Atheists/Christmas ~ curious

[LeslieAnneLevine]

Since I wrote yada, yada. I feel compelled to say our non- Christian family version of Xmas ;) does not participate in The Airing of Grievances. That's just too mean, even if funny.

 

 

But I've got a lot of problems with these people!

[Desert Rat]

Cowgirl, I didn't take offense at all. It's okay that you feel sad for me. I said I was sad for me, too. I was raised by a wonderful Christian woman who tries her best every single day and by a Methodist minister who lives his love of Christ in his actions every day. They are my heroes. They are the people I wanted to be when I grew up and the people I try to do right by. But, I just can't believe in the Christian way of life. This is not to say that I don't believe in Christ as a man and a prophet and a forward thinking man. It's just well.....it's a long drawn out story.

It's okay to be sad that other people don't believe what you love. It's okay to say it out loud. You are perfectly entitled to your emotions. I didn't feel you were patronizing or condescending.

[HSMom2One]

I could flip the question around and ask you this: why muddle your religious holiday with non-Christian trappings like Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny? Of course some Christians do strongly object to these things. But that's pretty unusual. Most embrace the secular symbols too.

 

This is a very assuming statement. It is not unusual at all for modern day Christians to object to the Easter Bunny and Santa Claus. Not unusual in the least! The same people of faith also object to the celebration of Halloween by the way. There definitely is a movement within the Christian community to move away from these pagan practices.

 

Although many Christian families include Santa as an element of Christmas festivities (and teach their children about St. Nickolas and his contribution to the early church), Santa and the gifts are not the main focus.

 

Lucinda

[Momof3littles]

Although many Christian families include Santa as an element of Christmas festivities (and teach their children about St. Nickolas and his contribution to the early church), Santa and the gifts are not the main focus.

 

Lucinda

 

As evident in many of the earlier responses to this thread, many of those who choose to celebrate secularly, or celebrate Yule/Solstice as pagans, etc. don't consider Santa/gifts to be the primary focus of their celebration either. :confused:

 

My kids enjoy the build up to the holiday. THe crafting, the cooking, the family togetherness (immediate and extended family), the shopping for Toys for Tots and the local food pantry, the plotting of gifts to make for one another, the music, the activities we do that time of year like making an event out of picking out our tree or taking a walk to look at the lights. It brings us together in those long, dark, winter days. It brings us joy.

 

Again, just because someone doesn't celebrate it as a Christian holiday doesn't mean they don't have a bigger, larger, more encompassing focus than Santa and rampant consumerism.

[ondreeuh]

A while back I was reading a conversation and someone made a comment about how they didn't celebrate Christmas because they (and their family) were not Christians.

 

I thought to myself "ah" and kept reading - expecting to discover that they were [whatever] .. but as it turned out, they weren't of any other [whatever]. They were atheists - and THAT is where I had a moment of :001_huh:

 

Why? Because I really hadn't given much thought to that before… Christmas, as I know/knew it, is not just for Christians… I grew up mostly in an Atheist family and we always did Christmas - the whole tree, presents, Santa, family gatherings, fruitcake & eggnog, big Christmas thing. As a kid* I knew that "some people think it's that Jesus guy's birthday" but I didn't care because we didn't believe that - Christmas was just a fun time filled with presents and yummy stuff. :D

 

As an adult, I have celebrated Christmas as both a secular holiday AND a Christian holiday. This year… I'm not sure what we're doing. It's been an interesting year for me and I've let go of Christianity - that's a completely different thread though. /tangent

 

So now I'm curious…if you grew up in an atheist family - did you celebrate Christmas? If you are currently an Atheist - do you celebrate Christmas?

 

*i mean no disrespect with the "jesus guy" comment - that's how i thought as a kid. ;)

 

I've never met someone who didn't celebrate Christmas just because they were atheist. I can follow the logic, but it's such a secularized holiday that I think you'd have to really stretch to say that opening presents means you're celebrating Jesus.

[keptwoman]

This is a very assuming statement. It is not unusual at all for modern day Christians to object to the Easter Bunny and Santa Claus. Not unusual in the least! The same people of faith also object to the celebration of Halloween by the way. There definitely is a movement within the Christian community to move away from these pagan practices.

Lucinda

I think that's kind of the point that jplain was trying to make, given that she was responding to someone who couldn't understand how non christians can celebrate Christmas. We can ALL celebrate Christmas in different ways, taking out that which does not sit comfortably. And Christians choosing to remove some secular aspects is no odder than secular people choosing to remove some of the Christian aspects. Neither of these choices invalidates people choosing to celebrate the holiday in some way as Christmas has both cultural and religious aspects to it.

[Night Elf]

We celebrate Christmas, but unless we are talking to extended family or other people who might be offended at our atheism, we usually call it Hogswatch :D My 11 year old who just started reading Terry Pratchett this year thinks this is the COOLEST thing EVAR.

 

The movie is pretty good too! We watch even when it's not Hogswatch!

[Night Elf]

As evident in many of the earlier responses to this thread, many of those who choose to celebrate secularly, or celebrate Yule/Solstice as pagans, etc. don't consider Santa/gifts to be the primary focus of their celebration either. :confused:

 

She might be referring to my post where I talked about the more presents I could put under the tree, the happier I was. But it's a darn shame that because that is MY personal way of thinking, that idea is being attributed to everyone who celebrates Christmas in a secular way. Very bad conclusions.

[Momof3littles]

She might be referring to my post where I talked about the more presents I could put under the tree, the happier I was. But it's a darn shame that because that is MY personal way of thinking, that idea is being attributed to everyone who celebrates Christmas in a secular way. Very bad conclusions.

Okay, I can see that. Thanks for setting me straight :D Sorry if I misunderstood her intent. I am genuinely curious if she believes that non-Christians who celebrate Christmas are automatically Santa and gift-centric :001_huh:

[kalanamak]

So now I'm curious…if you grew up in an atheist family - did you celebrate Christmas? If you are currently an Atheist - do you celebrate Christmas?

 

We grew up having a completely secular Xmas. It was beautiful and fun and the food was terrific. I like the music. As an adult I never did Xmas, until kiddo was 2 and old enough to enjoy it. Now we do Christmas, for the nice smell and the food and the prezzies.

[Lady Florida.]

Genuinely curious about this phenomenon of non Christians celebrating Christian holidays..do non-Christians who celebrate Christmas also celebrate the Jewish holidays too..ya' know, in a secular way?

 

Just wondering why this trend only seems to happen with Christian holidays. Is there just more respect for the holidays/sacred days of other religions? I wonder if my Jewish friends would be offended if I decided to celebrate Hanukkah this year, you know..just cuz'...don't worry...I'm going to cut out all of the religious-y stuff of the holiday and just put up lots of blue and white lights..maybe I'll keep the candles cuz' they're pretty and then we're going to start a new tradition of eating different kinds of fondue each night for eight nights.

 

I know many non-religious Jews who celebrate their holidays in a secular manner. They follow many of the traditions, but without the religious aspects. I don't see that as being any different than celebrating Christmas in a secular manner. My Jewish friends wouldn't be insulted if I attempted to celebrate some of their holidays, though they might consider it a bit odd. Some of them celebrate the secular aspects of Christmas, many do not.

 

Christians co-opted a pagan celebration and even renamed it. So while many lament about how people aren't keeping Christ in Christmas, he really wasn't part of it to begin with.

 

I see nothing disrespectful about spending time with family and friends, giving gifts, enjoying good food, and decorating a tree. Those who wish to celebrate the birth of one of their gods (even though he wasn't born in December) are free to do so. The rest of us are also free to enjoy the secular traditions of the season.

 

FWIW, I was born and raised Catholic, dh was Methodist. Neither of our families were particularly devout. We grew up celebrating mostly the secular aspects even before we became atheists.

[JadeOrchidSong]

Cowgirl, I didn't take offense at all. It's okay that you feel sad for me. I said I was sad for me, too. I was raised by a wonderful Christian woman who tries her best every single day and by a Methodist minister who lives his love of Christ in his actions every day. They are my heroes. They are the people I wanted to be when I grew up and the people I try to do right by. But, I just can't believe in the Christian way of life. This is not to say that I don't believe in Christ as a man and a prophet and a forward thinking man. It's just well.....it's a long drawn out story.

It's okay to be sad that other people don't believe what you love. It's okay to say it out loud. You are perfectly entitled to your emotions. I didn't feel you were patronizing or condescending.

 

My heart warms at these kind words of yours. I hope Cowgirl sees what you wrote. I do feel great joy when I sing those songs because there is truth, hope, life, joy, peace, and most of all, love in them about the Creator who made us and gave us breath. I love this song very much, "I Have a Maker". It is so comforting!

[elizabeth]

Genuinely curious about this phenomenon of non Christians celebrating Christian holidays..do non-Christians who celebrate Christmas also celebrate the Jewish holidays too..ya' know, in a secular way?

 

Just wondering why this trend only seems to happen with Christian holidays. Is there just more respect for the holidays/sacred days of other religions? I wonder if my Jewish friends would be offended if I decided to celebrate Hanukkah this year, you know..just cuz'...don't worry...I'm going to cut out all of the religious-y stuff of the holiday and just put up lots of blue and white lights..maybe I'll keep the candles cuz' they're pretty and then we're going to start a new tradition of eating different kinds of fondue each night for eight nights.

 

Jesus Christ was likely not born in December . Pope Julius in the mid 300's BCE decreed it so for the ties to other celebrations among the pagan(non Xn)community in hope that it would make conversion more likely. Here are some of the other occasions notably Saturnalia that brought about the "dating" of the birth of Jesus. http://www.religioustolerance.org/winter_solstice.htm My point is that Christmas is most certainly not anymore "Christian" in history than a plethora of other dates. This trend that you allege exists only in the mind of those who wish to see an enemy in every corner. However if you think the US is or should become a christian nation be certain that others including me will fight you every step of the way.

[Blessedchaos]

I grew up with atheist parents and we celebrated Christmas, but my grandparents were religious. Now my grandfather is still alive (and still religious) and we still celebrate as an extended family. Dh grew up as a non-practicing Buddhist and we are both agnostic now, yet we host the holidays at our home. For us it isn't about religion, but rather a season for giving and celebrating family.

[Ipsey]

A while back I was reading a conversation and someone made a comment about how they didn't celebrate Christmas because they (and their family) were not Christians.

 

I thought to myself "ah" and kept reading - expecting to discover that they were [whatever] .. but as it turned out, they weren't of any other [whatever]. They were atheists - and THAT is where I had a moment of :001_huh:

 

Why? Because I really hadn't given much thought to that before… Christmas, as I know/knew it, is not just for Christians… I grew up mostly in an Atheist family and we always did Christmas - the whole tree, presents, Santa, family gatherings, fruitcake & eggnog, big Christmas thing. As a kid* I knew that "some people think it's that Jesus guy's birthday" but I didn't care because we didn't believe that - Christmas was just a fun time filled with presents and yummy stuff. :D

 

As an adult, I have celebrated Christmas as both a secular holiday AND a Christian holiday. This year… I'm not sure what we're doing. It's been an interesting year for me and I've let go of Christianity - that's a completely different thread though. /tangent

 

So now I'm curious…if you grew up in an atheist family - did you celebrate Christmas? If you are currently an Atheist - do you celebrate Christmas?

 

*i mean no disrespect with the "jesus guy" comment - that's how i thought as a kid. ;)

 

I haven't read the rest of the posts yet, but I intend to do so after I share.

 

For my husband and I, we grew up Christian, and were Christian for the first 10 years of our marriage. We raised our children as Christians during that time.

 

Now, as atheists, we still maintain the traditions we did as Christians, mostly. We'll still share the Christmas story with the kids, and probably go to a church service, but we do that as a learning experience, to explain why Christmas is a holiday. We'll also explain other holidays that occur around the time of Christmas, and explain why dh and I like Christmas and celebrate it, even though we don't believe in God/Jesus, etc.

 

I'd love to develop our own rituals around the pagan holiday of the year, but that doesn't have the same feeling for us. Even if everyone isn't celebrating Jesus, the Christmas season is one where people are all feeling (or trying to feel) more generous and loving to one another. It's a cultural, social coming together. Sharing some of these rituals, and an outward manifestations of love and peace and goodwill are meaningful, even to those who don't worship Jesus.

 

Christmas is largely a secular celebration. In that way, I don't feel I'm co-oping a certain religion, really. Christianity is embraced, and expected, mostly in America, and so I'm acknowledging the spirit of it, and the traditions in a way that makes our lives happier, and allow us to enjoy our fellow people.

[KidsHappen]

Genuinely curious about this phenomenon of non Christians celebrating Christian holidays..do non-Christians who celebrate Christmas also celebrate the Jewish holidays too..ya' know, in a secular way?

 

Just wondering why this trend only seems to happen with Christian holidays. Is there just more respect for the holidays/sacred days of other religions? I wonder if my Jewish friends would be offended if I decided to celebrate Hanukkah this year, you know..just cuz'...don't worry...I'm going to cut out all of the religious-y stuff of the holiday and just put up lots of blue and white lights..maybe I'll keep the candles cuz' they're pretty and then we're going to start a new tradition of eating different kinds of fondue each night for eight nights.

 

Is it that time of year already? Christmas is not a Christian holiday. Christians took a pagan holiday, inserted Jesus into the holiday and claimed it as their own. There is nothing faintly Christian about the original winter holiday. It was the Christians who put Christ in Christmas but Jesus is not the reason for the season. The turning of the Earth is the reason for the season.

 

At this point many Pagans have reclaimed the winter holiday, many Christians have stopped celebrating it due to it's Pagan roots and many secular/agnostic/atheist people have started celebrating it for entirely different reasons. No one owns Christmas and everyone is free to celebrate it as they see fit.

 

The whole naming of the celebrations presents an entirely different problem. I do admit that I would like to see a more universally agreed upon name for the holiday. For humorous reasons, I personally like Festivus but on a more serious note we prefer to refer to it as the winter seasonal celebrations. However, I will respond in kind to whatever greetings I receive and to make myself understood I for the most part call it Christmas simply because that is how it is traditionally labled and referred to in our country.

 

Oh and in case it is not obvious at this point, I do not belong to any major religion nor do I celebrate any religious holidays. I do celebrate all traditional cultural holidays in America. The Fourth of July, Halloween, Thanksgiving and New Years Eve are all celebrating equally. For us there is nothing special about Christmas or Easter that sets them apart from other holidays.

[Mom-ninja.]

Singing in my head, "It's beginning to look a lot like Christmas...."

 

:lol: Holiday season has arrived at the Hive!

 

I've decided the holiday season is not official until this debate shows up here every year. ;)

[KidsHappen]

(emphasis mine) :crying:

 

 

 

(again, emphasis mine) While I love and respect my atheists friends, my heart truly aches that they do not experience the same joy I feel in loving and celebrating Jesus.

 

I would assume that your atheist friends don't love or celebrate Jesus at all much less feel joy at doing so. My guess is that they do find joy in other things though and do not feel that they are missing out on the joy you are feeling about this.

[oldskool]

Singing in my head, "It's beginning to look a lot like Christmas...."

 

:lol: Holiday season has arrived at the Hive!

 

I've decided the holiday season is not official until this debate shows up here every year. ;)

 

:lol:

 

 

Lesley

[Skadi]

We're atheists and we celebrate it. But we are extremely opposed to the idea of Santa Claus because we want to be honest with our children in all things.

 

We also don't focus much on the gifts. We read Charles Dickens' A Christmas Carol aloud every year, bake and craft, talk about the solstice, and try to encourage spontaneous acts of generosity. We also do "required" acts of kindness as a family like shoveling an elderly neighbor's driveway, helping clean/cook/babysit for a family with a new baby, etc.

[melissel]

Singing in my head, "It's beginning to look a lot like Christmas...."

 

:lol: Holiday season has arrived at the Hive!

 

I've decided the holiday season is not official until this debate shows up here every year. ;)

 

:lol: It's either this one or the frustration with people saying Happy Holidays instead of Merry Christmas! I was so surprised that there was no annual Halloween debate this year though.

[Julie Smith]

:lol: It's either this one or the frustration with people saying Happy Holidays instead of Merry Christmas! I was so surprised that there was no annual Halloween debate this year though.

 

I think the Jesusween thread made up for the lack of Halloween debate. Perhaps from now on the board will take turns, one year Halloween debate, the next discussion about Jesusween.

[Jennifer3141]

Personally I really like the airing of grievances part. :D

 

 

Ok now, I stink at the airing of grievances because I can never remember them. DH on the other hand can remember every annoying thing I've done over the past 16 years. Once I forgive, it's forgotten.

 

However, in our home the feats of strength have become, "Attack Dad!" time and I love that.

My kids are finally big enough that they can do some damage. :lol:

[Jennifer3141]

I think the Jesusween thread made up for the lack of Halloween debate. Perhaps from now on the board will take turns, one year Halloween debate, the next discussion about Jesusween.

 

I really did miss the, "Halloween is a celebration of the devil!" thread this year. It made Halloween seem to come so much faster. :lol:

[Mom-ninja.]

I kept waiting for the Halloween debate, and too was surprised it did not surface.

[melissel]

I think the Jesusween thread made up for the lack of Halloween debate. Perhaps from now on the board will take turns, one year Halloween debate, the next discussion about Jesusween.

 

Oh. My. Word. :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

 

How did I miss that thread?! Thank you so much for pointing me in that direction. I really needed a good laugh today!

[8circles]

Cowgirl, I didn't take offense at all. It's okay that you feel sad for me. I said I was sad for me, too. I was raised by a wonderful Christian woman who tries her best every single day and by a Methodist minister who lives his love of Christ in his actions every day. They are my heroes. They are the people I wanted to be when I grew up and the people I try to do right by. But, I just can't believe in the Christian way of life. This is not to say that I don't believe in Christ as a man and a prophet and a forward thinking man. It's just well.....it's a long drawn out story.

It's okay to be sad that other people don't believe what you love. It's okay to say it out loud. You are perfectly entitled to your emotions. I didn't feel you were patronizing or condescending.

 

 

What a gracious response. You weren't responding to me but I appreciate your kindness. :)

[LibraryLover]

But I've got a lot of problems with these people!

 

:D I hear that. lol

[mommyrooch]

Cowgirl, I didn't take offense at all. It's okay that you feel sad for me. I said I was sad for me, too. I was raised by a wonderful Christian woman who tries her best every single day and by a Methodist minister who lives his love of Christ in his actions every day. They are my heroes. They are the people I wanted to be when I grew up and the people I try to do right by. But, I just can't believe in the Christian way of life. This is not to say that I don't believe in Christ as a man and a prophet and a forward thinking man. It's just well.....it's a long drawn out story.

It's okay to be sad that other people don't believe what you love. It's okay to say it out loud. You are perfectly entitled to your emotions. I didn't feel you were patronizing or condescending.

 

Kalah, I just had to say that I thought this was so kind of you. Cowgirl took some heat for her comment to you and I'm sure that it meant a lot to her to hear that you understood her reason for posting to you. Thanks for taking the time to do that. :grouphug:

[Wayfaring Stranger]

Christians took a pagan holiday, inserted Jesus into the holiday and claimed it as their own.

 

"the pagan festival of the “Birth of the Unconquered Son†instituted by the Roman Emperor Aurelian on 25 December 274, was almost certainly an attempt to create a pagan alternative to a date that was already of some significance to Roman Christians. Thus the “pagan origins of Christmas†is a myth without historical substance." William J. Tighe, Calculating Christmas

 

 

http://touchstonemag.com/archives/article.php?id=16-10-012-v

[jplain]

"the pagan festival of the “Birth of the Unconquered Son” instituted by the Roman Emperor Aurelian on 25 December 274, was almost certainly an attempt to create a pagan alternative to a date that was already of some significance to Roman Christians. Thus the “pagan origins of Christmas” is a myth without historical substance." William J. Tighe, Calculating Christmas

 

 

http://touchstonemag.com/archives/article.php?id=16-10-012v

That seems a little random. I don't believe anyone here has mentioned the festival you're referring to. I've never heard of it. :confused:

 

Non-Christian religious celebrations of winter and the solstice long pre-date the first Christmas. See links earlier in the thread. I don't think it's up for argument . . .

[SailorMom]

You could be right. Maybe they don't care. Or perhaps they choose not to share their opinions about your faith because they feel it would be inappropriate or disrespectful to do so.

 

 

I actually have some pretty strong feelings about Christianity gettting in the way of a real relationship with God, as strongly as Christians feel the opposite - but I rarely bring this up because I don't think any Christians would appreciate it much, and I'm not out to try and convert anyone.

 

As far as the Christmas Carol thing- I think what was in the heart of someone writing those carols was universal love of God and humanity. I guess I assume that love of Jesus is tied in to that somehow.

[Wheres Toto]

nm

Edited November 4, 2011 by dottieanna29
too snarky

[Jennifer3141]

That seems a little random. I don't believe anyone here has mentioned the festival you're referring to. I've never heard of it. :confused:

 

Non-Christian religious celebrations of winter and the solstice long pre-date the first Christmas. See links earlier in the thread. I don't think it's up for argument . . .

 

It's not up for debate within the scholarly community. :glare:

[Mergath]

"the pagan festival of the “Birth of the Unconquered Son” instituted by the Roman Emperor Aurelian on 25 December 274, was almost certainly an attempt to create a pagan alternative to a date that was already of some significance to Roman Christians. Thus the “pagan origins of Christmas” is a myth without historical substance." William J. Tighe, Calculating Christmas

 

 

http://touchstonemag.com/archives/article.php?id=16-10-012-v

 

I'm sure if you refer specifically to only the twenty-fifth and do some creative fact-twisting, you could make the argument that Christmas has always been a Christian holiday. However, nearly every culture in the world has had some kind of ritual or holiday recognizing the winter solstice. Even Stonehenge is lined up with the sun on the solstice. And almost all of the customs we use to celebrate Christmas or Yule come from those pagan rituals. The bible actually seems to explicitly forbid Christmas trees in Jeremiah 10, according to some Christians.

 

Honestly, I don't care who celebrates Christmas and what they call it, as long as they don't have a hissy fit when my family celebrates Yule in a more Pagan manner. The next time someone goes off on me for not saying "Merry Christmas," though, I am going to flip my sh**. Just sayin.

Edited November 6, 2011 by Mergath

[Mergath]

It's not up for debate within the scholarly community. :glare:

 

You mean that bastion of liberal, godless heathens? :D:tongue_smilie:

[MyFourSons]

It's not up for debate within the scholarly community. :glare:

It's also not realy up for debate among anyone who truly knows church history, as incorporating pagan rituals and holidays into the Christian fold was a great way to gain converts. It was a form of assimilation, and I don't know why it bothers certain Protestants.

 

Celebrating Jesus' birth on or around the darkest day of the year is a deeply symbolic move, since you are celebrating the incarnation. Jesus is "the light of the world," and to celebrate that light penetrating the darkness and coming into the world during the darkest time we experience would not be lost on the believers that developed this tradition, even though it is lost on most people today.

[chiguirre]

"the pagan festival of the “Birth of the Unconquered Son†instituted by the Roman Emperor Aurelian on 25 December 274, was almost certainly an attempt to create a pagan alternative to a date that was already of some significance to Roman Christians. Thus the “pagan origins of Christmas†is a myth without historical substance." William J. Tighe, Calculating Christmas

 

 

http://touchstonemag.com/archives/article.php?id=16-10-012-v

 

Why are they translating Sol as son instead of sun? I thought that was just a typo until I went to the article, but it's not and they offer no explanation for their variant translation.

[elizabeth]

You mean that bastion of liberal, godless heathens? :D:tongue_smilie:

 

I think they meant the bastion of liberal godless pagans. Heathenry is a whole other kettle of fish. :lol: Many of whom I count as my friends.

[LibraryLover]

Now, now, don't go around acting like understanding the roots of western civilization and the development of a world religion is important.

 

This is a classical board and we don't need your kind stirring up trouble.

 

It's also not realy up for debate among anyone who truly knows church history, as incorporating pagan rituals and holidays into the Christian fold was a great way to gain converts. It was a form of assimilation, and I don't know why it bothers certain Protestants.

 

Celebrating Jesus' birth on or around the darkest day of the year is a deeply symbolic move, since you are celebrating the incarnation. Jesus is "the light of the world," and to celebrate that light penetrating the darkness and coming into the world during the darkest time we experience would not be lost on the believers that developed this tradition, even though it is lost on most people today.

Edited November 5, 2011 by LibraryLover

[Wayfaring Stranger]

I don't believe anyone here has mentioned the festival you're referring to. I've never heard of it. :confused:

 

Non-Christian religious celebrations of winter and the solstice long pre-date the first Christmas. See links earlier in the thread. I don't think it's up for argument . . .

 

The links earlier in the thread mention the"Birthday of the Unconquered Sun" (see reply #117 follow the link and look under Ancient Rome)

 

Just because a culture has a winter solstice holiday does not mean every culture that comes later stole the holiday from the first one.

 

I'm sure if you refer specifically to only the twenty-fifth and do some creative fact-twisting, you could make the argument that Christmas has always been a Christian holiday.

 

The article is referring to "how Christians came to celebrate Christmas when they do". What facts have been twisted?

 

Why are they translating Sol as son instead of sun? I thought that was just a typo until I went to the article, but it's not and they offer no explanation for their variant translation.

 

I think it is a typo. Later in the article it is written with a "u".

[Jennifer3141]

Now, now, don't go around acting like understanding the roots of western civilization and the development of a world religion is important.

 

This is a classical board and we don't need your kind stirring up trouble.

 

:lol::lol::lol:

 

Thank you! You said it without getting me banned because I could not fathom how someone who actively believed in classical education enough that they would register and post here could possibly believe otherwise.

[UnsinkableKristen]

That said, everyone who read this board has had the good news bought to their attention. You witnessing types really don't need to worry about shirking your duty.

 

Rosie

 

It's curious the phenomenon of Christians celebrating a pagan holiday, ya'know, in a Christian way. ;)

 

Think of it like a family tree. The grandparent generation was the original pagan stuff. Eventually a descendant celebration was formed, the Christian Christmas. They're the same, but not the same, in the same way you aren't your mother. Eventually the Christian Christmas accidentally birthed a descendant and that is the secular Christmas. One might understand how an illegitimate child might not be welcomed, but obviously not everyone feels that way. ;)

 

So now we have two celebrations called the same thing happening on the same day, so no wonder people get uptight. Really, though, it's like complaining at you for not being your mother. Should you do the right thing and bow out of personhood? Of course not! The complainers will just have to deal. You're not your mum, no matter how they might want you to be and you are as valid a person as any.

 

When the kids are old enough, the Christian Christmas will get the same notice everyone else's religious occasions get because that's how I'm planning our religious ed class. :)

 

Rosie

 

(No offense to anyone or their mothers. :tongue_smilie:)

 

 

Rosie, I just need to let you know that you are delightful. Absolutely hilarious and I adore pretty much everything you write.

 

 

The next time someone goes off on me for not saying "Merry Christmas," though, I am going to flip my sh**. Just sayin.

 

Also, I just spit out my drink laughing at this. So awesome. I'm a relatively conservative Christian and completely agree with you.

[nd293]

If you are currently an Atheist - do you celebrate Christmas?

 

Yes, in a modified way. "Celebrating Christmas" is partly about honouring family traditions. At the same time, I need to honour my beliefs, and recently we have done that by including a focus on the solstice (as representation of seasonal change, not any particular religion) - dh takes a day off work, and we spend the day outdoors, having a picnic (summer solstice for us). The kids get small gifts each day from the solstice through to Christmas. This past year we caught the train into town on the solstice and watched the city's public nativity play. Honouring the story behind Christmas also felt right, and we will repeat that this year. It's a process of working out what works for us.

[FiveOaksAcademy]

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Edited November 5, 2011 by FiveOaksAcademy

[jplain]

Oh bother. I have no idea why I confused those two poster names. :blushing: Must be losing my mind.

My apologies to MyFourSons. And Melissel, thank you for the correction (in the post following this one). :)

 

So that my post makes a little more sense, I've edited to leave only my question for FatherofPearl.

 

"the pagan festival of the “Birth of the Unconquered Son [sic]” instituted by the Roman Emperor Aurelian on 25 December 274, was almost certainly an attempt to create a pagan alternative to a date that was already of some significance to Roman Christians. Thus the “pagan origins of Christmas” is a myth without historical substance." William J. Tighe, Calculating Christmas

This link and this one, along with others too numerous to list, disagree with yours. The consensus is that December 25 was not declared to be Christ's birth until the 4th century. What makes you believe that Dec 25 was celebrated as Christmas prior the 4th century? As far as I can tell, no evidence exists to support Tighe's version of church history. Edited November 5, 2011 by jplain

[melissel]

Deleted, because the problem was solved :D

Edited November 5, 2011 by melissel

[Wayfaring Stranger]

 

This link and this one, along with others too numerous to list, disagree with yours. The consensus is that December 25 was not declared to be Christ's birth until the 4th century. What makes you believe that Dec 25 was celebrated as Christmas prior the 4th century? As far as I can tell, no evidence exists to support Tighe's version of church history.

 

I do not see the disagreement. The second theory on your second link (McGowen's article) is exactly what Tighe is talking about. McGowen's article makes an even better case for this theory, noting that it is the older theory and the one that the people in the 4th century (and later) accepted. Not until the 12th century did anyone suggest that the dating of Christmas was taken from the pagans. That article even says "we don't have evidence of Christians adopting pagan festivals in the third century, at which point dates for Christmas were established." This is why I agree with Tighe when he says "the 'pagan origin of Christmas' is a myth without historical substance."

[jplain]

The second theory on your second link (McGowen's article) is exactly what Tighe is talking about. McGowen's article makes an even better case for this theory, noting that it is the older theory and the one that the people in the 4th century (and later) accepted.

Okay, I'm seeing the part you're referring to now.

LOL, so now I'll examine the 2nd theory presented in my own link. :D

The December 25 feast seems to have existed before 312—before Constantine and his conversion, at least. As we have seen, the Donatist Christians in North Africa seem to have know it from before that time.

But where's the evidence for this? There's no footnote here. The following is the "as we have seen" part referred to above. No footnote there either.

In about 400 C.E., Augustine of Hippo mentions a local dissident Christian group, the Donatists, who apparently kept Christmas festivals on December 25, but refused to celebrate the Epiphany on January 6, regarding it as an innovation. Since the Donatist group only emerged during the persecution under Diocletian in 312 C.E. and then remained stubbornly attached to the practices of that moment in time, they seem to represent an older North African Christian tradition.

So Augustine of Hippo wrote that the Donatists were celebrating a Dec 25 Christmas in 400 CE. I understand the author's argument that this group may represent a time capsule of earlier Christian practices. I'm not qualified to evaluate the strength of that assertion. However, without any other corroborating evidence, I remain unconvinced. The fact that the Donatists were celebrating Dec 25 in 400 CE is not proof that they were celebrating Christmas on the same date more than 80 years earlier, or if you believe Tighe, that all Christians were celebrating it on that date more than 125 years earlier.

 

Theory 2 seems too speculative to take seriously. Though the author may prefer theory 2, theory 1 seems to present a much stronger case for itself:

There is no mention of birth celebrations in the writings of early Christian writers such as Irenaeus (c. 130–200) or Tertullian (c. 160–225). Origen of Alexandria (c. 165–264) goes so far as to mock Roman celebrations of birth anniversaries, dismissing them as “pagan” practices—a strong indication that Jesus’ birth was not marked with similar festivities at that place and time.1 As far as we can tell, Christmas was not celebrated at all at this point."

Edited November 6, 2011 by jplain

[Jenny in Florida]

So now I'm curious…if you grew up in an atheist family - did you celebrate Christmas? If you are currently an Atheist - do you celebrate Christmas?

 

I grew up in an agnostic/athiest family. We did celebrate Christmas, and I grew up thinking of it as a cultural holiday, rather than a religious one. I did know the nativity story, and we had some decorations that evoked that theme. In fact, one of my favorite things to do when I was a kid was to set up the nativity scene. However, I more or less considered it a good story, not something sacred.

 

I no longer consider myself an athiest. I'm in the zone between agnostic and believer of something, but I don't have a word for what I am. Mostly, I don't go around worrying about it. But, whatever I might be called, I'm absolutely not a Christian.

 

As an adult, I've struggled a bit with Christmas. I'm no longer comfortable with the "just a story" approach, but as a non-Christian, I have trouble reconciling our cultural celebration with the sacred story not my own.

 

Well, that was clear as mud, right?

 

The way I've finally resolved this (or at least made enough peace with it to get me through the season) is to work with my own interpretation of the Christ story. I'm sure this will make the Christians here very uncomfortable, and I truly apologize for that. But I've come to appreciate Jesus in a very abstract, metaphorical way. And, for me, when I celebrate Christmas, I'm using the specific story of Jesus to connect with what for me are larger, more universal concepts.

 

I've done a fair amount of research into world religions and have found concepts and truths that resonate with me in all of them. At one point, I seriously considered converting to Judaism, and I still feel a strong pull in that direction. (I didn't go forward because it became clear that my husband and children would have found my choice problematic.) My kids know the Hanukkah story as well as the Christmas one, and we attend services at our church for Rosh Hashana and Yom Kippur. But, to be honest, we throw ourselves into Christmas more because it's easy to go with the flow.