My cautionary tale

[Scarlett]

 

I don't know. I'm sure that many parents willingly sacrifice to ensure that their children have a good life. Parenting, sort of by definition, means making sacrifices for one's children. One oughtn't to be foolish, of course, but given a choice between living with my child in my old age because I gave him the means to support himself and his family well, and supporting myself in my old age having left my child to struggle through life, I think perhaps the first choice might be better for everyone involved. This is probably a matter of family culture, though. Some families seem to be more interdependent than others.

 

Nan

 

What if your child didn't want you to live with them in your old age?

[Nan in Mass]

That would be very sad. But what if they die? Or what if there is a deep recession and all the parents' savings vanish? Many unforeseen things happen. I think we just have to do the best we can to make the decisions that will let us live with ourselves and leave the rest. So far, my children have said I am welcome to live with them. We have said they were welcome to live with us as long as they wish and we have been willing to have our parents live with us. Hmm... Thinking about this, I begin to see that some of this might depend on having a famly culture that is comfortable with adult children living at home (whether they are taking care of their parents or just enjoying continuing family life). In a family culture that expects children to move out and live independently when they are 18, the reverse (old people moving back in) might be less desirable as well.? I don't know. It is not unusual in my area for adult children to continue to live at home or for the elderly to move back in with their children or have a grandchild living with them so I am just guessing. I think there are probably as many family cultures as there are families!

 

Nan

 

Nan

[Trilliums]

I know the subject of adult children living at home has come up before.

 

After DH and I married, we lived with my dad while we both finished up graduate school. I think we were lucky to have such an offer and I would be happy to be able to offer the same to my kids.

 

On the other hand, I have a sibling who has made nothing but a series of bad choices and taken advantage of many other family members. Said sibling is no longer welcome to even spend the night at my dad's house, although the grand kids are welcome. Just mentioning this to stress that our family does have limits; adult children are offered generous help as long as they are working toward goals of independence. They are not welcome to free load.

[sandellie4]

so forgive me if I am repeating things.

 

First of all, test scores are super important, so pay the money for a test prep class. It will make a difference.

 

Second, have your child apply to schools where their scores and grades are in the top 25th percentile - or higher. We did this with my sons and they had merit aid offered at EVERY school. Going to community college for 2 years might not end up cheaper in the long run, because you very rarely get any merit aid as a transfer.

 

Third, research college essays, there is a correct way to write them and it is not that hard to do. There are multiple books dedicated to this and online sites as well. A good essay could really make a difference.

 

Another make or break item is extra curriculars, start keeping track freshman year, count hours, make sure there is volunteer work, sports, interning - and if your child has a specific interest, try to assemble all these activities around it. Passion is the word of the day.

 

The application process is important, research the way each school wants things done - apply the way they prefer, if they offer more than one option.

And put together a really nice looking transcript (not that anybody here wouldn't)

 

For a high performer, apply to some 100% needs met schools. If your EFC is low, they will give you everything you need. My dd will be going to a small needs met school in the fall, the tuition is lower than we dreamed possible. She iss a very unique child with hundreds of hours of very specific extra curriculars, looking for a degree in a very specific (and rare) major. One top tier school put her on the waitlist, but the second - looking for unique individuals - wanted her. This is her dream school, with excellent lab facilities and opportunities. Yes, some of it was luck, but we also worked very hard to present her at her best, and I think that paid off.

 

Spend time, lots of time, on College Confidential - especially on the Financial Aid forum. I learned sooo much there, and was prepared in advance for anything that might have happened. Yes, it can be a bit snobby, but get past that and learn everything you can.

 

Education is very big in my family - if any of my kids had had a passion for a trade I would have blessed them to go off and learn it, but they all have different desires, and I have no qualms about scrimping to help them get there.

 

I could have written this post myself. Our first kid in college is attending a 100% needs met school. Every moment spent preparing and lurking on College Confidential is worth it. We have a lower EFC, so everything is covered. We basically pay what we'd pay if she were home and we had to feed and clothe her.

 

One tip (I'm not finished with all the posts yet, so please forgive me if I'm repeating): Pay attention to "base year" information. A friend of mine whose daughter is at the same school will be borrowing more than $100,000 over the four years. She and her husband sold their business during the base year, which inflated their means. Every year she reapplies for financial aid reconsideration (they make far less in their real day-to-day lives) but to no avail.

 

Sandy

[Colleen in NS]

 

I don't know. I'm sure that many parents willingly sacrifice to ensure that their children have a good life. Parenting, sort of by definition, means making sacrifices for one's children. One oughtn't to be foolish, of course, but given a choice between living with my child in my old age because I gave him the means to support himself and his family well, and supporting myself in my old age having left my child to struggle through life, I think perhaps the first choice might be better for everyone involved. This is probably a matter of family culture, though. Some families seem to be more interdependent than others.

 

Nan

 

That would be very sad. But what if they die? Or what if there is a deep recession and all the parents' savings vanish? Many unforeseen things happen. I think we just have to do the best we can to make the decisions that will let us live with ourselves and leave the rest. So far, my children have said I am welcome to live with them. We have said they were welcome to live with us as long as they wish and we have been willing to have our parents live with us. Hmm... Thinking about this, I begin to see that some of this might depend on having a famly culture that is comfortable with adult children living at home (whether they are taking care of their parents or just enjoying continuing family life). In a family culture that expects children to move out and live independently when they are 18, the reverse (old people moving back in) might be less desirable as well.? I don't know. It is not unusual in my area for adult children to continue to live at home or for the elderly to move back in with their children or have a grandchild living with them so I am just guessing. I think there are probably as many family cultures as there are families!

 

Nan

 

Nan

 

Nan, I just want to tell you that you have gradually changed my thinking over the years about this family culture thing. I have learned to see a different point of view than I experienced in my younger years, and I like how you see things! It seems more wholesome or something to me. Thank you for continuing to share your thoughts.

[Nan in Mass]

: )

 

Hugs, Colleen.

[-M-]

Late to this thread, but I saw this article this morning:

 

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/game-ramp-retirement-investing-40s-134913390.html

 

 

 

-- Most advisors agree that college savings should never come at the expense of your retirement planning. There's no scholarship, grant, or loan to finance your retirement. There are a myriad of options for supplementing the cost of higher education, however.

[Home'scool]

I haven't been back to post much on this thread because, frankly, this has been a terrible two weeks or so. I had so much angst about how this whole college process played out, and so much guilt about it, that I found it difficult to even read all the replies.

 

I am glad to say that we are in a much better spot now. My husband and I took my daughter back up to visit the state school where she will be going, and she was able to get a more positive feel for it. We met up with a student that she knows, and he basically had the same story. He got into a lot of schools, but this was the one he could afford. He also loves the school. It helped her to hear this. It's always worse when you think everyone is going to their dream school but you. The reality is, the state schools are filled with some really smart, accomplished kids who just couldn't afford anyplace else.

 

The school actually has a very good reputation, is in the top 100 list of national universities, and has a great reputation for her program (biochemistry) so in the end we were able to tell her that she is not giving up any academic opportunities or the ability to use this to springboard onto something greater.

 

It still stinks, though. I remember waaaay back when we started doing SAT prep, one of the programs I used talked about how studying 150 hours could conceiveably earn $75,000 in scholarships. I remember thinking at that time how huge an amount that seemed, and how utterly thrilled we would be if she did earn something like that.

 

Well, it is possible. She did get a scholarships close to that (the highest being $60,000). But at a school that was over $50,000 a year. So it didn't make a difference. They don't necessarily tell you that part :glare:

 

I also beat myself up for how I approached the process, but in the end I am not sure I would have done too much different.

 

Some people say to look at your kid's SAT scores and then have them apply where their scores are way above the average because then you will get scholarships. But with my daughter's score of 1980, that would have meant applying to schools where the averages were maybe somewhere around the 1700's. And none of the schools with those averages had the program quality that we were looking for.

 

And please... I am not saying that kids who have scores in the 1700's go to bad schools. I am just saying that for the type of science program she was looking for, and the opportunities she was looking for, we needed a well established, reputable program. And while she would be okay with going a few states away, going further than that wasn't really an option. So the choices do get limited. There are only so many in-state schools, and the rest are private, over 30K schools.

 

Thankfully we are back on track. My daughter is excited again about going off to her college. She has her new student orientation coming up this summer, and then they have all the freshman come on campus 3 days early for a fall orientation. She has a goal to get into the Honors Program, which requires her to keep all her classes above a B+, so that will keep her challenged.

 

And her life will unfold as it should. It's hard to remember the adage "This, too, shall pass" but in the end that is always what happens.

[creekland]

 

Thankfully we are back on track. My daughter is excited again about going off to her college. She has her new student orientation coming up this summer' date=' and then they have all the freshman come on campus 3 days early for a fall orientation. She has a goal to get into the Honors Program, which requires her to keep all her classes above a B+, so that will keep her challenged.

 

And her life will unfold as it should. It's hard to remember the adage "This, too, shall pass" but in the end that is always what happens.[/quote']

 

That's awesome news! Back in my day I went to a state school that was affordable vs my top choice that wasn't and I don't regret a thing now. I loved where I went. I met hubby. And, I got a great education...

 

Congrats to your D! (and you for getting her there!)

[Home'scool]

That's awesome news! Back in my day I went to a state school that was affordable vs my top choice that wasn't and I don't regret a thing now. I loved where I went. I met hubby. And, I got a great education

...

 

Thank you! I keep hearing this sentiment over and over, but I can never hear it enough. It helps to hear it again.

[justasque]

I went to the graduation ceremony at a private college prep high school last year and four years previous. In the program they print the colleges where each student was accepted, and where they will be going. Five years ago, most were going to top-ranked private colleges. By last year, it had flipped, and most were going to good state schools. *Lots* of people are making this choice, and it means that state schools are getting a higher quality of student, and thus can provide a better environment academically, for a cheaper price than the private schools. Which then attracts a higher quality of student to the state schools (and makes it harder to get accepted). And so on.

 

The take-away for me is that grades and test scores and extracurriculars and such are going to be even more important going forward, because the "fallback" schools will no longer be the cheaper state schools, but the more expensive private schools.

[Home'scool]

The take-away for me is that grades and test scores and extracurriculars and such are going to be even more important going forward

 

I think right now there is still too much of an emphasis on SAT scores. I know all the colleges say they take a "holistic" approach and consider the whole student, but I think that with the thousand of applications they get they have to have a cut off somewhere, and then from that pool they take a holistic approach.

 

Grades and extracurriculars have to be there too, but I think you have to get past that front gate first.

 

By last year, it had flipped, and most were going to good state schools. *Lots* of people are making this choice, and it means that state schools are getting a higher quality of student, and thus can provide a better environment academically, for a cheaper price than the private schools. Which then attracts a higher quality of student to the state schools (and makes it harder to get accepted). And so on.

 

I agree with you on the state schools. That is heartening to know, and exactly what has happened with the state school my daughter is going to. 20 years ago they have around an 80% acceptance rate. Today their acceptance rate is a lot lower with an average GPA of about 3.6.

[justasque]

Yep. I'll add that it wasn't that the kids weren't getting into the private schools. The graduating students' acceptance lists were very similar (last year vs. five years ago). It was the choice that was different - even given the option of an excellent private school, the kids (and their families) were choosing the state schools. Your dd should be proud she got into the state school, and will probably find that she is among academic peers, which I think is part of the key to a good college experience.

 

As to the SATs - unfortunately my casual impression is that the hard numbers (grades and test scores) are more important at the state schools, which have some obligation to be transparent and equitable with their admissions, and to be able to impartially justify their choices with some kind of formulaic, numbers and/or 'points'-based process. The private schools seem to have more leeway to accept a student based on more "fuzzy" impressions and requirements (interviews, unique experiences, etc.). One state school's application that I worked on really only asked for test scores, courses taken, and grades. They implied that extracurriculars etc. were really not a big part of their process, though you could include them if you wanted.

[Jane in NC]

 

As to the SATs - unfortunately my casual impression is that the hard numbers (grades and test scores) are more important at the state schools, which have some obligation to be transparent and equitable with their admissions, and to be able to impartially justify their choices with some kind of formulaic, numbers and/or 'points'-based process. The private schools seem to have more leeway to accept a student based on more "fuzzy" impressions and requirements (interviews, unique experiences, etc.). One state school's application that I worked on really only asked for test scores, courses taken, and grades. They implied that extracurriculars etc. were really not a big part of their process, though you could include them if you wanted.

 

Well zipcode means a lot at certain private schools which strive to have a geographically diverse student body. But I think that zipcode also plays a role at state unis. For example, consider a state like mine with 100 counties. If the state universities only accepted the top students, there would a saturation of students from good schools or better school systems. Many of the students at rural high schools would not be able to compete with the students who have had great opportunities in Raleigh, for example.

 

At one point in time, some of the UNC schools used a formula based on SAT, class rank, and extra-curriculars. (They may still--I just don't know.) This allows for a geographic mix from within the state, not just a concentration of students from a few schools. Essentially I think that most of the counties of the state are represented within a freshman class.

 

There is a problem that students from some well known high schools face. They may have great grades and SATs--but still there is a group of students who fared better. Thus their class rank is not within the top ten percent so they may be denied a place at a state uni while a "lesser" student with a solid class rank from a "lesser" school is given a place.

[creekland]

I think right now there is still too much of an emphasis on SAT scores. I know all the colleges say they take a "holistic" approach and consider the whole student' date=' but I think that with the thousand of applications they get they have to have a cut off somewhere, and then from [u']that[/u] pool they take a holistic approach.

 

Grades and extracurriculars have to be there too, but I think you have to get past that front gate first.

 

 

This is my impression too - for most schools and most majors. Homeschoolers seem to have more emphasis put on scores rather than less, but even at the ps where I work - scores count more than anything. We've had top kids get mediocre (good) scores and they don't get into top schools, much less tippy top.

 

 

As to the SATs - unfortunately my casual impression is that the hard numbers (grades and test scores) are more important at the state schools, which have some obligation to be transparent and equitable with their admissions, and to be able to impartially justify their choices with some kind of formulaic, numbers and/or 'points'-based process. The private schools seem to have more leeway to accept a student based on more "fuzzy" impressions and requirements (interviews, unique experiences, etc.). One state school's application that I worked on really only asked for test scores, courses taken, and grades. They implied that extracurriculars etc. were really not a big part of their process, though you could include them if you wanted.

 

State med schools are this way too. They go mostly off GPA and MCAT whereas private med schools can be choosier and look for a "class." I was told state schools have to do this to avoid discrimination.

 

Well zipcode means a lot at certain private schools which strive to have a geographically diverse student body. But I think that zipcode also plays a role at state unis. For example, consider a state like mine with 100 counties. If the state universities only accepted the top students, there would a saturation of students from good schools or better school systems. Many of the students at rural high schools would not be able to compete with the students who have had great opportunities in Raleigh, for example.

 

At one point in time, some of the UNC schools used a formula based on SAT, class rank, and extra-curriculars. (They may still--I just don't know.) This allows for a geographic mix from within the state, not just a concentration of students from a few schools. Essentially I think that most of the counties of the state are represented within a freshman class.

 

There is a problem that students from some well known high schools face. They may have great grades and SATs--but still there is a group of students who fared better. Thus their class rank is not within the top ten percent so they may be denied a place at a state uni while a "lesser" student with a solid class rank from a "lesser" school is given a place.

 

I agree that zip code helps (or hurts), but one still needs decent scores to get into higher level schools (state and otherwise) unless one has a really good hook of some sort. Schools will be more forgiving of classes, extra curriculars, and other such things where they aren't available, but few will be forgiving of lower scores.

 

At our ps, a couple of kids applied to places middle son looked at (equivalent places academically) but they didn't get in. They have more ec's than my guy did (especially school related, but also community), but significantly lower scores... They were in the top 5% at school - maybe higher and had 4.0+ GPAs. Some of the places they didn't get accepted Hive kids made it into. In those situations, Hive kids scored better. I'm assuming the fact that our school doesn't offer AP (except Euro) doesn't help either. We offer cc classes, but those sure don't seem to help a whole lot. Kids usually get elective credit for them where they get in - generally not class credit.

 

To be fair, our top kids with lower scores do well at lower level schools and often get scholarships there, but like the OP said, there is a difference in quality (though both can produce successful adults and are right for the right students).

 

I know many don't like to focus on scores, but great scores sure help and can't hurt. With lower scores one needs a good bit of "luck" to get scholarships - and in some places - acceptances.