thousand get in. Here's a chart. The interviews are not done centrally, but in the individual colleges that make up the university, so it's not one enormous admissions team - rather, you are interviewed by the people who would be tutoring you at the college you apply to.

 

I assume that Oxford is similar. As a Brit, one is not allowed to apply to both Oxford and Cambridge, so that cuts down a little on the burden.

 

Laura

[Laura in CA]

They interview about 12,000, then they make conditional offers (dependent on the outcomes of their exams) to about 4,000. In the end, something over three thousand get in. Here's a chart. The interviews are not done centrally, but in the individual colleges that make up the university, so it's not one enormous admissions team - rather, you are interviewed by the people who would be tutoring you at the college you apply to.

 

And the interviews are notorious for putting the kids 'on the spot', and can also include questions about academic work by the candidate submitted in advance. As Laura says, they want to see how the kid's mind works & if they'd enjoy tutoring him or her. In contrast, the pro forma 'interviews' conducted by most Ivy League colleges are pretty much 'chats with a nostalgic alum' ... Google Oxbridge interview for more info -- fascinating!

 

I assume that Oxford is similar. As a Brit, one is not allowed to apply to both Oxford and Cambridge, so that cuts down a little on the burden.

 

 

This is a great idea, but I'm not sure it would work here ...

[Barbara H]

There are so many important ideas shared on this thread, but I'd hate for the take away for parents, especially parents of younger kids, is that there is no hope and it is all doom and gloom. Many of the strategies shared here are good and do work for a lot of people. Yes, you need to plan for your specific kid and do your own research, but I saw several ideas mentioned here that I have seen used successfully including:

 

 

• Applying strategically to schools where your child will be at the top of the applicant pool.
  
• Look at percent of financial need met by potential schools.
  
• Save money early.
  
• Taking test prep seriously - recognize it weighs more heavily for homeschoolers.
  
• Earning credits through dual enrollment, CLEP, AP.
  
• Lowering costs by living at home.
  
• ROTC or military service
  
• Two years at community college.
  

 

There is no one size fits all. There are many situations which these approaches won't work, but there are many other students who are using them successfully. I am just concerned that people are going to read this and thing forget about it - we are sunk. This doesn't encourage the research and planning that will allow you to maximize the options you do have.

Edited April 19, 2012 by Barbara H

[Jane in NC]

There are so many important ideas shared on this thread, but I'd hate for the take away for parents, especially parents of younger kids, is that there is no hope and it is all doom and gloom. Many of the strategies shared here are good and do work for a lot of people. Yes, you need to plan for your specific kid and do your own research, but I saw several ideas mentioned here that I have seen used successfully including:

 

 

• Applying strategically to schools where your child will be at the top of the applicant pool.
  
• Look at percent of financial need met by potential schools.
  
• Save money early.
  
• Taking test prep seriously - recognize it weighs more heavily for homeschoolers.
  
• Earning credits through dual enrollment, CLEP, AP.
  
• Lowering costs by living at home.
  
• ROTC or military service
  
• Two years at community college.
  

 

There is no one size fits all. There are many situations which these approaches won't work, but there are many other students who are using them successfully. I am just concerned that people are going to read this and thing forget about it - we are sunk. This doesn't encourage the research and planning that will allow you to maximize the options you do have.

 

Excellent post. Do not lose hope!

 

May I also add that I think homeschoolers can give themselves an advantage in the college app process and in scholarship competitions. Our high schoolers often have the opportunity to cultivate passions--they don't look like those cookie cutter applicants. I am not diminishing the need for high test scores or solid academics. But I am suggesting that interesting projects and volunteer work can help our kids shine.

[Laura Corin]

This is a great idea, but I'm not sure it would work here ...

 

They are administered centrally and the software won't allow you to put down both Oxford and Cambridge.

 

Laura

[Barbara H]

 

May I also add that I think homeschoolers can give themselves an advantage in the college app process and in scholarship competitions. Our high schoolers often have the opportunity to cultivate passions--they don't look like those cookie cutter applicants. I am not diminishing the need for high test scores or solid academics. But I am suggesting that interesting projects and volunteer work can help our kids shine.

 

I agree. Homeschoolers have a lot of freedom and flexibility and this is an advantage. Look at your kids strengths and support them as they find unique ways to develop those talents.

 

Work experience can be important too. Think about it.... if were a middle class admissions officer at a selective school and you read application after application from kids who have been born with the silver spoon... and then you read the application from the kid who spent 20 hours a week through high school volunteering or working in a nursing home. You are going to be thinking - wow, here's a kid with a whole different set of life experiences. If the kids have similar test scores and applications, but one kid has a real meaningful commitment like this, absolutely that could be the deciding factor.

[SueinNC]

....

Speaking of 529, I am amazed at the number of people who start these when the kid is 16. Shouldn't these be more long term investments?

 

We started late (last year)-dd is now 11. I picked two that Clark Howard highly recommended. Started each with $1000 and added $200 monthly. Within 12 months each was valued less than half of what we have sunk into them. :glare: I cut back and now contribute $25 each. I would have been better off to stuff the mattress. I may just stop both altogether.

[Plucky]

I only read a couple pages, I may go back and read the rest later. Tuition at state colleges in WA is $7-10k. Even if you add in living on campus, it is still cheaper than what some of you are talking about paying after scholarship and financial aid. Is WA an anomaly, or are we turning up our noses at state schools? WA has some excellent state schools, so I guess I should be grateful!

 

Those are 2011 rates. UW went up from 10k to 12K+ this year. From what I understand most of the state universities here this year will be going up substantially.

[Trish]

We are planning on having every paycheck I earn going towards this debt. We will be living off of my husband's paycheck. So much for all those years thinking they would be paying their own way and we would be saving for retirement.

 

But what choice is there?

 

I am wondering also -- with the glut of unemployed college grads, maybe it makes sense to steer them toward a profession in which they can make a living. Something practical. I just say that because (anecdotally) my brother's big accounting firm in NYC is firing people left and right and shipping most of the mid-level accounting jobs to India. To some degree I have heard (also anecdotally) they are doing similar with lawyers (i.e. the work that you can do in the office obviously not the trial stuff), information systems, etc. etc.

 

I don't know what is practical in this rapidly transforming age. Something that takes skill and CANNOT be done in India. Something people have to have here. That's a new thread.

[Danestress]

that an increasing percent of college students these days are older adults with children, jobs, etc. This changes the statistics with respect to how long it takes to graduate, because there is a real difference between being an 18 - 22 year old with college as your full time "job" and parents who help vs. being a parent yourself trying to get that degree.

 

Even so, many many students are having to do summer school or an extra semester, partly because they change majors. My son graduated in four years + an extra summer school. This was his fault because he took too few hours a couple of semesters, and we had told him he would have to pay for anything over 4 year. He did and it hurt!

 

In any case, most of us who are trying to fund our childrens' college don't really have to budget for six years. I think the more we expect them to work, though, the tougher it will be for them to finish "on time."

[RoundAbout]

I was wondering if anyone had gone the military to pay for college route. DH and I have always felt like military service would be a good way for our children to be able to "afford" to go to college.

 

The GI Bill is extremely generous now. It pays full in-state tuition at any public school in your state + a housing allowance. Additionally there is something called the Yellow Ribbon program where the GI Bill will match private schools dollar for dollar any tuition reduction they provide. I also believe military service means you are financially independent from your parents for aid purposes.

 

The military is not for everyone, but four years of college for four years of service is a good deal if a young person is inclined to serve.

[JennW in SoCal]

Excellent post. Do not lose hope!

 

 

 

I would like to add a book recommendation to Barbara's and Jane's helpful comments. Paying for College Without Going Broke explains the entire financial aid process, describes the different kinds of loans and gives excellent tips on how to prepare whether you are starting to plan for college financing early or late.

 

It was a shock last year, when we had started visiting colleges, to realize that some schools -- even private -- do NOT offer merit aid. I learned to scour the financial aid section of college web sites first, before looking at the admissions page or at their majors.

 

On the parent's board at College Confidential there is a stickied thread worth reading, Schools Known for Good Merit Aid. It is a long thread, with the earlier pages now 7 years old, but the later pages are current.

 

Also, this may have been mentioned or linked earlier in this thread, but I used College Navigator to research the stats of the incoming classes to different schools, to figure out whether my son's ACT scores were in the middle or upper percentile. Sure enough, he got the most aid from the school where he was in the top 25%.

[*lifeoftheparty*]

.

[melissel]

Wow. Just wow. So it's not mostly test scores. It is EVERYTHING. Where are all these perfect kids coming from?

 

This is what I am wondering :(

 

We started late (last year)-dd is now 11. I picked two that Clark Howard highly recommended. Started each with $1000 and added $200 monthly. Within 12 months each was valued less than half of what we have sunk into them. :glare: I cut back and now contribute $25 each. I would have been better off to stuff the mattress. I may just stop both altogether.

 

:banghead: I said the exact same thing to a friend yesterday! We started our 529 when DD9 was 3, and it's worth exactly what we've contributed to it over the years. (I guess I should consider myself lucky, in that case!). I've been thinking about finding out how to transfer it somewhere else where it might perform better, but I have no idea where that might be. Apparently, it really IS my mattress!!!

 

Oh, I'm so frustrated by this whole thread. I don't have a very high opinion of the CC classes around here based on a few my experiences. I've taken a few myself (ridiculously easy, almost not worth the time), and when I was 16, I attended math classes with my boyfriend at the time so that I could explain them to him. And I did! I basically tutored him through those classes. That does not impress me.

 

I have no idea what we'll do, but I do know that I'm about to kick up our contributions to the girls' college funds (not that they're particularly substantial at the moment anyway *sigh*).

Edited April 19, 2012 by melissel

[melissel]

Also, does anyone in Georgia know if they still do the HOPE scholarship ?? They use funds from the lottery to pay for it. All you have to do is be a resident of GA and graduate high school with a 3.0 GPA or higher. You also have to keep that 3.0 GPA while in college. I have no idea what I got in monetary terms... but I went to GA State in 2000 and it was free. My parents just had to pay room and board. I'm pretty sure as long as you go to a public university, it's free with the HOPE scholarship; someone can correct me if I'm wrong. I had to do most of the leg work for my college paperwork.... and for us, paying for it was a non-issue b/c of the HOPE.

 

I know that two of my cousins just graduated from state unis in GA and paid no tuition there thanks to whatever state program is in effect. They're both going on to grad programs with additional full rides (Villanova and somewhere else) with their eyes on eventual Ph.Ds.

[Barbara H]

 

Also, does anyone in Georgia know if they still do the HOPE scholarship ?? They use funds from the lottery to pay for it. All you have to do is be a resident of GA and graduate high school with a 3.0 GPA or higher. You also have to keep that 3.0 GPA while in college. I have no idea what I got in monetary terms... but I went to GA State in 2000 and it was free. My parents just had to pay room and board. I'm pretty sure as long as you go to a public university, it's free with the HOPE scholarship; someone can correct me if I'm wrong. I had to do most of the leg work for my college paperwork.... and for us, paying for it was a non-issue b/c of the HOPE.

 

HOPE does still exist though there have been some changes and decreases. Also homeschooled students need to plan carefully. They either need to work with an accrediting agency during high school, or wait to get a good GPA in college for a year first. https://secure.gacollege411.org/