WWE and FLL narration curricula is impossible

[Writerdaddy]

Hi there,

 

I have recently started homeschooling my twin just-turned-8-yesterday-year-olds.

 

My problem is the WWE and FLL narration passages are WAY too difficult for my children to follow. I am trying level 1 WWE only, with kids who are almost done with 2nd grade (albeit public school). For FLL, it is level 2 that I am starting with. Copywork, etc. is super easy for them, and I need to design my own exercises or go up levels for that. But I can't even get off the level 1 ground with them on comprehension. This is true whether just listening, reading along, or reading themselves (they know how to read).

 

Besides the fact that the readings (after the first couple of little house in the woods excerpts) are always peppered with advanced words (often at least 20 or more-- too many to go over), the passages are long and complex and often employ stylistically very unusual forms of expression (which I happen to like personally, as an adult). When I try the sample dialogues, I just get blank expressions. I bought into the curriculum in part for precisely these scripted lessons, which however are unusable at the moment.

 

I am invested heavily in a classical education (hundreds now to WTM materials, but also in terms of faith and confidence in the principles, including thinking how great it would be to hone the mind on the aforementioned difficult materials)

 

Only problem is: it doesn't seem to be getting off the ground, because it's just too hard for them to follow.

 

Because my children are intelligent, I can't help feeling other people have had the same experience. Any advice?

 

I am left only with the option of designing my own narration curriculum until such a time as my 8-- or will it be 9 or 10-- year olds are ready for 1st grade narration in this curriculum.

 

I should add that I am an educator myself and know how to read aloud-- it's just way too hard for them, even at the entry 1st grade level.

 

My daughter was identified for special advanced placement in her public school district but we left the district after that.

 

They were in public school K-1 in California, and this year did 2 out 3 terms of 2nd Grade in international private school in Thailand.

 

Any advice?

 

Alan

[Melissa in Australia]

I think the first WWE is designed for the parent to read aloud and assist the student through the questions to learn how to do narration. If your children are so intelligent etc etc. perhaps you need to try them in a higher level, maybe the WWE3?? I know the WWE4 is meant to be read by the student, perhaps try it.

 

Same thing with FLL2. It is designed for the parent to read aloud , it isn't a student self - teach text.

Personally I have just normal children and have had no problem with either text, in fact I Have found FLL especially to be terrific.

[Writerdaddy]

I guess I wasn't clear: I am not saying I need to go UP in levels, I am saying my kids cannot follow narration read to them even at the lowest levels provided by WWE, or Level 2 FLL. When I try the sample dialogues they go nowhere, because the kids cant follow anything from these long and difficult passages.

 

My point about them being intelligent was just to say that its not because they are not intelligent, and that possibly other parents have had difficulty with the narrations?

 

I can, and I suppose will, have to design my own curriculum for them, but it seems such a shame what with this curriculum already done up so thoughtfully by others, and paid for by me.

 

Another way to put it is that it seems the narration is way harder than the copywork or dictation exercises... like they are at least two years apart in level of difficulty.

[Melissa in Australia]

well, My 8 year old cannot write independently yet ( very strong Dyslexia in thins family) so he narrates to me, then I write the narration down, then he copies it. It works really well.

I guess it is copy work sort of, but it is a great way to start off narration, then (hopefully) he will begin independent narration. When he does, he will already be familiar with the process. At least this is how it worked with his older siblings.

 

I wasn't meaning to be snarky at all, Just I really do have just average children and they find writing and reading difficult.

[AvasMom]

Have you been reading aloud to them? At their ages I would be reading classic children's books to them during read aloud time. That's going to help them learn to follow more complex narratives. Also, I have found it helpful for my ds to be doing something like Legos when I read to him. It helps him focus. Perhaps you can try something like that?

[boscopup]

You may need to start with something easier. Try some Aesop's fables (especially the really short ones), or even some picture books.

 

The language in WWE1 *is* difficult. I actually thought WWE2 was easier for us. :lol: But persevering through WWE1 was beneficial. My son had to work at it, which was a nice change from school. ;) Some weeks were better than others. Rumpelstiltskin and Pinocchio were particularly evil, as I recall.

 

I'd also suggest reading a lot of classics out loud - especially ones with "older" language. That will help them understand the vocabulary better.

 

Keep in mind that this is a process. Your children are not expected to be able to answer all the comprehension questions the first week. They're expected to be able to do it by week 36. So keep practicing, ask questions after each paragraph or even a few lines, and work up to being able to do it for the whole reading. It's worth the effort!

[stripe]

What about using Aesop's Fables for narrations? There are books with tons of them in them. Many of them are short and to the point. I have the version illustrated by Milo Winter, which has TONS!, but there are other editions.

[Alessandra]

Hello, Writerdaddy & welcome!

 

I had a similar experience with WWE. My dc had a very difficult time, even when I broke up the readings into paragraphs. Using week 2 as an example -- my dc were not able to "picture" Geppetto's house with the fireplace painted on the wall, etc, so they could not answer the questions. Since WWE moves from book to book, my dc had to try to make a new "picture" for each reading, and it was just too difficult for them. They could follow regular read alouds more easily, because of the continuity. We ended up not doing WWE.

 

But I think narration is a good skill to work on -- it will develop reading comprehension and help with writing later.

 

You have got some good suggestions. If I could add one more thing you might like to look into -- Visualizing & Verbalizing. It is a reading comprehension program from Lindamood-Bell, a very highly regarded company that has programs for decoding, phonemic awareness, etc.

 

The premise behind V & V is that good readers can naturally make a "picture" in their heads of what is being read. But many people need help in learning how to picture what has been written. V & V is a step by step program that show kids how to make a picture, sentence by sentence. There are plenty of writing exercises: answering direct questions, arranging the events of the story sequentially, asking for inferences, and, at the end, a creative writing section, based on the reading.

 

There are a lot of samples on the website. This is the main website -- click on 'Programs' at the left

 

http://www.lindamoodbell.com/

 

and you can buy the program here (the workbooks are what you need)

 

http://www.ganderpublishing.com/

 

Hope this helps.

[lmrich]

my dd did much better when she saw the words that I was reading. She would read along with me; it kept her more focused. When she could not answer a question, I would then go back to the text and read the part that would answer it. Then she would answer; if she could not, I would read it again and talk about it. Now in WWE 3 (in 4th grade) she is flying through it. Those beginning skills are key. She writes excellent paragraphs for history and science as well.

[Writerdaddy]

Thanks! That's really helpful.

I think I might not be communicating too well sometimes, but I meant that there is no narration to take down with my kids because they can't understand anything from the passages.

I do realize this is in part due to the fact that they did not need to understand in school to complete their worksheets or whatever, and the reading they got was pure drivel. This is a whole new thing for them.

It is interesting to hear that they are not expected to be able to do the exercises in the curriculum until 30+ weeks into it. I just assumed that the passages given in the curriculum were considered appropriate for that level. But if the point is not to be able to do it, but just to be challenged, then it's working!

Actually, in fact the worse they are at it the more it makes me believe in the value of classical education and worry about the ill state of affairs in public school.

I have tried Aesops for Children but it is still too difficult for them to follow, although the very short ones are better.

Probably I should do some combination of challenge them with this curriculum and make my own easier one for them out of picture books and the like.

And yes, it was right after doing those Pinochio and Rumplestiltzkin passages that I came to the forum asking for help!

 

thanks again,

 

Alan

[Carrie12345]

Exposure, exposure, exposure!

 

My oldest wasn't pulled out of school until after the 4th grade. It took time for him to be comfortable with the vocabulary and style of good writing, even as a high-IQ child.

 

My daughters have been reading and listening to good writing from the beginning. While they still get tripped up on a few words and phrases from time to time, the general style is no problem for them at all. And, if I have to guess, I'd say they're of relatively normal intelligence.

 

There was a time when very undereducated children spoke "classical language" fluently... because that is what they heard. If a child today has limited exposure, they're not going to "get it" right away. Keep it going, and give it time.

[Writerdaddy]

Also checked out the visualizing sites, can't seem to find any samples though. This looks like an intriguing way to go and your good experience is very encouraging.

 

The fact that you ditched WWE is another thing, though I understand why. I read their book and just got caught up in perfect confidence that it was a well designed curriculum, but now it seems a little haphazard.

[JumpyTheFrog]

Maybe getting lots of books on CD from the library would help. My six year old would listen to them for five hours a day if we let him. Last week he listened to Pinocchio a few times. I haven't tried WWE yet, but I bet it will help when we get to it.

[freesia]

Thanks! That's really helpful.

I think I might not be communicating too well sometimes, but I meant that there is no narration to take down with my kids because they can't understand anything from the passages.

I do realize this is in part due to the fact that they did not need to understand in school to complete their worksheets or whatever, and the reading they got was pure drivel. This is a whole new thing for them.

It is interesting to hear that they are not expected to be able to do the exercises in the curriculum until 30+ weeks into it. I just assumed that the passages given in the curriculum were considered appropriate for that level. But if the point is not to be able to do it, but just to be challenged, then it's working!

Actually, in fact the worse they are at it the more it makes me believe in the value of classical education and worry about the ill state of affairs in public school.

I have tried Aesops for Children but it is still too difficult for them to follow, although the very short ones are better.

Probably I should do some combination of challenge them with this curriculum and make my own easier one for them out of picture books and the like.

And yes, it was right after doing those Pinochio and Rumplestiltzkin passages that I came to the forum asking for help!

 

thanks again,

 

Alan

Welcome, Alan. While I have never used WWE, I have used narration in our homeschool. The advice I've heard with narration is to start small and build up. If your children are having trouble with the passages can you start smaller and simpler? Start with one paragraph, not an entire fable. It takes practice to keep it all in your brain.

 

Here is an article on narration by Karen Andreola that you might find helpful: http://www.homeschoolhighlights.com/02_narration/

 

I also second reading quality children's books to your children. Stop to explain vocabulary once in a while. Sonlight curriculum has read alouds that are wonderful and that build this skill naturally.

[happyhomemaker25]

Change it up if you need to for now, but I would take the book list and read through those books with your kids. Don't worry about narration just read. Its a different way of learning and it takes some time. Don't be afraid to try again in a year. I started all my kids in WWE 1 because they were having so much trouble with narration. They flew through it but the confidence I see now makes it worth everything.

Maybe to get them used to narration you just start with talking through their picture books. Throw in some poetry and an Aesop fable or two.

I just remembered something that helped my kids was picture narration. I would have them look at a painting and tell me what they saw. I required detailed answers. "The yellow vase with the pink flowers on it is sitting by the window." It was a fun easy way to get them to use details more.

Don't be afraid to back off for a bit. Sometimes they just need a little time.

[2squared]

You may need to start with something easier. Try some Aesop's fables (especially the really short ones), or even some picture books.

 

FWIW, my kids have trouble narrating Aesop's fables. They have had difficulty with a few WWE passages, but Aesop's fables really messed with their heads.

 

My guess is that you need to read to them....a lot. Have you been reading quality picture books all along? If not, I would start there. Picture books are great b/c you can see the story as it's read. They can learn to "read between the lines" by studying the illustrations. Reading books ala Five In a Row might be a good idea for a while too. FIAR really knows how to bring out a picture book.

[Quad Shot Academy]

Do you mean your 8 year olds can't tell you what happened in an Aesop's fable after you read it to them? And one of them was labeled as gifted? If so, I would have to guess there is a learning disability or processing disorder going on. I think you should have them evaluated. Do they understand normal books for their age when read to them or when reading them? :grouphug:

[mariposa]

My kids have struggled with some of the passages from WWE, especially when you get into the higher levels and it's more nonfiction that fiction. I do think it is very valuable to continue challenging them. A couple of suggestions for you:

1. Consider choosing your own selections of stories to begin with, that are more at their comprehension level. There's no rule that you have to use the ones from the textbook. At least until they start improving their comprehension and narration ability. They shouldn't be frustrated with EVERY lesson. Maybe do easier stories for a few weeks and then try again with a selection from WWE?

2. I completely agree with others--read aloud to them as much as you can, or consider stories on cd for car trips. We always have a story to listen to in the car, and I'm sure that this has improved their comprehension. My dh and I also read to them aloud for at LEAST an hour a day in the early years. They're starting to read more on their own now!

3. Use the questions in the book to go through the stories. That always helps my kids a lot when we have a reading selections that's more challenging to them.

4. Hang in there! My ds is getting so good at this after 4 years of practice. It is SO IMPORTANT to comprehend and to narrate back. My husband is a college English professor and he has encouraged me often to stick with WWE. These are skills that many college students lack!

HTH,

Sarah

[amo_mea_filiis.]

Do you mean your 8 year olds can't tell you what happened in an Aesop's fable after you read it to them? And one of them was labeled as gifted? If so, I would have to guess there is a learning disability or processing disorder going on. I think you should have them evaluated. Do they understand normal books for their age when read to them or when reading them? :grouphug:

 

 

This is what i was wondering.

 

My 7 year old has some language delays and is unable to narrate anything we read. For now i just ask him questions. I have only recently been able to ask a few questions that require more than yes or no.

 

We also started talking about all books we read, which is something he has always refused to do. I try to throw out crazy things that get his attention, like when reading chicken butt (his current favorite) i will start talking about zombies and he will correct me and i can guide him into telling me about the story.

[kwickimom]

My then 8YO struggled with narrations when I took her out of school because I was reading the stories to her and she has trouble with auditory learning. If she reads the passage herself she does fine. I would do both....read to her and ask her questions and THEN have her narrate very small sections and over time she has gotten better at them. I can now read a chapter in a book and ask her some questions and she can do a written narration quite well.

 

I think you need to try a few different things and keep at it and see what works.

[lea1]

We are doing WWE1 and FLL1 and my two 6 YO's can normally answer the questions and provide one thing they remember. I have been reading classic literature to them from the beginning and I think that helps a lot. We have read many of the books that are used in WWE1 and they have no problems at all with these. Sometimes I may need to re-read part of a passage because they don't remember something specific that is asked, especially when it is something in a list. They really had trouble remembering the one about the days of the week. But most of the time they can do this work with no problem and I attribute that to the reading of many, many classical works through the years.

 

One thing I did when we got WWE1 was to go through it and make a list of all the books used. I use it as a reading list for this year because I know they are all great reads. Many we had read and my sons are always excited to hear a passage from a book we have already read, as it brings back fond memories. For the ones we have not read, we are always talking about how it sounds like a great book and we need to read it.

 

Another thing I have always done with them is ask them what was happening in a book when we left off. If we read it yesterday and are sitting down to read another couple of chapters today, I will say, "Let's see...what was happening when we stopped reading yesterday. Do you remember?" and we discuss it and get excited about where we left off and what will happen next. I think this also helps with learning to narrate.

 

I definitely agree that visualizing is important and I have tried to help them learn to do that by talking through what is happening. I also stop and make sure they understand what is going on if I see words that I know they do not understand. I know pretty well which words they know and which they don't. Sometimes I will stop and ask, "Did you understand that?" or "Do you know what they meant by that?". It really expands their vocab a lot.

[happyhomemaker]

Grimms fairy tales might be a good place to start to get them used to more difficult language. Start with stories they already know so they can focus on the new language and not have to worry about understanding the story too. If you move on to other books, maybe you could summarize a chapter before you read it so they are not so overwhelmed as they listen.

 

What kinds of books can they understand and tell back to you? I would practice narration now with what they are currently reading and then read classics to them. After a while they will get used to the language and WWE should be much easier for them.

[Zoo Keeper]

Narration has been a struggle at times for my guys; I wrote about how we do it here.

 

Also, have you tried listening to SWB's elementary writing lecture? I *personally* find the lectures easier to implement than WWE.

[Writerdaddy]

Thanks again. Picking up lots of great suggestions. Most of these boil down to the WWE and FLL curriculum being either not well designed or just not right for my kids where they are at now.

 

I have been reading picture books and fun stuff with them. I have never read a classic book to them before.

 

In answer to other questions: mostly it is the unusual language and length of the passages which seem too difficult to follow. I don't think it is a learning disability, but it could be a public school "acquired disability." Still, I have to answer that yes, reading the passages in the WWE level 1, excepting the first couple of them, my "gifted" child cannot follow it. Nor, with an average length Aesop can she follow it. Her twin brother, the same. It does not seem strange to me that they cannot follow it, nor can I imagine any of their friends being able to either. I have trouble imagining that my situation here is terribly unique.

 

I agree wholeheartedly that this is a great skill to impart ASAP, and I am very motivated to do so. However, I feel I chucked a big chunk of money away here, getting too motivated, when it was really the principle of it and not the curriculum I should have been excited about. I can't really force my kids through these lessons when they are not ready.

 

Also, as a university professor in a california public university of almost the highest level, I can attest to the sorry state of public education. A majority of my students come to university in a state that is in my eyes basically barely literate.

 

Once I assigned an ordinary science fiction book because I thought it would be a fun way to talk about particular ideas. Instead, we had to try and figure out together what was going on in the book, who what who and what was happening, etc.

 

I really don't want my kids to turn out that way but I see it coming already, right here in what we are talking about now. Good thing I caught it now.

[Crimson Wife]

If the advanced vocabulary is what is tripping them up, then I would pre-teach those words before reading the passage. I would write the definitions on the whiteboard as a reference tool as well.

[KathyBC]

My dd had a tough time with some of WWE 1. She had less trouble with familiar stories. As others have said, she does better when she can read over my shoulder with me. And she is very much the type of learner who would look great in a public school setting. We are now well into WWE 2 and I am thrilled with the improvements I am seeing in her ability to narrate, though answering the comprehension questions is still sometimes dependent on how well the story captured her interest. So far, we just keep going, assuming that the challenging times are learning times, not a sign of complete disaster, lol.

[Quad Shot Academy]

 

In answer to other questions: mostly it is the unusual language and length of the passages which seem too difficult to follow. I don't think it is a learning disability, but it could be a public school "acquired disability." Still, I have to answer that yes, reading the passages in the WWE level 1, excepting the first couple of them, my "gifted" child cannot follow it. Nor, with an average length Aesop can she follow it. Her twin brother, the same. It does not seem strange to me that they cannot follow it, nor can I imagine any of their friends being able to either. I have trouble imagining that my situation here is terribly unique.

 

I am sorry to disagree with you, but I think an average K'er could follow an Aesops. If you come up with an intervention strategy and it does not work, I would seek help. I would turn off the TV and only allow books on tape, for now. I would read books aloud, having them close their eyes and try to picture the imagery. I would read basic stories with basic comprehension questions. A Children's Bible with questions is a great place to start if you are Christian. :grouphug:

[sassenach]

Thanks again. Picking up lots of great suggestions. Most of these boil down to the WWE and FLL curriculum being either not well designed or just not right for my kids where they are at now.

 

I have been reading picture books and fun stuff with them. I have never read a classic book to them before.

In answer to other questions: mostly it is the unusual language and length of the passages which seem too difficult to follow. I don't think it is a learning disability, but it could be a public school "acquired disability." Still, I have to answer that yes, reading the passages in the WWE level 1, excepting the first couple of them, my "gifted" child cannot follow it. Nor, with an average length Aesop can she follow it. Her twin brother, the same. It does not seem strange to me that they cannot follow it, nor can I imagine any of their friends being able to either. I have trouble imagining that my situation here is terribly unique.

 

I agree wholeheartedly that this is a great skill to impart ASAP, and I am very motivated to do so. However, I feel I chucked a big chunk of money away here, getting too motivated, when it was really the principle of it and not the curriculum I should have been excited about. I can't really force my kids through these lessons when they are not ready.

 

Also, as a university professor in a california public university of almost the highest level, I can attest to the sorry state of public education. A majority of my students come to university in a state that is in my eyes basically barely literate.

 

Once I assigned an ordinary science fiction book because I thought it would be a fun way to talk about particular ideas. Instead, we had to try and figure out together what was going on in the book, who what who and what was happening, etc.

 

I really don't want my kids to turn out that way but I see it coming already, right here in what we are talking about now. Good thing I caught it now.

 

The bolded above is probably the right place to start. Gently, I do think it is unusual for children of that age not to be able to follow Aesop's fables. Perhaps the passages that have been chosen for WWE1 are just too big of a leap for kids that haven't been read to at length. Personally, I didn't love the WWE workbooks (for different reasons), but I think the approach is solid. I was much happier putting the method into practice by using the book Writing With Ease (it encompasses all 4 years) and applying the principals to what we were already reading. Also, you might want to study up on the Charlotte Mason approach to narration. More than anything, it sounds like your kids need to be trained to listen to good literature. I would not worry too much about their narration abilities for the moment, and instead I would curl up on the couch and read, read, read GOOD literature (it should be above their reading level, but it doesn't need to be "classic" in the sense of using old English). In about 3 months, try narration again. If they still can't do it, then I would highly suggest seeking out information on auditory processing disorders. HTH!

[DianeW88]

We are doing WWE1 and FLL1 and my two 6 YO's can normally answer the questions and provide one thing they remember. I have been reading classic literature to them from the beginning and I think that helps a lot. We have read many of the books that are used in WWE1 and they have no problems at all with these. Sometimes I may need to re-read part of a passage because they don't remember something specific that is asked, especially when it is something in a list. They really had trouble remembering the one about the days of the week. But most of the time they can do this work with no problem and I attribute that to the reading of many, many classical works through the years.

 

One thing I did when we got WWE1 was to go through it and make a list of all the books used. I use it as a reading list for this year because I know they are all great reads. Many we had read and my sons are always excited to hear a passage from a book we have already read, as it brings back fond memories. For the ones we have not read, we are always talking about how it sounds like a great book and we need to read it.

 

Another thing I have always done with them is ask them what was happening in a book when we left off. If we read it yesterday and are sitting down to read another couple of chapters today, I will say, "Let's see...what was happening when we stopped reading yesterday. Do you remember?" and we discuss it and get excited about where we left off and what will happen next. I think this also helps with learning to narrate.

 

I definitely agree that visualizing is important and I have tried to help them learn to do that by talking through what is happening. I also stop and make sure they understand what is going on if I see words that I know they do not understand. I know pretty well which words they know and which they don't. Sometimes I will stop and ask, "Did you understand that?" or "Do you know what they meant by that?". It really expands their vocab a lot.

 

:iagree: This. My son had no difficulties with WWE in first grade. But we read classic literature all. the. time. We read Pinnochio and Peter Pan aloud when he was five. It's what they're used to. If all your kids read in public school was "See Spot run", then of course they aren't going to be able to understand more difficult passages of literature.

 

Start by reading the classics aloud. Every day. Ask questions about what is happening in the story you're reading constantly. Stop and point things out if your child isn't "getting it". "Did you see what Peter Pan did here? How do you think Wendy is going to react to that? What would you say to Peter?" Read articles and books on narration. Search Karen Andreola on Amazon for suggestions. She's amazing.

 

Shelve WWE for now, or else spoon feed it to them. Eventually they'll catch up. If they haven't after several months, look into an auditory processing disorder.

 

Good luck!

Edited April 15, 2012 by DianeW88

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

:iagree: This. My son had no difficulties with WWE in first grade. But we read classic literature all. the. time. We read Pinnochio and Peter Pan aloud when he was five. It's what they're used to. If all your kids read in public school was "See Spot run", then of course they aren't going to be able to understand more difficult passages of literature.

 

Start by reading the classics aloud. Every day. Ask questions about what is happening in the story you're reading constantly. Stop and point things out if your child isn't "getting it". "Did you see what Peter Pan did here? How do you think Wendy is going to react to that? What would you say to Peter?" Read articles and books on narration. Search Karen Andreola on Amazon for suggestions. She's amazing.

 

Shelve WWE for now, or else spoon feed it to them. Eventually they'll catch up. If they haven't after several months, look into an auditory processing disorder.

 

Good luck!

:iagree: K12 also some great collections for classic children's stories that can be found on Amazon. They have many grade levels; I would start with the first level:

 

http://www.amazon.com/Classics-Young-Readers-Volume-1/dp/1931728003/ref=sr_1_4?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1334507906&sr=1-4

Edited April 15, 2012 by priscilla

[Just Kate]

I am using both FLL and WWE with my just turned 8 year old son, and I have found that it is better for us to start FLL in 1st grade and hold off on WWE 1 until second grade. I love the approach to narration and dictation and I feel that these books do a great job. However, I really want to make sure that ds "gets" it, so I am just taking it a bit slower for him.

 

So, I am wondering if you shouldn't just take some time to introduce your kids to some good classics and then try WWE with them again next year?

[GingerPoppy]

I agree with your assessment that it's probably a result of public school training that they're having difficulty. In WWE, the sentences are longer and often grammatically challenging (ie. very few straight subject-verb-complement sentences) plus there is a significant amount of difficult vocabulary, and some of it is even verging on archaic. I don't mean this in a negative way, I simply mean that many of the words aren't commonly used in today's society. It's still valuable to learn them.

 

I don't think there's anything wrong with using WWE off the normal schedule. My own 10 year old was pulled out in grade 4, and I opted to start her with WWE2, which she is just finishing. I don't mind being "behind" because I know she is getting very valuable skills that weren't taught in PS.

 

In your situation, I wouldn't feel I had wasted money... I'd just set the curriculum aside for a half a year and come back to it. Spend the next six months reading quality literature--it doesn't all have to be classic, but it should all be high-quality (more challenging vocab and sentence structure, as well as the introduction of "big ideas" such as compassion, hope, wisdom, and so on.) Discuss at length. Get them excited by doing lit extensions for some books, such as looking up places on the globe, cooking, art, whatever. The more excited they are, the more motivated they are to place themselves *in* the story, despite any challenging language.

 

Meanwhile, begin using reasonably simple passages (maybe something short from the Ramona books or something by Dick King-Smith) and helping them to narrate back. I sometimes give a few first words to guide the narration--it seems to get them "unstuck". Then, when they've been immersed in this for a half a year or so, go back and gently guide them through WWE1. Assistance and modeling is fine! That's part of the learning. :)

[Catherine]

Another reading option is the Andrew Lang color fairy books-the language is a bit difficult, but the stories are wonderful, and short enough to read several in a reading session. My 10 yo moves these books.

[nmoira]

I'd scrap WWE for now and give them the education they've been missing.

 

I have never read a classic book to them before.

Young children already used to hearing good quality children's literature are far less likely to have problems with WWE. This is where I'd focus for the next few months. Immerse them in folk and fairy tales and mythology. Read them classic children's fiction, and don't neglect works from the late 18th and early 19th centuries. These are gateway books to the classics.

 

Read aloud, use audio books, but get them hearing good quality prose (and poetry) at every opportunity. There are a number of good modern picture and chapter book retellings of famous tales. Look for books by Margaret Hodges, Geraldine McCaughrean, Paul O. Zelinsky, Neil Philip, Judy Sierra, and the d'Aulaires. Work up to Padraic Colum, Andrew Lang (The Blue Fairy Book, etc.), Aesop and Grimm. Good first "classic" chapter books include Charlotte's Web, Little House in the Big Woods, and others from the Ambleside Year 1 list. "Gateway" authors from the late 18th and early 19th centuries include E. Nesbit, R.L. Stevenson, James Barrie, Kipling (Just So Stories), Kenneth Grahame, and Andrew Lang. Most of the books excerpted in WWE are also good choices, though I'd save A Christmas Carol and Tom Sawyer until later.

Edited April 15, 2012 by nmoira

[Kathryn]

We are doing WWE1 and FLL1 and my two 6 YO's can normally answer the questions and provide one thing they remember. I have been reading classic literature to them from the beginning and I think that helps a lot. We have read many of the books that are used in WWE1 and they have no problems at all with these. Sometimes I may need to re-read part of a passage because they don't remember something specific that is asked, especially when it is something in a list. They really had trouble remembering the one about the days of the week. But most of the time they can do this work with no problem and I attribute that to the reading of many, many classical works through the years.

 

One thing I did when we got WWE1 was to go through it and make a list of all the books used. I use it as a reading list for this year because I know they are all great reads. Many we had read and my sons are always excited to hear a passage from a book we have already read, as it brings back fond memories. For the ones we have not read, we are always talking about how it sounds like a great book and we need to read it.

 

Another thing I have always done with them is ask them what was happening in a book when we left off. If we read it yesterday and are sitting down to read another couple of chapters today, I will say, "Let's see...what was happening when we stopped reading yesterday. Do you remember?" and we discuss it and get excited about where we left off and what will happen next. I think this also helps with learning to narrate.

 

I definitely agree that visualizing is important and I have tried to help them learn to do that by talking through what is happening. I also stop and make sure they understand what is going on if I see words that I know they do not understand. I know pretty well which words they know and which they don't. Sometimes I will stop and ask, "Did you understand that?" or "Do you know what they meant by that?". It really expands their vocab a lot.

 

The bolded above is probably the right place to start. Gently, I do think it is unusual for children of that age not to be able to follow Aesop's fables. Perhaps the passages that have been chosen for WWE1 are just too big of a leap for kids that haven't been read to at length. Personally, I didn't love the WWE workbooks (for different reasons), but I think the approach is solid. I was much happier putting the method into practice by using the book Writing With Ease (it encompasses all 4 years) and applying the principals to what we were already reading. Also, you might want to study up on the Charlotte Mason approach to narration. More than anything, it sounds like your kids need to be trained to listen to good literature. I would not worry too much about their narration abilities for the moment, and instead I would curl up on the couch and read, read, read GOOD literature (it should be above their reading level, but it doesn't need to be "classic" in the sense of using old English). In about 3 months, try narration again. If they still can't do it, then I would highly suggest seeking out information on auditory processing disorders. HTH!

 

:iagree: This. My son had no difficulties with WWE in first grade. But we read classic literature all. the. time. We read Pinnochio and Peter Pan aloud when he was five. It's what they're used to. If all your kids read in public school was "See Spot run", then of course they aren't going to be able to understand more difficult passages of literature.

 

Start by reading the classics aloud. Every day. Ask questions about what is happening in the story you're reading constantly. Stop and point things out if your child isn't "getting it". "Did you see what Peter Pan did here? How do you think Wendy is going to react to that? What would you say to Peter?" Read articles and books on narration. Search Karen Andreola on Amazon for suggestions. She's amazing.

 

Shelve WWE for now, or else spoon feed it to them. Eventually they'll catch up. If they haven't after several months, look into an auditory processing disorder.

 

Good luck!

 

I agree with these posts. I don't think it's the fault of the curriculum at all. I think it's a lack of exposure to quality literature. My six year old started WWE1/FLL1 a month before his sixth birthday. He's had absolutely no problems with it (and he's autistic). But we've been reading quality/classic literature to him since he was three. I also don't agree at all with a pp that children aren't expected to be able to answer the questions until the end. As someone else said, pretty much the only trouble we've had is remembering minute details like lists of things.

 

I'd recommend putting it aside and focus on enjoying reading quality literature for a few months as others suggested. Stop every so often and explain passages they might have trouble with. Try narrations with books with which they're familiar in style to gauge whether it may be a auditory processing issue. Most of all, don't get discouraged!

[nmoira]

Stop every so often and explain passages they might have trouble with.

 

When I'm done answering specific questions or explaining something, I usually go back and reread the relevant sentence or passage so it can be heard in a new light.

[Kathryn]

I'd scrap WWE for now and give them the education they've been missing.

 

Young children already used to hearing good quality children's literature are far less likely to have problems with WWE. This is where I'd focus for the next few months. Immerse them in folk and fairy tales and mythology. Read them classic children's fiction, and don't neglect works from the late 18th and early 19th centuries. These are gateway books to the classics.

 

Read aloud, use audio books, but get them hearing good quality prose (and poetry) at every opportunity. There are a number of good modern picture and chapter book retellings of famous tales. Look for books by Margaret Hodges, Geraldine McCaughrean, Paul O. Zelinsky, Neil Philip, Judy Sierra, and the d'Aulaire brothers. Work up to Padraic Colum, Andrew Lang (The Blue Fairy Book, etc.), Aesop and Grimm. Good first "classic" chapter books include Charlotte's Web, Little House in the Big Woods, and others from the Ambleside Year 1 list. "Gateway" authors from the late 18th and early 19th centuries include E. Nesbit, R.L. Stevenson, James Barrie, Kipling (Just So Stories), Kenneth Grahame, and Andrew Lang. Most of the books excerpted in WWE are also good choices, though I'd save A Christmas Carol and Tom Sawyer until later.

 

Totally OT, but I always thought the d'Aulaires were husband/wife?

[nmoira]

Totally OT, but I always thought the d'Aulaires were husband/wife?

:D You made me Google. I've correct my post.

[Mommy22alyns]

:iagree: K12 also some great collections for classic children's stories that can be found on Amazon. They have many grade levels; I would start with the first level:

 

http://www.amazon.com/Classics-Young-Readers-Volume-1/dp/1931728003/ref=sr_1_4?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1334507906&sr=1-4

 

 

These are also readily available at CBD: http://www.christianbook.com/Christian/Books/product?item_no=728543&event=WL&item_code=WW

 

It looks like PPs have figured out the problem. PS and not being read to from challenging selections can render WWE very difficult. It's also work in and of itself - we had our share of challenges, but the girls are much improved. Just keep working!

[brett_ashley]

You've gotten some good advice here but I'll add my two cents.

 

Narration is a learned skill for most people--don't give up! Stop WWE for now and order Jim Trelease's The Read-Aloud Handbook. He has some beautiful and practical hints on training your children to love good literature. For some children it's helpful to have their hands busy (like knitting or Legos) and for others it's distracting.

 

Once you have committed yourself to a lifestyle of read-alouds (I would say at least one hour per day for children your age--not all at one time if they don't have the attention span yet), I would pick back up with Charlotte's Web or Little House in the Big Woods. These are lovely books that my four year old of average intelligence has no trouble narrating. Using the WWE guide as a format, start them with simple narrations. Even if you have to stop every paragraph, try and get them to narrate something about it.

 

We have a big jar full of narration ideas and after each passage, the kids pick a slip of paper that says, "Reenact your favorite scene." or "Tell what you remember" or whatever. Here are some more ideas from a blog I found: http://heartkeepercommonroom.blogspot.com/2005/08/narration-jar.html.

 

If you got frustrated on Rumpelstiltskin and Pinnochio, you've only been at it for 2-3 weeks. Don't give up. Our kids need time to acclimate their palates to good literature. If all they had ever eaten was twinkies and Pop Tarts, it would take a while for them to like cantaloupe and whole wheat bread.

Edited April 15, 2012 by brett_ashley

[Stacy in NJ]

I'll explain with an example:

 

Say you're teaching two kids. One is a boy and reads below grade level; the other is a girl who reads well and frequently. The teacher introduces a short story about baseball. The story includes references to a short-stop, a foul ball, and the in-field fly rule. Even though the story is written at a level that would normally challenge the boy, because he plays baseball, he understands the story and can talk about it in detail. The girl, on the other hand, has NO experience with baseball at all. She struggles to get it. The boy has background knowlege the girl doesn't. It is easy for him because he can place the story into context.

 

The problem with WWE is that SWB pulls bits of a story out for narration that the student can not place into context and might have little or no background knowledge of.

 

My suggestion is to ask you dc to narrate from a book you're currently reading to them. Do this after you've read them the first chapter or two. Stop in the middle of a chapter and ask them what just happened. After they've developed some familiarity with the characters, setting, and gained some background information, I bet they'll have little trouble narrating.

[Writerdaddy]

Wow! Thanks so much. The great suggestions keep pouring in and also many helpful links.

This is about the most active mutual support forum I have ever seen on the web.

Hmm... I wonder what does that say about what it's like to homeschool?:blink:

 

I agree that the trouble is in part due to the fact that my way, up to now, was to read fun books with them and make everything joyous and easy. I was reading books that were in my eyes well written and creative, but not classic. Also, we have spent a lot of time and emphasis on music, art, and dance and with public school have not read two hours a day together at all.

 

I realize that others have been producing that joy with classic tales early on, with different results, now, than mine.

 

It also took me a while to go from horror at my public school to pulling out. The reading they had was pure drivel-- worse than see spot go, (but it did teach them to decode and read). My worst moment was coming into the classroom to find a big paper tree on the wall, with different branches representing a higher number of words read per minute. The little six year olds were each "leaves" with names on them arranged for all to see from highest to lowest branches based on their reading speed.

 

My son still shows signs of reading as fast as possible including too-quick recognition errors and not comprehending: all the brain is devoted to word recognition. This is of course not the problem when I am reading to them, however.

 

I am actually more into Charlotte Mason than anything, but because I was unable to get anywhere with narration I turned to WTM for a more guided and structured approach. Well, at least I got the ideas and also all this great help on this board.

 

Probably the best thing so far is that we are about 1/3 of the way through Charlotte's web. Stopping about once per page, I can get some comprehension but still there is a huge vocabulary gap (too big to fill with pre-learning) and many sentences are too complex (but, oh, so beautifully written, and inconspicuously so) to follow, which results in losing a grip on the scene. Lots of fantastic copywork samples there, though.

 

I think what I am taking away from this forum thread is maybe to just go on, make do, and read and read until something catches.

 

And to those who say there is nothing unusual about their 5-year-old being able to follow a long Aesop fable no problem, and an 8-year old who can't probably has a problem that needs checking into: I say you are living in a bubble. Great! You say your child is normal but I say you and your child are great! You are already getting spectacular results that do not at all compare with what's "normal" out in the rest of the world. I am sure of this. Keep going! We will get there too someday soon.:)

[mamajag]

This means you really, really need to keep doing the FLL and WWE. They won't be able to write well until they can form sentences in their mind. My daughter would freeze like that, and even though she was intelligent enough to do the work she was afraid to be wrong. So we kept working the program, and I kept modeling responses. It took weeks with me doing most of the work and having her parroting back the expected responses, but ever so slowly she did develop an ability to narrate and now can summarize a passage in WWE 2 with very little prompting.

 

It does work. I recommend the audio lecture on teaching writing to elementary students highly for furthering my understanding of exactly how this writing curriculum is supposed to work and how it is supposed to be difficult. It was not expensive but was positively invaluable on multiple occasions when I was doubting myself and the program.

[Mrs Mungo]

First, most people following TWTM start narration using Story of the World and in the later parts of First Language Lessons. The activity guide for SOTW contains questions to ask the kids. You help them put together a narration paragraph based upon their answers (and you write it down for them). The narration exercises in FLL work much the same way.

 

If you follow all of the recommendations in TWTM, then by the time kids start WWE in third grade (which is the grade TWTM recommends you begin a writing program) they have 2 years worth of experience with guided narration. You might be better off starting with First Language Lessons.

 

One thing that is not clear from the book(s)? Susan recommends a great deal of hand-holding and walking the kids through it, especially when it is new to them. There are blogs, articles and videos that help explain this better on the well trained mind site: http://www.welltrainedmind.com/. Peace Hill Press recently held a writing conference that they videoed and is due to be released on DVD soon. It should be a big help once it comes out. :)

Edited April 16, 2012 by Mrs Mungo

[Alessandra]

I'm following this thread, and I'll throw out one more idea -- to supplement, not replace, what you are doing. Look into Jim Weiss/Greathall recordings -- classic stories told by a master. They are immensely well done, and they allow you to put time spent in a car, or anywhere else where you can't read yourself, to good use.

 

The best place to look through the titles is the Greathall website, but the easiest way to buy them, IMO, is as Amazon downloads.

[mamajag]

Thanks again. Picking up lots of great suggestions. Most of these boil down to the WWE and FLL curriculum being either not well designed or just not right for my kids where they are at now.

 

I think the majority of it is that your children have never been asked to do narration. It's not the design of the curriculum for everything to be easy for them. It's simply not. There is supposed to be struggle, and repetitive modeling of proper language so that it seeps into their minds. This is not a sprint but a marathon to your children becoming skilled writers. This takes time, energy, and patience, and yes you will do the heavy lifting in the beginning levels. The teacher's manual will explain this as does the excellent audio lecture on teaching writing.

 

I almost chucked FLL and WWE for the same reason. I thought I understood the point of the curriculum, but I didn't. I thought I should be producing a writer with the effort required to use an Easy Bake oven. I was certain there was something better out there. The audio lecture stopped me. My girls, frozen as they were, were exactly where they were supposed to be in WWE 1. There was nothing unexpected in their struggle. It was after that lecture that I decided to give them 2 more months in FLL and WWE. I started seeing development. Those first, halting words were music to my ears though they were clumsy. My girls needed guidance in how to get the words in their heads to come out of their mouths…in front of an audience, no less! This curriculum is supposed to be a slow build.

 

I have been reading picture books and fun stuff with them. I have never read a classic book to them before.

 

Yet another new experience, and a completely different type of language for them to process. It's a challenge. It's mental exercise. It's good for them. :)

 

In answer to other questions: mostly it is the unusual language and length of the passages which seem too difficult to follow. I don't think it is a learning disability, but it could be a public school "acquired disability."

 

All the more reason to stick it out and get them used to reading quality literature. :) What I did with my daughters is read it through the first time just to get familiar with the vocabulary and such. That way, they could focus on understanding the words. We would discuss a little of what happened and then, once they understood the vocabulary, we would re-read the selection so that they could focus on understanding the story arc.

 

Still, I have to answer that yes, reading the passages in the WWE level 1, excepting the first couple of them, my "gifted" child cannot follow it. Nor, with an average length Aesop can she follow it. Her twin brother, the same. It does not seem strange to me that they cannot follow it, nor can I imagine any of their friends being able to either. I have trouble imagining that my situation here is terribly unique.

 

A child that has grown up on such stories will not find it difficult. However, I think you are confusing their ability to output their understanding with actually not understanding the story. Reading comprehension and narration are completely different skills, and it is entirely possible to understand but not be able to put that understanding in words.

 

I agree wholeheartedly that this is a great skill to impart ASAP, and I am very motivated to do so. However, I feel I chucked a big chunk of money away here, getting too motivated, when it was really the principle of it and not the curriculum I should have been excited about. I can't really force my kids through these lessons when they are not ready.

 

I think that your kids are ready. They just need patience and modeling of what you are expecting. Kids don't like to be wrong, and they don't like it when the answer isn't clearly spelled out especially if they've already been indoctrinated into the Scantron cult. They like to parrot an exact right answer. Narration isn't that. Narration that simply asks "what is one thing you remember" has no best answer. That is what most kids I tutor have an issue with, and even SWB has said her college freshmen sometimes come to her wanting to know what the "right" thing is to write for their paper when it's supposed to be their interpretation. They've been taught that there is an answer that pleases the teacher most, and that is the answer they want to give.

 

Any sort of perfectionistic tendency in your children is going to make this process more difficult, but it is a tendency that needs to be broken sooner rather than later.

[Lucy the Valiant]

I have 8 year old twins, too.

 

Were I in your shoes, I'd back down on EVERYTHING else you're doing, and zero in on reading and math. For a month. For two months.

 

You can definitely make it enjoyable, but it has to also be challenging, incrementally so; and part of your personal reward is the startling progress they can and will make, once you've shown them the way to success. :) Use the skiing analogy - professional skiers don't go down bunny slopes for an entire weekend, know what I mean?

 

If they aren't capable of understanding and "holding" short stories in their minds yet, there's not much point in spending time on the other subjects, either. So flesh it out - let them act it out, make a Lego scene or character, use chalk, . . . do whatever it takes to get that comprehension up. With average to above-average intelligence, it won't take long.

[Mrs Mungo]

When I'm done answering specific questions or explaining something, I usually go back and reread the relevant sentence or passage so it can be heard in a new light.

 

And if you keep on this path? You will *always* be doing this. I lead literature discussion with my dd and her friend. Last week they were to read the prologue of The Canterbury Tales. One of the exercises I gave them was to list the pilgrims, their main characteristics and whether or not they thought that Chaucer liked them. They got several wrong due to skimming. :D For example, they picked up religious, the hair like flax and "kind and gentle" comments for the Pardoner. I had to make them go back and read aloud the bit where his hair drips down his back and looks like rat-tails, the bit where he cheats country bumpkins and so forth. it took them reading much of that part out loud before they realized that the "kind and gentle" comment was sarcastic. We actually broke down the Pardoner early on in our discussion, because it was then easier for them to understand the rest of it.

[funschooler5]

First, most people following TWTM start narration using Story of the World and in the later parts of First Language Lessons. The activity guide for SOTW contains questions to ask the kids. You help them put together a narration paragraph based upon their answers (and you write it down for them). The narration exercises in FLL work much the same way.

 

If you follow all of the recommendations in TWTM, then by the time kids start WWE in third grade (which is the grade TWTM recommends you begin a writing program) they have 2 years worth of experience with guided narration. You might be better off starting with First Language Lessons.

 

One thing that is not clear from the book(s)? Susan recommends a great deal of hand-holding and walking the kids through it, especially when it is new to them. There are blogs, articles and videos that help explain this better on the well trained mind site: http://www.welltrainedmind.com/. Peace Hill Press recently held a writing conference that they videoed and is due to be released on DVD soon. It should be a big help once it comes out. :)

 

:iagree:

 

It takes a lot of hand-holding at first. For my son, it was years before he could do a narration on his own (without me prompting him with questions before every single sentence). This was with Story of the World, as he was so overwhelmed by narrations we scrapped FLL. But now, he is able to complete Writing With Skill (the upper level of WWE) narrations with no problems. I'm actually amazed at how well he can read a book and narrate it back to me. This is a kid with ADHD and had major issues concentrating. It was a long process, but we kept at it, and I'm very pleased with the results.

 

My oldest DD went through FLL, SOTW, and is also doing WWS. She's never really had a problem with narrations. I think if she did, though, and one of us was getting really frustrated, I probably would have backed off on one of the programs until she got the hang of it.

[lea1]

A couple of other tips about reading aloud that has helped my two sons a lot.

 

One is that, I try my best to use different voices for the different characters. I have found that in some books it doesn't really make that much of a difference but in others it really makes the story. Some books are written where it is just harder to tell who might be talking (Winnie-the-Pooh) than others.

 

Another is to find some books on CD that they really love and listen to them over and over. We have several but Peter Pan was our favorite for at least a year and we listened to it many times. We kept it in our car CD player and we were doing a lot of driving because we were building a house and we would drive up to it almost daily. We have very special memories of Peter Pan and also Little House in the Big Woods and we have private family jokes about different things in each.

 

One of my sons particularly loves listening to books on CD's as he is falling asleep at night. I think he has memorized whole chapters in Little House in the Big Woods and right now his favorite is one of Jim Weiss' readings of Tall Tales (Paul Bunyan and others). He is listening to it tonight as he falls asleep.

 

One last thing is that if you do quiet time with your girls, that is also another time where you can encourage them to listen to a book on CD.

 

A previous poster mentioned Jim Trelease's book, which I loved and used a lot. I have also used booklists from Ambleside and Sonlight and, of course, my first goto place for my booklists has always been the Well Trained Mind.

 

Start with books that are younger for them but are really sweet, like maybe Peter Rabbit, where they start using wonderful old language. My sons were using the word 'rubbish' for trash when they were three because of some of these wonderful old books.:001_smile:

 

Have fun and enjoy the stories. This is definitely one of my favorite things about homeschooling...getting to read all of the wonderful old classics that I missed when I was growing up in the public school system.:001_smile: